Lindsay Lyons: In this episode, you'll be hearing from Jeanne Wolz. For reference, this episode was recorded on November 10th, 2021. So let me tell you a little bit about Jeanne. She's a former middle school teacher, department chair, school leader and college instructor and is the founder of the New Teacher Masterminds, a transformational virtual PLC network that connects and powers and provides wraparound support for new teachers across the country. As a new teacher herself, she won the Outstanding Beginning Teacher Award from the Illinois Association of Colleges for Teacher Education. Jeanne's Mission is to help new teachers thrive during their first years of teaching so they feel they can stay and grow in the profession for years to come. I'm so excited for you to hear from Jeanne, Let's dive into the episode.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

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If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher, excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Jeanne Wolz, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Jeanne Wolz: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited that you're here and I'd love to just get your thoughts on, you know, I just read your professional bio but I think sometimes there's like this element of professionalism to bios that you kind of missed the personal aspect or you know, you want to ground yourself in something other than like the list of things that we have accomplished. So, I love asking the question of, you know, how do you want to add to that formal intro and introduce yourself to our listeners?
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, I love that you're asking this question because I also agree, I'm the biggest creature than you are more than a teacher and more than your accomplishments.

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So I think just some more personal things about me. I love to travel. We're actually gonna go on this RV adventure this winter for a few months. And also that I am a mom of an almost two year old, which is crazy to think, but that takes up a lot of my brain most of the time as well,
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. And as a fellow traveler, I feel like that is an important distinction to make. Like there's something about travelers who are like, let's go do stuff, awesome. So as we think about, kind of your dream for education and we kind of laid the foundation for the episode around what education would look like, you know, if you could kind of create it. I love Dr. Bettina Loves' quote about freedom dreaming and she says there are dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so through that lens, thinking about the big dream you hold for the field of education, how would you describe that for our listeners?
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah. I think my dream for education is for every new teacher to experience their first few years as a cherished and important role in person and agent in education and equity and education.

00:03:38
And in order for that to happen for all schools to have induction programs for new teachers that are designed and sober to the challenges that all new teachers face, and are designed to keep their vision and their passion intact, which is so important and I just feel so often overlooked, but it doesn't need to be.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. That idea of keeping your vision and passion intact is, I think what is often the cause of people leaving the profession after 3-5 years, right? Like that almost happened to me just being in these different school systems that were not what I envisioned teaching to be, and did not give me the level of autonomy and support that I needed. And I almost quit teaching after three years and just completely tried to do professions.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, and that could have been solved very easily. Well, maybe not very easily, but it could have been solved and it's something I think we need to pay attention to if we want teachers to be staying in the profession.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely, and so I'm curious to know because oftentimes we don't solve that right? We don't do those things.

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So what are the ways that educational leaders maybe need to be thinking a little bit differently or even teachers need to be thinking a little bit differently and really shift their mindset around, you know, what those first few years of teaching look like and what supports for those teachers and their initial years look like?
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, so the first one and the biggest one, I think the most foundational one, and this is something that I say, to new teachers all the time, but now I'm really speaking to veteran teachers and building leaders, and that is tossing out this assumption that your first few years of teaching have to be miserable. Like if we're assuming that then what supports, like, what's the point of supporting new teachers? So instead of that, the mindset shift, I really want to challenge everyone listening to make, is how can we create the first few years or make the first few years of teaching the best years of a teacher's career, like how can we aim for that and just think about how much that shifts the conversation,

00:05:43
and the kinds of supports that we need to enact and the kinds of experiences we want to give our first, 2nd, 3rd year teachers in our buildings. So that's the biggest one and I have another one, but I don't know if you wanted to.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely, let's hear it.
Jeanne Wolz: So the second one, and it's kind of building off of this, is that teachers support needs to go beyond just best practice. We know with students if they are not in an emotionally stable state or if they're not getting their basic needs met that they can't learn. And it's the same thing with teachers and especially with new teachers. Your first few years teaching, you're going through challenges that are not just professionally challenging, but they are emotionally taxing and they are also, you're also going through a huge identity shift and I think if you've been a teacher, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a huge identity shift. It's almost, I actually think now being a new parent, it's very similar to becoming a new parent, like it's just a giant shift and you're coming up against a lot of challenges and so we need to be designing programs that take that into account, predict it and then provide some for teachers.


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Lindsay Lyons: I love that. Oh my gosh, not only the assumption the first one around assuming that the years are going to be miserable. I think that's really a powerful thing to shift away from, but also that idea that that identity shift is so real, whether you're new to the career as your first career or like a career changer or whatever it is. Seeing yourself as a teacher is a really interesting shift and I love that you likened it to parenthood as well. I think people appreciate that shift a bit more than they do that of a teacher and what it means to be a teacher.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so many people, usually teachers very often when they become a teacher, this is something they've been dreaming about or thinking about for a really long time. And so when they're starting teaching, they're trying to figure out, okay, when am I going to be a good teacher? Am I going to be good at this thing that I've dreamt of doing? Am I going to be this teacher that I've always wanted to be? And then two, is this for me? Like this is kind of their trial run. And so, yeah, I think it's just really important to think about it and I think to, when I'm thinking about identity shift, I'm also thinking about, like just speaking from my own experience, when I, when I became a teacher, I have been used to being a high achiever, good at things, organized, prepared. And now for the first time in my career, essentially had just been a student before that, but in my career I wasn't feeling organized. I was feeling chaos all the time, no matter how hard I worked. I was feeling like a failure.

00:08:28
I was feeling all these things, even if we're thinking about the equity piece, I had always thought of myself as a very accepting person. Of course not a racist. And all of a sudden I had students telling me I was a racist. I never ever experienced that before. And that happens many, many times for teachers. And so I mean across the board for new teachers. And so these are things that we all kind of know, I think are very common for new teachers to be going through. And since we all know them, I think we need to be, you know, thinking about them and how we're supporting new teachers.
Lindsay Lyons: So powerful that you just shared all of that. Thank you for speaking to your experience because I think so many people just resonated with all the things that you shared because it is real. And to avoid thinking about those things that we do know happened, right? It's just not a good way to support teachers. And so if people are listening thinking, okay, yeah, like I want to create the conditions for someone to feel really supported and like they're thriving at work and they know how to navigate that identity shift, what does that look like in terms of, you know, brave actions for educational leaders to take or even teachers themselves to take to really live into that dream you were describing.
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Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, so I'm gonna really highly paraphrase some research in teacher retention by Ingersoll. I think it's Richard Ingersoll, so I'm pretty sure that's, his, ingersoll definitely his last name. And he's done extensive research, I think over the last 30 years in what keeps teachers and buildings, what keeps them in the profession. And the things that he notices in terms of teacher induction programs, is the more elements of kind of best practice for induction programs that are, that exists in a program, the more likely teachers are to stay. So those elements are things like a mentor program, things like having professional development workshops, maybe having and forgetting the other one, there's one other one, professional development workshops, so instruction strong and structural coaching and the mentorship program. But the one thing that I always think about that really stands out to me that he lists that I very seldom see in schools and would have been amazing for myself as a new teacher and I know for so many new teachers that I work with that is a lightened workload.


00:10:51
I mean, again, this makes sense. Like when we say it a lot, it's like, well duh? We have new teachers that are expected to do everything a veteran teacher is doing and yet they are also learning the ropes, they're learning how to do this. I mean anytime you're learning anything, it's going to take longer. So like it makes sense why lightened workloads can be so powerful for new teachers in terms of keeping them in buildings and keeping them in the profession. So that's the first one, and I really, and I say that also right away because I know that's probably one that feels lofty because it messes with the magical master schedule. But I think it's something a conversation that needs to be had. And even if you are not a principal in your building, you, if you are working with the new teachers, I'm challenging you to talk to your administration, talked to higher administration about how can you make this happen for the new positions that you're hiring for, so that new teachers have the space to grow, to process all these things, to learn their skills to get all this support.


00:11:56
And I think also I'm spending so much time on this first one too, because in order to add the other things, I'm going to suggest teachers need to carve out and have space for those support programs. I've worked with amazing, amazing, supportive districts for new teachers that give them more things to do, more things to do, more things to do, but they don't take anything off those plates. So they're meeting with a mentor every single week, awesome! They're meeting with masterminds every single week, awesome! Like it's all these things, but teachers are super overwhelmed because they don't have any time to do their jobs. So you want to have the both worlds, you want the lightened workload, so they could still be getting, you know, doing the rubber hits the road and learning how to do this job as they go, but you also want to carve out that space for them to get the support that they need.
And then thinking about the kinds of support that I have seen that new teachers really, really benefit from. One is access to a safe space to ask for help from veterans and peer teachers. That veteran piece because they have a lot of expertise and wisdom to bring to the table, but also appears other first year teachers, second year, third year teachers who can empathize with them and say, hey, it's totally normal that what you're going through, I'm going through that too.

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And having that camaraderie and feeling like they're not the only one feeling like a failure. There are not the only one feeling like, this is just a lot more than I thought it was gonna be or something like that.
And then the other piece to that, access to a safe space. The mastermind groups I run, I really wanted to create a space for teachers where connecting across building and even across districts and the reason I wanted to create those spaces, these mastermind groups where teachers were talking to people outside their building is because even if you have the safest political culture in your building, a new teacher may not even know that. So like, best case scenario, nobody gossips, nobody's gonna go behind the new teachers back. But the new teacher, if they're smart, knows not to trust that that's the case in the building, so they may not feel comfortable to open up with their mentor teacher, with the teacher next to them, that could help them or even with their instructional coach. So the more that you can connect new teachers outside of your building, I think the better so that they have a safe space to feel like they can be vulnerable to get help on the things that they are actually struggling with.


00:14:20
And that's personally why I think mastermind groups are so awesome because you can create these safe family environments where you're working to create a safe space throughout the year that people feel more and more comfortable being vulnerable. And I think that's what's really, really needed to help new teachers so comfortable to open up. And then even if it's not a mastermind group, just a space, it's specifically designed to be safe for new teachers.
And then the next one, so lightened loads, access to a safe space, ask for help, and then the third one would be workshops and coaching that helps to help, that works to help new teachers process these high emotional challenges, these identity shifts. On top of course, like basic skills and things like that, but workshops that also address this more affective aspect of teaching,
I think it would be awesome if all teachers had a therapist. I am a big proponent of therapy, I think it would be great. But I think there are a lot of other ways to support teachers on that kind of emotional and identity journey than therapy that schools can provide their teachers. So workshops that help teachers become aware of their biases and to process those. I know that I would have so benefited from that as a new teacher rather than struggling with this on my own when I knew that so many other teachers were also struggling with this, but it was just kind of a taboo thing to talk about.


00:15:48
And then the second thing for workshops and coaching, I think is helping teachers process these all of the shoulds that they brought to teaching. My kids should be listening to me while I'm talking. I should be able to get through my grading stack, you know, when I get home at night and I feel tired. I should be designing these lessons that are super engaging every single day and then confronting what's actually happening on classroom, maybe they're tired and they didn't get an awesome lesson plan that day, or maybe they're they have a class that is a little bit chatty right now and they have to be working through that and like that's a very normal thing. But a lot of new teachers don't realize it's a very normal thing to be working through during the year. So, or maybe even something that they can harness and use to their as an asset in their classroom when they're, as they're teaching.
So workshops that work with those sheds, like confronting what it is that how they can work with, what reality really is in front of them. And then I think another, another piece on helping teachers confront their vision versus what they are perceiving as reality in their classroom,

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and in the contrast between those. I think this is a really key place and a really pivotal moment for teachers in their journey to become anti bias, anti racist educators because so often this is the moment where teachers fork, they say, okay, students are not being X, y and Z, that I expect them to be. Either I need to learn how to do this in a different way or it's just these kids, like these kids can't do this or this school isn't like this. I need to go to a different school or something like that. So I think this is a key part of equity and education is coaching new teachers through that dissidents that they're going to experience their first year and their expectations and what's actually happening.
Okay, so the final thing I would say, the concrete thing, I think the new teachers need and lots and lots and lots of, is targeted instruction and culture for making the job sustainable. So my first institute day, when I was a student teacher, I'm so lucky that this was my first, it was the first seminar and my first institute day. It was led by this amazing teacher who I actually worked down the hall from when I was student teaching, and it was a workshop on how to save time grading.

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And she started the workshop by saying, Okay, let's think about like how many students you have 120. Let's think about if you sent five minutes grading every single one of those papers, how many hours would you spend grading? And I think that's something I can't remember, 10 hours, I'm not gonna do that math like that. Something really crazy. And so she said every minute that you add onto your grading for every single paper is going to be another two hours of your life. So let's think about like what is the highest power move that we can make as teachers rather than spending 10 hours grading this paper, that students may not look at, What, how could we spend those 10 hours in a different way or how can I spend those 10 hours to rejuvenate myself?
And so that institute day, I mean there was gold advice, but it also framed the way that I thought about teaching from then on, because this was my first impression of like, okay teacher community, this is what we're talking about with each other. But I have yet to like go to another workshop like that, it was just a really awesome workshop this first time. And so I think we need so much more of that for new teachers.

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And again it goes along with this fucking this assumption that your first few years have to be miserable. Because again, I think a lot of times we don't give new teachers these things because we're like, oh you know your first year, it's gonna suck, you're gonna be here until eight at night. I remember those days kind of thing. Again, a lot of similarities to new parenthood, what you hear. And so having a culture where no, this is not how it's gonna be for you, not even your new teacher and we're gonna help you learn how to do this job more efficiently, more powerfully and more meaningfully.
I was listening to a one of your podcast episodes, it was Dr. Sweet, I don't remember her first name, but I loved what she was talking about. An encouraging joy and passion outside of your teacher day and then also challenging the workaholic building culture. I think just, if you haven't listened to that episode, go listen to it. I'm just going to echo it. I think it's super important and I think it's especially important for our new teachers who are forming the impression of what teaching is and if it's for them.

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Yeah, those are the things I would recommend. That was a lot,
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that was a lot. But it was so good. I mean I just, I was nodding my head the entire time you were speaking. So I just think about, you know, lightened loads. I constantly am trying to talk to leaders about how do we take something off of people's plates right? We can't just keep adding and I love that you center that around new teachers, but particularly new teachers reflecting on what I taught. Like I taught seven completely different classes as a first year teacher. Like that's nuts. That's nuts. Even for a veteran teacher and often it's because I mean, for me, I was jumping at the first job that I was offered because I was just like, yeah, well otherwise I'm not teaching and then I'm kicked out of my program and then I don't have anywhere to live and you know, there's this spiral of, I don't even know how to interview.
So I think thinking about how do we make sure that that is sustainable because ultimately if we're investing all of this time and energy and resources into building up new teachers who are going to stay with us for a while because we have great culture and we have that space for coaching and we have all the workshops you've been talking about, you know, that's going to pay off for us as a school as well as for the students in those classes, right?


00:21:38
A lot of times I think teachers who are new, get the the students who need the most support and probably would benefit from a veteran teacher who has all this experience. And so we're constantly challenging new teachers in ways that, you know, don't don't need to be the case, right? And so I love your first institute day just thinking about that framing of, how else can we spend our time versus spending 10 minutes, you know, a paper or whatever on grading and giving feedback that might not even be looked at. And so thinking about ways to make the work sustainable. I just want to echo is so critical because if we burn teachers out, we are not going to get anywhere and we're just going to be spinning our wheels and that culture building process just kind of stagnates when we have people running out the door constantly. And I just I want to say that this list is brilliant and I hope people like replay that section of the episode because it is so, so good.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah. I just want to like, I empathize with what you're saying as a first year teacher having seven classes, I was given four class, four preps, three different grade levels of writing. It was a core class, but somehow I was like the cog that fit in, you know, like all the empty gaps in the master schedule kind of thing and I got the job probably,

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why are they? My position was open probably for the same reason yours was because nobody, no other veteran teacher wanted it with reason. I don't blame them. But I would argue that that needs to go back to reworking the master schedule. How can we make a humane schedule for everybody? But it's not okay if one of our team members is getting this totally unreasonable load. And it's especially not okay if it's going to be one of our new teachers and I think it's especially especially not okay if it's one of our new teachers that we think very highly of. I think a lot of times that's justification. It's like, well, she's awesome, so she'll be able to handle it, it's fine. And then that's the teacher that gets burned out and leaves the profession. So I think these are kinds of conversations that we need to be having and thinking about when we're creating master schedules, when we're opening positions and when we're talking to our veteran teachers about who is going to get what position and things like that.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, yes. Oh my gosh, as you were describing that the kind of equity of distribution of classes, I was thinking the other teachers particularly

00:23:54
so I was a special education teacher. So the other special education teachers had similar workloads to me, but the general education teachers taught maybe two different preps and so it's just like the discrepancy there between seven and two is nuts. And I never thought that yeah, we should be having this conversation with those teachers, you know, as a school, so smart.
So as you've worked for so long with new teachers, I'm curious to know what has surprised you the most in working with that population of teachers.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, I have a few things. First of all I love, obviously I love working with new teachers as I work with them, but I think some of the things that has really surprised me, it has to do with preparation and how we structure it. And so one of them is how much step by step support new teachers need, especially that summer, you know. I was going to see that summer before their first year teaching. But I think it's actually 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th year teaching. I have this, I have an online course for new teachers that walks them step by step through preparing for their first day and for the year and I have teachers taking that class, sometimes with zero years of experience and sometimes with, like 15 years of experience. and I am,

00:25:14
so what I'm saying is what surprises me is how much step by step support. I mean like, okay, we know best practice is to backwards design grades. We know that we need, we need to start with the assessment in mind, great. But what does that look like? Like literally what do you write on the piece of paper? You know, like when we're thinking about scaffolding for students, I think many times teacher prep programs talk about big ideas, which is great, theory, which is great, equity, fantastic. But we need, when are we going to get into the nitty gritty of like, okay, we're gonna sit down, this is how you lesson plan, this is where you put this, these are the kinds of notes I do. Let's model that for a teacher in a sustainable way too.
So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is kind of in conversation with that first one, and that is, what was so striking to me, was this one time I was giving a workshop. I'm used to giving workshops to, like, 1st, 2nd, 3rd year teachers. I was giving a workshop that I thought it was at a conference and I thought it was, I was gonna get first or third year teachers and as I was going, I realized something was off and just in terms of the engagement and what I was seeing in the teacher's spaces, and somehow, at some point during that workshop, I discovered that almost everybody in the room was a pre service teacher. And it was just this kind of big realization about when teachers, when is the right time for new teachers to receive different kinds of information.


00:26:51
So, yes, new teacher prep programs a lot of times they may, and I'm not sure, but it seems to me that it, many times they lack enough step by step support in creating lesson plans, those kinds of things. But at the same time, I have found that first through third year teachers are total sponges because they're so desperate to solve the problems that they're dealing with day in and day out. And pre service teachers understandably are overloaded with information and they don't know what they're gonna need. It's just like, okay, here's all this advice and then they don't know what they're gonna need when they teach.
And so I think to me, what it suggests is that we need to be incorporating more hands on, more, more experiences where teachers have pre service teachers have autonomy in the classroom. So they can actually have something to pin their learning to, and know what to look for when they are learning to be teachers. And then it also means that we need to be extending that hands on workshops and side by side support for new teachers, those first or third year teachers, rather than just saying, here's all, there's, here's how you'd be a teacher,

00:28:04
okay, go do it. Thanks.
Lindsay Lyons: Yes. Oh my gosh. The research on job embedded support like that too is really positive, right? Like this is what teachers actually need is to be supported as they're doing this. Yes. Oh my gosh, So I love these things that you're talking about, and I want to know why, I think so much of what you've already talked about. You've mentioned this a bit already, is so tied to these ideas of justice and equity that we always talked about on the podcast. So I'm curious to know if you have anything to add from what you've said already around the importance of this work in that frame.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, I think we've kind of, we've danced around a little bit, kind of talking about certain aspects, but just to kind of bring it home. If we think about who are teachers are teaching and who are veteran teachers going to, where our veteran teachers fleeing to? What kinds of schools, what kinds of grade levels, What kinds of workloads, where are they going? And who, where, what positions are being opened up? We're talking about schools that maybe have lower income. We're talking about schools that have higher levels of diversity or maybe have higher needs in terms of instructional needs.

00:29:16
And if those are the positions opening up and those are the those are positions being filled by first or third year teachers, that's where all of our support needs to be. And that's what it's going to be creating these cycles of inequity every single year, if we don't address and kind of put a plug to these teacher retention problems that we're seeing, and things like that.
I was gonna say one other piece of that, and now I'm forgetting what I was gonna say. But I mean, in a nutshell to me, this work is not just about making new teachers' lives easier. Of course it is, but it's also about solving huge issues of inequity in our school systems across the country. And conversations that we need to be having about how workloads and how positions and how master schedules are created and who is filling those positions and what kind of support we're giving them and what assumptions we're making about, what should that experience look like for that teacher?

00:30:18
What are we asking teachers to just accept?, And do because they're a good teacher and they want to be a teacher, and this is what they should be doing, kind of like you're talking about, like, okay, I want to get a job. I don't feel like I should be looking for a different kind of job. I don't think I feel like I should be advocating for myself, because I think all teachers deserve a reasonable workload. And also, if we want good teachers to stay in the profession and continue to grow and for our students to reap the benefits of that, then we need to be paying attention to these kinds of things.
Lindsay Lyons: So well said. I'm so glad that we were able to kinda like, wrap all that together because you're right, we're kind of we're talking about it in so many ways, but what you just said is absolutely it and why this work is so necessary. So, thank you for naming that so clearly.
As we think about, you know, coming to a close of the episode and all of the great things that you've shared, I'm imagining a listener just kind of being like, okay, there's so much that I could be doing if I'm a leader to support educators and if I'm a new teacher to kind of wrap my mind around some of these things or ways of thinking, ways of doing things that maybe I didn't learn in teacher prep school, because I think we should actually start now.


00:31:29
I think we should start like, your own teacher prep school, because I think everything you're describing is like, yes, I wish is this is what the school was like before I got into teaching. but as people are kind of hearing all this stuff. What is one thing if they were just kind of getting started there? Like I like these ideas that you've been sharing. I want to take one next step to start building that momentum towards kind of living it out. What would that recommendation be?
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah. I think, well in all change, I really like to think of it in terms of think big, start small, be consistent. So I would, if you could, I always would recommend doing a mind dump, brain dump of all the different ways that you could be improving, maybe what you're doing yourself, what the school can be doing. And then kind of picking one to start with from there.
In terms of giving a little bit of direction, I think the first thing that's really really important, a good place to start is to figure out where we can start taking things off of new teachers place, so we can make space for all these things.

00:32:36
So teachers can even, I have teachers that love our mastermind groups that dropped out because they just have too much on their plate and so they're making this choice to fly solo so that they can survive rather than have a list of support that they can have. So that would be the first steps that teachers feel like they can accept help. And then I think to a really easy way to make a shift that doesn't require more time and energy from you, is to think about how you're talking to new teachers, how you're talking to them about the profession, about what's a reasonable workload for them to accept. And and teaching them boundary setting. And maybe even like scaring and when you're, I'm just talking about conversations you will be having anyway with new teachers. How can we start steering new teachers to more student centered strategies rather than strategies that are centering on them doing tons and tons of work? And then of course checking yourself if you are prone to that badge of honor for working late into the night, those kinds of things because those are culture shifts that we can all be responsible for making and they don't require any extra help and energy.

00:33:50
And then of course if you've got more energy and time, take a look at that list I was talking about before and see which one would be reasonable for you to tackle first.
Lindsay Lyons: Beautiful. I love it. And as a final kind of question that I love asking just for fun, I think everyone who comes on the podcast is just constantly growing and learning themselves. And so I'm curious to know what is something that you have been learning about lately?
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, so I'm really excited about this class I'm taking right now. It's called Playing Big Facilitators. Of course, I think it's the name, but it's by Tara Mohr. If you've ever read the book, Playing Big, fantastic book, so powerful. Tora Mohr, she's a coach that helps women and leaders sidelined their inner critic, amp up their own inner wisdom and tune into that and then play bigger in their lives, however, that looks for them. So this course that I'm taking is about helping other women and other leaders do that and I just find it so fascinating, thinking about especially since teaching is such a woman dominated industry, thinking about how different pressures and socialization and cultural expectations have been placed by women, how that translates into perhaps that workaholic culture and not maybe not stepping up and speaking up when they could be when they have so much wisdom and expertise to share and helping and just thinking about how to help teachers do that in their buildings and play bigger,
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that sounds like an amazing book I now need to read.

00:35:24
Jeanne Wolz: Yes, definitely recommend
Lindsay Lyons: That is great. And I'm sure people are going to be really sad that this episode is ending because they want to continue talking to you and learning from you. And so I'm curious to know where would you some listeners who are interested in connecting, learning more about you taking your course or joining your masterminds.
Jeanne Wolz: Yeah, I think the central hub would be the Teacher Off Duty website, it's just teacher off duty dot com. That's my first website. That's kind of where they're at least to everything. If you want to learn more about the New Teacher Mastermind Program, you can just go to new teacher masterminds dot com. And you can find me on social media with through teacher off duty handle on everything. And then if you wanted to learn more about how to shift mindset and challenge missed about supporting new teachers and concrete ideas about how to support new teachers, I have a freebie on the New Teacher Masterminds website that you can download for free, about 10 ways to support new teachers.
Lindsay Lyons: That sounds amazing and I'm gonna drop links to all those things into the show notes in the blog post for this episode.

00:36:28
So if you're driving or running or something, don't worry about like writing these things down in the moment, You can totally grab them later. But Jeanne, thank you so so much for this really wise and brilliant conversation.
Jeanne Wolz: Thank you Lindsey. It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big,, act brave, and be your best self.

Jeanne can be found on her websites: 
www.teacheroffduty.com
www.newteachermasterminds.com
Or on social media:
Instagram: @teacheroffduty
​Facebook: facebook.com/TeacherOffDuty
​

www.instagram.com/5kyl3/Lindsay Lyons : In this episode we get to hear from High School students. These students are members of the Springhouse Community, their names are Skyler, Rhys, Amelia, and Sam. So we have four different students from a range of grades in this school community, and I'm so excited to just introduce and give you a sense of a few of their backgrounds. Just for reference, this episode was recorded in November 16th of 2021.
So the oldest student, or the highest grade student we have on this podcast, is Skyler. He is a senior as well as a student visionary at Springhouse. He works alongside the founding visionary to keep the vision of the school clear, and helped turn the vision into action. In connection with the school, he's also leading events and shows that invite people to take a deeper look at themselves, the world around them, and the ambiguity of life.
Our youngest participant today is thirteen years old, this is Rhys Bowman and she loves to read, write and has also been known to crochet in her free time. She has two younger siblings, a sister and a brother, both of which go to the New River Valley Montessori, and she's been going to Springhouse since September 7th of 2021.

00:01:05
She's first year at Springhouse, who's experienced both private and public schooling, whether it be online or in person, which really helps her to have a well rounded perspective about schooling here in Virginia. So excited for you to hear from all of these folks today - again, Skyler, Rhys, Amelia, and Sam, let's dive into this great conversation with students.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was - you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself - you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast.

00:02:16
Let's dive in. Skyler, Rhys, Amelia, and Sam, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. I am so excited to have you all on today from Springhouse. We're going to start with just a little bit of intro on, you know, if one of you wants to speak about your school.... and then if you each want to kind of introduce yourself... kind of where you are in terms of your learning journey, whatever feels relevant to share about yourself as a learner or even more broadly, right, as a person. So, I don't know who wants to jump in first, but feel free.
Skyler : I guess I can start here. So, my name is Skyler, my pronouns are he, him. I am a senior here at Springhouse, I've been here since 7th grade, so I've basically had the full run. And I'm also the student visionary who works alongside the founding visionary, whose name is Jenny Finn. Yeah. So.
Rhys : I'm Rhys I use she, her pronouns. This is my first year in Springhouse. I'm in 8th grade and, yeah, this is my... it's a very new experience and I'm really excited to be here because already I've learned a lot.


00:03:34
Sam : My name is Sam. I use he, him pronoun. I'm in the middle of cohort here at Springhouse and this is my first year.
Amelia : My name is Amelia, I'm happy with all pronouns. I'm in 11th grade and I work with Piper Pollack to help, like, design the funding model.
Lindsay : This is so cool. And so you're already speaking to some roles that students don't typically have in schools that are more traditional settings or institutionalized settings. And so I am really excited to dig into that a bit further - but I'd love for someone to kind of give me a summary of, like, what is it like at Springhouse in comparison to... I'm not sure if you all started in more traditional places, you know, prior... like in elementary school, prior to coming to Springhouse - but what makes Springhouse different or unique? Or what is it about Springhouse that you think people should know as they're listening who may not be familiar with, you know, different models of education?
Sam : Well, I feel like at Springhouse... as I went to public school for ten years before I came here... and I feel like at this place I am much... I'm more than just a number for my grade and, like, I'm much more than what my grades are.


00:04:51
Speaker:: I know that I've switched between private and public and, like, independent schools a lot - and the difference definitely between Springhouse, like Sam said, is that you're not just your grade, you're an actual human being and not just like a number who's learning and might take a different pace. While as in public school it's a little harder.
Skyler : Beyond it just not being a number, I think it's... it actually goes a lot deeper than that. It goes to a level of... you're not just a person, you're a member of this community, you are a friend... you know... you are a genuinely valuable member of this group. And it's not like it's, like, some, like, exclusive, like, membership club, but it's, like, we deeper than just, you know... you're not a number, you're, like truly, truly, truly seen at a real level.

00:05:55
And you also are given the opportunity not just to be seen, but to see as well. So it's a two way back... it's like... it's like... it also is like, it's not even just two ways, it's all different ways of, like, of feeding and nourishing yourself and nourishing other people and it's a whole community, And that goes beyond age, and that goes beyond, you know, where you... where you live... it goes deeper than that. And that's why Springhouse, as an organization, isn't just a day school program for teenagers - it also has opportunities for adults, it also has opportunities for young children. And so it's, like, deeper than just being a school we're also a... the word that we've used in the past is the Intergenerational Learning Community.
Lindsay : That is so beautiful. I love that, an Intergenerational Learning Community. And so, as you're describing this, to me it feels like... and I know, Skyler, you are saying you hold the role of the student visionary, I think you said, right? And so that I think speaks to my first question around this idea of really thinking about what is possible for learning organizations and beyond the, you know, traditional way we tend to kind of think about education. And so I love Dr Bettina Love - her book We Want to Do More Than Survive is one of my favorite educational books,

00:07:25
and in it she talks about this idea of freedom dreaming and so really like dreaming about the possible in ways that advance freedom and she talks specifically about them as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, which I just think is a fabulous quote. And so as I say that and you're kind of thinking about the dream that you hold for learning communities, either your own or learning communities more broadly, you know - what is that dream that you have for kind of what education could be? What do you wish school was like? And anyone can start?
Speaker : I know that for me, what I would dream of, what school would be like is... it's very similar. It probably... there's a lot of similarities in Springhouse, it's just kind of being able to know that there's a lot of different intelligences rather than just mathematical or scientific intelligences. Is that there's different ways that people learn and that they're not just their grades and how they're ranked in that specific academic intelligences. Because I know there's a lot of people that are more creativity... how their intelligence is more focused in creativity, like drawing or in theater or something that's not like the... I don't want to say, like, normal, I guess... or like the standard - I think that what I feel, like, school should be is that everyone is able to learn at their own pace.

00:08:55
And, like, be able to be seen as a human and not just as this standard.
Skyler : Yeah. And I would also add on top of that that when we look at the world around us, I would say there's a lot of stuff that's going on, there's a lot of really challenging things going on in the world today... and I hold the opinion that the leverage point in society where we can really make change, where we can really move the world forward, is in the education system. Education is the leverage point, and education is where... it's where our system starts. And so if we can find a way... well, actually no, we have found a way, and we do orient around life, orient around what the principles of life... we have... not to get super into it, but we have a thing that we share with other organizations that are, you know, wanting to learn from us. We have several principles that we follow, and those principles are taking care of vulnerability, cultivating personhood, building beloved community, respecting the wisdom of the earth, and loving and serving others.

00:10:16
So those are like some principles that we have, and what I would say, in my opinion, if we implement that into a wider school system that can lead to our society and our culture, in at least America as a whole, moving more towards principles like that - or principles that are more life giving than the ones that we currently have.
Speaker : Well, like, yeah, like Skyler was saying, like, children and, like, young people are the future of the world, and if we can teach them to, like, love and be compassionate and, like, care about the earth, then we could... we could see a much brighter future.
Speaker : Something that I see happen at Springhouse, but I think is a part of education that needs to be there, is, like, having it be accessible to lots of different people that could be, like, financially, or, like, the way things are structured, or, like, even... we're kind of far out from, like, town and stuff... we're not exactly in the middle of nowhere, but probably, like, half an hour from town.

00:11:32
So, like, we do a lot of carpooling when, like... I mean we are in a pandemic, but before the pandemic we had a lot of carpooling, but, like, transportation and stuff.
Lindsay : I love that, and I love that each of the things you're speaking to really speak to those larger principles that... that Skyler that you mentioned, as well, and this is - I agree that if we could just do that on a broader scale, right? For all schools to be able to tap into those - I think we would have a very different system than we have now. So, as we think about this, I think... especially thinking about a lot of the listeners who typically listen to this podcast are folks who are educators in some respect... in mostly traditional schools. And so I'd be curious to know, and I think you spoke to this a little bit, but if there's, like, something that really helped you shift your mind from that traditional education system that I think many of you spoke to being in prior to being at Springhouse and coming over to Springhouse - like, what was the thing that you had to, kind of, shift your thinking around? Or what would be the thing that you think listeners would be really, you know, they would benefit from shifting their thinking around in order to really live out that dream that you've been describing so far?


00:12:49
Speaker : I think that a really important part of Springhouse is that we, like, really value emotions and, like, take the time to listen and care about people. We have, like, mentorships so that, like, every learner has mentor, even that staff has mentors, so, like, you have someone to go to and, like, trust with things that are happening. And I think that if, like, emotions were, like, valued and respected then it would be good.
Speaker : I feel like there is such... it's such a community, like, when I came here... because it's not... it's definitely not what I was expecting, like, it's... we're all very close to each other I feel like, especially with, like, the staff and, like, student relationships with, like... with, like, mentors and stuff like that. So it's really healthy and, yeah, it's giving me, like, a much broader sense of community and, like, having, like, a place to belong than any other school has ever done.


00:13:58
Rhys : Yeah, I think the mentorships really did help with, like, the transitioning between public school and here. You also kind of have to get in the mindset that, like, you don't have to be the best in, like, a specific thing. Because it's all about learning - that's kind of what you come to school to do, and here you're able to just not be the best at something and be able to learn, and grow from it. And I think that's something that, like, I had to, like, think about for a little bit because it was kind of hard because I came from, like, a, like, a school situation where if I was not the best then I would feel like I was...So coming here and being able to just learn instead of just having to be the best is definitely something that was helpful as well.
Skyler : Yeah, I love that. I would love to add on top of everything, like, I love everything that y'all just said. And also I think, like, one thing that I really think about when I think about how you can bring this at a smaller scale into a, you know, in your class in like a public school setting,

00:15:16
I think about trust. I think about how the importance of learner agency and learner trust - and that's a trust that goes both ways. Right now we are all students here, there is no facilitator watching us, there is no... we are in these rooms alone because they trust us - and in turn we trust them. And so there's this trust that needs to be there. And something to invite the student to something bigger, something... And I see, like, a higher power, not, like, you know, like some... some, like, religious thing... I mean a higher power is in the group, the community that you're in - that's a higher power that if you contribute to, you can make that higher power stronger. And so if that becomes clear, not just through words, but through actions and through the way that you structure everything, that will invite students into something that they would have never tried otherwise.

00:16:24
Lindsay: Wow, these are wonderful ideas. And so I'm thinking about... and I like, Skyler, that you were kind of starting to take us there, too, so this is a great segue. You know, what does this look like to be able to bring these mindset shifts and these dreams that we just described into... perhaps in small waves at first... into a more traditional, perhaps public school setting? And I'm curious to know what are... what are the actions, like, what does it look like at the practical level for, you know, a learning guide? Like, what would a learning guide do? Or an educator do? What would a learner experience? Like, what are the things that... as educators are listening... they can take action on, you know, tomorrow in their class or in their school communities or learning environments more broadly?
Speaker : I think that maybe one thing might just be able to kind of get in the headset or, like, think about how everyone learns differently. So, say, if in public school there's a kid who likes to draw a lot... maybe their math class... maybe somehow try to incorporate and, like, understand - try to help the kid understand what's going on and maybe have them do the assignment through something that they're good at.

00:17:33
Whether it be (unintelligible) understand. Just get in the headset that everybody kind of learns differently, is what I'd say.
Skyler : Yeah. I mean, like, this has been a defined like, I'm... the reason why I'm in the role that I'm in is because I'm a... I'm a big vision guy, and I really struggle with the entire bringing it down thing. But, yeah, I would say... I would say... and this is maybe not something that you can do, like, tomorrow, this is a little bit of a bigger thing, but, like, the complete removal of assessment helps big time. We, as a school, have gone through a lot. I mean in my six years of being at the school, there has been a shift in the way that we do assessments every year, which... it went from, like, you have to do a presentation to you have, like, grades to... you know... we have, like, a special assessment thing. It's like a scale of, like, one to four, and now It's like none of that. Now it's just, like,, let's talk about it, let's just talk about where we're... let's talk about what you're good at, what you maybe are not good at

00:18:48
and let's just have a conversation. And that's what we're doing right now, actually. We're currently in our, quote, it's called a "Reflection of Learning Week". And so... and everybody just has conversations about the skills that we practice in the courses. In the sense of, like, in a teacher public school type of setting, I would say allow, like, allow for failure, like, create projects that are not something that... create projects and allow the kids to fail. And I don't mean, like, set it up for failure - but set up, like, create a project that is challenging and don't baby it. Don't say, like, you should do this next and you should do this next - maybe if they reach out to you and they're, like, I need some support here, maybe yeah,, totally do that. But, you know, creating... creating... again... the learner... giving a learner a task and a vision to put together and... and use, is really special.


00:20:06
Yeah. Excellent. Amelia, Sam, did you want to weigh in - I can't remember if you spoke on this question yet? I can't remember if we did, but something that I can add is I think just, like, getting lower involvement where you can, it could be like really small or like huge, but just, like, actively trying to get learner voices and, like, hear what they have to say about things. If you're going to make like a decision about your class or your school, ask the people in it. Absolutely. So well said, I think that's so critical. Yeah, I think that, like, you're at Springhouse, we definitely have like are like a lot of voices are definitely more heard and then, like, some other school settings that I've been to and I feel like, and I feel like that gives a more of a mutual respect for, like, students and teachers... or I guess I should say like students and teachers... but, like, yeah, like the learners and, like, yeah.

00:21:13
And I think that if other... if other schools would implement that more. if they yeah, they a bit, like, hear us, like, hear, like, the students more, I feel like that would be really beneficial.
Lindsay: Yeah,, and I'd love to hear... and any one of you can speak either Sam if you want to follow up on that or I know, Amelia, you spoke that as well, you know, that idea of student voice and learner voice - what does that actually look like for someone who is, you know, teaching in this typical traditional public school and they're thinking, you know, to what degree do I engage learners in conversation - or when do I engage learners? Is this like a daily conversation? Is this like, as I'm starting to build a unit and we're, like, co -creating the unit together? Is it something that you have an opportunity to do, you know, when... when, like, Skyler, you spoke about, for example, the assessment changes that have been made over time, you know, is that something that learners were involved in? And at what part of the process or, you know, throughout the process? So I don't know if anyone wants to speak to any of those pieces, but I'd love to just get clear on, you know, how does that... how does that work?


00:22:17
Amelia: We have some, like, smaller and larger ways that we bring it in. Because, I mean, a fun thing about Springhouse is we're, like, constantly changing and reimagining how we're doing things. So, like, we had committees and now we don't have committees anymore - now there's just, like, people who can get together, committees when they see a need... and so having, like, we call it "The Round Table" and it's like a group of (unintelligible) Skyler and I are both on it, so kind of get to convey... it's not exactly like learners to the staff members, but sometimes it's like learner stuff to, like, (unintelligible) 'cause they're not often as involved there today, but... and then some smaller things we do is, like, we do a lot of discussions just, like... even if it's just, like, an in-class discussion... then we can just discuss and see where it takes us.

00:23:18
And we do, like, very regularly, just, like, check-ins at the beginning of class - they could be, like, fun check-ins, like what type of animal are you today? Or they could be more serious check-ins, like "How's the course going for you?" And also because I think that we have this trust - if sometimes there is, like, something that's happening that's not being brought up then at least I... and I think probably most of the student body... feels comfortable going to staff members to, like, talk about things that are happening during the school just because we, like, understand that they'll hear us and so...
Skyler : Yeah.. I think that... I think about restorative justice here, how like, you know, kind of, you know, adding on to what you're saying, Amelia, and, yeah, I... it's, like... and that ties... like it really all ties down to trust. Is kind of like what I've realized over the time is, like, I trust that I can make a mistake and it's not the end of the world, you know. And that's... and it's okay to make mistakes and it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. And it's okay to... to, you know, deal with, like, all of these, like, facets and deep things that, like, we experience as people.

00:24:52
And I just really... it's like... and I guess... I guess it's just something that, like, is really like if you want something to happen now in your... in your classroom, I would say, yeah, again, they're just, like, absolutely, truly trust your students. And at first they might be like, oh, they might, like, not know how to deal with that and eventually, and relatively pretty quickly, I think that trust will actually become a mutual thing. And then your relationship really becomes that - a relationship - and not just like a, you know, big talking head in front of a bunch of people who don't care. Um and so... yeah
LIndsay : Absolutely. Thank you so much for just speaking to that, that clearly????, you know, how how does that look? So, one of the things I'm just really curious about... and this is more of a fun question here... but this idea of, you know, what your experience has been like and all these positive things you've been talking about - is there, like, one learning experience that you've had that really influenced you or has been really memorable or helped you a lot?

00:26:08
Something that you would want to share with people to kind of illustrate what life at Springhouse like
Skyler : Something that comes up for me is a few years ago, like, yes, like, in, like, four years now - I was, like, I was this kid who, like... and not to get super... not only to get... trying to do it without getting political here... but as a young... as a young kid, I was very convinced by, like, conservative internet stuff, and I, like, got like very trapped in it, and it, like, lead to, like, homophobia for myself and, like, all this and, like, really messed up stuff that I was thinking at the time. And then Jenny... who's the founding visionary here... did a class called Restore... No, it wasn't, it was called... oh I forgot what it's called... but it was... it was about white privilege, and it was about... It was co-led by Jenny, who's a white woman, and Shauna Tucker, who's a black woman, and they... and we just had like, all different types of people come in and we discussed privilege - and it was a very, very moving experience for me and really pulled me into, like... "Oh wow!" It taught me a lot about empathy and a lot about the mistakes that I had made, and the privilege that I have. And so in that sense that class was extraordinarily moving for me.

00:27:56
And it was all... it was called Courageous Conversations, that was what it was called. And it was just conversations, we were all in a circle and just talking about race and privilege in all different aspects of that stuff. And, yeah.
Lindsay : Thank you so much for your vulnerability and sharing that story, Skyler, I really appreciate it. Rhys, Amelia or Sam - do you want to share one?
Amelia : A couple of times that stand out to me are the times that I've been invited to help do things that I wasn't, like, expecting to be asked to help with. Like,, I think my second year at Springhouse, I was asked to help MC a fundraising event - and it was, like, "Wow, I get to help lead this with, like, a community elder!" And I was not expecting, like, being invited to leadership like that - and it was... it made me feel really, like, valued in the community. And then I've got into, like, MC a couple other events, like I got to help Chris Wolfe, one of our staff members, with our presentation night last year - and that was also really special - just because getting invited into, like, leadership that I've always thought were, like " Oh, those are, like, adult roles and you can't do that because, whatever the reason is, you're young and you're unprepared or whatnot." But actually doing it, and it going well, it just builds so much confidence and it was just so special those times.
Lindsay : Amelia, thank you so much for sharing. Rhys, did you have something you wanted to say?

00:29:42
Rhys : Yeah., I think one thing that's really popping out is actually when I was invited to,like, be on the podcast. I actually was... I didn't really... if I... we kind of did like a raise your hand thing and I was going to, but I didn't really think I'd be able to, like, do it anyway, so I kept my hand down, and this one person was like " Hey, I think Rhys should do this." And I was like... and it was very (unintelligible), it made me really happy. It made me feel very seen. And I think that was really something that's definitely gonna stick with me for a long time.
Lindsay : That's so beautiful, thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm so grateful to that person who recommended you, because you have been wonderful so far. Thank you. Sam, did you want to share a story?
Sam : Well, just, like... we've been doing our reflections of learning for... on, like, the Monday, and a bit of today, and just, like, hearing what a lot of my... hearing what my teachers had to really, like, say about me - like, what they, like, noticed and picked up on and, like, my learning, really made me feel, like... it really made me feel heard and like "Oh, they noticed this about me," or, like, something similar. And, yeah, that's just, like, really moving to me that they... that they'd noticed, and, like, and even noticed... like, noticed that, like, enough to be, like "Hey you do this a lot and I think that's really something you should reflect on."

00:31:13
Lindsay " Yeah, thank you for speaking to that, because I have seen that in my survey design research in terms of the questions that we ask students and so, you know, not qualitative conversational responses where students are explaining, but just the survey answers they select around a question like that - How often do you feel like your teachers notice you, or notice that you're upset, or notice that you did this. And it's, it's really, you know, nationwide. Anecdotally, just looking at the data I've seen, is really low, like, it's such a basic thing, but it's really low, typically, for students. and I appreciate you speaking to that. (Unintelligible) it's such a basic thing that we can do, right? Is just pay attention to the folks around us and that goes a really long way. So I really appreciate that. And I love that you spoke too, in reference to, you know, you're in Reflection Week, and thinking about that. And so maybe we'll jump to that question of what is something that you have been learning about lately, whether that's, you know, the content in terms of the actual stuff you're learning this week, or this past unit that you've done or, you know, however you wanna segment time? Or it could be kind of like on a, you know, a skill-based or self - reflective level of as you're reflecting on the things you've done, you know, what is it that you're learning about yourself or your skill sets or something like that?

00:32:27
So feel free to interpret that question in any way that you'd like, I'd love to hear from each of you.
Sam : Well, I feel like I've learned that like, I'm a lot like... this sounds weird... but, like, I'm a lot better at school than I thought I was. And, like... I've worked, like, for, like, these, like, years and just thought to myself, like, maybe I'm just, like, not smart, I guess. But now were, like, coming to, like, Springhouse that kind of made me realize that they're reflecting on all of a sudden being able to, like, learn all the stuff. I was just like, "Oh, I can learn, I just wasn't doing it." Not really. Just wasn't like, really able to do it the way that was beneficial to me. And I feel like that's, like, a big part of, like, I was like... it's very individual - like, every student's different - and they see that
Lindsay : Thanks Sam. Anyone else wanna share?
Rhys : I think for me it was kind of like relearning how to learn - if that makes any sense? Because I remember when I was in public school everything that I was taught... I can't remember, like, any of it. And now that I'm here I'm kind of relearning how to learn and remember, kind of, like, what I'm learning - and it's a lot easier because... how do I put this?

00:33:43
I kind of... they put it... they teach it in a way that all learners can understand and if a learner can't you can go up and ask a question. Like, you can actually ask a question and you'll be able to, like, be, like, "I don't know this, I need a little help." And I think that that's... yeah it's really great.
Lindsay : Thank you Rhys. Skyler or Amelia- anything you guys have been learning about lately?
Skyler : Um, yeah. But so... in our main course so we usually learn... what's it called... I forget the terminology... phenomenon... Is that the word? Do you know Amelia?
Amelia : No.
Skyler : We learned... we usually learn by taking a big subject, and then pulling different things out of it and studying things out of it. We've been doing a course on culture - and we've been looking at how culture... we kind of looked at culture through the lens of the Icarus myth... I don't know if you know that one, but it's the classic fly too high, low, fire under the sun.

00:35:09
And we were talking about, like, how does society, like, how does our culture, at least in America, go too high or too low - and where is that... where is that land? And then we kind of, like, led to this place of thinking about this term called Monoculture. Now, it's, you know, it's usually used in, like, farming - but in this context it's like a sociopolitical concept around a culture that focuses on one thing. one thing smushes all the other, you know, little things that come up through the cracks... or at least tries to. And so, what that's led to is, you know, me and Jenny are currently working on projects with the mission in mind of disrupting the Monoculture. And, you know, the kind of... the conclusion that I, personally, came to in the course was that our Monoculture orients around money, and success, and being better than the person next to you.

00:36:18
And, you know, in the course, we really asked the question "Can we go deeper?" And so that's kind of a really, really, moving course for me.
Lindsay : Thanks Skyler, that's awesome. I want to take that course.
Skyler : It's really cool.
Lindsay : Amelia, did you want to share one?
Amelia : I would. I've been having a hard time choosing, because, like, all of the courses I've done have been, like, really great. But I think the course that usually stands out to me when I've asked questions like this is last year I was, like, mostly virtual for the whole year, and not everyone was, and that was pretty challenging. But in the middle of the year, there was a course... I believe it was called Body and Isolation... and it was kind of an anatomy course... because we were learning a lot about the brain and, like, the brain's reaction to things, and, like, all the different departments do. But then it also had various parts like movement and stuff. I'd never taken a course with Roxanne before, and it was really helpful for me on zoom, because the zoom week was just like, zoom... you're sitting down for the whole time.

00:37:34
But Roxanne would always be, like, "Okay, we're standing up, we're moving around, we're doing some breathing exercises." And it was really nice to help, like, recenter into the body, and we're actually here learning about this. And then the learning was more valuable and engaging because of that. And we also learned in that course a lot of different things like the brain's reaction to trauma and like breathing things you can do to help you when, like, you're going into a 'fight or flight' response and, like, it was a very engaging course for being on zoom. There were a lot of slide shows and, like, discussions and things. And so it was course that really lifted me up and let me get through the rest of the year
Lindsay : And it sounds really relevant to the time in the context of Covid, right? And just, like, everything feels really practical, like, those breathing strategies, I'm sure the standing and moving and, like, the learning about trauma and, like, Covid being a collective trauma, right? Societally, it sounds really, really on the mark that someone was, like, this is a course we need to teach now and in this way.

00:38:42
Excellent. All right, so, as we wrap up the episode, I'm just curious to know... as we talked about so many things... So, as folks are listening, and they're kind of, you know, closing out their commute, or going for a run, or however they're listening... and just thinking, "I want one tangible thing to kind of remember as they close the episode." So, something that either one of us have said so far, or a call to action, like an action stuff they can take - anything that you think that we've talked about, that you want to just highlight or emphasize as we close that could be the takeaway item for someone who's ending the episode now - any thoughts on what that might be?
Skyler : If you... I've said this earlier... if you teach adolescents, you gotta trust them, you gotta trust them. The thing is, we are more capable than you might think. We are very capable of doing really awesome stuff. But often, how I look at it in the (Unintelligible) things that I've experienced,

00:39:46
it felt like I haven't gotten the opportunity to really test myself, really push myself, really go to the edge of my capacity. And so, you know, that's one really tangible thing is just, like, actually do the practices in yourself to learn how to trust your students in a way that yeah, you know... learning to trust them, and give them opportunities to test both yourself and your trust of them, you know. Be like, you know, "I want you to set up something and I depend on you," and allow them to figure it out - because we can do some really cool stuff if we are given the opportunity... and I think that you're... that part of your job as a facilitator is to give us the opportunity. So, yeah.
Lindsay : Beautifully said. What other things do people want to highlight?
Amelia : I think that, in connection with you, Skyler, if you're a learner listening to this, try to trust your facilitator, because then you can make that connection.

00:41:02
Lindsay : Great suggestion, Amelia, thank you. Say more, Rhys?
Rhys : I think that, like, listening to your students, like, listening to your learners and the learners listening to the teachers, like, is such a crucial part of, like, of the healthy school environment. And I think that, like, yes, so much, like how Skyler was saying - how, like, capable adolescents are like, okay, well we are... we could be so much more capable if we had great resources to do it.
Skyler : Yes,, thank you.
Speaker : I think that, like, what everyone, especially Skyler, was talking about, is that definitely that mutual trust. and just being able to recognize and understand that everybody learns differently and that some... yeah just like Sam said, just being able to challenge, yeah... sorry, that didn't make much sense and (unintelligible) interpreted as well.

00:42:18
But not really, I don't know,
Lindsay : I think that makes perfect sense. Yeah, I think and that's a really, really great point that I think all of these responses seem connected to that idea of relationality, right? And in building that relationality with students and fostering that sense of not everyone learns the same, right? And we need to listen to be able to figure out how students learn, right? And there's all these interconnections between what you all just highlighted - we need to build that trust to be able to have that relationship in the first place. So, I think this is brilliant wisdom to be able to share at the close of the episode. And the very last question... I'm not sure if you all have a space online that folks could learn more about the school? I know Jenny had spoken on a previous episode with... that I had with Jenny... she spoke about the school webpage. So I don't know if there are other things like class blogs or project spaces that people can go to, to see any of your work... or if you, you know, if you're wanting to connect with folks individually... absolutely feel free to share that as well... but I'm just wondering what people can do to kind of follow up and learn more about you all and your work
Skyler : Immediately off the top of my head here...


00:43:25
the school, me and Jenny and a few other people, really worked a few years ago on designing education design principles... the ones that I told you... and they are part of this thing that we call Sourced Design - and we have all types of opportunities for educators and business owners and nonprofit people, but to really study and look into it. And so we do have a web page, the source to design dot org, where you can really dig into, like, the real nitty gritty of what we've been talking about here.
Lindsay : Perfect. And I'll link to that in the show notes, too. So, for anyone who's driving while listening, you can grab that, they're in the blog post when you're done driving. Thank you all so, so much, I just want to reiterate my gratitude for you all taking time out of your day to come together and talk about this and provide some really insightful commentary and suggestions for educators who are trying to do the great things that you're speaking about today.
​
00:44:30
So, thank you all - Skyler, Rhys, Amelia, Sam, thank you so much for for being on the podcast.
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time, Leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

School Contact Links:

• Sourceddesign.org
• Springhouse Website

​How to get in touch with our guests:

• Skyler is on Instagram
• Rhys is on Snapchat @ rhysbowman2019 and on email at: zashleigh.rhys@gmail.com

Lindsay Lyons: I'm excited for you to hear from Dr. Kelly Cerialo today. She's an associate professor and program coordinator in the Business and Hospitality Department at Paul Smith's College, she is the co-chair of the Unesco Champlain-Adirondack Biosphere Reserve, New York and Vermont, a steering committee member for the US Unesco Biosphere Network, and focal point liaison for the US Biosphere Reserve Youth Network. She coordinates international student exchanges with a focus on eco-tourism in Unesco Biosphere reserves in Europe and Africa. She is the co-founder of the Adirondack to Appennino Sustainable Parks and Communities Project, an international sustainable initiative between the Appennino Tusco-Emiliano Biosphere Reserve in Italy and the Champlain-Adirondack Biosphere Reserve. Dr. Cerialo is the former director of the Global Center for Rural Communities at Paul Smith's College and has over a decade of experience building international sustainable development collaborations. She received the Chamberlain Excellence in Teaching Award in 2019 and Faculty Member of the Year at Paul Smith's College in 2018. Dr. Cerialo has presented her research on sustainable tourism and youth leadership development at conferences in the US, Europe, Asia, and Africa.

00:01:05
She has a PhD in Leadership and Change from Antioch University, a master's degree in Communication Management from the University of Southern California, master's degree in Leadership and Change from Antioch University, and a bachelor's degree in Public Relations, Mass Media Communication from the College of New Jersey. Her research interests include sustainable tourism development, the social impacts of tourism in internationally designated areas, sustainable tourism in Unesco Biosphere reserves, Unesco Biosphere reserve governance and management, recreation overuse, and youth leadership development in internationally designated areas. Let's get right to the episode. For a reference I'll tell you when this episode was recorded, which was August 9, 2021. Here we go.
[upbeat violin sounds]
Lindsay Lyons: Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive.

00:02:06
I'm a former teacher leader-turned instructional coach, educational consultant, and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

Lindsay Lyons: Welcome Dr. Kelly Cerialo to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I just read your professional bio. Is there anything you want to add to that intro?

Dr. Kelly Cerialo: So Lindsay, thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm honored and it's-- I'm excited to share with you my perspectives about study abroad. So I would say that the main thing I wanted to add about this before we get started is that a lot of what I'm discussing today is a mix of my own academic research and experience. So I'm not the traditional academic. I would say I'm a more scholar practitioner and so a lot of the context of what I'm discussing is based on conducting service-learning study abroad trips for the last seven years in Italy and South Africa.

00:03:19
And so a lot of it again isn't just based on my scholarly research, but more my practice in the field. So I wanted to say that and I think another aspect that might be helpful to frame our conversation is to tell you a little bit about the college where I teach and the student demographics. I think that will help understand how I've learned from this study abroad approach and how I've tried to strengthen the service-learning aspect of the study abroad piece. So I teach at a very small rural private college in upstate New York, in the northern Adirondacks actually, so it's about six hours north of New York City. It's called Paul Smith's College and the whole model of learning there is focused on innovative experiential learning and so I know that a lot of programs focus on that, but it's really changed my perspective of what that can look like and more importantly, how place-based education fits into that. So in terms of the college itself and the location, it's a really interesting learning ground. We have in our school, we have programs that range from Forestry Management, where it's literally the students are barely in the classroom, they're always outside, you know, it's-- our campus is 14,000 acres so the students are outside, you know, in the field all the time learning.

00:04:36
And in my program I teach in the Business and Hospitality Department. So we're always quote unquote in the field too. I'm not in the forest as much, but we're always, you know, in the field meeting with, tourism operators to learn about, you know, things related to our field. So it's truly out of the classroom experiential learning. And that's-- it was interesting because that actually helped me improve my approach to study abroad because it really focused on place-based learning. And then I tried to apply that in a global setting so to improve my approach to study abroad and how I can make that more generative for the students, not only in our local community but more importantly abroad. So in terms of the student demographics that I teach, so, again it's a very small school and we have about 1000 undergraduate students, we just launched one master's program, but the bachelor's program is about 1000. And most of the students are first generation college students, low income families, most of them receive federal funding in order to supplement their tuition.

00:05:38
And so this isn't a traditional kind of western, extremely wealthy, you know, New York City-based college, it's-- these are certainly low income and first generation college students that in traditional academic settings may not have an opportunity to study abroad. But I'm proud that at our school we've built in funding opportunities in scholarships that allow these students to be able to go to all different locations. You know, whether it's Russia, I don't run the Russia study abroad. We have another program in Biology that does a study abroad trip to Russia, but then also in Italy, South Africa. So it's a really, I think unique, innovative and I like to think an inclusive model that our whole school is introduced. I don't think it's just me. I think the other faculty members have really wrapped their, you know, hands around and minds around creating truly innovative place-based education in our area and then abroad. So it's pretty unique in that and I'm proud to, proud to be a part of it.

