In the Time for Teachership episode, host Lindsay Lyons shares specific strategies for working with students with Individualized Educational Plans or IEPs.

“Supporting students with IEP was my job for seven years when I taught high school in New York City public schools. This is such an important aspect of teaching: supporting all students with all kinds of approaches to learning.”

Although students with IEPs or 504s need a good level of support, she says that all students have different needs regardless of the labels. So learning about teaching special education classes is something that can be applied to a wider scope. In education, differentiation means tailoring instruction to meet individual needs. But how does a teacher know which route to go? It can be quite overwhelming when you start thinking of all the different ways to personalize learning. When breaking down the types of differentiation, Lindsay refers to a template and the words of Carol Ann Tomlinson. Tomlinson says “Differentiation is a teacher's proactive response to learner needs. [Those needs] [are] shaped by mindset and guided by the general principles of differentiation.” It’s about supportive environments and getting to really know your students. Also assessment is a big part of getting the necessary knowledge for differentiation. It gives students the ability to voice their needs and suggestions. That’s something that would be very useful for teachers when creating lessons and instruction. Understanding students from a qualitative perspective breaks the idea that they should only be measured by how well they’re performing on tests, or what their grades are, etc. Lindsay explains differentiation is not tracking your students. It’s not being rigid or limiting choice. It’s not calling your students “low skilled” or saying that they have an “ability” for this one thing because that doesn’t recognize the fluidity of student’s skill development. A great example is Tomlinson’s use of the phrase “readiness” over those other terms. 

“So instead of saying students have a particular ability, right, they're “high skilled” or “low skilled” or something like this...we instead say “readiness” they’re at the readiness for this type of skill at this type of level. And if they are not there, that just simply means they're not ready yet.”

One thing that Lindsay shares from her experience is that she used to take out all the information from a textbook and just break it up to give to students, not seeing a better way. But she saw that student’s didn’t find that method helpful and realized that it’s not about dumbing down anything. There can still be high expectations for students but there needs to be the right level of support from the teacher for them to succeed. 

Secondly, there are the four types of differentiation to consider. The four types are content, process, product, and affect or environment.

Content 
Content centers around the information that is reaching students. What topics get picked to present to them over other ones? The goal is to keep students engaged and teach them about what they have a lot of interest in. And it can be tricky when some students have already seen this content, so there are those different entry points.

Process
When it comes to process differentiation, reading text, watching a video, writing notes down, creating a hands on project or diagram, etc. are some of the ways students can interact with the content and remember it the best. Perhaps some students will want to have discussions about it because they get to process and make sense of what they’re seeing or reading.

Product
The third type is about how students are expressing what they have learned in the class. Traditionally, we assign final papers or assessments to students to determine this. But it can be a struggle for many students to summarize their learning in that way if they are much more verbal with expression. So it is important to give more options and think a little creatively about how students can show you what they know and their analysis of those key concepts.

Affect/Environment
Finally, environmental differentiation is the way the classroom works and feels. Examples of making the environment personalized for IEP and other students could be: making sure there are places in the room to work quietly and without distraction, providing a space for collaboration, adding elements to the class that represent diversity and cultures, and the option to discuss one on one with the teacher.

All these ideas together show that choice is a crucial part in the process of differentiation. That’s why there is a choice board template Lindsay created that allows you to write down things for content, process, product, or environment. Remember, “You do not need to differentiate in all four ways for every student every single day. Please keep that in mind. Everything that you create around differentiation is one step forward for the personalization of your students learning and for your larger classroom community as a whole.”

To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Links: 

• Lindsay can be found on: 
  • LinkedIn: @lindsaybethlyons 
  • Instagram: @lindsaybethlyons

In this episode, it’s all about learning to disrupt structures of racial inequality and advocating for children. April Brown is a trauma informed specialist, curriculum developer, writer, and instructional coach . One of the biggest beliefs for her is that education should be rooted in liberation. The systems of oppression that she’s trying to dismantle are ableism, racism, capitalism, and sexism.


“I'm always asking myself, who has been validated here. Whose voice perspective is being amplified and held as the truth and who is being erased and dismissed.”

Her journey started when she came across an article while pregnant with her daughter. The article’s message that white parents are perpetuating white supremacy by not teaching their children about it left April stunned. From there, she sought out more resources to keep unlearning racism and how it showed up in her body and life. As an educator, she knew it would be a disservice to her diverse group of students if she did not do the work of educating herself first. 

“It’s also super, super important for me, is just stepping back, listening, learning, and just shutting up sometimes. Just think, like, this is my time to learn. I have a whole lot of unpacking to do.”

She credits some of her favorite educators and organizations such as The Disability Visibility Project, Debbie Reese of American Indians in Children’s Literature, and Ashia Ray of Raising Luminaries. April’s response to how school leaders can bring antiracism to the classroom is to realize that it’s not going to be an easy, simple task. It will take small sustainable changes to really be able to understand what’s working and what’s not. The key is to constantly reflect on those actions and responses from your students. She encourages us to learn about systemic racism and what effects it has had on a macro level but also a micro level in schools. School environments often reflect how racism and inequality plays out in larger society. So there needs to be opportunities for white teachers to educate themselves and understand how it shows up where they work. Another important part is making sure student voice is amplified. Student voice should be present in everything that’s going on within curriculum planning and the classroom. In addition, educators should focus on balancing the power dynamics between themselves, students, families, and the community. In order for there to be true social justice, schools need to have intersections of creating welcoming spaces for LGBTQ students, disabled students/faculty, etc. and then making sure that there is accountability when harm is done to these groups. It’s important to remember that it isn’t just Black and Brown students that need to feel supported, but BIPOC faculty and teachers as well. It’s not enough to just hire more BIPOC teachers. How can you as a school principal or leader create a welcoming space where these BIPOC teachers feel heard and valued? 

In the next part of the episode, April talks about a quote that inspires her. The quote from the activist Myles Horton says “I was beginning to see the contradictions between what I had read and what I had come to believe and what I learned experientially.” April commented “Kids know what the truth is. They know when we're sugarcoating things. They know when we're not telling them the truth and I think that when we do not speak truthfully to children, we are doing them a great disservice and they're going to learn not to trust the grown ups in authentic and real ways.” She explains how she makes it a point to have difficult conversations with her four year old because politics are really a big part of life and it’s important that children are prepared for the role it will have in their own lives. The events of this year created many intense political conflicts and conversations on white supremacy and government which has certainly reached children yet teachers are still not sure how to address it or stay neutral in their classes. It’s important to realize that neutrality is actually silence and being silent does not mean the students won’t know what’s going on, only that they won’t have a safe space to process their thoughts and feelings. So the right thing is to have these difficult conversations. Let the students ask their questions. Be honest with them and let them know when you don’t have answers but let them know you will find them out together. When it comes to putting together academic assignments for students that include these topics, instructors should put some thought into making sure they are framed in a way that does not call the validity of these injustices and systems into question. For example, asking students to debate on the topic of whether same sex couples should be able to get married would be asking them to debate on whether they should have human rights which isn’t something that’s debatable. Instead, you can examine data and facts to determine whether a situation is happening or not. You can say here’s a problem that needs to be addressed and then debate on potential solutions. So those are some ways that educators can go about adding it into their curriculum. 

Finally, April shares how her training as a trauma informed specialist helped her to create her own mini course titled “Trauma Informed Teaching Microcourse”. This course is made for those who want to commit to cultivating trauma informed teaching practices in their classroom and school. You can connect with April Brown on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/aprilbrownconsulting,
the FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/StudentIgnitionSociety/, her website www.parentingwithheart.org, her Twitter at @abrownconsult, and her email at parentwithheart@gmail.com.

To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

Resource links:

• Raising Luminaries
• Revolutionary Humans
• EmbraceRace
• Raising Race Conscious Kids
• Reflection Press
• The Neurodivergent Narwhal
• April’s article, “Talking with Young Kids About Elections, Democracy and Justice for All”
• Teaching Tolerance's Social Justice Standards (not mentioned in the episode, but highly recommended by April) 
• Four core goals from an anti-bias education (not mentioned in the episode, but highly recommended by April) 

Additional Resources curated by April:
Ibram X. Kendi How to Be an Antiracist - https://bookshop.org/…/how-to-be-an-antiracist/9780525509288
Ijeoma Oluo So You Want to Talk About Race - https://bookshop.org/…/so-you-want-to-talk-ab…/9781580058827
Layla F. Saad Me & White Supremacy - https://bookshop.org/…/me-and-white-supremacy…/9781728209807
Revolutionary Humans by Hold the Line - https://htlmagazine.com/…/line-leaders-socially-conscious-…/
Dr. Kira Banks - http://kirabanks.com/
Rethinking Schools - https://rethinkingschools.org/
Teaching Tolerance - https://www.tolerance.org/ 
Zinn Education Project - https://www.zinnedproject.org/
Britt Hawthorne - ABAR workshops https://britthawthorne.com/
Montessori for Social Justice & Tiffany Jewell - ABAR workshops https://www.anti-biasmontessori.com/
Ijumaa Jordan - ECE Consultant - ABAR workshops https://ijumaajordan.com/
The Conscious Kid - https://www.theconsciouskid.org/
Woke Kindergarten - https://www.wokekindergarten.org/
EmbraceRace - https://www.embracerace.org/
Raising Race Conscious Children - http://www.raceconscious.org/
Raising Luminaries & Books for Littles: Raising Luminaries Kidlit - https://booksforlittles.com/
Student Ignition Society: Raising Luminaries Educators - https://booksforlittles.com/student-ignition…/sis-resources/ (I'm the Dean of Rebellious Educators & we create free family action toolkits - these are helpful classrooms as well)
Latinx Parenting - https://www.latinxparenting.org/
Rachel Elizabeth Cargle - https://www.rachelcargle.com/ (unpack your how you are complicit in upholding systems of oppression such as white supremacy)

Books for teaching little ones how to be anti-bias/anti-racist:
Anti-Bias Education for Young Children and Ourselves: https://bookshop.org/…/anti-bias-education-fo…/9781938113574
Don't Look Away: Embracing Anti-Bias Classrooms:
https://bookshop.org/…/don-t-look-away-embrac…/9780876598436

Book Collections:
https://booksforlittles.com/racial-diversity/
https://booksforlittles.com/racism-and-power/

Book subscription boxes for parents & teachers:
Little Feminist Book Club - https://littlefeminist.com/
Little Justice Leaders - https://www.littlejusticeleaders.com/​

This episode, I’m excited to share with you both the tool I used to get student feedback on my first semester of fully remote teaching as well as what I learned from my students and what I’m doing moving forward. 
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change  like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

​Lindsay Lyons (she/her): For this episode. I'd love to talk to you about the survey that I gave to students at the end of my remote teaching semester including the questions that I asked them. And what they told me and what I learned from them through their feedback, is that as educators, we’re always inventing and creating and adapting and iterating our course content. And so I think that's a really important piece, is listening to my students and what worked for them, what didn't work for them and what I can do moving forward. So I thought it might be helpful to just share with you one of my processes and also, two, just some student voice. I think it's really powerful whenever I'm listening to a podcast or reading an article and I can see some quotes from students. I just feel like I get to hear a little bit more of the student voice, even if they're not mine. And so while this may not reflect what your students, particularly thought about learning, I think it is helpful to just hear from some students and think about how that process goes and what that means for us as reflective practitioners. So the first thing I did was I gave them what's called a pre then post test. And this is important because in the research, we found that people who assess where they are around a particular skill set or outcome at the start of a semester, or the start of any period of time before getting the intervention or the lesson or whatever it is, they often underestimate just how little they know. And so it's not really a great depiction of where they are starting. When you do a pre than post test, what you do is, at the end of the course or intervention, you ask them to reflect back to where they were when they started. And because they've learned so much, they have a better sense of where they were at the start, in comparison to where they are at the end of the course. So the pre then post has been asked them on a horizontal scale of one to four where were you at the start of the class around each standard for the course, where are you now at the end of the course. And so we just want to share, I won't share everything, but I'll share the biggest growth areas for standards. So where the biggest shift was from start to finish with the course and the area or the standard that had the least amount of growth.