00:06:36
Lindsay Lyons: That's amazing and it kind of speaks-- that, that answer was kind of speaks to the next question that I'm going to ask, which is around this idea that Dr. Bettina Love talks about: freedom dreaming. She describes that, I love her description, as "Dreams grounded in the critique of injustice". And so I'd love to hear from you, you know, what is your big dream that you hold for the field of education?
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: So many, right, I have a laundry list, but I think the one that's so relevant to this episode, and I say the-- I think, it's so relevant just in terms of what's going on in the world today is the idea of trying to figure out a way for educators and administrators to introduce their-- to reimagine the idea of place as pedagogy, right? So the idea of thinking about how place as pedagogy can create opportunities for students to think critically about injustice in their own towns, but also abroad. Along with that, I think what is critical is to think about how students and even faculty, I, you know, needed to reflect on this myself several times,

00:07:47
is thinking about how our own intersectional lenses influence the way that we see, we feel, and we think about, right? Those three aspects: seeing, feeling, and thinking about our culture and other cultures, I think, are a critical piece to place as pedagogy, right? So it's not only seeing it, but you feel a certain way when you're experiencing a place, right? When you're sensing a place. And then when you're thinking about it, sometimes your thoughts don't always align with what you're seeing. And so I think considering those three aspects is really important. So I think when I'm dreaming again about this big idea, you know, what dream do I hold for education is really how can we introduce that way of thinking about place as pedagogy to think critically, for students to think critically about injustice and in that, in that same aspect of thinking about injustice is also thinking about what opportunities in that can we create for social change, because I think that's the piece, it's not just saying there's injustice there, but we can use place as pedagogy to find opportunities for social change.

00:08:53
So I think it's a pretty pie in the sky, you know, dream that, I think it's possible. And I think that, yeah, it's something I'm at least striving for.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that so much, and I think that's such a great point. We don't want to just point out injustice and identify where it exists, but we want to actually advance justice and, you know, make social change. And so I love that, that piece of the dream, and I'm thinking, you know, this is, as you said, kind of pie in the sky, or maybe a deviation from, particularly when we're talking about, you know, undergraduate students and what college looks like, that has been a very specific way for a very long time in terms of the pedagogy of college and, all of that, and I mean down through K-12 as well, right, there's this traditional way of doing things. And so I'm curious to know what mindset shifts are required either for the students, for faculty, like whoever you see as really needing that mindset shift to get people to buy into that idea of place as pedagogy and moving for social change.

Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Yeah, so I'd say the first and I think most important shift that needs to happen is when you're thinking about place as pedagogy is that there's, [sigh] there's a danger in hierarchies

00:10:04
when you think about place as pedagogy, and I think when you're trying to use a place as grounds to educate, it's important to establish networks instead of reinforce hierarchies. So the idea of how do I network with the local business and the community to make sure that we are introducing ideas, you know, the student ideas for a project. One example I can think about is that my students have worked with a local organization to help them develop a self-assessment to be more sustainable in hotels. So it's for hotels and they come up with a self-assessment. And so what was interesting in that process was that, it-- instead of the hotel is looking at the students and saying, "What do they know about sustainability?" and, you know, the strict hierarchy of, "I'm older", "I've been in the field for a really long time", "You have no idea about our budget", "You have no idea about...", you know, what it takes to be sustainable. It broke that hierarchy down and it gave, it empowered the students through our network with them, in our relationship with them, to find a voice and to research what they needed to do to create the self-assessment for hotels.

00:11:08
So what was interesting in that process was my students were working locally with these-- it was a series of hotels in the Lake Placid area, which is a very, you know, it's Lake Placid where our- my College is about 30 minutes from Lake Placid, a 30 minute drive. And it's a popular tourist destination. It was known, they hosted the Olympics there twice in 1932 and 1980. And so it's a big tourist destination, totally for the Olympics, but it's also, outdoor recreation is really popular and hiking and so hotels are a strong economic driver in this region. So my students having the opportunity to create something that could be more sustainable for these hotels was an incredible opportunity and it couldn't have happened without that breakdown of the hierarchies and without the networking experience. And what was interesting too was that in terms of empowering the students instead of trying to control them in that process, I stepped back and I kind of, you know, it was, we were doing this, it actually happened, you know, in a semester that I was partially-- it was a hybrid of the course, we were part in person and part, you know, online and I was able to step back and let them really drive the idea.

00:12:19
So think about innovative ways to approach this, instead of me saying this is what we're going to do, this is, you know why this is important in this hotel and this is why the self-assessment... So they really created that project. So going back to that question, the mindset shift, I think that are required to really strengthen that place as pedagogy is to break down the hierarchies and encourage networks and then I would say empower instead of control and that again, all those, both of those concepts can mean a lot of layers, right? So it can be hierarchies within the educational framework, hierarchies within, you know, the community framework or abroad because we'll be talking about the study abroad a little bit later internationally, and then the empowering instead of controlling, you know, in my example was really about empowering the students instead of strictly saying this is what you're gonna do, and I think the other layer to that was the hotels also trusted the students enough and empowered them enough to let their voice come forward.

00:13:20
And so I think that was a really critical piece in place as pedagogy is allowing that empowerment to come through. So it worked, I think that, you know, it was really great and the way I, you know, know it worked was that hotels were excited to use the end product and this, again, this is a community, a local community example, but this I'll be talking about later some examples of how this can be applied internationally and you know, in the study abroad programs, but, the student and when the hotels were using this tool or thinking about this tool, you know, they were proud to say that it was a student initiative, right? It wasn't something they were saying, like "We came up this idea ourselves, we're sustainable", it was more of the students developed this locally and it just, it really strengthened a lot of ties in the community. So, and I do have to admit this was, you know, I've done several of these programs locally and not all of them are as successful or, you know, easy as this one was, I don't want to say it was easy, it was difficult for the students, but you know, I think it takes some trial and error to come to that.

00:14:23
And I think this one was an example of one that could work, an example of how to break down that hierarchy and empower the students, so.

Lindsay Lyons: It sounds too like you're kind of talking about finding the right partners as well. Like, so not necessarily shifting mindsets, although I think there probably is a requirement to kind of shift people along that continuum, but people who are already at the point where they're like, "Yeah, we're willing to work with students, we're excited to say this was student created", like that's a particular type of partner. It sounds like that you'd want to establish in that network versus to try to convert someone who is very hierarchical, very "I don't want to work with students". It sounds like it's better to partner with the right people right off the bat.

Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Absolutely. And it takes-- it's a lot of vetting that goes through that and it took me quite some time to figure out how to do that, you know, and it's a lot of times it doesn't come to the surface, you know, in terms of what their expectations are with the students. And one thing for me is that you also, in finding that right partner, a lot of times people would be like, "Oh, free help", you know, "A student project, that sounds great", and I have to be really mindful of protecting the students from that, you know, making sure that from a learning perspective that our course objectives are met, that they are empowered in a way that's, you know, from start to finish throughout the class, not just for one week of the class that they have say, but that model stays, you know, throughout the whole semester, So I think you're exactly right.

00:15:46
I think the partner in this is critical, again, not just on the community level, but more thinking of finding partners, for a study abroad experience for place as pedagogy. It's equally, if not more important, so absolutely.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. And yeah, let's talk about study abroad a little bit. So I think one of the things that I think is really critical is taking brave action and developing, you know, programs and structures and practices just like you've been talking about and I know you've done that for a study abroad program. So I don't know if you want to give us an overview of that program or talk about kind of an overview of those brave actions that required to kind of set it all up and then we can go into, you know, what are the challenges and all of that. But I'd love to just get you to introduce that for our listeners to see the great stuff you're doing.
​
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Sure. So the program that I should say this and I think this was a critical part for myself in this process is that I co-- I'm the co-founder, I don't do this alone, you know, I think that would be extra for myself. I need, you know, a partner in this because I think so much of place as pedagogy and especially study abroad is important to self reflect on what's going on, not only for the students, but also for the faculty.

00:16:56
And so, I have a partner, Dr. Eric Holmlund who also works at Paul Smith's College, that I've built the Adirondack to Appenninos Sustainable Parks and Communities Project. That's the name of the project, the study abroad. And it was interesting how this program came to be. So it's a, without speaking for three hours, I'll cut to the chase about it, but it was in 2013 my Chair at the time had said, "Would you be interested in taking students on a study abroad trip to Italy? We have a partner that's looking for a faculty member to go". And I was like, "Who wouldn't want to go on a study abroad trip to Italy? Yes." And so what was interesting, long story short, I was going with another faculty member who fortunately had led several study abroads, so I absolutely, he was a mentor and I learned from Dr. Holmlund through this process. So I went on the trip, I'll start this. So the program itself was designed with the idea of looking at the impacts of sustainable tourism on protected areas. So looking at the social impacts, economic, and environmental. We've used a lot of the United Nations sustainable development goals as a framework. Later on in the program, when we started this, it was in 2013,

00:18:09
so those goals came out later. but the initial program was really focusing on how looking at the impacts of tourism in these protected areas. And so Dr. Holmlund and I were trying to figure out when we're creating this program, how can we make sure this is a generative experience for the students that it's something that we are actually making a difference in the country that we're working with, but not determining what we should be doing that's good for us based on our learning objectives, but more importantly, and you know, kind of equally balancing our learning objectives with the needs of the local community. So, we were very fortunate in identifying administrators from a Unesco site, it's a Unesco biosphere reserve, so it's a protected landscape that has, it's extremely biodiverse. It's incredible hiking areas, really great for outdoor recreation. So the idea was how can we work with these local partners to identify, you know, learning experience for the students that gave back to the local community but was also meeting our learning objectives.

00:19:14
So, that was the bit the framework for this project, the whole project. So what happened over the years as Dr. Holmlund and I had worked on this project, we were trying to figure out as the-- when we started, we knew that this was going to be multi-year engagement, multi-year partnership. And the idea behind that was that finding an in-country partner that communicated clearly about what the community's needs for, that understood our purpose, right? So like, I think a lot of the mistakes in study abroads, I know that when I was first thinking about study abroad, a lot of the mistakes were, you know, you're going, it's-- the idea was you're going as a vacation, right? This isn't tourism, you know, in terms of the study abroad experience, it's not a vacation for students, it's education and so how can we make sure that this multi-year relationship is focused on education, is meeting the community needs, and also understanding that in terms of giving back to our school that we-- Eric and I, the-- professor Holmlund and I designed the program that if either one of us left that the program could continue with our school.

00:20:20
So like if for some reason, you know, that one of the faculty members changed, that another faculty member could pick this up and continue. So I think that it was, that was really important to us. So in any event that was the project, the Adirondack Appennino Sustainable Parks and Community Project. So when we first developed this and you start-- first started running the trip we, you know, Eric fortunately was again, he had a lot more experience than I did in study abroads. I had never run a study abroad and so I was not prepared for students being afraid on the plane. Students, you know had, you know, having withdrawal from their cell phones, you know, students, you know..., you name it, I was completely unprepared. And so what was great was that we had the opportunity in our school to do pre-trip. The way we run it is we run a full semester before of pre-trip coursework preparation, cultural preparation, some basic language preparation, some, you know, some context about the political, social, economic context in the area,

00:21:24
environmental, you know, and we used the Adirondacks, like where our school is based as a point of differentiation, so again that place as pedagogy, the Adirondacks was used as a comparison to, in this case we were looking at Unesco site in Italy. And so what was beneficial is that the students knew the Adirondacks and then when we would eventually get on the ground in Italy they'd be like, "Oh, this is what's similar, this is what's different" culturally, socially, economically from our areas. So we used that full semester to kind of build that up. When we first started it I don't know if it was as productive but as we went through the seven years we saw what was really important right? So beginning that self reflective piece, thinking about again how your intersectional lens of how you experience your own culture, you know, your own perceptions of race, your own perceptions of religion before you go, not just waiting 'til you're on the ground there. So we started to build in that self reflection piece even, you know, when we were still in the US. And so I think over the years we've-- that was one piece that we strengthened considerably.

00:22:30
The other thing that we did very intentionally was we always had an interdisciplinary team. It was never just one major and I did that because I was also, I introduced this and was pretty strict about this because I saw the benefit in all of, I teach a lot of communication courses too at the school. And so I see the benefit of having interdisciplinary teams together, especially in communication courses, but the study abroad course, I really wanted to see the different perspectives and avoid groupthink and I also think it challenges students to learn and appreciate and see things outside of their own field, right? So we have some biology students that go, we have culinary students, we have sustainability students, we have hospitality students, we have recreation. And so I think, this is just my opinion, I'd be interested to hear my partner's opinion on this, but the most successful trips are really with the students that have a wide range of perspectives and experiences within their field.

00:23:31
You know, I had taken-- Eric wasn't able to come one year, so I had taken a professor, her background is in Biology and she also is in, I know, has studied a variety of different aspects of biology and seeing and experiencing Italy, the same territory that I've been traveling to, through her eyes changed my perspective, right? And so in turn, you know, in years following that it absolutely shifted the way that I approached the course because it was, it made me more sensitive to other disciplines and so with that I think the students also bring the different disciplines is really rich in terms of diversity and perspectives. So that's a little bit about the program that we've developed. And I think it also gives the actions that our, our school trusted us to develop this. So when we first started, I think that was when we were talking about, like, brave actions are required. I think what was brave and what our university did or our college did was that they trusted Eric and I to build this program to set up scholarship opportunities.

00:24:39
We didn't set that up. The school had that built in: international study abroad scholarship opportunities. But they would carve out, you know, it was a significant amount of money that students can get up to $1,000 per trip. And so I think that's a significant opportunity. And then, so in terms of the brave actions, having that funding opportunity and then also I think the other brave action our administration took was that in times that our school financially, you know, couldn't afford to pay us, meaning the instructors, as an overload, to go, they figured out ways to fold the study abroad experience like into our normal course work. So it was, they were taking risks. They were thinking outside of the box in terms of, they knew the value of this. We showed them the value of what the effect this had on the students, the place as pedagogy specifically in this case, in terms of study abroad. So they continued to support that and I think that it, without our administration's support and them seeing, figuring out ways to make sure that we can continue the trip, to continue our relationship with our Unesco partners, you know, in Italy,

00:25:47
and then eventually we did the trip in South Africa too and I'll speak to that later. I think that the trust of the administration, the flexibility, the innovativeness, they were, they were always open to us trying this. And I think what was also interesting on our partners on the ground, we made sure that, you know, it wasn't, you know, I think that my-- I cringe when I think about this idea of, you know, the white savior-ism specifically and I-- and our trip to, you know, South Africa prepping the students of why that is, you know, it's-- we need to be thinking about this on a deep level. And so what I think was important in our context and our, you know, preparation for these programs (I'm rambling a bit...) [inaudible] for these programs was that they--, our administration really believed in what we were doing and tried innovative ways to continue supporting it after we showed them the benefits. And so we wanted to make sure that what we were doing for the local communities in Italy and South Africa lasted, it wasn't something that would just go away when we left after the two or three weeks when we were there, it was something that they can continue to integrate and so we set it up that the projects would last long term and it didn't require extra resources that were unreasonable, it didn't require you know additional things that they didn't have.

00:27:11
So I think that was, that was a key part to it.
Lindsay Lyons: That's so helpful that you highlighted, I think you threw out some challenges there, you threw out some brave actions there. That was so helpful to kind of hear how this is all coming together and the focus for you as a co-creator of this program in terms of what you wanted to have happen and I think as we continue the conversation I think that will come out more and more in terms of the choices that you made or the experiences and specific anecdotes that kind of highlight how that focus has become even more precise. I know you threw out some challenges but were there other challenges that you wanted to share around, you know, developing curriculum or setting all this up in terms of the city abroad program really being what you wanted it to be?
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Yeah, so I'll share kind of two aspects of this. So I think in terms of the biggest challenges with curriculum development for study abroad programs, there's a lot in the literature about this, right? So if there's a lot of information about study abroad, like how to, how to develop the curriculum correctly and then, you know, what challenges are in terms of actually executing it on the ground.

00:28:17
So I think what with some of the challenges, especially with the service learning focused ones are that I mentioned this earlier that a lot of, for cost reasons and for time reasons, I shouldn't say a lot, but certain study abroad programs are contracted out to third party vendors, so when you're coming up and developing a curriculum for study abroad and a third party vendor is actually the one that's executing it or private businesses actually executing it and you, as the faculty member have less control over it. That certainly changes the outcomes. In my opinion, my experience, it changed the outcome. The other aspect, I did touch on this briefly, but the idea of when you're developing a curriculum, it in some circumstances, fortunately we tried to avoid this, but in some circumstances, the idea, especially when you're contracting sometimes and I shouldn't say all third party vendors are not terrible and all private businesses for study abroads are not terrible. I think they're actually excellent. There are really strong ones.

00:29:18
I think there are-- the ones that are focused on the service learning and really creating those generative experience, not, you know, focused on tourism, but more education I think is what's key. So I think the idea of, when you're fine-- if you are choosing to develop a curriculum and you choose a third party or private business to execute that, it's important to select something or an organization that is prioritizing the educational piece and not just taking them around to the pretty sights and you know, kind of skimming the surface of what's actually happening. The other aspect of curriculum development for study abroad programs and I think the biggest challenge and something to be aware of, especially when you're going in non-Western cultures or you know, it's critically important is that being aware of the use of colonialist language that you're talking about, in the way that you're framing this with the students because I think a lot of it is from a Western perspective and when you're going to a country, you know that say you're going to Uganda or in my case we've taken students South Africa, it's recognizing the language that you're using in the curriculum and how you're introducing different sources, you know, not just using Western sources. I think, you know, it's-- with me, I was very, you know, I had taken a different professor than Eric on this.

00:30:40
I was working with a cultural anthropologist that went with me to South Africa and it was incredible because he was an excellent resource. It was Professor Joe Henderson, also at Paul Smith's College, he was an incredible resource at helping find and source, you know, Native South African, you know, speakers and Native South african written books and videos and podcasts, right? And so we would use that as a pre-trip resource to compare and contrast, so use-- developing that curriculum that integrated cultural relevant pedagogy and then also being mindful and then really intentional about finding thing-- resources from the country that you're visiting and not just from a Western perspective and what we did was we challenged the students to compare and contrast it and man, that was a pretty intense, you know, class conversation that we enjoyed and I think it was great even before we were on the ground and yeah, we used that throughout the trip. So I think in terms of curriculum development it's, you know, there's several challenges I think, you know, just to highlight it's really... when you're developing the curriculum, be cognizant if you are using a third party to make sure that the third party or private business is, you know, prioritizing educational piece over the tourism piece, being cognizant of the language that you're using, you know, that it's not the colonialist language that, you know, you're introducing into the curriculum.

00:32:06
And then also, you know, thinking about... thinking about ways to introduce resources that are not just from the Western perspective, you know, when you're developing the curriculum. So yeah.
Lindsay Lyons: Those are great suggestions and I was just thinking of the colonialist language, I mean that comes out in a lot of different ways. One specific example, I was-- we were talking before we started recording that I was able to do some study abroad trips and one of the ones that resonates with me is in the north of Ireland and I say the north of Ireland very precisely because I learned in that pre-trip phase in the course that we had leading up to it, that choosing to say, you know, Northern Ireland is like a particular frame, like you're supporting the imperialism of Northern Ireland by England and so the north of Ireland is cognizant of Ireland as a republic. And so just that little tiny shift, I mean, things like that are so nuanced and if we didn't study it ahead of time, I never would have realized in speaking to different people that that nuance is present in language that people who are living there speaking and that I am coming off in certain ways to certain people.

00:33:13
And so I think that's just one tiny example, but I think that's so powerful, but you're naming all of those things. And actually, if I can continue just with that vein of study abroad trips in my personal experience, I have had so many, Nicaragua, Ireland, South Africa, Mauritius, I mean just so many different places that I've been able to go and study and I felt great about myself in the moment, like "Yes, I'm doing this really cool work" and looking back really what the experiences are with the lens that I have now, they really felt in many cases more like what has been called poverty tourism or white savior-ism and they weren't super generative. I wasn't really working with an organization on the ground to have that sustainable impact like you're talking about. I wasn't always challenging my ways of thinking and so I think that's such a challenge, you know, within country partners and having a study abroad experience. So how do you really set the stage? And I think you kind of talked about this a little bit already, but how do you set the stage with that specifically in mind, that we don't want to just be taken to sites that are looking at economic poverty or other situations and feeling like we're not contributing and just kind of looking at people's hardship and almost like, you know, trauma and seeing that as the purpose of the trip, is to bear witness to trauma.

00:34:38
I think that's such a challenging line to walk in terms of recognizing what is happening and also being generative in partnering with people. So I'm so curious to know any other tips that you have for people or experiences that you've had that we're learning moments, or kind of recognizing what you wanted the program to really be in evolution there.
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Yeah, so I would say in terms of how to-- how I tried to set the stage with in-country partners and with the students before they leave so they have more generative experience. And first I just, I admire how many places you went to and I would love to, in another conversation, hear about all that because I think so much of what I've, you know, done and learned through this study abroad experience is also hearing about other study abroad trips of how I can improve and tweak mine and getting feedback on it. So that's incredible that you had that opportunity and I think it's so valuable. So I think in terms of how I try to set the stage and again this came from trial and error and learning myself, I want to be super, you know, transparent about this. I was very naive when I first started doing the study abroad experiences and reflecting back on it, you know, it's just-- it took me experiencing and admittedly messing up, right, you know, not understanding the impacts of that white savior-ism and poverty tourism and all of those things.

00:35:55
So I think I want to just put that out there and admit, you know, I absolutely, you know, learned from that myself. So it's something that, it didn't just happen, you know, this isn't perfect, it was, you know, learned over time. So the things that I try to do now after learning from that, in terms of setting the stage with in-country partners and the students before they leave, I think, there's a tool I'm sure you're familiar with. So Geert Hofstede came up with this idea of the cultural dimensions. So these cultural dimensions, what-- it's cool about them and I think there is some, I tell students to take it with a grain of salt, what they do is they introduce different lenses of looking at cultural. So for instance, they look at is the culture, you know, based on his dimensions. And again, this is a very specific framework so you have to take with a grain of salt, but does it tend to be a more collectivist or individualistic society? Is it more feminine or masculine? Is it more, you know, where they, I can't think of the word for it, but are they more in terms of showing wealth, you know, how-- what is their likely propensity to showing wealth?

00:37:02
And so I use that as a basis for discussion because the tool is actually incredible. They allow you to compare it to other countries. So I'll have the students as an activity before we leave, look at that. So look at first as a comparison to America because that's what their context is and what they know the best. I'll have them compare it to another country that they're also interested in. So say for instance, if we were taking the students to Italy, I'd have them compare it first, you know, using Hofstede cultural dimensions, looking at how does Italy approach? Are they more of an individualistic society or collectivist in comparison to America? And then I'll have them look at, say, students very interested in japanese culture. So I'll have them compare Italy to Japan in terms of the range of collectivist versus individual. And then we have a discussion about it, right? We reflect on it, what surprised them, what, you know, did they expect that and how I have them try to think about how they will see this playing out on the ground when we're there, like thinking about now that we've talked about this, like how could this look like. And then when we're in country I pull that back in and I'll say, "Remember when we were looking at that? Was that accurate?" and sometimes it's not.

00:38:12
And I think that's equally as valuable as a learning tool when it's not. We can say, "That's cool, Hofstede. We got that.", that is, you know, very-- that-- insightful that we saw that. But we also noticed this. And I think what's interesting is that when you use any of these tools it's not specific to Hofstede is that the students and from your experience, you know, this was developed during a certain time period, right? So we're in, you know, 2021 2022 and so this can change, you know, these like, the countries evolve and experiences evolve, economic, political situations change. So when this tool was developed, the dimensions can also change with that. And so I think that that's also a valuable learning opportunity. So in terms of pre-trip preparation, I do an extensive amount. We try to do it for a semester long, so it'll run for, you know, three-- around three months, you know, to prepare them to think critically about this and not just--, I don't do, you know, it's-- yes, I'll have some power point slides but so much of it is discussion based, I avoid, like I-- it's not-- you're--, they're not, they're not learning anything by me just talking about, "Here's what you're gonna see in Italy." It's more of like, let's look at these dimensions, let's think critically about what this is gonna look like and then have them, you know, reflect about how they think about this on the ground, how they're feeling about this and what they're actually seeing on the ground through those dimensions.

00:39:30
And so that's one of many tools that we kind of integrate. Another piece that I've used in this experience too is a lot of-- our school offers a pretty interesting recreation-- outdoor recreation program and there's a lot of leadership development and that goes into these outdoor recreations. So in terms of like, you know, the-- just group dynamics and understanding like how groups function, you know, and the idea of when you're experiencing a foreign culture, the idea that, you know the norming storming, you know, the, you know in terms of group dynamics, understanding how your experience of a place and learning about this place changes based on your group dynamics. So if one person, one student or one faculty member in the group is having a very, you know, strong opinion about x, you know, maybe it's about the food, "I hate the taste of this food," or "I love the sound of this language," or you know, "This is beautiful," it shifts and it can, you know, depending on the group dynamic change the way that you experience that.

00:40:32
So in the pre-trip planning, we also discussed that: looking at the group dynamics, getting to know each other in the context. So I have them do activities about you know, it's a five finger... I can't remember off the top my head, but it's like, "What am I going to bring to this? What do I fear most about it? What's something somebody wouldn't know about me? What's...", you know, those type of like team building activities that help them understand that because we're going in a group, it's-- you're not just experiencing this thing on your own, this is an educational aspect and you're experiencing an-- another culture with other people through your own lens but also understanding that their lenses could affect your experience too. And my lens as an instructor can affect your experience. And I own that, that was something I never did in the beginning, but I've learned especially from the study abroad trip I ran in South Africa, the way that I framed South Africa before for them was very different of how they experienced it on the ground. And the students were very vocal about that and I appreciated it so much. Because I had introduced, I had lived in South Africa for three months working on a Unesco project.

00:41:36
And so I had, I mean, I had very, you know, deep feelings and beliefs and you know, thoughts on South Africa that I wanted to communicate to them and I tried to do it as broad a way as possible. But I realized in the pre-trip planning, the way that I framed it my lenses, you know, influenced the way that, you know, they-- that they were perceiving different aspects of apartheid or they were perceiving different aspects of the socioeconomic situation. And so what was great, and I think that because I just did the trip with them in 2020 and right before the pandemic in January 2020. So I just did the trip with them was that we used that as a learning opportunity, they were great and they were, I felt encouraged that they were empowered enough to say that, you know what we were-- when we were doing the self reflections in the country, they were saying, you know, "Remember in class, when you were telling us about...", we'll say Winnie Mandela, right? So I was giving, you know, I'd given them, you know, a discussion about Winnie Mandela, and they said, you know, "We were expecting her to be this great freedom fighter, but we learned on the ground here that there's a lot of other layers that people view her here.

00:42:43
They, you know, she's not, you know, and so it was through our interviews and in-country experiences, it introduced different complexities to perceptions that were not introduced them before. So I think what was, it's valuable to leave space for that and try to, you know, I think the one thing I learned was that, and I always say this and that I prepare them by saying, "It's never gonna go as you planned. Our study abroad trip is never going to go as you plan. Poop is gonna hit the fan. We're gonna have to like rethink things, it's not going to be what you think". And I think allowing myself to pivot and learn from those moments where I could have been better in terms of the pre-trip prep or thought about introducing different resources to use that and allow them to have a voice, or empower them enough to have a voice in their self reflection too, about it. And so, so yeah, I think that's one of the critical pieces. The other, in terms of the other ways I set the stage for in-country, you know, the in-country partners and with the students is that I do try as much as I can to think about de-centering the american perspective and the western perspective.

00:43:55
I mentioned that before, but I think that is a really important piece coming from New York, coming from America. How can we make sure that these students, especially students that haven't traveled before, start to think about, you know, we're not the only perspective and where we're going, you know, when we go to Italy, you know, there's a lot of, you know similarities that we can find in our own cultures with Italian cultures in terms of economics, in terms of environmental approaches. When you go to South Africa, it's a different ballgame and so understanding and starting to introduce those resources to the students before we get there is important. Again, as I mentioned, different books, different videos from Native South Africans, is a really important piece. So the last thing I want to say is that it's-- in terms of the prep and how to stage it is that in terms of-- with partners, I-- we mentioned this or you and I mentioned this earlier is that the partners are the critical piece, right? So with the strong partner, they help you set this all up.

00:44:57
Right? So it's something that I feel very fortunate in the partners that we've had in South Africa and also in Italy and that we've kept for a long time. They understand that what our goals are and that we're looking to create experiences that aren't just riding in a bus, finger pointing, and trying to understand a culture from a bus window, but instead on the ground to see like what, you know, again, a lot of our projects focus on tourism, looking at sustainable models of tourism. And so in South Africa, not just going looking from a bus window and driving through Soweto, which, you know, it's in terms of looking at the townships of-- that were created from the apartheid, like understanding Soweto, not just as an economically depressed area and an area that is, you know, again, as you mentioned earlier, looking at poverty tourism and driving through and saying, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe people live in these conditions," but instead looking at other models of tourism that for instance, we work with a company called Dreamcatcher South Africa

00:45:57
that's created a program called Wasteland Graceland. And so what it was was that it was a township that was built outside, it was built during apartheid era. And so the blacks were moved from the main cities to this community and it was right near a waste dump. And so over the years, the waste dump had polluted their water. It's created several health issues over the years for the local community. So over time this Dreamcatcher has helped develop a project, not only to clean up the waste site in order to clean the water and reduce the health issues, but they also started a program that to use the waste from that site to train the local community members and teach them how to make jewelry, how to make products for the home out of the waist. They got funding from the local government to create, like the-- to buy machines that actually make jewelry and can create home goods and so now they sell them to tourists. And so now that area is not just driving through a bus, like pointing there, but instead telling the story of Wasteland Graceland, how that became to be, like what that waste site looked like, how long term as a tourism model

00:47:11
this works, like how this is, you know, empowered the local community and you know, again over time, this is giving back in so many ways instead of again just riding through on a bus and saying, you know, this is, you know where Nelson Mandela once lived and then, you know, passing through Soweto. So I think that, you know, showing different models and understanding that white savior-ism in study abroad trips is real. And so the idea of how can you create and find a partner that will help with de-centering the american perspective and not having it as a white savior, but instead as an educational experience that also can give back to the local community in some way and it's not easy and it's-- I think it changes based on the country that you're working with, based on the community that you are working with within that country and just truly listening and giving. The other thing I recognize is that oftentimes when you first meet a partner, it takes several conversations to identify the true community needs because I think at first it's-- "Well what are your objectives for the class?"

00:48:16
And so I tell them that, but then it takes continual converse-- "Well what can we really do to help?" and like, to give back and you know, with that program, the Wasteland Graceland, what was really-- what they needed was a perspective of how to improve it from tourists. So we gave them that, we had said, you know, "This is what we really liked about the students did a survey," and like said, "This is what we really liked about it. This is what, from a tourism perspective could make it really interesting, and here's what we think that could do to help however, this is from our perspective," and I-- we had them recognize this is from an american perspective. We talked about how different cultures, different South African cultures could experience that differently. And so how that could be, you know, more inclusive to not just white tourists from America, but how this can, you know, entice you know different communities and other members of the South African community to enjoy what they have and to see all of the cool things that they're doing. So again, I think that's-- the pre-trip prep is critical across the board and understanding that if you can figure out a way to de-center the american perspective, that's I think a huge step in the battle with this and I don't want to say battle, but the huge step in terms of creating a really interesting and generative study abroad experience.

00:49:31
Lindsay Lyons: So I love all the things that you have shared so far. There's so much to consider. If there is a person listening who either is teaching at the undergrad level or even, I'm even thinking like some high school teachers who might be interested in a short term study abroad or something. What advice do you have for any educator who might be interested in developing a study abroad program like yours, one that's focused on service learning, that's focused on advancing justice, de-centering whiteness and de-centering, you know, American-ness. And you know that could be a range of things and then I usually ask a final, like call-to-action question of "What is one thing?", right? There might be, like five things they could do, but what is one thing that they could do if they're just getting started with developing? What's that, that kind of first thing they could do?
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: So I think in terms of the "What advice for the educators", is that, you know, in terms of-- as you're developing this, considering what a more inclusive and reflective, I think those two words, you know, it's I think again that inclusive, you know, it can be so many things, but figuring out a way to introduce a more inclusive, reflective approach to place-based pedagogy.

00:50:37
So I mentioned the beginning of our discussion about how I did that on the local level with the class within our own community, but also abroad. Right? So how can you figure out a way to make the experience not only beneficial for the students in terms of achieving your learning objectives, but more importantly, how is this helping the community needs with avoiding that white savior-ism right? Especially, you know, in, you know, abroad context. So I think reflective-- reflecting critically first before you design anything. Right? So I think a lot of it what I've learned and my growth in this has been through self reflection and how-- what should that look like and start to do some research in the literature that's out there and talking to others, you know, I think that's-- it's a very, you know, based start, you know, in terms of finding that. In terms of the second piece of advice I would give is finding, and we talked about how important this is, finding a strong in-country partner that can help you see that vision and understand how you want to use this experiential learning opportunity that-- it isn't, you know, just poverty tourism that you're looking for, that you're looking for the service learning focus project that's generative to students but also can benefit the local community, you know abroad in some way.

00:51:56
So, and then I would say the third and this is something again, it's-- I just have seen the benefits, consider introducing an interdisciplinary team. I think that not only in terms of the faculty that you are considering bringing on the trip, you know, if it's one or two. But you know, having somebody for instance, my background, you know, I majored in communications and you know, my research focuses in terms of the social impacts of tourism, but my partners that I've taken on the study abroad trips, my-- Eric Holmlund that I referenced in the beginning, his background's in environmental science, the professor that I went to South Africa with, he's a cultural anthropologist. So I think that the diversity and disciplines really enriches the experience for the faculty and also for the students and it brings a diversity of perspectives to the host community that you're working with. So, and it certainly avoids groupthink. It's challenging, I do have to say, you know, when you're developing curriculum for an interdisciplinary team and a study abroad. It's hard, right?

00:52:58
So, you know, when I'm working with just communication students or you know, and just, we'll say tourism and hospitality students, you know, it's a bit easier to think about what's going to resonate with them, but when you have an interdisciplinary team, it's challenging to say, you know, "I don't know a lot of things about biology", right? So, you know, and how do you speak to them? And I think that, but in the end, I think that what I found is that when you have that interdisciplinary team, it gives... it gives so much back not only to the students and it introduces a degree of tolerance, I think also between disciplines, right? So there's tolerance and in terms of, you know, their silos in schools, right? So I know in our school it's like the hospitality kids hang out with hospitality kids, the forestry kids hang out with the forestry, you know, biology hangs out with biology, sustainability. And so this helps them develop teams and understand and appreciate not only the benefit of diversity in terms of race, religion, you know, cultural, but also in terms of the benefits of diversity and disciplines and how to work with that.

00:54:04
You know, it's-- in the beginning, you know, when I would have, you know, the students together, I didn't-- I wasn't completely sure of how to best integrate that, but then over time we figured out models of how to do that. And that's really about you, in terms of the discussions, encouraging their voices, "What does this look like from your field?", "How does this look like in your field?" and "What could this mean for say, your field?" You know, for instance, what does this look like from a, you know, environmental science perspective? Okay, so how would that influence, like from a tourism perspective? So connecting those, taking it as an opportunity for connection. And so yeah, that's-- I think that's the main three pieces of advice. So I'd say first, again thinking about that more inclusive and reflective approach that place-based pedagogy. The second being researching and finding a strong in-country partner. Usually they come not through a basic internet search. I want to say ours came from, like our in-country partnerships came from our professional and personal networks. It wasn't just like this general, like broad google search. It was like, "Hey do you happen to know somebody that lives here?"

00:55:05
And then it was like connect, connect, connect, you know, and you end up with a really strong partner. And then lastly, that considering forming that interdisciplinary team of students and faculties, I think it's really, you know, that diversity of fields introduces a diversity of perspective and also a degree of understanding and tolerance and reflectiveness that doesn't happen if it's just, you know, the same field and the same, you know, students and faculty.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that idea of expanding, you know, the notion of diversity beyond like our typical, you know, identities that we hold to something like discipline or even if people are-- haven't defined, you know, their major yet or something just like the way someone is thinking or their passions, it's so helpful to be able to add that dimension into thinking about intersectionally who we are. So that's super cool, thank you for that. And one of the final questions I'd like to ask just for fun is what is something that you have been learning about lately.
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: So the, as you know, and I think the-- our PhD program that we were both in encourages this, so absolutely lifelong leaders.

00:56:10
So right now I'm focusing on, I'm looking at responsible, inclusive leadership in affecting or mitigating the social impacts of tourism. So, you know, typically those two topics: responsible inclusive leadership and like the social impacts of tourism have been two totally separate fields and there's a really, you know, extensive body of literature about both. And I'm trying to figure out how they come together. And so I've been looking specifically at Dr. Lize Booysen who, you know of, a professor in our PhD program, her work on responsible inclusive leadership. And then recently, Anna Spenceley had published a-- it's basically a handbook for sustainable tourism for practitioners and a discussion about leadership in different context within sustainable tourism. So, I've been trying to look at both of those together and figuring out how responsible inclusive leadership can potentially help to mitigate the social impacts of tourism.

00:57:12
So that's something I've been nerding out on recently.
Lindsay Lyons: It's awesome. And I love how this episode has basically just been a testament to those days, kind of emerging. Like, this study abroad program is a perfect example of how those things come together, so super cool.
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Thanks. Thank you.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. And finally, where can listeners learn more about you or connect with you online?
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Yeah. So, on instagram, my instagram is @kcerialo. So it's K C E R I A L O. And then I'm also on LinkedIn. It's just my first and last name. Again it's Kelly, and then it's-- K E L L Y and my last name is C E R I A L O. And yes, I'm happy to hear from any listeners if you are interested in developing a study abroad program. I am more than happy to speak with you., I'm certainly open and transparent about my experiences. Like I said from the beginning, I've learned through trial and error and I think I've grown from this process and continue to learn each time. And I think again, it's-- I'm happy to help anyone that's interested and I'm very interested also to hear about others' experiences.

00:58:14
So if you've had other experiences and study abroad and whether it's good or bad, I would love to hear because I also learn from that. So I would welcome and you sharing any experiences and certainly, you know, happy to share some tips and some lessons that I've learned through not so great experiences too, you know, that I'm happy to share with others. But I'd love to hear, you know, some of your experiences too.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. And I encourage people to reach out and chat about that because I think that's where the really cool stuff happens, where we innovate together and think about new possibilities. So that's awesome. Dr. Kelly Cerialo, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Dr. Kelly Cerialo: Thank you so much Lindsay. This was incredible. I'm honored to be your guest and I look forward to continuing to talk about study abroad with you and other interesting Teachership opportunities. So keep up the great work and thank you again.
[upbeat violin music]
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time, leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Links:

• UNESCO Biosphere Reserves
  UNESCO Champlain-Adirondack Biosphere Reserve
  UNESCO Tuscan Emilian Appenino Biosphere Reserve
  UNESCO Ledro Alps and Judicaria Biosphere Reserve
  Tour Operators: Marco Polo Institute and Dolomit Learning
  Bioregionalism (book by Michael Vincent McGinnis)​
• Find Dr. Kelly Cerialo on Insta: @kcerialo and LinkedIn: Kelly Cerialo

​​
​Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

Lindsay Lyons: I'm excited for you to hear from today's guest who's coming to us all the way from South Africa : Dr Francois Naude. His experience in evolutionary biology and science education led to him receiving the national teacher's award. He trained more than 1500 teachers and is now dedicated to assisting teachers and school leaders to discover their superpowers and ensure that every teacher can teach like the superheroes they are. He works with teachers and school leaders by enveloping them in a community of practice. He shares his learnings from science, psychology and school leadership so you can solve the challenges that you face in the classroom, staff room and in life. This conversation was recorded in September 15, 2021. Let's get to the episode.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive.

00:01:05
I'm a former teacher, leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself. You're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Francois Naude, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Dr. Francois Naude: Thank you Lindsay. It's great being here.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited to have you today. I would love to start with a different way of beginning, which you just introduced me to. And I love this idea where can listeners learn more about you or connected with you online? And the reason we're asking that is your brilliant idea for like being able to follow along and look at some of your social media as people are listening to the episode.
Dr. Francois Naude: Yeah, well we know people are multitasking, we've got double screens and three screens while we're working.

00:02:10
So um I like telling people they can, they can go and stalk me on on my website at www.staysuper.co.za I'm from South Africa. So that's the z a part at the end of www.staysuper.co.za and they can go and stalk me in the work I do while we have the conversation.
Lindsay Lyons: Excellent. Thanks so much. And so I love this first question. Just diving right into really, what are dreams for education are Dr. Bettina Love talks about the idea of freedom dreaming and she describes these as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So with that in mind, what is that dream that you have for the fields?
Dr. Francois Naude: My big dream would be that we revolutionize the education system in such a way that we assist learners in self discovery in that they can take charge of their own learning that it is a self directed type of approach where the one size fits all kind of education, I don't think fits within the 21st century.

00:03:13
So the more we can give autonomy to our learners, the more we can drive towards their interest and self directed learning, the more injustices will be able to to eliminate. Because everybody's got a different um interest has got different learning trajectory for themselves, laid out. They can go and take agency and destroy or eliminate the injustices in their own lives.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that and different things resonate with different folks, right? And then I love that, that's such a personalized vision as well of like a dream for education. So that is great as you think about, you know, the you work with a lot of teachers, a lot of leaders and and thinking about, you know, working towards that dream of being able to personalize the learning in such a way where people, students and and adults even can really teach and learn and grow within that framework you just described, what are the kind of either barriers, challenges kind of ways that we need to shift away from traditional thinking perhaps to this new way of thinking, What are the things you've seen either be successful and people shift over their mindsets to that dream or what are the challenges that you've seen in people kind of trying to shift to that.

00:04:29
Dr. Francois Naude: There's a few things that get in the way of this. The first one of course is legacy thinking the whole fact that we've been doing it in a specific way for a long time. It's been working for us, or at least there's not a lot of resistance. So in the short term it's working. So let's just stick with what we know and in that essence, we really just keep on being busy in education. School leaders are busy. Teachers are busy. Whenever I work with teaching and the coaching I do, they always tell me I'm so busy, I'm so busy. I just can't get time for everything. And then my question to them is, well, are you busy moving forward or are you moving towards? And that's a big difference. That a lot of people are moving forward. We do what needs to be done in the classroom. We do what needs to be done in the community or in the school. But if we don't have a clear victory condition, if we don't have a clear goal, we're working towards, we'll just keep on remaining busy and we'll still be stuck in the mindset of the status quo and the innovation, the change doesn't happen for individuals who just keep on being busy.

00:05:41
So we need to be very intentional and the school leaders that I work with that are intentional about the change they want to bring about in the school. They are the ones that, you know, they're part of communities of practice their part of professional learning networks and they try and broaden their horizons and see what the options are available to them. Taking that and just experimenting.
And I think with that comes a lot of courage because it's easy for me to say, you know what we need to be innovative, we need to change the way in which we eat, but there's a lot of courage that needs to go with it. Somebody that is willing to take the first step, even if it's a small minor change they want to bring about that typically leads to the first, like I just want to say a chain reaction within changes in the school. So just changing that one little thing that you feel is going to affect change and then taking that scientific mindset to it. Like, well, let's let's measure, let's see what the outcome was. Are we moving towards our hypothesis?

00:06:42
Are we moving towards the goal or are we just moving forward?
The framework that I've chosen to build everything around? And the work that I do is that of being a super teacher. The program that I've started, the talks that I give to schools, whether it's being online or in person at the school is framed around teaching like a superhero. Because I believe teachers and the great teachers are superheroes to the learners in the classroom. So when within this frame we need to understand that education is in a crisis and definitely in my country, it is a big pain point and I've seen that around the world, that there is, there needs a lot of disruption to come in education.
And if we are in a crisis, who are we hoping towards, what are we hoping for is the savior is some form of hero that's going to step in and save us from the crisis. And I believe teachers are those role models. Teachers are those beacons of hope in communities and that's why I believe strongly that teachers need to be super teachers and not just your mediocre teachers or average teachers.

00:09:09
And unfortunately there are many mediocre teachers and it's that mindset of well, how can we improve how can we take the first step to solving the challenges or improving my community or at least just improving my own life? Because the I think one of the challenges is that our personal lives get in the way of what magic can happen in the classroom. If a teacher is struggling personally, that often spills over into into the classroom. So what's been working quite well is these individual sessions or group sessions that we have with teachers. So the teachers like a superhero mastermind, The teachers who are part of it can on a regular basis say, well, here's my challenge. I'm struggling with the following, can we within the team of Avengers, if we can take the metaphor a bit further, if we've got a group of super teachers together now we can start collaborating because where my weakness is, you might have that strength and in these communities of practice we discover that and then we learn new strategies, new methodologies that we can bring into the classroom and affect the change.

00:10:22
Lindsay Lyons: Oh I love that so much. Okay, so and I'm thinking about all the themes to in terms of, you know, some of the stuff that I do and talk about a lot of the podcast that's totally connected here. So I'm just thinking, my first question was you know as you were talking about being a super teacher super teaching like a superhero. You know, what is what do you define as, you know, being a super teacher super teaching like a superhero because for me I'm thinking that element of collaboration you just brought in at the end really resonates. So I'm thinking even collaboration with students and you you started with this dream of you know, a personalized environment. So just teaching like a superhero and I know the words hero and savior kind of conjure up a certain certain image. Does that also mean you know, knowing when to step back, Does that also mean knowing when to let students lead or two to collaborate with students in addition to their colleagues. Like what kind of definition do you have for teaching in that way.
Dr. Francois Naude: So it's a difficult one because I mean, teachers are so individualized and there's no stock standard answer to that. And I've made it my professional mission to go and discover the traits of a super teacher.

00:11:28
And that's what I share in the public talk. Um, that when I do talks at schools, it's what are the three? I would also say bare minimum attributes or characteristics of a super teacher. And um, I would love to share it with you. So we, we start off and I believe that even though we say we are the super teachers, a super teacher understands that they are not the hero of the story. That the champion is in the chair. If we lose sight of that, then we become egotistical teacher.
Because a lot of teachers feel that you know, I am the hero. If I step into the classroom and you say that I'm everything, you guys need to listen to me, I'm this oracle of knowledge bow down before me, then you're a mediocre teacher, you're a very, very average teacher. It's the ones that understand that my purpose here isn't to be in the limelight. My purpose is to be the sage on the stage, is to be the guide on the side.

00:12:29
It's somebody that's going to support the hero, which is the learner on their journey to victory. So that's the first thing that a super teacher does is realizing that they are not the heroes of the story.
The second thing that super teachers do is they disrupt distraction. There are so many distractions for our learners and especially with hybrid learning, online learning, the distractions are just being amplified. So what a super teacher does is they've got these hacks, these tips and tricks to ensure that they can maintain attention. And I always say like in the in the discourse of superheroes, they super teachers are the Ironman and the Batman kind of superhero. You know, you get superheroes that needs to be bitten by a radioactive spider in order to get their superpower or you get no these superheroes that are accidentally became heroes like there was a radioactive explosion and now they got their superpowers, but that's not the kind of superhero that teachers should be.

00:13:36
Teachers are the Ironman, the Batman, the people with the utility belts that can use tools to there that's at their disposal to hack attention. And unfortunately, I mean that's I think that's so difficult for teachers to like try and grasp in a half an hour and that's why it's a career long journey. Um and that's why the lifelong learning and the self directed learning for teachers are so important because we get to learn new. As the as the environment changes and we saw it in the last few years as the teaching environment changes, we need to find the tools in our utility belts.
It's going to help us to disrupt distraction and then the last thing that super teachers do is we get close and we get close with our learners. We build a relationship with them, you know, the social emotional learning component to our careers. It's it's not just sterile content that's being taught, it's understanding that within the bigger social context.

00:14:41
Um there are many other factors that influence learning and we need to get close enough to our learners that we understand their interests. We get to understand their preferences and that we then design learning environments and learning situations that's optimized for the learners we're teaching. So they get close to the learners and I have already mentioned, they get close to their colleagues, they collaborate, they find their Avengers. So we get close. But the most important thing in getting close as we get close to ourselves. Society wants us to or conditions us to focus on our weaknesses and we often get trapped within our weaknesses and how we structure our personal and professional development is around our weaknesses. When I believe that we should rather be focusing on our strengths. You know what your teacher superpower is. You know what your strengths are.

00:15:44
Well if you don't you can start discovering it but start focusing on the things you're doing well before you start focusing on the things you're struggling with. Get that one superpower dialed in. Some teachers are humorous teachers, they love bringing humor into the classroom and that helps to translate the content. Other teachers are amazing storytellers. Other teachers are great at the administrative side of their teaching, focus on what you're good at, perfect that and then start worrying about the rest. So in a nutshell, those three things I believe that the super teachers have as a theme or at a minimum and then we start building all of the other characteristics, start being built up on top of that.
Lindsay Lyons: I am so grateful that you just share those three. Those are so powerful and so interconnected too. Right? If we get close, if we get close with students, we get close with colleagues. If we get closer to ourselves, we can do the other things, we can disrupt distraction, right? We can make sure we're not the hero of the story and the students are.

00:16:47
Lindsay Lyons: I love that, that's such a, such a wonderful framework and I really appreciate that you shared it with our listeners. Um one of the things that I'm wondering is where or how do you find super teachers? So in this idea of recruiting and hiring and um, that kind of thing, what would you say to to leaders who are asking this question of themselves?
Dr. Francois Naude: Finding super teachers? If you look at all of the movies, it's like all of the super teachers are in costume, they're hiding away. They want to hide their true identity, but finding the competent teachers who work at your, at your institute and that I'd say is probably one of the bare essentials. The starting point of uplifting your school. Howard Mann in one of his podcasts explained the concept of recruiting that before you go and look for candidates that can fill positions, you have to first do an internal audit of competence. Look at the staff that you currently have and give yourself a rating out of 10.

00:17:50
So think about, most principles or most, most school leaders will be able to do that because they interact and they're busy or they know their staff competence. They can go like if I were to rate my staff component, I'll give them on competence, a six out of 10, whatever your measure is. But then when you hire new staff and your goal, your victory condition is you would like to have a eight out of 10 average or a nine out of 10 average. you can't be hiring more sixes. You can't be hiring fives and fours. With every hire, you should be hiring somebody whose competence is above the average competence that you deem in your school. And that process, even though it sounds simple is difficult. Because how, how can you in an interview determine the competence of a teacher. So what we do is I've started recruitment company for teachers called: goteach.co.za. And my philosophy around that is to assist even our student teachers as well as practicing teachers to start building up the proof of competence, in digital assets in digital portfolios of evidence that then um they have at their disposal that when they do apply for a job because that's the other part of the the portal, is that the schools advertise their vacancies.

00:19:20
But then we use our algorithms and to screen out candidates that we feel won't fit the ethos of the school or what the school's guideline is. So we have a very intense discussion with the school in determining their culture, in determining their ethos and then slotting all of those parameters into our algorithms and then getting from the applicants, like precipitating out the super teachers from that. But then we always ask the teachers, well, where's your proof? Do you have videos of you teaching? Do you know what principles are looking for? Do you have testimonials? Because everybody's putting references on their CVS, but very few people phone the people or if you do, what are they going to tell you? Nobody's gonna lie or at least they're not going to tell you. Oh no, this teacher was absolutely horrible. Don't hire them. Nobody does that. So rather building up case studies from parents, building up case studies from learners that you've been working with, of course you can change the names or anything.

00:20:27
But the point being, how are you using digital assets to prove your competence, to prove that you are a super teacher. And I can promise you if you are part of 50 or 100 teachers that apply for a job and you're the only one that can prove your competence, you're the priest word candidate. So finding those teachers is the one part that's the recruitment aspect. And then the other part that we do is assisting schools in the internship project because we believe strongly in schools having to grow their own number.
They're taking in student teachers in an internship project. And then for the time of their studies in our country, our teachers study a four year degree. So during the four years they are in service every day in school, getting to know the ethos and the culture of the school. And we assist in with the mentor teacher support, we assist with the intern support, but by the time they're qualified, you don't need to go and look for super teachers. You've grown a super teacher in your own headquarters.

00:21:32
Lindsay Lyons: I love that that, that both trying to make sure that you have great, you know, super teachers coming in and also that there is capacity for change and growth within the staff that you already have. I also loved your idea of you know, thinking about doing an internal audit like and and really figuring out where you are in the ratings for each of those, it reminds me of what I was about to say earlier and totally spaced on the values in action. I don't know if it's valuesinaction.com. I can link to it in the show notes, but they are a group of positive psychologists who have tried to focus more on the strength space what you were saying earlier, as opposed to deficits let's look at strength. And I actually had experimented with as a teacher, we did that as a staff, we had all of our students do that. And then we had everyone who taught those students in a in a cohort um to do it as well. And we all got to talk about our strengths in a way that was not very bragy. It was like, oh, I took this inventory and here are my strengths and you know, you have these strengths and we would be a great team for this project.

00:22:32
And so even students to student thinking about what the strengths are. You know, doing that audit in a sense of what are my colleagues or my staff, but also where are the strength of my students and where do we maybe need more in the staff to enable that in the students. I mean, there's so much possibility in what you were sharing that I just think it's so cool to be so cool to hear, you know, how teachers are our leaders are doing that. And then I also just love the idea of testimonials beyond your supervisors, like you were saying, family members, learners, I mean that that's who you want to hear from, right, when you're interviewing, you want to know what the experience of those family members were when they talked with the teacher. Was that communication a one way street, was it a partnership? Did you only get calls that were like your kid misbehaved in school today? You know? And what did the learners experience, you know, feel like to them when they were in the class? So brilliant suggestions. I absolutely love these, These are really exciting. Did you, do we cover enough about all the various things that you do, I know you do so much.

00:23:34
Was there a program that we missed there?
Dr. Francois Naude: No, I think, we we've covered quite a lot of what I'm busy with the moment, of course, with the aim of supporting teachers, because that's the that's the thing for me, I never wanted to be a teacher, it was never on my radar as a job. I went to study, I've got my BSC honors in zoology and it was only in my first year that I thought, yes, I want to do something else, and one of my own lecturers said, well why don't you consider teaching? And I went that's such a brilliant idea because for a lazy student like myself, teaching is the best job out there, and, you know, half day job, you get the four holidays a year, it's basically babysitting. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do this. But it was only like after the first week of teaching 15 year olds about, you know, sexual reproduction, that I realized, I love what I do, just getting that fire in the classroom. So I ended up in teaching per accident, but I had the passion, I had enthusiasm for the job, but still being thrown into the deep end, not receiving the support. I could have easily just decided after the first three years, you know, I'm out, I don't want to do this because it's teaching is a difficult job.

00:24:51
I saw the research on this and teaching is as difficult, as dreadful as air traffic controllers, as firefighters. It's shocking that people generally don't understand how stressful a job it is to be a teacher and we're losing teachers at a very young age. So I made it my mission to support, not only novice teachers, because they are retired or close to retirement, teachers also need support so that everything I decided to get involved with, because you're as judged by what you say no to as to what you say yes to, that the things that I've decided to say yes to has to be supporting teachers. and so the recruitment company, the intern support, the masterminds, the public speaking, all of it has got this mission on supporting teachers to become the super teachers so that we can teach like superheroes.
Lindsay Lyons: That's so powerful and it's such an issue like retention. I mean I was a special education teacher and part of the reason that I got into teaching is the same, I was not intending to become a teacher and then there are all these alternative certification programs where it's like, we'll pay for your college degree in education if you just come teach in this subject area that we don't have anyone wanting to teach in.

00:26:08
And it's because people leave after 3-5 years, you know, 50% of special education teachers are just not teaching anymore and it's bananas because it is, you know, such a, there is such opportunity like you were speaking to the joy and like I actually really love this job. And that is what I think when you're talking about even close to retirement teachers, when you don't have that joy anymore, it starts to hurt your own well being, which then impacts, as you said earlier, the student's well being and the student experience and it's all interconnected and so I love that your mission is really just amplifying that joy that expertise and you know, the experience for all learners. So that is so beautiful. Um, I know we talked about a lot of different things that teachers could do, our leaders could do. And so I'm wondering as a final call to action, what would you say if there's just one thing where a listener is ending the episode and they're like, I'm gonna go do one thing to kind of build that momentum based on what you talked about today. What's that? One thing you would encourage people to go do after kind of hanging up to your beds?

00:27:09
Dr. Francois Naude: Well, the one thing would be to go and discover their superpower. That would be like if you need to write it down somewhere, figure out your superpower. And there's, there's three ways that I like triangulate and ask people to go and discover their superpower. The first thing is listen to podcasts like this one. Go and find out because we need to find out what are the typical traits of super teacher. If we don't know what is available traits or what has worked in the past, it's very difficult to frame something just out of context.
So by curating content, listening to podcasts, reading books or watching youtube videos and there are so many amazing content creators on Tiktok. The teacher Tiktok is amazing and I love it. So go and go and view these things, follow other competent teachers because you'll soon realize ah this is a trait I also have. Okay, I'm not that kind of teacher now you're comparing and seeing, okay, where do I fit? number one

00:28:12
and the second one is going to do a personality test, do yourself a favor, go and do a personality test. There are many free ones online but go and do one and go and see what kind of person you are. So you're getting close to yourself, you're discovering what psychologists deem your strengths are. And then go and ask your friends, your family just to mention five traits that that they admire about you. What are the things that they believe your superpower is? Because now you'll be able to compare and see out of the five people that sent me responses three times came out humoristic. Okay, I know that's so you get a perspective, an outside perspective, a professional perspective and in your own and triangulation between this is going to help you discover your superpower.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that is so cool. It reminds me of Dr. Laura Morgan Roberts, she does a lot of positive psychology research and she has the reflected best self. So it's basically what you're saying is you're asking all these people like if you could reflect back a time where I was at my best, what was that time?

00:29:19
And so they come up with all these anecdotes and yeah you can pull the values and the strength from them and it's such a fun activity and I know I asked for one action but I'm even thinking an extension for people who are listening could be you know, do that with your students to write like you could have the students tell each other this as well and say, you know, I, I did this for myself. Um now I want you to have this joy of just hearing the good things about yourself. Like there's something really beautiful about that.
Dr. Francois Naude: There is on Saturday, I did a teacher wellness workshop and it's strange now to do in person workshops because for the last two years it's been all online, but I had my, one of the first in person teacher wellness trainings and we did this, we did all three of these, but then I asked the teachers to share with each other the point place and just the change in the mood in the conference hall was tangible. As soon as people started sharing these positives with each other, you could just feel because hey, we like it when people speak about us and then when they speak positive things about us, we like it even more.

00:30:22
So it was ego stroking type of exercise, which I think is that necessarily at times. But just the, the, the change in the mood was so tangible and we need to do more of this, imagine how kids would feel if we start sharing with them their strengths instead of picking on them and just writing them and like getting the, you know, sitting down and shutting up type of conversations with them. It's like, let's rather share with them what you just did. I respect what you just did. Just that sentence alone. What it does for a child's self esteem is amazing.
Lindsay Lyons: That is so cool to think about what the possibilities in a school like that would be like. So thank you so much for sharing that activity. I love it. And finally this last question is just for fun. I'm just, I'm curious to know everyone who comes out on the podcast has been really a self described learner and you know, invests in their own learning. I know we're in a mastermind together, so we're investing in our learning, but I'm just curious to know something that you have been learning about lately.
Dr. Francois Naude: I am, I'm like a serial entrepreneur, I'm also like a serial curator of information.

00:31:30
so learning for me has become a habit and I don't, I think like my attention deficit is speaking here because I can't focus on one thing at a time. So I don't learn about one aspect every single or in like larger chunks. I prefer to spread out my learning through different interests and behind me Lindsay you'll be able to see it at my bookshelf. I've got 10 books that I'm currently reading at the same time, But I do what I, what I do is I read 10 pages from one book, but then also capturing and that's very important because we forget like 90% of the things we consume. I would then retain the nice things from the 10 pages I've read. And I actually send myself an email with that information so I can recall it later.
And then that book goes in the back of the queue because tomorrow I'll be reading another book. And the interest is, it's from like fantasy genres of of uh you know, fiction to nonfiction biographies of business leaders.

00:32:38
Because I feel that I don't know what I don't know. So let me like spread my wings and read as much as I can and then start incorporating that in my day.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that strategy of the 10 pages email yourself. I think I might start using that. This is the first year that I allowed myself to read multiple books at once. So in order to retain, I'm using your strategy now.
Dr. Francois Naude: We call it, you need to have an idea trap because whenever you get an idea you need to capture it because your ideas are fleeting. Like many times you're in the shower thinking of something and then you're like, oh this is a great idea. Probably like a multi billion dollar business idea. And then you just step out of the shower and you forgot or you got it in the car and somebody swerves in front of you. Like you forgot the idea. So um I use I use an app and I can share the, the app's name. I just want to quickly double check it on my phone. It's called Brain Toss Brain Toss is an app, you can use that to capture any ideas. You can capture the pages of a book on a photo or you can send yourself a voice note or you can type in a text with links and stuff like that.

00:33:41
It immediately emails it to you and you've got it in the bank.
Lindsay Lyons: So cool, awesome. Thank you so much. I'm gonna use that now Francois thank you so much for being a guest on this podcast.
Dr. Francois Naude: It's a pleasure chatting with you Lindsay. Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening. Amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons or labor review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it to continue the conversation. You can head over to our Time for Teachership ship facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders continue to think big act brave and be your best self.

Links:

• Values in Action assessment 
  
• Dr. Naude can be found on his website (you can sign up for his newsletter there).

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Lindsay Lyons: What has the greatest impact on student learning and achievement? Fresh out of graduate school, looking to change the world, Mitch felt like there was something he was missing. No matter how hard he tried, many of students were still struggling. One thing was clear. In order to help his struggling students, he needed tools to use in heterogeneous classrooms, resources that would move the needle for underperforming students but also empower those who were succeeding and everyone in between. He assumed he could amplify the impact of these resources if there was common adoption across subject areas and grade levels. It just needed content agnostic tools for use in diverse classrooms, but they were missing. It's from this place organized binder began. The initial challenge was finding time. Educators are hired to teach a subject or grade level and his job was to teach Biology. He found there was rarely enough time in the school day to do that job well. Where would he ever find the time to also teach his students the skills and habits they needed to achieve academically.
Then one day it hit him. He should embed practice using these skills directly into his classroom routine. If you can figure out how to do this, his students would gain daily practice employing these skills and he would have time to do his job. Moreover, he would create a predictable and dependable learning environment for students.

00:01:06
Win, win. win. What coalesced in the following two years of design and constant redesign was the initial iteration of Organized Binder. It was amazing. His students begin to succeed and they began to see themselves as capable learners. They developed agency and confidence.
10 years later, Organized Binder is an evidence based MTSS Tier one universal solution that creates a structured and dependable environment with clear expectations and routines. This content agnostic platform gives students exposure to goal setting, reflective learning and meta cognitive practice, time and task management, city strategies, organizational skills and more. Organized Binder aligns directly with universal design for learning framework and is an integral component for ensuring least restrictive environments. Mitch founded this company to widen the impact of Organized Binder beyond the walls of his classroom in school. He's honored to work with K-12 districts, networks in schools as well as colleges, home schools and individual families around the country and internationally. The positive impact has been overwhelming. Schools are increasing their scores. Exceptional learners are reporting huge gains, and initiatives such as PLCs are finding needed continuity and cohesion. In addition to empowering students Organized Binder helps educators implement best teaching practices.


00:02:11
I am so excited for you to hear from Mitch Weathers in this conversation. For reference, this conversation was recorded in September 20th, 2021. Now let's get to it.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher, excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

00:03:19
Mitch Weathers, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Mitch Weathers: Thank you for having me, I'm happy to be here.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so glad you're here. And I wanted to have ride in my first big question for you is in line with what Dr. Bettina Love talks about. She talks about freedom dreaming and she describes it as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. As I love this quote from her, it's pretty deep, pretty powerful, but I'd love to know, thinking about that, you know, what is the big dream that you hold for the field of education?
Mitch Weathers: Well, thanks for having me, first of all. My big dream is rooted in my experience as a classroom teacher and it's a little intro. I'm a high school teacher. I still am a high school teacher. This is my 20th year in the classroom and if I had to say one big dream is that we would take the modeling of and teaching of skills column, executive function or non cognitive skills or what some schools that we work with called studentness, that we would take the modeling and teaching of those skills or that suite of skills as serious as we do, the contents or curriculum in our grade levels or classes. Recognizing that for any and all learners, that's the foundation or the bedrock for learning.

00:04:54
And yet, what has frustrated me for two decades now? If you follow, just to be blunt, if you follow the money in education, you find a lot of it in outside of salary and payroll benefits of course, but you find a lot of it wrapped up in testing and in textbooks and in technology, all of which are not bad things, but none of which really laid the foundation for learning. So that would be my big dream.
Lindsay Lyons: That's a great dream. I love that idea of like taking those skills seriously and thinking about the fact that if we did that, like, what, you know, dreaming of what all of those possibilities could be for school as opposed to, you know, test prep centers or whatever they are now, like you described. So I think that's a big shift for people. So people listening may think that is not how my school currently does things. We are very much a test prep institution. And so I'm wondering in terms of, you know, the mindset that is required to really prioritize those skills that you're describing,

00:06:04
what are the things that you would suggest for a teacher or a leader who's listening and thinking like, okay, yeah, that's interesting. And now how do I wrap my head around doing that? Like, what's, what is that mindset that they would need to have moving forward?
Mitch Weathers: That's a really good question. And if I could add to it. Mindset, yes, but the challenge, the real challenge to this work is that we're hired to teach that content and were assessed and so are our students by these tests. So it's also a time issue where, and it's also a budget issue. There's no, as far as I've learned, there's no executive function budget, right? Where we would the money makes it a priority in education. So it's like, wow, I really want to do this work, but how would we ever fund that? And for the classroom teacher or any teacher, it's a time thing. You name any teacher listening to this who has enough time in a school year to cover everything they want to cover.

00:07:12
We don't.
So there's other factors, just besides mindset in terms of approaching this. And so the key is this, and this is, well, here's what I would say is one of the keys. If you are lacking for time, but you recognize that the agency that students develop when they figure out how they learn and so they can approach their learning with more dexterity and too often, and certainly for my students and I would bet anybody listening for certain populations are certain students, it's as if they are passive objects in their education instead of active subjects. The way I've described it often as like students are there, they are present, but it's like their education is happening all around them or to them and they don't quite understand how to jump in and participate.

00:08:24
You can kind of be there, but it's spinning all around them. And these executive functions are these non cognitive skills that research has overwhelmingly indicated what give students that dexterity and that agency to jump in and participate are key. But the key here is the modeling of and practice with those because I don't have enough time to finish what I'm doing. And to be perfectly honest, if I looked at some of these skills that research has indicated help students just having another lesson on the importance of them would probably be pretty boring, right? So it's like, here's what meta cognition is a retrieval practice or even goal setting. Students don't want to have a lesson on the importance of goal setting. Instead, let's set goals within the context of our subject and then measure them and work with them and evaluate them and reset them throughout the school year. So they're kind of like a working part of our course.


00:09:29
And so the key that this belabored point I'm making here is that if students can gain exposure to and practice with these executive functions by virtue of classroom routine, then I don't infringe upon the time I need to teach my content. And that's what Organized Binder does for the classroom teacher.
For the students, it's all about practice with these skills and habits which lead to mindsets. But for the teacher, and this is what's often kind of unknown or missed about Organized Binder, is that it creates for students and for teachers a very predictable routine. And by virtue of that routine, just by engaging in it, and I mean very simple, like how we start, how we transition, how are we organizing our materials, How do we end. Like predictable learning spaces are safer and students are more likely to take the risks inherent to learning in those spaces.

00:10:34
And if by virtue of that predictable routine, I happen to get practice with all these skills, it's a win win. So I'm actually freeing up time to focus on my content while giving students exposure to these skills.
Wow, that was a really long winded answer to your question about what kind of mindset a teacher would need. So I hope that I didn't miss the mark there.
Lindsay Lyons: No, not at all. I think you said it perfectly. So I'm just envisioning like, you know, a priorities list almost in my head, just to make it concrete. And so just like taking a step back, at times for me as a teacher was important to be like what is most important, what is my priority for today? And a lot of times it would be, if I were to really ask myself that question and think about it, it would be that we have practiced with goal setting or we have practiced with this thing. And so yeah, how can I then mindset shift, how can I then embed it, you know, in terms of a way that gives me more time back. And I think that that is exactly how we have to look at it because we can't continue to cram things in, which is I think historically how we try to do it. It's like, let's add this entire executive functioning curriculum to my existing subjects, like that's not possible and it's also not practical.


00:11:52
So it's, I love this blend and this reframe that you're sharing, It really makes sense.
Mitch Weathers: I've asked, first, in any talk I give or presentation at a conference or whatever. I always start with just a blanket question of what has the greatest impact on student learning and achievement? Just throw it out there and let people brain served. I can tell you, I've never heard in a long time, a lot of years and I've been all over the country asking this question, somebody say really good textbooks, which again, are not a bad thing. More technology, not a bad thing. Like it's, it all comes down to these, you know, it comes down to relationships with students of course because this is a human to human endeavor. But it's always these content, agnostic skills and habits that when I developed, again, it's that agency is a learner that's so often missing and I made the mistake as a new teacher. I'm a science teacher and lucky me, right? We get to blow things up and go outside and drop watermelons off buildings. And that stuff is all fun and engaging, but it does not equate to learning all the time if these skills and habits are missing.


00:13:12
And that's what we're the kind of history of my work as an educator. That's what really struck me when I first came into the classroom and I came out of a nonprofit background. And so I had quite a few years of experience working with young people and when I entered the classroom and how to interact with young people, which is gonna take a few years for some teachers to figure just that piece out. But the relationship piece I kind of, I could do and it just became like overwhelmingly clear like, oh, you don't know how to do this school thing. And most of them, I worked with a large, migrant population, undocumented population, second language learners, historic academic failure and yet gifted. And too often students, many students are viewed through a deficit lens as opposed to an asset lens, meaning our industry sees them for lack of better expression.

00:14:18
Our industry sees them for what they don't bring to the classroom rather than what they do. And it became clear to me like we have to uncover all of those because you'd have a lot of these executive functions already as well as others. But how do we uncover those? Practice them and leverage them in the classroom as assets?
Lindsay Lyons: That's such a powerful point. And I think it takes me to my next question to which is kind of what does that look like at the classroom level. So I know you have Organized Binder, you have all of these great approaches and practices. Do you mind walking us through like either a strategy or just kind of like what that might look like in a school day?
Mitch Weathers: Yeah, I'm glad I'm really glad you asked that. I didn't know you were gonna ask that. I became completely obsessed when, so Organized Binder just came out of my classroom and in my practice. And answer your question in just a moment, like what's one specific? But one thing I can't stand about our industry is, well, first of all, any professional development, that's a one time flash in the pan, we never see you again? Done.

00:15:27
We need to just banned those people and whoever is doing that, it's not worth it.
That's not to say a key note's wrong. But when we were talking about professional development and to your really important question of what's it look like tomorrow in my class, I would sit through these, you know, even really inspiring and helpful professional learning experiences. But to make it a part of my daily practice took so much work on the backside that eventually it just became another thing on the shelf. Then my officer in my classroom that I never really could get around to and I never wanted that for Organized Binder.
So I, once it kind of came about and again, I had no intention of sharing this whatsoever, but colleagues started showing up and saying, hey, I'm working with the same kiddos and I'm not having any success and they're all telling me about what's going on in your room and they're fired up about it. And I was like, what are you doing? And I'm like, well, I've started designing this, the system that the kids called Organized Binder because there actually is a physical binder to it and they actually were organized for the first time and that's where the name came from, for better or worse. But I wanted teachers in an audience to sit through a training or experience, and the next day, hit the ground running with almost no friction and that's possible.

00:16:56
That's something that I'm really proud of now.
What's it look like? I can tell you that when I first started teaching I had, this is just one example, I had a really, really out of control tardy situation our school did, but not so much truancy, but tardy and it drove me crazy. Come on, kids would be standing outside my classroom. They'd be like running down the hall. They would be up and like, it was just like, I think in their mind, like if they were kind of even in the general vicinity or geography, that that's like good enough.
And for me, it hit me one day. I was like, okay, well I just assumed, and that's the "A" word in education, right? As soon as we make one assumption as a classroom teacher, like we always have to check ourselves because as soon as you start making assumptions, you could be so off the mark, right? But I just assumed everybody knew that when the bell rang, because we were a school that had bells, that meant class started. And when class starts, that means you're in your seat. I've assigned you a seat and you're at least facing forward so we can talk, You know. And I just assumed that everybody had that understanding.
And then it hit me one day, like, oh, big classes back then was really challenging students.

00:18:21
Like it wouldn't be uncommon to have like 40 kids in my class and be like... So there's my idea of what it means to be on time, and then there's 40 other versions of that and we've never talked about it. I don't even know what you think because you might think being outside the class, which is driving me crazy. And now we're having like a relational conflict and I'm having to be the authoritarian, all because we haven't communicated. It has nothing to do with like, the expectation, It's just a lack of clarity. And so I didn't, I certainly didn't ask anyone's opinion on what it meant to be on time. I just had to make my expectations hyper explicit.
So one of my favorite books is called Other People's Children by Lisa Delpit. And if I had to summarize her thesis in that is that we need that which is implicit in the classroom, we need to make explicit. And I could no longer just assume that you knew what it meant to be on time because I hadn't made that hyper explicit.

00:19:31
And so where Organized Binder really became like a, I really like it spark of magic was, I became obsessed with creating hyper predictable classroom routines that I could communicate without using words. So with this again, I tend to get a little long winded here, so cut me off whenever, but you asked what does it look like? I would, once it came about and you, I wish everyone had an Organized Binder in their hands because they would see that it's this physical tactile, yes, everybody out there, it's actual paper and a binder, and it exists digitally, if you're curious, but I'm a proponent of this physical binder. But it's all color coded for visual queuing in the classroom, and if you work with second language learners or students with learning differences or whatever it might be, and I would say anybody having these visual cues so that I'm reducing barriers or friction so that you can engage, better engage with the class community, it's all good.


00:20:41
So I would say this, I'd walk into class, whatever when I'm going over what it means to be on time in my first week of school. And I would do it this way and say, okay everybody, Mr. Weathers welcome blah, blah, blah, here's what it means to be on time in my class. And I would walk out of the classroom not very long because that's against ed code. But I would just kind of like mess with them a little bit and then I'd walk back in. I grabbed some kids binder, they're Organized Binder. I would find an empty spot, I would sit down and I would open my binder to this white B tab and in there they're called weekly lifelines and they're white. And I would just sit there. And then I would stand up and I'd hand that kids behind her back and I'd walk up to the front of the class and I'd say, okay, now turn to your neighbor and tell them what it means to be on time. And the whole class would erupt in conversation. And then of course we would, you know, perish it, tell me what you heard and if by doing so everybody knew, I'm like, hey, look, that's all you have to do.


00:21:44
Just get here on time. It's, we, it's what I've often said is, there's a lot of gray areas in teachers and oftentimes in teacher's lesson plans. A lot of ambiguity and that's where we lose Kids. Like those undefined spaces even if they're 30 seconds or 15 seconds or and I'm not saying this is like an authoritarian thing, but we do our students a favor by painting the gray areas black and white. That's what I've always told my students to like, look now you have a decision to make. I call him character questions. You're going to show up or not. Like if you know what's expected and it's fair and you can do it, then I've kind of left that up to you and that's where some of this agency starts to come in. And by again by virtue of that routine. I get practiced with these different skills, it can be a win win.
Lindsay Lyons: That's an excellent example and I love that you're naming to, I'm thinking about for Multilingual learners who are relatively new to English, just being able to watch you do that, watch you come into the room, sit down to get the binder flip to that page,

00:22:53
like that is already like a hurdle that we're overcoming. That could be a hurdle if we were using words initially. I mean there's so much there that's just like universal design for learning.
Mitch Weathers: Yeah. And the other thing I didn't mention for a classroom context, everything that a student has in their physical Organized Binder, this is why it actually exists digitally. I'm projecting in the classroom, so they're seeing it in their binder. If there were 40 kids in the room, which I hope there's not, there's 39 other versions and it's up there. So I'm constantly and I always see it as reducing friction. Like what I'm trying to do, let's talk about second language or multi language learners for a moment. They tend to spend a significant amount of cognitive energy just navigating the school day or the class period, just trying to keep up. And if you've worked with those students and those populations, there's a certain fatigue on their face at the end of the school day that I don't think is the result of like, oh I've just learned so much, right? I don't think that's what's going on. It's just taxing, it's so taxing to everything I'm learning.


00:24:09
In other words, everything I'm seeing and I'm hearing for the most part I'm translating, and I'm constantly just trying to keep up. And so if I can reduce friction or in other words, if I can have such a hyper predictable learning routine that you just know what to do to engage with the learning community, then I'm liberating percentages of cognitive energy that once was spent on navigating and what win for the students, right? And they just feel better because it's safer and it, I want students to walk to my learning space knowing exactly what to do to be successful.
And here's the other thing. When they do, it gives me an opportunity to acknowledge the successes and I always call them victories because for many of the students that I've worked with historically, they don't have all that many successes or victories in an academic setting.

00:25:12
And these victories Lindsay, that we're talking about are not tied to content mastery. And most of the time in the modern classroom, success for victories are largely tied to content mastery. Such that if I'm struggling with the content, I may see myself as a learner is less a part of this learning community because I'm not as "smart" or as gifted as some of these, others. I could be wrong about that interpretation, but as soon as I start telling myself that, students tend to lean back rather than lean in and I've seen this work over and over when students experience celebrated victory. So I have to acknowledge it too. It's not just them figuring it out on their own. And so with the students I was first working with, when Organized Binder started to coalesce, like I could walk around and be like, way to go, you have your binder open to the B page, the weekly lifeline. Or with like all these little things that had nothing to do with the lesson. You and I this whole time had yet to talk about any subject matter any less in any context and that's the whole point, right?

00:26:22
This is a content agnostic tool. But when students experience those celebrated victories at a minimum, they just like being there because they're tired of failing. Who likes to fail all the time when they show up to something? But they can begin, there's a paradigm shift that can happen. I've seen it happen. Well, they'll start to lean in because we know when you're struggling, that's the time to lean in and try even harder. But sometimes we have to foster that, and this is one way to do it.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely, okay. I love that. And I also know, you said this is the start to, but it helps teachers as well, right? If I am thinking about planning units worth of lessons once they have a two month unit, okay, now I'm facing down, you know, however many units that would, or lessons that would be the 40 lessons, and I want to get creative and I want to engage students and now I'm on teachers, pay teachers paying money out of my own pocket to try to do all these creative activities.

00:27:24
When really, if we did five routines and repeated them throughout the entire two months, our students would have more cognitive ability to engage with the content that's changing every day. They would have more success. We would be able to better focus on what it is I need to teach every day. We'd have more energy for student relationships because we're not lesson planning into like, you know, three in the morning. I mean, there's so much that is here that benefits both the students I think and the teachers that is so important. Especially when we mentioned time at the start, like not only do teachers feel like they don't have enough time for the content and fitting it all in, but just to be able to do all the tasks that teachers need to do in their planning time without taking work home is like, time is such a factor. This feels like a win win for students and teachers.
Mitch Weathers: No doubt. It's been, I can't tell you how many times I've heard from in veteran teachers saying, oh my gosh, like on the backside of a training or something. This is all the stuff I've wanted or known I need to do for years and I just have not found the time to do it. And here it is for me, you're gifting this to me and it will actually save class time because you have a more predictable learning routine.


00:28:47
So absolutely a win win. And for new teachers out there, get a hold of us. It's like a Godsend for just having that lesson structure. We're not really going into a whole intro right now, but there's Organized Binder will frame a daily lesson plan, but it also captures teachers unit sequencing, which is just as important. And ultimately what a teacher a couple of weeks ago called the crown jewel at the end of the school year or the semester because they work at colleges as well, students walk with a curated portfolio of their learning from the first day of school till the last day. And I've started calling them trophies because talk about agency and pride, like just beaming and we're not and they keep saying this, we're not talking about content and we're not talking about grades. You could have a C minus and you have your crown jewel at the end of the school year that you've created,

00:29:50
not me. This is your daily reflections, your daily plan. We're doing it together as a class community, but it's a profound experience, but it's all built from this predictable routine that you're noticing for teachers, what it can do to set them up for success as well.
Lindsay Lyons: And I don't want you to give too much away. But I'm curious to know. I think as a listener I had heard about Organized Binder before I actually met you and I was like, oh, I want to like kind of picture what this looks like. And so I'm just wondering, could you know, at the beginning when you were saying, okay, I come in, I flipped the white page. And you specifically said, you know, it's a white pages under the, B tab that, you know, like all of these things like what does the, can you describe a little bit. What the binder looks like? What are the various pieces of a binder that frame like just that lesson level that you're talking about.
Mitch Weathers: Yeah, so, yeah, we'll do this verbally and then everybody just go over to the website and you can see one and it'll all make sense. So there's, as we call it a student bundle and a teacher would get what's called a class set of 40, which is usually more than enough.

00:31:00
But also it's another thing that bothers me about our Educational system when you, there's an initiative at the school and I get my class set and it's like I got 32 of whatever it is and there's 36 kids in my class. So we try to go super heavy because we're all rooted in the teacher's reality and experience. And they would open up their bundle and add this in because we've talked about teachers, we've talked about students and we also have to talk about families because family engagement is paramount for student success. And what every Organized Binder bundle comes with is a bilingual family guide or parent guide that goes home to basically explain the system and how it's used. But to offer kind of sets parents and families up to support learners as well, but with specific prompts to try to move it away from, How was school today? What did you learn?

00:32:03
Nothing. Do you have any homework? Like those conversations can very quickly develop. But if I have specific prompts around the goals I've set in my daily tasks or my reflection or even just knowing like, What you guys do today? Why I can look in your binder and it's all there, that kind of thing. So they would see that, but then the, our binders which are, I'm super proud of this, so I just gotta put it in there. It's one of the only, SFC certified green binders, you'll find. Honestly, it's a pretty hard process to get your stuff certified. So everything that we having, you know, our whole product line is all US made and 100% recycled materials for the lowest carbon possible carbon footprint. And no crappy vinyls and plastics that would end up in a landfill because why should we, you know, nurture the next generation and ruin the planet at the same time, and our industry is a bad actor when it comes to that
Anyway,

00:33:14
so I'm proud of our product line. They open it up, there's eight tabs. If we're talking about K- 12, this is a little bit different for college. A and it's very simple, all color coded A through H. And A, if you flipped the A tab, you would see a gold goal setting page. And so students get to together as a class community, but very individually set goals. And we review and come back to them. Like I was saying each term or each quarter or every few weeks. Then there's a B tab C tab and they're all they're all color coded. I could go through the whole thing. But again, it's all for visual cueing, that I could just see where I need to be and flip to that tab. Does that answer your question?
Lindsay Lyons: That is perfect. Yeah. And I think that's a great point. Like people can actually open this and look at it online, right? You have like these, these templates and there, I think the images are color coded as well, right? They show like this paper is going to be in this color.

00:34:17
Mitch Weathers: Yup., yup. You can see it all and if you want the best way to get that intro. So for all you listeners out there, we can share with you or gift you a digital copy of our bilingual parent guide. And give you access to some tutorials, not as so much of training because I know you don't maybe even know what this whole thing is. But if you did want to check it out and like see it opened up and the working components Lindsay, I think we should do those tutorials. That would be helpful.
Lindsay Lyons: That sounds perfect. So those will be the freebies for this episode and I'll link those in the show notes and on the blog post. So that would be great. Thank you so much for kind of going through all of that. I know we just talked about a lot of different things and there are a lot of different pieces to this. And so if I am maybe like a teacher, my administrator hasn't decided to go ahead and actually purchase Organized Binder. But like I'm starting to get ready to have that conversation with them or I'm starting to like start small in my class and think about like, how do I kind of really wrap my head around prioritizing these learning routines that are, what was the phrase that you used: hyper predictable.

00:35:27
I love that. And you know, what would that one thing be that would get me started on that. If I could just take one step after this episode, what would you say that should be?
Mitch Weathers: Yeah, good question, good questions. In terms of the Organized Binder thing. I would and always do encourage that. So in other words, the pilot: something small, that one teacher or a handful of teachers or maybe one class, or something along those lines so that it's kind of running an experiment to see like, hey, is this, is this worthwhile? Is it going to do everything that this guy is saying, kind of thing. But really to make it your own and the school zone and kind of kick the tires. So that, that's the way I would go about it rather than like a school wide roll out in the first year. I don't, I don't advocate for that.
If you're a classroom teacher and the funding is not there, or you think it's not there then I would say contact me.

00:36:31
Well Mike, I'm sure you can get a hold of me here. We can have that conversation because you'd be pretty surprised about the funding and how we can make it work. But the lens or the review of your own practice, your own pedagogy is, can you, if you're interested in creating predictable learning spaces and that's true of a brick and mortar classroom or our last year and a half in distance learning or whatever that environment, a predictable routine isn't it? It's not just a classroom thing, is what I'm saying, but let's just pretend we're talking to the classroom teacher. Start to review and reflect upon your expectations or your policies or procedures or whatever you call them, and ask yourself if you can communicate them non verbally. Do students know when it's possible, know your expectations without, of course you have to communicate them once or twice, but where you know where we typically see them, I could ask you a question. Let me ask you Lindsay reverse roles: where if you were to walk into a classroom, where most often do you see a list of expectations?

00:37:50
Lindsay Lyons: I would say like a poster on the wall?
Mitch Weathers: Poster on the wall. And I can, there is research around this that if we're not constantly kind of curating that which is on our walls in the classroom and I forget the time frame but it's surprisingly short, that it literally becomes invisible. Like students are not seeing it anymore. And we all do this, that's a good idea. But there's this poster up there and sometimes it's like five years old because you have really good expectations. I'm telling you there, if you're struggling with them engaging with those, it could be your communication modality. So trying to make them part of a routine and trying to make them when possible, communicated nonverbally or at least working towards that, can be really, really helpful.
That's some of the underpinnings of Organized Binder. If you wanted to bring some of this into your classroom, go listen and watch all those tutorials.

00:38:52
I'm basically going to pull the veil back on our online training program for free. For all of you. You don't, it's not embedded and of course, so you can just go watch the videos, just go check them out. And then see what you get from that. But I can tell you all of it is built around the skills and habits that research has overwhelmingly indicated help students be successful. And again, it's content agnostic. So it doesn't matter what you teach, it doesn't matter what grade level you teach. These are universal.
Lindsay Lyons: I love a good content agnostic tool. This is the best. And so as we move to a close, I really appreciate all of just the value that you've provided for teachers and content in this episode and for leaders as well. I'm just curious to know, I think everyone on the podcast is like a self described lifelong learner. I know we're in a mastermind together, so we, you know, we continue to learn and grow, but what is something that you've been learning about lately?
Mitch Weathers: I've been learning that in our next newsletter,

00:39:56
this is the title for it. I've really been struck by this. Don't try this alone is going to be, what are our next newsletter And what I mean by that is in other words teaching and school leadership. Like don't try this alone, that the coaching and the support that's out there. I've been just learning a lot about really cool organizations and entities that are all around coaching or supporting, whether it be school leaders or teachers. And it's just really struck me lately. I've had some really interesting conversations, and also diving into some interesting literature around. Like. getting dialed in on what what does it mean to support and coach classroom teachers so that, but that there is some data and metrics around that. It's not like Kumbaya, not that that's a bad thing. But, so that's that's one thing that has really struck me lately, like this is, we can't you can't do this alone.

00:41:07
And maybe that's why our our attrition rates are so high. You know, in the first 3 to 5 years in our industry and so often like new teachers in certain environments can just be going at it alone and it's hard. It's hard. So yeah, in terms of education space, that's something I've been learning.
Lindsay Lyons: That's awesome and so powerful. Yes, because I was ready to quit after the first three years of my teaching career. And like I love teaching. I think it was actually like a decent teacher, you know, once I got a handle on things, but it took those three years of figuring it out with minimal support and so if that support exists, which it totally does, like it is well worth whatever time or monetary investment that you need to make to get it and just feel better the rest of your career. So yeah,
Mitch Weathers: And you'd be hard pressed and other careers too. That's part of it, right? Like the ongoing support and training and yet with teachers like, right now I'm supporting a brand new teacher, I think I've shared this with you.

00:42:10
She's the second career coming out of second career teacher coming out of a very successful careers and the executive media executive. And her last job that was with MGM and like she's transitioned into the classroom and she has a heart for migrant and immigrant students and she got a job teaching digital media as a CTE teacher middle school. And it's, I mean she's working with it a very marginalized population, and with that comes specific challenges and now we meet every week and we just talk. She's using Organized Binder and we're doing that. And I asked her this last week, I'm like, so it's kind of cliche and everybody says how hard teaching is. I'm like just comparing for me like, is teaching harder than what you've done before? And she was just like, she about fell out of her chair. And she's only teaching three classes, and what she's recognizing is not only just the workload in figuring out how do you, how do you teach?

00:43:18
Like, kind of like, that's just how do I teach all this stuff, right? The emotional, the relational, what's the right word or expression for it? What we've spent a lot, I'll just tell you, we've spent a lot of time not talking about her content or in that like the positive meditation. But like, where do I put my gaze? Because If I have 30 kids in a room and these four are giving me some static every day, our tendency is to just focus on that. And I keep trying to tell her like, but there's 26 other students in the room and you're not, not that you're not seeing them. It's that when you go home at night and you go home on the weekends, I can promise you, you're just focused on those four and it's like the emotional, you know, weight of that. Like, there's certain things about teaching that are taxing that no one can see or they don't talk about in graduate school and all that.

00:44:21
So that's the: don't go at it alone. You gotta have somebody to support you and talk to you.
Lindsay Lyons: That is perfect. And finally, last question, where can listeners learn more about you or Organized Binder or connect online?
Mitch Weathers: Yeah. Well, you know how active I am on social media. I'm kidding, everybody. Best way would be just go to our website, organized binder dot com, and if you, easiest way so you don't have to forget just go to the contact link. And if you want to chat with me, that that won't go to my inbox. But if you say, "hey, I wanna, I heard Mitch on Lindsay's show, I want to chat." I would love to speak with you via phone, meet up on a Zoom, I love doing that. So that's probably the easiest way, but yes, you can find our Organized Binder handle on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all of those places. But warning, we don't post too often.
Lindsay Lyons: Thank you so much for sharing much and thank you so much for being on the podcast.

00:45:27
This was wonderful for me.
Mitch Weathers: This is super fun.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave and be your best self.

Links from the episode:
​

• See a visual of the OB binder on this page
• Mitch's newsletter
• Mitch can be found on: Website, Insta, FB, Twitter, LinkedIn

And for one final bonus...
Mitch has generously offered to give away a physical Organized Binder setup to the FIRST 3 educators who post a screenshot of the episode from their device or a picture of themselves listening to the episode and tag me AND Mitch @OrganizedBinder!

​​Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Dana Goodier has 22 years of experience in education. She has taught world languages in English and worked as a middle school administrator. She completed her doctorate degree in educational leadership in early 2020. For her dissertation, she researched reasons parents were opting their students out of high stakes testing at middle schools and how that affected the district accreditation rating. She often speaks at conferences providing educators with techniques to minimize off task behavior into increased time on task. She is the host of the Out of the Trenches podcast which features educators who share their stories of resiliency. Follow her on Twitter @danagoodier and visit her website at www.danagoodier.com. This conversation was recorded in September 28, 2021, so it's being released in April but recorded several months beforehand. *Latest update: Dana's book "Get Yourself Out of the Trenches of Teaching And Into the Light Through Discovering Your True Potential" is set to be published late summer 2022 so keep an eye out for that!
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

00:01:24
If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in
Dr. Dana Goodier, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Dr. Dana Goodier: Thank you.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited to have you here. I just read your professional bio but is there anything else you want to add to further introduce yourself to our listeners today?
Dr. Dana Goodier: Well, we connected because we've both been working with Daniel Bauer of Better Leaders Better Schools and, you know, we have different perspectives. Kind of looking at some of the reading that he does with his mastermind. So we'll talk a little bit about some of the reading. and we'll also talk a little bit about my upcoming book that I will highlight one of your questions.

00:02:31
So, I think we'll just go ahead and get started and then if there's anything I'll add it.
Lindsay Lyons: Perfect. That sounds great. And I was so excited to talk about your book. This is really exciting news. As we kind of jump in to think about like, you know, this big thinking that we do around education. I really like centering Dr. Bettina's Love's quote about freedom dreaming where she says, dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, you know, or really what we're talking about. And so I'm curious to know what that big dream is for you in terms of the field of education and where you see, you know, what's possible for it
Dr. Dana Goodier: So I'm thinking of the macro picture right? You want to dream big? You want all, like if I was to say, all districts across the US right? My big dream is to moving to more equitable practices across all districts, right? We're looking more and more at this since the summer of 2020. But I know it's a slow going process and it really depends on what area of the country you're in. And we're seeing, I know not only where I live in Colorado, but there's different places throughout the US

00:03:34
where there is a lot of strife amongst stakeholders, right? Depending on what is being taught in the classroom, and I know some of those stakeholders might not be comfortable with the teachers teaching about history that has been hidden for many generations. However, as a parent of a current middle school or in two children in elementary school, I know that they're like sponges, right? My son was just talking to me the other day. My 8th grade son was talking to me the other day about, he doesn't want to celebrate thanksgiving this year because he knows the true meaning behind what happened. And you know, so it's just interesting how he's, you know, learned a lot of this stuff recently and just reactions. These kids that pick up things and they're like sponges and how as educated, we just need to know that you know, a lot of us are just learning about some of this history right now. But if we want to make the difference, we need to learn how we can make that difference today, right?
As educators make the difference today, so the youth can make that difference tomorrow, right?

00:04:41
We can have a better place for all of us tomorrow. So, you know, this equitable practices and cultural relevant pedagogy, you know, it may not happen all at once, right? And it may take 5 to 10 years, but I'm hoping and you know, by that time in 2030 or so that we, you know, see a lot more of the history being taught in schools that, you know, has been hit.
Lindsay Lyons: Yes, such great points. And I love that you mentioned to just, you know, like that when we make that change today, now our students can, our young people can, you know, grow and live in that way, that is full of change as they grow older and become teachers and all of that. And so I think about a lot of people being frustrated with having to learn or unlearn, right? Like thanksgiving is a great example : unlearn what they've been taught in elementary school or whatever and then have to relearn. But if we just decide now, like we're actually going to teach factual history, those kids won't have to deal with that as adults. That frustration will be gone because they'll actually just learn it right the first time.

00:05:43
And so I think that's such a good point that you're raising.
I know that for a lot of people that's a really difficult transition to make. You know, like having that frustration and having that recognition that maybe what they learned in their own schooling experience or even how they learned in their own schooling experience, you know, is not working for the kids that they're teaching and should be changed. But I think a lot of that requires a real mindset shift around, like, okay, well I thought education was this way and I was always doing it this way and I'm used to doing it. Right now, I'm trying to do better, I'm trying to make this shift. What do you think that requires, you know, what is that shift that's required for people to really achieve that dream of, like you're saying culturally responsive pedagogy and equitable education?
Dr. Dana Goodier: A great question. You know, and as you pointed out, yeah, it does take intentionality, right? I think it takes being open as a teacher, as a leader, as a practitioner. Whether or not your district, in your school building is adopting more culturally relevant practices, you need to be open to learning more about it. You need to take a stance for what you're teaching in your classroom or how you're leading your school.

00:07:02
So you know, if your district has taken an initiative to adopt certain curriculum and to implement certain things, make sure you're informing yourself in attending trainings, right? Also be open to what you can explore more as an educator, how you can be anti racist. Just be open to a reading, listening to podcasts, attending webinars. There's so much out there today, right? And it's an explosion since summer of 2020 but I know there was a lot out there before.
I remember when I went to job interviews like in 2018 and stuff and I would often be asked, you know, we have a very diverse population and you know, how do you teach students with multiple ethnicities and races? And I would always talk about culturally relevant, relevant pedagogy and how you know, I've learned a lot from the principal Catoly for example, and a lot of his books even before he published his most recent book. But so there's always been a lot of information out there, in books, but more so now than ever that you can just consume via the podcasts. And a lot of what I know we've talked about, you were on my podcast and I just think it's just being that open to learning, of being about lifelong learner and having those difficult conversations with stakeholders if needed,

00:08:30
and with our colleagues?
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, that's a great point, right? That is, that it's being a lifelong learner is so inherent in all that we do if we're going to do it well, like we have to keep growing and evolving. And so I really like that you name that and I will ask a question at the very end that comes back to that because I think it's so fun to think about, you know, how are we living that out?
So you mentioned so many great suggestions for action that people could take. Just even things like listening to podcasts, right? Like these little things that are just going to help us continue that learning journey. And I'm wondering are there other steps or specific practices that you would encourage people to do? In terms of like, you know what you have seen be really successful in your practice or what you encourage the people that you work with to do to really bring that out in themselves, and also the like you said, their colleagues and having those conversations.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So if you're a district leader, a school leader or even somebody who's like a teacher coach, you know, leading professional development at your building or even a department chair,

00:09:36
you can help lead and develop professional development at your school. Even just the teacher, even if you're newer to the building, you can reach out to your administration and talk about like you know, do we have an agenda for teaching any of these practices of this year and how would you feel about having that maybe you know, as it could be a recorded P. D? It could be you know, accessible when teachers have time to access that. And it could be just a discussion that you have in teams as well.
I also think something that's a brave action could be putting out posts on social media. This is for any educator right? And in order to get feedback these could be you know polls. These could be you know, just provocative questions right? This could be you know, images and just kind of starting that conversation with that post. Right? I also think definitely blog and blog posts are important.

00:10:39
So I blog for the Teach Better Team. I know there are a few bloggers out there who are doing blogs and that's becoming more popular you know as yourself. You do blogs and some people who have subscribed to their blogs. They have been starting to do vlogs as well. So whether or not you have a newsletter that goes out or you just blog such as I do for an organization. You know, finding a subject that you can blog or blog about that is not provoking and that you can share out on social media and get feedback just as you would with that thought provoking post. And I think as leaders, leaders can be vulnerable to learn more. You know, you are sending the example for your building, more for your district. So the ed leaders need to keep themselves informed through reading. They need to be attending webinars. There's always I mean, I get a ton of emails so there's always webinars going on pretty much every day right?

00:11:41
Some from some educational organization. So if you are working a full time job but you can set aside two hours maybe in the week to attend a webinar, you can always catch the reporting right? And then you can all also advocate for district pd to support culturally relevant pedagogy. And this could be as I said, it could be a P. D. that's accessible. A synchronously right? It could be something that maybe you're having your whole building attend for maybe half a day right? During a teacher work day. But you know, you also want to gauge how much does your staff know and how much is your staff already using, right? It's not going to be a one size fits all necessarily pd right? And you also want to list the help of some of your staff members who are using this in the classroom and have been using this for years. So have them give examples and have them also be the QnA if they're comfortable because those teachers who want to know more, they're gonna want to know how do you implement this in your classroom.

00:12:43
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that's so many great examples right there. From you know, from even just asking the question or advocating like what P. D. do we have available, what when can we use it? And also to like, you know, like you said leading the Pd or even leading what I think we would both probably call Pd in the blog space, right? That's professional development in a sense that just extends beyond and so yeah.
I think organizations like Teach Better, great. I mean even things like Learning for Justice formerly Teaching Tolerance, they let you, I think they even pay you for articles that you write if you're accepted. There's so many organizations that will take blog posts from educators and leaders who are just really excited about this work. And so if you're doing it and you have something to share, you know? Absolutely. I would echo that. And I think one of the things that I've learned that makes it a little bit more manageable to kind of wrap my head around blogging, I used to think I have to talk about something different every single. And then I was like, I have a particular niche or set of niches and that's really helpful.


00:13:44
One of the things that you actually do is help teachers to find kind of their PD niche, and I think that sounds really exciting and was a huge like kind of pivot point for me to really harness my energy and focus it around like these key areas. Can you say a little bit more about what you do in this life?
Dr. Dana Goodier: So yes this is a breakout session I've led at a few conferences and I also have offerings on my website for PD to give you, know, in person or virtual PD to districts and schools. And it's basically meeting with teams and departments and narrowing down how you would want to plan out your PD plan for the year. Now you know, if I were to give a training in February you know, you still want to look at kind of what you've already done, right? And there's so many places that you can go. As I've already mentioned webinars, you know podcast, those types of things. But as a team, you want to find out, like what where is an area of focus we want to work on and that you know could be the trauma informed practices, culturally relevant pedagogy. It could be more focused on literacy and you know curricular materials.


00:14:55
So you know, when you're thinking of adult learning, when I developed the P. D., this pd, but also when I was working on the capstone for my doctorate, it was a professional develop module for a school district. I had never written a big pd for adults before, right? And when I got some feedback from the Director of Professional Development in the district, she was just saying, we'll think about how kids work. Right? So when I do this session I talked about, you know, when you start a school year with kids, you think about, you want to help them identify what kind of order they are, right? So as adults, you know we could be visual, auditory or kinesthetic learners right?
And an example I'll tell you of like a conference definitely that has a lot of kinesthetic learning that I've spoken at is the SHAPE Conference. It's the pe teacher conference, right?

00:15:56
So you're gonna have obviously a lot of things with jump ropes and those type of things. But are you the type of learner whether or not you teach P. E. that likes a type of session and this will mostly for those in person sessions but it could be for virtual, likes type of session where you're getting up and about in your, you know, you have hands on things, right? You're moving around, it's not just to sit and get. Or are you the type of learner who just likes to listen. So I would say probably myself because I consume a lot of podcasts and you know, I'll go on a run and I'll listen to these podcasts a lot of time. I'll probably say I'm an auditory learner, right? But I do like to listen and then take notes a lot of the time as well. You know, some people are those visual learners and they'll read read, read. You know, those are the people who consume a lot of the, the post, the visual posts and read a lot of these blocks. So, you know, I will, I always start out that at the session by talking about what type of learner are you, right? And then just narrowing down those choices and I highlight things like getting started with a book club.

00:16:59
And I think that's something that a lot of schools did start during the shutdown in the spring of 2020. But some schools probably haven't even thought about that still yet, right?
And I was part that spring also in the district of a book club with, it was the, it was a book by Diana Graber about teaching. Well, I don't remember exactly the name of the book, but it's about technology and tech tools and teaching students, right. With the tech tools and, you know, cyber safety. Right? So, you know, when you have those type of book clubs and it could be a synchronous or it can be live, right? And leading the book clubs for your school and, you know, having people learn through just reading of, you know, chapters and I know both of us have been in the mastermind. We read books and we discussed those and we might not always get to the chapters during the session that we're meeting with the group

00:17:59
, but just how you're being held accountable, right? You're being told to read those chapters. You're learning a lot from the book that you're reading. So I think that's a big part of it in finding your pd niche and, you know, there's a lot more I could say, but I encourage people to check out the trading I guess. And if you'd like to have, speak to your school or district or you know, all be speaking hopefully at conferences coming up as well, sending out several proposals for, there are some in person conferences in the spring.
Lindsay Lyons: That's amazing. And I love that you're talking about content and also process, right? Like how do you learn as well as what is your kind of area of focus? And I love that it's focused and it's also, I think for leaders hearing this, recognizing that their teachers learn in a variety of ways. And so even if as a school we have the same similar content focus or as a team, that's going to need different mechanisms of delivery, just like you said. With students, how they learn, and I think that's a great, just even reminder, if that's already something people are like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.

00:19:04
I mean as a leader to be like, do I have the option for someone to consume during their commute a podcast or something, you know, where we can multitask when our plates are already so overloaded. I think as educators many times like how do I, you know, tap into what my teachers really need in that way. So super valuable. I encourage everyone to go check out Dana's website and I'll link to that in the show notes to in the blog post for the episode.
The other thing I'm really interested in your work on is working with stakeholders to identify attendance challenges in students history. Also, you know, pre Covid even, right? And that cycle of truancy, like how do we really how do we stop that? How do we really address what's going on there at the root?
Dr. Dana Goodier: And like you said, it's getting to the bottom of the problem, like looking at the root cause. Right? So I'll give an example. So when I've worked as an Attendance Dean for example. I looked at seventh grader and you want to look at data. You know, going back several years. You're not just looking at the seventh grade year. You want to look at, you know, how are they attending, even back to fifth grade, even in elementary school, right?

00:20:16
And depending on what type of data system your district uses, a lot of districts use Infinite Campus, but you might be using something that has a visual, you know, you could use graphs, things like that. But drilling it down to looking at the days of the week that the student didn't attend, which is often those bookends of the weekends, right? The Monday in the Friday, right? It could be, if you're looking at a secondary school student looking at certain teachers to the student isn't attending the class of right? Or looking at certain times of day. The student might be rolling in at 10:30 in the morning.
So you definitely want to look at some of those pieces in order to be able to turn around the cycle of truancy, right? Because whether or not you're in an administrative position, working with attendance or you're a teacher and you're just trying to get your students come to class. Because that was something when I taught French for example. And, you know, you're teaching new things all the time and you're teaching them foreign language,

00:21:21
you know, become frustrating if I didn't see a student for a couple of weeks. So I was very much on top of making sure I contacted the parents and finding out, you know, if there's something that was going on at home and you know, making sure that the student was able to pick up missing worker coming for help. But you know, you really just got to form those relationships. I think it's also like knowing like if the high schoolers coming in the third period they, you know, missed 1st and 2nd. And it could be because of dropping off a younger sibling. It could be you know, a middle school or who is just not waking up because there's nobody at home when school starts. It could be you know, there's peers in a certain teachers class and they just don't want to be around those peers. So it's not just, you know, it's not using the punitive approach.
I know so long districts, you know, they look at the parties and they'll, you know, say you have all these absences and it's just gonna stack against you and you know, some some districts have gone to the extremes that say, you know, if you have X

00:22:26
number of absences, you're going to get a letter grade, a lower letter grade or something like that. So I think it's stopping the truancy in its tracks before it's too late, right? So if you're working with student attendance at the beginning of the year, you want to look at you know, the historical data, right? Look at how they were last year. Look at it and it averages have taken place, right? There's the RTI Process and TSS Process. However, you know, educators have stretched them, like you're saying. So have there been people that have reached out? So and then like looking throughout the year, right? If you're in November December, right? How has the student's attendance been? If you're getting towards winter break and the student is approaching the 10-15 days of absences, unexcused absences, you know, they are approaching that chronically truant label, right? And they might be up for a student review board at their district, which could lead to truancy court, right?


00:23:27
So then it gets more serious. So it's keeping track of those students. It's making sure that them and their parents are well informed of the need to attend. And I know it's, you know, I'm talking mostly about pre Covid, but you know, we have a lot of students right now who are coming back into the building in the fall of 2021. And you know, they might not have attended if their school was virtual most of the year last year. They might not have attended much, right? So it's kind of getting used to being back in the building.
It's if there's a high school where for example, who took a full time job and it's still in that job. It's finding other options. Means those districts do have some type of an online option or alternative school. So it's finding other ways to achieve those credits for those high schoolers. So, but I think it's, you know, it's that team, it's a team approach is that process. It's the communication with the stakeholders and it's everybody who works with the student. Also just being on board to help the students succeed and to pass along the information needed to the parents.

00:24:30
And, you know, if the parents are really busy, they're working two or three jobs, it's also just making sure the student is aware and you know, that there's some type of a family member who also maybe grandparent or somebody who really knows the importance of that student getting to school on time.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow! So many wonderful ideas there. And I, they, you know, resonate intellectually. But also I found myself at times resonating personally because I always was a person who struggled to get there first thing in the morning. So I had my brother and my sister and I was the oldest. I was the one who always drove and I would always have to like corral everyone in. We would always be late. And the policy was, if you're late three times you get detention and what that actually manifested as I was late to softball practice or basketball practice or I couldn't go to math tutoring, which I did after school. Like I needed that tutoring to pass the class. And so it's interesting how these punitive things that we actually put into place might actually hurt people's experience in the school of belonging or in extracurriculars or with academic, you know, progress.

00:25:33
And so I think so much of that resonated with me and just looking at all of the data, thinking to look the year before or, you know, a few grades before, brilliant. And I don't know why I like, I've never thought about that or I've never heard of anyone doing that, so I really appreciate you naming that.
I also want to make sure we save time to talk about your book and I'm really excited about this, so it's going to be published by the Road To Awesome Publishing. Can you tell us more about the book? What's it about? You know, how did you come to this idea or what's it been like to write the book? Whatever you think would be interesting for people.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So, you know, I came to the idea, I would say, you know, having hosted my podcast Out of the Trenches that I launched in May of 2020. And, you know, I got this idea basically a year later. Kind of May, June of 2021. You know, I've had a lot of people on who were launching their books and you know, I had a couple of those people were publishing through Road To Awesome. So, you know, and I read their books and, you know, it kind of got the idea. You know, I've written a doctorate, I did a capstone instead of a dissertation, but it was still quite lengthy and went through that process of getting it approved and everything. But you know, this is not academic work, right?


00:26:48
The fact that we have to have, you know, certain academic language and, you know, all our bibliography a certain way that the university requires. Right? So it's not that hard. I would say of writing is when you're doing a doctorate. So, you know, I've written a lot of blogs the past year. I've been writing with Teach Better team. But also when you're writing a book, you know, you have to kind of think about the big picture, right? So, I would say a challenge is kind of writing over a longer period of time right now. I'm aiming to get a manuscript done probably in the next month or so. So, you know, and I'm hoping depending on the kind of turnaround process with the edits and all that, that it would be out in the spring of 2022.
So it is about, you know, the out of the trenches, where what are they basically is your trench? Right? A lot of people have interviewed for the podcast would say they are currently in the trenches and they like being in the trenches. So, you know, that a lot of people would say they defined the trenches as the work with the students and getting there, you know, feet dirty. So, you know, what does that mean for you?

00:28:00
You know, how is that, how does that manifest in your work and the difference you make in kids lives? You know, another part of that is also finding your why, and why it's important to define your why. I think since the pandemic started, a lot of people are kind of re-evaluating their why, right? A lot of people are shifting to different types of positions or leaving education altogether. So it's redefining your why, finding out what's important. It's also about really what is the trench? And is it something that you want to get out of?
So, on my podcast, I always ask people, tell me about the time when you're in the trenches and managed to crawl out. And you know, as I said, some people say, I'm currently still in the trenches, but a lot of people might go back to when they first started teaching, right, in a difficult situation or something that caught them off guard, right? It's something they learned from and became a better person.


00:29:01
So, you know, these, I would say kind of roller coaster situations, as educators kind of what have they taught us. So that's also a part of it is you know, we all go through challenges. You know, failure does not define us. So those are some of the big ideas for the book and there is a video about the book and you could put the link in the show notes. It's on the road to Austin dot net website. So there's a bunch of authors listed there, but under my information, there is a short video where I talk about it and yeah, people can find out more. So I'm excited.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm excited too. That sounds amazing and I encourage people to check that out. I will draft that link. You have gone through so many amazing, really concrete both examples and suggestions for people to take as they are listening to this episode. I'm sure people's minds are kind of like all over the place of like, oh, I could do this or this and so I'm wondering what's a good starting point for people?

00:30:04
So if they're really trying to live in alignment with those values of justice and equity and that dream that you shared at the start, you know. Where might be a good place to start as kind of the one next thing that they could do.
Dr. Dana Goodier: Yeah, I think it's just finding the resources that you need to inform yourself on equitable practices. And you know, there's so much out there, but you know, you could, if you want to start from scratch, it's just Google it, right? Articles, you know, what's been recently published? What are some good people to follow? Right? It's also attending pd which it could be those webinars.] It could be listening to a podcast and I'll suggest one in the next question. But it's also having those conversations with colleagues. So if you are working with colleagues who are currently, you know, and have been using culturally relevant pedagogy for a long time, it's asking questions. What can I do to be more open and learn more about this? You know, there's a lot of people who have a lot of resources they can share.

00:31:09
It's asking questions, you know, if you are teaching, if you are a white educator and you're teaching mostly students of color, it's asking, you know, how do I present this topic or am I going about it the right way or you know, being aware of our biases are unconscious biases, right? And not being afraid to ask because I think as educators we know that, you know, as I said, people are always learning and we all want to support each other. So I don't think people will look at others negatively if they have those questions and they want to learn more and they're being vulnerable in the fact that, you know, I might not be so important about this particular topic and I want to learn more and I think that opens the door to just that, just having a more constructive conversation with a colleague and developing a better relationship with somebody we might not have really known before, we might have worked with for several years.
Lindsay Lyons: That is great advice.

00:32:10
Thank you. And I'm curious to know, I know I previewed this earlier, but I love asking this question at the end. What is something, as a lifelong learner, that you have been learning about lately?
Dr. Dana Goodier: Well, so in the Mastermind with Daniel Bauer, we've been reading about the history of the caste system in America. The book is Caste by Isabel Wilkerson and it is a history book pretty much, but it kind of ties things into more modern history as well. And in some parts of the book, it parallels, the treatment of African Americans in America and parallels that with treatment of the Jews during Nazi Germany. And so I think that's interesting and also talks about kind of how this is effective modern society, right? So very eye opening. Some people would say it's a difficult read. I really don't think it's a difficult read. It just, it kind of goes into many, I'm not done with it yet, but it just goes into so many areas. And so I would definitely suggest that book and anything that's, you know, more just about like, so as I mentioned earlier, like principal Catoly, I forgot the name of his most recent book. But you know, culturally relevant pedagogy books that he's written right? The 100 things that you want to know.

00:33:43
So those are either easier reads right, that you can read in a few days. Also I want to suggest the Leading Equity podcast with Dr. Sheldon Eakins. I had him on the podcast about a year ago, but he has his own podcast that he's been putting episodes out for several years. And so he's a lot of the episodes. He, it seems to me he's interviewing people who are maybe at the university level or people who have read books on equity and kind of their experiences with, you know, kind of teaching and students that they've interacted with, but, you know, very thought provoking conversations as well.
Lindsay Lyons: I would strongly echo both of those. Caste was one of the best books that I think I've read in the last couple of years and Leading Equity is one of my favorite podcasts. So I definitely agree with those recommendations.
Speaking of podcasts, you have your own podcast. So people should go check that out right? Out of the Trenches, you named before. And then where else can people find you online or connect with you or learn about what you're doing.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. my Twitter handle is just my name@DanaGoodier.

00:34:50
I also have a podcast Out of Trenches PC and on Instagram it's Out of Trenches PC. You can find me on LinkedIn and also my website is just my name, danagoodier.com.
Lindsay Lyons: That's amazing. Thank you Dana so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate this conversation.
Dr. Dana Goodier: It was my pleasure.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

​*Latest update: Dana's book "Get Yourself Out of the Trenches of Teaching And Into the Light Through Discovering Your True Potential" is set to be published late summer 2022 so keep an eye out for that!
Links: 

• Caste by Isabel Wilkerson
• The Leading Equity Podcast with Dr. Sheldon Eakins 
• Video preview of Dana's book
• Dr. Goodier can be found on: 
  • Website (podcast & PD are on here!) 
  • Twitter (Dana & podcast)
  • Instagram
  • LinkedIn

​​

Lindsay: I'm so excited for you to hear from today's guest, Mark Taylor. Mark has been a professional percussionist for 25 years and has had the opportunity of performing with some of the UK's finest orchestras and theater companies. Finding his passion and voice through music gave Mark the desire to share this understanding through his drum and percussion teaching, which he provides in schools and in his private practice.
Each person has their own interest to follow and story to tell. However, there are some common threads of knowledge and wisdom that sparked a flame in Mark to find out more, a desire to share these ideas with the world. This was the beginning of his podcast : Education on Fire. Mark interviews educators from around the world so that he can enable you to support your children to live, learn and grow to their full potential. Having spoken to over 200 guests, Mark uses these insights to support teachers and parents in his role as vice chair of the National Association for Primary Education, a non-political charity in the UK. I want to name that this episode was recorded August 9th of 2021. Let's get to the episode.


00:01:07
Hi! I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Mark Taylor, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Mark: Lindsay, thank you so much. I really appreciate you asking me to be a guest.
Lindsay: I'm so excited to have you and I love that, I got to be on your show and now you're on mine, so this is such a cool continuation of a previous conversation. I just read your professional bio at the top of the episode and I'm just wondering, is there anything you want to add to that in terms of context, things that we should know about you?


00:02:20E
Mark: I guess the main thing is because I don't believe in the silo way of life. You know, I've got 3 children at home, you know, one of them is just about to turn 20 unbelievably. And then two other teenagers. So I've sort of seen them through the primary stage and into the secondary stage and then beyond and we're just in this kind of little hiatus of them going to college and all of that kind of thing. So I think that kind of context in terms of having a parental experience of the breath of education and how that cates well, it takes a different kind of context when you're on that side of the fence and just being an educator I think is really important. And you know, the silo thing is important because obviously many teachers and leaders listening are going to be parents as well and it's having that slightly different hats and I don't think that's really interesting. And it certainly came across the course when there was all the homeschooling because teachers and leaders and everything doing everything in sort of juggling all those things together, those different hats and ways of coming across makes a big difference to the perspective of how you take these things on.
Lindsay: Absolutely. And such a valuable perspective to have to, because it's such a, I imagine, I'm not a parent but it's, you know, it's such a different experience. I imagine from that parent view, so thank you so much for contextualizing that.