So the biggest amount of growth was the learning target or the standard “I am aware of the advantages and disadvantages I have in society because of my membership in different identity groups and I know how this has affected my life”. So for context, this is a gender, race in society course. It is the introduction course to Merrimack colleges Women's and Gender Studies Department. So about 82% at the start of the year said, I am probably at a two, very few people said that they were at one, so a two is, you know, “I need help, but I can do it. I just need, I need support to be able to do it.” A couple students said “I'm okay with it, I just need some more practice.” And one or two students said, “I knew I needed a challenge or I could teach someone.” By the end of the course, about 73% said “I need to challenge. I'm at a four. I am feeling really, really confident with this." And then the other 27% said they are a three, they just need some more practice. So that was the biggest growth, again, that was just that self awareness of advantage and disadvantage in society because of identity membership. And the other biggest one was, I can apply a feminist lens to a conversation text event or issue. And this makes sense because of the way I structured the class. Every time we met synchronously in our one hour and 15 minute course on Wednesdays, we would actively apply whatever the readings were for the week to a current event. And so we got a lot of practice with this. So that makes sense that that was a big growth area, just, kind of, putting that reflective cap on and so at the start of the year about 73% said that they were at a two, 9% said they were at one, then the other 18% were split between two, three and four. At the end of the year, we had 82% of people saying they're at a four and about 18% of people saying they were a three. So again, that's big growth, the least amount of growth was on the Intersectional Standard. And so this was, I can ask, what about women and also which women? So we're not just analyzing for gender, we're utilizing for other aspects of identity as well. We're not assuming a single identity or story or experience. We're not assuming that the group of women is monolithic. And so that's really important. There wasn't as much growth there, there was some, but that is an area that students still feel like that's, that's the biggest challenge for them moving forward. If we look at the numbers there, we had a lot of people, almost 50% of the class, who were at one at the start of the class, 9% who were at a 2, 36% who were to three and 9% who had a four. And at the end of the class, we had about 55% who were at a four which is excellent and 36% who were at a three. We still have 9% who were at a two, so just a lot less growth in, in the other standards, but still growth, which is good, but obviously an area that I want to focus on moving forward in terms of course development.

So now I'll just share the rest of the questions I asked for students to reflect on and share with me their thoughts which will, I think, really help me inform my course moving forward. So the first question I asked was, what did you learn? And this includes a lot of things: content, skills, and I also specifically wanted to know if they were willing to share what the biggest change was for them. So there was a lot of different answers here of course, but I'll just share three that stick out. One student said “I learned in the semester, about a whole new way of thinking. I never really thought of these kinds of things before this class. Now I put a whole new lens on how I think.” So this quote was powerful to me because this is what I would like. I would like kind of an opening of the minds and mindset shift, if you will, in the class. And if I can just provide a new lens to look through the world and look at events, I think that's really helpful for students to be able to use that lens in looking at different events and self reflecting. That's something that I was really excited to hear. Another student said that “I became more self aware and more educated on these topics which helped me start more discussions outside of the class.” This highlighted another piece for me. I think my goal is not just that the things that students learn and experience, and the skills they develop, stay in the class. I want them to move outside of the class. It'd be really relevant and applicable to life. So again, this was heartening. The third student used words that I just wanted to highlight in their response so “Power, privilege. analyze, advantage, self awareness". So the key themes we already talked about in those other two responses, but these are words that I think, if I set a goal for myself at the end of the year to hear students reflect in a particular way use certain vocabulary or have certain prioritization of skills they develop, these terms would definitely be a part of it. So we think that's helpful for me and just setting goals for the future of what I would like for students to be able to accomplish and think about at the end of the course. And this also helps me set the stage for how I want to frame my class for my incoming students in the next semester. 

​Another question I asked was what was your most memorable experience from the class? And these ranged a lot. So some students talked about specific topics that they thought were really interesting. Some even talked about specific facts that they found interesting. So intersectionality was a big one. We talked about first hysterectomies which was really powerful for students. We talked about hidden teachings in school and things that are not covered in school that are factual truth historically, but are just not part of the curriculum. And that was really enlightening for students, particularly because I had a lot of freshman, college freshmen, who had just come out of the high school setting, who were thinking reflexively about what was last year like for me? What was I learning and not learning? The fact that Black Lives Matter founders are women was really powerful for a lot of students. Again that intersection of gender and race being really an important component of the class. Some students talked about specific projects they like the media critique is one that is always a crowd pleaser. I use that in high school I use it still in college. So I definitely will hold on to that project. Specific activities they liked: they liked the discussion we, had a guest speaker, Dr. Sherry Burgess, Patrick. They loved when she came in so that was really helpful and will just kind of remind me to, again, use those same topics, despite every year, you know, I change up my curriculum a bit, but I will try to go back to those topics and those projects and those class activities that were really resonating with students from this class. Now here's a huge one that I think it's beneficial for me. Certainly, because this was the first full semester of remote teaching that I've done. And I think for people who are thinking about remote teaching specifically, this was really fascinating to hear students responses and, obviously, again students vary. These might not be reflective of what your students are thinking, but for my class. I just want to share what they said. So one student said that “I thought the experience was really good. Classes for each week were very organized and easy to follow with the syllabus.” So I think what the student is referring to is in my syllabus, I use that as a one stop shop for every class resource. So projects, documents, each week's course tax readings, podcast, different things that they needed to interact with, all of the standards for the course, the project descriptions, the specific links to course slides, when we were having live classes were in the syllabus. So students knew if they just had to keep track of one document, they could return to that document again. And again, they could bookmark it, they wouldn't have to juggle a bunch of different documents for the class. So I think that was helpful to know, that was helpful for them, it certainly helped me as a teacher just knowing that I bookmark that document myself and just continue to add to that throughout the course. 

Students also reflected positively on win time. So what I did for my course we had two meeting times for the course. And that was Monday and Wednesday, I decided to use Wednesdays class as our synchronous session and Monday's class as win time. So I would be there in the zoom room and students can drop by if they have specific questions about projects, if they wanted to meet with me about their grade, if they needed that teacher-student connection and just that personal facetime with their instructor, they could have that. And so there were students who met consistently every week because that's what they needed to learn and other students who just dropped by when they had a project question or at the end of the year, or around mid term grades, a specific grade related question. So around this. I'll share a couple quotes from students, students said “I liked to have in-class on Wednesdays and Monday’s optional. It gave me more time to complete my weekly journal.” So that student really is referring to the ongoing work that we had. Each week we had a weekly assignment, which was a reflective journal and they really liked just being able to dedicate that time. It helped them structure their time when, you know, everything is a little chaotic this semester to be able to say, okay, this is the time that was allocated for class instead of being in that live zoom meeting I now will dedicate this power and 15 minutes to doing some of the reading to working on my journal and posting it before the deadline for the week. Another student said “It was good and it was helpful that there was a day, specifically for extra help or questions and knowing I had access to that if I ever needed it.” So I think that's interesting. I don't know who the student was because this was an anonymous survey, but this is helpful to know that even the students who didn't go because I'm guessing the student probably didn't go to the Monday workshop time or the win time. There were several students who didn't attend win time on Mondays for the entire semester but it's good to know that. Maybe someone who didn't ever attend still liked having the option they like the flexibility of being able to get some face time one on one or in a small group with the teacher. 

A lot of students talked about their personal learning challenges based on their learning styles with the remote classes in general. So, for a lot of these students, they were purely remote, working from home, learning from home. And this was the first time they've done that, not out of choice, but because they really needed to stay home for one reason or another due to covid. And so, some students said, “It was sometimes hard to pay attention, just because of so many distractions, but when I got myself in a quiet space I was able to listen and easily pay attention.” Another student said “I would definitely pick class in person rather than online just because of how I learn.” Another student said that “I personally do not like staring at a computer screen for hours at a time and it's hard for me to pay attention.” So a lot of students are really reflecting not about this class, specifically, but on their own self awareness of how they learn which I think is a helpful activity. Again assessment has many different purposes. And I think it's important to note that it's not just assessment for me to improve my learning in the future, right, assessment for learning. But it's also assessment as learning. So just by nature of answering these questions that I've asked students are deepening their self understanding of how they learn and maybe we'll help them make informed choices moving forward in the future. Other comments students said about the remote learning, “Even though remote learning wasn't my favorite thing I found the setup of this class easier to deal with.” I'm guessing that means easier in relation to other classes so it would be great to know who said that cuz I can follow up, but I'm going to use some of these other quotes to kind of help me paint a picture of that. “It was hard and different, but I was able to adjust as the semester went on.” “I liked this remote learning experience. It was easy to follow.” So some students really did enjoy remote learning more than in person learning. It may have saved a lot of driving time because we have a lot of commuters at the college and I think also that easy to follow piece is really important. So having those streamlined processes, every Monday we do this, every Wednesday we do this, the things are always posted on this one document for any resource you will need. I think that was a really important part of my setup that contributed to the comments about positive organization are easy to follow. So I'll continue doing that moving forward because it sounds like that resonated with students. Another student said that “I thought that the remote learning experience for the class was the best out of all my remote classes. I liked the surveys, at the beginning of the class as well as the breakout room discussions.” So just some context for how I framed the class, surveys were self assessments on Marzano’s, on a scale of 1 to 4 that I mentioned earlier, for every standard that the specific class was about. So I would usually have one, maybe two standards for each class that we're focusing in on. And at the beginning and end of the class, I would ask students where they were in that moment on a scale of one to four. I would use Zoom's pull feature and I used the same poll just logistically, if you're wondering, I use the same poll with the same scale of one to four and I would write out what a one meant, what a two meant, etc. and I would just ask the two questions: On the first learning target, on the second learning target, how would you rate? And so I could change the learning targets on the screen. And I would be sharing my screen with them and so that way I didn't have to create a new poll every single class. 

For the breakout room discussions, what we would do is we would have about, 50 minutes of a whole class conversation. We would divide it usually into maybe two different activities. The last activity, being a case study where we looked at a current event and thought about how we could apply the week's readings to the current event. And so, we would analyze that. First, I would present some information to the whole class and then I would usually take about 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, for students to go into breakout rooms in a group of about four or so. And they would be able to answer maybe two or three key questions in response to the case study, and then we'll come back together and share. The next question I asked is what could I improve when I teach this class next semester? So I really want specific feedback. I've kind of inferred from some of the other questions what I could do, but now I'm just asking students to tell me what should change. So here are some things they said: one, less video projects and possibly more papers. So I did a lot of video projects. I didn't want students writing a paper for the three projects. One was a one page written paper and the other two were video projects or audio projects. So that's good information to have. And I've had feedback in the past. So I think I want to expand a little bit of more choice for students. I want you to be persuasive, so, you know, pick what works best for you. But if you're a persuasive writer and that is your strength, I want you to be able to play to your strengths. I don't want you to write a paper because it's easier. I want you to write it, because it is where your strength lies and you can capitalize on that. So I think the framing of it is important, but I'd like to expand that and see what that looks like in the future. The reason I got away from papers to start with is because I have them “publish” their papers or their projects, I should say to other students and other students will read and comment on theirs. So it's nice to get that peer feedback. I felt like students might not want to read a lot of papers because they're already reading the journals each week and engaging in conversation around those, it would have been a lot more reading, and viewing a video might be more engaging. But, I think I can just ask students that question after giving students the option to respond and have the students say, you know, this one was really engaging because it was a well written paper. Or, you know, this movie was more interesting to engage with because it was audio visual and that's how I learned. So having that discussion, as opposed to just making that decision for students, I think, is a key learning here.