00:03:31
And I hope more guests, you know, want to talk about that as well, so thank you for setting that stage. One of the first questions I always ask is in line with the idea of freedom dreaming, which Dr Bettina Love describes as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. I'm curious to know what is the big dream that you hold for the field of education.
Mark: For me it was really the idea of opportunity and the idea that it's all about questioning and the lens that we put this in the environment that we put the contextual idea of it in, rather than every child should be this level at this age, in this subject in their way. And I think to understand that when every child is born, they have this natural ability to grow. You know, we don't teach them to walk, we don't teach them to do these things, it's in built, we give them the environment, they need to keep them safe, all of that kind of stuff, and just allow them to go. And we kind of lose that as we start to go through the education world, and the system doesn't necessarily give that breadth that you actually need.

00:04:35
And so I kind of think to bring that into the education world, I think then just enables so many things to happen organically, whether it's well being, whether it's the ability to feel like any aspiration is possible. And then our job is just to be able to then, okay, how do we go about making sure they understand how to go about it.
Lindsay: I love that idea, and I love the comparison to walking because it's absolutely right, we're not like, okay, you take this foot and then you go here. We just kind of let it happen and we trust that it will happen. And I just wonder like, you know, I think there's so much trust that is missing from the process in terms of educators trusting children and students in our educational context. I think, you know, we lose that more and more as we kind of push kids through this traditional model of schooling, so I'm fascinated by that comparison. Thank you for that.
Mark: That's right. Just as a little aside to that. Today, I was, we were on the summer holidays here in the UK. And my youngest daughter is into gymnastics and tumbling and you know, it goes a couple of times a week and does athletics and all that kind of thing, and there's clubs after school. And then this last few weeks it's been very sort of, we're just at home, you know, she's not being able to go to a couple because it's the holidays and she's been in her room a lot. She's now sort of 14, so we're thinking we need to structure the activities that we do this, and I'm sort of talking to myself in terms of, it's their holidays, they worked really hard, they've just been through a year of homeschooling, you know, all of that kind of thing.


00:06:03
And then just as I was kind of thinking, I don't know, maybe I should do something or say something or be the parent or teacher or whatever it happens to be. She's sort of walked past me, went out into the garden with her gym mat that she got herself from the garage, went onto the lawn and spent an hour or two out stretching, balancing, doing all of that stuff completely on her own. And I thought, yes, I'm glad I didn't say anything. That natural ability of just giving her the space she needed to relax to get the old term out of her system to enjoy time with her friends, which she did with a couple of sleepovers, hence the tiredness as well as the teenager. And then away she goes back to her natural self and wanting to be active and stretching and all of that. And I thought, yeah, just sometimes you just need that breadth and the ability for these things to happen organically.
Lindsay: That's a perfect example. That is amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And when we think about, kind of the, I almost think about the hesitancy of teachers and you know, educational leaders to enable students to just do that, right? To be able to just be go forth and learn in the way that they do and give them that space and just kind of focus on the environment that we create for them to learn.

00:07:14
I'm curious to know what mindset shifts you think that educators, educational leaders are going to need to have if they've been doing education in a traditional way, not letting kind of loose the reins, so to speak, you know, and letting students just experiment and kind of find their way. What would you say to those educators or people who work with those educators or people who work under those leaders, to try to make it possible for that kind of vision that you have for education to be possible in their realities.
Mark: I think in a lot of way it needs to be fearless. And it also needs to be empowered by leaders and teachers who know all of this stuff already. I think that the hardest thing at the moment is that the system, I mean, certainly in the UK and I'm sure it's the same in the US as well, it's that kind of, you know, the grades, the standards, it must look like this, it has to be like this, everyone needs to conform. That's just stifling, it's just really difficult to do. Whereas those leaders who say, "let's forget all of that, let's start with : what does every child need? They need to be loved. They need to be nurtured, they need to be inspired.

00:08:22
They need to have the opportunity to experience. They need to be part of a community." You know, what is it that we want our children when they leave this area of their education to move onto the next thing? What do we want them to leave with? And then with that, you'll bring in what you need. You know, there's going to be Arts, there's going to be Sports, there's going to be Humanities. There's, you know, as well as the STEM subjects and all of that. It's not about one particular thing. It's about starting with all of those things.
And one of the things I quite like is my podcast is Education on Fire, and the fire, I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm talking with my daughter as well and I said I need to come up with some kind of sort of acronym or something which helps sort of work with that. And we came up together. We were just in the car on a journey and we said: "Failure". Really really important to understand what failure is and in a safe environment, you know, what is that? Because we've all fail over and over and over again. But let's make sure that we know what that means and how it works and how we grow and what we learn from it.
"Inspiration". When we just had the Olympics. You know, one of the things on the TV

00:09:23
this morning for us was Max Whitlock and Adam Peaty, two of our gold winning medalists, talking about the effort they put in and what they can do and how they want to give back to students, and that's inspirational! I mean, that's amazing. But then you need the "Resilience" because, of course that's great, I'd love to be an olympic medalist. However, that's going to take some work. It's going to take some understanding you know, how do I find a coach where do all of that kind of stuff, really, really important. And then the most important thing then for the E was the "Empowerment".
So okay, great. You've got this. Inspiration is where you want to go. How do we then go about it? How do we give them the idea of well being? Where do they find a mental? Where's that teacher that really sees the student who can then take them under their wing and show them the way to go. You know, you need to learn this, you need to understand that. Where can we put all these things together to put you on the right path? And with all of those things, every child has the chance to do what they were born to do in a natural way. There doesn't have to be, as I said, siloed into certain things. And I think that's really important because then it's fearless and like I said, those those leaders that can create that environment and be fearless like that,
Of course we live in a system that has testing and it has all those things that we've talked about already.

00:10:39
But generally speaking because the breadth of the understanding and the knowledge that the children have experienced, they usually thrive in that and they excel because they're doing it from a sense of that perspective : "I might fail, but I'm going to give it a good go. I've found the teacher that can really support me to do it, you know? I'm inspired by the fact that I know my older brother managed to achieve it last year or the year before. I've seen someone else do it, you know. And I actually know about how to go about it. If I don't, okay, I'll try again next year or the year after. Or maybe this particular thing doesn't matter. I'll do it in a different way, in a different subject with a different person." But all of it is a positive step by step learning experience to for them to live their life, which is what it's all about, rather than everyone living the same life. And I think that fearless, I guess kind of picture and model in an environment that leaders can create, that's the way to do it. And then allow the rest of it to kind of seeped through into the world of what education and school looks like from the outside as it were looking in rather than starting with that child. What do we want them to leave their school with?

00:11:44
Let's start there and let the rest of it take care of itself.
Lindsay: I love that. And that acronym is amazing. I am so excited about that,
Mark: I'd love to take all the credit, but it was my daughter that came up with most of them, which I love even more because it comes from the people that I'm trying to help. So it's fantastic.
Lindsay: It's totally like modeling in action what you're talking about in this.
Mark: Absolutely,
Lindsay: And I love that it starts with a failure as well, because it's such a, you know, a moment where you're like, well, the first letter stands for a failure, like that, you know, that's so uncommon in education. And so to just kind of throw that out there and kind of give people that moment of like, oh, I need to shift my mind around this because this is not what I'm used to hearing and it's just so powerful. And I'm thinking about, you know, when we moved to, okay, this is how we need to think. This is kind of the mindset stuff we've been talking about and then we moved to, well, how do we put that into action? What is the brave action that I need to take to make this kind of "FIRE" model come to life in my class? I'm just thinking about a bunch of different possibilities. How do you envision people putting this model into being in their classroom or their school?


00:12:49
Mark: I think a part of it, or actually the majority of it, is just having these conversations about what it is that we want to do. What is it about us, as people. What is it about us as a community of schools, about how we want to show up and do it. And then you have the opportunity to say, and it looks like this in this situation based on maybe something that's happened personally, you know. So you might have deemed this a failure because you've got 10 out of 20 in a test. But what did we learn from it? What did you learn that you didn't know about it? How can we change it? Right now, I want to do a little bit more, you know? Okay, so we'll go about that. Here's the skills that we need. Read this, do this. Can I help you with this? And so you've got that personal element that you can do child on child, or class on class? Or even show it from above, like say, just talking about sort of Olympic athletes, you know, seeing it from a story you're given by someone who's kind of been there and done it as it were, you know.
If that's an important part of what you're looking at or studying or want to sort of put into their awareness. You can see it from all those different perspectives, but I think it all just then comes down to the hearing now, you know?

00:13:57
So what am I feeling now, did I fail? Actually, I didn't fail, you know. How do I want to go about learning it? Well, I can do this : what's my next step? Who supported me? Or you are as my teacher or you are as my mentor, my guide or whoever it happens to be. And I think understanding that and understanding that it's also further around and just your immediacy of your school, it might be someone just outside of your school. It might be a parent, it might be a friend. It might be, they will do in the same sort of thing. And once you identify the traits and the understanding and what will get you to, what you think you're going to achieve in, and that of course that changes and you don't know what it is, but it all comes down to a feeling. This feels good. This I want to find out more about this. I want to experiment with. There's not quite so much. Okay, well let's go with the good stuff. Let's feel how that goes and then you can thrive. And I think a combination of all of those things are going to certainly give you the impetus, you need to put you on the right path
Lindsay: And I'm hearing a lot in there to moments for reflection, like creating that environment where we enable students to reflect on that test score. Or you know, reflect on whatever failure it was and think about, is this the path I want to go down?

00:15:05
I mean those are questions that I think, sometimes we, as teachers, have informally with students. We think of this as something we do, you know, in between classes or before the school day officially starts. But building in time for that, you know, actual class day as part of a lesson, enabling that personalization that you're talking about, I think is a wonderful opportunity and kind of necessary in the world that you're creating here for us to think about and so pivotal when we think about. I think a lot about the curriculum design and I'm fascinated by curriculum design, but one of the things I hear a lot is we don't have time in the curriculum to do social emotional learning or this thing or this, you know, and thinking about, can we have a curriculum, can we create something that is so flexible and enables for that breath of, you know, talking about failure, talking about what kids are interested in and their passions and helping them co- create requires that kind of flexibility and reflective moments.

00:16:05
And so I love that, that's just kind of part of what I'm hearing, as you're explaining what this would actually look like in practice.
Mark: Yeah, and I think it has to be that because then you've always got the skills and the emotional context and the understanding of yourself about the next thing. Because like we said, whether that's about your math test or maybe it's about something related to sporting activity you did, or maybe there's something really happening in your home life that you don't know how to go about it.
The same things apply, because you're getting used to what life is all about and how you show up in it and how you perceive it and how you can go about changing it if you want to or accepting it, if it just needs accepting. So then you've got the skills that you need and then you can adapt it. Because I think the one thing we all know about the world moving forward is It's not going to be anything like it is today. It wasn't like it was 20 years ago. So therefore that is the most important thing and to give our children the skills they need for that, to let them fly, to let them solve the problems that need to be solved. To feel empowered that they can do it whether they fail 100 times, but get it 101 times or whether they, you know, it's just an understanding that they're on the right path and they're going to keep doing it and they can surround themselves with the people they need to surround themselves with, you know, again and again and again, it's a positive situation rather than I'm now learning this or this subject or this thing all in those silos, which just kind of, I don't know that's just the thing about I'm going to school, I do as I'm told, I don't ask any questions, I did pretty well on the test.

00:17:35
Okay, great. Now I'm 18 and now, what do I do? You know I mean? The whole thing is just a completely different situation.
Lindsay: Yeah, totally doesn't prepare people for life. And so I love that what you're talking about prepares people for life, right? This is so profound and so well said. Thank you so much for summarizing that. And the way that you did, I just think there's so much to think about there.
One of the things that people ask me a lot of times is, okay, Lindsay you're talking about this ideal situation or you're talking about justice or whatever and your experiences in the high school setting. But what does this look like for younger grades or younger levels of schooling. And so you are the vice chair of the National Association for Primary Education in the UK. Amazing. And I'm just curious to know, can you speak to what that type of education might look like in those younger grades.
Mark: Yeah. I had a fantastic conversation recently with Jonathan Lear, and he's one of the associates for an organization called Independent Thinking, and he's also a class teacher, and he was talking to me about the curriculum. And he's, I think it's now deputy head of an inner city school, multiple languages at all spoken in the school and you know, they have the same pressures of kind of, it must look like this and this is the curriculum and this is the national curriculum and how did you put it together?

00:18:56
And they took a step back and they were like, okay, what is it that we want the children to understand and learn because of course that's going to be very different for everyone, especially with the type of community that they have. And the one thing they learned was that they did the first step, which I think lots of people start to do, which is, we need to be more creative. Okay, so let's have a fantastic curriculum which has all this great inquiry and topic based and you know, wind all that in with some of the subjects which are traditionally taught in a traditional way in terms of two plus two is four and you do need to learn that at some stage in some way or another.
But what he said, we found was is it was still us as the adults, kind of leading the children. It was still our creativity. Yes, it was fantastic and it might be, you know, a really inspiring day about whatever the topic had to be. But it still came from them and then the children did some fantastic work related to it. However, it still was the adults setting the scene and then the children doing a very good job within it.


00:20:00
And so what they did was they took it another step forward and they made it really, really inquiry based. And so the example that he gave was, he said they were doing sort of earthquakes, natural disasters, volcanoes, that kind of topic, which we do here in the UK. And he said, for example, normally, the art part of that is a paper mache brilliant model of a volcano and you can do the science with it and make it explode and all of that kind of stuff, brilliant. Excellent. You learn loads of stuff and everyone's very happy. Brilliant. You know, that was really great. But then you said beyond that you then sort of take it and the concepts and take it even further. So they then started talking about, okay, so you're in an earthquake, there's been a natural disaster. You know, let's talk about how that would look in terms of resilience. What sort of adversity would you find yourself in? You know, what strength would you need? What would the world look like afterwards? What if your village was the one that was just by the volcano?

00:21:02
What do you do then? And he said then all of a sudden we had a conversation, you know, one child will be talking about, well, I'd be really scared and you know, could we run away. You know, would we have to have no possessions at all? What would that feel like?
And he said at that point, we've created the environment. We've set the topic. We're still in control. You know, we are the teachers, we are providing the curriculum, but where that then led, the art doesn't necessarily need to be a paper mache volcano. It could be anything, you know. And it gets very personal. It gets very conversational and it can take you in any particular direction. And that is then a way of all of the skills from all the subjects and all the things that you want to cover then come into the sort of focus because children decide they want to take it in this direction or that direction. So we can do this or we can do that or we can do the other. And there is no final outcome. It doesn't need to look like the perfect volcano paper mache thing, which is what you kind of want because you can go take: Yes, that's what we wanted.

00:22:06
Some children did a good one, Some did not so good one. This one was amazing. There's no volcano paper mache end, It could be anything, you know.
And he said that's brilliant because then it's all about the questioning, it's about the environment. Where do we want to take this? Do we even need to do a piece of art like that? Can it be a piece of writing? You know? Actually I'm feeling I want to talk about how I was feeling as I saw the ash start to come down. Okay, well let's maybe talk about, let me draw a picture of it actually just being completely desolate after it happened. So no longer we're doing big science things and lots of explosions. We're just doing a completely dark gray, desolate kind of piece of work. It's kind of giving the emotion in the understanding of what that was. That's not something the teacher said you had to do. That's not something that came from "I need to do a piece of art." It came from an expression of what was related to the topic beyond it. And I think all of a sudden that kind of gives everyone the ability, I think, to be empowered to take it in their own direction

00:23:16
because of course you could have the same conversation in a different school, in a different country, in a different county in the UK and they'd all have a different idea about what they want that to be. And then you can really start to support them. If you think why there's somewhere here, we can take this even further. Or you can sort of decide, are there somewhere we can take this. Have you heard about this? Have you heard about that? There's a situation that happened in a different country. Let's just look at that for now. And so you can guide it, but you're not in complete control and you don't have a picture of what you'd like it to end up with. Again back to that. You need to be a fearless leader to do that because you don't know what that end result is going to be. But I would bet nine times out of 10 it's a hell of a lot further or higher in what your expectation would be that you would probably set had you set out to begin with.
Lindsay: That's such a great point and a great example. I think so many times my students have surprised me. You know, even in the higher grades, just when we enable them to kind of follow their own path of inquiry and that's such a powerful example.

00:24:20
It makes me think of, you know, the driving question of a unit. Like you might set the driving question of the unit to be something like, you know, what would happen or how would you experience this event or something? And then from there, I mean that's an engaging question that everyone's going to want to answer from there. They develop their own project specific questions and I think that kind of balance between what you're saying, there's still an ability to guide, there's still ability to spark the interest right away, and go to all those places that you initially wanted them to. You know, we're gonna learn about volcanoes, we're gonna learn about all these things. But to have them guide that and to have them kind of niche down into, well this is the subtopic, within volcanoes that I'm super interested in. And so I'm just gonna have the freedom to go there, is so wonderful. And I hope that balance between, you know, guiding and student voice, enabling student voice helps people kind of paint a picture of, oh this is possible for my class and I can do this and it doesn't seem as scary as just completely letting go of all control. And so this is a lovely picture you're painting for us.
Mark: And I think the one thing that came across from my conversation with him was the fact that he said it might look different next year because, you know, we created this and we've learned, as educators and leaders and teachers, of how we thought it might go and were surprised. But we can also then tweak that slightly differently to make it even better with different boundaries or support network or whatever, it happens to be, not being rigid ourselves as leaders to think all right, okay, now we found the, you know, the golden bullet or the silver bullet rather to kind of make it look a certain way so that it then looks fantastic and we know that within this we're going to get some great results to be able to morph and change and see how it is.


00:26:00
The next year group is a different year group with different personalities and different situations. And so I think, yeah, just to have it from both sides that we're all learning, we're all morphing, we all have that fluidity to kind of beyond that journey together, we're learning together and I think that's a really powerful place to be
Lindsay: Super powerful. I love that. And I know we kind of mentioned arts within that framework of the volcano example and what could art look like. And so as an advocate for the arts and education yourself, what ways have you seen art be used, you know, in education to help students have that voice, to help students pursue whatever their interests are and really help them flourish as people in the classroom?
Mark: Well, I think that the main thing is my personal experience and I'm a professional musician, you know. I'm a drummer and percussionist and I've got to play all over the world and all sorts of different situations. But I remember being at school and you know, you go to Math, you go to English to French, you do all of those subjects and then we did Music. And there was something about that that was different.

00:27:04
And I had a drum teacher who kind of took me under his wing and I thought this is really great and he said, "maybe you should perform in some local ensembles.", which I did and the whole world opened up. But what it did is it showed me there was a voice that I could use to show up in the world as me in a way that I didn't in any other way.
And I think that's what the arts does. You know, whether it's in drama, whether it's actually art in its traditional sense in terms of creating something or painting or drawing or whatever it is. If you can find a way to show up in the world authentically, I think the arts gives you that outlet. And I think that's where the broad curriculum comes from. You know, it may be sport, it may be something else, but the arts, I think just for so many people, it gives them an environment where they can actually say yes, there's something I can just pinpoint. It was this bit of drama, it was this play, it was this, you know, reading this some particular piece of text that just that really spoke to me, what does that mean?

00:28:07
Why did I feel like this then when I've never felt it before, or I felt that once more, but that was in my real life not to do with this. Why did identify with that? And again with them, back to the questioning and then hopefully because you've created the environment within the school, that question then goes back into school, whether it's the teacher or mentor whoever it is. What was this? Where does this come from? And then again, off you can go and make that kind of work and, you know, that sort of emphasis of like, great, this is something in your life which you want to just explore whether that's something that lasts a day, a week, a month, a year or in my case, my career. You know, it just opened up that entire world and I think it's really, really important from that point of view
And the other thing, which I know, it's certainly when children struggle and they have mental health issues and that kind of thing. The one thing that's always at the front of everything is: we're going to do some art related stuff. We're going to take everything back to its simplest way. We're going to color in. We're going to draw. We're going to just do something that just focuses the mind on the here and now. And I think there's very little in the arts that you can do, which doesn't make you be in the hearing now.
And that's really, really important because then that gives you a connection with yourself.

00:29:24
So there's the voice in terms of, yes, this is me, I can tell you what I'm all about. But there's also the understanding of there's, there's more to this than just another subject. And I think just having, just knowing that as educators giving that as an option not but just because it's a wider opportunity within the curriculum, but because it's an integral part of what we want our students to experience, no matter how far they take that in their life, but it's very different than just a broad curriculum then it's actually about that real kind of learning and empowerment.
Lindsay: Wow! I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it in that way, in both that it helps you be in the here and now, and it also helps you find a way to show up authentically in the world. That is so powerful and so connected to, you know, a lot of the work that I do around student voice and student leadership and so powerful for the, I mean, the world is always changing and current events are always happening and things are always going on. But covid particularly I think for a lot of kids, you know, to be just here and now in a particular classroom in a particular moment and to kind of land there as opposed to kind of being all over the place in your head, thinking about, you know, how's how's grandma recovering from Covid or you know, like all of these different things that are happening in our world, I think that's so profound in so many ways, both being in the here and now and being an agent of change for your community in so many ways and I just absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing that
Mark: Pleasure, and I think it carries on a little bit for what we spoke about when you're on my show. We were talking about that kind of student voice and being able to be on a board or to chat to the leadership about what you want to do.

00:31:07
You know, this also kind of gives you, you know, if there's arts in there and you know, you decided to come up with your own play, you come up with your own speech, your ability to present something. You know, it may give you a framework to do that, which you don't have because there are x number of students on the board somewhere they can get those things across. And I think that there's sort of a broader context about how you can then seize your opportunities and just express yourself and get your point across in a way that's already embedded in the school, hopefully, but maybe not in the traditional sense of now we've got a leadership meeting and I'm going to tell you that the children think that
Lindsay: Oh my gosh, that's so brilliant. It makes me think of, there's a one student voice study that I included in the literature review of my dissertation that I was just fascinated by, which it was high school students. But I think it could work for anyone where they were actually an after school club. I don't think it was part of the daily curriculum, but they were in drama and they created their own play around experiences of being part of the L. G. B. T. Q. Community and then they facilitated a discussion with community members, family staff as students afterwards.

00:32:13
Like, okay, well how did this part of the play make you feel and like let's talk about this connected to policy in our school and that was I had totally forgotten about that study for years until you just said that. And so that just makes me think, yes, there's so much potential and there are people doing it and using art in that way already. And so I think that is so cool. I hope someone listen to this episode and takes that idea and run with it and lets us know how it goes.
And so you also you mentioned I was on your podcast, Education on Fire. You host a wonderful podcast. People should check it out. I'm curious to know having all of the guests on that you've had, what have you learned from from hosting that podcast. Are there any stories or ideas that have stuck with you in being a host?
Mark: Yeah. I mean there are a few things. I think the one thing that comes across most is the fact that everyone talks about the personal connection. So it was this teacher that made me feel like this. It was this teacher that gave me this opportunity. It was this teacher that opened my eyes to something. No one's ever said, I remember how to do the five times table now because of X.

00:33:19
And there might have been a fantastic thing and the nine times table. We all know you can use your knuckles and all that kind of thing. But it's all about the emotion. It's about the feeling, the being seen, the understanding of the relationship. And I think that comes across a lot in terms of that's the most important thing, because that's what we're all about. We're all humans, it's about the community and the environment.
But one particular guest that always I go back to Vondale Singleton was on, and you know, we're talking about equity and the idea of everyone having an opportunity. I'll do it backwards. So he is, I think he's got a Masters. He is the person who created something called Champs, which is a male mentoring organization in Chicago. He's helping so many people. It's just inspirational, absolutely inspirational But more so, when he talked about how it all started, he had a mother who died from drugs from cocaine and crack cocaine.

00:34:27
I think his father was in prison through his high school years. He was part of the Ida B. Wells Housing Project. I think it's a very tough situation to be and I think he was surrounded by very difficult people in a difficult situation. When he tells the story, it's very much almost like a very desolate movie script. You know, you can kind of sort of see, how do you survive that. But more importantly, how do you get to be the person that's just inspiring so many people in the world. And it's that kind of thing. No matter where you start from, that isn't where you're going to end up. You have that choice.
So with no support and parents that obviously really were struggling in their life and unable to help him through his school, he had a mentor and this mentor showed him the opportunities, got him to chat, gave him the opportunities within the school, open desires to what was possible.

00:35:29
And you know, he obviously, he studied hard and he worked and he kind of created those opportunities for himself. But he pins it all on this one person. And the thing that struck me was he went to his mentor and said, I can't thank you enough, you know, what is it that I can do to pay you? How can I help? What can I, how can I respond and just do that and pay you back? And the answer was, do for someone else like I've done for you. Basically just pay it forward. And then all of a sudden, it all kind of makes sense. You know, it's that kind of, I can use everything I've learned, whether it's good, bad or indifferent. I can help someone else. I can use what I've learned and my skills and that will look different for me than it will look for you or somebody else. But it's all equitable in as much as we can all decide to do that based on what it is that we want to do, and he was the person who went out and created this most amazing opportunity. And it's helping, you know, so many young people in Chicago, just to understand all the sorts of things that we've been talking about today.

00:36:36
You know, he's not teaching them necessarily how to read and write. He is teaching them how to be, you know, good citizens, to understand how they can help other people, how they can support themselves, how they can create a life that they want to do and live in the best kind of way. And I just find that that's so inspiring, you know, that's not kind of not equitable inasmuch as, you know, we can all start here and we can finish there and it needs to look like this. It's equitable, because if you understand, I think the majority of what we've talked about today, you can then take the personalization of that and take it in whichever journey you happen to be, because, you know, it's not a situation where you have to have this experience or that experience or or anything like that. It's about taking it on board and showing how you can move it forward, and that's what I love about doing the podcast, is that hopefully, and like you, you expressed before, people hear these stories and understand these things and think I never thought that was possible, but somebody has done it. So I've heard someone do it and it might be that you can change that tomorrow in your classroom, or it might be that it's a conversation you can have with someone in the staff room and say, just have a listen to this, or just, you know, think about this, can we put this into place and it might be five years, 10 years down the line before it comes to fruition, but it's making that change, it's making a difference and that's the best thing you can possibly do.

00:37:56
Lindsay: I love that. I think that's a huge piece of, I always say, like, think big or dream big and we start with that dream question at the start of each podcast because we have to know what is possible. We have to dream up something that is possible that may not be in existence right now. And I think podcasts are a beautiful way, particularly how you do your podcast centered on stories centered on the personal experiences of folks who are in education, because that's what grabs people by the heart and that's what gives people that possibility and that imagination. And so I absolutely love that, that you're doing that podcast and everyone should go check that podcast out. Subscribe to it. It's amazing. As we kind of start to wrap up the episode, I'm curious to know what's one thing you would encourage listeners to do once they turn off the podcast, they're going about their day, something that enables them to really live in alignment with these values of justice and equity, the things that we've been talking about today.
Mark: I think it's a really great question and I was thinking about it before, Lindsay. And I just think the one thing I would suggest and it makes a big difference, but it's a small thing : ask someone a question to get an answer about their life that you didn't know.

00:39:08
And then that opens up a conversation. It gives you an insight into their world that you didn't know existed before. It gives you a frame of reference and an understanding and without knowing where that will go in that kind of fearless way. I I don't know where that is, but it will completely: 1) Give you that emotional connection, and it will just open up a door somewhere that will help somebody in a way that you never thought was possible.
Lindsay: That is so powerful. I'm also thinking about just the notion of curiosity which I think is really tied to justice conversations and having conversations about justice that aren't polarizing, that don't shut people down. It is just being curious and what a wonderful way to just manifest that and actually just practice curiosity by just asking people questions. This is brilliant. I love it and such an easy thing to do.
Mark: Absolutely. And I think that's a really great point you made there is the fact that, you know, we talk about system change. We talk about these massive things and I think it all usually comes back to the moment as we spoke about before, but more importantly about you know, the here and now, what can we do now?

00:40:14
That one question, that one one piece of advice, or often just to look, just that kind of: Yeah, I know where you are today, I've got you. But that comes from having those conversations and those questions before. So yeah, it's a small thing, but I think like you say, can be really important.
Lindsay: Awesome, and this is just a question that I usually ask for fun. What is something that you have been learning about lately? And I asked that just because I think everyone on the podcast is really a lifelong learner and going about, you know, not only teaching and educating in that sense, but really educating ourselves and learning. So what's one thing you've been learning about?
Mark: So certainly one of the things I've been reading actually is a book by Margaret Rooke and it's called You Can Change the World. And in that she interviews, I think it's 50 teenagers. And it's basically people who are showing up doing amazing things, sharing their stories from amazingly different circumstances, some of them quite difficult circumstances, but really changing their world and in turn inspiring others.


00:41:21
And the thing I love about it the most is it changes the narrative about what society and maybe the media perceive is what teenagers are about and what they do. You know, these are young people who are literally inspirational as teenagers. This is what I'm going to do when I'm 20, 30, having been to college, university. This is what they're doing now as teenagers. You know, some of it very personal, some of it very practical, but really just that kind of, it just fills you with, it's a lens again. It's that kind of, this is what teenagers can do and are doing. So let's see what those teenagers are doing in your life or my life and see if we can encourage that.
Lindsay: So cool, and I think about how you were talking about the "I" in "FIRE", you know, inspiring and being really excited about sharing stories like athletes and things like that, that is such a great content. If someone was like, oh I want to go do that, I want to inspire people. Like grab that book, open it up, you know, give it to kids, give excerpts to kids and really let them dream up. You know, whether it's for class, like this is a project that I want to do, and I know it's possible because I read about this in this book, or for life right now, like outside of the classroom and being an agent of change.

00:42:37
So I love, like concrete recommendations like that, that you can go ahead and use right away. So amazing.
And finally where can listeners learn more about you or connect with you online.
Mark: Yes. So as you mentioned, educationonfire.com is my world online and what I've done because I think what you're doing is so important and so helpful for so many people. Part of my job is the National Association for Primary Education Vice Chair as you mentioned, Is they provide a professional journal three times a year. And a recent issue was about equity and diversity and a whole range of things like that. So what I've done is I've created a page which gives you a link to be able to read that journal online free. And also I did a couple of follow up podcasts for NAPE as well, which are, I'll copy them into that page. So you've got it all there in one go. So if you go to educationonfire.com/timeforteachership, then we'll make sure that all of that is there for you just to have a look at and hopefully will give you a little bit of extra inspiration and support.

00:43:41
Lindsay: That is amazing. Mark Taylor thank you so much for doing that and for being on the podcast today. This is a wonderful conversation
Mark: Lindsay, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Lindsay: Thanks for listening, amazing. educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time, leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Mark can be found on his website.
​​

​Lindsay Lyons: I am super excited for this bonus episode where you get to listen to Lori Doll. Lori was born and raised in the Reno Tahoe area of Nevada, a place she will always call home. She graduated with a bachelor's in education (history) from the University of Nevada, Reno in 1987. She taught in northern Nevada for 13 years and she had a wide variety of experiences including technical schools, adult education, as both large, suburban and small rural high schools. In 2010. Her family relocated to Connecticut and she earned her master's in education technology from Central Connecticut State University where she was awarded a fellowship in the Educational Leadership Policy and Instructional Technology Department. But knowing her joy came from teaching adolescents, she went back to teaching middle and high school. And so she's currently teaching history at Bloomfield High School in Bloomfield, Connecticut. Lori was a student in my Work Less Teach More course. She has revolutionized her sustainable teaching practice and work-life balance and I can't wait for you to hear what her experience has been like in radically transforming that work life, particularly amidst a pandemic.

00:01:05
She also has created an amazing resource for you all around how she prioritizes her To-Do list, which we'll include in a link to the show notes and on our blog post/transcript for this episode. Get excited to listen to Lori Doll.
[upbeat violin music]
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive, I'm a former teacher leader-turned instructional coach, educational consultant, and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
[upbeat violin music]
Lindsay Lyons: Lori Doll.

00:02:14
Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Lori Doll: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited that you're here and I'm so excited for our conversation and before we kind of jump into it, I just read your professional bio and so I'm wondering if there's anything else that you want to add to that or anything you think, you know, listeners should know as they kind of jump into this episode.
Lori Doll: So I have a variety of experience in education, but I must say that my favorite place to be is in the classroom, whether it's high school or middle school. So out of all the other experiences, this is... this is where I want to be and I actually left the collegiate level to come back here, because it makes me the happiest.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. So one of the things that I always like to start the podcast episodes with is just this idea of Freedom Dreaming and Dr. Bettina Love talks about it as "Dreams grounded in the critique of injustice". And I think this just really situates all of the different work that we do as educators, and so I'm curious to know as we kind of get into this episode, what is that big dream that you hold for the field of education broadly? For educators?

00:03:19
You know, however you interpret that question.
Lori Doll: I think that I really would like to see more creativity and imagination come into our classrooms. I think that the way that american education has been going, we are so focused on the academic skills and test scores and that's all well and good because our kids need that. But I feel like in my years of being in the classroom that this generation has really stopped being imaginative. And I think it's several reasons why I think this overuse of technology, they don't have to imagine things because it's right there in front of them, but I also think it's that we have really taken out some of that creativity of just having fun in the classroom. Every, every activity has to be connected with the standard and it's not about just, you know, let's just enjoy learning today or enjoy each other's company today. And because of that, I think that we've stifled the creativity and because everything is linked to a standard, I think sometimes kids are afraid to try because they're afraid if they have the wrong answer or what they're going for is not exactly right, that perfectionism, they stop, they stifle themselves, they just stop.

00:04:41
And then with the technology again, I think they just don't have that quiet time that we need to focus to be creative. Sometimes we just need to sit in that quiet and take a few deep breaths and really think and contemplate and reflect. And I would like to see education get back to that, not just for our students, but for our teachers too, because I think teachers are becoming stifled as well. And we're losing the creativity and the love of learning that we carry to our students. You know, because if we're bored with our lesson plan, of course, the students are gonna be bored with our lesson plan. Like I, I don't want to have the classroom like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm teaching this. I'm so bored". I don't want that in my classroom. I really do feel I want to bring creativity and imagination, and of course you can have academic skills go along with that. And I think by pulling out opportunities from our campuses and separating into magnet schools and saying, "Oh, this is the vocational high school".

00:05:47
Well now the kid who wants to do AP classes, where are they going to be able to take a shop class or a cooking class and that's creativeness. That's where we put our math and our science into the application, but they don't have that opportunity. It's all academics or it's all vocational or it's all visual arts or it's..., you know. So I feel like we're really just doing a disservice to our students that way.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, what a great answer. There's so much in that around, like, you know, what education could be as well as thinking from a student perspective and like you said, the educator perspective too, right? We need to take care of our educators and I think we'll talk a lot about that today in our conversation, but I think that's so critically important, this creativity element and just being able to have fun, right? Like you can hit the standards and then you can also have fun and you can have those days where you're in connection like you said. Oh my gosh, I just love everything that you said and I hope listeners rewind and listen to that part again. As you kind of think about this idea of educator wellness and thinking about maintaining that creative spark for educators, I'd love for you to talk about...

00:06:54
so let me back up, rewind, and so talking about the course that I developed, the Work Less Teach More course, that wasn't part for my dream, which is kind of what you're speaking to for educators. Like I want educators to live their lives to the fullest extent, both personally and professionally, to find that creative energy, to not feel burned out. And that's really common now that COVID has hit and so you took this course, you absolutely rocked it. I am just shocked and amazed by all of the amazing things you just kind of took and ran with and so I am so curious if you are willing to kind of go there and have conversation about, you know, what that was like for you? How did you put those concepts into action?
Lori Doll: Sure. So I am a self proclaimed workaholic, and my children who are in high school will say the same thing. They ask about my work ethic and say "Oh my parents work all the time". And we do really. We have this ideal of "This is important work that we're doing." But I let it take over my life and like, before I took your course I worked all the time. And even though I had kids and was taking care of kids, I would leave this-- I would get to the school at 6:30 in the morning and then I wouldn't leave until four or five o'clock at night, and then I would take care of all the activities that my kids were in and take care of my kids and put them to bed, and then I would go and work for another three or four hours.

00:08:25
I was getting like four or five hours of sleep at night. I was incredibly stressed and tired. I worked all the time and I had this mentality that everything had to be perfect. It had to be-- I had to always have something new and I always had to have this-- the perfect stuff and I let this perfectionism kind of take over my life. And I was tired and I was stressed and I wasn't happy teaching. That-- I had returned back into the high school classroom. The district I work at is great, but our curriculum is very prescribed at times and I really didn't like the methods that they wanted us to use. But as a person who's kind of a perfectionist in their job, I got to do what I'm asked to do and I have to do when I'm asked to do it. So I let that kind of... that kind of take over, this perfection takeover. And so, in March of 2020, before lockdown, my husband had a heart attack.

00:09:28
And so, things were so crazy then and I just, I didn't know what I was going to do because we really co-parent and now he's like on the sidelines and I have all this stuff to do and I have to do his stuff. And it was crazy and I was on Facebook like, yes I still had time to scroll through Facebook and I saw your ad for your course and I'm like, "I gotta try something". So you have like a little introduction to the course, I'm like, "Oh my God, I need this. I really need to do this". And so I purchased the course and then we went into lockdown so then everything changed because we were all quarantined. My whole family was at home, working from home, learning from home, teaching from home. And so we were, you know, it was just like overwhelming and then school really took over my life because I was doing everything all the time. I was online all the time helping the kids and the kids wanted to have school like between nine p.m. and 12 p.m. Like that's when they were up, they were sleeping during the day and at first we didn't do Zoom classes or anything like that.

00:10:36
So it was really just all up in the air and like, gosh I really need to get organized. So I started going through your course and like, the first one of the first lessons was your schedule. Like, "Budgeting Your Time" and that just like was a lifesaver, you know. So I set boundaries, this is what I'm teaching, this is when I have family time and it really... it really helped. So and setting priorities in my life. What do I want? What do I want for my classroom? What do I want for my kids? What do I want for my relationships? And by setting priorities and being able to say "No, you know, I can't do that right now". It really set the tone for when I was gonna schedule. And so and then I love research. Like, research is one of my favorite things to do. So I am that teacher that when I go to lesson plan, I go down the rabbit hole, not because I'm getting lost but because I want to dig deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

00:11:37
And so I learned to set a timer. Really setting that timer, sticking to certain sites. Not, you know, and it's not that I can't go there. I bookmark a lot of stuff now, I'll come back to that. We'll look at that later. So that has helped as well to cut down that time. And then the way that you divided time into the 40, 50, 10. It was a huge help because it was like an assessment. I don't need to grade everything, which I didn't always grade everything, but it really helped kind of like pinpoint those key things that I want to assess and with the standards, I would say, okay, we're looking at key detail today. So that is all I'm going to look at in this constructive response is key detail or citing evidence or whatever the standard I'm--, that's all I'm gonna grade, nothing else. Like I'm not going to grade if they had a good topic sentence or anything else, just very focused on what skill we're doing. And by focusing that, grading became controllable and then my favorite is the professional development.

00:12:53
So like, I love learning. Like, I love, love learning. So being able to listen to podcasts and sign up for classes and doing that is great. And although I don't do a lot of it in my prep time, I do--, I have put for my commute time, I do a lot of listening to podcasts and audiobooks and in different things. And it also allows me to kind of decompress for the day, like this is just my time and I get to learn and I get to learn what I want to learn. And so it's been really helpful there and I put that into my practice. I really try to find new things to put into my pedagogy and to really try to just be a great teacher because that's what I-- that's what I am. I want to be a great teacher and I'm getting there. I think I'm okay. The kids like this. I get better every day and that's all I ask of all my students is you just got to get a little better every day and I think that's like the biggest takeaway from me. That there's no guilt, just do what you need to do, get it done when you can, and do the best you can.

00:13:59
So, and the stress level is really gone down, although even through the pandemic and the hybrid teaching last year, which was just nuts. I was able to, you know, kind of keep it together, which really was good for everybody. My kids thought it was really good too.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love, I love the kind of overview of like all the things, all the practices and mindset shifts that you kind of got and put into action. And I love that you're kind of going there now towards this idea of like lowered stress and what that looks like. Could you kind of paint us a picture for like, I know you painted us a picture of what did life look like, you know, a few years back. That, like, exhaustion and like the constant working, sleeping four hours a night, what does it look like today? Like what is your day to day? Either in work or out of work? However you want to answer that question real quick.
Lori Doll: Yeah, so now I still come in the morning between 6:30 and 7 but if I'm having a slow morning, I'm good to get here at 7:10. Like, I don't stress out about it.

00:15:03
It's like, okay, I'm just a little later today. I do like, I wouldn't say I'm a morning person, but I definitely am more productive in the morning, so my prep periods all in the afternoon. So I do like to come a few minutes, half hour earlier to kind of do that, for me, and I'm also able to kind of focus. I do my calendar in the morning and so that really helps me, you know, focus my day. So I set three or four priorities. This is what I want to complete today before I leave. And so it just kind of keeps me focused. I also, at the end of the day I say I'm done with any schoolwork. I still sometimes take school work home, but I say after nine o'clock it's done. The computer shut. I shut down my computer. I don't look at my emails, I don't look at my text messages like I'm done, I'm gonna get ready for bed and I try to be asleep by 11. So it's still pretty late for me. My husband thinks I'm crazy. He goes to bed at eight, so it's like, "11?

00:16:04
Oh my God", but for me, I just need that time and it's my time and I'll crochet. I finished a beautiful afghan for my mother over lockdown and it wasn't because I was sitting at home. It was because I actually budgeted time to do it. So I was able to finish this afghan and I really did budget time. Like I said, I'm gonna work on this for a half hour. I'm gonna work on this for an hour. And I try to do that when I, when I sit down and do my schedule, I usually do it Sunday night or Monday morning and I make this To-Do list and then I schedule my To-Do list. So I don't only, I not only schedule what appointments if I have and, and meetings and things like that. Well, if I have to grade papers, I schedule a time to grade the papers. If I have to, if I want to go out to dinner with my friends. I put that in the schedule. And then it's there and I look at it and I'm like, "Oh, I have to get all this done because over here I have this that I want to do". And I try to get at least 5-10 minutes for myself.

00:17:06
Like if I'm going to crochet, or I'm going to go out with friends, or play games, or just something that's me. And then I always budget time for our family. [inaudible] Sometimes that's difficult with, we kind of have to rearrange things to accommodate their schedules. But we really try to eat as a family every night and come together. And that family time is so important to us. So being able to do that and again, it's just budgeting time. And the stress level of my house is so much better for all of us. And we had to make these lifestyle changes because of my husband's health and we want to be good role models for our kids. Like I don't want my kids to be in jobs and just stress over work all the time. I want them to know what a balanced life is as well.
Lindsay Lyons: Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. I think about like my personal journey to teaching and I started as a kid being like "I will never be a teacher" because I had two teacher parents who would bring home the stress and be like, "I have a ton of work to grade" and all these things and I think "That's what teaching is. I don't want that." And then I realized there's all the good, which is why they stay in the jobs. But sometimes kids don't see that when we take that home, so that's such a good point, I appreciate that.

00:18:17
And as you kind of think about, I know you talked a lot about like some mindset shifts, some specific practices. If there is a person who is currently kind of where you were two years ago, what are the things you would emphasize for them or what would you want them to know in terms of like either what is possible, what can be done, or anything that you haven't said so far that you want to make sure that they kind of come away from this episode knowing.
Lori Doll: That's-- you, you can do this. You have to believe that you can balance your life. And like, my life is not perfect and I'm working at it every day. It's a process. I always tell myself it's a process. You're getting better and there are goals that I want to meet and set. But I want people to know that they can do this, and if you start doing this, and budgeting your time, and really telling yourself you don't have to have everything done at the end of the day, that you can come back to it, reschedule.

00:19:18
that's okay and that-- then take the baby steps. Like, if you feel that you can't leave at three o'clock every day, then just leave 10 minutes earlier than you did yesterday, and then the next day, 10 minutes earlier than the next day. So you-- sometimes you can't do it all at one time. I think for me, it was so transformative because of lockdown. Like, it was like the whole world was changing and everybody was in this like up in the air kind of position, that it was easier for me to just throw everything up in the air and change everything. So, but that's not possible. when we're not in that situation. So little changes. Like, little things. Start making a To-Do list and putting it in your calendar, or start saying, "Okay, I have 90 minutes and 45 is going to be for planning," and set your timer. And go just these little changes and little changes end up to be big changes. Habits that you form just and if you say "I gotta do this" and I don't, don't be guilty, don't kill yourself with guilt.

00:20:30
Just start again. Like, because I think as a perfectionist that I know I still am. Like, it's still, I'm a perfectionist, I want everything to be perfect in my way. Kind of selfish that way. I know that if I let myself feel guilty or try to punish myself for not getting things done, that it's going to be counterproductive. So I have to let that go. I would, I would forgive a student, you know, we're always giving our students second chances. Well, don't be so hard on yourself. Give yourself a second chance. And then find ways to motivate yourself. Like, just find ways to say "This is what I want," and again and believe that you deserve it. You deserve it. Believe in yourself. Believe that your time is a gift. And by setting those priorities, you are giving yourself the gift of time. So it's-- and I think that's important to know that you're worth it. Like, I think sometimes teachers, we are givers and we give, give, give. So, but you're worth it.

00:21:34
You're-- the gift is yours. So you should take it.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. Yes, exactly that. I'm just going to echo that. That is, that is exactly right. And I think there's so much pressure that we as, like you were saying, as givers, we put on ourselves to just be there for everyone else. Our families, our students, our colleagues, our-- just everyone, and we can't show up for those people if we don't like give to ourselves. And so I love that you, you framed that that way, that the guilt too is just kind of like a... I've heard it called like a shame shower also, right? It's just like, I'm so ashamed and like that guilt is not helpful. It's not productive. It's not generative. And I love that that is kind of hopefully a big takeaway for listeners. It's just like, don't get it done. Don't take that guilt with you. It just doesn't get done and we'll come back to it. It's fine.
Lori Doll: Yeah, It's, you know, it's--, we're really--, in my district were really trying to do growth mindset and we have to have a growth mindset for ourselves as well. We have to be able to say it's a process.

00:22:36
And you know, sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't and we just have to really believe that we'll get there.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. And I think one of the things that can feel overwhelming is kind of the big difference between like where I am now and then where I could be or where I want to be and it's sometimes it just feels so overwhelming. Like you were saying with COVID, I'm sure like all of it is so overwhelming because everything is changing, right? And there's so much overwhelm. And in a way, I love that you had a positive frame. Like, in a way that's good because you're like, all right. Let's throw it all out and restart. And in other ways I think some people could get stuck in that overwhelm. So I'm curious to know if someone's kind of listening and like, "Yes, I want this transformation for myself, but I'm stuck kind of in the overwhelmed phase of, I don't know where to just start". Like, what's the first step or what's the most important step that you would say to someone if there's one takeaway they have, that that would be it.
Lori Doll: For me, it was budgeting my time. And making a schedule. So I make my schedule every week.

00:23:38
And so, and I know that if I miss that Sunday night or Monday morning, my week-- I play catch up. I play catch up every single day because I've missed that. And I don't like that. So I try not to do that. Like, that's my motivation. I know what I'm going to feel like on Wednesday. So let's get it done tonight. And so, and to realize you're never going to budget everything. Like, you're never going to get everything in there. So really prioritize. So prioritize and schedule. Those were the two big steps that helped me the most. I am a really productive person. Like I, it wasn't that I wasn't getting things done, I wasn't overwhelmed because I wasn't getting things done. I was overwhelmed with the amount of time I was spending doing things that were not important to me. And so by prioritizing and scheduling, now I'm still busy, like my kids still say I work a lot, but now I am working on the things that are important to me, important to make my students stronger students, important to make my school a stronger school and on the personal side,

00:24:51
my family life, my spiritual life, all of that is what's, you know, important. So that's what I budget for. Budget my time. And so, you know, and I still, like if I want to binge watch something, I just put it on the schedule. it's not like I'm working all the time, but it's just really, so if people feel overwhelmed, make your list of priorities, 3 to 4 things that are really important to you for the week and then schedule. And I say schedule everything. Like, my husband still does it To-Do list. He says, "I don't get through my To-Do list". I'm like "Put it in your calendar". Like, don't just write it on a piece of paper, put it in your calendar and then you say this is what I'm working on this. And you still have phone calls and emails that kind of trip you up. But you can always put that on the calendar too. Like this is my email time. This is my phone call time.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, yes. Put it on the calendar. I love that. That is amazing.

00:25:55
So as you kind of think about or as we kind of move to close, close the episode today, I think this is just a really fun question to think about. It's not really necessarily related to what we're talking about, although it can be, but I just love that everyone who's on the podcast as a guest is a lifelong learner and kind of self described as like being excited about their personal or professional growth. And so I'm just curious about, it could be totally related, unrelated to work or again unrelated to this conversation. What's something that you've been learning about lately?
Lori Doll: So my modern world history class right now is looking at World War I. And I haven't--, this is the first year I've taught modern world history in about 13 years. So it's been a long time since I've taught this class. And so I'm like relearning everything too from the European kind of world perspective I've taught of course World War I in US history. So we're looking at the impacts of war through art and we're looking at two artists.

00:26:59
One is Anna Ladd who created these prosthetic masks for the mutilated faces of war wounded warriors. And so and how this sculptor, she was a sculptor, I was able to create these masks and then we're looking at the impact on their lives. So the kids are looking at not only the mask but like why would they need the mask? And like we were in class and like "These aren't... these aren't so bad, why do they need a mask? Like why, you know, I'm not, this isn't disturbing, this is dull, why would they need this? Why can't they just go around", and I go "Why don't you think it's disturbing?" And so then we got to talk about culture where they're exposed to so much more through the internet and through movies and the people in 1918 weren't and this was just so grotesque to them that they were never exposed to disability like this.

00:28:00
And so that we had a great discussion about, "Do we need to mask disability? And is this something that we have to hide? Do we have to hide our flaws?" So that was just like a great teachable moment that I just loved. And then we're also looking at Kathe Kollwitz who lost her son, a german artist who lost her son in World War I and her reaction and her sketches and etchings that display the loss and the grief and the anger for war widows and mothers and children,
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that is powerful. I am really excited as a former history teacher, I want to like now dive into those artists, more about what they've done. That's amazing in terms of the conversation that's coming out of that and I love that you are so creative in what you're bringing to the class and also how you let the class kind of go where it needs to go. That's really inspiring.
Lori Doll: And again, that was all through art and creativity and bringing in, you know, we didn't have to read a speech and it wasn't political and it wasn't, I mean, we could talk about the politics and bring that in later, but all they did was like, look at this lady's work with Anna Ladd and look at how the men were reacting when they were because they filmed it. There's film of it, so that it's just amazing that we have that archive and then with the work with Kathe Kollwitz,

00:29:34
it's-- it really is, I mean, they're just sketches, but they're so powerful and the kids connect with that because they're human beings. They're little human beings that connect and they have brains. And they can make the connections to the politics and as curriculum wise, you know, with like we need to look at the Treaty of Versailles and we need to look at the boundaries on our map and that's all fun. I mean, I love that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I love looking at maps and I love looking at treaties, but I think to make it-- to find that love and for the kids finding the creative side of it and finding what they connect to, then that will spark their curiosity to say, "Well why would we have this for?" Like, you know, and now that I just said that I made you this unit at the beginning and not the middle, right, and make that the connection to find, why did this happen? So that's-- that is something else that I learned in your class is really reflecting and I've tried to reflect and so yeah, I have [inaudible] write that down.

00:30:38
Lindsay Lyons: That is a brilliant idea. Yeah, definitely write that down. I love that as a creative book. and then I guess the final question, I thank you so much. First of all for sharing so much great information and wisdom throughout this episode. But I think a lot of people are going to be like, okay, I want to learn more. I want to follow what you're doing or I just have questions. If people have questions or want to just kind of connect, where would you recommend they go to be able to do that? So I don't have a huge online presence, which is crazy because my masters is in educational technology. But I, I do have my PLN on Twitter @mrsldoll yeah @mrsldoll. So that's my twitter. And that's really my PLN and I, you know, that's where I go to follow people and get information. And then my email is mrsldoll@gmail.com. So if they have questions. But I put it on my big dreams, you know, find time to create a website and be more online.

00:31:44
Have that presence.
Lindsay Lyons: That is fantastic. And I am so excited for people to connect with you and learn more from you. Thank you so much Lori. This has been a wonderful conversation. I just really appreciate your time and being here on the podcast today with us.
Lori Doll: Well thank you because it's your course that really has changed my life. So you really impacted my life and I appreciate it. Thank you.
Lindsay Lyons: Thank you so much.
[upbeat violin music]
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time, leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Lori can be found on: 

• Twitter: @mrsldoll
• Email: mrsldoll@gmail.com ​

This month, we are diving back into the archives looking at episodes from March of season one. So this was last year 2021. Taking the most popular episodes from our mini planning series and revisiting them because this is relevant information for any year. Any year of your practice, even if you want to re-listen, this is content that folks have said, they have actually gone through my course on this several times and found extreme value in looking at it at different parts throughout the pandemic, different year to year, just having a different planning process, teaching different things, or just needing a refresher on what that content reminded them to do.
So I hope you enjoy, from the archives, our planning series. This is gonna be five episodes in March. It includes how do you spend your time, all of the tips on planning, the beliefs that get in the way, advancing wellness and efficient effective lesson planning. Be sure to listen to them all or if you're just using a refresher, listen to the ones that you think a refresher would be incredibly valuable for you and inspiring for you to paint that picture of what it looks like to take less work home, be more efficient effective and really your best teacher or educator or leader self.
Welcome to our last part, Part six of our mini planning series.

00:01:26
This is episode 23 of the Time for Teachership podcasts and we are talking about lesson planning faster, how to become more efficient and effective with our lesson planning. So it doesn't take up so much time that we don't have time to be well.
Hi, I'm Lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal superintendent instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Before we get into the step by step, I want to first talk about a necessary mindset shift from personal experience.

00:02:43
I know the following to be true. Covering content and the mindset around covering content lowers student engagement and student achievement. I believe the fastest way to actually amplify students engagement and build student's skills and achievement is actually to stop trying to cover the traditional curriculum map that's often overloaded with content and instead creates four justice centered units that enables students to dive deep, explore their skills, make mistakes, revise their work, resubmit, learn from feedback, collaborate, dive into the sub topics and niche topics within what we're doing as a class and really learn deeply.
That's what's engaging to students and what ultimately moves the needle or what I've seen. Move the needle for my students towards massive skill development and ultimately a student achievement. So before doing anything else, the most important shift we can make is to move our lesson planned goal from cramming a bunch of content into one lesson to developing independent learners to enabling students to go deeply into a topic to explore what's interesting to them, to make mistakes, to revise, resubmit and build up their skills.

00:04:04
I found when I use terms like cover content, even if I wasn't speaking those terms out loud, even if I was just thinking them to myself, the way that I planned with that mindset, my students were not retaining what I wanted them to retain anyways.
so it's better to focus on doing less but make sure students were actually learning from it. The things that may have been important to teach years ago, names, dates, they're Google-able now. Students can write any question about any date or any event and find that information immediately on Google. If we see schools as mechanisms for learning what will be valuable to know later in life, the skill of learning how to Google a question, how to ask a question and get an answer is more important than memorizing a bunch of stuff that Google will always have available for them. And that's a big mindset shift from how I was taught. So again, it's more important, students are able to find to analyze to apply new information, then memorize a predetermined list of facts. And once I made that shift, that mindset shift, that was a huge shift in advancing my students learning and definitely an increase in their engagement.

00:05:12
So if you find yourself spending hours making many lessons like I used to or lecture based lessons right? You might ask yourself, how could I teach the same content and have the students practice a different skill than listening and note taking.
For example, when I prepped for lectures, I would read through a textbook, I would make a slide deck. I would create a guided worksheet with like some fill in the blank options for students to write correct answers. To prep a lesson like this. It took about four hours. I was reading full chapters of textbooks and I was trying to condense all of the content, all of the content. I don't want students to miss anything and I would try to cram that all in to a lesson which was difficult. I also felt like I was reducing the rigor of the task itself of reading comprehension. If I would just give them a textbook, I feel like it might even have been easier. But I thought I was helping. If I were to prepare the same length of lessons, lets say it was an hour long lesson previously took four hours. If I were to prep one that was students centered same topic, here's what that would look like and what it eventually looked like when I made this shift it was find a text or maybe a couple of texts, generate one or two really big questions, lofty questions, driving questions that students would answer, and choose a text based protocol from my resource bank.

00:06:28
So I have talked before about the importance of purposeful protocols and developing unit arcs that repeat these purposeful protocols. So students don't have to learn new protocols or new activities. They don't have to learn the step by step process of how to do the learning. They can focus instead on the learning because they already know the protocol because it's repeated every week or every couple of weeks. So I'm gonna choose the text based protocol, I'm going to choose a text and I'm gonna pose one or two big questions for students to answer. Using that text prepping like that. It took 30 minutes. My planning became so much easier when I made that mindset shift and my students were developing text analysis skills. Now of course this is just one way that I could develop a student centered lessons. There are many types not always driven by text, text annotation or text reading.
That's one example, this example of the mindset shift and how it leads to preparing more strategically, more effectively and more efficiently is one that I want you to take away from here. And when we're talking about actually writing out your lesson plan for any given lesson, the secret I want to share is that most of my best lessons actually did not have a formal lesson plan. For the first few years, I taught lesson plans at my school were checked every day, so I was teaching like seven different classes each day and so I have seven completely different lesson plans that were often multiple pages long and I eventually got to a school where that wasn't required.

00:07:49
I understand that some people have to write lesson plans in a format that their administrators require. If you're an administrator, that currently requires something like that. I invite you to keep listening because I think there is such great value in providing maybe some key ideas that need to be present in a lesson plan without having to go through the formalized process typing everything out.
When I felt like I was scripting my lessons, I felt like I was taking away from my time to choose a really effective resource or some other piece of the planning process to be really, really clear here. I planned my best lessons. I just didn't type out a formal lesson plan. My slides usually became my lesson plan. They showed the essential question the activity stems, the protocol steps, the text that we were using the links to all the things. The slides were just kind of way of housed that. We used to joke in the New York city Department of Education that legally you could submit a lesson on a napkin. You just legally have to show you had been thinking strategically about your lesson plan, you thought it through, has some instructional design components.

00:08:53
I don't think you necessarily need to type up that thinking as long as you do the thinking and the thinking in the lesson plans are generating results. We can be more flexible and what that looks like. So I want to talk to you a little bit about what my process looks like and what I recommend to teachers who are trying to streamline their planning process.
The thing I invested my time into was not scripting, was not filling out all of the pieces of the lesson plan template. It was about being really in alignment with my broader core schools. So what I often call outcomes, my course long rubric, which features the outcomes and their definitions of mastery and summit of assessments which assess for those outcomes not typing on my script. To me, an effective lesson plan is one that works for you. So again, this is going to vary for each individual teacher. Each individual teacher has a different way that they plan. But there are some concrete elements that are the same right that have to be present when we're talking about quality, instructional design throughout. Every lesson plan is going to be an outline of your ideas and a check for alignment with your larger unit or core schools, that's the basis from which your lesson actually emerges.

00:10:00
So what would a less dense, more streamlined lesson plan actually look like. Here are the core elements of the lesson that I think serve the needs of both teachers and administrators, who want to make sure the teachers have a structure where they can share and think through concretely pieces of quality instructional design. First, the end goal, we need to be able to name the end goal and again, you don't have to maybe type this all out, but you have to be able to think about and articulate. If asked, what is the end goal? What's the final outcome? So if you know exactly what your students need to do for your Summit of Assessment at the end of the unit, you're good.
What are you working towards that is your end goal. Next you want to have a lesson focus and when I say focus, I mean really narrow it down here, what is the one thing, no more than one thing. One thing you want students to walk away knowing or being able to do. If they didn't have anything else from the lesson. If they didn't get anything else, what is the one thing that you need them to be able to get into do? I would rather have students do one or maybe two things really well, then get exposure to several skills and tons of content but not retain or master any of it. Less is truly more here depth over breadth.

00:11:13
Next I would think about the phase of learning if we think about the lesson in the context of a series of lessons in the context of perhaps a unit we want to ask, is this particular lesson the students first introduction to a new skill or content. Are you giving students more practice with a previously introduced skill in this particular lesson or third option, might students be putting the final touches on a skill or assessing for mastery towards the end of the unit?
Where are we in the phase of learning? What this does by naming this or thinking through this, it helps keep your expectations for student performance in line with the amount of time students have had to work on a skill. I know for myself I definitely used to provide too little time for students to really master skill and I'd often used as an excuse, "But I need to cover my content." I need to cover all the content in the curriculum map that I was handed day one as my rationale. But if students aren't actually getting anything, if they're not building skills, if they're not learning the content and deeply understanding what we're talking about the themes of the course, then it doesn't matter how fast we pace, they're not getting it.

00:12:22
So it's really helpful for me to think about, "Am I enabling students to move through all of the phases of learning and giving them enough time to do so."
It's also just a really good check to ensure that for each skill or a piece of content, if we want to speak numerically we have at least one lesson per phase in the unit or in the course. Perhaps if you have some supporting skills that are only touched on a few times throughout the entire course, we need to have at least one in the course, for each of those skills. For our priority standards, I would say they have to come up the absolute minimum one lesson per phase in each unit. Because those priority standards are coming up again and again, we really need to spiral the skill throughout all of our units throughout the whole course to be able to get them to truly master it.
If you feel here, like you're saying, "I do not have time for this Lindsey, I don't have time to practice this skill or this content understanding with minimally three lessons, one for each phase." Focus on fewer skills and content. Maybe you're trying to do 25 priority standards and you only get eight.

00:13:24
My suggestion is eight. Four to eight priority standards are standards that you can make sure you move through and hit on every single unit, at least one lesson per phase in each unit, focus on fewer skills, focus on fewer content, less is more and depth over breadth. That's going to be the refrain throughout this streamlined planning process.
Now, once we get down to the lesson flow so far, just to recap, we started with the end goal, we've gone to the lesson focus and then we talked about the phase of learning. So this skill or content, how often has it been practiced before? Where are we in the phase of learning as we see this lesson in its larger context of a unit or course. Now we want to talk about specifically the lesson flow or the activities. I think oftentimes we go right there and that's where our instructional design is lacking. That's the whole purpose of a lesson plan. For me it does it have that backwards design quality instructional design piece.
We could design an amazing standalone lesson but it likely won't help us to reach the larger goals unless it's aligned with those larger goals, we have the backwards plan.

00:14:25
So let's talk about the lessons flow, the activities, these are your core protocols, some people call them activities, I call them protocols in line with the EL Educations protocol list. These are your core protocols for the lesson, that's what we're doing here in this section. I encourage you to stick with one main activity for student work time. You can also add in a hook and an assessment activity to kind of bookend the main activity but start with just one. We're really trying to niche down here. We're trying to do less to get more within this section of the plan. You may want to know just one or two key questions that students are answering during each protocol.
So how much time you think each of those protocols or activities will take and what resources that you might need. When you're first planning you might just want to name, I need to get this resource and I suggest planning out the full lesson and then circling back later as a separate activity. We talked earlier in this planning series about the cost of switching tasks, planning the lesson and actually looking up the materials, the resources are two different tasks and we pay a cost mentally when we're trying to switch back and forth.

00:15:32
And so I would keep those separate in this lesson plan. You're doing three things, you are noting the key question students are answering during each protocol. Each protocol may have a different question, depends on your lesson and how you're designing it. How much time you think each activity or protocol will take and also what resources you may need. Those are the three essential pieces of the lesson flow.
So let's say you like to lecture, you may want to start by looking at the amount of time that you're talking during the class and try to reduce that so that you can increase the amount of time that students have to talk or to work. We want them grappling with the content or skills, we want the main protocol to take up a lot of time so that they can really dig deep and if we're talking during the whole lesson, they don't get that time that they need to practice and dig in to make mistakes and to have us be able to help them with those mistakes and work through those mistakes and give them feedback that makes them better learners.
So I found that trying to limit my number of slides actually does help me to lessen my talk time and to really focus actually on one core concept. I try to use just maybe 10 slides per mini lesson and I don't have a lot of stuff on each slide.

00:16:40
Maybe I'm talking for a total of 15 minutes, just over one minute, 1.5 minutes per slide. It's not a hard and fast rule. You can definitely have more than 10 slides for many lessons and you can talk for more than 15 minutes. But I would pick numbers that work for you and I would challenge yourself to stretch a little bit in order to streamline your many lessons, the less time that you're talking, the fewer slides that you have to prepare, it allows you to teach in the moment. It allows you to see what the students are doing in their work time and give them that formative feedback that we know is really, really powerful in moving the needle forward on student learning.
There are more things that could go into your lesson plan than just the ones that we talked about. But the odds are, you're probably already thinking about those things as you plan. They tend to come up just in teachers perfectionism like those are the things that we're thinking about, what worksheet did they have or oh do they have access to this Google doc or you know, whatever it is, if those things don't automatically kind of come up for you, if you're not thinking about them organically, you can definitely type them out. If that helps you plan, you can add them to the lesson plan, but I would encourage you again, we're going for efficiency here to write down just what you need to organize your ideas and ensure that this lesson gets the students where they need to go.
We don't need to spend too much time typing things out unless it's maybe a formal observation or you know, you have guests coming in and they've requested a lesson plan ahead of time, if you type a little bit more there, but really we want to make sure we are backwards planning and outlining the alignment pieces and then just noting again those three key things in the lesson flow, key questions students are answering during each protocol, how much time each protocol is going to take and what resources you may need and then of course you can find and link those after.

00:18:19
The other piece of this is if you do have an administrator or district policy of needing to have a typed up written lesson plan every day. Again I would push back on the requirements and trust teachers to to do that process well again. We have to make sure that the results back that up, but if they are getting results, I would push back on that requirement. But if you do have that, if you're a teacher who is in that situation, what I would encourage you to do is to create and this is I've done this so I can definitely speak from experience here that this has helped me in that specific context, to create lesson plans in whatever template you need to use that are specific to a particular type of lesson that centers a particular protocol.
You're still using these concrete ideas here that we just shared in the streamlined lesson planning and I'll share a template with you as well. So if you do need a template to work off of, you can have that if you don't have one specific to your district. But as you go through those and embed those key ideas, what you can do is for every day, again, if you're using the unit arc where you're repeating protocols.

00:19:20
Okay, every Monday we do Socratic seminar or every Thursday we have wind time or whatever it is. Whatever protocol you're using if you repeat those, you have a lesson plan with that protocol typically with the resources that our students facing for that protocol already ready to go. All you're doing is substituting the key questions that are content specific and key resources. Everything else becomes kind of plug and play. It can stay where it is. You adjust for content but the pedagogy itself or the protocol and the flow of the lesson remains the same. That I find to be a time saver as well.
I told you I would share a freebie with you so I'm going to share the streamlined lesson planning template with you. I created that for you that is at bit.ly/streamlinedLP. The LP because bit.ly links are case sensitive. The LPs capital so bit dot li slash streamlined lower case and then capital L capital P. Also drop that link in the show notes, this takes us to the end of our planning series. We have at six different episodes within the six part planning series.

00:20:26
If you have not listened to them all go back and check them out. We had the first one on how to spend your time. We talked about the 50 40 10 planning time approach. Leaders can use that as well. That bundle includes specific templates for leaders in part two all the tips. We talked about building momentum, habit formation, tips for sustainable scheduling. In part three, we talked about rethinking the underlying beliefs that get in our way of transformation. In part four we talked about clearing the mind and how to do that, how to make our mind clear so that we have more energy and focus and presence as we show up for our students and our colleagues. Part five, we were talking about advancing our personal wellness and the six elements of wellness, not only why for our personal sake, but for our school's sake, that is something that we want to do. And then of course in this one we talked about efficient, effective lesson planning.
If you are thrilled by this planning series and you're like, give me more, I have more for you I have an in depth walkthrough of exactly how I transformed and how I suggest others transform and I have coached others to transform their planning processes.

00:21:32
It is called the work less, teach more courses as an online self paced course. Now open for enrollment at 197 my professional and mental well being is worth way more to me than $200. You can enroll today by going to bit.ly/wltmcourse. Of course I cannot wait to help you achieve heightened wellness, exponentially higher student achievement and overall job satisfaction. If you're a school leader who wants that for your teachers, I have had many teachers enroll in the course because their principles bought it for them and I want to say to all those principles, thank you. This is a great gift for your teachers, true investment and personal development that will last a long time. Right? This is a repeatable system. These structures and processes that I talked about in the course are things that teachers can use again and again on a day to day basis. It opens up their energy and their time commitment to be able to engage in the big transformational changes that we're always trying to push.

00:22:35
You can pilot it for one department or grade team or invest for the whole school. If you as a leader or an instructional coach or a teacher want to chat to see if the course would be a good fit, go ahead and throw me an email. I'm at hello@lindsaybethlyons.com. That is a wrap on our mini planning series next week we'll get back to our regularly scheduled program with a guest. Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it to continue the conversation. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Links from the episode:

• bit.ly/streamlinedLP
  
• bit.ly/wltmcourse

This month, we are diving back into the archives looking at episodes from March of the season one. So this was last year 2021. Taking the most popular episodes from our mini planning series and revisiting them because this is relevant information for any year. Any year of your practice, even if you want to really listen, this is content that folks have said. They have actually gone through my course on this several times and found extreme value in looking at it at different parts throughout the pandemic, different year to year, just having a different planning process, teaching different things, were just needing a refresher on what that content reminded them to do.
So I hope you enjoy from the archives, our planning series. This is gonna be five episodes in March. It includes, how do you spend your time, all of the tips on planning, the beliefs that get in the way, advancing wellness and efficient effective lesson planning.

00:01:02
Be sure to listen to them all or if you're just using a refresher, listen to the ones that you think a refresher would be incredibly valuable for you and inspiring for you to paint that picture of what it looks like to take less work home. Be more efficient, effective and really your best teacher or educator or leader self.
Welcome to episode 22 of the time for teacher ship podcast with the planning series, We are on part five, we're talking today about advancing our personal wellness.
Hi, I'm Lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nursing out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the time for teacher ship podcast.

00:02:19
Let's dive in.
I want to start with why, why do we want to advance our personal wellness? There are so many personal reasons we could name. Of course we want to advance our personal wellness, but it's also good for school culture. And so I want to take a moment to look at the research on flourishing school culture that really centers well being for students and staff. The first thing is that well being is critical for organizational. So school success and student individual success.
Research has found that employee health in all organizations, schools included directly impact the success of organizations. So in the case of schools, student achievement is directly impacted by employee health and well being a principal's sense of well being is related to the well being of students and teachers. And similarly educators report that they flourish when their students flourish.

00:03:25
Teachers are able to see in their classrooms and their relationships with students when the students are doing well, they are doing well. So there's this interconnected nature of well being and flourishing across the school according to the Mayo clinic, the person you report to at work. So your direct boss or supervisor is more important for your health than your family doctor, which is mind blowing, flourishing schools are focused on three big things. They are focused on filling the culture with trust, with hope, with compassion, play, purpose, passion and presence. Schools that are dedicated to the presence of these features in the culture are going to be spaces for well being where all educators, staff, students can thrive.
The second thing is that leaders, so administrators or teacher leaders of flourishing schools are engaged, they are purposeful in their work, They are adventurous, they are brave they're bold, they're also resilience and their collaborative.

00:04:36
Finally, those leaders have a shared leadership mindset, the ability to adapt, right? We talk a lot about adaptive leadership on this podcast. As well as have a high subjective well being themselves. We talked about that in point number one schools that center the well being of all stakeholders. It's intimately connected, the different stakeholder groups and their well being to the organizational well being and to other stakeholders well being. We see that schools that are well, are focused on these pieces passion, purpose presence, trust, hope, compassion, being adventurous, being resilient, being collaborative, having a shared leadership, an adaptive leadership mindset.
These are all key components now schools that have been at the award winning level for having amazing leadership for having school culture that promotes well being for all stakeholders. This is what researchers found that they demonstrated. They fostered nurturing relationships. They made decisions to elevate other's ideas and professional growth. They brought the organization's vision to life.

00:05:41
They built capacity for school stakeholders that were focused specifically on holistic well being. So they improved the ability of each stakeholder teachers, students, families, staff to be well. They built individual capacity for that and collective capacity for that. As leaders, they were approachable, accessible, available, aware, appreciative of others.
So again fostering that culture of well being through how they show up. They also reported high levels of resilience which encompasses a lot of different stuff. They were self aware of what they had and what they needed. The importance of learning and developing and constantly growing to be well and finding purpose and meaning, living into their values and being well themselves. And this was significantly and positively correlated with thriving, with well being, the experience of flow. So Shikh Maha idea of flow. We talked about that earlier in the planning series being fully immersed in the work where time seems to evaporate and we're really focused and just loving what we are doing.

00:06:43
These leaders also reported high levels of grit. So working towards challenges, working through failure and discomfort and that was positively correlated with thriving with well being with resilience. All of these pieces echo things we talked about on the podcast all the time. They echo the pieces of teaching and leading for justice and recognizing that when we teach and lead for justice, when we do what is uncomfortable, when we collaborate, when we lean into our values. When we center the importance of well being for all stakeholders, When we share leadership, then each individual member of the organization as well as the organization as a whole can truly thrive.
Student achievement is through the roof and everyone feels better, they feel like they are fully themselves. Leadership scholar Robert Keegan asks us the following, he says "Imagine so valuing the importance of developing people's capabilities that you design a culture that itself immersive. Lee sweeps every member of the organization into an ongoing developmental journey in the course of working every day."

00:07:54
Imagine making the organization itself and not separate extra benefits the incubator of capability. Imagine if our organizations are schools were incubators of capability and we prioritize wellness. What might that look like? Researchers Mileder and Dimmer talk about four things that you can do to start. So the self work is about learning your own strengths and the strengths of the people you work with. What do you need to develop? What do you need to live into your fullest self, also do the self work of walking the talk. So modeling a life of well being for your colleagues, for the students around you.
In the category of supporting others well being, make sure your organizational environment is reinforcing healthy behaviors, not as some sort of add on program that like we do yoga after school or something, but as part of the fabric of how the school operates, make healthy behaviors and well being intimately connected to the purpose of the school and how it's run.

00:09:02
The final piece they suggest is to foster well being through positive interpersonal communication. Our day to day interactions with other students, with other colleagues, with families. We can foster well being or we can do the opposite. We can harm well being, we can perpetuate oppression. We're fostering well being. We're doing that intentionally through our positive interpersonal, not just communication, but I would add partnership.
The reality is many schools have incredibly high turnover rates. They are feeling the time crunch to improve academic scores and data points very quickly. That's often because that's what we focus on. We focus on those and results, the public data. But what if we instead refocused attention and made time to create space for teachers to grow and learn and be well and model for students the creation of space and time to grow and be well. Schools that don't prioritize well being likely to see high rates of teacher burnout and signs of deteriorating teacher and student well being. When teachers stress

00:10:07
we know affects student success and student well being. It is important to tackle this issue. That's the why behind the strategies that I'm going to share next. Let's look at the National Wellness Institutes kind of dimensions of wellness. Let's break down what wellness really is and then talk about some practices for how we live into wellness. The National Wellness Institute shares six dimensions of wellness and those are physical, social, intellectual, spiritual, emotional and occupational. Their definition of wellness is this follows, they say it is an active process through which people become aware of and make choices toward a more successful existence.
So wellness is existing successfully, this being your full self in the world. And it includes this process of not just becoming aware of yourself and what you need and what you can do to be better, but making choices to be more well. And so I love that this gives us an agency in a system that we exist in that often puts limitations on certain people's wellness.

00:11:21
At the same point, we need to be aware of the larger structures, for example, in a school system, the school culture, the policies, the practices that may impede wellness and we need to push against those to make those more welcoming for wellness practices.
We also need to do that on a national level, state and federal policy, but in terms of individuals, here are the things that I want to break down in terms of how I've thought about them and practical strategies that I've personally used to really improve my own wellness and well being.
So physical well being. When I was teaching in a physical school, I was moving my body all day every day, I was constantly moving around and when I was teaching I was teaching in New York and so at least 30 minutes, maybe more of my commute was walking to and from trains to and from busses. I was moving all day long and so the transition to teaching from home or for me becoming a consultant, many folks are now sitting at desks each day as opposed to being in physical spaces where we're constantly moving. That challenged my physical well being.

00:12:26
I'm not at my best physically or mentally when I sit all day long. And so I've tried to find ways to move my body every day. As a runner. I try to go for a run as often as I can. Sometimes I feel like a goal that is too lofty to run every day, for example, is just not achievable. And so then I stop pursuing that goal. I've heard people saying I'm going to do 21 minutes of whatever activity they wanted to do in the year 2021. And so I said yes, I'm going to move my body. I'm going to walk or run 21 minutes every morning. First thing I do when I get up that way. If I don't get to it later on or I'm not feeling the run, I can always make sure I did something as soon as I woke up and that doesn't always have to be running.
It can just be moving my body, it doesn't have to be walking, it can be moving your arms if you're unable to walk, just moving your body in whatever way feels good for you or feels possible for you. Sometimes during a zoom meeting or zoom class, it's taking a long time. I will stand up and do some bodyweight squats, shake up my limbs for 10 seconds, stretch and try to touch the ceiling, try to touch the floor to try to get up and move my body in the middle of the day just as a quick, maybe 1 to 2 minute break.

00:13:33
And if I'm doing a workshop with educators, we're teaching a class that also gives students and educators the opportunity to see that modeled for them and have that opportunity themselves to take that break in that moment. Let's dive into the next piece. So this is social well being. I am definitely an introvert. And so this is a little bit of a challenge for me. I definitely want to practice self care and kind of recharge my energy in the way that I like to do that, which is often sitting in a corner with a blanket in a book, but I have absolutely enjoyed seeing people in a 1 to 1 space.
I think the larger social setting for me can be a little bit off putting, but the 1 to 1 space connecting deeply within their human being is actually really enjoyable. And so it's been a little bit of of a reworking of my brain to say yes, I am on zoom all day long and yes, I am tired of being on zoom. But if this is how I can connect safely and in a healthy way with people who I haven't seen in a long time that actually is feeding my social wellness and it is something that I can absolutely do.

00:14:36
I also connect with other educators and workshop facilitators when I collaborate with them. So work is a big part of my life and so sometimes there's overlap between these pieces of well being and I can socialize with a co facilitator like a co teacher or a colleague and I can do my work but be social in the process, right? I can be social with my students.
I can connect to them as human beings in my Monday wind time. How I structure my classes, my college class right now meets Mondays and Wednesdays and so I've reserved Monday's has time for students to opt in and have one on one or small group meetings with me.
It speaks to the need to just connect one on one. Last semester, I had a lot of students who just connected for the social purpose of just seeing their teacher and being able to talk. Maybe they didn't even have a question about the project, but they needed that social connection time in a smaller space and that's really important to be able to find whatever it looks like to you. Lift that part of yourself up and give it some life. The next piece is intellectual well being. So I am a very goal oriented person. For the past several years.

00:15:39
I've set a goal for the number of books that I want to read that has often kept me reading more than watching tv, which is just a super easy thing to just sit down and do at the end of the day when my brain is tired. I love the Goodreads app and I use their annual reading challenge to set my goal and then track how I've been reading. I also love reading other people's reviews. I also love podcasts about books "What to read next ", by Anne Bogel is a good one that fellow educator Laura Cruz introduced me to. So thank you Laura.
Having different pieces like this that are kind of embedded into places I already am. So my phone, seeing the Goodreads up any time I open my phone. Like I'm often gravitating to that app versus you know, social media or something else that I think might be actually harmful to my mental well being. At times I have learned a ton in my 100 book challenge for the last few years. That's been really fun to be able to kind of dig into learning about myself as a learner podcasts or another thing on my 21 minute walks or runs in the morning. I will also listen to a lot of podcasts earlier in the planning series, we talked about never having enough time and for folks who feel like that to be the case for themselves, this is a wonderful kind of overlap.

00:16:50
For example, the physical well being merged with the intellectual well being. I can do both of those things and satisfy both of those pieces of my well being at the same time. The finding places of overlap or matching up these practices can be really powerful.
Another example of a matchup that kind of combines, I would say physical social and intellectual and even occupational, which we'll get to shortly is after school, I would run with a colleague shoutout to Nina thank you Nina for being a motivator for me being able to socialize, also talk about work or kind of brainstorm some work ideas if we needed to think about something creatively and also move our bodies and be physically well And I thought that was just a really great opportunity to kind of align all the different things that were important to me in a way that felt really true to what I wanted to do in the moment and what I felt excited to do.
The next piece is spiritual well being broadly is more one sense of purpose or meaning in life according to the National Wellness Institute.

00:17:53
So it's not necessarily religion per se, I am not religious, but I do have a strong sense of purpose. Being able to dig down and determine what our purpose is, what I can offer the world, my community, that can be really powerful in terms of keeping us going, keeping us well, giving us showing up to these spaces and challenging times. Like during a pandemic for example.
I try really hard to dig down into, you know what is that purpose and that purpose is constantly evolving. That's a really interesting thing to sit with and just think for a while, dig into my heart, my head, my soul, right and think about what is it that I'm doing and how am I showing up in a way that I want to show up in the world is aligned to my values my purpose.
Another thing that I often use in class are the values in actions, character strengths. I use those with high school students to identify which value I am strengthening or I should be strengthening right, an area of growth or an area for growth, I should say, or an area of strength.

00:19:01
Using these as kind of points of reflection. If reflection feels like a difficult thing to do, I can hone in on those specific values and say, how did I demonstrate that today? How did I demonstrate courage today? How did I demonstrate connection today? The next piece is emotional well being.
I teach myself to use the same self regulation strategies or mindfulness techniques that I've used with students or invited students to use over the time that I've taught lately, I've been kind of lowering the shoulders Dr. Sri Bridges Patrick, she's really helped me by recommending books and also just having moments of check in time at the start of each meeting. She says, "Go below the neck." I find that just really visual or embodied language to be able to say "Yeah, okay, like let me go below the neck." What is going on in my body in this moment. What am I feeling if I'm having some heightened anxiety lowering those shoulders, kind of bringing them back, taking a deep breath and just feeling what's going on connecting to that emotion. Seeing if I can name that emotion is really key.

00:20:05
I've used the stop, think, breathe app which there is a version for students or youth and there's also a version for adults. I've also experimented with because I work from home, being able to distinguish the work part of the day from the being home and being just a regular person, not at work part of the day with doing some yoga or some light movement paired with some breathing.
I find mindfulness that's rooted in movement like things like yoga to be easier for me because it's really difficult and challenging to shut off my brain. I think that means it's an area for future growth. But for now that works for me, ending the workday with that moment of mental clarity and deep breathing and a little bit of movement helps me to then turn off work and kind of switch into at home mode. Points of transition has been really helpful for me and thinking about how to keep my emotional well being in check. Other things like other pieces of boundaries, like when I check email and how often I respond to requests or emails, how often I have my phone's volume on, which is literally never.

00:21:08
I always have it on silent and I can check it when I can check it. These are also other things that I've realized like certain things spike my anxiety and impede my emotional well being. And so I've had to kind of construct what I've found to be really helpful boundaries to promote that well being. So that's going to look different for everyone and maybe thinking about where you are and then what could be helpful for you would be an exercise that would be valuable.
And finally, as educators occupational well being is also important for us, right? We want to do a good job for students. Of course it can feel challenging, particularly in the last few years, there are so many things shifting and changing and teaching has always been difficult. But I encourage folks to identify one or two ways that you have done an amazing job, a success perhaps that you had with students this week, a lesson that went wonderfully well, an activity within a lesson that went wonderfully well and name that and celebrate that. Focus on those wins because even if they are few and far between, they are incredibly important to sustaining our occupational well being and our sense of self and our joy for the profession.

00:22:19
For me, another piece of that is again merging with intellectual well being, the opportunity to learn and grow and become an even better educator. There are opportunities for me to listen as I listen to podcasts on my walk again, seeing the overlap here we have the physical walking, the intellectual well being of the podcasting and the occupational well being of listening to a podcast while walking that is about education. There are a lot of different ways we can line these up and do one activity or spend 20 minutes on an activity that hits multiple pieces of well being. And so I encourage you to kind of find points of overlap here that work for you and I encourage you to just deeply reflect on each piece of these. I'll just list them out these six dimensions of wellness are physical, social, intellectual, spiritual, emotional and occupational.
Get a sense of where you are you at a one out of 10 on this. How would you rate your well being in this particular area? Take a moment to just sit with that for each of those six areas and then think about an action step.

00:23:26
Maybe that you currently do that you want to keep doing or something that you'd like to add to your daily practice and it doesn't even have to be daily, it could be weekly as well.
Another thing that I've learned from using Emily Areis, life tracker planner is that a monthly wellness goal with three concrete actions that kind of fall underneath it. So in january, my wellness school was to just be really active and just wanted to be active most days of the week. That's where my 21 minutes of walking came in.
I also had another couple specific goals. I was new to the area. I wanted to map out to new runs, pinpointing concrete ways that I can fulfill each month's wellness goal and the reason that I was just successful in January of setting up this is because wellness was my prioritized or highlighted area.
We've talked about highlighting in the previous episodes in this mini series, but highlighting or letting it be the priority some days or some weeks or some months. However, you highlighter prioritized sometimes wellness needs to be the priority to make sure that it gets the attention that it deserves.

00:24:27
Just try to find a rhythm of where that is for you to help you.
I will link in the show notes, the freebie for this week which is a well being tracker. You can also get it at bit.ly/well-beingtracker. One episode left in our planning series which is about lesson planning more efficiently and effectively.
If you have not listened to the others, please go back, start with part one and listen to all six parts of the planning series, because when we plan better we are able to reduce our time spent on things that are not meaningful. They're not moving the needle where we want it to move and we're reducing our chance of being well. This planning series is intimately connected to our wellness and I want you to make sure you have all of the strategies possible there. In the same vein here, if you want to take an in depth walkthrough of how I became well enough to have enough time to get a PhD and run the New York city marathon while teaching full time and designing brand new units for my students. You can check out my self paced online course which is called work less, teach more.

00:25:31
It is now open for enrollment and it is $197. My professional and mental well being was worth way more to me than $200. I would have paid a lot of money to be able to achieve the kind of well being that I got to with just a lot of trial and error.
I want you to be able to skip that trial and error and get right there. So if you'd like to enroll today, you can go to bit.ly/wltmcourse.
If you're a school leader and you want to help your teachers be well, you want them to have the energy and the wellness to be able to show up as their full selves and model for students how to show up as their full selves and transform that school culture into one of flourishing and wellness.
You can absolutely purchase the course for your teachers, purchase it as a pilot program where one department or one grade team takes it on and test it out before going to the whole school or you could just dive right in and get it for the whole school.
If you would like to chat with me, if you're a leader or a teacher or an instructional coach or a professor, go ahead and shoot me an email.

00:26:34
hello@lindsaybethlyons.com and we'll see if the course would be a good fit for you. That's it for part five in the planning series. I will see you in the next installment which is going to be our last piece of the planning series.

Thanks for listening. amazing educators. If you loved this episode you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it to continue the conversation. Until next time, leaders continue to think big, act brave and be your best self.

This month, we are diving back into the archives looking at episodes from March of the season one. So this was last year 2021. Taking the most popular episodes from our mini planning series and revisiting them because this is relevant information for any year. Any year of your practice, even if you want to re-listen, this is content that folks have said they have actually gone through my course on this several times and found extreme value in looking at it at different parts throughout the pandemic, different year to year, just having a different planning process, teaching different things, we're just needing a refresher on what that content reminded them to do. So I hope you enjoy from the archives, our planning series. This is gonna be five episodes in March. It includes: how do you spend your time, all of the tips on planning, the beliefs that get in the way, advancing wellness, and efficient effective lesson planning.

00:01:02
Be sure to listen to them all or if you're just using a refresher, listen to the ones that you think a refresher would be incredibly valuable for you and inspiring for you to paint that picture of what it looks like to take less work home, be more efficient, effective and really your best teacher or educator or leader self.
Welcome to episode 20 of the Time for Teachership podcast. We are in part three of our mini planning series where we're rethinking the beliefs that get in the way. We have these big goals, these big dreams, these big visions for ourselves as educators and just as people in our daily lives, who we want to be in the world. And there are often beliefs that get in the way that prevent us from reaching those goals and being who we want to be.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive.

00:02:12
I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
The question here in this episode is, what are the underlying beliefs that are holding us back from transformation and what do we do about it? So David Bayer, who is a coach for entrepreneurs, talks about our limiting beliefs, the beliefs that we have that actually limit our progress, put us in a state of inner conflict and what that does is it steals our time, our energy and our ability to be fully present in the moment. And we can lose hours of time here each day, years of our life when we add it all up. We talk about productivity, this idea of being productive and this drive to be productive actually decreases so much of our time energy and presence that it is actually the opposite of productivity and there's so much to dig into there. We're just going to be talking a bit today about a couple of core limiting beliefs that I hear a lot and have faced a lot in my life, right?

00:03:41
And thinking about, what is that state of inner conflict? How do we open up that time, energy and presence that we really want to have and really, how do we rewrite these beliefs to make them beliefs that are not limiting and that allow us to have the transformation that we really want. We'll talk more in the next episode of the mini planning series about clearing the mind and this concept of having a clear mind to create more energy, more creativity in our work. But today again we're going to really focus on some of the most common beliefs that I see and struggle with myself,
Belief number one : there is not enough time. Here's the thing : everyone has the same amount of time. We often just overload our plates many times with things that don't need to be there, or things that we haven't really thought through, like does achieving this task actually lead me to the outcome that I want, actually lead me to live the life that I want to have. So if we kind of reframe our mind around that belief that there is enough time, everyone has the same amount of time,

00:04:43
we can't create more time. Instead, it's about how we're choosing to spend our time and the thought processes that underlie that and really digging into it and making more space for ourselves. That is a huge mindset shift that I am still struggling with. But I see the power in it. I have been able to move my mind and channel my ideas around this sense of time, enough to find the amazingness that comes out the other side when we're able to actually believe that there is enough time, it's just how we spend it.
So I often hear this belief actually show up as a response to a couple of things. One, I do a lot of work where I encourage folks to create original curriculum or original units. And I also called for in the 50 40 10 planning bundle that I talked about in the first episode of this mini planning series, talked about investing 40% of our planning time in professional development. And often the response is, there's not enough time for that. And certainly we stack so many things on our place. We have so many things that we are tasked with doing, that often feels like there's not enough time.
But if we reframe it, right? and we think instead about what the opportunity to have really high quality. I'm not talking about a meeting that it has no purpose, but a really truly high quality professional development experience : one on one, instructional coaching, diving into a start to finish online course that that helps us achieve a goal

00:06:08
we've always wanted to get to, listening to a podcast around a problem of practice that we've always had and we've always been challenged by and we just need some new ideas to kind of spark our imagination and take the next step towards action. Those professional development opportunities can really provide us with ultimately, more time, more job satisfaction, more wellness, depending on what it is that we're tuning into for the p.d..
So here's the specific responses that I usually hear from teachers around specifically the p.d. opportunity. Let's look at that one for now and then I'll share with you, kind of, the opportunity cost reframe that I suggest. An opportunity cost is essentially what we're giving up. So what else we could be doing with our time or energy if we weren't spending it here? Where else could we have been spending it? So again, an opportunity cost reframe. Thinking about what we're giving up by not choosing to invest in p.d.. So here is one response that I often get : I can't take time from the grading or lesson planning response. We can think about and there's going to be an episode in this planning series, all about lesson planning.


00:07:13
We talked initially in the first episode of the planning series about grading and where to find opportunities to grade during class to reduce the time outside of class. But once we lessen the time, which is one approach, right? less than the time we spend grading and lesson planning to open up more time for p.d., certainly again, one approach. The other kind of frame or approach to this is if we think about what underlies this statement, right? The idea if I take away time from grading or planning this lesson to learn something new, my kids are going to suffer. My kids aren't going to get their grades in time. My kids aren't going to receive a lesson from me. They're going to get a sub instead. But let's apply an opportunity cost lens here. How can we reframe that initial response? So here are some questions that you might want to try on. What if, so we're imagining here, what if the professional development I spend time on teaches me how to plan efficiently and grade faster and it actually saves me time in the long run. Here's another what if : what if it helps me build engaging learning activities so that students are on task and excited to learn every day.


00:08:22
So then I have fewer phone calls to make home to family or fewer things to write in the narrative feedback that I give students because they got it, they got it and they're ready to move on. Fewer mental point of exhaustion where I'm just concerned that my students aren't loving class and being engaged and I worry about them acting out or disrupting the class. If I can get rid of all that stuff because students are just crushing it in my class because p.d. helped me get there, is it then valuable to go ahead and do that p.d.? What if there's another one? What if it means I would be able to stop taking work home? I am so efficient in my planning time. I've learned through professional development opportunities how to do this. Well, I can stop taking planning home, stop taking grading home and I can stop taking again that mental stress of feeling like I'm not effective or that my students aren't learning or they're not enjoying their time in my class. Would it be worth it then?
Here's another frame or response that I often hear, I can't miss class for p.d..

00:09:27
So again, that idea if teachers are offered a chance to attend maybe a school day p.d. so either they're visiting another school, you're dropping into another school or another teachers kind of zoom room, or you know, you have an opportunity to have a curriculum planning day or a workshop off site. I can tell you the curriculum planning days that I received as a teacher when I finally had that opportunity to do that p.d., Oh my gosh, transformational. It's why I built an entire course, my curriculum bootcamp around having that opportunity to just dig in. I mean it was a game changer for my effectiveness and my students love of my course, anyways.
I often hear teachers say when presented with this opportunity, I can't leave my kids, right? They're going to miss out on learning because they're going to have a sub and that sub's not the same as me. But again, reframe. Would I sacrifice one day of student learning? Let's say they learned absolutely nothing, which is probably not true, right? They'll probably learn something. But let's say they learned absolutely nothing, totally washed. Would I sacrificed?

00:10:28
That is the question I want you to ask. Would I sacrifice all that stuff if it meant that me and my students would be energized and engaged for the rest of the year? Thanks to that p.d.. What if it just increased engagement for one semester? What about if it increased engagement for just one unit, right? What is the opportunity cost? What's the thing that you're willing to give up in order to reach that larger goal, right? What are we missing out on If we say no to a professional development opportunity? What is your opportunity cost? What are you willing to sacrifice? What is it worth to you? What is the thing that you could accomplish by missing just one day of class could drastically improve your life, your student's lives, engagement, achievement, mental well being, all the things. What is it worth to you?
And so I think in thinking through all of these questions it's often a question of, am I choosing the right professional development? Because I would imagine that most folks, myself included, are saying, yeah that's totally worth it. If I could miss one day of class to attend a p.d. that was a game changer, my life is better. My students lives are better.

00:11:32
I'm not bringing stress home. I am working more efficiently and my students are learning more. Families are pumped. I think most people would say yeah I would totally take that trade off in a heartbeat. But it's about making sure that we have the right p.d.. Now if we have the right p.d. and it's finally in front of us and we have that opportunity, do we have the right mindset to be able to take advantage of it and say yes this is it, this is the one.
My biggest growth spurts as I kind of alluded to earlier as a teacher, came from really efficient professional development. Taking the time to say, you know what? I'm going to risk my students missing out on learning today because I have faith that this is going to be a revolutionary approach. I have faith in myself that I can apply it in a way that helps my students don't underestimate the power of investing in your learning. Trust your amazing educator brilliance to be able to apply that learning in a way that really moves the needle for you and for your students. Even if or maybe even especially if it seems like your time where your energy is just stretched too thin to take on

00:12:36
one more thing, I think that's the exact point where we reached down deep and say, what is this underlying limiting belief that is holding me back from achieving transformation in my class in my life? We only have so many hours in the day. So kind of coming back to that limiting belief : there's not enough time, on a broader scale, it really comes down to spending our time in ways that get us the big results and gets us to the life that we ultimately want. And so too often I have found myself ruminating on not having enough time, and that just takes up all of my mental energy, my mindspace, my opportunity to be creative and be in the present moment.
Now let's move on to another belief, and this is when I struggle with possibly more than this first one. I think definitely more than the first one and that is, I am a people pleaser or I have to say yes to everything, as a concrete example of what people pleasing can look like in action. So this belief that I have to say yes to everything, I can't possibly say no to so and so or to anyone. And here's the thing: underlying the nose, saying no feeling like you have the space and the ability to say no, is a huge mindset shift that I am totally still working on. But we have to think about what saying no actually means. Saying no really is an opportunity for you to say yes to other things: yes to things that are just higher up on your priority list at the moment.

00:13:54
Yes to things that are in alignment with your values, your beliefs, how you want to be in the world, what you want to accomplish, maybe even what other people need from you. It does not always have to be selfish, it can be self less to say no to something that enables you to say yes to someone else or something else that benefits someone else, right? So sometimes it's selfish, sometimes it's self less but saying no, enables us to say yes. And that reframe I think is really critical to being able to open up our capacity to say no. So that's something else that you're actually saying yes to when you say no to another opportunity that someone asked you a favor, someone asked you to do, right? When you say no to that something you might be saying yes to is spending time with family, exercising, sleeping. Whatever it is, your noes are making room for the yeses in the areas that matter most to you. So remember, similar to the pd reframe, right? There's always an opportunity cost to saying yes. When you say yes to everything that comes across your plate, you're actually saying no to a lot of other things.


00:14:56
You might not be verbalizing that no to another person and often honestly you're saying no to yourself or maybe your family. You're saying no to other things in your life. It just might not be verbally and it might not be immediate, but we ultimately realize we don't have time to keep stacking and stacking and stacking on our plates. So just remember there's always an opportunity cost to saying yes and you just need to determine, just like me, if the cost is worth it, right? That's the question: is the cost worth it? So for example, if I agree to stay after school, I won't be able to go running today because I was planning to do that after school. Or, if I agree to stay after school, I won't be able to cook dinner with my family or you know, whatever it is. Am I willing to sacrifice? That is the question that should go through our minds.
And to do this, well, to really understand what we're saying yes to by saying no to something else, it brings me to the next point, which is to determine what your priorities are. And your priorities can change from moment to moment, but take time to just identify what are your three priorities right now?

00:16:00
You can write them out, you can think to yourself. What are your three most important things right now in your life. What do you want to spend more time doing? Once you have this list, this list is going to help you to say no to things that don't align to those three priorities on your list. And you can use the list as a litmus test to ask yourself, if saying yes to something, will take away from those priorities, or take away too much from those priorities, then you got to say no.
Another piece of advice here is to write your script to literally plan out. If this is an uncomfortable conversation for you, how am I going to go about having the conversation? What are the literal words I will use to say no? Recognizing that no is a full sentence, and you could just simply say no. You don't need to explain yourself. You can count to ten in your head afterwards if you want to fill the awkward silence. No is a complete sentence.
So with that caveat, if you feel like you need more, you can absolutely follow a script and I've heard different iterations of these scripts.

00:17:06
Here's what I have pulled together from different things I've heard from different folks : "Thank you for asking." "I'm excited about what you're doing." My current priorities are X, Y and Z." "I'm unable to say yes to anything outside of these right now." That's the script. You say no. You thank them and you share excitement for the stuff that they're doing because it sounds probably pretty cool, otherwise you wouldn't even consider to say yes. But you let them know exactly why if you feel, again, like you need to give a reason, you don't have to. They're like, hey, you know, these are the priorities in my life right now doesn't really match up with that. I already committed to X, Y and Z. So I can't make the time for this or else I'd be saying no to these other things.
Most people are going to understand that and not only that you're modeling for them, how they could do that in their lives. They're probably envious of your ability to state so clearly your priorities and have that sense of when you would say no. And so you're actually really helping folks out. I've heard a lot of people say that exact sentiment when they're talking about boundary setting. I got this from someone else who did it and it was really cool when they said no to me because I learned how to say no in a way that still honored the work that I asked them to do and that's what I was doing was really cool and worthwhile, but also honored their own boundaries and showed me how to say no to other people.


00:18:26
There's such gratitude that emerges for people when they get to "no" in that particular way. Trying to create a script or craft language that really feels true to yourself and true to your purpose and who you want to be in the world, that enables you to practice that or have that language at the ready when you are presented with an opportunity or a question or favor whatever that is.
Another thing you could do is, let's say someone is asking you something that you actually see a potential for overlap with one of your priority areas in, you might actually pose an alternative. For example, if someone wants to meet with you, but you have an afternoon walk that you had scheduled and it's a really important part of your wellness goals? You could pose, "Well, I actually have a walk scheduled during that time, but if you don't mind having the meeting for 20, 30 minutes as we walk, come to that walk with me." right? I will have that meeting as we're walking because there's clear overlap there. I can kind of hit both in one stride.
So that's an opportunity for you. Again,

00:19:28
If you don't feel comfortable saying no, maybe that meeting is really important to whatever work you're doing, but that time just doesn't really work, well, here we go : let's pose an alternative. And if they say no to that, then you can still stick to your boundary and say, well, no, that that walk is really important to me. That's one of my priorities is my wellness and my physical well being and I need to move. So if you don't want to go on a walk with me, maybe we talk on the phone while I'm walking or we just find a different time. As we begin doing this work for ourselves, again, you're going to be modeling for those around us. That person you say no to, well maybe start trying out that practice themselves and step by step.
What is amazing about this is you can actually transform your entire workplace culture. You could do this as a leader and be really transparent and modeling that you're going to say this to other people and so teachers can say this back to you. And you can also do this as a teacher and model for colleagues. This is how I'm going to operate. This is what's important to me. This is why I have to say no, I'm going to be totally okay when you share that with me. And if you don't know what your priorities are to be able to say no to me, I invite you to take the time to write them down and think about them.


00:20:36
Another approach here is David Bayer suggests rewriting a limiting belief. If your belief, for example, like mine is often "I can't say no to people", if you rewrite it as an empowering belief, what he calls an empowering belief, and you really use that empowering belief that rewrite the kind of the opposite of the limiting belief, then we allow ourselves that sentence as a way to really check our thinking and our decision making against that belief. So here's a concrete example: for me at this exact moment, I'm really struggling to say no to accepting work that is unpaid, so totally free, like I'm working for free or I'm severely underpaid. So what I have done is I have written the following empowering belief : I will only work when I received the value I am worth or when I can learn more about the needs of the Justice Center, teachers and leaders, I'm excited to work with. So I either have to have the financial compensation that is paying me what I am worth or I'm really deepening my understanding of and the service to the folks that I'm committed to help.

00:21:40
If I can have one of those two, then I will say yes.
What I've done with this belief is I put it on a bright pink post-it note. it goes right above my computer. Every day, multiple times a day, I can read it. And particularly when I'm asked for a favor or to give my time and energy to a new project, another piece of this too is I will not only read it before responding, but I'll take some time and really sit with it. I found recently after I did this, I had to post it up there. I maybe glanced at it really quickly, but I still made a decision that was not in alignment with that empowering belief because I was rushing. Because I was actually multitasking, I was doing something else and I saw the email and I just responded my default response, which was "of course of course I would love to do that" and that's not always the case, right? That's just my default response, operating without my brain actually taking a moment to think, did I actually want to do that? Does it pay me the value that I'm worth in this opportunity? Of course we're going to have these road bumps, we're not going to be perfect in doing this and I'm just share that moment to just be transparent and being able to say, we have to take the time and the mental space to be able to make a thoughtful choice and not just default to yes.

00:22:51
And we have to do the preparation of having our priorities in line, having our empowering and not limiting beliefs on a post-it in our face every day and to be able to have a script ready if that is a difficult thing for us to do, to say no and be able to say why.
I've also seen one way this can manifest is people in their email signatures who have said, you know, due to taking time for my priorities, maybe that's their family, whatever it is, I'm not going to likely respond to this email on a weekend or after five p.m. On a weekday or you know, whatever it is, embedding that culture of I have priorities. I want to live a full life and I want to model that for other people. Email signature is a great way to kind of put that in as well
To kind of wrap up this episode, what are the beliefs getting in the way of you living the life you want to live? I invite you to consider that question. What are the beliefs getting in the way, and how can we take action on those beliefs that limit us? So take a moment to rewrite your limiting belief to an empowering one or as we did at the earlier point in the episode, you know, list out the top three priorities in your life right now and use this list to make decisions for the rest of the week, the rest of the month.

00:24:01
you know, however long it lasts. Your priorities absolutely can change. And actually family areas of Boston, she created a life tracker planner, I think I've mentioned before. I love it because it allows me to highlight a particular priority or focus area each month. So in January, that was my wellness and that was my priority for the month. I needed to achieve my wellness schools. Everything else is important, but this is really taking priority this month. In February for me is work, making sure that my work goals are kind of highlighted. Again, wellness doesn't go away. Other pieces of my life don't go away, but just being able to say this is my priority right now, it can absolutely shift and evolve, but I know what it is, I check in with it daily, weekly, whatever and I can respond and make decisions based on that in alignment with that.
So to help you, I'm going to share some boundary reminder images as this week's freebies, so you can print them, save them on your computer, phone, whatever, to remind you of living into your values. You can grab those at bit.ly/boundaryreminders. I'll also drop that link in the show notes.
And just to remind you, there are more tips coming in the rest of this mini planning series.

00:25:05
So this is the third episode. If you missed any of those, please feel free to go back and listen. Episode one of the mini series was how do you spend your time? We talked about the 50 40 10 planning approach. Episode two was all the tips. We talked about building momentum for behavior change in scheduling tips. Today was rethinking the beliefs that get in the way. The next three are about clearing the mind so that we have more energy. We'll talk a little bit more about essentialism and David Allen's strategy for getting things done. Part five is going to be advancing our personal wellness. So we'll be talking about all the different aspects of wellness and some practical strategies to advance our wellness so we can live full lives. And then part six is going to speak to something that often gets in the way of us having a life outside of work, which is how do I plan lessons quickly and efficiently and effectively. So we're gonna talk about lesson planning faster and some tips to do that.
If you want me to take you on an in depth walkthrough of how I saved a ton of planning time in one year as a teacher, I saved about 700 hours,

00:26:07
I have created a self paced online course for you to achieve the wellness that I have achieved outside of work. It is called the Work Less, Teach More courses and it is now open for enrollment. This of course is $197 and I don't know about you, but my professional and mental well being is worth way more to me than $200. So you can enroll today at bit.ly/wltmcourse. If you're a school leader and you want to help your teachers free up time and energy, all that stuff that they need to tackle those big goals you have for your school, you can absolutely purchase this course for your teachers as either a pilot for one department or grade team or for the whole school. And if you as a teacher or a leader, want to chat to see if the course would be a good fit for you. I am so excited to chat with you one on one. We will set up a free consultation call. Just contact me at hello@lindsaybethlyons.com. Thank you and I will see you on the next mini planning series episode.

Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons, or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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This month, we are diving back into the archives looking at episodes from March of the season one. So this was last year 2021, taking the most popular episodes from our mini planning series and revisiting them because this is relevant information for any year. Any year of your practice, even if you want to relisten, this is content that folks have said : They have actually gone through my course on this several times and found extreme value in looking at it at different parts throughout the pandemic, different year to year, just having a different planning process, teaching different things, we're just needing a refresher on what that content reminded them to do. So I hope you enjoy from the archives, our planning series. This is gonna be five episodes in March. It includes how do you spend your time, all of the tips on planning, the beliefs that get in the way, advancing wellness and efficient effective lesson planning. Be sure to listen to them all.

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Or if you're just using a refresher, listen to the ones that you think a refresher would be incredibly valuable for you and inspiring for you to paint that picture of what it looks like to take less work home, be more efficient, effective and really your best teacher or educator or leader self
in this episode of the Time for Teachership podcast, I'm going to be talking to you about our planning series. This is going to be part two of the planning series, part one you listened to perhaps last week. If you didn't, you can go ahead and listen to that. It was all about how do you spend your time and I talked about my 50 40 10 approach to planning and how that saved me hundreds of hours per year as a teacher. Today I want to share with you all of the various tips that I've been collecting over the years and refining as I read and learn more and do this work on a day to day basis.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities,.

00:02:15
take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in
I want to share kind of a bunch of tips around getting started with the behavior change and I also want to share in the same episode, my day to day work scheduling tips, so how to actually schedule out your day and your work. So let's get started. Behavior change. I have learned that while one step moving towards action is really great and many folks will say that one step is really all you need to get going,

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I recommend starting with three steps. The difference here between one step and three next steps is really that momentum and so I can energetically dive into a new goal on day one, but after day one it's a lot easier to fizzle out. So I can get really excited about a new exercise school, I'm going to go ahead and exercise today. if I don't keep that pattern up in the next few days, it really fizzles out and becomes just this thing that I did on this one day. If we can commit to three stops, one after the other, we build up that momentum, we start to make real progress towards our goal. We start to believe that this is who we are in the world, we are a person who was running every morning or we are a person who does whatever it was that you decided to do and that momentum is going to be critical for working towards real change. So start with three steps, not just one. There are some more tips I have around. This idea of starting with three steps and building up that momentum beyond just "take three steps" and these are going to make it really actionable and ensure that we're going to do that follow through.


00:04:28
So the first piece is to set a deadline. I have found one week to be a really helpful timeframe here for me to complete three steps. That way, if I do go running tomorrow morning, but I forget or I have an injury or something comes up the next morning, I still have some leeway to be able to accomplish those three steps in one week, which is a short enough period of time to feel like, "yes, I'm making rapid momentum." and a long enough period of time to really provide that flexibility to work around the busyness of life and work and all the things that come up.
So I'm less likely to forget and build that momentum quickly. I'm building my confidence. I'm also building in flexibility into the system. I think this is one of the things that I'm learning as I grow and evolve is that rigidity with which I used to set all of my goals and led to a lot of goal accomplishment doesn't really let me live into kind of my values and the way that I would like and to show up in a place that is a flexible and relaxed and adaptive as opposed to really rigid and stressed.

00:05:35
And so I think that combination of flexibility and rigorous goal setting and those three steps after you set the goal really critical to have that balance
Whatever you choose as your deadline, maybe one week is not for you, just make sure that it is soon enough that you won't fall into the trap of, "oh, I'll do it tomorrow," or "I'll do it next week." You can definitely latch onto the momentum of the, I can't remember what it's called in the research, but this new start philosophy, right? So sometimes we do this on a yearly basis. In new year's, we have these new year's resolutions, we say, "okay, well starting on this fresh slate, this new year, I'm going to start." This is also doable in each month, each week. So okay, "Monday I'm going to start Monday. It's a fresh new week. I'm going to become this person that I want to be then." Or each day, right? It's a fresh day. I just woke up, I got a restful night's sleep. Here we go. This is who I'm going to be today and the next day and the next day. So latch onto that fresh start. That's what it's called : Fresh start effect. Latch onto that fresh start effect wherever you can and just make sure that again, you're not falling into that trap of putting it off tomorrow.

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Pick a date, started three actions in one week.
The other piece to make sure that we're really gaining traction here is to make the actions doable. So the first few steps should be actions that take about 2-5 minutes. So for example, my current desired habit is to practice Duolingo every day. I really want to become fluent in Spanish. I'm gonna start with Spanish and hope to get to multiple languages over time. But I want to practice at least every week night. So that's another piece to flexibility. I want to make sure that I'm practicing every weeknight, so five days a week, I get that practice in and I can complete a lesson in a manageable amount of time and just maybe two minutes, five minutes, right? And still continue my daily streak. Build that momentum in a way that doesn't take up hours of my life. And I can certainly, and have certainly practiced for 30, 40 minutes, If I'm really on a roll, that's great, that's exciting. But I don't want to hold myself to that standard because then it feels really unmanageable and that's where we kind of lead ourselves into inaction because it just feels so big and so lofty. So make it doable, always feel free to go beyond that, but just make it doable to start
Writing out your plan is also really big.

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So one of the things that I used to do in trying to make my plans manageable and build momentum is to write down two big things every day that I wanted to accomplish in that day, and I would really focus my time and energy on completing those tasks. I still definitely do that. But the practice and the question that I'm asking that underlies that practice has shifted a bit. So now it feels a bit more powerful to me to tie in each of those goals to a larger goal or vision for myself. If I'm working on a larger project, I might frame each day's task as which life changing project am I working towards today or which vision or goal am I working towards today? And what's the biggest thing that's going to really move the needle on that goal? That's going to fill my day with a lot more purpose than check the box, list of tasks. Even if it is only two tasks, that idea of connecting to purpose and larger vision is going to be really helpful in making sure that we really see those things as priorities and when it comes down to it, and we're at the end of the day and we have an hour left in our work day because we want to set clear parameters around our time,

00:09:00
so we're not working 80 hour work weeks, right? Like many of us do in education. We want to make sure that our purpose and our why and our driver are concrete vision that we have for ourselves in our lives is going to be the motivator to get that done
Relatedly, I think the final tip in this section here is to connect those steps to your identity. James Clear, who writes about habits, talks about linking our habits to our identities as a way to ensure that we follow through on our goals. And so he talks about for him, conducting a yearly integrity report, which really involves him asking, "what are the core values that drive my life and my work?" "How am I living and working with integrity right now and how can I set a higher standard in the future?" And so what he says about this work is that it helps him quote, "revisit my desired identity and consider how my habits are helping me become the type of person I wish to be.


00:10:03
We're more likely to continuously take action toward a goal if we see the work in each of the steps in that work as really critical to living out our desired identity and being our best self. Just to recap. When we're thinking about getting started with behavior change, we're building that momentum towards this big transformational chef. We want to start with three steps, not just one. We want to set a deadline for achieving those first three steps likely within a week. That flexibility is there, but also we have a time so it's time bound. We won't forget about it. We won't put it off till next week or next year. We want to make the actions doable 2-5 minutes per action. Of course we can go beyond that, but we want to write, limit that scope to make it feel doable. Write out the plan. I would even suggest and this is something I'll talk about later in the planning series, putting it on the calendar right? Write out your plan. What are you going to do today to live into that plan to live into that goal? Make it a priority. And finally connect these steps to your identity.


00:11:06
Make sure you have that deeper "why", that vision for your life and who you want to be in the world, and have that connect to your day to day actions. That will make it more likely you're going to go ahead and follow through.
Now, let's talk a little bit about day to day work life and scheduling tips. So how do we effectively schedule our day to day work lives? In the education world, this may not make a ton of sense in terms of where your classes scheduled, although I will say as a person who's scheduled classes for our school, I think it is important to give flexibility and teacher choice wherever possible in terms of creating, you know, your class schedule for the year. However, I recognize that sometimes, you know, you can't change when you're teaching a class, but you can have control over your planning time to an extent and what you do independently outside of teaching in front of students. And for leaders and other folks in the education space who are not always in front of classrooms, that planning space, that day to day, not being in front of students, opens up a lot of possibilities as well for how you schedule your time.


00:12:14
So, here's the first tip that I would suggest. Set boundaries. Whether we are working from home, working in school, working in hybrid settings, wherever we are in this moment, we are likely working more than 40 hours a week. We are likely working many more hours than we are officially working on paper. And for me, I used to work long days during the week and then double digit hour days on the weekends. I realized that was not who I wanted to be in the world and I needed to find a better way to figure out how to do that. It was a challenge. And I actually have a full course built out around this transformation because it's so important to me to share how that works for teachers and how that is absolutely possible. But for now I tried to set the boundaries around eight hour workdays, no more than working eight hours a week and not working on weekends. Of course, I'm actually just coming off a weekend where I worked both weekend, today's, for several hours each day, but that was probably the first time in months that I had to do that perhaps even in a year, although that's maybe an ambitious statement.


00:13:21
So setting those boundaries, what does it look like to you? To you it might be a different set of numbers. It might mean, yes, I do work on the weekends, but I, you know, make sure I stop at four p.m. every day during the work week. Whatever that looks like for you, I want you to set some boundaries and really choose boundaries that work for you, that makes sense to you, that you think it's viable to stick to. So set your boundaries first.
The next step for scheduling is making sure you're scheduling in alignment with your energy. So for me, I am more creative, more energetic, more alert and more focused in the mornings. And so when my energy is fresh, I want to make sure that I tackle those creation-based tasks. If I'm writing a book chapter, if I'm creating podcast content or writing a blog to pitch on another platform, those are the creation-based tasks that I really want to center my work on in the morning.
In the afternoon, I might do some more either menial tasks like email or logistical pieces that are just kind of quick tasks, or I will maybe do a workshop or meet with someone one on one because I am fueled by the energy of the other people in the space,

00:14:35
and so that keeps me really alert and fresh. It's hard to keep myself there in the afternoons when I'm just by myself. So schedule in alignment with wherever your energy is. Your energy may not be aligned with, you know, when I have energy in a given day, but making sure you're thoughtful about where your energy lies and what tasks are kind of in alignment with that at different points in the day. This is also something I think to think about students and how they are. A lot of our older students are adolescents are really more focused and alert later in the day. Our younger students are more alert and focused earlier in the day. So what does that mean for them in terms of how they show up to your class whenever your class is scheduled, right? And when we asked students to think about completing homework where different things like this, a lot of these things that we're talking about today as adults and educators, this is also really relevant for learners and our students and our youth. So schedule an alignment with your energy.
The next tip I would give is to batch your work. Batching is actually what I'm doing right now. I am recording episodes two through five of that many planning series, sorry, two through six all day today, that's my goal.