Another student said “The only thing I think should change is that there should be project due dates. I think that because there is no set due dates, students can fall behind and get overwhelmed because they're pushing projects off.” So context for this. I said there are specific dates within the semester that I had as quote unquote suggested due dates. And so I said, if you're pacing yourself, I really would like to see this project at this time. However, due to covid and due to a lot of uncertainty in the world, I'm going to be flexible with deadlines this year. And so I positioned it as a flexible due date. A lot of students, far more than I thought, really saw that as not a real deadline at all and ended up turning in all three projects, the last week of the semester. So moving forward, I will definitely set concrete deadlines and then I can be flexible with them, but maybe not advertise that flexibility as much. Another student said that “I think the only thing to improve is responding to emails.” So absolutely. One of the things I did for my like just self care and ability to be able to turn work off when I needed to was I took notifications off of my phone. And so I don't think I'll put those back on. But I do think what I can do is dedicate time each day, maybe just 20 minutes each day to be able to go through and check my email. What I was doing was only checking email on the days of class because I was already in work mode, I was in that particular email I have set up on my computer, different browsers configured to different email settings, because I have about six different emails for different contracts that I work on. And so I was only responding on Mondays and Wednesdays. And so I think some students were frustrated with that. Absolutely fair point and so I'm going to really think about how I can build that into my schedule next year. A student said that “I think that some of the directions for the projects were kind of confusing.” And so I definitely want to go back and make sure that those are streamlined. I also provided links in the syllabus in that singular document. They had two other Google docs that had rubrics, that had examples of previous projects that were good, but I think that double click, like, having to click into a document and then click into another document was too much. So maybe directly linking those could be more helpful. I mean of course streamlining those directions is something I'll do moving forward. Another student said, “I think one thing that could be done to improve this class is getting grades for the journal assignments. It was hard to tell how I was doing in this class because there was no feedback given about what was right and what I might have been doing wrong for the journals.” Another student said something similar feedback for the journals, just so people know how they can improve them each week.

So previously, in the previous two semesters, I graded journals on a quarterly kind of basis. So every kind of four weeks or so I would give students a grade and I would explain the grade. This year again for flexibility sake I wanted to make sure students weren't stressed about grades specifically and so I would go in and I would comment because we use the journals as prompts for conversation for the whole class. And so I would just comment in those discussion threads, not for every student every single day, or every single week, I should say but occasionally. And I would try to get to every student every few weeks or so just to say, you know, I'm really missing some information here or, you know, here's what I think, in response to your discussion question you asked. I want to highlight and emphasize the quote you referenced. More qualitative in response to what they wrote as opposed to from a teacher lens, here's what I like about this and what I don't like in terms of meeting the assignment criteria. So that was really helpful to hear because I did not at all think that that was going to be something that students wanted. I thought the flexibility and the response to the content as opposed to the criteria for the assignment would be more helpful and so moving forward. I think that's something that I will think a little bit about, maybe, again, go back to a quarterly read with qualitative here's why so that students don't feel stressed about not knowing whether their journals were productive or not. And the final thing students said for this question was, “One thing I would suggest when you teach this class next semester is to limit the amount of breakout rooms. I know I personally do not get anything out of these and I know that many people agree with me. This is not only for this class, but for every other class that does breakout rooms. I find that more times than not, the breakout rooms are just filled with awkward silence amongst the students in them.” This was really helpful for me to learn because in my facilitation of adult learning I often times leave space for people to go into breakout rooms and not feel watched by me as the facilitator, so that they can have time to catch up or talk to people that they actually don't know that well. In many cases, these were freshmen who had never met in person. They didn't know one another. So I thought that may be some nice privacy for students to be able to talk without that monitoring. However, I think this is really powerful. While an earlier student had said they love breakout rooms this student did not. And so what I think it means for me in terms of my course design next year is that I really want to play with various discussion protocols, just like I would, in the physical classroom and then the class can determine which is best for them because each group is really unique. So for example, I could do a virtual disagree/agree discussion. So in a classroom that looks like sit on this side of the room if you agree with this statement and on this side, if you disagree. And then we call on people from each group. So I tried on something like that this year in a virtual setting with zoom annotation. And so I just set up the slide and then I had them in a team where they were. And then we're calling someone from each group to share why they were there that worked. Okay. I would also add, you know, virtual circle. So again, instead of passing the talking piece, passing the mic, when I am done speaking, I'm gonna pass the mic to and then name the person. Maybe breakout rooms could work, but with an accountability task or maybe I need to pop in more and accountability tasks might look like a Google slide deck where you know in your breakout room you're speaking about these questions and you're jotting some of your responses in a shared Google Doc or a shared Google slide and your group has this slide to fill out so you can also see what other people are saying maybe for inspiration and motivation to complete that assignment. I could also do something like a live paddling or a jam board where people are annotating the typing we're all seeing live without needing to go into different breakout rooms so people just, again, have a different mechanism. If they don't want to speak, a lot of my students do not want to unmute their mic and speak. A lot of students also choose not to show themselves on video, which I think is something that they should have the choice to do. But it made it for a difficult conversation because they weren't as comfortable unmuting because we couldn't see them, because their default was to be on mute. And even when they entered into the chat, the chat feature usually they use the private setting and so other students couldn't see a public message. And so I think this is really interesting and maybe a path that would actually help this a little bit. So students are generating again with options they could record and pilot, you can record an audio, you know, or do a drawing, or you could just type. And we can see that live so that might generate some more responses that people don't feel comfortable sharing verbally.

Other things that I just wanted to pull out from some of the responses to various questions that I didn't share are things like “I enjoyed the class and the expressive freedom that came with it, whether it was in the journals or the projects. I really liked how approachable you are and that it's not intimidating to email you with questions or concerns." One person said she was excited to teach and that was important to them. And then another student said, “I do like how you provide choice boards for the journals. I, along with many other students find it much easier to complete journals, when we are given inspiration as to what to write about. I also like how you provide the ability to veer away from these topics too. I enjoyed reading my classmates’ journals over the course of the semester each week because everyone’s is different.” So I think this is really important to name at the end because as I go forward and share my takeaways, well, I'm thinking about a lot of ways in which I was trying to be flexible was not working for students. It is also important to remember, I often focus on what I could do better, that some of the things I did were working for students and that flexibility that showed up in different ways was actually helpful. And so I should continue to do that.

So just to summarize some key takeaways, I’m going to set deadlines and I'm going to be flexible with them, but I'm not going to publicize that. I'm going to clarify directions for projects and I'm going to try linking rubrics and examples for each project directly into the syllabus, so they don't have to double click through. I'm going to give some more choice in writing versus video, really make space for students to reflect on how engaging different types are in their peer responses and let students play to their strengths. I'm going to give qualitative feedback on journals, perhaps with agreed, perhaps not, but feedback around the criteria of the assignment, maybe quarterly. I'm going to dedicate time to email each weekday. I'm not going to put notifications on my phone, but each weekday should suffice. I'm going to rethink breakout rooms. So play with those various discussion protocols, I talked about and figure out what's best for the group. And I'm also going to continue with a lot of things, Monday, Wednesdays that flex time to just be able to drop in and chat, text choice for reading and listening each week. I’m also going to keep the projects, especially the media critique. That's usually everyone's favorite but I'm going to clarify the directions for them so they're more streamlined and open up that choice in terms of how they're presenting that information, papers being an option next semester. I also want to continue to bring in fresh lessons that talk about current events which will change each semester, of course, and really center the concepts that keep my energy high and my ability to engage with that high effect and positive effect that students need and can sometimes be contagious for student learning. Now that I've shared all the things that my students have said, I'd love to hear what your students say. And to help you collect some of that information from your students, I can go ahead and share, as the freebie for this week, a template of the semester reflection Google Form that I use for my class. I'll try to make it pretty generic so you can add in specific standards for your class for the pre then post section at the start, and you can keep, add, or edit to any of the reflection questions in the second half of the form. I also encourage you to share forums like this with students more than just at the end of the semester. Another thing I want to do next semester is ask these questions halfway through or even on a biweekly basis to generate some of this information before I lose the students to another class. With that, I will leave you thinking about what you want to ask your students, what you want to do differently next semester, if you're remote teaching, if you’re hybrid teaching, or if you're in person. And again, please share any information or learnings or aha’s or student quotes that you would like with us and the Time for Teachership Facebook group. 

Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

In this episode, I got to talk with Afrika Afeni Mills. She is the Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion with BetterLesson, and an Education Consultant. I have had the pleasure of working with her at BetterLesson as one of their coaches. She is amazing. She works with colleagues, teachers, coaches and administrators to develop and sustain student-centered learning experiences that are diverse, inclusive and equitable. Afrika has been featured on podcasts, blogs, facilitated sessions at conferences across the US. She believes that all educators can be motivated, engaged, dynamic practitioners and leaders when provided with the support needed to create student-centered, anti-bias, anti-racist, culturally responsive learning environments that inspire wonder and creativity and nurture diversity, belonging, equity, and inclusion. I’m so excited for you to hear our conversation today which talks about a variety of things including Rudine Sims Bishop’s Windows & Mirrors strategy as well as what she’s been calling “performative partnership.”

Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change  like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Afrika, welcome to the Time for Teacher ship Podcast. I am so excited to have you on today. And I'd love it if you could just start us off by introducing yourself for our audience in whatever way feels relevant to you.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful to be able to share this space with you and I love your question. I've actually been listening to a podcast recently called Reclaiming my Theology. And the way that that host asks the questions when guests come on is: “Tell us what it means to be you.” And I'm like, I like that. Right? I like that. Because so often we really just launched into, like, you know, whatever our professional statistics about ourselves. So how I would introduce myself is that I'm a Christ follower, who was exploring what it means to practice my faith without advantaged or privileged culture characteristics which has been really, really very important for me. Very, very important part of my journey with regards to my faith. I consider myself an equity guardian. I am absolutely an introvert. People do not usually believe that about me because I present differently. But, well, for folks who are into Myers Briggs, I am an ISFJ. Legit like all the ways that that's described is really true of me. I am a writer. I am a wife to my best friend. My husband I've been married to for 23 years and you would think that we just met yesterday. I am the mother of young adults, which, like my son is about to be 18 in like a week and our daughter just turned 19 and so I’m  like whoa, this is like, we would be empty nesters kinda but the pandemic. So, like, not quite. But we're getting there. We're getting there, and then  also I’m a mom to my first baby rabbit. She is our beautiful—I think she's about eight years old. We rescued her and she is a pitbull boxer, and she's fantastic. So this is my fur baby. And then I'm also someone who loves stories, I love singing and laughing. And professionally, I'm the director of diversity, equity, and inclusion for BetterLesson.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I absolutely love that introduction. And I learned so much about you and you just sharing it in that way. Actually, I have a question. To follow up on one piece when you used the phrase equity guardian. Could you say more about that? I think this is my first time hearing that phrase.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, so I think I got the concept of initially I was thinking about, there's been a lot of talk about being an equity warrior. And so that's how I used to describe myself like yes, I'm going to war against systemic injustice and oppression and like, no, It doesn’t feel like it fits. I read a book a while ago by a man named Jim Wallis, who talks a bit about, like, you know, with regard to, like, race in Christianity. And he talked about the difference between being a warrior and a guardian. In that definition, I feel like there's an important distinction between the two because going to battle against something... I'm not saying that there's not a place for that and that people who described themselves that way. Or that's in any way wrong. Like, I think it's true for whoever it’s true for. But, for me, I'm just like, if I'm saying that I want to, to help to create and sustain equitable learning experiences or environments or any type of community. Then I want to be the one who's helping to guard that thing. There's another—there's a friend that I had a chance to meet a couple of years ago, named James Ford. He's an amazing, amazing educator and he talked about the importance of not focusing so much on what we want to tear down, that we don't spend enough time thinking about what we want to build. And so that's where that shift for me came from,  from equity warriors, equity guardians.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Thank you so much for explaining that.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): No problem. 