00:15:44
I have one workshop in the afternoon and the rest of my time is unscheduled. And so that is the big thing that I'm doing today. I'm batching it so that I can't be in that zone. I can make sure that I remember what I said in the previous episode so that there is flow, I don't have to be distracted by email because I'm not looking at it until I'm done with this task, and I can really just dig right in and do some concentrated work on this. When you get into the zone or what texting behind calls "flow", you're in a flow state. Right time kind of passes. We've all been in those states and various points of our lives, but you kind of don't notice time passing, like, "what, it's lunch already? Wow, that's nuts." You know, I just got started. That is where you want to be for productivity goals and that is what I find a lot when I can batch my work and not have to pay the cost of kind of switching tasks or switching mindsets around the different work that comes up.
When I was teaching, I would actually try to choose a schedule where I was not teaching for back to back class periods, or for a couple of years, I would try to put all of my classes, because my classes only met four times a week, all of my classes on Monday through Thursday and sometimes I wouldn't even have a break Monday through Thursday. But then Friday I would have maybe four hours of concentrated just prep time.

00:17:05
And so I took all of my prep periods from the whole week and just stacked them and I got so much done because I would just hide myself in my room with my headphones, or you know, in a hallway, somewhere where someone couldn't find me and I would just get a ton of lesson planning, grading all that stuff done. So whatever that looks like for you, knowing that we often restart when we're interrupted by either ourselves or someone coming up to us or an email to do an unrelated task, we want to really make sure that we can get in the zone and stay in the zone so that we can be as productive as we can. We don't have to pay that switching costs later on
My 4th tip here around scheduling is to take breaks, to get up, to move. I struggle with this and I used to rarely get up and move from my desk for lunch time and I was teaching. I think this is really important to stand, to stretch, to just get the body moving. Even if it's for 25 seconds just to stand, you know, midway through a zoom meeting and say, I just need to take a stretch break, you can put that in the chat, you know, you could stand whatever and building it into your lessons as well for students,

00:18:07
right? Sometimes we have students that just need to get up and move around and of course they do. They are typically sitting for six or more hours a day. Emily Aries, the host of the Boston Podcast, actually did an episode a while back when we first kind of shifted to a lot of Zoom meetings and she shared that experts actually recommend breaks of 15 minutes, about 10-15 minutes for every two hours of work. So sometimes that works for me, sometimes I'm really in the zone for about four hours and I don't even think of a break because I am not willing to break that flow state that I just spoke about earlier and that's okay to just finding some time that works for you. Maybe that means 20 or 30 minute break every four hours, whatever it is, just make sure you're able to kind of step away from the screen or from whatever it is that you're doing and just make sure that we are able to schedule either a midday walk break or a mid day stretch break or kind of move out of work mode and let our brains kind of clear and relax for a little bit. That is again a struggle for me, but absolutely one that I want to try to do more so that I can fully live into the values of wellness and mental well being that I want to bring to the table and also model for my colleagues and for students.


00:19:22
And my final tip here, tip number five for scheduling, is to put things on the calendar. So let's imagine as I'm sure we've all been in this scenario, you're staring at a long to do list and it feels hopeless to get it all done right. It's an incredibly long list and a colleague emails you or stops by your office or your room and asks you to do something for them. And you say yes because, what's one more thing on your super long to do list? You're never going to get to it anyways, right? And later you read an article about something really cool you want to do in your class or maybe, you know, and even an article about self care, or you're listening to this podcast and you're saying I want to add something else to this list. The to do list will continue growing, will continue to consume your life, and very few of those things get done and there is a lot of research on this. I'm actually going to be talking about this later in the planning series as well : What different productivity experts and different folks say about, you know, what to do with a very long to do list and how to actually make it productive and not overwhelming.


00:20:25
But here is kind of my one key gem that I think I keep returning to and have found incredible value in. I put my to do list on my calendar. So I eliminate the fact that it's even a list at all. But it's even a separate thing separate from my day to day activities on my calendar, I schedule it as if it were a meeting. They're actually events. These to-dos are actually going in as events on my calendar. And so what that requires is estimating the amount of time it will take to complete the task and then adding that amount of time as if it were, for example, a two hour meeting into my calendar. And then once the day is filled up, I know I can't do any more tasks on that day, so I need to add it to the next day. And if something comes up that absolutely has to be done today and I have a couple of things that are actually not time sensitive, but I had just blocked them in my calendar for today, I can move those tasks that got ousted from today to open slots later in the week. And you'll notice that I don't delete them unless they actually don't have to be done,

00:21:28
and that's kind of a mindset shift, right? Thinking about, does that actually need to get done? And if not, maybe that just comes off the plate. It's not a really high leverage activity that's going to get me a lot of growth and movement towards my vision. I don't need to do it and maybe it comes off, but I don't lengthen my workday to get them done, at least I try not to do that. Sometimes I break my own rules, but typically I try to just move them further down the week and you'll notice as you move them further down the week, what your priorities are, they'll kind of come to the surface as you have to make that decision about what gets bumped and where does it get bumped and what absolutely needs to be done this week and what can be done next week or a month from now and it would be totally fine because it's kind of this dream project that you have on the back burner and it's not super urgent right now, but it's something you want to return to again.
We'll talk about that later in the planning series. David Allen has a really great system for going through all of these different types of to-dos and things that could be on your list and what to do with them. So I am excited to talk to you more about this.

00:22:29
But putting it on the calendar, I think is one of the best ways to make sure that the things that need to get done fairly recently, today, tomorrow, this week, next week that those actually get done. That has been really critical for me and also with the caveat of not lengthening my day to get them all done, but keeping within those boundaries that we set that we talked about in tip number one.
So let's go back through those five tips for scheduling. One: set our boundaries. Know when we are going to stop the work day and when we have to say no to meetings or other work. Schedule an alignment with your energy. So know when you are most creative, most focused, most ready to batch and scheduled for that. Number three: batch your work, make sure that we are in the flow state and we can stay in there to make sure we're not paying that switching costs of moving between tasks. Tip four: take breaks whenever you can stand stretch, move around, get up, clear the brain. And tip five : put it on the calendar to make sure that it gets done.
There are a ton more tips coming in the rest of this mini planning series. So just to recap, we have spent the last two, this episode and the one before it, talking about how you spend your time in the 50 40 10 planning method in the previous episode. This episode was all the tips, a hodgepodge of different tips of getting started, building momentum around changing behavior and then scheduling on a day to day basis.


00:23:51
Our next episode in the series is going to be about rethinking the beliefs that get in the way. So digging into the underlying beliefs that prohibit us from moving forward. The following episode will be about clearing the mind. We're going to talk a little bit about essentialism which I find really fascinating. I'm just starting to kind of dive into that way of thinking, but making sure that we have a clear mind so we can have high energy and lots of focus.
Part five is going to be about advancing our personal wellness. So we'll talk about some different aspects of wellness from the literature and some practical strategies we can implement to advance our own wellness. And part six, I think that often gets in the way of all this other stuff, of all this good stuff we're working towards, is how do I lesson plan quickly and efficiently. So we have to spend less time in our planning mode.
Also, if you want me to take you on an in depth walkthrough of how I saved 700 hours of planning time in one year as a teacher, my self paced online course Work Less Teach More is now open for enrollment.

00:24:54
The course is 197 and I don't know about you but my professional and mental well being is worth way more to me than $200. You can enroll today at bit B I T dot lee L Y slash W L TM Course, bit.ly/wltmcourse. I'll also drop that link in the show notes. Now, if you're a school leader who's listening and wanting to help your teachers free up the time and the energy to tackle these big transformative projects you got going, you can purchase this course for your teachers as a pilot for one department or grade team or for the whole school. If any of you educators, either teachers, instructional coaches, leaders want to chat and see if the course would be a good fit, go ahead and email me at hello@lindsaybethlyons.com and I can set up a free 20-minute consultation call to chat with you.
Finally our freebie for the week. This is one of the most popular freebies I think I have ever created, is my scheduling template. It is a digital Google Docs scheduling template that you can just make a copy of and move the pieces around. I also included in addition to the blank template, a concrete schedule example of a teacher working from home.

00:26:01
So that is bit.ly/workfromhomeschedule. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of our mini planning series and I will see you in the next episode.

Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

This month, we are diving back into the archives looking at episodes from March of the season one. So this was last year, 2021 taking the most popular episodes from our mini planning series and revisiting them because this is relevant information for any year. Any year of your practice, even if you want to relisten, this is content that folks have said : They have actually gone through my course on this several times and found extreme value in looking at it at different parts throughout the pandemic, different year to year. Just having a different planning process, teaching different things, we're just needing a refresher on what that content reminded them to do. So I hope you enjoy, from the archives, our planning series. This is gonna be five episodes in March. It includes how do you spend your time, all of the tips on planning, the beliefs that get in the way, advancing wellness and efficient effective lesson planning. Be sure to listen to them all.

00:01:04
Or if you're just using a refresher, listen to the ones that you think a refresher would be incredibly valuable for you and inspiring for you to paint that picture of what it looks like to take less work home, be more efficient, effective and really your best teacher or educator or leader self.
How do you spend your planning time? If you're a teacher and if you're an administrator, an instructional coach, leader, how do you spend your time? What's the breakdown? If you could categorize exactly what you're doing and what themes that falls into, what types of activities make up the bulk of your work week? What would it be and how many of those activities are super high leverage? Today we are diving into talking about our planning process. How do we plan, How do we use our time? Are the activities that we are engaging in regularly giving us the big wins that we want and if not how do we shift our planning practice? This is going to be episode one in a mini series, all about strategic planning. So let's dive in.

00:02:10
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about schoolwide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Life as a teacher or instructional leader is challenging and while a lot of p.d. focuses on what we, as teachers can do better regarding curriculum, pedagogy, which it totally should, we often don't have any opportunities to talk about the inner workings of our planning time.


00:03:15
My 2021 word of the year is "strategic" and it stems from knowing I need to be strategic about how I spend my time, if I want to be the best educator I can be. It's like that 80-20 principle : 80% of the things you do generate about 20% of your results, whereas 20% of the things that we do generate 80% of our results. I just have to identify what that 20% is and double down on my time spent there. This strategy that I'll share with you today produced major results for me as a teacher and now I need to apply that as an instructional coach and leader.
This is the first episode in a series of episodes around planning and not just planning, but planning strategically, with purpose, with focus that gives us a lot of results with just a bit less input. We don't have to spend hours and hours and hours getting the results we're getting now if we can shift our ability to plan to be more strategic and focused. And so we'll talk about a lot of pieces to this puzzle but just today we're going to focus on a strategy for inventorying how we currently spend our time and setting a goal for a more strategic use of our time, based on what we aspire to do, based on an analysis of what are those 20% of activities that are getting us the 80% of our results,

00:04:37
and also thinking about the shift from how we currently spend our time.
So our goal breakdown of how we spend that time is going to be based in a shift that's likely substantial if we want to think big, but also manageable from what we're currently doing. So it's difficult to know how many hours of work teachers routinely bring home if we're not constantly talking about this stuff, if we're not having opportunities for teachers to sit in dialogue with one another in a staff meeting, for example whether it be in person or on zoom of course or you know what percentage of our planning time we actually spend on specific activities like grading or lesson planning or researching new lesson resources, which I know is a common concern for a lot of listeners. And I wanted to spell the mystery a bit. So at least for my own planning story I want to share with you on this episode today exactly how I spent my planning time as a teacher when I started teaching, and then after I made this shift and applied the strategy. There was, as you can imagine, a very huge shift from year one to the last several years I taught and I want to share both where I started and where I eventually ended up.


00:05:46
But first I want to talk you through the strategy that I used and today's episode freebie is going to be what I call a 50 40 10 planning bundle and that bundle is about eight pages of documents of kind of synthesized research as well as kind of a step by step checklist as well as planning templates that you could print or use a program like pdf editor like adobe to edit directly. But this is an opportunity for us all I think, to just dive in and just inventory. How are we currently using our time? Where do we get the biggest bang for our buck, so to speak And where can we shift so that we're more intentional in our planning, we spend less time on the things that don't get us the results and more time on the things that do. And this also opens us up to be able to bring our best selves to the work to be able to show up with that full energy because we didn't spend the entire weekend sunup to sundown each day trying to create something or work on something that didn't actually generate the results that we needed.


00:06:47
This is a really big shift that I made and I want to help educators get there as well. When we're thinking about growing and improving our practice and taking on new initiatives or implementing new strategies or shifts in our practice. It can be really difficult if we're not taking something off our plates. if we're constantly adding and adding. We just have an overflowing plate and that's not going to help anyone get anything done. And so this is all about really removing the unnecessary or the things that don't produce as big results as we could be producing in order to get to a place where we're really thinking strategically and making those big powerful high leverage tests. So let's dive in.
What I would like for us to do, kind of a high level overview is think about the buckets that your activities throughout. For example, one week of school, what buckets or categories or themes do the activities that you routinely do fall into? I want you to analyze how you currently spend your time and how many minutes or how many hours do you spend with each of those buckets,

00:07:52
and then do you have kind of an other category? A lot of times we have another category of things that aren't really high leverage. For example, meetings that they don't have a concrete purpose. They're just kind of meetings that you feel like you're not getting a lot out of, or paperworks, completing a lot of paperwork is often something that's found in other columns. So if there's something that feels not very high leverage, you can always throw it into that bucket. And then what we want to do after doing that is we want to cut or reduce those low impact activities and add or maybe revamp our high impact activities to give them even more leverage. A caveat to say everyone's planning time can absolutely look different and I'm going to share with you what my shift was, what my recommendation is, but just know that your ratio, your percentage, your categories can absolutely look different and so these are all open ended questions to think through as we go through this strategy.
So here's the breakdown that I recommend. I call it 50 40 10 because I have identified three different buckets and the ratio of time spent. If we look at the percentage breakdown of our hours in our planning time as a teacher, I found that the best ratio for the highest leverage instruction for me and the biggest results for my kids was 50% planning for quality instruction.

00:09:06
So designing the content, collecting resources, putting together the lessons, whatever that looks like, but I'm planning for quality instruction. Maybe I am adapting or personalizing for different students, creating different pathways. Planning for quality instruction is half of the time that I spent.
The next piece is typically the most shocking, and the biggest departure from what teachers do on a regular basis. And that's 40% of our time being spent on professional development. This doesn't necessarily mean just staff meetings. It could be listening to a podcast on the way to work, or stopping by a colleague's class, again in person or on zoom reading the latest educational research, following an educational blog, following a person on twitter, that's an educational consultant or constantly sharing great educational articles. Any of these pieces could be professional development and I want to just make sure that's a really broad category. But this piece is all about learning, what could I be doing better?


00:10:06
Student feedback is the third category and this is just 10%. And I say this because a lot of times we spend time on entering grades in a grade book and you know, sometimes that's because we have structures set up that we have to comply with. And so this might be a larger conversation around the school with administrators. If you are an administrator listening, thinking about what is that conversation going to look like at your school? Maybe jumping into that and asking teachers about this. I say student feedback explicitly here as opposed to grading. That naming is really intentional because it's not just about grades. In fact, when we look at the research formative feedback or feedback that is qualitative, over slapping a number or a letter grade on it, is actually way more productive in terms of student learning. And so I'm talking about that immediate, in the moment feedback, most of that's going to be during class time. But if not, we're grading a larger project or something and we need to grade outside of class, we're going to provide qualitative feedback. And if we're doing most of it in class, that enables our student feedback that we're working on outside of class during our planning time to take less of our time.


00:11:15
So if we do 90% of our student feedback in the moment in the class and we find ways to do that, whether that's using technology to auto grade really quick content based questions, or jumping into a breakout room, or jumping into have one on one meetings with students wherever possible to say, "hey, this is what I'm seeing here. Why don't we think about this." And just kind of push the thinking in small, small ways that don't need a great attached to them. One of the reasons that I came up with this breakdown as well is looking at the research of John Hattie and the effect sizes of different activities on student learning. When we think about the stuff, it is deeply rooted in the research. When we think about quality instruction, it's because when we deliver quality instruction, we raise student achievement two grade levels in one year. That is the potential there. When we invest in our learning and we have collective teacher efficacy, that is more helpful to student learning than any other activity that was inventoried in Hattie's research.
The professional development is critical.

00:12:21
Being able to be confident in our learning and our knowledge as educators collectively, not just as an individual teacher, but as a school, and then backing that up with the data and seeing that has an improvement on student learning, that's huge. So that's why that's 40%. And again, student feedback. When we look at the different types of feedback rating versus formative in the moment, feedback qualitative versus quantitative, again, we see that formative piece being really powerful and so most of that's happening during class time. When we think about student feedback outside, we can then reduce it to 10% if we're doing most during class.
So again, 50 40 10: 50% planning for quality instruction, 40% professional development of some kind, 10% student feedback. And this could look different. Your categories could look different, your percentages or ratios could look different. But here's what we want to do. First, I want you to take just one week and I want you to track what you're doing during your planning time. So down to the minute, you don't have to track what you're doing during a class. That's a different conversation. You can absolutely do that. And I highly encourage that things like teacher talk time versus student work time or talk time.

00:13:26
I think these are really powerful things to do. But here we're talking about our planning time, non instructional time. And for leaders, if we're not in classrooms, same thing. right? What are we doing all day, all week? So I want you to inventory the minutes that you're spending or the hours that you're spending on each kind of activity. And I want you to try to categorize them into approximately three, maybe four themes. Again, you can use that other category that feels like it's maybe not high leverage, but just things that can't be taken off your plate perhaps? I then want you to identify from that list, your biggest time drain. So the things that are in that other category, are there ways you could do that faster? Could you kind of techify it and make it automated in some way using some technology? Or could you, if you're teaching embedded into your class, if you're a leader or instructional coach, could you delegate it or even take it completely off the plate?
I then want you to identify opportunities for professional development. Again, this could look a lot of different ways but figure out what works for you.

00:14:27
And also try to figure out what are the big goals that you have as an educator, as a leader and what p.d. is going to get you there. So thinking about topic and as I've spoken about before in personalized pd conversations on the podcast, thinking also about format. What's the format that's going to work for you? Is it listening, if you're still commuting, to a podcast on your commute. Or is it merging kind of your well being goals around moving for 21 minutes a day? For example, 21 for 21, I just heard about that. I thought it was a great idea. And could we listen to educational podcasts for that 21 minutes of movement each day? So thinking about ways that don't add things to your plate, but maybe merging them with some other goals so there's overlap.
I want you to then set a weekly time limit for each bucket activity. One of the big things for me was I was taking so long planning each lesson, I had to set a weekly time limit. Once I set my ratio and I divided my total amount of planning time during a week, again this is when I was teaching, I then said, "okay, I have five hours total of planning time each week, 2.5 hours is going to be by 50% which is devoted to planning instruction."

00:15:36
I have 30 minutes each day to be able to develop my lessons for the next day, which was so much shorter. I mean maybe 1/20 of the time that I had been spending previously on planning lessons. So I mean it was drastic and I got there over time. But trying to figure out what that is for you. Once you do the ratio you figure out your categories, you figure out how many hours per week do you want to be spending, not what you are, but what do you want based in some degree on what you are spending now and then make it more ideal. You want to set your goals and so you want to set your time caps for each. And for some professional development, it might not be a time cap that you need to set. For me even still as an instructional coach and educational consultant in that leader role, I find myself not doing enough p.d., and so I know that's something that I need to set as something I need to work up to, not something I need to limit. Whereas other things like paperwork or things in my other categories, I do need to limit and set a cap for.
And then I want you, once you have all this done, you have your categories, you have your ideal ratio and you've converted that into minutes based on how many hours you're working or how much planning time you have, potentially converting it to hours whatever works for you,

00:16:47
I want you to practice for one week and I want you to stick to the set times, and this can be really difficult. when I was setting my 30 minute planning time per lesson or per day of lessons. I had to get really creative. I had to leverage some really low prep strategies that had high impact and I had to make it happen. And sometimes I looked at that clock particularly early on because I would literally set a timer on my phone and I would say, "oh my gosh, I have 10 minutes left." and I feel like I've done nothing. I've spent, you know, these 20 minutes just like Googling a new activity when I know I have some high leverage ones that I already used and I could have had something pretty much done already. And so in the last 10 minutes I would have to do that. I would have to pull from what I knew already worked. Instead of trying to get really creative every day. I would have to locate the key places. I would find really great resources consistently, pull from there, as opposed to just straight up Googling. And I would have to really figure out what's going to work for me. And of course you're going to revise and reflect this as you move forward. So please feel free to share any of your successes, your tips, your strategies, even take a picture of the planning time inventory document which is on this free resource for the week.

00:17:55
I'm going to share with you, and share it with us, share that picture on the time for Teachership community, ask for support.
There's kind of two ways to do this. One is retrospectively. There's one planning document in here that is an inventory for each week. And then another one that's aspirational. At the start of the week, a strategic plan if you will, for the upcoming week where it divides your percentages into your three buckets. It reminds you of your overall vision, your big thinking for the year or the semester, and then it also gives you a place with suggested activities for that opportunity. And you can feel free to make your own. So for example, for planned lessons, my activity bank looked like Socratic seminar, chat stations, student presentations, because those were three go-to activities that I knew if I was planning lessons in a very reduced amount of time, I could use those to pull really, really quickly. I already had a template for those activities in my class and I could use that. Or the learning category, the professional development one. My activity bank looked like podcast, book, blog, visit another class plan or problem solved with a colleague.

00:19:00
Again, just ideas for me to get up to that 40% of my time being about professional development.
For giving feedback, I would sometimes have to reduce the amount of feedback or streamline or automate the feedback I was giving. So my activity bank for that looked like auto graded quizzes, pure feedback protocol, conference during independent work time. And so again, these activity banks are helping us reach our goals for this. If you're a leader, this could look a little different for you. So I, in my template, have for you three buckets : supporting instruction, being 50%,, 40% being build leadership capacity and then 10% being the p.d. you're investing in your growth. For that, I have for an activity bank of supporting instruction, visiting classes, coaching teachers, having those one on one meetings, sharing strategies with teachers that you either looked up, research, or connecting them with educational blogs and podcasts that could consistently provide that p.d. for them later on.
Building leadership capacity could look like inviting teachers to lead p.d. around topics of interest or strength covering teacher classes so that they can go visit other classes in the moment, supporting PLCs.

00:20:07
And then investing in your own growth: podcast, spoken or blog, again, problem solving with other leaders or visiting another school. And if school is doing remote or hybrid learning that could look like just jumping on a call or a staff meeting, sitting in the back of a zoom room even with your your camera off, just being able to observe and see how other folks are doing things in this moment. So for me as a teacher in years one and two, really I spent 20 hours of time outside of the school hours and my process was really work intensive but super low leverage. It wasn't generating the results I needed. And when I looked at my time and how I was spending it, 90% of my time was on lesson planning, 10% of my time was on grading or feedback and 0% of my time was on professional growth. And this is so hard to think about. I feel deeply sad for myself and my students because that was just not at all what I knew would be working and I could see that it wasn't producing results.


00:21:08
And so when I shifted over time and experimented pretty boldly actually with different approaches to planning, I was greatly aided by p.d., either provided by the school or things that I sought out on my own. And I was really excited to tinker with that formula and it ended up saving me. I calculated at about 700 hours per school year, which is monumental. And so it reduced my time spent planning outside of school to just 0-2 hours a week, which is a world of difference. I experienced life incredibly differently. At this point, my process was really finding those high leverage pieces and being able to meet that 50 40 10 piece. What I was able to do with my life outside of school was again, also exciting because it was just a different life I was living. I did things that I had always wanted to do. I was able to run the New York City Marathon at the same time that I was in a full time PhD program, which I finished in three years while full time teaching. I mean, the possibilities are endless. Whatever it is that you want to do, It is possible, but it takes a lot of strategic planning and rethinking how we're currently doing things and what those high leverage pieces are. What's 20% of the work we're doing now that's producing 80% of our results and how do we double down on that?


00:22:23
Just as an educational consultant, I created a time inventory for myself. And what I figured out was I really want a goal of 50% creation, create podcasts, create blogs, create courses and content. 40% is going to be learning for me. And again, that's going to look like some online courses. It's going to look like following blogs and podcasts that I love. And I do have a lot of my learning in my meetings in my facilitation or support role, though there's some overlap between these categories for me, so I might still need to tinker with them a little bit and get clear on what they are and where certain activities fall into which category.
The last piece really is that 10% support. And so if I can enable teachers to use things like online courses where they can tap into the resources I've created whenever they have time, write a blog post or a podcast can be consumed whenever the listener or reader has time, that's probably best for everyone involved. It frees me up to create more things and it enables more people to be able to consume the content because they can consume it at time that they have.


00:23:28
But also live workshops are still a very real piece of what it means to provide support and so that's still a piece of my work, my 50 40 10 breakdown of educational consulting and instructional coaching does not look like that 50 40 10 I just shared. I wanted it to be right now. 31.5% is just planning and prep time. That's my other category. Creating is about 37%. Support is about 25% and learning is only 6.5. So again, I have some work to do alongside everyone else. Please please share with us what this journey looks like for you and tune into our next episode of our mini series, which will come in another two weeks. So get excited about more conversation about strategic planning.
​
Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher​

Welcome to episode 65 of the Time for Teachership podcast. Today's episode is packed with talking about system, systemic issues around parenting, my own exciting announcements and what to expect in the next several months. Let's dive into the episode.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
So I am recording this episode in advance. By this point, I may just be on parental leave.

00:01:18
So I am excited to welcome a new child to the family and as a result I'm taking a few months of parental leave this spring. Now, what that means for you as a listener? Don't worry, we have a bunch of things coming.
So for the next few months we are going to have pre recorded guest episodes. They are new episodes with guests. They have been recorded a few months prior and we're also bringing back the how-to series, two how-to series actually, from last season that featured a lot of solo shows from me giving you really the how to deep dive into two different topics. And those topics are efficient planning for better work life balance, and also justice centered curriculum design. You'll see one in March and one in July. The other episodes will drop weekly. We may even have some bonus episodes for you that are just for subscribers, so make sure you're subscribed to the show that feature themselves kind of positioned at the end of each of the how-to series.

00:02:21
So this will be new episodes with guests
As we dive into today. I am definitely in the parental leave mindset in terms of just recognizing as the first time parent, how difficult and challenging it is to take leave from a job. I am self employed but you know, thinking about what it is like as a person who might be employed by a private company, a public company, government company, really all of these different situations that people may find themselves in. And I always bring it back to these systemic issues that impact us as people, regardless of what our jobs are, but also through an education lens. So I kinda want to talk about that today as I'm thinking about my own journey and also just recognizing that on this show, we really tried to call out inequity and injustice as it's happening at the structural level and then thinking about what we can do, so ending with an action step that we can take to address the systemic injustice.
So, when I think about childcare for teachers, for students, I don't know, we'll pivot maybe back and forth between some personal and then some some larger structural pieces here.

00:03:29
I had always heard that childcare was expensive and then going on this journey myself to find child care, to try to figure out how to budget for childcare, to recognize that so many people opt to not work because childcare is almost more costly than what they are paid, because people are so underpaid and childcare is incredibly expensive and not publicly funded as of yet, in many places.
There are all of these different factors that really take people and oftentimes women out of the workforce, right? And so as we think about this kind of systemic piece, you know, I'm going to go into a little bit more here, but I also want to just name that, in addition to being so expensive, it's also not super accessible. So finding a place for people to send their children is actually way more complicated than I had realized. And so there are so many structural factors, we're going to talk about what those are. Let's see why that kind of condition is the way that it is.

00:04:31
And so let's maybe just dive in there
In terms of federal inaction, right? The actions that have not been taken to the federal level. The US spends only a 3rd of 1% of GDP on childcare. Compared with an average of a set of, you know,.74%, so almost a full percentage point among the organization for economic cooperation and development countries. And so if we think about that, first of all, that's a very, very small amount, right? We're talking about less than 1% point in general. But then we have, you know, less than half, almost like almost a third of the cost that other countries who are in similar economic brackets to us are spending on childcare. So it just really does not seem to be a priority for the federal government.
In terms of access, as I mentioned, it's really hard to find childcare. And so half of people living in the states live in places where there's no licensed childcare provider or where there are three times as many children as child care slots.

00:05:38
So it's really challenging to actually find a childcare slot for someone who's planning to go back to work.
Childcare costs a typical family, about a third of its income. And I would venture to guess that that is even higher in particular areas. Often I've heard it referred to as a second mortgage, right? And I can attest that that absolutely rings true for my personal experience as well. In terms of the benefits, like what if we had a world right? Like the question of dreaming usually comes up at the start of my interview episodes, but you know, thinking about what that world could look like if we were to prioritize and fund childcare in a meaningful way. There are economic benefits of quality, affordable childcare in that those benefits economically extend for generations, research has shown. And some studies actually showed that it, you know, more than pays for itself. So it's not like we're actually spending money on it because that return is coming back to us as a country. Relative to comparable developed nations with more supportive family policies,

00:06:43
and I'm reading from a research report here conducted by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, such as paid family leave protections for demanding a change to part time work schedules, publicly provided childcare services. The labor force participation rate of women in the United States has fallen behind, coming in between two and 14% points lower. The 19 other "developed nations in 2016". And so we see this pushing out of oftentimes women. But many family members and caretakers, we know just statistically that a lot of people with children are actually single moms and identify as single moms, and so this is a really important gender aspect to this conversation as well. They're being pushed out of the workforce, different from choosing, right? Because it's not a choice if you feel like it's your only option. And so we lose as a nation that economic output.
Not that I think we should measure quality of life and success as a country in terms of purely economic output. But if that's the argument being made for why we're not spending money on childcare, it makes sense to actually look at the research and find that it does pay for itself, right?

00:07:51
And it does create more economic wealth for the country as a whole.
There's also a wealth of social benefits for children, for parents, and academic benefits for children later on when we enable family members to choose and set up policies for child care that works for them. When we think about, you know, what's going on in the childcare provider lens, the average hourly wage for educators who are in these early childcare centers is slightly more than $12 an hour. So we've been having these conversations about $15 minimum wage and really making sure that our living wage is, is that a living wage or minimum wages living wage? I should say $12 an hour is under that, right? So home based providers even make less than that and their income is really tied to how many people they can get into their homes. That's subject to lots of fluctuations, right? Being a business owner is challenging.
20% of early educators have lost their jobs in the pandemic In the summer of 2020 and countless programs have permanently closed their doors as a result of COVID as well.

00:09:00
And so we think about all of these various constraints on the childcare providers themselves. We can see that the value of having a federally funded, federally subsidized, federally prioritized child care system is really going to be important for us as a nation to create all of these benefits that we ultimately want and help people live their fullest lives. It's also about what we value, right? And so when it comes down to it, if there are economic benefits to choosing this, and we still haven't, like what's really going on here? And so the only time that the United States has actually done something similar to universal public childcare was during World War Two. So the Lanham Act in 1941 directed federal funding to high quality government run child care centers. And the goal for this was just that women could work as part of the war effort, because the war effort was deemed priority, right. That was something that we valued. In all the legislation, it was highly emphasized that this was an emergency procedure and these were not permanent centers.


00:10:07
Interestingly, researchers found that children who went to these centers, particularly if they were from low income families, performed better educationally and economically throughout their lives compared with children who were too young to be eligible for the care. So this is a beneficial system. We have tried it before because we decided we valued it in that moment as a nation. It has worked. It has created lots of benefits for the children.
Universal child care also had strong bipartisan support when it was proposed in the Comprehensive Childhood Development Act in 1972, but President Nixon vetoed it because it "had family weakening implications". So as we think about that piece, right? We also see this idea of this preservation of what I would name as you know, similar to Bell Hooks' white supremacist capitalist patriarchy, right? She calls that system that those interlocking systems there by their name. And she calls out that this is a huge part of a lot of our our social problems. That preservation of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy rings

00:11:19
so true in the case of childcare and parental leave, right?
We value certain types of labor, right? We have a temporary childcare program during World War Two for the war effort, but it's temporary. We overrule where we veto legislation that has bipartisan support because we want to control the role of women, people who identify as women right? Here is what a woman is, it's equivalent to a mother. And also there's a racial component here as well. So, we're bringing in the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy part, right? BIPOC women are not even seen as mothers in this context, they're caretakers to other people's children. They are not invited to stay at home. We're looking at this, we're looking at the role of the white women, right? And so this is really interesting to see the intersections of how not only this gender dynamic is at play, but also the racialization of women within gender roles,

00:12:22
that again fuses together the weight supremacy and the patriarchy that is at play here.
If we talk about parental leave here, right? This all of this carries over to parental leave policy and thinking about why we don't have that, in addition to why we don't have paid childcare. In an international context, among 41 countries, only the United States lacks paid parental leave. There's actually an article entitled just that. And so what we found is that the smallest amount of paid leave that is required of any of these other 41 countries is about two months. So two months is the bare minimum of paid leave internationally among similarly economically well off countries. Several of these countries actually provide a year or more of paid leave. The United States does not have such a thing, although we're working on policy to equip all workers to have this in terms of current access for US

00:13:26
workers. In 2020, only 20% of private sector workers have access to paid family leave to care for a new child or a new family member. When we look specifically at low-wage workers, there are a lot less likely to have access to paid leave. So for example, 8% of workers in the bottom wage quartile, so these are folks who earn on average less than $14 an hour, had access to paid family leave in 2020. Again, that's 8% in the bottom quartile. Black and Latino ex workers are less likely than white non Latino ex workers to have access to paid family and medical leave. Again, a racialized aspect of this white supremacist capitalist patriarchy piece.
After the Federal Employee Paid Leave Act went into effect on October 1st in 2020, an estimated two million federal employees then had access to 12 weeks of paid parental leave. But again, this is just if you were a federal employee. Also, there are state specific access points. So California, New Jersey, Rhode island, New York, Washington and Massachusetts, as well as Washington D. C.

00:14:31
have established paid parental leave via a payroll tax. So it's also interesting to determine how they have successfully funded that tax, right? And that is through a payroll tax for higher earners. And it has been working well.
The other piece of this that I want to bring into the conversation is what about student parents? And so these are folks who are in either high school or college who are students and they are also parents. So they have their own children. They're still trying to go to school, get their degree. These students are often left out of conversations about equity and justice. We don't see these students oftentimes in larger conversations about policy or supports as an identity group in and of themselves, right? In terms of that access to their identity is often missing from the conversation. And so starting with college, because oftentimes we have these conversations, I think my perception is that these conversations exist a bit more at the college level. So you know, about 22% or so of undergrads are parents, 70% of those student parents are mothers,

00:15:42
so identifying as female, and 62% of them are single mothers. Over 44% of student parents, these are all student parents, work a full time job. And I think as a result of all of these things, right? 52%, so just half of student parents drop out of college before earning their degree. So more than half drop out. Less than half are making it to graduation and actually earning their degree. This is a critical piece of the college experience. If you are a parent and going to college, you're also likely to be working a full time job in many, many cases and you are parenting, right, and trying to figure out daycare, and trying to figure out the cost of your tuition, and trying to stay on top of your grades. This is a conversation that needs to continue in terms of support for this group of student parents at the college level.
I also want to make sure that we're naming and thinking about high school student parents. So 30% of all teenage girls who dropped out of school at the high school level cite,

00:16:49
It's because of pregnancy and parenthood. Rates among Latin ex students and African American students, black students are higher than for white students. Only 40% of teen mothers finish high school. So these are all statistics that are really pointing to this gendered racialized dynamic here. And again, only 40% of teen moms finished high school, being, you know, again, less than half. Fewer than 2% of those students who are pregnant during high school finished college by age 30. So even given a few extra years there, a few, basically an extra decade, fewer than 2% are going to go on to finish college. And again, I want to emphasize this is not an individual student issue. It's not like being a worse learner, right? It's these structural pieces that are in place or not in place to make it more difficult, more challenging, lend less support to these students who are in this particular situation.
Now, many solutions that we talked about

00:17:52
focus on pregnancy prevention and of course, I am a huge proponent of comprehensive sex education. Super important. But I also think that conversation ignores the students who have children currently, right? And so having a look at some of the legislation that has been passed and the considerations that have been made. In California in 2015, there was a bill passed by California Latinas for Reproductive Justice. They wrote the bill and the bill was entitled A B 302 Lactation Accommodation. And it was passed. So it allowed lactating students to bring their breast pumps to school, store their breast milk and provide private and secure rooms to deal with any breastfeeding needs that they have. And so this, the policy manager for this organization who wrote it really emphasized that there's so much, you know, so little support that it impacts so much the decision to make parenting decisions like breast feeding or not breast feeding based on whether you have that support in your educational environment.

00:18:56
So it's important to enable children, students to parent their children in whatever way that they would like.
One positive case study I want to name is New York City's Free Department of Education run daycare centers, which are currently housed in 33 public schools across New York City. This is known as the LYFE program, L. Y. F. E. And it's existed since 1982. This is a program that enables students who bring their children to the school that they attend, but if they attend a school in which the program is affiliated, leave them in the high quality day care center, go to school themselves, come back, get their child at the end of the day and go home. They don't have to worry about daycare. They know that their child is right there if they need to run down, if they their child gets sick, if there is a fire drill, they have people who are, you know, bringing them outside, all of that is taken care of. They get to be full students as they enter the school building, right? They have this taken care of. This is something that I believe we can do. We can advocate to your own Department of Education to create a system like the LYFE program. Or if you're already part of the LYFE program where you're in New York where you have a system like this, advocate for increasing the number of schools involved in the program.

00:20:15
And again, this is a D. O. E. funded, Department of Education funded program that has a high success for students in terms of graduation rates. I think it's like 90% of students who have this support will actually go on to graduate.
So in conclusion, I've gone on a long ramble of the structural factors that really are important to consider, both as adults and employees of an educational system, and also for our students who are navigating the educational system. As I go off on my parental leave and we are on a personal note, very fortunate that my partner's job just added a parental leave policy this year which will give him three months of paid leave, the show will go on as I am gone. So again, there's new prerecorded guest episodes that will air weekly. We are bringing back those two how-to series: around efficient planning for better work life balance and justice centered curriculum design. You have access to my website for tons of free resources as well as self paced courses that are open for enrollment at any time.

00:21:19
That's www.lindsaybethlyons.com. And again, there might be some bonus episodes that are for subscribers to the podcast only. So make sure you are subscribed and I will see you in a few months. Continue to think big, act brave and be your best self.
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Links from the episode:
​

• LYFE program
• Sources include: 
  • Center for American Progress and a second article here
  • NYTimes
  • Research report conducted by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston
  • “Among 41 countries, only U.S. lacks paid parental leave”
  • BBC
  • National University
  • National Conference of State Legislatures
  • Al Jazeera

Lindsay: Today, you'll hear from Dr. Richard Shell. This conversation was recorded on July 8th of 2021. G. Richard Shell is a global thought leader and senior faculty member at one of the world's leading business schools, the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. He served as chair of Wharton's legal studies and business ethics department, the largest department of its kind in the world. His book, The Conscious Code: Lead With Your Values. Advance Your Career, addresses an increasingly urgent problem in today's workplace, standing up for core values such as honesty, fairness, personal dignity and justice, when the pressure is on to look the other way. Shell is a skilled communicator across many diverse audiences. His students have included everyone from Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and Fortune 500 CEOs to FBI hostage negotiators, Navy seals, and the United Nations Peacekeepers. In addition, he has worked extensively with public school teachers, labor unions, nurses and hospital administrators to help them become more effective professionals. Can't wait for you to hear from Dr Richard Shell.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities,

00:01:17
take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Dr. Richard Schell. Welcome to the Time for Teacher Ship podcasts.
Dr. Richard: My pleasure Lindsay. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Lindsay: Of course. I think there's so much alignment between what we do that this will be really relevant for leaders, for teachers, for family members of kids in the education system today. So I'm excited to dive in. I just read your professional bio. So I was wondering is there anything else you wanted to add to that professional bio about yourself or anything that feels relevant to share?


00:02:24
Dr. Richard: Sure, thank you. I think the only thing is to realize this guy was coming on to your show how deeply embedded in teaching I am. I've taught in a daycare center. I've taught in elementary school and then, I, you know, late in life when I was 37, I became a professor teaching undergrads, MBAs and executives. But you know, it just reminded me of how important teaching is to me personally and what, how much I've learned essentially from being a teacher.
Lindsay: That's amazing. I love that I just learned that about you, right, when we hopped on the call and so important for our conversation today. So the big question that I always start the show with is, you know, what your dream for education is. And I like to ground that in Bettina Love's words around the idea of freedom dreaming. She says that it's dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so, knowing what we know about the education system, even about workplaces more broadly, I'm curious to know, you know, what your dream is there?
Dr. Richard: Well, you know, I'm social justice warrior from time was because my generation, the big pushes were the civil rights movement and the war in Vietnam, which had effects on people of color and minorities and people who are poverty in a much bigger way than it did on people who were in college and elites.


00:03:48
But I was a conscientious objector actually in the Vietnam war, became a pacifist and peace work was a very important part of my early sort of life. That's when I actually was working. I was working at a daycare center in the ghettos of Washington D. C. I mean, sometimes the adults who were supposed to pick up their kids didn't show up at the end of the day. They were prostitutes or they were you know, they were involved in something that made it impossible for them to show up. And so I got my introduction to sort of the social conflicts of American society right there at the very beginning. And then I became a social worker in D. C. as part of my pacifist work during the Vietnam era. So all that is very sort of formative to my approach to what I do now, which is of course teaching people in the business school.


00:04:49
But it's interesting how much concern there is for issues of social justice and inequality in the generation of people now going into business.
Lindsay: Yeah. And I think that's really interesting to think about. As you're saying, it's kind of a generational thing that's really important. I know you talk about this a lot in the forward or the introduction to your book and I think when we're thinking about like the mindset shift for people who have been in workplaces and education settings for a while and now seeing people come in who are new to the field, new to the workplace and having these set of values and this set of, you know principles that lead them to want to advance justice in their work settings. I'm wondering what mindset shifts, the people who are entrenched in the systems have been working for a long time. I really need to take on or adopt to be able to transform workplaces and workplace cultures to help people coming in who are passionate about justice and wanting to advance it.

00:05:54
Dr. Richard: Yeah, I think that's a great question. you know, I think a lot depends on what you think your work is as well as who you think you are. But in general across all domains of work, including education, there are three ways to think about work. One is, it's a job, the other is, it's a career and the third is, it's a calling, and I've always approached my work and education as a calling. If it's just a job, then values are kind of things you try to keep at arm's length because they complicate it. You're just there to earn money to support your family, to get through the day. And there are plenty of teachers who have jobs. There are plenty of ministers who have jobs and doctors who have jobs. This is not anything unique to any particular field. So it's really hard to convert someone who thinks of their work only as a job to someone who's going to think about it deeply in a different way.


00:07:00
That doesn't mean they can't be brought to it. It just means that they have to have something happen in their lives that flips the switch to see that what they're doing actually has a profound opportunity embedded in it to bring something else that they are, which could be leaders in their spiritual community or leaders in their local communities that do all kinds of interesting things that they can bring all that to work and then the work becomes something different than it was before. So that's the job. The career person has a little more commitment to some of the norms that are embedded in their workplace because in order to succeed as a career that get advancement and so on, they're going to have to play by some set of rules that are broadly understood to be the way you get ahead.
And so, you know, it's funny though, I've met a lot of people who are teachers. I've done workshops for public schools and for principals and superintendents of school districts.

00:08:07
And um what I've heard from them is that for many of them who are in administration, um they took the career approach and they regret it because what they loved about teaching was teaching, what they found they were good at in addition to teaching with administration. And so they allowed themselves to get promoted to get more money and to get more status than to have more insulin. But then pretty soon they were never even close to the thing that they actually were passionate about and they become um distressed, they actually can get a little depressed because they've lost touch with the core meaning that was going on. So the people who approached work as a calling another term for this is meaningful work. Um and it doesn't have to, you can have meaningful work and it doesn't have to be for money, meaningful work is what you do that's meaningful, that is work.

00:09:10
Uh but it generally combines uh your values and opportunities to express their values every day, not just once a year at a corporate retreat, it involves some reward system. So you're, you feel appreciate it and there's some currency, whether it's money or, or influence or something that allows you to feel that sort of, I'm a player in this space. Uh It involves your talents that say you're doing something that actually utilizes your native abilities and it allows you to grow and improve those abilities and then finally your passions. So what is it that when you wake up in the morning, you feel excited about what you're gonna do instead of, oh no, I gotta do that again. So, so when you put all those little, these little things together, you can advance from a career to a calling by having more wisdom about what promotions you take, you know, a promotion may not be a good idea.

00:10:15
Uh And also um you, you feel like a good test, I find the people who are bringing it all in their everyday life is that when you engage in whatever it is you do after engaging in it for a period of time during the day, you feel more energy than you did at the beginning of the activity. And and when it's the reverse, when you feel depleted, it's generally the case that there's something, some element of those four items I ticked off is missing. It may not be your talent. So you're stretching something, you're not that good at it and you're never going to be that good at it, or it may be that it's um the rewards have disappeared, and so you're not getting the validation that you need in order to kind of be energized, There are a lot of different parts of it, but I think a good test is like from when I teach a class at Wharton, um I love it and I feel energized at the end of it in a way that I didn't feel at the beginning and that that's a good class.

00:11:21
I know that I'm doing what I should be doing. So I think educators, that's a test, you know, are you in a job career or calling? And and what parts of what you do? Can you elevate to the to the context of sort of being called to it? I love how as you were describing that I was thinking not just of of adults and, you know, teachers and people in those professional roles, but also of how we connect with students and and the questions we ask students write, what job do you want when you grow up, what do you know, what career do you want to have? But like what is your calling? And can we create the conditions to have? You know, the ability to express your values every day in the class? Um your your passions, is there a reward system that, you know, is not um P. B. I. S. Or some of the things that are kind of happening now that are almost divorced from values right? Or divorced from that calling peace and have that growth potential for the talents that they have and can build on their strengths. So I think there's so much value in that framing not just for adults but for how we educate our Children. Well I I teach a whole class at warden for undergraduates that is nothing but that I we spent a whole semester while they think about those factors and how they can implement them in a career, you know, in a work in their work.

00:12:38
I had a, you know, typical story for me is no warden is a pretty high potential place, it's hard to get into. Uh and they're pretty, it's driven people. Um But the but I you know, I tend to maybe attract that the students who are on journeys as opposed to already think they know what they are. So I had this one student who is um in our health care program as an undergrad, very bright. She graduated from Wharton and went to work for consulting firm in healthcare, but two years after she graduated, she got back in touch with me and said, you know, Professor Shell, I wonder if I could ask you for a letter of recommendation, I've sort of come to the conclusion that I want to be a nurse and she had written about wanting to be a nurse in her final paper for my class and I said of course leah I kind of wondered what that might look like when you got into consulting. So she got into another to N.

00:13:39
Y. U. S. Has got a great nursing school. Uh spent an extra year did undergrad again which is you know not all of it just to you know enough of it to do nursing and then got one year extra for masters degree in nursing. And now she's a nurse. And um and she is of course a really high potential leader. Uh huh. And um and and you know she had the courage to understand what her calling was and she realized she really needed to touch people to have her hands to help heal people. And uh and that that just that insight was critical And you know I think people can redo a lot of things that look like Oh dear I've already gotten this degree that's the end you know I have to stay on this path. I don't think so I didn't I didn't start teaching in this business school until I was in my late 30s and I and and I was forever thinking about what do I want to do what I want to do, who am I who am I what am I going to do?

00:14:42
And at one point I actually made a list Of you know when I was about 30 of all the things I could do and all the things I could never do. So on the list of things I could do was I could teach english um because I've been an undergrad english major, you know, I could be a carpenter because I kind of like to work with wood at the top of the list of the things I could never do was teaching a business school and here I am, I'm a senior professor, chairman department at the best school, one of the best schools in the world in business. So there you go, you know, uh follow your talents. Sometimes they lead you to unexpected places, wow, that's such a great group of stories and I think inspiring for people both coming into education because I was part of a teacher prep program that was alternative certification. So similar to um, it was called new york city teaching Fellows. Similar to like teach for America where sometimes you have people coming in that were, You know, 20 years into a career and something else and now they're in education because they are trying to find that calling.

00:15:46
And then also for people that are like career minded educators who are just not loving it anymore, you know, and who who maybe need a shift. And so I love those as, as those stories are potential I think and they give potential for people who maybe are feeling stuck in whatever they're doing now to to find that calling. Yeah, it was funny and the first time I ever taught this class that I just mentioned, um it's called success. That's what the class is called, sort of, what is it, you know? Uh but the first time I taught it, Angela Duckworth's was a PhD student in, in at the positive psychology center pen and she took it uh which meant that really she taught it, I mean, you know, she's brilliant person, um and she's actually written a blurb for the conscience code and I'm a friend of hers now and uh but her passion is education um you know, she she's really deeply when she was a senior college, she set up a program up in Cambridge massachusetts. That was just sort of a head start kind of program for kids to, you know, give them disadvantaged kids to get them, you know, a jumpstart on, on certain skills like math and her whole grit thing is about uh you know, trying to give kids a sense of resilience so they can, you know, sort of take on whatever it is that that the society is dealing them, which is a lot, but then find the inner resources to pick themselves up and keep going towards their goals and you know, so so you know, there's I've I really feel that the education environment, you know, is where you can have the highest impact on helping people to discover who they are and what ways they can be of greatest use to others.

00:17:28
Yeah, I love I love that your book offers so much in these stories you're telling offers so much in so many different dimensions. Both, you know, the student lens, but also the the educator lens. And I want to talk a little bit more about your book. It's called the conscious code and you talk about the ethics refugee phenomena. And I think this is really interesting, um for a variety of reasons, but a lot of what people have been asking me as educators and as leaders in education lately, um particularly as we have this kind of awakening of social justice kind of nationally, globally. You know, we want to be anti racist. We want to be inclusive of various identities in the education space and in some cultural context, in some environments of particular school district communities, there are rules or in some cases laws for particular states that are banning conversations about anti racism, where, you know, there are these um kind of places that are or things being put in place that are confining their ability to live out who they are in the workplace and, you know, advanced justice and teach the way that they know they got into education to teach and lead for leaders.

00:18:42
And so the question I keep hearing again and again from teachers and leaders is how can I teach and lead for justice while also keeping my job or does it mean I give up my job, And I think your book just kind of addresses that question in great detail. The subtitle is the conscience code. Leave with your values, advance your career. So, uh there is there is a there is a needle that we're trying to thread here, which is not lead with your values, lose your career. That although sometimes that is the cost of having values. Uh, you know, I think, you know, that the ethnic, the ethics refugee is that inspired this book, are the people I've met in my M. B. A classroom, and there are people who uh come to warden, come to grad school, pivoting out of not some sort of dissatisfaction with the work they were doing, but dissatisfaction with the values of their workplaces. They were victims of sexual harassment, sometimes sexual assault. Uh, they're victims of racism, there are victims of um of being ordered to do what they knew to be immoral or unethical things and what they didn't have, the reason they they quit was because they didn't have the tools to stand and fight and they did have the option to cut and run.

00:20:03
And so there they are sitting in my classroom and I'm thinking to myself, well, this is great. It's kind of an expensive way to pivot off of a job. You know, NBA education is not cheap. Uh and they're never going to get a chance to play that card again because next time this happens and it will happen, it's not whether, what are they going to do, they're going to just quit again. Uh, so, uh, you know, they've got to have some tools. So I, the conscience code really is kind of, I actually think of it as like a manual for guerilla warfare from the bottom up to stand up for your values, rally coalitions to um, spread the word about what your values are and to effectively become agents for change now. And, and, and that means keep your career and advance your career now. If you're, if you're in a legal system that makes your value illegal.

00:21:07
And let's say you're in Saudi Arabia and you're a female and you want to drive a car. Well, it's illegal in Saudi Arabia to drive a car. So, uh, so if you're um, trying to be effective as an agent of change in Saudi Arabia and your woman, um, you know, just driving a car is not going to actually do the trick because they'll just put you in jail and that, you know, that's, that's really not a, that's not always the best place to be, we know from history that, it's sometimes a really good place to be if you're nelson Mandela or uh, you know, some other person who's able to transform their prison experience into movement, but most of us don't have that gift. Uh, so I think there are times when exiting is the right way and then you become an agent for change from the outside in um, in a, in a state that's passing progressive legislation.

00:22:10
I think it it's um, you know, you run for office, you turn your turn your or you or you become politically active in whatever way that it's appropriate to actually work on the system. Because the hardest I there there are five pressures I talked about in the book that push against our values. One is peer pressure. So everybody does it. It's hard to stand and say, well, I don't do it. Um, Authority pressure, which is people in positions of power order you to do it. And that's a pretty strong push, especially if the boss controls your paycheck. But even if they don't where humans are wired to obey authority, it's not, it's not a kind of distortion of human perception that we think people in authority have some influence over us. It's a way of coordinating society. So, um, we can push back when they think when we know they're giving us bad orders. And so, but authority pressure is number two.

00:23:17
Um, then you get incentive pressures and that is the pressure of the paycheck. The pressure of the deadline, The pressure of the, um, uh, the client demand or the investment demand or the school board's demands or the parents demands, uh, and uh, so those can push you in the wrong direction. Um Then you've got rolls and rolls pressure can mean, well you're just a soldier. So you you know, you don't have the you don't have the place, it's not your place to stand up and say wait a minute. We're torturing prisoners. Uh, this is wrong and I'm going to call the new york times to tell them about it. So you just have this self inflicted wound of limiting your effectiveness by embracing your role as powerless. And then the final and this is the one that education is facing in the examples you gave is what I call systemic pressure. So P. A. I. R. S. Spells pairs and Pierre authority, incentives, roles and systems and the systems pressure is the hardest one because systems like racism, systems like sexism, systems like um intolerance or bigotry are are really embedded in the culture.

00:24:40
And so when you're when you're up against system pressure, you're going to have to use political tools. There's no other way individually. You don't stand a chance against system pressure. Um and that's why I kind of think of this book as sort of a manual for guerilla warfare because um you're the first thing you need to do is find the like minded people and rally and gain confidence and power from the group that have similar values. Then you have to be smart and figure out strategies that will advance the ball incrementally. Um, but I I take some heart from gay marriage as a system systemic revolution. Um, one of my sons is gay and you know, when he was born gay marriage was like something close to Pluto as a imaginary state of social life. But enough people in small ways started with massachusetts and I was a court case in massachusetts, then another court case, then another legislative initiative.

00:25:54
And then, and then pretty soon people got stronger and could declare who they were. And it turned out that gay people were living next door and we're our Children and we're uh, you know, just people we knew respected and had nothing to quarrel about with. And that turned out to be non political. In other words, it turned out that conservatives, you know, have gay Children in the same percentage as liberals too. And so then all of a sudden this social agreement which had been thoroughly oriented one way, which is this the systemic cultural pressure, It just went boom, boom, boom boom. And when it flipped it flipped all the way to the other side. Just And uh, now we're still plenty of people in America who think that uh, you know, that, that uh, that there's something evil about uh, you know, people's, you know, way of living, but they, but that, you know, you never get 100%.

00:26:58
So, but what we have is the society by virtue of these systemic incremental activities, same way, water sort of works, you know, on a hillside just gradually erodes things and creates channels to create channels, create, you know, wider riverbeds and then and it takes time, but it's relentless and I think that's where um, you know, someone who has a conscience, they know their values, they know that injustice is in front of them. Okay, okay, now, what do we do? And um that's what the book's about. And I love that you lay out kind of the 10, the 10 pieces to that to that framework. And I just wanted to say my favorite, I think I love the idea of committing to your values early on just knowing what they are and committing to them is a huge piece. Um you talked about the power of two, which I think, you know, you were just speaking about even like I was thinking about kind of multiple scenarios, there one being, you know, when you're saying like find your people and and connect with people who who share those values for a teacher who might be pre service right now and is going to now go look for a job being able to interview the people who are interviewing you and seeing, you know, that I think is something I didn't realize I could do as an early career teacher um and became really important to me as I switched schools.

00:28:32
Um but also if you do find yourself in a school and you're listening to this as an employee in a current school district to be able to find someone else and just have a conversation with someone else in your organization who may agree. I loved your examples in the book and that chapter that we're just about, you know, finding having the conversations, finding someone who can be either a person who echoes you or you echo them that you're standing up together and it's a lot easier to stand up against injustice. I mean, the research on these pressures that I just mentioned is really telling because both Pierre and authority pressure are are well researched and an astonishing really the experiments that demonstrated them show just how how malleable humans are. But in the famous experiments dealing with peer pressure and authority pressure, standing Milgram's experiments on, you know, they have these fake electrocution devices that they got people to actually induced, they induced people to give lethal doses of an electric charge who are just people off the streets in New Haven.

00:29:43
Uh and peer pressure. Uh Solomon ash got people to agree that two lines of different lengths are the same length by having everyone else in the room say they were the same length. And then the poor person who was the subject kind of got pushed along into saying, well, okay, everybody says so, so it must be the same length. But in both cases all they had to do, the experimenters had to do to change the dynamics of those conformity ease was introduced one other person who told the truth, all you needed was one person in the room and said the lines of different lengths. And then the subject went, of course they're different lengths. And the peer pressure even though there was still 10 to 1 or 10 to 2. Now the 10 to 2 made it possible for it to be too uh and in the authority condition these experiments, you know, with these fake electric shocks friggin. They put one person in the room with the subject who said after a couple of rounds, this is immoral, this is unethical. I quit, I'm getting out of here. And then the subjects went, hey, that's exactly what I was thinking. I'm out of here too.

00:30:44
And so so this this this this um, there's a concept in psychology called pluralistic ignorance. Have you ever heard of pluralistic ignorance, pluralist? It's a, it's something you should definitely wiki look up pluralistic ignorance is the um the the phenomenon That you're in a room with six people and someone tells a sexist joke and everybody in the room thinks that it's a sexist joke and they're offended by it. But nobody says anything and they all think that the other people think that it's funny and so they're ignorant about what is actually going on in other people's minds and they're all fearful of being the one who stands up and makes themselves an issue. But in fact, if one of them speaks up and says, that's an offensive joke, all the other ones will go, that's exactly what I think too. And now the person who's the sexist joke teller is been told where they stand and they probably won't be doing that again.

00:31:53
But pluralistic ignorance is what keeps us in silence. We were afraid that everybody else thinks something that they don't think and all. That's what leadership is. The leader is, the one who says sorry, but not funny and they take a risk. Maybe everybody's going to disapprove, but you'd be amazed at how often, if not all of them, at least one or two, the rest of them are going to say Me too. And and that's when the values change, that's when the organizational culture starts to change. That's when people find courage, uh, and ability to speak up. It's, you know, but but it takes it takes the one to break the pluralistic ignorance, uh, and break it open. I love the example that that you just shared. And I, and I'm I'm wondering if you can, my third favorite chapter was the ask for questions and I don't want to give too much of your book away, but I'm just curious if you could, if you could share a little bit about those four questions that someone would ask as they're determining, you know, what do I do in this situation, like the sexist jokes scenario you just gave or or you know something else.

00:33:03
Like my administrator just told me I can't teach uh you know the 16 19 project about slavery in the United States or something. Um Yeah. Um So yeah the chapter I asked four questions and it's really just a way to check list of the factors that um that you ought to be thinking through when you decide how to take action on on a values conflict problem. And um so you take the 16 19 teaching project problem. Uh Alright first um consequences. So this I'm big on acronyms. So we have the five pairs pressures and now we have the four clip questions C. L. I. P. Um I worked with a student when I wrote this book and every time I sent him a chapter he come back and say where's the momentum I wanted alone and I can remember this. Uh so I came up with them so clip cli p stands for consequences, loyalties, identity and principles And um and they all have deep philosophical roots and they you know, they go back and and into like antiquity, but these are the four things that people need to think about.

00:34:20
So you're you want to teach the 1619 project? The school principal said can't do it. All right. So so I mean I think in that case you already know what you want to do. And so the question is how are you going to go about doing it? So as you analyze the options of how to go about doing it. Um and one maybe go to a school board member that's that's friendly to you and see if you can engage an ally that way. Another might be to confer with some parents that are stakeholders that might exert some pressure on this principle, that it could be taught in some way. If if not exactly like let's just memorize the 1619 project, but you know, let's see what part of it are interesting and informative. So so there there but you're going through the different options of what to do and these clipped things begin to help you think it through. So the consequences, okay, what are the relative consequences, costs and benefits? Things that could, you know, move this forward or set us back about option a option B, option C and consequences is the way most people think about almost everything, you know, should I drive to the store or walk to the store and implicit in there is going to be well what are the consequences?

00:35:32
I walk and get exercise? I drive, I pollute uh on the other hand, I drive to get there faster, you know, so, you know, I can carry more groceries. So so we're doing consequences every day all day about everything moral case is important because the consequences are going to have higher stakes. So we work through the consequences. ele what loyalties do I feel now this is a personal thing. So let's just say that in this system, this principle who's now given this silly order is actually someone that was a mentor for you. Uh you know, they hired you, they brought you along, they gave you opportunities, but now they they they themselves have been pressured by some people to did this rule. So loyalties would be well, what do I owe this principle? Um what do I owe my Children? What do I owe? Uh and not about values, We're going to get to that in principle. So the but the the loyalties are the individual, the personal loyalties to think through what the what the factor, what that can help us inform our decisions and loyalties actually are not a western philosophical principal uh loyalties are Asian, uh they come more from sort of Chinese culture having you with family loyalty and loyalty to ancestors and things like that.

00:36:53
But everybody thinks about loyalties to and they make these important, different, difficult decisions. So, Alfred loyalties, you have to think that through i for identity, which I think is really important. And the whole book is really premised on, I think you should think of yourself as a professional and a person of conscience. The person of conscience is an identity factor and you sort of tested by asking Well in this situation, what would a person of conscience do and principally what you're doing is you're, you're sort of forecasting, who will I be if I make the decision this way, but that way, after the decision is over, and will I be someone I'm proud of? Will I be someone I'm ashamed of? Will I be someone who feels enormous guilt? Will it be someone who feels a degree of satisfaction or fulfillment? And um and and that's where conscience comes in, because conscience is fundamentally wired to guilt? Uh you know, we we have values, we feel guilty when we don't live up to them, and conscience is that little voice that's saying, no, no, no, you know, this is not the way you really should be.

00:38:02
So, so identity is about the who am I question. Uh, and who am I if I agree not to teach this, who am I, if I um if I take action, but I fail, who am I, if I resist this and get fired? Um, and then finally, the principles are things that you might bring to the profession as matters of, um sort of overarching ways that this profession must work in my world, academic freedom is a principle. And so when someone tells someone they can't teach something because of its ideology, when you're in higher education, you go, sorry, academic freedom. Uh, that doesn't apply as cutely in secondary education and public education as it does in in post secondary, but that is an example of a principal Now, a principal might also be um Children first. And so whatever is going on, I always ask myself what's best for the Children.

00:39:10
And so whatever your principles are that apply to how you do your professional work, that's the last checklist. And then you know it's, you have to survey these four questions. They all come and have some balancing features, some plus some minus some unknowns and then you have to do the hard, hard work of exercising judgment and that's where having someone else in the conversation helps because you're just in your own little bubble and you may be overweighting or misunderstanding or misperceiving potential consequences of something and that if you can expand, you know in in success leadership, they call it mastermind groups uh in the there's a book called the extended brain which is sort of a psychologist view of like bring brains together and that's the way social systems work. The extended brain, no one has just an individual brain. We've all got an extended brain because we've been input by all these people that influenced us, our families, our culture, our communities and so on. And so think of yourself as sort of a loan decision makers, a bit of an illusion.

00:40:13
Uh and my viewers be explicit about it. So once you're in the clip framework and you thought things through then go to your colleagues and say well I'm going to lead us through a facilitated discussion of these things and here's my perceptions, but let's see what other points of view might help us make a wiser decision. Uh and so that, you know, though, when you figured when you've gone through those four clip factors, that's it, That's it. Those are the dimensions of a moral decision. And I'm confident in saying that because two or 3000 years of people, much smarter than me, have gone to back for those, and that's what they've come up with. And I think there's some wisdom in sort of you know, centuries of smart people trying to puzzle about stuff and the clip factors is just a distillation of those centuries. I love that. I think that's my favorite chapter in the book. It's just so concrete and practical in terms of helping people through those difficult decisions. And I also love that you really emphasized that identity can really be a huge factor for people in that.

00:41:17
Um one of the things that resonated when I was reading the book were the stories of your students who were reflecting back and many of whom did not regret doing something and taking action and standing up to an injustice, but many who did not stand up to an injustice, kind of felt guilt or, you know, looking back on that, like, oh, I really wish I did do something. And so that resonated with me there. There's there's a marvelous quote from uh it's actually a mystery series on tv that uh some public television I was watching. But there was, it was about, it was a story about police corruption and there was a police chief and their assistant and they were walking together and they were the two people trying to fight the corruption. And there was this big crisis in the story and the big conflict was about to happen. They were going to confront all the bad guys and their careers are at risk. And the older one turns to the younger one and says, well here we are, a moment of courage or a lifetime of regret and you know, the moment, you know, you know the moments you you don't, you don't you don't get to do over on some of these.

00:42:22
And so that's what the book is trying to do is help people prepare. So they're better able to meet those moments. They come up when you don't expect them. They come up often unwelcome, uh, you know, they divert you from some other thing that you were doing that you thought was all like ready to go. And then here comes this value of conflict. This annoying ah upsetting conflict that you just as soon give to someone else or talk yourself out of involving yourself in. Well, okay, you're either ready or not to meet that rationalization and if you're not ready, that's where the remorse will happen later. If you're ready, then you'll be able to do it. If you've got a second. I just want to tell you one story about that because leah the woman I told you it was a nurse, she read the conscience code, She's a big fan of mine so I can count on her to be a reader. She she emailed me from her nursing job in new york uh you know a couple of weeks ago and said well I read the conscience could I think it helped me.

00:43:25
And I said I emailed her back and said tell me. And so she said she'd been at a nursing con you know at a team meeting at her nursing station and the boss come in and said okay team I need you all to initial this paperwork that shows that the safety checks were done on these given days. And leah looked at it and said well I wasn't at work on any of these days and and he said well it's okay, it's just paperwork, you just need to initial it uh you know be a team player. And then uh leah said well I'm not going to sign off on something that happened when I wasn't at work. And and then of course the other nurses, this is pluralistic ignorance. The other nurses all said neither are we. And uh she said I wouldn't I have visualized my I wouldn't have sort of stepped into that situation with the same degree of confidence. If I hadn't just read your book. Um so so I think you can be better prepared. It sort of primed you to be ready to do the right thing when the moment happened. That's an amazing story.

00:44:30
And yeah, those moments happen all the time, they are inevitable, they're going to pop up. And so it's good to be prepared for them. And your book does such a wonderful job of that. And we just talked about a lot of different things. I'm wondering, as a listener is kind of wrapping wrapping up this episode and kind of going about their lives, what is maybe one thing that they could take away to kind of put into action or to remember? Um if they could only remember one thing the next time something comes up. Really, really simple. Thanks for asking that. I think the most important thing is when you confront one of these moments like leah did, for example, or when the principle tells you to do something, you you uh you object to ask yourself what would a person of conscience do in this situation, Forget it, forget about all the rest of it. Just what would a person of conscience do? And then if the answer is they would act then, okay, now we have to think about what to do. And that's that's not that personal conscience doesn't stand up and jump off a wall.

00:45:33
You know, it doesn't jump into the ocean. Doesn't doesn't go to the top of the building and start sheet screaming with a loudspeaker personal conscience acts effectively to address the issue and to advance the value. So, but you have to start with that. What would a personal consciences? That is such a powerful question. I love that. And then, um, one question I usually used to wrap up the show is, since we're all learners, educators, I feel like our amazing learners are lifelong learners, they're always learning and growing as professionals. What's something that you have been learning about lately? Oh wow. Um that's a that's a great question. Well, I have actually, you know, been learning about child development. Um, I four months ago I became a grandfather. Thank you. So my oldest son had his first child little mirror. And so as a grandparent, you look at this baby and you don't see it the same way as you did your own Children because your own Children, like, you know, urgent necessity. Uh you know, the theory of child rearing, it's not really like, you know, you don't have time, but for a grandchild, you see them from a distance.

00:46:42
You know, I sort of have been going back and reading some of the classic books about sort of nature and nurture and the role of genes and behavior and personality and you know, and just taking some some perspective on, you know, how she's gonna develop and grow and how little her parents may have to do with it. I mean they're going to love her of course. But it is interesting how much of our um the way we, we handle and present to the world and understand ourselves is really given to us as a, the architecture of, of who we are and and um so so it's a, so I've been learning about that, that is fascinating and congratulations again, that's so exciting to be here. Um and the final question is just where can people learn more about you, get your book or connect with you online? Sure, I can be found at all the stuff about all my books is my fifth um at G Richard Shell, S H E L L dot com.

00:47:49
Uh and so they'll learn about the, I've written on negotiation, persuasion influence success and now the Conscience Code. And um and the book can be found anywhere. It's on, it's a harpercollins. Leadership is the publisher. Such a big trade publisher. And there's a, if they go to harpercollins Leadership, Conscience Code, they'll find it uh amazon dot com, they'll find it Barnes and noble, they'll find it. Um and so it's uh it's easily found in that way. Excellent, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. That was such a pleasure talking to you Lindsay has been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks for listening. Amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it to continue the conversation. You can head over to our time for Teacher ship facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time, leaders continue to think Big Act, brave and be your best self.

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode: 

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• Dr. Shell's website
• Wharton UPenn’s Website 

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Lindsay: I am so excited to welcome Bronwyn Harcourt all the way from Australia onto the podcast today. For reference, this episode was recorded on September 27 in the United States, the 28th in Australia of 2021. Bronwyn is a principal at Croydon Community School, a position she has held for 21 years. Since 2008, Bronwyn has also managed a range of engagement, re-engagement and capacity building programs across Melbourne's eastern suburbs under the name of OPTIONS on behalf of the Department of Education and Training. In previous years, she also managed a re-engagement program for children and young people who had been forced from their homes by domestic violence. And another program that redirected impulsive and violent children so that they could engage in learning. Bronwyn was pivotal in developing a suite of martial arts therapy programs for children and young people, including peer education for students at Croydon Community school, teaching the code of: "Be Strong, Be Calm, Be Kind, Try Hard" to students at other schools and enabling them to adopt impulse management strategies into their lives. Croydon Community School is a proud member of the Big Picture Education network in Australia and passionately delivers personalized inclusive education for its students, meeting them at their point of need and interest.


00:01:12
The uniqueness of every student is valued and celebrated. Bronwyn's school is that every young person who graduates from Croydon will know their worth and make positive change in their worlds. In 2013, she was the D. E. T. Victorian Excellent Award Secondary Principal of the Year. She is widely recognized for her knowledge in effective education strategies for disengaged and at risk children and young people. Her sales are frequently sought out by schools, organizations, D.E.T. and government to contribute to their planning. Bronwyn is a fellow of Australian Council for Educational Leaders at both the Victorian and national branch level, was a finalist in Herald Sun Pride of Australia Medal in 2012. She was a board member of the Outer Eastern Local Learning Network for 13 years. A member of the ministerial advisory committee on out-of-home care at the invitation of Minister Mikakos and a member of the School Leaders for Gender Equality and Respect to Prevent Gender-based Violence and Sexism established by the education minister, the honorable James Merlino In 2017. She has a Master's in Education Administration, a graduate diploma in Special Education and her Bachelor's comes from health, physical education and recreation.

00:02:23
So excited to welcome on Bronwyn Harcourt.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about schoolwide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast, let's dive in.
Bronwyn Harcourt, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Bronwyn: Thanks Lindsay.
Lindsay: I'm so excited to have you on and I read your professional bio at the start of the episode. But is there anything else that you want to say to further either introduce yourself or to share more details about, you know, the school that you work on, the students that you serve?

00:03:42
Bronwyn: I think the biggest thing for me is that it's never what one person does, it's how a team operates together and how they enable others to do that work collaboratively. So for me, it's whatever it is that in my achievements. I actually am not particularly fond of sharing and celebrating them. My celebrations are more about what the young people have been through my school have achieved and what they continue to achieve. So yeah.
Lindsay: That's beautiful. I love that and it's very much in the spirit of kind of what we, what we talked about on the podcast too, in the realm of shared leadership and all of that. So that's perfect as we think about like the dreams that we all hold and kind of what we're all striving for as we work in these educational spaces. I love Dr Bettina Love's quote about freedom dreaming, she says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice.

00:04:47
I just find that really powerful and with that in mind, you know, I'd love to ask you, what is the big dream that you hold for the field of education.
Bronwyn: That whatever school young people go to, that they are treated as individuals and not factory fodder, that then they become more engaged in their learning, more interested in it, more curious, more wanting to find out what's out there, more like 4-year olds than right, that love of learning that we knock out of them. And I guess that, you know, the big dream I hold is that we have more creative, persistent, brave, courageous leaders who are willing to say, hang on, I hear what you're telling me to do, but the people I actually serve are the young people and it's them who I need to be.

00:05:54
Making sure that I'm translating whatever it is that you want me to do into something that is useful to them and not just to you think that, you know. I work in the public school and I very much hold that I serve the public and as much as it is, the bureaucrats who pay my salary and send me the policies and complaints and whatever it else that is that they wanted said, it is the students who I serve. And you know, that the community that they form and that we try and build so that when they leave, they the biggest qualities that they take away, that they are change makers in their local communities. Like they raise happy healthy children, that they make others feel good, that they are happy in what it is that they want to be pursuing in their life, that they have a choice.


00:07:08
And I think for me that's probably, I'm very much a "values driven later" rather than a "we must all reach this point". And look, I can advertise that my school has got 95% of its students to the... In Australia, We have ATAR which is for university entry. You know, but those things to me, it's there's so many bad things that have resulted in schools reaching that point that I would like them to not that not be the way that I leave my school. So yeah, that it changes. I guess that's my big dream, that it changes, that young people walk out their front door to whatever school they choose to go to and it provides for them wholeheartedly in everything that they individually mean.


00:08:12
No, not on the basis of equality or equity, but on the basis of inclusion. So yeah.
Lindsay: Thank you so much for sharing that dream. And it makes me think of a couple questions I think related to one another. So one is, I love that you said you're a values driven leader. And so I'm almost wondering typically the next question I ask is you know, what mind shifts are required? So like we're thinking about someone coming from that traditional, maybe school, like you're saying we want to change from what it has historically been. Are there like mindset shifts that someone has to undergo as they come into your school and have this more like personalized approach to teaching and giving those students that choice? You know, is there something that they undergo? And then I think a related question is or I don't know if this is an and or but do you end up hiring for the values that teachers bring into the school and see if those are truly aligned with how the values that you hold as a school and how you lead?
Bronwyn: We actually put in our jobs advertisement that at the very front, this job is not for everyone and we have to do it through it.

00:09:19
There's a system called recruitment online that my department requires us to advertise all through and after their normal gulf, we put: this position is not for everyone. We are looking for a teacher with the qualities of and usually, you know, we'll list particular qualities because we're not, I don't even want everyone to have the same qualities because, I have a very diverse student cohort and much like a baseball team that's full of pitchers, there's no one to catch the balls or field them more bat. So we need that diversity of strength in order to be able to provide for a diversity of students. And to remind all of us on staff that there are other perspectives as well and an important one.


00:10:22
I think that the biggest mindset shift is to go from closed to open. That's, you know, just that very simple one of, and no, we can't what one incredibly powerful word. I think it's, you know, it's like yet, and sometimes new staff go: What? yet, we can't do that yet. What steps can we put in place in order to make that happen? Because that's what, you know, that's our end goal. But sometimes it is, it can be confusion I think in their minds and just trying to bring it down to concrete ideas that they can relate to. So, an example I was using just in the last term with the staff members, they were feeling really frustrated and we are officially the most lockdown city on the planet,

00:11:28
and in our sixth lockdown. So we've got staff at the moment who are exhausted trying to deliver and not just trying, but delivering personalized, individualized learning, remotely to highly vulnerable young people. And, you know, there's just got to the point where, you know, I can't, and I just said to them : I know what drives you is, at home and it's 20 km away. Yet you ride in a bike here to get here every day. And if I said to you that the bike track was blocked at a particular point, what would you do? And you'd say, well, I'd go around it this way and what if that ways blocked? Well, I'd find another way around because your ultimate goal is to be at home with your children and your wife or your love. And he said, yeah, and I said, well, it's the same thing here.


00:12:32
We don't have to change our goal. We just look and go, oh, there's a barrier, can I get over this or around it? Or do I, you know, reroute completely. So I think that the, that yet is important. How can we not, why can't we? And you know, it doesn't mean everything is always possible. Sometimes it can be, it's like, he was like, yeah, I really still want to do that, but at this point in time, I don't have everything in place to progress it and it just becomes about the low pocket. It doesn't go away. I just park it and approach it as much as I can and then come back to it. You know, never forget about it. Just constantly come back, to have exercise books that just got ideas written on the front of them. And I started those in like the 1980s and I look at them and I see how, okay, so you have done that, we've done that, we've got that grounded.

00:13:46
That's right. We want to do that or you were getting closer to that. But I noticed how my values have never changed over that period. Like they've constantly been, even though I've been in different schools and different systems, even that my values haven't changed. So, but yeah, I think that close to open and add the word 'yet' to most responses that you have.
Lindsay: That's excellent. Yeah, that's excellent. I love that, add the word. 'yet', close to open. I also love, there's so much in what you just shared that. I love your ideas book. I found that I never thought of it like that, but I find little scraps of paper that I had written ideas on and collect them and there's so much value in looking back on them to be able to say "I succeeded in this". And I just think that would be a really cool practice for colleagues and also for students to be able to just have those reflective moments, thinking about specific brave actions that either colleagues could take, leaders could take.


00:14:54
What would you recommend people do as they're kind of working towards this dream that you've described and doing these, you know, shifts from closed to open and using words like 'yet' at the end of responses? What are the specific steps that you would encourage someone listening to this episode, who's like, yeah, I'm ready to start doing that stuff, but I just don't know what it looks like in practice. What would you say to those folks?
Bronwyn: I think that the changes before you say them in practicing what you're doing, they have to be in within yourself, within your own mind, so that it's too hard, has to leave vocabulary. I think that the question becomes more: is this the right thing to do? Yes, then that's what I'm going to do, even though it's hard and to me, I find that it can leave you very much alone, I guess, or by yourself and sometimes you're the one standing there and everyone else is a little bit shy or nervous about coming forward because there is a cost, and everyone is doing it, they have to assess what their cost is.


00:16:22
So the cost for a young teacher maybe, well, you know, I can make these changes in my classroom. I'm not at this point where I'm changing the system, but you're changing everything for those students in your classroom. So you are changing the system and their ability to speak up versus mine, I guess? And I go, is this the right thing to do? And for me, the loss of stepping off that, what's the right thing to do is a greater cost for me personally, because I live with me. So that's a greater cost personally than other things. You know, for others, it may be, well, you know, but this is what I do without this pay and I can't keep arguing this argument and you know, and my principle is never going to change the way they think and those around me aren't as well.


00:17:28
What elements do you have control of? Do you get to choose where you work? Yeah, you do. And do you get to choose whether you're happy or not? Well, if you don't take control of that, nobody else is going to be like, hey, it's my job to make you happy. It's like, it's not, it might be a clown's job to make you laugh but not happy. So those things I think about, you know, going internally before you go externally. And then just the smallest little theme, what's, if people think what's, I can't do all these big grandiose things. Like what's the smallest thing you could change tomorrow morning? Right now that would make that change? Just to start with the tiniest little thing you could do and it might be, notice the kid who doesn't want to be noticed, just hi, how are you?

00:18:37
Just, yeah, it might be Lindsay how's it going? Keep walking, don't wait for a response and just say that over and over and over again and you know, because barriers will take a long time to break down. And speak up in a staff meeting. If that's what you want to do, nod your head in a staff meeting and if you normally sit there and trying to blend into the background. But I think, ask yourself different questions: what, as a teacher who needs your attention most? Who's communicating to you that they need your attention more? And usually that's the young person who is communicating in the most inappropriate way. And then as a principal, I look and I say, okay, so my classes, my staff, I'm responsible for the success and I have this on the wall in my office : I am success...

00:19:46
"I'm responsible for the success of every student in my school". So if someone is not achieving success, then that's on me. So, and I have to analyze the data and it might be, well, it's what approaches are we putting in place to connect with this young person and to connect them to what it is they need? And then I have to step in and provide what it is that's needed to do that. How do we we get in place? So modeling, just constant modeling, but so much has to change. I think that being disruptor take the view from those who serves these students. Do what's right, even when it's hard. And I guess that you know how you practice doing what's right, even when it's hard when you've got a choice between donuts and apples. What's, I really want that one, but I'm gonna take the apple. So but yeah, I think that's the yeah, they're not to me, they're not actions as in, here's a playbook step one, you do this. Step two, you do that.

00:21:11
It's you know, what are your morals? What are your character strengths? What are the ones that you need to build on? what people do you need to draw around you to make sure that you've got a strong team in place. What are you short on? How do you, where do you find what it is that you need to add that? There's no one person can be everything to everyone and you know, it's like I've been at my school for 21 years now and just ticked over, happy birthday. And I guess, you know, I'm going to change the world, change the planet and do all this stuff and it's like, it's not revolution, its evolution, its every step forward. And sometimes it can be a very uncomfortable place to be in being that person and but it comes back to what does my moral compass tell me I must do? Tell me in order for me to be comfortable with me. So, that's, you know, people say : why do you do what you do? It's right thing to do.

00:22:43
So I think I've offered for you Lindsay, sorry about that.
Lindsay: No, that was brilliant, thank you so much. And I'm curious to know, I think one of the things I was really excited about to talk to you. Mitch, who is the person who connected us, has said, oh my gosh, she has so many great stories. She has so many stories of student success or you know, school success. And I think one of the things that I think sometimes as educators and leaders, we often focus on like, what can still change, which is great because we absolutely need to do that., I love that evolution piece that you brought in right, it's one step at a time, we're constantly evolving and changing. Are there some success stories that you would want to share around, like a practice that really had a great impact or just something that kind of fits with the dream that you described in some sort of success towards that dream that you want to share with listeners?
Bronwyn: I think persistence and that on character strengths, which is something that I'd been quite passionate about in positive education for quite a while. As in before I knew that there were things, the persistence is my top character strength and I know that means I will show up and I will keep doing and I'll keep doing it, I will keep doing. But I also have learnt the hard way that my greatest character weakness is persistence because I will keep showing up and I will keep doing and I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing and it's made me unwell in the past.


00:24:25
And so I had to learn about, well you got some other character strengths as well, it's not just about that one, you need to be using the others as well. I am a storyteller because I think people relate well to stories. But the success is for me have, you know, it's not the theory of blah blah blah blah, it's the story of David or the story of Colleen or the story of Matthew. And just knowing what they were, who they were as children when they started with us and then you know, watching them just open up and blossom. So yeah, there's on our school website, there's some stories there. So you know, a young man Matthew who when he commenced with us was very shy. There's a lot of kids that come to us have been really badly bullied and excluded by others and teased constantly,

00:25:44
you know, for their differences and rather than having their uniqueness celebrated, so, you know, he could be lots of what we're seeing with others is that they look to be invisible when they first come in. And so you'll see that there's the cap on and then the hoodie over the top and the heads down and it's just that, you know, giving them the chance to trust you. I don't deserve trust or respect because I'm the school principal or I'm an adult or anything else. I have to earn those things and I have to earn them every day through, you know, fairness and treating each person in the same way, which is not everyone gets treated the same. It's, everyone gets what they need when they want it, when they need it.


00:26:49
So I think that watching them blossom over the years is the, yeah, new staff come in and they'll come in and we've got a whole bunch of Year seven, so Grade 7 to a previously been excluded from attending their primary schools. They weren't allowed in for full days. They would be restricted from the yard because they would behave poorly in the yard and we've taken the view of, well, let's teach them how to behave in the yard and let's spend less time in the classroom and more time on personal social capabilities and get them ready for learning. And the staff in there who were new to the school and they're driving me crazy. It's like why can't we have more kids like those other kids who are up there? Why can't we have more like them? And it's just like, well those kids up there were them 4, 5 years ago.


00:27:54
It's just, you know, it's taken them 12 years to get in this position where they were at, so we can't expect just a magic flick of a magic wand or fairy dust or whatever to change it. And if that is what would change it, then, you know, but you're not responsible for the change. And I just want to present every young person with the the possibility of change when they're ready. And that means over and over and over again. Yeah, lots of funny stories over the years. I think I told Mitch about one was a young man. His name's Robbie and he was tiny tiny. He came from a background of domestic violence and seeing his mum pretty well bashed by numerous significant men in his life.

00:29:00
And he started, he just would hang out with some other kids who were enrolled in the school and he was... think it's great six, five or six. We started just appearing on site. It's like obviously not connected with another school. So, and it was just kind of there and I tried to speak to him and he was just in terror constantly and used to climb up on the building's little monkey climb up the, it's set the roof on the toilet block that was like high edge, but then it was a sunken space and they've got some cushions from hard rubbish or something and put them up there and so when class was on, he'd screwed up there and I didn't even know he was doing this to start with, but he just nestle in to his little cubby until the kids came back out of class again or and go and hide in the corner in the classroom and just let him be leave him be, we know he's there, it's okay, he's safer here. And he, you know, slowly connected in and rather than me try and speak with him, I'd just say to the kids just can you get him get him to get off the roof.

00:30:30
Do that, can we check that? He's not, you know, he's not about to set fire to that, those cushions up there because he's smoking up on top. And then, you know, he came down and he could see him and you know, the first time you see him smile, it just, it just hits you. It's just like, wow, that's such an open beautiful face. And then he became this, you know, the kid that doesn't know their leader, but everybody follows them. He had this little bunch of kids following him everywhere around and they were allowed up the street, this is a long time ago they were allowed up the street at recess to get something and they... I used to go up every morning and buy chocolate milk in the cardboard containers. And there was a younger student who would follow him, meet him at the gate every morning, coming back in and hi Robbie, can I have some of the milk and have some of your milk and just ignore him.

00:31:32
And then one day he, you know, decided he'd give it to him, give him some but he's picked up an old nail and put it on the in the container just as a, you know, like a joke or whatever. As soon as you rattle that you knew something was in there. But he kept talking while he was while he was walking and then he put the container on the ground and he stomped it to flatten it and managed to drive the nail right through his foot, his own foot and pin the container to his foot. And all I could hear was this screaming and then go outside and someone's trying to pull the container off his foot and he just scooped him up and took him into first aid because he was so tiny and just put his foot on my shoulder while we culture an ambulance because we couldn't transport him and hit his foot from him but just you know, and he was a daily user of marijuana.

00:32:46
So you know just talking to him and ambulance arrive and they come with the magic green sticks, do you have those in America?
Lindsay: I don't think so, I don't know.
Bronwyn: They're whistles that have painkiller in them. So they tell you to breathe on them. And some people, very funny blue beads. So anyhow he was only taking short breaths in on it and the the ambulance officer kept saying to him, you need to take deep breaths, you need to take deep breaths. And I said to him like you do with your bong and the ambos looked at me and was like just ignore it just and he went Robby went and took a big breath in and just you know it's just that you've got to say or provide what the right thing is at the right time, not condoning him smoking marijuana and I but for him in his language in his world that made sense.


00:33:49
So you know he managed to miss everything important all bongs and stuff. They just pulled the nail out of his foot. He turned up to school the next day with the same pair of shoes on, the same sock on, with the same blood on it from the day before and just came into the office and said, "did we have some tape so that we could tape around?". "So how about we take you up the street and find you a new pair of shoes." But then he, you know, you can see the family connections. He want to ring his mom every recess time and every lunch and so just come in and we'll let him do that. He'd always finish off with "love your mom". And, so, but I'd love to know what he's doing now. I don't know. I know he, you know, he finished up when he graduated from us, he was a very different young man than when he started. And I think the biggest thing was that when he left us, he had hope. When he started, he didn't.


00:34:54
So yeah, but I think that's probably the thank you. They didn't have hope for themselves and that they leave with it. That's would be a constant strings through the stories I think.
Lindsay: And such a powerful emotion to feel. I don't know if it's an emotion, if that's the right word. But you know, such a powerful thing to experience right? Hope. And when you're feeling hopeless, you're a very different person, right? And you experience the world very differently. So that's really positive, wow, Thank you.
Bronwyn: That's really tiny little things like I said to you that, you know, the cap and the body and then you have, you know, you have an open day and the kid who has not spoken to you, even though you've said hello to him every morning since he started, and then you hear him as he walks past and he's with a mate from out-of-school and he says, you know, I've said "hello" as usual. And he said "Bronwyn," It's the first time he said it to me and I kind of stumbled and I was like, "yes?".

00:36:04
And he said, "that's my principal's first name basis.". And you just laugh at those little things that, you know in their own time.
Lindsay: That's great. Yeah.
Bronwyn: They bring joy.
Lindsay: Excellent. I love it. Thank you so much for reminding us about that joy, right? Things can feel hard in the moment and and often do. But that importance of finding that joy and remembering and holding onto that joy is so important. Thank you. I think you've shared so much great stuff with us today. If you were to just tell folks who are kind of closing up the episode, really inspired to go about their days about their work. What is one starting point for people who are trying to inspire hope in students and trying to lead in the way that you've described throughout the episode? Where do you think that first step lies
Bronwyn: Gratitude. You know, what are you looking forward to most today? What are you you grateful for? What's the, you know, it might be the smallest, smallest thing, but that gratitude.

00:37:13
So what are you grateful for? I sit here and I'm grateful. That is the sun is just looking, so it's probably cold outside, but the sun is just so beautiful streaming in it And you know, the bark you heard before I'm grateful. I've got my dog, she's 15.5 years old. I'm grateful that I have my job. I'm grateful for the people I get to work with. I'm looking forward to, even though it's my vacation, I'm looking forward to doing some work planning for the students that I'm working with at the moment. I've, but you know, I'm, you know, what do you need? I think that is what needs to happen. It's got me back teaching in the classroom two days a week at the moment with kids who live in and out of home care and loving it.

00:38:19
But yeah, great gratitude. I think it's a great place to start.
Lindsay: That's amazing. Thank you. And I think this question that I usually ask as kind of one of the closing questions is really just for fun, we always kind of see educators and leaders as like kind of these self described lifelong learners. They're constantly learning and growing and evolving to your word that you mentioned. And so I'm just curious to know what's something that you have been learning about lately.
Bronwyn: The Wellbeing Lab. Spent time, we're working in The Wellbeing Lab, Michelle McQuaid and Positive Education, the PERMA Model, so Martin Seligman, those kinds of things and I think it's, I think the biggest learning for me and it was that it's the way I lived, it's the way I've always lived. It's the thing, I thought I'd, I knew a lot about and in making myself vulnerable to maybe you don't know everything about that,

00:39:24
I've learned a lot more.
So, you know, sometimes it's, Oh yeah, you used to do that because why did you stop? I don't know. Start doing that again. And so I don't think it always has to be new learning. It can be going back and consolidating what you've learned previously. But yeah, I think I look at, people are trying to come up with the new big best thing and I don't think the answers in the future. I actually think the answer is in reflecting backwards and doing what we've known, doing what we do know. Socrates ran Socratic circles like, but it's not new learning. That's a good way to learn. You know Ken Robinson wandered around the world for a couple of decades saying, "this is what we should do.", with huge crowds going, "yeah, this is what we should do.", but and put it into action.


00:40:35
You know, the people, teachers sit in staff meetings going, I hate it when they were not asked what we want to learn, you know, what we're doing and why we're doing this sheet at this professional learning day. And, but then they completely forget about that when they walk to their class and go "turn to page 65.". And so it's like people say it's not new learning, it's just it's not even new thinking, it's just new acting. That's why I think it's the change has to come from going within. And if when you go within, you find that your motivator is making yourself bigger better whatever, and please get out of public education and go and do something in private industry because, public education is the place of people who serve.
Lindsay: That's so powerful.

00:41:38
Those reflective kind of moments of pause are things that I think often we skip over because we don't have time or you know, whatever. And they're so important and they're the critical moments where we're going to make a decision about what we're teaching tomorrow, or pausing to think what is most important? It is actually acknowledging that student who hasn't been acknowledged by anyone yet, not getting through page 65 today in the lesson book. So I really appreciate you naming that.
Bronwyn: Pleasure Lindsay. I think that what am I going to teach tomorrow should be replaced with, Why am I going to teach that tomorrow?
Lindsay: Yeah, that's a great question.
Bronwyn: That's the Big one. May be more like a three year old. Why? Why?
Lindsay: I love it. And finally, where can listeners learn more about you or connect with you online or learn more about your school?
Bronwyn: the school is online at croydon c s, I think it is dot vic and dot e d u dot au, If I've got that wrong, it's croydon dot cs.
Lindsay: I can find it and link to it in the show notes.

00:42:51
Bronwyn: I'm on LinkedIn, but I'm actually quite a private person. So the city at the beginning, this is the first podcast I've done. So I'm not a big one about pushing myself forward. I'm not in a lot of places and I think I just have always done what is right in my little patch, what I believe is right in my little patch. And probably only now in my early 60s, starting to speak up and take those opportunities to believe that maybe stuff I have to say and stuff I know is interesting or of importance or value to others because I just have, I think trotted through most of my professional career thinking, why doesn't everybody just know this, but not being a big one on self promotion.

00:43:54
Lindsay: Well, I'm so glad that you agreed to come on to the podcast and that you agreed to share all your wisdom because I think it's incredibly valuable and I know our listeners will feel the same. So Bronwyn, thank you so much for coming on today.
Bronwyn: Pleasure Lindsay. Thanks for the invite. Thanks Mitch for the connect.
Lindsay: Yeah.

Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Links Mentioned in the Episode: 

• Croydon's school website
• Bronwyn's LinkedIn

​
​Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

Lindsay Lyons: Today, I'm joined by Julie Kratz on the podcast. For context, this was recorded August 11th of 2021. Now, let me tell you about Julie. she is a highly acclaimed TEDx speaker and inclusive leadership trainer who lead teams and produce results in Corporate America. After experiencing many career pivot points of her own, she started her own speaking business with the goal of helping leaders be more inclusive, promoting diversity, inclusion and allyship in the workplace. Julie helps organizations foster more inclusive environments. She's a frequent keynote speaker, podcast host and executive coach.
She holds an M. B. A. from the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. She is a certified master coach and is a certified unconscious bias trainer. Her books include Pivot Point: How to Build a Winning Career Game Plan, ONE : How Male Allies Support Women for Gender Equality, and Lead Like an Ally : A Journey Through Corporate America with Strategies to Facilitate Inclusion. Her new children's book is called Little Allies. You can find Julie at nextpivotpoint.com, @nextpivotpoint on social or on LinkedIn. Let's go ahead and hear from Julie Kratz.

00:01:11
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about schoolwide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Lindsay Lyons: Okay. Julie Kratz, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Julie Kratz: Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited for this conversation. Do you want to add anything, before we get started, to the professional bio section that I've just read.
Julie Kratz: Oh my gosh.

00:02:15
Yeah, that's all the fancy credentials and all that fun stuff and books. But I think more central to me and my life for this work is that we've just got to make this a better place for this next generation of little allies. I really feel really strongly that after speaking in Corporate America for many, many years and experiencing it myself. You know, trying to change behavior later in life is kind of difficult versus not impossible, but a little more difficult than if we started a little earlier and just set the tone right out of the get go. So that's been a big realization for me in this work and a real source of passion as well.
Lindsay Lyons: That is awesome and so true. I think I also came to the work that I do in education the same way where I was into like adult spaces and my undergraduate degree was in gender women studies and I was like, all right, how do we do gender equity and all this stuff? And I was like, we need to start super early. Like I need to stop working with adults and like start with kids. So that's awesome that we have that similar kind of realization.


00:03:19
One of the things I love to know just right off the top is what your idea of education or your dream for education is. And I pulled from Dr Bettina Love who describes freedom dreaming as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, to kind of think about really relevant to the work you're doing, what that dream could hold in terms of justice work.
Julie Kratz: Yeah. Such a great question. And you know, I like to dream big. I think about, you know, this next generation. I mean, let's be honest about the problems that they're facing were centuries away from real equity, real equality, whether that's gender or race or any of these social constructs. And to me that means like that happening sooner. Like my dream is like my daughter shouldn't have to wait 200 plus years for gender equality. And really thinking about all humans, especially as children not being treated differently based on differences they can't control, you know. No one can control their biological sex or you know how they even identify with gender.


00:04:29
You know, a lot of this we've realized is very innate or obviously skin color should not change your lived experiences. So my dream for this next generation of little allies is that they find a way to accelerate social change. And let's be honest, adults need to be a part of dismantling these systems that don't work. They don't work if they don't work for some. They don't work for all whether that's education, politics, like all of these constructs that we have just want these little kiddos to have a more accelerated path to positive social change.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that and I think so many times kids have better answers than adults have, particularly when it's creative thinking and like how do we do something different than we've always done it and just giving them space to play with that. And like you said, accelerate that path I think is not only possible, but probably our best shot.
Julie Kratz: Oh for sure. You know, I joke like when I wrote the children's book, I thought, well, I don't have necessarily that obviously magic bullet. There is no magic bullet solution to this problem, but I really struggled to have this conversation with my kids about, you know, diversity, inclusion, social justice and I'm like, if I'm struggling with this and I do this for a living, like certainly there's a lot of caregivers out there that probably struggle with us and parents and educators. And the secret to it has been, as I have shared the book and read the book with kids, really do to your point have way better insights, like way better insights, way better questions.


00:06:07
So actually the secret to it is you have this tool to start the conversation and you're going to be schooled by your kid. It's not the other way around.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that and I think you are speaking to, in that response to, kind of the almost mindset shifts that we really need people to go through in terms of adults who are interacting with children and being able to have the critical conversations and being able to have conversations both with adults and children, you know, and people who work with children. And so I'm wondering, either what helped you to kind of have those conversations and be able to be in that space or what has been helpful to you as you work with adults or children to help people kind of get into that mindset of like we should be having this conversation and I can do this and here's how I guess...
Julie Kratz: Yeah, well, you know, this all started, so seven years ago I started my business focus on diversity and inclusion training in the corporate space. And then about two years ago I ran into another D. I. practitioner and you know, we connected on LinkedIn, we had a chat over the phone and her name is Simone. And I just like kind of connected in a way and it was through the story about her daughter and she shared a really painful story about her daughter.


00:07:22
It was the time like three in preschool and some kid went up to her and was like, you don't belong here. And they impacted. It was about race, you know, nine times out of ten these situations, not always about race, but usually. And our daughter is black and you know, they had to have this whole conversation with the school and she ended up changing schools and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is absolutely unacceptable. And so it really started this catalyst for the our Inclusion School Podcast that we now interview experts on this subject and that's how we've learned just out of curiosity about it. And I think that's what really I've discovered through all the interviews and all the people we've talked to, in books that we've read, is that curiosity is so important as a parent, as a caregiver, as an adult. Your brain stops being curious as we get older. We think we have all the answers. We've been there, done that and that's what's so beautiful about children is they're curious about differences. They do see differences. The thing that we always talk about is, it's okay to see the difference is. Absolutely you see them, but it's not okay to treat people differently based on those differences. And that's really I think also understanding that bias starts early. Our brains are wired for bias and so much of it is cemented by age 12.


00:08:41
So yeah, we're talking later in life. It's like, well good, good luck. You know, all that hard wiring sitting there and it's hard to undo. But kids start to see differences as early as like six months. They prefer caregivers that have the same skin color to them at that age and then like 2-4, these biases start forming. So if we're not careful, we don't have these conversations, we don't equip them with tools and information, you know, they're going to repeat the mistakes of the past. They're basically absorbing the same images and media. They're consuming the same programming from a gender construct and racial construct lens. They're getting this all through their environment and they need tools. They need information. They need books. They need stories. They need conversations to help them be more inclusive and unfortunately doesn't happen naturally.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. And I love that you're speaking to what those tools might be and the fact that stories can be a tool and you wrote the book, Little Allies, which is awesome. I watched a video of you reading it, which I think people can see on your website, just so great.


00:09:46
I'm curious to know, I don't know if you want to talk about that book or other tools or techniques that you use when working with youth or when talking to adults about how to work with youth. But I'm curious to know what the actions are that people can take to really have those conversations and facilitate those conversations in a way that is generative, that provokes curiosity that keeps people in that space.
Julie Kratz: Yeah, conversation tracks who, you know what we try to do is notice differences. So we were at the pool or the playground or the skating rink, you know, just saying, hey, I noticed that we were some of the only white people there, which by the way, doesn't happen very often. But the skating rink is an example of when that happened. Did you notice that? It's like, yeah, it's no big deal mom. And I was like, oh, okay. And like sometimes it's the shortest conversation, or you know, at the pool. We have a kid in our neighborhood with special needs and you know, we just talked about openly about, hey, did you notice I really like how you played with him?

00:10:49
Did you notice, that he communicated a little bit differently? And she's like, yeah, well his brain is just different. That's okay. He just recognized red of the get go. I was like, I really love that you we're really inclusive and we use that language inclusive with him. It's like, yeah, of course mom. I'm gonna be nice to everybody. I'm not going to do things differently. So it just is acknowledging that and I'm by no means a perfect parent. She's by no means a perfect kid. Like we have issues. But I think recognizing differences when you see them acknowledging, recognizing positive experiences with differences and just helping make sure that you know, you're a safe place where she can come and share things because microaggressions like the subtle little signals, people don't belong happened. They start happening early, sometimes sort of like quite frankly, just aggressions. But my daughter had a situation on the school bus not too long ago where a little girl came up to her and said that the boy that she liked, she has first grade crush that for what that's worth. The boy that she likes.

00:11:52
This girl said she couldn't be with him because it was illegal. Kid just happens to be a kid of color, which probably why she said that, right? And so in the moment, you know, because we've had these conversations, my daughter knew to say to her, I think that's racism. That's what she said. And then she came home and told me that I'm like, I think racism happened today and she told me the story and you know, sometimes I told her it's not always about race, but in that situation, I think it probably was. And she's like, yeah, it was because of his skin color. Like that's just not okay. And the last thing I'll say is kids pick up on the conversations you're having with other people. Right? So we went on this long family vacation this summer. And as I'm talking, you know, catching up with a bunch of friends and family as we kind of do this tour, you know. James sits with us and kind of listens in. He jumps to the conversation and there was several times we brought up the school bus story and she really saw it as like, oh like this is like important, so important that my mom's gonna bring it up, right? And talk about it and unpack it and Jane kind of got to be not the savior, not the star of the story, but like I think she got to be recognized in a way that affirmed her in front of others too.


00:13:04
So then she saw, oh, this is important. This is something we do. Last like tangible things I'd share is just really pay attention to the consumption of media with your kids. There's a lot of problematic movies and Youtube channels out there and again starts early. I was shocked to find some of the stuff that my daughter was watching and I don't watch everything. I'm pretty hands off parent. But I am a believer in being intentional with the movies that there is diverse representation that women have speaking roles. 72% of films, male speaking role. It's just unfortunate and there's some really good ones out there. They're doing such a better job. You know, the Little Mermaid vs Moana, a drastic difference in representation race, gender just way better. The later films, so pay attention that in your bookshelf. I was shocked to take a hard look at my kids bookshop and be like a lot of white characters, a lot of animals, not a lot of kids of color.


00:14:07
And the kids of color books are usually centered on hard issues. They're rarely just a story that a kid enjoys. So you know, it's great to buy the book like be an anti-racist or differences are appreciated when there's like these really nice titles that I think adults. Get titles that your kids would like that just happened to center kids of color, kids with disabilities, kids that are gender fluid, like whatever aspect of it weave those dimensions into it. And look at your bookshelf and I tossed a few books and consciously adding a few each month. There's no perfect book, but there's some really good ones out there.
Lindsay Lyons: I love those recommendations for parents and caretakers and also for teachers. Right? When you look at your school library or your classroom library and thinking about the books that you're offering to kids during free reading time or the books you're reading as a whole class. I think there's often kind of reluctant to let go of a book that you already have curriculum for and you already have all these lessons, but it is so critically important to be able to ask those questions about who was represented, who is centered, who was de-centered and marginalized.


00:15:12
And I love that everything you said is relevant for anyone working with young people in whatever role that is. And so I really appreciate just all of the identities that you specifically named. And then also talking about the variety of media that maybe as a caretaker or a teacher, we don't actively see them engaging with it, but it's there. And so I almost think I take the stance of trying to balance that scale and so tipping just completely to the other end of what's typically not represented in mainstream media. And I'm just going to do all of that because they're going to get these mainstream representation in other places.
Julie Kratz: Yeah, they're going to see all those images. Don't worry. They'll see whiteness, right? I will see saviorism, they will see all these problematic things. Don't worry, they're not going to miss that message. But what if they had a more balanced message, right? And I try to talk about that too. If you see the Save the Day, you know, White Knight type of situation that happens all too often in older films and fairy tales. You know, we talk about that and why that's problematic. Like it's not that we're going to like hide the stories, right?

00:16:15
But you raise a really good point. I think just to be conscious of all those dimensions of diversity and just weave them in. You know, you don't have to have this overt conversation about racism or sexism with kids. And I think that's the fear factor with parents and caregivers like, oh, shoot, I'm not opening that can of worms and probably the biggest pushback that I get for this messages. We want to protect our children, right? If I talk to them about racism, I might actually make them racist, which there is absolutely no evidence to support that. That's true. That's just your fear talking and we fear what we don't understand that if you don't understand racism, you're probably not gonna want to talk to your kids about racism. And isn't that a huge sign of your privilege that you don't have to have that conversation, compare notes for a second with a person of color. They don't have that choice. It's life or death for them not talking to them, especially black boys about policing. You know, putting your son's life at risk as a white parent, you don't have to do that. Like that's that makes life a lot easier, right?


00:17:20
And so I think if you just acknowledge like, I might not have to do some of these hard things. Like maybe this conversation is something that might be helpful, I promise you on the other side of it. Like you just, I know for me and by no means perfect. But I just found myself to be a better parent, a better human. Like you've just been all overall, It's just really helped me have more depth and more meaningful conversations with people and just like an overall appreciation for life to have this conversation, especially with kids because they do say the darndest things. It's just I find it to be totally fascinating personally.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, that's such a great point. And I'm thinking too about how the example you shared about your daughter really stepping into what I might call like an Ally role right? In that moment like being able to say like, this is wrong. And yes, in that story, like it impacted kind of her in a way, but like she wasn't really the center of the story necessarily and still being able to step in and be like, no, that is racism and I'm going to call that out, you know, at a very young age and I think that's really powerful and a lot of your work.


00:18:29
I think you published a book on this right? Lead Like an Ally and allyship being really important. Do you have any thoughts for folks who are trying to step into that active allyship role not being, you know, performative ally, but like an actual, you know, co- conspirator ally, whatever language you want to use. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Julie Kratz: Yes, the performance of ally? Just for listeners, just to get clarity on that term. If you haven't heard it before, it's like sitting on the sidelines. It's like I'm gonna read my book, listen to my podcast check. You know, and the white people love to do this. I mean look at the activity around Black Lives Matter a year ago versus now. I mean, come on, very frustrating how short term minded we are. But and I think that's the hesitance of people of color to really trust people in this conversation because they've seen a lot of that sitting on the sideline behavior and again, that's your privilege. You don't have to stay in this day in and day out. Your life is not going to fundamentally change either way. I would argue. It probably would, but you might not see it that way. And that performance of an ally isn't doing the hard work, isn't actively using their voice.

00:19:32
And what an active ally does, which is really different, is they don't center themselves. So being an ally is not about you. It's let go of your ego, It's not about you. There's no rescue cape needed. It's more about putting yourself in an uncomfortable position a lot of times, just use your voice. I'm just like, you know, calling out, I think that feels like racism or like even just my musical terms like that. But like what did you mean when you said that? Like that didn't sit well with me, right? I'm calling out those microaggressions for other people and not standing by and letting bad things happen on your watch because it's just not okay as an ally. And other things active allies do that are different from a child's perspective, I think it's really important that they diversify who they spend time with, right? You're taking inventory of your network, taking inventory of your kid's friend network. You know, how many diverse kids, with diverse backgrounds are they spending time with that? Would you know, who are you having inviting into your home? Who are you spending time with and exposing your kids to? It says a lot about your values and what's really valued and active allies amplify the voices of others.

​
00:20:40
This is works for adults, but certainly for kids. You know, the kids getting picked on, bullying of course was a huge issue. And in a way you can be an active ally, but also a quiet ally. Let's just go sit with that kid. You know, I, we talked about that as like, just go over and sit with them so they're not alone, right? You don't have to be like, do do do, I'm going to save the day and how you're treating him. It's not okay, not on my watch. Like nobody wants that. That's like, makes it all about you and not the person actually needs the support and that's not sustainable. But being with somebody, showing them that you see them and as children, I mean this is where it really strikes an emotional chord with me. Like every child deserves to feel, seen, heard and belong. Like no child should not feel those things, especially based on moments, they can't control their skin color or what country they were born into. Like that's no one gets to control those things. So why should someone be treated differently based on those things? And if you can help kids, all kids feel seeing her can belong as an ally, I just don't think there's anything more important to our humanity, honestly.


00:21:48
Lindsay Lyons: Yes, and it reminds me of, like this is one of the things that I think is critically important when we're measuring success of the school. Things like belonging or do children feel like they have a voice? Are they taken seriously by adults or they taken seriously by other kids? Like do they matter? And I know that you've talked a little bit about you know, measurement and how do we measure D. I. And you know, maybe that from a corporate perspective, I'm not sure, but what do you think about in terms of an education space or even the corporate space in terms of what we measure influencing, you know, our actions or what is important to measure in this space.
Julie Kratz: That's so good. Most of my work is still on the corporate side. That is what pays the bills. This is like my passion project. So I know I'll start with corporate and then like we can maybe brainstorm a little bit because I'd love your input on the education side. But you know, representation numbers, that's the obvious one, right? Like you want to measure what matters. And so for my corporate clients, like I was like so they're like diversity and inclusion is very important to us.


00:22:49
We did this corporate statement and we have this thing that sits on the shelf and you know, they have all the boxes checked and I'm like so how are you measuring it? Oh wow. It's really hard for us to measure just like all these excuses and like, no, pull your H.R. data. That is not hard to measure. You've got it, you just don't like it so you don't want to share it. And you know, anything that's important to measure in business... I always joke like it's not important if you're not measuring it. So representation numbers out of minimum, those are usually race and gender. Sometimes you can measure sexual orientation, but you know, 50% of people are closeted in the workplace. So that's a rough one, disabilities, you know, whatever your dimensions you want to really prioritize. And don't just measure it like blanket for the whole organization or you know, in this case of school. You want to see it like by level, right? And so in the corporate environment especially, it's like frontlines, diverse and then like suddenly it stops. She worked her way into the top. So like you want to do that. I think in a school system that would parlay into your employees, right? Your staff as well as your children and different grade levels would probably be helpful to know.

00:23:52
And that of the minimum and then I think you raise a much better point though about, that's diversity. Diversity is representation. Inclusion is a behavior. So you want to measure behaviors and perceptions of behaviors too. So like just like you just said, it would be really fun to do some pulse surveys. I don't know how you do this with kids or you know the faculty or you know, whoever got involved. But do I feel like I have a voice? Is my voice heard? Do I feel like I belong here? Am I judged differently based on my differences? You know, just asking some standard questions and getting real data on that, measuring it over time and making sure it's going in the right direction.
You know, the last thing I'll say with scorecards and measurement is it can create, if it's not done well, it can create a zero sum game. Well great, now we just care about diversity. So I'm the white guy and I don't matter. No, of course the world is built for you. Like don't worry, it's not changing overnight. You're still good. But I think you have to frame it as we want to get better. Not like an affirmative action type of situation where we have to get X by this date. I do like goals,

00:24:54
but I think sometimes when we set really bold goals, it can create an infighting amongst people. And you already get it. In my community, we have this, I'm just gonna say, problematic parents that are very against diversity training, diversity in our schools. And that's because I think that, you know, they're all white, and they're mostly mother, mostly women. But a lot of men too,, that see it as like I'm gonna lose something. My kids gonna have something to lose from this conversation. We can't have that happen. It has to be about all people feeling, seen, heard, and belong, and race in general. Part of that, but it's really about all human beings. Again, feeling those things. So I think the balance of representation data and then making sure you have perception data around behavior too is important.
Lindsay Lyons: And I think that mirrors a lot of what's happening in the education space is as well. Looking at particularly nationally, now our student body as the United States nation has, I think hit if not surpassed the point where white students are now less than 50% or approaching that.

00:26:00
And the teaching staff is predominantly white women still like overwhelmingly so like, you know, 80 something percent, 90%. And so just that representation too. And like you're saying not just looking at the staff, but looking at, you know, the staff and who they're teaching and can students see themselves reflected in the staff. And the teaching staff, like you said at each level, so not just, you know, who drives my bus or who is the attendant worker, but like who is my teacher, who was my principal, who is my superintendent, you know, at all levels, we need to see that representation.
And then just a quick note on, for any listeners who are interested in those measurements, things, I love that you brought that up. Like how do we do that in terms of belonging. So I have a student voice survey that I developed for my dissertation, which I've shared as a preview before. So I can drop that link in the show notes. But also Panorama is a wonderful educational company that has surveys on their website that you can take and use for free that measure things like belonging. I think they have a whole D and I series where there's like several sub scales there. And so their stuff is excellent as well.

00:27:04
But there's so much cool movement in that direction. I think about measuring voice and belonging for students, that's really exciting to me.
Julie Kratz: I'm visiting their website just after we speak. I'll be checking them out. That's super cool. I didn't even know about that. And I love that you have a survey too. I have to be sure to share that with their inclusion school listeners. That's awesome.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. I'll definitely share that with you. as we're kind of like wrapping up thinking about how people are going to take action and we're listing all these techniques and tools that they can use, what is maybe one thing that you would encourage the listener to do after they end this episode they go live their life and really try to bring out the value of justice and in working with youth and just being themselves in the world. What's one thing you would recommend that they do as a kind of a starting point.
Julie Kratz: Do something. And I know that sounds super simple. But again, this performative allyship behavior like sitting on the sidelines, this huge problem, especially if you're in the majority group. You know, especially if you're white, especially if you're able bodied, especially if you're straight this gender a man, you know, like your voice is so important.

00:28:13
And I think people get lost in this. Like I'm just one person. How can I influence this massive problem, right? And honestly keeps me up at night. Just do something. Take one step, a baby step, right? Read a book with your kids that have diverse characters. You know, there's actually more animals in children's books than kids of color. So like this is a real problem. In your bookshelf, probably doesn't look a lot different than mine did several years ago. There's no shame in that, but you can get better. Watch a film, a documentary, you know, depending on your kids' ages, for really young adults. you could have some really meaty conversations with your kids about this stuff and their perceptions, and you again, we'll probably learn way more from them than they will from you, keep your ears open.
But take one step, one step and stay on the journey. And I always talk about allyship is a journey. It is not a destination. There are no perfect allies. There's a lot of bumbling and stumbling along the way. I screw stuff up on a daily basis and that's because I'm learning and unlearning things. And unfortunately we live in a world where we're taught a version of history in society that's just not frankly true.

00:29:21
It's very painful to unpack that, but stay on the journey because your voice does matter and at that, there's no end or rainbow at the end. There is like just recognition of again, being better, getting better. And being more inclusive is just it improves you just doesn't overall human.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that recommendation. And actually I love that you also mentioned that we are constantly learning and growing ourselves right? There is no kind of endpoint. We're not just perfect. And so as you think about things that you have been learning lately, it could be related to what we've been talking about. It could be anything. What is something that you have been learning about lately?
Julie Kratz: Oh my gosh. I just watched a documentary. Speaking of documentaries, this is probably more for older kiddos. Like my daughter is not ready for this one, but this changes everything. It's about gender representation and film. Gina Davis has an institute for gender representation and what I loved about the documentary is a lot of times white women come in and make it all about white women, but it actually had a really good diverse representation of women of color and they talked about Shonda Rhimes and Frozen and you know, just some of the wins and some of the wins that we've had in the in the industry.


00:30:33
But also you know, it's funny that over time we're like okay, this movie came out, it changes everything, you know. And how many times that one silver bullet does not and how it's a continued effort over time. So the title in itself is just kind of a play on the fact that no, things are not changing that quickly and they have tons of data. So if you like data, tons of data, at a minimum, you know, watch it with your partner. If you have kiddos that are, I would say, 12+ and just ask like: What did you see? What did you learn? Because I live in this space that I learned a ton about that through that documentary. So that's something that I've learned about recently.
And then I would also say there's increasingly a lot of young adult books about diversity. So Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man was an adult book, but then was rewritten for young adults called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy. I read both of them and I was like, huh? You know, I could just see how the messages were more simple and relevant for the young adult, but same content, a lot of the same stories.

00:31:34
So you could read that like with your young adult, you know, compare notes and like, what did you learn? What did you see? Like what was hard for you? It was something you're taking away and just those conversations again over time, I find to be just so helpful. So yeah, stay on the journey. It's definitely a tenuous journey, but one worthwhile.
Lindsay Lyons: Those are excellent recommendations, I need to watch. This changes everything now because that sounds like my kind of documentary. Finally, where can listeners learn more about you, connect with you online, grab, listen to your podcast, any of that stuff.
Julie Kratz: Yeah. Yeah. So we've got two websites. So if you're interested in the conversation with kiddos, the Little Allies. So thelittleallies.com. We've got a downloadable discussion guide and Ally Promise. That's something I'm really proud about, just going through the promise and your kid can sign the certificate. It's a really cute conversation started to. And then of course you can order the book. 100% of online proceeds are going towards nonprofit and organizations doing this work.