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): And so, the thing I want to start with here in terms of our questions for today, is this idea of thinking big. I think it’s really, really important to me and really important to folks who listened to the podcast. And I love Dr. Bettina Love’s idea of freedom dreaming that she describes as “dreams grounded in the critique of injustice.” So I'm curious to know, what is your big dream that you hold for the field of education?


Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yes, that's such an important question and I think I'd like I have so much love and respect for Bettina Love and her work. So I'm so glad to be able to—it's a privilege to be able to really like engage with that question. So for me, I feel like one of the things in, like, I'm very big you'll hear more about this a little bit more as we talked with them. I'm very big into Brene Brown. And so I'm like, so not in a way of like shame and guilt because I think in some ways, depending on how, like, people were thinking about that, it can be immobilized and so not in that way. But I feel like, with, it's only within the past couple of years, that I started to really think about what took place after the Brown versus Board of Education decision right so I—As you know, learning about the trauma that existed around that, around integrating black and brown bodies into white spaces and you know, communities that decided that they would rather close schools completely for every child than have any type of integration. Or how violently some, you know, some students were integrated. Or even thinking about Ruby Bridges as a six year old child what she faced going into the classroom and being her teachers only student for so long. Like I spent some time thinking about all of those things. But what I haven't thought about and I think I didn't start thinking about it honestly, until I I listened to a presentation by Chris Emden Who was talking about, like, the power of, like, the black community and black teachers. And he was the first one who, like, I'm not saying he's the first one to introduce the concept, but in this session was when I first started to think about what happened to the black teachers who are teaching black children after integration. And I was like, Oh, I've never thought about that. And I felt, like I said I'm not trying to be filled with shame, but like, I'm like, why didn’t I think about that? Right? But I'm really trying to think about that. I'm like, not only did black kids go through the trauma of being you know forcefully integrated if it even went that way. Right, depending on if they're actually able to go to school, Into white spaces. I think about how that manifested, even in Boston. Right? You know, in the 70s, right, like there's a lot of violence around that. And I'm like, yeah, and then trying to make the connection between, like, so many of us think about, like, We need to increase the pipeline of teachers of color. And how can we have so few black men in the classroom and how can we have some like so few black teachers? And I'm like, yeah, because what we did was, we disconnected that authentic learning that teaching and learning community that existed in the black community pre-Integration like we've never been able to recapture that and I think that we can with intention, because there's a lot that, that was so ingrained into, like, just really investing in kids and community. So for me, when I think about big dreams for me. I'm like, It's really getting to a point where we actually have a partnership between the schools and the students and the families and the communities. It's not about, like, coming into a community and rescuing children or, you know, like, trying to save children from their families and community. It's about, like, going alongside children and their families and communities and being like, we're going to engage curiosity and wonder and thinking and creativity and we're going to do that together. I would love to see learning go into that space. I think for it, like, for example, for me, when my kids were much younger, my husband and I put them in so they, they were enrolled in Montessori school. And I love them. I’m not saying that every school should be Montessori. I'm not saying that. But what I did appreciate about it was, that there was so, there was so much of a concept of, like, following the child. And they just loved school like it was just so you know, fill with exploration and just like what is it that the child is naturally curious about, following that and let them be the, the ones who were leading the learning and unfortunately, we weren't able to keep them in Montessori school because financially we shifted  And we didn't have money like that to keep them in without assistance. But yeah, I think that it is possible to stay engaged in learning that actually is filled with wonder and joy. So that's what my hopes are.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): That that's such a powerful hope and dream and what it makes me think about, are all the mindset shifts that are required to get to that place because that is describing a place that doesn't exist for most schools and many communities that are really, traditionally focused on how we've always done education. So I'm curious to know, what do you think are some of those mindset shifts that people have to kind of get through and buy into, and really adopt to fight for that dream?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think a lot of it has a foundation and some of the things that we talked about just a second ago. Because if we, like so many educators, if we, and I,  honestly, I want to say this. I think it's important to say.  Because I think there's so much teacher bashing that can happen. So I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be, like, educators, like, there's just so many floors. I'm not saying that. What I do believe still, feel like in my soul, I feel this Is that, like, in any group, there's going to be like a percentage of folks, who will be like, I'm not sure why you became a teacher. It doesn't seem like you like kids. But I really believe that doesn't show the minority of folks in that group, I believe that most of us enter into the field of education for really, very beautiful reasons. Right, whether it be because we enjoyed school or  We love kids or we really believe in the power of education and opportunity like there are so many reasons why so many of us became educators that are so pure and beautiful. Unfortunately though, like when we become teachers, a lot of what's not, what has not happened for us is that we haven't had most of, like, unless we had some type of extraordinary learning experience. Most of us did not have the opportunity to engage like anti bias anti racist culturally responsive and sustaining diverse equitable inclusive types of money experiences. And so, and we also don't get it in our teacher prep programs for the most part. And so then we come in with these really beautiful motivations around why we want to be a teacher but if we don't have the support in place to be able to really create these, you know, these experiences that they teach in the first place, then it's going to be really hard to put those things into practice. And so for me, I'll speak to my own experience like when I became a teacher, I'm like, I felt like I originally was in graduate school to become like a creative writer. I was working on a novel. And then I realized that I really wanted to teach. And I'm like, I went to graduate school to become a teacher. I did really well in my head PREP program, but when it came time for me to have my own class I was like, oh, there's a lot of stuff that I don't know. Like, it's not just this like knowledge transfer like you have to be able to build and sustain a community and all of these things. I think that the biggest mindset shift is really for us to be able to recognize that we're not becoming teachers to, like, save children from their families and communities. We're really trying to join alongside them as partners in a learning experience and building a learning community. And we also have to hold the fact that we didn't receive what we needed. And so, we have to do some co-learning with students. We have to learn the things we didn't learn. And then we have to be able to provide those things for our students as well.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I love that you called that co-learning because I'm also, I'm usually thinking, we have to unlearn, we have to undo all the things. But it's really a co-learning because a lot of times, I mean one, we're learning from our students in the same ways that they're learning from us, and that's important to name. But also this idea of, you know, students, depending on how old they are, I know I taught high school, they have been told this is what education is for so long. This is how teachers respond to me like we're learning or co-learning that together and we have to create that new reality that is really different from what we may be thought or saw on TV, for example of what education looks like.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Right so true.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): And so I'm curious about how we get there. So what are, kind of, the steps that we can take to make that dream happen to get teachers, I'm thinking about how we do all of that work that we've been talking about so far, what would you say is kind of the, the thing that you talk to teachers most about in this regard?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think, aside from like just really exploring that love, like, adopting that level of awareness about what it is that we did not receive. I think that's a really big shift that we have to initially, we have to take those steps to realize that that's what happened to us. And then also giving grace to the people who told us as well because it happened to them too, right, it's just been generationally. We have not been leaning into this type of work, but I think once we get to the level of awareness and in can do that in a healthy way without you know, like, I was talking about before, like not feeling shame because I honestly I think back to some of the things I did with the students that I taught, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, like I really wish I could go back and undo, undo like some of the things that I did. I had good intentions, but the intention doesn't always lead to great outcomes. Right? So just really being able to recognize going beyond that awareness. So really saying like, Okay, well, what does it take, not only do I have to go through my own learning, but if I am honest about the fact that I really have not, you know, aside, like some sometimes, I will talk about, like, family, community partnership, but a lot of times it looks more like okay, like before pre-COVID was more like, oh, make sure that parents come business chaperoning class trip so that they're contributing to the bake sale or selling gift wrapping paper. No. Cookie dough or whatever it is we're using to like raise funds, while we want them to come to conference night and literacy night and math night and to pick up the report cards and hear about all the things their students are not really doing so well necessarily. Like, that's not partnership. And so I think those steps are like really trying to operationalize our learning. So it's like okay well if learning, if what we've been trying to do all along has not been effective. And it hasn't been largely, right, when we talk about the goals that we have and how we try to get there. There's been a lot of misalignment. So if we realize that it's like, well, what do we need to do? What structures do we need to put into place to make sure we have the opportunity to continue that learning and to change our practices? Right? So if that looks like it could look like something so basic and I know some people might feel like this is not enough. Honestly, I feel like this is a massive first step. I think back to when I was a new teacher. And as a new teacher. I don't even mean just my first year. I mean, like, the first several years, because whenever you come into a space, you always like we're human beings, we want to belong. We don't want to be the one who's like, the wrong person doing something different, like, we want to be part of the community. And so I'd be in the teachers room or making copies and I would hear veteran teachers saying something—and not everybody, so I just definitely want, like, I totally am genuinely not trying to teacher bash. But there are some folks who are, who have gotten kind of jaded around the way they think about teaching and learning and kids and their families. And so, there'll be a lot of times where people will say things to me about kids in their families. And in my heart I'd be like, that's not right. That's like mean, or like if that, if there was something about me or my family. I would feel a certain type of way or even feel genuinely like if they knew me well enough, they would know that they actually were talking about me and my family. Because my thing, like, I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, my family was beautiful. I just, you know, and they still are. And I think that, but that's not something that was always celebrated In my school community. Like there was a lot more focus on like the deficit and the challenges. And something like, a lot of times people will say things and I'm like, you don't even really know that you're talking about, like, my cousin or my uncle. Right, like or like a sibling or something like that. So I think just even having the courage to speak up in the face of people saying things that are not necessary, like, that like deficit based just really having the courage to try to shift the narrative. I think even something, like, that can be really powerful because it lets people know who you are, what you stand for. And then you will also find your allies right or your co conspirators or your, you know, your comrades. Your accomplices and you'll start to really be able to work together to really get that work done. But I think we have to have courage to speak up against messed up things.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I can relate to so much of that just hearing it. And then for me, remaining silent and then feeling like, why was, why didn't I say something where, where was that? And I think it's so powerful what you're speaking to, that idea of belonging, like, wanting to fit in, especially as a new teacher and you know, being taught the rope, so to speak, right. And just having to follow that versus this is what I truly believe in, this is what I need to say, this is what I want the school to become and I believe it can become that. And trying to find that community of people who will kind of be with you and that is, is critical and also difficult, especially as a new teacher.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Really, so I think about that too, like this, like I talked about hearing from Chris Emden before he tells a story like that. So, and when he became a teacher that people would come to him and tell him like don't smile at your students until December. And he'd be like, that seems messed up. Right? But you're a veteran teacher. Oh, like, well, you know, I'm new. Maybe there's something you know that I don't know. But then, as he goes he’s like no, that is messed up! That’s just unkind. Like, how are you going to connect with somebody if you just wouldn't even show them something as basically decent as a smile. So you're so right, so right.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): That's such a great example of another one that we've all heard, I think. So I know that you talk a lot about the importance of students having both windows and mirrors and the curriculum so referencing routine Sims bishops windows mirrors inside and sliding glass doors. So I'd love if you could just share a little bit more about this framework, you know, what, what you think the value is that it brings to the table and how educators specifically can, can use it in their lens of designing curriculum and teaching classrooms.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think probably, like, we were talking about a little bit earlier was, I think we need to first recognize what are our own windows in here. So just, like, going into the concept a bit more, the windows are what we gaze through to discover other perspectives and other experiences and other, you know, other ways of being and other histories, right. So that's why we’re looking through the window. To see something other than ourselves or what, you know, other than what we've experienced. And then the mirror being what reflects who we are not different parts of identities back to ourselves, right. So we need to make sure that students have the opportunities to experience both in our, in our, in our learning communities. But before we can do that. It's just like, well, no one really ever asked me what my windows and mirrors were, like, I need to really spend some time thinking about that. Like what are things that I feel like represent me and all the different things that make me Afrika. Right? And what are some things that I really would like to have learned that I never had a chance. Tomorrow I should just really like thinking about that. And then thinking about what that night. I'm not only thinking about what that means for our students, but also, asking them, because I think that's a big part of what we're missing in education. We don't ask kids anywhere near enough questions and I don't mean assessments, like, I'm totally not talking about like state assessments or even like, the one I feel like all the more helpful and informative like formative assessments. Those are really important. But I don't even mean that I mean like, how are you experiencing this learning community and what do you think about what we have one deck to learn this year? And is what do you think might be missing or how would you want to learn this? Right, if this is something that you feel like you would want to learn. So I think we'll be hearing from students because of some of the mistakes we can make. I know I've made it where I get a new concept or framework. I'm just like, yes, students, the windows and mirrors. Let me determine them for the students. I'm like, No, that's not the right way to go. We need to hear from them, right, because otherwise we're imposing our own view of who the students are on them and it's still not authentic. So I think that's the piece, too. But I think one of, it’s not enough to just be like, yeah, because, because we can think about it, when it comes to black and brown kids with students who are from marginalized backgrounds. Marginalized backgrounds, where we can say, okay, yeah. Like, we want to make sure that we provide those opportunities for them. But it's like, yeah, we need to think about it a bit more deeply that Black and Brown kids and kids from marginalized groups are oftentimes looking through way too many windows. Right. It's like you're learning about all types of people I think about this to like even because I grew up in a family that was like, working class and my family. Now, I don't even know we are because of student loan debt. Like we still have a we have a house. But we got to doing the subprime mortgage crisis. So I don't even know what I am economically, but when I think about it, even with, like, I binge watch shows and I watch like you know people in different houses and sometimes it's like I want to live in a house that big! Like, I want to go on vacation, like when we have the opportunity to go on vacation again. And so that kind of stuff to like just really being mindful of like how those things show up for me. But so just, just knowing too, like, just hearing from students like what are some of the things that you would like to learn more about. And then I think when it comes to making sure Black and Brown kids get to see way more representation of themselves and not just from the perspective of like oh yes, like your people went through such hardship and enslavement and civil rights and Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Harriet Tubman it's just like, true, those are parts of the story and very important parts of the story, but those are not the only parts of the story. So, right. So if we're talking about black and brown cases it can only be about oppressive things and suffering and needs to be about like, what does it fully mean to be you. Which is why you're opening the question. It resonates still with me. Like, what does it mean to be you? But then also thinking about like our white students too it's just like, yes, you know, I don't know. You probably have seen that graphic that talks about the lack of diversity in children's books like between 2012 right? In 2015 and 2018 how it went from like, like, white kids in like 93% of children's books in 2012 about, like, featuring white kids. And then even when we got like, the data shifted it more. So it didn't go to black and brown kids it went more like animals and trucks right like less about white kids, but not quite about other kids too. But just really giving white students an opportunity to like, to really see, like, they need more opportunities to look through windows and hear more and learn more about other perspectives and histories and you know, and interest and all those things. But not only that, it's also to hear like, to learn more about themselves. Like, what does it mean to be white? And I think about that too because we talked a lot about being culturally responsive there. You know, the black and brown kids like, they really need to be able to enjoy being proud of themselves and where they come from. I was like yeah but then when we need to explore more. What does it mean for white kids because they're like, can I say that I love being white? No, that would not go well. I said I like being white, but then what does that mean with something like diversity, am I not part of that? Right? And so it's just like really being able to show why students, like, yes, not trying to, like, you know, so water it down. Like when we look at colonization, when we look at some of the things that have happened It's not good, right, some of those things are really, we still are seeing the effects of systemic oppression. And at the same time, there are white people historically who have fought against white who have worked alongside folks and who have been abolitionists, and who have been really fighting for, you know, really, the humanization of all of us, right? Because we think about how racialization has harmed us all. I think, like the concept of windows and mirrors provides us with such a powerful frame.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I love so much of that because it goes deeper than what is typically shared when we talk about windows and mirrors. So that self awareness piece right off the bat, I'm just thinking and conversations I facilitated with educators, we don't usually start there. We don't usually start with this introspective, you know, series of questions. And it's interesting because I know in some of the work you're doing, you're asking, you know, white educators who grew up in predominantly white neighborhoods like, what was that experience like? And when you asked me, it took a while I remember. I remember, I think you had said maybe 30 minutes to answer these questions. And it took me a few hours because I was, like, the mental energy to go back and actually think about it, when it wasn't being, these questions weren't surfaced in the moment like when I was in school. And to be able to retrospectively with what I know now, go back and say, huh, what was that experience actually like? What were we talking about? What weren't we talking about? What media was I consuming? It was really difficult. And I think that just speaks to the need for what you're saying. You know we need that self reflection first before we dive in and say, again with that teacher lens, here's exactly what the windows and mirrors will be, I will tell you. So that voice of students also being critically important. And I also think about that to some of the things that you were talking about like, the broadening of the experience, also just Crenshaw’s idea of intersectionality too. So, that idea that rate, like all people of a particular race are not monolithic, like, there are these varied experiences and so sometimes I hear teachers say, oh, well, there was this really great book. You know that, that centers, whatever race they're trying to center, but it's still heteronormative. It still says gender. It's still all the things that now we have a slice of, like, this,  this other window. But there are so many more still reflecting probably mirrors for different folks that have always had mirrors, you know, and I think that's an interesting component to that. Like, how do we dive deeper into what windows and mirrors actually mean? And how do we encourage educators to think about it even deeper than just that surface level that I think has been popularized a bit more lately.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think that's when I think of the other piece. This is something I've really been thinking quite a bit about, and I don't understand why this is a push, but I think we need to really explore the way that this can manifest, is that there's been a lot of conversation about like diversifying the teaching staff diversifying like students need to see people who look like them. Like, I totally agree. And, right, so we need to be able to hold them to it on both ends. We also need to be mindful of how rationalization and internalized oppression shows up in people from marginalized groups. And I'll just keep the focus on myself and everybody has to tell their own story. But for me, I grew up in, like, you know, like where school was like a space for me like I love school I did so well in school. And I just grew up with that perception of myself. Like I had, you know, gone into first grade early, so I was like a five year old first grader and then I skipped the eighth grade. So I was really young graduating from high school. So, of course, it was like Afrika you’ve done this before, I started, like, challenging the concept of smart, but it was like, oh, I forgot. You're so smart, you're so smart. So in my head, I'm like, oh, that's it. What you have to do is focus on school then everything will be fine. And then, so when I went into being a classroom teacher, that's the perspective that I brought in with me, and so I'm just like, yeah. So now, what does that mean? That means classroom management. That means you are controlled in my room in my space right it's happened to me pretty quickly. And it was like when I look back, I'm like, I hate that that's how I approach creating like, well, I don't even know what to call it like an effective learning space. Thankfully, I was able to really still have really strong relationships with my students with them so they are so gracious, so gracious to me and I really like I still maintain relationship with a lot of my former students, but I think it's really important for us to think about like as Black and Brown people if you're in that if since we are in school systems that are largely based on like an advantaged or privilege, you know, culture characteristics and if those of us who are people of color who are marginalized folks have bought into that we bought into the system and how to play the game. Then that means that we're not quite equitable either right or we're not necessarily seeing things the way we need to either. So I think it's about all of us really being able to make sure we have the right mindset when it comes to how we think about teaching and learning.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I love that. And I, I want to go back to, to a point you made about the importance of asking the students about the windows and mirrors. How do you strike that balance between asking students for, you know, what are your book recommendations? What are the stories that you want to hear? And also, like, not putting so much of the work on the students to come up with that because Hassan Kwame Jeffries, does the teaching hard history podcast. And there was that one episode where he was talking about his child being asked to like, the teacher taught something about a historical figure that was inaccurate. I think it was Rosa Parks and he that he had his child actually spoke up and said, after a conversation with dad, and was like, hey, this isn't quite right. And the teacher offered the opportunity to teach the class. Which to him at first was like, okay, great, but then later, he was like, I actually realized that that's the teacher’s work that she needs to do. And then bring, like, the student was able to shout it out. Now, the teacher needs to go do the work. Bring it back presented and invite conversation. But I guess my question is, how do we achieve that balance of inviting student voices? And then also not putting everything on students?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think that's an important consideration because so much of what I'm mindful of about this work is that once you know once you awareness is right, it's kind of like, I don't know if you watch the movie “The Matrix”, like, once you're aware of what's happening like, wait, this is terrible. And we got to fight this. Right? And you just, you want to end it immediately. It's like, y eah, but you can't go. You're not going to be able to because something that has taken centuries to set up is when it takes some time to reimagine, right. And to dismantle and reshape right. So I think part of it is that students and their families and community, I think that's why we also have to make sure we're balancing is not on the students what we want to hear from their families to and from the communities too is being aware of, like, what the topics are right. And even, like, you know, I think it's great that the student was able to help the teachers to raise their awareness and be like, actually, this is not accurate with that because it takes a lot of, you know, humility and vulnerability to be able to get that feedback from students. But I think a lot of it is that like not trying to, I think, sometimes it comes up where it's like, oh, well, this is the mistake I made, and we're really trying to make sure things are relevant. Let's go ahead and give the opportunity for students to engage. It's like, yeah, but like their parents said, my child is not being paid to teach this class, that's your job. So I think there's part of it where it's like we're going to need to be able to accept that we’re not be able to change the whole curriculum all at one time. That's why I think it's so important when we think about doing this work that we're not thinking about doing it alone. I really believe that it has to be the work of like grade level teams and content teams and instructional coach teams and administrative teams and the school site council, which hopefully in the most, like, in the best circumstances, involves family and community members, where we can set up a plan to say alright, so here's how we would like to shift things over the next three to five years. It is hard because we're not trying to say we want to do messed up things to kids in part and then do, like, better things. Like we're not trying to say that, but I think also just really holding ourselves to the fact that it's going to take some time to really, to address a lot of the things that have happened that are unjust and that are, that are oppressive. And so I think holding that and just being able to determine like here's how we're going to roll this out over time. Because I think when we start, you know, trying to, like, change things immediately. That's what we started doing making some of those moves and it's not really the best people. It reminds me, so I'm like, I don't know if you've ever seen that it was on the Internet by, I think the boy's name is King and he's a fourth grader and he wrote this paper about Columbus and he was just like, I'm not, you know, like, you’re teaching me the wrong thing about Columbus and I'm not, this is wrong, my parents told me that Christopher Columbus did all these things wrong and he was in fourth grade. I was like alright little man, I appreciate that. But the teacher's response was the way she actually, like, her response was not supportive. Let's say she had had the right, let's say she had had a response, which was like, all right, King tell us what you know about Christopher Columbus. King could have been, like, not my job, right. So I think it's about, like, raising awareness and then it might be when can we start to, when can I, as an instructor, when can I work with my team to restructure what we're going to read or how we're going to approach this content. And trying to look at, look at doing it together and not just putting it on the students and their family to do the teaching because that's not a partnership, passing it off to someone else to do, is not a partnership. So I think really thinking about what does partnership look like?