00:32:37
So this is a passion project. You don't make a lot of money off Amazon sales. With the money we do make, we are funneling right back into the community. And then from a corporate space if you're interested in corporate stuff : nextpivotpoint.com. There again, you'll find tons of free resources and guides on, you know, we talked about like the diversity dictionary, you know. So if you want to get more education yourself before talking with your kids about this, I would recommend going there as well.
Lindsay Lyons: Amazing. Julie Kratz, thank you so much for being on the show.
Julie Kratz: Thanks, Lindsay. This is awesome.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time, leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
​

Other resources mentioned in the episode: 

• Lindsay's Student Voice Survey
• Julie's Resources List for Antiracists and Developing Allies 
• Julie can be found on: www.thelittleallies.com and www.nextpivotpoint.com 

​

​Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

​Today, I get to talk with Nathaniel A. Turner. For context, this episode was recorded on September 21st of 2021. So let me tell you a little bit about Nathanial Turner. He's an entrepreneur, renowned speaker, author, philanthropist and leading parental empowerment activist. The human propulsion engineer is the author of multiple books including Journey Forward : How to Use Journaling to Envision and Manifest the Life You Always Wanted, The Amazing World of STEM, Raising Superman, Stop The Bus: Education Reform in 31 Days and It's a Jungle Out There : Powerful Parenting Lessons Inspired by the Lion King. Turner appears regularly in numerous national media outlets. The TED talk speaker strives daily to change the world. He wants to make the world a place where race, ethnicity and socioeconomic status no longer dictate the writing of anyone's destiny. Nate happily shares his template for living our best life, including being intellectually ambitious, globally and culturally competent and humanitarian driven. So let's get right to it.

00:01:11
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school-wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.
Nathanial Turner, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
I'm really excited that you're here and I would love to just invite you to share. I know we read your professional bio at the start of the episode.

00:02:13
Is there anything else that we should know about you that listeners should understand in terms of who you are and the conversation you're bringing today to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Cool. So the that you just used the word "who" and I would say that the thing that I like people to know about me, but not so much about me about themselves is that I believe that the most important word in all the human languages, the word "who". And I believe that, because "who" is what will show up on your obituary, "who" will show up on your eulogy and "who" will show up on your tombstone or wherever it does, there's some remembrance of your life. And so I encourage folks because I'm encouraged to do this every day to be led by my "who". And how I do that is I ask myself daily: who did you help, who did you serve and who knew their life matter because of an interaction with you. So that's my one word : "who".
That is a fantastic way to introduce yourself. Wow and so much wisdom right off the bat. So thank you for that.

00:03:15
I'm curious to know, I love Dr. Bettina Love's work and she talks about freedom dreaming and she describes them as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind, thinking about freedom dreaming through that lens, thinking about, you know, what education could be, what is the dream that you hold for education or you know, the family role in education? However you kind of concede with that question.
Sure. So I'll see if I can answer each aspect. So what do I expect? What would that my dream for parents and that parents would actually be what educators proclaimed parents are, which is that their children's first teacher. And so I would, I dream of a day when parents are actually prepared from conception to be their child's teacher from conception through college graduation. That doesn't do very much. So what would that look like? It would look a little bit like Lamaze would look like Lamaze for parents where parents were being trained and coached along the way so that they did every step of a child's life.

00:04:19
They were more than adequately prepared. So, hey, I'm getting ready to have a baby? Well what should I be doing to make sure my child succeeds academically in the future. Oh, I should be reading to the baby in the womb. Oh, I should dance with the baby as soon as the baby is here. I should play language tapes or in the crib. But there what kind of I should eat a certain kind of food and I just serve a certain amount. I should read all the classics with my baby when they're small and we should continue to read those classics that will show up on an S. A. T. Or A. C. T. Test or whatever down the road. So that's right. That's one of the things. Or their parents understand that there is no work life balance and that these offsprings that they brought to the planet, they deserve their undivided attention as much as possible and that they have to be focused on that more so than their own career. So that's one aspect. What I hope for students? I'd like for students to actually have a process to be successful. Most children that I meet,

00:05:19
most students don't know how to succeed at school. I was one of those kids. So an interesting story with my son. When he returned from Brazil and decided to apply for college, he applied for 31 America's top engineering schools and was accepted to 27 of them, had more scholarship money than most schools most graduating classes get on their own. But when he started his freshman semester, freshman quarter, he was like three weeks in and he sent us a Google hangout message and said, "I can't do this, I don't think I could be an engineer." Because what had happened? He lived in Brazil, played soccer, been away from being a student for a while and suddenly was getting ready to be an engineer. And the process of being an engineer was so much different than the process of just being in high school. So what we realized is that he needed a system so that he could be successful. So I said, "hey man, if we can just get through this one, this one quarter. Hang in there. When you come home, I promise you we'll create a system".

00:06:24
And we did, we create a system of 20 things he would do every day, seven things he would do each week, three things or four things he would do each quarter or semester. He does that stuff even today. The subsequent semesters, or quarters afterwards, he never earned less than a 370 and he worked on 3 degrees and got into seven PhD offers directly from undergrad. But it wasn't because he was bright. It was because you had a system, we call it the Academic Success System or we tell people to lead with your ass. So, that's what I would hope. I would hope, we would give students tools, techniques and strategies so that they could be prepared. And then the last part is I would like schools to be places of mastery rather than places of a grade point averages and test scores. I liked it if a child was a supposedly eight years old and they were a third grader that like my guide daughter was, if she was ready for high school geometry, she could just take, take geometry.

00:07:26
I like it if a child was 14 and they were ready to go to college that they could go to college. Because in fact, I don't see why kids are still in school or young people still in school through 18. We don't live in an agrarian society anymore. So there's no summer, no reason to take a summer off of learning. What to say there was a learning loss. It seems like there's no learning. Learning didn't get lost. It was a misplaced. You want: just stopped! So I don't know. So I'd like to see, you know, that different. I'd like to see the structure of schools be different. I'd like first to go to what are micro schools or in some ways revert to the one room classrooms again where it's just learn and learn to master material as opposed to learning what supposedly is needed for a particular grade level. I apologize if that was a long answer,
That was perfect. Oh my gosh, there was so much richness in there and just ideas for action to like beyond the vision, like you're moving to, like, here's the system and here's what we are doing and here's what we can do.

00:08:28
So I just love the detail and that response. I think one of the things I'm curious about is like that, I think there's so much work in this. I think is like mindset and like just having different priorities, like you're explaining this idea of the one room schoolhouse and moving to college at 14 and like these things that really break with tradition but would ultimately be great. And we have to like wrap our heads around, like how do we shift our minds to envision that and prioritize the things that needs to be prioritized versus prioritizing "This is the way we've always done things. So this is the way it goes." And I'm curious to know like, you know, what are those mindset shifts that you think, either the educational system or families or you know, whoever it is, that that should have that mindset shift. Like what is it that they should be thinking about are prioritizing in this work?
Sure. So I'm gonna go back and do it the same way again. So, I'll start with the parents. The mind shift for parents, is that parents have to stop outsourcing. I mean that's one big mind shift. If there are other mind shift certain, but one big mind shift is that parents have to stop outsourcing.


00:09:32
So what do I mean? There was a point in time where I believe people took parenting and thought of parenting somewhere rose is almost a profession that there was this realization that: "hey, my legacy is the legacy of having a child do better than me.". But somewhere along the way that is lost. So then, and now the legacy is, well, if I can brag on my child having done something good, I'm cool with that. But the work necessary to so that my child can do something and live a life better than me, I'm not so sure I want to do that. So I'm gonna outsource everything: the moment my child is born, six weeks after my child is born, I'm going back to work. I'm going to work and I'm going to give my child to a daycare. Now the daycare is gonna be, my child gets gonna be predicated on how much money I make because everything in America is pretty predicated in many ways how much money I make. So some kids are gonna go to daycare where they just sit in a room and look at tv and some kids are gonna go to daycare where they're actually learning in a room and they're gonna, and that's gonna pay off in the end.

00:10:38
So one of the things I think parents have to stop outsourcing and realize that whether or not I have wealth or privilege or not, it's still my responsibility to find a way to make sure that my child, who I invited to this planet, they did not invite themselves here, but they didn't show up at the border, I invited them here, that they, that I should treat them like a welcoming and honored guest. So that is part of the shift, to just take full ownership for your child's future.
What I think children have to do? Well, part of children's issue is what happens at home. So some of you can't ask them because they're trained many times to do nothing because they've been in the household for nothing. So in Indiana as an example, I don't think you have to go to school till you're aged seven. So if I've never been asked to learn, if I've never been encouraged to read, if I've never been encouraged to do math, then it's gonna be very difficult. But we have to find a way to help children be able to see what's possible. And I think one way to do that is just ask kids the question.
Again,

00:11:42
guys I met, we talked earlier. If the world were perfect, you'd want to do what? Because I don't think most adults ever asked children what they wanna do. They might say, I want to be a basketball player. And then if they say that I say, well, cool, you want to be Lebron James. Well, he is six foot eight and 260 lbs. and runs a 4.5 40. So this is like, let's look at your genetics, Can you do that? No, Mr turner, I probably can't do that. Okay, well let's pick something else that we can do. There's a lot of other things and then once you can tell me what it is you want to do, Hey, there's this thing called Backward Design, we can start designing how to get you to where you want to go and we can give you the tools and techniques. So I think the idea is to get Children to dream audaciously, but then find the support systems to help them to do that.
What do I want to see what's the mind shift for educators? That education is not a destination, it's a part of a process and perhaps we should move from calling people educators to maybe enlightenment coaches,

00:12:46
where, because for me, when I think of when people say I'm educated, it's past tense. I attended Butler University. I was educated at Butler University. I went to law school. I was educated as a lawyer at Valparaiso University. I attended, you know, Valpo Graduate School, so I have a Master's degree. So those are all past tense. Very few of us are talking about what we're doing today to remain enlightened. And so I think that's an aspect that in education, even the educators have to change their mind about the knowledge content and realize as Socrates says : "I know that I know nothing."
That is so powerful, especially because I think about like the various teachers who have either worked with or had as teachers who have, you know, use the line, well I have my degree and it's like, oh I don't know, that's the message, we want to center it there right? Instead of like the modeling of here's what I learned today and here's how I learned it today and like here's what you know, we're all gonna learn today, what do you want to learn today? I think you just captured so much in there from asking students what they want to learn to, you know, all the way to, to thinking about like that redefinition of what it is to be a teacher and a lifelong learner and that model.

00:13:59
So really great mindset shift there, I love those. You mentioned the Backwards Design, which I am a huge fan of and so I'm thinking now we can move to kind of the actions. You know, like what does this look like? And I know you have a really powerful process that you alluded to earlier that you have developed your own child and thinking about Backwards Design. Could you speak a little bit to Backwards Design in that process you've created?
Sure. So I know Backwards Design is an educational theory and I believe it was established and I can't get a person's name, but I know it was a Vanderbilt. So in 94 I was a fledgling when, you know, 93 I married. In 94 in the farm, my wife announced that she was pregnant because I always tell people in 94 I wasn't pregnant. Today men say we're pregnant. No, no, no, 1994 she was pregnant. And so 94 she says, hey, I'm pregnant.

00:15:02
She says, no, it's plus it's plus and I see this early pregnancy test.
And long story short, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, we're gonna fail miserably. This neither one of us are prepared for this. We both had these tumultuous childhood. And so I thought here I am, I'm about to graduate in December, I learned and I'm gonna be a father in October. And I'm like, and I don't know where I'm going to work, I don't have a job. I mean I'm about to have this law degree in this joint Master's degree, but I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I said to myself, man, if you had gone to a better law school, if you have been more prepared. So when you were taking the LSAT that you were applying for law school, the elite law schools would have invited you to attend, you would not be sitting here right now trying to figure out what your next step is because you have all kinds of options throwing your way? And I said, okay, well where, what school would I have gone to? And I'm like Harvard of course I would have gone to Harvard, then one ranked school and so I wrote Harvard for an application and then my wife and I, when we got the application, we took the application apart and decided that if we could, if the world were perfect, if we could do what we needed to do, could we get a child to meet the academic qualifications of Harvard?

00:16:16
So that was our sight. Harvard was the destination and everything we did, we did backward right to do that. So Harvard's first element on their application said we want obviously students to do well academically and like, well we don't have a baby yet, but what do we do while you're pregnant to make steps? So we started doing those kinds of things, reading in the room, right? And she would increase their vocabulary and make sure she ate properly and make sure she exercised so that her delivery was easy, so we didn't put any additional emotional stress on this unborn baby, right? And you know, make sure that I didn't cause her stress and I was a loving and kind of a, you know, a happier version of me that I possibly could be. And then when the child was here, like what would we do from an educational standpoint? So we want to make sure we can, the child can read early. So what does the science say about having a child read early? Well buy these big posters and show the infant pictures and make the sounds and all the pictures and spell out the letters and tell the colors and do all that kind of stuff. And you wanna introduce new languages, play language tapes in the crib and so instead of hearing ga ga goo goo come out of our mouth, you would hear "hola como estas bien y tu" right? "good morning", "guten morgen" takes your place.

00:17:31
So that was part of the "here's what Harvard says we have to do academically". And then the second thing we didn't recognize was that before the application that Harvard also asked for students who are world citizens, then that was the word they used in 94. Like wow, so that today that really speaks to cultural and global competency. So like, okay, well and we have to make sure he can learn at least speak another language. So that was the language text right? And then at every step we would get, we would want to introduce him to people who spoke another language. So we had, we bought like Reader Rabbit and Jump Start, with today is Duolingo and other things are available. But the night before there was CD-ROMs and you put the CD in and the child would listen to it and do stuff on the screen. And so it was a little bit interactive. And then the last element on the Harvard application was that you, they were looking for students who cared for something greater than themselves and like, okay, well then that's what we call today, humanitarian driven. He said, well everything he does in his life has to have a component where he is doing something for something, some calls greater than himself.

00:18:40
And so that became the template that we use now which is intellectual ambition, which we call a little bit more than just grades but wanted to make sure you could do think critically. Second part is global and cultural competency : Hey, we want you to be able to speak in other people's language, but we also want you to understand other people's culture. You cannot be the person who was always asking people to understand your situation and your history. What about having a context for other people's history and other people's experiences? Because when you do, it's going to make it easier for everybody to come together. And then the last part was that we wanted him to care for something greater than themselves and everything that you would do in your life have to be predicated about that, because as I was, as I mentioned earlier, people are always gonna judge you by who you are, by your words and your deeds.
Wow, that is so powerful and also just so brilliant to be able to just deconstruct that application and then figure out from the womb, like what are we doing?

00:19:40
So I love that approach as an educator and a Backwards Design thinker myself, I love it and I appreciate all of the really tangible things from someone who even is just figuring out they're pregnant to be able to listen to this episode and be like, all right, it starts now, here we go, that is fantastic. I'm curious to know as you kind of got to know your child and learning kind of what he was interested in, like what was the path of kind of facilitating that engineering and he's ending up at the engineering school and so what was that like to kind of facilitate that learning about, you know, being an engineer and those kind of skill sets?
Sure, so the interesting thing is I had no preconceived notions or any intentions that he would be an engineer. In fact engineering was the furthest thing that I would imagine he would ever do. He was so good with writing and language and so forth. You know, here we are with an African American child who is 16 and is fluent in four languages and conversational and two others.

00:20:50
So you're like, okay, he loves to write and he started this little foundation and he's caring for. It is written about a book. He's writing a book about what are we gonna do today, which is to encourage other parents to be more involved in their children's lives. And he started this foundation to work with homeless teens.
I have no idea what he is going to be interested in that. What I would tell you we did Lindsay. And again, is it brilliant or is it accidental? Right. Is it trial and error? Right. I always tell people he's kind of like the project and he's been the test case dummy, right? Sometimes that we just wanted to make sure, essentially I would say it's a little bit like the proverbial buffet table. We wanted to make sure that he was prepared to eat anything he wanted to have off the buffet table.
I grew up in Gary, Indiana. I was not prepared if you can imagine life as a buffet table and that the best things in life, the filet mignon, the Dom Pérignon, the caviar that are all at the left end of the table and I had the stuff at the right end of the table, the hot dogs, the bright, the sausage in the can, the crackers, the cheese. When I showed up at the buffet table, they would point to me and say no, you stay on this side of the table, with the inexpensive stuff. You're not ready for the other stuff.


00:22:18
And what we wanted to do is just make sure that he had the opportunity to choose wherever he wanted to be on life's buffet table. So it wasn't until he went away and spent time playing soccer in Brazil that he then said : "I think I'm gonna be an engineer." And Netanya, which is my wife and I said : "What, an engineer? Okay, alright." And of course he's done well enough in math and science, to meet the academic requirements, but it was never our plan. That's what he was.
I appreciate you saying that too because I think sometimes we do have, or I've definitely had students come through my classes where they are like my parents that I'm doing this, and so that is what I'm doing and I, you know, in talking to the student, you get to know them and you're like, well, what is it about being a doctor for example, that you want to do? I actually hate medicine and I hate science and I, okay, so you actually don't want to be a doctor, interesting. And so it's, I think so much of what you're talking about is so great because not only do you have to structure this backwards plan, but it's also fluid and flexible enough to actually follow whatever it is that your kid is passionate about and I think that's so important both for families and caretakers as well as for teachers that we just need to be able to follow the passions of our students because otherwise you're just gonna promote disengagement and be like, I'm just doing this because my teacher told me, or my parents told me and that's not good.

00:23:43
Yeah, I mean we wanted to make sure you had a like a wide variety of things he was introduced to. And so when you get enough things you get to introduce because the child can say, well I don't like that and I said, well, have you ever done it? Well, no. Well how do you know you don't like it?
So when our son first started playing soccer, he doesn't, he hated it. "I'm gonna be the worst person out here." I said : "you are, you are the worst. You've never played. You're terrible, so you're at the bottom. Let's just start with that." And then he played and then we start talking about soccer. But soccer is a metaphor for life. I said, well you're not any good at it because you don't practice. You're not any good at it because you don't do the right things to be good at it. You're not any good at it because your mindset is terrible. So let's talk about how to change your mindset. Let's talk about visualization. So can you imagine you're in a car with a four year old and you're talking about visualization and then one day you're in the car and you look in the back seat and the four year old has their eyes closed, and you said, "What are you doing?" He said, "I'm envisioning how I'm going to play today." Right, okay, right, "and I'm going to school, I'm gonna steal the ball and I'm gonna go down the field and I'm gonna score a goal." And he goes out and does that. And then you're like, oh well right.

00:24:59
And so now that four year old understands something about life that some 14 year olds or 24 years don't. Hey, I am as I think I am. And so that becomes, you know, a part of his routine that he uses for everything. But the intention was not that he would play professional soccer. One day, he enjoyed it so much, he said, "hey, I'm ready to leave the country and see if I can't live out my dream of playing professional soccer, but mom and dad, you prepare me as I speak fluent Portuguese and I speak fluent Spanish and I speak Caroline and I speak English and I know some German and I know some French. So I got a few options, I can go some places and I can try it out." But yeah, the goal was never to make him do anything. It was to just give him a breath of information and opportunities that he could choose what he wanted to do his life.
That's so powerful and I appreciate that you've been talking about like, you know, the realities of the structural pieces of our society paired with this, like within our family, we can have a locus of control of this, we can visualize this.

00:26:10
And so I love for you if you're okay with it, to speak to the misunderstandings about, you know, for parents and for teachers right? Of underserved and underrepresented students. And so like what I'm just imagining like that family school dynamic and I know many teachers have had misunderstandings and misconceptions about families, who have marginalized identities and are underrepresented in systems of power in our school structure. And so I just love to hear your thoughts on that.
Sure. So one of them said was America is number two in gross national spending or per pupil spending in the world. We're number two. When you look at our math scores, I think we're in the 30s and the science scores were in the 30s and the reading, I think we're 17th or something like that. So we're spending a bunch of money and we're not having great outcomes. So what is the point to that? The point to that is that America if you believe that income is the reason that students succeed, then you need only look at how our outcomes are internationally and we're spending more money and virtually everybody, but we have results that rival Turkey and Rwanda.

00:27:24
So it is not about money, right? It is about the time that we invest. And so if you imagine the rule of the 10,000 hour rule and you say, well, what does it take if that's true? What does it take to become an expert in something? And you say, well, how many hours is in a child's life from 0 to age 6? Is there 10,000 hours or more? And you know how many, how much of a brain is developed from 0-6? More than 90%? So then I'd say, what are you doing in those first six years? Poor parents, wealthy parents, any parent in between. What are we doing from 0 to 6? I contend if you're doing little than nothing from 0 to 6, then your outcomes, I don't care how much money you have, are not going to be very good. You know, may have a slight difference because if you have wealth, you're probably gonna have a slightly hands-on vocabulary because mom and dad are gonna put you in a position to meet people, but are you going to be a better student? Probably not likely.


00:28:28
I believe there's only 35% of even white students that are exceedingly proficient on the last ACT reading, writing, math and science. It's about 6% for African American students. But there's not 100% of the students that almost 70% of white students are failing as well. So the thing is we have to get involved and stop outsourcing early on and their parents have to again be what schools say we are, which is a children's first teacher. We got to really roll up our sleeves and get involved no matter whatever your income, and your wealth income status are.
Yeah, excellent points. And I think from a teacher's perspective to be able to value what parents do bring to the table in those conversations about their child and about really honoring and just kind of almost making the assumption of yeah, you are your child's first teacher and I'm gonna treat you like you are, versus I'm just gonna tell you when your kid is bad and that's the only communication we're gonna have and it's just, you know, like this broken system of communication.

00:29:33
So I think it's totally a partnership there.
Yeah, I mean if I believe if you and I don't wanna likening children to material, but if we were to likening children to material and I said, "hey Lindsay, every day you're going to get to work with gold." Or, "Lindsay, every day you're gonna get to work with, I don't know cement?". You'd say, "well give me gold every day." like right. Or if you're an artist with the best canvas and all of the best paints and I said, "well you can have that, but I can give you a bunch of broken crayons." you would say, "well of course they give me.". And so I'm like, what happens if we finally start delivering children to school who are not needing to learn to read, who are not needing to learn to write, who are not needing to learn to do math? But if we delivered to school students who are her reading, we're now ready to read to, to learn. We're now already doing math at its most basic level or better.
When my son went to Stanford the very first time for a visit, we met families that were from Asia and from East Europe, or Eastern part of Europe.

00:30:45
But I want to say like Ukraine, Russia who had taken calculus as third graders, like they don't have any more money or any more resources. They just have a different culture, a different structure about what they believe the children need to do. At least those family, I'm sure not everybody is that way, but those that there's a different way to get their children prepared and I just, maybe you should adopt some of that.
Yeah, wow, third grade calculus. I can't even imagine. That was hard for me in college.
There's a gentleman by the name of Glenn Doman, you may be familiar with his work. He has an institute that is... his daughter still maintains it. I'm gonna get it wrong, but it's like the Institute for Advanced Intelligence or something like that. But he started it... I want to say in the 70's, coaching parents to work with children who have brain injuries. And he was teaching children with brain injuries how to read by 18 months and do complex math problems like 1267 times 7892 and those babies with brain injuries could do the math problem.

00:31:57
And when I saw that, and start and picked up his books like whoa, hold on a second, my child don't have a brain injury. His daddy brain is a little questionable, baby's brain is fine. If he could do that with those children, why aren't we all doing that with every child? So we picked up the dominoes, that was how to give your baby encyclopedic knowledge, how to teach your baby to read, how to teach your baby to do math, those kind of things and started trying our best to apply those things as best we could in Nathan's life.
Wow, that is really powerful. I think there's so much to think about in terms of what you've shared with us today. And so I'm just imagining a listener being like, okay, I'm ready to go do these things and I am ready to get started. But there's just so, so much I could be doing. Where do you recommend that someone starts as like maybe a first step or something to get the ball rolling with this way of being and parenting and teachers partnering with parents and that kind of thing?

00:32:58
For the parents, I think the very first thing to do is just to simply ask yourself, "what are your hopes and your dreams for your children?" And that's where I start and where I end. That's what informs my conversations with teachers. It's what informs my conversation with university faculty and president. Listen, here are the hopes and dreams I have for my child. Can you help us make those things a reality? If you can, good. This is the place for him. If you cannot, that's fine. But just tell me because you're not his parent and I'm not outsourcing my parental rights and responsibilities to you at all. Right? At the end of the day, if he's in an orange jumpsuit or he turns his tassel and throws a cap and gown up in the air, people gonna say whose child is he? So I want to make sure you can help and that you understand what my hopes and dreams. So that's where I would start with families. What are your most audacious, bodacious hopes and dreams are for your children?

00:34:04
You have to dream of you. Without those dreams, Then we're all just, we might as well be I guess inanimate objects, right? We should just be a plate or a glass of water or something. If we're not gonna dream then what's the point of being?
Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that as a starting point. I think there's so much potential in like you said the Backwards Design process, if you don't have those hopes and dreams laid out and you're not clear about them, like how are you ever going to backwards design from there?
So it's like taking a trip within and you say, I'm gonna say it and my phone was going to say, hey G hey S hey Siri and Siri says, yes. You're like, I want to go somewhere and then they will say, where? Like where do you want to go? I can give you the directions but I don't know where you want to go until you tell me. So yeah. At some point it starts with what are those hopes and dreams are. And then at some point the children will tell you about what their own hopes and dreams are. Nayen told me standing on the top of the Grand Canyon that he was done with high school and, "I want to go chase my dream, I want to go taste my dream dad and I want to play professional soccer and I need to leave the country.".

00:35:19
Okay, alright, okay, you got a destination. Now I got to help you figure out how to get there.
Oh, that's so beautiful. I'm just imagining that scene to just like, okay, all right, this is a movie worthy.
We had just finished reading the Alchemist and then I would say, hey put that in your show notes and have families definitely should read the Alchemist and he said, okay, I know where my pyramid is, and I'm ready to get there and you gotta be like the shopkeeper and you've got to help me figure out how to get there. So okay, okay, right. We got there. He got there, but he had to know what his hopes and dreams were first.
That's awesome and I will absolutely link the Alchemist in the show notes the great suggestion. I know one of the things you mentioned early on in our conversation is this idea of, you know, teachers and parents and caretakers being lifelong learners and being committed to that growth journey. And so I'm just curious, you know, this is kind of a question I asked for fun at the end, like what's something that you have been learning about lately?

00:36:31
Okay, lately, every day I learned about me. I learned something about myself lately. So, and I would say that this realization that I needed to learn more about me and more about me in terms of like pressing the envelope Nate. How much more can you learn to be able to be a help or a servant for other people? Came from a child. So Nine and I having this conversation. He returned from his visit to Brazil. It's in June of 2012 and and we're in the car and he looks at me and said, "what's wrong with you?" And I have tears in my eyes because I feel like my life is over. Like, I've had hopes and dreams for him and he's now articulated his hopes and dreams and now he's about to leave the freaking country and leave me here. I'm like, what am I supposed to do now? This I've been doing this for 16 years, what else was I supposed to do?

00:37:32
He looks at me and he says, "you can do more. Something like that." It's in the book. And he pointed out to me today yet the exact quote is on page 61. I'm like, Okay, yeah, but it's something like you can do more, you still have time. And I was like, well what more can I do? And he said dad do everything you've been doing with me for other fans. So what I've been doing since 2014, we published Raising Superman, was finding a way to be better equipped to share with other families. How to give their children the best life. So every day I'm like, okay, well what can you do different, and likely one of the things I've been doing is I've been journaling and I've been doing this process called Journaling Foward and I've been coaching other other adults now how to journal forward and I've been coaching parents how to do this course we designed called Mission 51 26, which is, this ideal of how do you get to a mission like Harriet Tubman who had these 30+ missions of freeing slaves? How do we show people how to liberate themselves to their best lives?

00:38:42
and then 51 26 is out of respect of Sir James Dyson who had 5,126 failed prototypes before he finally got to the 51 27 prototypes to get the Dyson vacuum cleaner and I believe he's worth like $40 billion dollars today. And so I said, hey, you gotta be willing to fail 5000 won 26 times. But you also got to be on a mission to do something that's for something greater than yourself. And so that's why I've been working on sharing with families some tools and strategies, but I have to keep getting better in order to continue sharing tools that don't seem like they're now old or outdated.
That is awesome. And we can link to any of those tools that you'd like to share with folks in the show notes in the blog post as well. Finally, where can people learn more about you and the work that you do or connect with you online if they're interested in learning more?
Well, you can connect with me Lindsay, I'm gonna give you my phone number, you can just call me any time you're not going to stay in touch.
Perfect.
But everybody asked me, I'd have a website, it's Nathaniel A Turner dot com.

00:39:49
N A T H A N I E L A T U R N E R dot com. That's probably the easiest way. I still have a blog, it's called Raising Superman. And I write all the blog, but generally if you were on Nathanial Turner, if you went to the site, this mark says "blog" will take you to that blog. We have an online course for parents called the Extraordinary College Planning Course. I think that's what it's called, but I'll share with you it's through Teachable. And we started a, let's just say we Latonya, Nayen and I started a not for profit called the League of Extraordinary Parents where we could begin to share with parents some of the same tools and strategies.
That is amazing. You've been doing so much...
Because a child demanded it of me and he still holds me accountable to it. And so I still believe that I'm responsible, hoping and dreaming and in a very audacious fashion and I do that because I don't want to let him down.

00:40:55
It sounds like you're doing an amazing job. You're sometimes incredible. So that is great work that you're doing and I appreciate not only all you're doing, but just that you took time out of your day to speak with me and speak to our listeners. So thank you so much for being on this podcast.
I'm grateful that you invited me. So thank you for having me.
​
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsey Beth Lyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave and be your best self.

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​In today's conversation, Joyce Akridge is going to talk to us about how we annihilate inequities. For context, this episode was recorded on October 13th, 2021.
So let me tell you about Joyce. She has a reputation of being "a highly motivated, transformational instructional leader with a proven record of student achievement." During her 44-year tenure in the Indianapolis public schools, she demonstrated personal and professional excellence in leadership for the success of all students. She served as a lead principal and principal mentor in the Indianapolis public schools in 2015 through 2019. She was awarded the Educational Excellence Award by the Indianapolis Urban League in 2016. She was recognized by the Department of Education for her work. The school where she was a principal was given a state rating of an A for five consecutive years. Additionally, her leadership was recognized by the state of Indiana as the school received the title: One Distinguished School Award in 2014. She was also a recipient: The Governor's Award for Achievement and Civic Leadership Education in July of 2015.
Joyce was also recognized as one of three schools in the district with the largest growth in mathematics in 2013 and was highlighted in the Indianapolis Star as one of the five schools in the district that succeeded despite high levels of economic poverty in 2012. She has been featured in several publications, including the Indianapolis Star, Chalkbeat, IPS newsletters, Who's who in America and the Indianapolis women's magazine. In 2017 she received the Hubbard Life Changing Leadership Award for her dedicated service to the youth of the Indianapolis public schools.

00:01:29
She retired from the Indianapolis Public Schools in 2019. However, her passion for student success continued and served as a catalyst for the origin of her own coaching and consulting company that she developed with her daughter who was also an educator. The goal of their company, Urban Education Solutions, is to solve problems in education that are " uniquely urban ". She currently serves as a mentor and coach for principals, assistant principals, and instructional coaches in the Indianapolis area.
Let's hear from Joyce Akridge.
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher-leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school-wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

00:02:53
Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
I'm very excited that you're here. I just read your professional bio at the very start of the episode and if there's anything you want to add by way of introduction to? A lot of times bios feel very professional and there's kind of like more to us as 3-D people beyond our profession. Feel free to go ahead and share anything else that you want the listeners to know.
Well I would like the listeners to know that I just have a passion for the field of education and wanting so much for the students to be successful. I am a results-oriented person. And so I want good results for the children and as John Maxwell person, I've been to his trainings and whatnot. My goal, as it has always been, is to add value to people, whether they're young people or whether they're my colleagues or other educators,

00:04:01
that's just continued with me. Even though I am officially retired, I want to do that because I know that's so very important and especially in times like these.
That is beautiful. I love that I add value to people. That's so great. And speaking about all the great things that you have been doing and adding value to in terms of the educational systems that you've been part of, I think it's really important that we have these kind of big dreams around what school can be. And I love Dr. Bettina Love's work on freedom dreaming and she talks about it as "dreams grounded in the critique of injustice", which I just think it's a fabulous quote. And so keeping that quote in mind, what is the dream that you hold for the field of education?
Well, the big dream I hold is that, first of all, we do the work that we need to make things right for children. And that equity is not just something that we talk about, but it's a reality for us. And that instead of allowing others to come in and so to speak, fix us, that we have enough that we know already with the collective brains and intelligence of all of the educators that we do that ourselves.

00:05:19
So my big dream is that we annihilate inequities and that we embrace equity for every child in every school, both the academic equity and that social potential of every child. That's my big dream.
That is a beautiful dream. And I love that you specifically are naming social as well as academic because I think a lot of times that gets left behind in our rush to cover content or you know, get the good test scores or whatever it is that we think we're supposed to be doing in education and you know, students as we are ourselves, our whole human beings. And so I think that's so important that you emphasize that, thank you.
I think again sometimes, you know, people have that tendency to really think just about the academic piece and the academic side of things and the way we've always done things. And so I think that the dream of annihilating inequity, right, is requiring us to do things differently than they have historically been done.
And so, what are the mindset shifts or different ways of doing things or thinking about things that that either you've seen people really hold that are successful with this work or that you would tell listeners who haven't really quite started the work that mindset shift that needs to happen to be able to be successful in annihilating inequities and supporting the social development of students along with that academic piece?

00:06:44
Well, I would first say that, Lindsey, it's more than just a mindset shift, although that's important. But to be true workers of equity, we need to have our belief system shift because beliefs impact your actions and your behaviors. And so in order for us to annihilate an equity, we need to examine our beliefs because they influence our actions and our practices in the classroom and we need to be sure that we believe that each child is worthy of all of ourselves, all of our talent, all of our practices. They are worthy of everything that we can offer to help them to be fully educated. So that's one of the things, that's the main thing. And to me it's the whole notion of not just shifting, but transforming. And even though I've never seen the movie Transformers, I know just from having had children, although there are grown ups now, that those transformer cars, they switch into something else, it's completely different.

00:08:06
So what we need in order to have an equity-based education for every child is transformation. So we need to start viewing children as assets. We need to be aware of who we are so that we can then help who they are. We need to focus on equity versus equality. Those are mindsets that need to shift. We need to look at them as I said as assets versus you know, their deficit in my room and oh no, I got this child and no, here comes another one that doesn't speak english and so that's a deficit to my class and what I want to do with my class. So I want us to be very mindful of viewing children as valuable and valued and so it's a complete transformation that needs to happen. I think you said it well that we've done things historically a certain way, but that's given us the same results

00:09:09
we've always had. It's predictable : who's going to be successful, who's not going to be successful, which group of students are gonna meet benchmark, which groups are not. And so we need to do some things that are transformative, so that all children can meet and exceed their potential.
I love that call to not just meet but exceed the potential. That is wonderful. And I really appreciate you naming beliefs as a key piece of this. It reminds me of one of my favorite, like scholarship theories around this adaptive leadership. Scholars will say, you know, it's usually a longstanding problem. Usually at the heart of it is this underlying belief or value or loyalty and we just haven't identified it and we just haven't switched it and we're gonna keep having the problem. We could throw all the p.d. at it we want, but if we haven't identified that, believe that needs to shift that believes like you are saying that students and children and people right are valuable and worthy, then we're never gonna get anywhere with just another p.d. workshops.

00:10:15
You're exactly right. And that's why so many programs fail because we focus more on, I suppose the outward action that we see, but the hearts of people haven't changed. And so for a small amount of time we can see some change, but it's not gonna be lasting and sustainable because the hearts haven't changed. So in this equity work you have to come with your mind, your hands and your heart and you've got to be willing to examine your beliefs. So for any educator who started out who say, yeah, it's wrong that it's predictable that black boys and black girls and brown boys and brown girls aren't doing well in school. We see it every year. So for anyone starting with that equity work, I would say the first major piece is to examine yourself and your beliefs and then to see how that impacts your actions as you work with these children who are from historically marginalized groups.

00:11:25
Yeah, excellent advice. And as we move to thinking more about like what are the things that educators can do to really advance equity and justice in in the educational space? What other things would you suggest that people do? So really starting with examining themselves, and making sure that we hold those positive beliefs, right? Whereas children are bringing value, what else would would you say? Either you've seen be successful or you would encourage listeners to do as they're continuing this work
Well, beyond self examination and becoming more equity conscious, I would say that I would suggest that educators, number two, because examining yourself would be number one. Number two would be to look at the curriculum and see where we can disrupt the cannon because a lot of our great works are all by historically based white male authors and those kinds of things, especially when you think about high school and just simply decide : I'm gonna disrupt the cannon by including some black authors.

00:12:41
I'm gonna look at literacy. I'm gonna leverage literacy to let children see themselves and know that we care about them, seeing good models of themselves and they are out there in literature. I would also say that educators could leverage the opportunity for student participation. I don't think we are aware of it, but one of the things we do is we call on fast hands or people we know who will have the answer. And so simple things like having equity sticks where you put the names of children on popsicle sticks and you call on everybody and everybody has a turn that holds thing of opportunities to respond. We have found that black children and brown children a lot of times just don't have those opportunities to respond and maybe have the right answer, or some divergent thinking that would add to the discussion and make it a richer discussion.

00:13:43
So that's something very practical that they can do. There are some wonderful websites like Sankofa Reads and Black Lives Matter Library that will read stories to children about brown and black children. They read them in Spanish and English and helping children to see themselves in literature. That is so very important. Again, this whole notion of having the children to all know that you're going to call on them to respond and you can't take time off because I'm just calling them one kid or whatever, but getting them involved. One of the things we know about educating black and brown children is that they need relationships with people. That's very important when you look at literature. So another thing is take the time to develop relationships with the children. There's a whole philosophy called ten and two and I don't know if you know that, but I tried that and it works.

00:14:47
You take ten days and just for two minutes a day, you get to know maybe that child who's got behavior challenges are, who sits and seems so disconnected to the learning environment and you get to know them and you ask them a pointed question or speak to them or give them a smile and you'd be surprised how the relationships can add to the learning environment. So there are simple things you can do to begin this equity work. Look at a video, read a book. I'm looking at one right now that, it has been very good for me. It's called Start Where You Are, But Don't Stay There. And I don't know if you've heard of Richard Milner, but he is out of Tennessee and he is a great resource as you begin this equity work. And he talks about that

00:15:49
it's not just equity practices, but for a lot of the children, it's an opportunity gap that they don't have the opportunity for, to be educated by the good teachers. The best teachers are given to the gifted and talented students. And so we get a lot of children who have teachers who are first year teachers who don't understand about the importance of relationship building rituals, routines and rhythm of black and brown children and all those things. They don't have the opportunity for on-grade level work. There are so many things that some of our brown and black children don't have the opportunity for, which exasperates the achievement gap. And so his goal is to help you understand that if we improve opportunities, we can improve what the children are learning and sustain what they are learning so that everyone rises to the top, not just some groups of children, but all groups of children rise to the top.
Wow!

00:16:56
So many great ideas in there and I had never heard of ten and two. So that makes so much sense. And I think also is probably really comforting for a teacher who is, I'm sure constantly like barraged with all the things they need to do in a day. And so they're like, oh I don't have time, but two minutes a day, like you have two minutes a day, we can do that. So I love that suggestion.
I would also suggest that the educators out there or anyone out there, take a course, one of the courses that I took and there are a lot of free equity courses. Out there was a course from M. I. T. On their open learning library and it's a course called Becoming a More Equitable Educator Mindsets and Practices, and it's a self paced course that is excellent. They give you articles to read, resources to explore. There are self checks that you can do checklists, audits, you can apply to your classroom to your school, to your district. Those kinds of things which help you to examine your practices to see where you can improve what you're doing on behalf of all children because equity practices are good for all children.

00:18:21
So taking a course, reading a book, watching a video, all of those things, in the comfort of your own home can create more awareness and more opportunity to advocate for children who are not equipped necessarily to advocate for themselves.
I love that you're emphasizing all of these great tools and resources and approaches for learning because I think sometimes we go into this thinking : I'm just gonna start doing this action or start building a relationship or something, but we have no new input and so it's our old ways of doing things, our old beliefs and we have nothing new coming in. We're not learning anything new. And so we just try to move forward with the way we've done things and just adapt slightly versus doing this in community or doing this with like you were saying, kind of these self assessment checks. There are all of these things that are helpful for us to make sure as we move forward, we're moving forward in a positive way in a way that's actually going to be more equitable.

00:19:24
And so I will link to as much of these resources as you've shared in the blog post in the show notes because I think it will be helpful for people to be able to click in and access all the great stuff you've been talking about. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is and I think this is so cool. You have been, since you mentioned you were retired, you have been you know, working in this your own consulting and coaching company with your daughter, which I think is such a cool thing. Do you mind sharing a bit about what you do in case people are interested in and you know, talking to you about that or what coaching you provide?
Well, what we do is our company is called Urban Education Solutions and our tag is that we help solve problems in education that are uniquely urban and that's where a lot of our our historically marginalized students reside in the urban setting. So I've been working with educators mainly coaches and principals and helping them with examining their practices and how we can make education more equitable for children.

00:20:35
Just recently I took on a client : the Indiana Council on Educating Students of Color. And so I'm working with them on their after school program and I'm the program director so that we can get more social emotional learning in the program, that we're practicing equity with the children that are there. And that we are also using those things that we know work as far as a framework for guiding the learning. And so you might have heard me mention that there are five things that guide that learning when you work with black and brown children. You need to have relationships. You need to have rituals and routines. You need to also understand that their rhythmic and that they're pounding on the desk not to ignore you, but it's a part of their spirit that they're rhythmically inclined. And so we wanna understand that they like routines and the rituals and the routines and those five Rs that I mentioned and that those things impact how you see them, you work with them and what you need to do to keep them engaged in the learning.

00:21:53
So we're big on engagement. And so even the simple thing of teaching the alphabet or nouns or verbs, if we can clap it, if we can pat our hands or whatever. That's very important to our historically marginalized students because that's a part of their culture. There's no way anyone can know about all the cultures and subcultures, but there are some basic things that we can learn to do that can help us as we work with the children such as Gamify or Storify telling stories. That's a big part of our oral history as minority groups and so those are some things that can be done as well in the classroom. One of my best books ever that gives you the whole idea of being a culturally responsive educated, which is important to this equity work is Zaretta Hammond's work on the culturally being culturally responsive, culturally responsive teaching in the brain.

00:23:00
And so she talks about having tools in your toolkit that you can use so that you can keep the children engaged in learning and that you're teaching with them in mind. You've always got to keep the child in mind. And so when you're culturally responsive when your equity minded, the child is always in the forefront, not the lesson plan, not even necessarily the test scores, we want to be student centered. So that's the kind of work we've been doing. I've been coaching instructional coaches season, so that we can be equity minded. So I think that's the kind of work we've been involved in, also been involved in speaking at conferences. She and I have done conference work speaking via Zoom. Zoom has become our best friend. So we've put on local conferences, we've participated in local conferences and even national conferences that we've had an opportunity to participate in and just getting the word out there, that we all need to stay concerned and not just because Covid has shown us that there's all these disproportionality ease, they were always there.

00:24:26
They just had the spotlight shined on them since Covid, you know, that digital divide and all of that is real. But to keep the work going, that's what's important to me, keep the work going beyond Covid that we need to give every child, but he or she needs so they can be successful.
Amazing. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing a bit about what you're doing and it is phenomenal. I love all the five Rs and the focus on engagement and the idea of continuing to go. I think we have, you know, these moments in time where we shine spotlights and then we focus for a finite period of time and then we go back to the way things always were. And so I love that you're focused on not doing that and just, you know, continuing the work so incredibly important. So as folks kind of hear all of these resources, you've shared so many really precise action steps as well as resources that they can go check out and as I said, I'll try to link to all those as they listen to the episode.

00:25:28
They might feel like, okay, there's a lot that I should go do and is there anything that you would recommend as the best place to start. So as they're trying to really live in alignment with these values of equity and justice that we've talked about, like what is a good kind of step one as they go forward, end the episode and start to do this work.
Well, I want our readers to understand that Equity is important work and it might be work that you're doing alone because everyone won't see it your way. And so you've got to be courageous enough to say, even if my colleagues don't join me, it's important enough work that I am going to keep at it and I'm going to pace myself through the journey even if I have to do it alone. And so I would suggest looking at one of the Equity websites, there are lots of websites out there and there are some as you know, with everything that are better than others.

00:26:35
I started with the Association of California School Administrators and they have an excellent website and definition of equity. I would just start there just looking at that definition, unpacking it, finding out what it means to me and what I can do in light of what that definition says. That's one of the things that I would do. The other thing is I would go to one of the Equity websites. There's one that is very good. I'm trying to look through my notes to see if I can find the name of it. It's the National Equity Alliance, that's another good website to go to. Just to see what our website saying about equity and just looking from there, taking an overview of what's happening and what people are saying and what happens is what you and I talked about.

00:27:40
You find your little niche, you find your little niche however you pronounce it of where you want to go. For me, the big thing was leveraging literacy and how I could get more stories about other children of color or childrens of color into everyday curriculum. Then it was opportunities to respond. How am I making my classroom richer or my school richer by having everyone ready to respond. Everyone participating and not just calling on the same children all the time and allowing the ratio of children to be called on to be more inclusive. So there are simple things like that. If I had to say, oh well I'm not one to look at websites and I'm not one to listen to definitions, I would say start with Zaretta Hammond's book on Culturally Responsive Teaching in the Brain. Out of those three things that I've mentioned, the website, the California Association of Administrators, and Zarretta's book, you ought to find some way that you can jump in.

00:29:03
The whole notion is jump in, don't stay where you are just being a curious bystander. Jump in and be as with November... October, I'm sorry, it's national bullying month, be an up stander, that's what we teach children: don't be a bystander, be an up stander. So that's where I would suggest you start just saying: I'm committed to being an up stander. If someone makes a rude racial joke in the teacher's lounge, I'm gonna walk out. If I don't have the courage to say : hey guys, that's not nice, or I'm going to have the courage to say: that's not nice, or take an equity, walk around your building, your classroom. Do you have pictures of different racist creeds, ethnicities? Then commit to. I'm going to get a committee in and let's just get some other pictures up of other kids around the school.

00:30:07
If you have permission, take pictures of your own classroom. You know, you can get those frame for a little of nothing and the kids who just love seeing themselves around the school. But whatever you do, start where you are and don't stay there.
I love that: start where you are and don't stay there. So one of the things that I like to ask at the close of the episode that's really just kind of for fun. I think all the guests that I have on are always talking about, you know, really growing like I like you have been today and and being lifelong learners and committed to this journey and so I'm just curious to know what is something that you have been recently learning about yourself?
Well that's a good question. One of the things I have learned about myself and partly it is my personality and partly is because of the work that I've always done, I've been an administrator and a lead teacher and all of those kinds of things. I always show up to be in charge and you know what, that's not collaborative and that's what needs to happen in the equity work and the work for justice, you can't show up to be in control and in charge, you have to show up firstly to be cooperative and then that leads to collaborative.

00:31:30
So that's the one thing I am learning about myself. I am learning to be more collaborative and I think that has happened because as I had been involved in my business and I have began the work of coaching, coaches should be collaborative beings. And so I have been doing a lot of work on myself to be a more collaborative educator, so that's where I am working on collaboration. And then I also have a little angel on my shoulder, my daughter. She'll tell me when I'm showing up in charge and she'll say, you know, we need to work together. And it's probably that old mindset that principles have to know everything and they have to be a resource and a broker of resources and you have the answers. But no, no one person has all the answers, not in the equity work, not in any work associated with schooling. You know, you've got to be a collaborative player and so that's the work that I'm working on now, to grow and learn as a senior citizen.
That is beautiful.

00:32:52
Thank you so much for sharing that with our listeners. That's really great. And I think people who are, you know, have been listening to this whole episode are really going to want to connect with you and I'm sure everyone's gonna be inspired by what you're doing. So where can people go online to find more out about what it is you do or connect with you in some way?
Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm still in the process of building my website. So I am open to anyone who would like to connect with me to just come to my personal website. My email address is... I've said website, I meant my email address is joyce, lower case letters, the number 4, jesus @ sbc global dot net and I will be prompt to respond. It's my pleasure to still be involved in this work and it's energizing work. You know Lindsey, when we are stressed stress takes air out of our balloon as a metaphor.

00:34:03
You know, it deflates us. And for me, teaching puts air in my balloon. So any work, any teaching that I can do to help people to encourage equity practices to help children who can't advocate for themselves have a fair chance in life, that puts air in my balloon. And if you begin the equity work in earnest, I'm sure it will put air in your balloon as well.
That is such a wonderful idea to end on Joyce. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast.
Thank you Lindsey for having me.
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsey Beth Lyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, You can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave and be your best self.

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​I am so excited for you all to hear from our guests today. Today we are joined by several folks from the LearnLife Nature Hub for Primary Years all the way in Barcelona Spain.
We have Guille Villena who is the learning guide and Primary Years lead and he's brought along two Primary Years students, Eden and Nico. I can't wait for you to hear from these insightful voices around educational innovation and in their own words describing a school that is fun and interesting with choices and freedom.
This conversation for context was recorded on October 4th 2021. Let's get right to it.
Hi, I'm Lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities. Take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

00:01:05
If you are a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader.
And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts. If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the time for teacher ship podcast. Let's dive in.
Today I am welcomed by three folks from the LearnLife Nature Hub for Primary Years in Gabba Spain in the Barcelona area and I am so excited to turn it over to them to introduce themselves and talk a little bit about their school. Welcome everybody.
Thank you. Welcome.
Thank you.
I can start introducing myself. I'm Guille Villena, I'm currently the primary years lead of the nature Hub programs. I have been involved with LearnLife for almost three years. I started in the urban hub with the secondary years programs and we started the primary years project a year ago midst of the pandemic and the lockdown.

00:02:15
So it was a very interesting point to start the project but here we are with the second year growing in numbers. Iterating the programs and we're very, very excited for all of the new adventures to come.
And here with me, I have two learners who will introduce themselves with their name, their age and their favorite animal.
Yeah, My name is Eden, I'm 10 years old and my favorite animal are canines.
My name is Nico, I'm 10 years old and my favorite animal is the cheetah.
That is brilliant, thank you so much. That's really fun to learn about your favorite animals and also very interesting animal choices. I feel like those are really spot on. So one of the first things I'd love to dive into is there is an educator and a scholar, her name is Doctor Bettina Love and she talks about this idea called freedom dreaming and she says what we're doing right when we think about education as we want it to be.

00:03:23
Just like we're really thinking about dreams grounded in the critique or the criticism of injustice. And so I'm curious to know for you all, what is the big dream that you hold for the field of education? Like what do you wish school would be if it could be everything that you wanted it to be?
So our big, big, big dream as an organization is to help achieve 21st century learning model that empowers self directed learners, into their personal learning. And I would like to extend this question to Eden and Nico and what would be what, what would a perfect school look like for you?
To me it would be fun, interesting, lots of choices, not just like give you a paper and you have to do it. Like now you're allowed to work with people and you don't have to sit desks in a row.

00:04:26
The best school for me would be uh fun, the school will be fun and you know that you're learning something and using technology too. That's a brilliant answer. Thank you. Thank you both. That sounds like a really cool school that you're all painting collectively. I would like to attend that school. That sounds great. The next question I want to ask you is, you know, there are some teachers and some leaders who are just amazing, right there. They bring that to life. They make school fun and interesting and they use technology and they do all those things you're talking about and so I want to know what are like the ways that those teachers or leaders really help facilitate the learning. So what mindsets or ways of thinking about students do they have or what do they do as teachers that are really helpful for you?
I can start and then extend the question.

00:05:27
I would say the first thing that these leaders or teachers or as we call them, learning guides need to have is a very strong awareness of what positive relationships are. Because that's in our core of of what we do. Positive relationships for the learners between ourselves um as colleagues and with the the outside community I think that's a key, a key mindset. Also being agile and being able to navigate through uncertainty, having a growth mindset, divergent thinking and especially being able to collaborate. We have shifted from a solo mindset, and most teachers in traditional systems work by themselves and we have shifted that mindset into collaboration and working in collaboration with other learning guides and in the wider company, you know, so that for me, those would be the main mindset.

00:06:33
I don't know how Eden and Nico value? what is the thing that you most value about the learning guides here?
That they're kind and, I don't know how to say it, um creative and that they can join you and help you if you have problems.
I think it's nice that the teachers are nice and that they motivate you and accept your ideas.
I love those answers. Absolutely. I love the idea of accepting your ideas and and being creative, right? And partnering with people outside of both collegiately like both, you know, as colleagues and also outside of the school, the super cool ideas.

00:07:35
So I'd love to think about the people who are listening now there are a lot of people who are going to be, educators, they're learning guides in their own school. They are maybe leaders or heads of school, even family members as well, but people who are really helping to educate and help children learn. And I'm wondering what advice you would give them. So what advice would you give them in terms of what they can do to make that dream come to life and what action or thing can they, can they do to really be the type of educators and learning guides that you were just describing?
I would say so if you're a parent, I would challenge you to think how am I helping my kid to be ready for her or his future. If your school leader, I would challenge you to think how am I empowering my community to enable change. And if you're a teacher, I would challenge you to think how can I be the driver of change in my own community. And for everyone, I would suggest that we think or we remind ourselves to think more as a learner, so putting ourselves in the learners shoes and thinking about every single decision that we take or that we make, if we're doing it from the learner's perspective. Because sometimes we get caught into the routines and the status quo and we we keep forgetting the learner and at least for us what everything that we do is for the learner.

00:09:16
So I would invite everyone to, to think as if they were a learner.
Beautiful, Eden and Nico, did you have anything you wanted to say advice for teachers or learning guides?
That's totally okay, thank you. so this question is for for all of you, what is the school experience that you've had? It could be this year, it could be you know, previous years that helped you or influenced you the most.
What was a cool experience that you've had that makes you feel like "oh I love this" or that inspired you?
It was a lot different at my other school, you could choose what to do, like you could choose what to learn what you want to learn and you were more like a bit free because from the other school we needed to sit all the time and write on your paper and that was, and you learn a lot of English. Like when I came here I know not a lot of english and now I think I can speak english.

00:10:44
Yeah, I mean you've, you've you've grown so much in English and you got it in a year, so you should be very proud of yourself, I totally agree. And what about you, Eden, what is an experienced here and LearnLife that has inspired you or that was different from your previous school?
My other school, like they'd give you something to do and if you did not understand it, you'd have to stay through snack break and you'd have to work and then when there was like one minute left you could go out and have a breather but then you'd have to come straight back up. But here it's different, you get to stop, you get to have a snack and then another day you get to finish it.
And for me school experience that I had um I guess that I would pick um when I was a teenager I suffered from bullying and I think that has helped me in my professional growth as an educator. Because I keep reminding myself how learners feel socially in the classroom or at school and there are sometimes they are invisible and if there's not a safe space for them, they will never share how they feel and they will be trapped in this nightmare that they're experiencing.

00:12:13
So for me that was eye opening and one of my goals is to ensure that we have a safe space and that we empower them to emotional education and and that the culture for learning here is very positive and that's why I was stressing so much the idea of positive relationships.
Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's so important. Sometimes we only think, and I think Eden's answer speaks to that as well too, right? That you have to do this work at the expense of everything else. You can't have snack time, you can't focus on the social well being of children and that clearly isn't what people want, right? Like Eden was saying it's way better to have snack time and then be able to to finish your work later or just pay attention to, you know, how kids are doing in the larger like, you know, whole self that they bring to school, not just in academics. And you know, Nico to your point, I think it's really powerful, you said that we are choosing right? Where I love your quote, you you're kind of you're a bit free, right?

00:13:16
Like in this new school that you're in now, right? Compared to your previous school and I'd love to hear, you know what are some of the things, just to give people an idea, I think the way that you all learn in your current school is really different from maybe some of the people who are listening, the schools they've been to as children or the schools they teach at now. And so could you tell me a little bit about, you know, what's a project or what's a thing that you have chosen to learn about recently in one of your classes?
So for impassioned projects for example, can you tell them what what that's about?
So passion projects, you choose a project which you wanted to do what you want to do and then you get the credit and you have to like um write, how many materials you need, how long do you think it'll take you? And then once you're done on Fridays, there is community meeting where you get to show your project to the whole school.
That sounds amazing. So what were some of the passion projects that you both have been working on?

00:14:24
I'm gonna make a lamp and I'm also doing a bakery with two other friends of mine.
That's incredible. Nico what about you?
I really like super heroes, like Marvel characters. So I decided to build, trying to build like a cardboard Iron Man suit.
That is really cool. Oh, that's so awesome, wow, you are impressive learners. I am very excited to to hear more about these projects later on when you're done. That's so great. So as we are kind of coming to the close of the episode, I would love for you to share either something that you wish that listeners would do. I know you were talking about advice earlier or if it's easier, what's the most important thing that we talked about today that you want people to remember as they stop listening to the episode and go about the rest of their day.
Any ideas? What is something they would like the viewers to remember, well what you said or the most important thing?
To hear other people's opinions and not just do whatever you want, it's Friday tomorrow.

00:15:41
For me it's again not to to recall our ourselves as learners and our past experiences in school and reflect on that and see what is the impact that we can make with with that mindset.
Excellent suggestions. as one of the questions I really like to ask as just kind of a fun question at the end and I think I kind of asked this already of Eden and Nico but feel free to add something else. You know what is something that you have been learning about lately and so for Guille, I think one of the things I think about is you know, as adults sometimes and learning guides um that commitment as you were saying earlier to constantly grow is so important and so just to kind of model that we are always learning as well as adults. You know something that you've been learning about lately.
I totally agree with you. Here we see ourselves also as learners. So I'm currently being a learner in surfing and I started learning how to surf actually.

00:16:54
I remember Eden last year. Yeah, exactly. You were giving me some tips which I have been using lately. so I always remember you when, when I surf. Yeah, for me it's it's having a growth mindset, surfing. It's challenging but very exciting. What about you guys, what is something that you have been learning lately?
I've been learning how to play the piano since last christmas and I think I've improved quite a lot but I still have to learn how to read better. What about you Nico? Learned like in natural systems or Explora or...
I don't know.
Memory loss?
It is hard to be interviewed. So I understand you'll think of something amazing that you want to say later. I'm sure. Awesome. Well thank you all for sharing. And is there anywhere that if someone who's listening really wants to check out more about the work that your school is doing or if your your school has a website or wants to connect, is there somewhere that people can go to?

00:18:06
Just follow the great stuff that that's happening?
Yeah, I mean they can log in to LearnLife.com and then follow us in our social media channels. We're on Instagram, Facebook Twitter LinkedIn.
Perfect. I will link to those in the show notes too so people can be able to click those easily and I just want to say one more time to, Eden and Nico thank you so much for taking time out of your day to, to speak with us and to speak to the listeners. I really appreciate you all being on the podcast.
Thank you. Thank you for for the time and congratulations for your podcast.
Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsayblyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation you can head over to our time for teacher ship facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.