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): There's so much there too, in terms of what you said with, like, the vulnerability of the teacher to be able to say, yep, I was wrong. You're right. Thank you. And creating the space to be able to have that student say that without fear of reprisal from the teacher, you know, teacher, you are wrong. So there's that dynamic there. And then I love that, that returning to partnership, what is truly a partnership is not, “This is on you”. It is collaborative, it is sustainable over time. It is that work in teams. It is the commitment to do better. Like, absolutely. I love that. I feel like that's the theme of the episode is this partnership.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): I'm curious to know about just, you know, the, the overwhelm that, that something like that could and has I think a lot of teachers have said this has felt for them. This is an overwhelming shift because our, our entire education system is steeped in white supremacy and just having to unpack that, dismantle that, recreate and build, and all of that stuff is, is a lot. And so, in terms of a starting point of feeling, like, momentum building, where do you recommend that teachers who are interested in doing this work actually start? What resources would you suggest they check out to kind of get the ball rolling?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think, I mean an ideal world, and I know we're not in an ideal world, especially right now because I definitely want to name that in the midst of a pandemic, like, that it's completely overwhelming to think about, like, just in general what teaching and learning. Like what it means to create an effective mind community without there being a worldwide pandemic and then we add the pandemic. On top of that, like, my god. Wow, like where to even begin. You know, my, I'm just trying to make sure that my students are actually being able to—whether in a hybrid way or what way—like trying to make sure that I'm able to connect with my students let alone, trying to shift the fundamental way that I'm teaching. I think the main lesson, so ideally what would be great is if teachers had the support of administrators. So I do want to just definitely make a plug for administrators, being able to create those spaces for teachers to be like, yep, I know that things are challenging. I know that things are hard. But what we are going to do is we're going to dedicate a staff meeting per month, or we, I would like for the focus of a content, you know, team meeting or grade level needs to be about like taking a look at a specific unit or specific lesson is coming up in like how what is a shift that you can make to make sure that this content is, you know, is considerate and inclusive. And just really being able to have a dedicated time and space to do that because I think a lot of times, educators whether it be like adopting a new set of standards or new writing curriculum or math curriculum or social stuff like all the different shifts that we make, or you know what new way of assessing students or, there's so many shifts that we make. So we know what that feels like to have something that we need to become you know acclimated to that it is hard. And at the same time, we are so like, we are, we have done these hard things for a long time. And so we are, I think, my thing is that I would really encourage folks to not think of anti racist education as something that is actually the hardest thing among other hard things we've done. I think it is hard in the sense that we have not been practiced in it. So there is some nature of it that is more difficult, especially emotionally because we have to navigate with us. I'm not saying that that part isn't hard, but I think that once we get to that final, that, that foundational awareness and we can do it just like we've done other hard things. So, like, okay, not ideal to have to just hold out a whole new set of standards, but, good. So, but we can do it right. So what does it look like to create structures. And then when I think about resources, one of the resources I love so much is teaching tolerance. And I want to just name this too, because I'm, I know this came up before in a way that surprised me. And I'm like, oh, I probably should have seen this coming but there was actually a time that I was in a conversation with a potential partner and she was like, yeah, I don't really want to do this work with you because you use teaching tolerance resources and I don't want to just be tolerated. I don't think that that's enough. And I was like, oh, unfortunately, that message came to me through someone else. I didn't have a chance to really talk about it with her. And I'm like, actually, teaching tolerance is grappling with their name right, like, when, when they were created when they're the first, the organization first started tolerance was progressive right but now that we're in this time when we like, I think about the two. I don't want to be tolerated. But what they're facing as an organization is like if we change our name, do we lose connection with the people who have come to rely on these resources if we call ourselves something different. So I do want to name that the word tolerance can be off putting. But know that the organization itself is grappling with what does that look like for them for the future? But just having said that, like the fact that they create so many supportive resources, whether it be the social justice standards that you know K through 12 was, really spells out what does it mean to support students around identity diversity, justice and action? And it’s modules like, everything's free right? Like, you can just, like, download all these resources and really take a deep dive into it. So I think even something like that. It's like saying, okay, this grade level team is going to take a dive into identity. This grade level team might take a dive into diversity, like we're all going to like, jump the jigsaw. This and then we're going to find some ways to like, share with us that we're learning so that we can move this forward and I really do appreciate when they are like free high quality resources. I know some things are free and not great but, these are resources that are like, it's like the articles that come out. All the different like all the different curricular pieces that, are they, I think, trying to, like, look into those resources and see, like, what, what can we choose that we're going to use to try to make a shift. And then we work on those things together, we keep doing that. Yeah, we keep doing that work.

​Lindsay Lyons (she/her): That is so interesting. I did not know that teaching tolerance was grappling with their name because I've had that same thought of, interesting choice of name for such a progressive organization that does grapple with these things in the content they put out. Yes, super interesting to know.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I just sent you the link. They actually have a link to a letter that was written by one of the directors. Where there's a Google form like a Google form you can fill out. So give your thoughts about the name and anything that you think that you might recommend. So yeah, I can send you, I can send you that link. I think that's really helpful. Yeah.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Oh, that's awesome. And then I can include it in the post too. I can get in here.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): So in terms of this idea of living out our values of justice and equity as as educators, I think so much of so much of this work is, kind of, that balance of introspection, which you've been talking a lot about like looking inside deepening that awareness, I think, is the language you use is awareness and also taking action. I think sometimes there's a rush to action without the awareness that is not helpful, but you know, that idea of awareness plus action or awareness, then action right is really important. Once people end this episode, and they go into their educator lives, what is something that you would recommend that they do, or can do right away in terms of moving from awareness to action?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): I think one of the main things is it could be something formal. Like, I know the panorama has these resources around like you know, surveying students and finding out like, how they're feeling about, like, equity in the school and how families are feeling about, you know, so there's, there's those free resources as well. But it doesn't even have to be like that formal i don't think. I think they really, just reaching out if educators are not already doing this because I definitely want to like, definitely want to just say that I know that there are educators who are already doing this. Sometimes, though, when folks are newer on their journey about this topic in particular. One of the really important steps that can be taken is to find out like okay well what is it the students, like, how are you experiencing this one and community. It's going to be interesting responses, I think, in the midst, obviously, in the midst of a pandemic. But I think even outside of that, like, not just about the pandemic, but just thinking about, like, what it is that we're learning? What excites you about this? Well, there's some things that you're learning about outside of the classroom that you wish were parts of what we learned about here. Like I know like, you know, I talked about my own children. But they would always come home and tell me all kinds of stuff. And of course, they were like, we don't want you to email the teachers, Mom. It’s like look, I'll do it sometimes and sometimes I won't. Right, sometimes I can't help myself. But I think they will come home and they have so many opinions about how the learning community could be better or who could be different or things can be emphasized or deemphasized, right? So I think that really, a really good first step is just asking the question because I feel like there's a couple of things that are accomplished there. Not only do you get the information that you might not have had otherwise, or sometimes we get, I don't know if you went through it too back when I first became a teacher. I'm just like, yeah, you give the students a getting to know you survey at the beginning of the school year. But then I never did anything with it. I just, like, collected them, put them in a drum, like what, why did I even, right, if I'm not going to use it. But I think, so there's the benefit of actually learning authentic things from students and potentially their families. If you go into the teachers lower educators, going to the families as well, not only do we get the information, but we also send the message that I care what you think. And I care how you’re feeling, and I care how you feel in this space. And do you feel like this is, like, you're part of what we're doing? Or do you feel like you're just the recipients? Right. It's like you just want to, you want me to come and sit in the zoom room or in the classroom, like all those different other things. Do you just want me to sit and quietly listen to you or you want me to collaborate with my classmates when you tell me to collaborate? Or even like, some of the things that I saw was, like, heartbreaking. You may have seen some of these things to when we started going into a remote approach to teaching and learning where there were like these big lists of, like, you may not wear pajamas, you may not eat food, you must have your camera on, you must have a blank wall and back. And you're like, how, how, like is a child supposed to feel. So just like just really taking the steps to ask you this, how they're feeling and what, not only how they're feeling, but what is it that you want to learn that’s missing? And just actually like listening to them and trying to see where like, you're not going to be able to incorporate everything but you can incorporate some right? So I think that's a really great, like, easy next step right. It's not going to take too much, it just takes will. It takes will and time to ask those questions.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): One of the things that sticks out to me is, I was just reading about adaptive leadership and turbulence theory. Which I am from the student voice field of scholarship and so Dana Meter has this pyramid of student voice. And she's like, at the bottom, we have this most frequent thing which is serving with students at the in between. We have this idea of, like, partnership between youth and adults and at the top we have building capacity for student leadership and I always loved that pyramid. But then, after years later, I think she partnered with another scholar to map onto this idea of turbulence theory which I was not familiar with. And basically what they came up with is when you just survey your students, when you leave it, like, as the first, you know, beginning day, here's the survey to get to know my students, and then I don't do anything with it and I don't build capacity and I don't partner with students, it actually increases the turbulence or discomfort, because you're enabling students that have this place where they think they have voice and then they share their ideas and it goes nowhere and then you just have kind of chaos ensue, because you've given them the platform and then not built any capacity for yourself or them to do anything with it versus when you partner or you build capacity for students to take on a regular leadership role like on an ongoing basis. Here's what I want to learn. This is how I want to choose to learn today. You actually decrease the turbulence, because there's this idea of you know I'm constantly knowing ways that I can lead in the class and I know that there's action taken as a result of what I'm saying. So I just connected with what you were saying so much because that's, I think that's exactly what's been happening in classes when it's like, oh, we give them voice, but it's like what type of voice, and in what way? 

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): It was like you didn't really mean it, like you just said. You know what it reminds me of? Like, I know we've heard this term quite a bit, especially since you know the murders of like Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd is, you know, people just like, yeah, I'll put up a black square on Instagram or on my social media. Or I will, I will, you know, put out a Black Lives Matter statement. And we started hearing a lot more about, like, performative ally ship. Right? It's almost like that's, like, performative partnership was just like, I gave you a survey. It's like, yeah, but you didn't really, like, I told you I poured my heart out about how much I love learning about dinosaurs and you never mentioned it to me again, we never learned, like, what was the point of asking right? Yeah.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Oh my gosh, I'm so sad for that hypothetical child, he loves dinosaurs now. So I know that you have been working. You're always working on things you've been working on so many things and one of the things I know you've been talking about a bit more is about, and you mentioned that in, in the podcast today, but this idea of teaching white students and I just wanted to pause and give you a moment to say anything else that we didn't get to talk about today in this work. And this stuff you've been thinking about in regard to that specific domain of teaching.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, I feel like there's so much like possibility and promise there because like I was talking about before, it’s really important for teachers to go through this foundational learning as well. And it's just like yeah, like, when we talk about racialization, or we think about systemic oppression or how that shows up in learning spaces, it's just like yeah you, and I'm not saying, William Ward Garrison didn't have his challenges because there was a lot of paternalism going on with him. I get that. But I'm just like, when we think about, like, the abolitionist movement or we think about like you know, like Sarah and Angelina Grimke or we think about, like, all the different folks like Jane Elliott. There are so many white folks who were just like, yeah, no, this is not okay. Right? And at great risk to themselves as far as like their societal standing or their connection to their families or any of those things. Like in the face, like we're willing to sacrifice that because they believed in something more important, right, that it was more important that they, they really fight to make sure that we are not supporting oppression right? And the different ways that that manifested by the different people who were able to do it to different levels, depending on the times we were in, are going to do a bit differently now than it would have done it in the 1850s. Right? And so, thank God, right? Like we progressed and things like that. But I think that's the piece, too, is like showing white students that it's possible. So really challenge this narrative that they're often given right that, you know, basically, it's not even necessarily. It's not like in some places intentional, but I think a lot of time. So, like, if you're a teacher, and you're just picking a whole bunch of children's books and the children's books happen to have all white kids in it, I don't think a lot of teachers are sitting down and being like, I only want children's books with white kids in it, but the impact is that it shows white kids like okay like basically I'm the one that is to be centered and everyone else is not quite normal. Right? And then we can try to do things to kind of you know, like, try to make folks feel included somewhere. But that's the thing that we do in February, right, like during Black History Month. Oh, we talked about that on, you know, in January on Martin Luther King's birthday or maybe you know, around, now, when we're thinking about, like, oh yeah its indigenous peoples day instead of Columbus Day, like we are right now it's like, okay, what do we really think about Thanksgiving is, you know, like, all that type of stuff. Like, we don't want it to be incidental with white students being able to have a different understanding or an accurate understanding of their place in the world right and so it's not. And I think that's the piece, too. I think some people get afraid when we think about, like, antiracist education. Even just, like, seeing like, the executive order that came out around, like, that it's not okay. Like, it's not even permissible for federal, you know, organizations to even have this PD. And this is like, no, we're not trying to tell white kids like you're horrible or like you’re bad, like, we just want you to be able to see the world as it truly is and should be. And so I think that's the thing that I would say that is so much promise and being able to, you know, to have kids have the opportunity to really see themselves in others in the most beautiful way that they should. That's what I really feel like, that's why I feel excited about that work.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): James Tyson and Bree Newsome is like a great example of modern day, like, what does that look like to decenter yourself and still work for racial justice? And I think, you know, the teachers, especially white teachers, teaching white students, like, that's that's you. Right? You are the person who can be and, like, a person that they know who lives into this idea of whiteness, not as an oppressor but as a co-conspirator. 

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yes, I’m excited about, like you mentioned, James Tyson and Bree Newsome like those are my people, just like even because I didn't realize the extent of the story until I read between the loves book. And once I read the account, I was like, what, oh, yes, yes, this is it. Like these are the stories that we need to be selling. Right? 

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. And I know there are so many different things that you have mentioned today in terms of resources, what other resources or podcasts or things that you've been listening to or learning through would you recommend for listeners?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Yeah. So for me, what I've been thinking a lot about, I mean, there's a couple of things with regards, like I mentioned in the beginning about me explain, like, what is Christianity absent white supremacy culture characteristics, that's a big part of what I'm doing and what I'm listening to and reading. So there's a podcast called Reclaiming my Theology for other folks who might be curious about what that looks like as well. But when it comes to, like, thinking about myself as, like, an education leader, I've been really enjoying, like, I enjoyed reading Brene Brown Dare to Lead when it first came out, but then also listening to the podcast, because I feel like being able to you know, like, you read something like, yeah, that was great. But then you could forget a lot, right, if you're not applying it actively. So really I’ve been, like, listening to that podcast but then her Unlocking Us podcast as well. And it's just been really so phenomenal. Even the one that I listened to most recently was when she interviewed Priya Parker, who wrote The Art of Gathering and was talking about, like, what does it mean to gather. What does it mean to engender belonging. And so those are a couple of things that I've been like reading and listening to lately. And one of the things that I downloaded that I haven't read yet but then I'm excited about is Priya Parker like thinking about what it means to gather, particularly during a pandemic, where a lot of our gathering is taking place remotely. Like what is, how is remote gathering different than in, different and the same in a lot of ways, than in person gathering or as in person gathering? So those are some of the things I've been thinking about most recently, and so, like, some of it goes beyond, you know, the education in particular, but as for me, it's like I said, it’s the foundation of who I am as a person and then I bring that into the work that I do with educators. So I think all of that connects for me.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Awesome, so there's, there's so much that we've talked about and I imagine that listeners are going to want to continue to touch base with you. So just to kind of quickly recap, we've talked about the ideas of partnership, we've talked about that self awareness as being really critical before we take that action, right, awareness, then action. We've talked about the importance of teamwork and administrators, creating the space for the work. We've talked about, kind of that depth of windows and mirrors. We've talked about the importance of white students and redefining whiteness in a way that is anti oppressive and I love that you reference, like, I think I wrote down we can do hard things. Right? Like this is hard work, but we can do hard things. So I think so many listeners are gonna want to continue these amazing conversations with you and continue to follow your work, which I know you're always sharing on social media. So I'm curious where can listeners learn more about you or connect with you online?

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Oh, absolutely. So for folks who are on Twitter, my Twitter handle is AfeniMills so A, F as in Frank, E, N as a Norman, I, and my last name Mills, all one word. You can definitely reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn. You can just look up. If you look at my name, you'll be able to find me there. I've also created for folks who are on Facebook. I have the Afrika Afeni Mills Equity Guardian Facebook page that if you're on and look that up, you should be able to find me. And I do try to keep, like, I'm like, I don't have my own website yet, but that's where I do like, put a lot of my work so that people can find it. Those are the main places I will say that people can connect with me.

Lindsay Lyons (she/her): Thank you so much. I know we're probably over the time that we planned to talk, I just appreciate all that you have shared today, Afrika. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Afrika Afeni Mills (she/her): Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.


Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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The name of this podcast is Time for Teachership. But what is teachership? Today, we're diving into the scholarship and the practice behind this term.

Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture, where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

I'm so excited to talk to you today on this solo show about my dream for teachership. I use the word teachership in the podcast title, and I'd love to just comment a little bit on what that looks like and why it's a dream for me. So here is the dream. I think it would be great if all educational institutions had teachers along with other stakeholders (students, family members) have leadership roles in the school. And then also the leader roles like administrators in the school are deeply connected to what's going on in the classes in terms of class instruction and pedagogy and curriculum. So I get this from Steinbacher-Reed and Rotella who came up with this term “teachership.” This is not a term of my own making. They say, and this is a quote from them. I'll read their description. 

“Teachership weaves exceptional, leading with exceptional teaching. It emerges when administrators engage in classroom based professional learning and exemplary teachers lead from within the classroom by working together to tackle the unique challenges of teaching and leading administrators and teachers can develop a deep level of understanding for other roles. The end result is administrators and teachers who work with one another to improve school culture, teaching practices, and student learning.” 

That's the end of the quote, but I just wanted to share a little bit about what teachership actually means. And I love that it's this idea on the one hand that everyone can be leaders. Teachers are leaders, certainly in this space, all stakeholders can be leaders, but there's also this idea that people in formal positions of leadership, administrators, principals, assistant principals, instructional coaches, superintendents are also intimately connected to what is going on in the classroom. They're part of those coaching conversations. Part of defining what our curriculum and pedagogy should look like and really working closely with educators to help them achieve the dreams that they have for themselves. And they're able to articulate it for themselves. 

Now, in terms of how we actually make this happen. I think it's great to have big dreams, but I always want to go through kind of a step-by-step what does this actually look like in practice so that it can be actionable for us. I pulled again from Steinbacher-Reed and Rotella's research in scholarship, and they talk about “professional sandboxes.” So they refer to professional sandboxes as these learning opportunities for teachers and administrators to develop this practice of teachership, here's a quote from them on these ideas of professional sandboxes and what they look like in practice. 
They say, “Sandboxes are designed along a continuum of intensity, focusing on improving culture practice and learning. Professional sandboxes are a shift from traditional professional development activities towards intentional and systemic professional learning. No two professional sandboxes are the same yet. They all share the following key characteristics: [they’re] Intentional, Contextual, Sustainable, and Evidence-Based.” 

So this idea of sandboxes that Steinbacher-Reed talks about here—this is a quote from her work actually in, in 2016—she talks about this idea of professional sandboxes to really say, we're not talking about a regular PD workshop here. A one-time I attended it, check the box kind of thing, where the binder of paper kind of lives in your desk or closet for years. And it doesn't really get translated into practice. That's not the kind of professional learning we're talking about. It's more intentional, she says, and also systemic. So when we think about those key characteristics, that it's intentional, that it's sustainable, which I think connects to that systemic piece, that it is contextual. So every person, every educator is going to need something different and unique. That is context dependent. It might be the grade that they teach or the content area that they teach, or just, you know, what is interesting to them or where they need to grow.

Everyone has different areas for growth. So that context is also really important there. The idea is that it should be evidence-based. It should be based on what we know from the research works for our kids. It shouldn't be this full-on innovation with no research backing, but it's kind of a blend of creativity, innovation, thinking outside the box and what works for each individual learner. We talk about personalized PD on the podcast, you know, what does that look like? But also how does that balance with what we know from the research base? What we know is rooted in educational evidence as we move into this episode, and we think about this context of teachership and professional sandboxes as a way to develop teachership and our school communities. Let's first dive into this idea of teachers as leaders in the field. Teachers, I think, have great potential to lead as they say “from their classroom.”

So this idea of teachers leading professional development in their own schools, I have had a lot of success as a teacher leader in that position where I was invited to lead numerous PDs at my own high school that I was teaching at. And I've also seen teachers present to me and, and received PD from other teachers, both in my school and outside of my school. That was some of the most powerful PD that I had ever experienced because it was specific to what I needed because I was often asked to sign up for it or let people know what I was interested in. And then I was connected with a person who could help me with that particular goal of mine. Often, this person was in a similar context, teaching a similar grade level, or just had similar ideas about pedagogy and what that could look like in the classroom.

These were incredibly helpful things for me in my experience. And I'd love to see them really flourish in other school communities. So inviting teachers to lead PD and encouraging teachers to attend PD led by other teachers. Another piece here where teacher-led PD really flourished both in, in my experience of delivering PD and facilitating it as well as my ability to, as I said, connect with teachers that were doing things that I wanted to do were conferences. So these conferences could be kind of those large paid-for conferences that we might think about when conferences first come to mind. But for me, I was luckily teaching at a high school that was part of a network, two different networks, actually that had really unique characteristics. One was focused on project-based learning and less standardized testing. And then another was specific to the population of students that we were teaching in our schools, but both of them led very specific context-based, very relevant, conferences that were inevitably, always led by teachers in the field from these other schools.

So conferences are a great way to highlight teacher successes to build up that kind of formalized sense of teacher leadership in the sense that you're sharing and facilitating and being really a thought partner with other teachers in the field, connecting with teachers and leaders in other spaces across school districts, states, countries, and a great way to, to hear other people's strategies and share your own. Also, engaging in PLCs (Professional Learning Communities). These could be formal in the sense that, you know, grade teams and department teams are often spaces where teachers can connect with one another and really be part of a weekly or monthly kind of regular ongoing conversation that's set up by the school. But it could also be that you find three colleagues at your school, or even, you know, three colleagues that are not part of your school community, but just people that, you know, maybe you went to school with them.

They're now teaching in different schools and you engage in ongoing meetings with them to talk about whatever it is you're interested in talking about. And it could be that you meet up with these folks from different schools to focus on a topic of interest. Maybe you're all interested in a particular tech tool or a particular book that you want to read and have kind of a book club about whatever it is engaging in that work together can be very powerful work. Another option is inviting teachers into your class to visit. Now this can work in a physical setting, but it could also work to pop into someone's Zoom classroom if you're remote or in kind of a hybrid situation, but inviting someone into your class and letting folks know you are interested in being a teacher leader in modeling something that they might be interested in trying, and also demonstrating that component of leadership that is so important of learning as leading and leading is learning.

So being able to go into someone else's space to learn from them and really modeling what that looks like for other teachers is a great form of teacher leadership. I would also add here that teachers are part of the school governance structure, which I talk a lot about, but this idea of shared leadership in a formal sense—Are teachers part of the decision-making process for the school? So we know from the research that organizations that embrace shared leadership structures in this formalized kind of decision-making, they see the better results for the school for organizations more broadly when we have diverse representation in the decision-making table. And also we know that people who feel supported in this sense, so teachers who are supported to be teacher leaders, they're more likely to work towards collective goals. So that idea of teacher buy-in around particular initiatives comes a lot easier when we invite and include teachers as part of how leadership functions at the school.

Now let's look at the flip side of this. So the other piece of this is administrators being aware of and being connected to what is happening in classes. I mentioned this, some of these ideas briefly at the start of the episode, but when we think about the ways that administrators can coach teachers, they can take a formalized coaching role, or it can be something a little bit less regular or less formalized, but this idea of consistently providing feedback. So when you receive feedback from a formal administrator, be it your principal, assistant principal, instructional coach, I'm probably talking more about the first two in this regard, but this idea that you don't get feedback until you get your year-end review or your formal observation, is just not helpful in terms of creating a culture of coaching and thriving and growth in the school.

If an administrator is only in your classroom to do that formal observation. And that's the only time that you're having conversations about what's happening in class, how you teach, what you teach, what your kiddos are learning that really disrupts this sense of constant growth and thought partnership around instruction and pedagogy from an administrator lens. And so this is a—I know administrators are super busy, but I think this is a really powerful shift around where the priorities lie particularly in a year that’s really been disrupted. I'm recording this in 2020, and things are still incredibly uncertain and teachers have been having a tough time adapting. So I want to be very clear that I'm not saying administrators should go in and start giving critical feedback all the time and go in uninvited to classrooms. What I'm suggesting is that we have this ongoing conversation around: How's it going?

What are we trying in your class this week? Well, what didn't go well, last week, let's actually talk about that. Not from a punitive punishment kind of perspective, like you're a bad teacher, but what are we identifying as trends? How can I support you? What can I connect you with? What resource or strategy might we be able to try and then be able to touch base again to say, did it work? And if it didn't, I'm going to help you find something else. I'm gonna help you track that progress over time. And when I see that it has worked, when I see that you've successfully solved this really challenging problem, I want you to share your wisdom and your experience with the other teachers in the school. And I want you to take on that leadership role. So again, being connected to the classroom enables administrators to select key teachers who have really found powerful strategies and solutions to ongoing problems that most likely many teachers are facing. Not just that one teacher who had it. 

So that idea of creating that culture of coaching, providing feedback, I think also helping to analyze data that informs teacher practice can be really powerful. A lot of times when we think about—as teachers being asked to make sure we're analyzing the data, make sure we're making data-based decisions, that is sometimes difficult when we're not taught explicitly how to analyze data or what sources of data or what types of, of data are actually supposed to be used on a regular basis. It also can feel sometimes a little disconnecting when teachers are analyzing particular data. But again, if the administrators are disconnected from knowing what's going in everyday classes and recognizing the data that teachers are exploring in their grade team meetings or their PLCs, that sense of support, that's absolutely helpful for teachers, from administrators is maybe missing there if there's that disconnect.

So I think analyzing and looking at data together can be really, really powerful in addition to developing a culture of coaching and learning. I think leaders can also organize the school behind a clear, shared vision while also personalizing support for individual teachers. And so what I mean by this is leaders in research on leadership really need a clear vision if they don't have clear vision of usually one to two kind of key ideas or key goals or overarching goals per year, there's a big chance that that school year or that organization as a whole is not going to be as successful as a leader with a clear vision. So clear vision is critical, but also within that clear overarching vision, we want to personalize the support because teachers are going to need different things. They're going to be interested in different things. They're going to have different students in their classes and teach different grades and content areas.

Again, that balance of personalization with that clear shared vision. For example, the last school that I was a teacher at, our principal would share with us two big ideas or two big kind of school-wide goals for each. For example, one year we got an iPad grant. So, we got devices for each student and that was a really critical shift that we needed to make in order to best serve our students. We needed to be able to use that technology. And so one overarching goal for that year was thoughtful technology integration. And so that was kind of this broad overarching goal for us as an organization, as a school, but each individual teacher is going to support that goal in unique ways. So I was doing documentaries in my classroom, through iMovie, and that was thrilling and exciting for me and for my students.

Another teacher might've said that is absolutely nuts. I'm not touching documentaries, but I am using an iPad app like Explain Everything, for example, as a whiteboard for my math class. And we're going to have students really practice these, solving these equations and demonstrating their learning, with a voiceover. And then we're going to have them submit this to a bank of resources where when we're studying for tests, I can highlight as the teacher, some really amazing key ideas that students shared and be able to share those as resources for students to kind of study with their peers, as opposed to just listen to me or review their notes that I gave them. So there's some really unique ways that we as individual teachers can support a shared goal, but that shared really organizes us and focuses us. So that as an administrator, my principal could say, we're going to make sure that X number of PD days for the rest of the year, we would have weekly PD, are going to be around this topic of tech integration.

But as teachers, I will invite you, or you can invite yourselves to lead these PD workshops based on whatever it is you're actually doing in your class. You can show us the end product. You can help us work backwards, teach us the steps to get there. But we are personalizing while also moving towards this clear shared vision. Another thing I'll add about kind of administrators being connected to the instruction is that connection piece of being able to connect the teachers with the resources that they need when they need them. So that there's this consistent learning and growing process. And of course, as they said, I think administrators model this with their own learning and their own growth and, and be really transparent about what they're working on, but in order to do that, well, principals and instructional coaches, folx who are in positions of formal authority in schools are going to need to have that linkage to a variety of resources in a variety of types, right?

We don't just want blog posts if some teachers are not going to benefit from reading blog posts. We don't just want podcasts if that's only what some of the teachers are interested in in learning like, you know, I think having this broad sense of: Do we have self-paced courses? Do we have something interactive? Do we continue to have those two hour workshops once a week for teachers to kind of show up as like a staff meeting, whether it's in-person or virtual, and just make sure that we have not only a variety of types, but also a variety of resources that span different topical areas, different content, in grade resources and part of being an administrator and an instructional coach. And I use those words kind of interchangeably because I think that's another piece of teachership right, is this idea that principals are still instructional coaches, even though their title doesn't say instructional coach anymore, right.

That connection to the classroom and the instruction that's happening there, makes them inevitably an instructional coach. I will also say that the idea of teachers as leaders also makes teachers instructional coaches to their peers as well, right? Thought partners, people who are modeling as a coach might just this idea of everyone kind of taking on this instructional coaching role in this realm of teachership and making sure that if you don't have a resource, or you're not sure where to go, that you at least have identified a couple of key sources of folks that you can ask now, as they think about our next step. So after we finished this episode, you know, how do we go implement this idea of teachership? How do we live out the value of teachership in our school systems? I invite you to identify one way to systematize professional growth in your school.

And so if you're a teacher, this might look like inviting other teachers to visit your class, to see something you've had success with, or to set up a success share meeting with your grade team or your department or whatever your PLC is. But to say, we're using this particular time, this one hour of time to be able to discuss a problem of practice or whatever phrase you use, or just share, it doesn't even need to be based on a problem of practice, but just share. This is something I've had great success with, my students have responded to incredibly well, especially during a pandemic, perhaps, and we're just going to go around and share. Each teacher has five minutes, you know, share a tech tool or a strategy or an approach or a mindset, whatever it is that has worked really well for you. And I find those meetings to be really exciting and energizing because we're not always focused on the problems.

This conversation might have stemmed from a problem with practice we identified and we wanted to fix. And so we tried some things and some things worked, but it's really celebratory. And it's saying, you know what? A lot of things are tough this year, but here's the good stuff that's happening. I often come out of meetings like this really energized and ready to plan my next lesson or unit because that energy level is really contagious. It's what prevents burnout, right? It's what keeps me going. At least for me as an individual. Now, teachers, again, you might want to invite folks to visit your class, perhaps without that follow-up success share meeting as well. So even extending that opportunity, if someone in passing says, “Oh, I haven't used that tech tool,” or “I haven't used that strategy. I'm curious how you do that.” You know, it could be something as simple as an exchange like that, where you just welcome them in and say, “Oh, well, here's when I'm teaching.”

I don't think you have a class at that time. If that's your prep time, come on over. You know, here's my Zoom link. If you're online, whatever that looks like, and it could be that informal, it doesn't need to be an email to the whole staff to say, you know, I invite you formally into my class to invite teachers in set up a success share meeting with your PLC or some, some fellow teachers, administrators, what you could do to help systematize professional learning might be getting each teacher, a coach that could be you, maybe you offer to meet with each teacher depending on the size of your school, or you identify leaders in the school, assistant principals, you know, other people with leadership roles that are similar to instructional coaching to act as instructional coaches, perhaps that's just once a month, once a quarter, but just making sure that everyone has someone that they can go to, to ask questions with that they can use as a thought partner, or it could even be other teachers, right, who are interested in taking that slightly more formal position of leadership that want to be a peer coach that wants to have those energizing conversations with peers.

But kind of set up, you know, everyone that is a teacher currently in your school with some sort of thought partner or “coach,” even if that's not their formal role. And now another option for administrators could be to use PD time. What might typically happen as a whole staff meeting that lasts an hour or two, and let teachers use that to share their successes. So I talked about this in the teacher example, but if you just have each teacher—and you could do this in a whole staff setting where teachers sit at tables, if you're in person or in a breakout room setting on zoom, that they are in small groups, maybe around themes, maybe around grades, maybe around departments or content that they teach and they just share, you know what it is that they are excited to share. You could also do this on a rotating basis.

So let's say you have a school where there's 30 teachers in the school. If you wanted five teachers to share each week, over the course of the year, you could say every other month, each teacher is going to present just something. And then you have one week, every, you know, eight weeks that is a success your week and teachers sign up and they can just identify ahead of time what their success share is going to be. And people can sign up for that particular topic, or if it's in a Zoom room, or if it's in a physical room in the school, they can attend again, whatever is interesting to them because we want to have that shared vision we're working towards, but we also want to make sure the teachers have options. So they attend the PD that is most helpful for them.

I am going to link to a couple different things at the bottom of this episode in the show notes. One is a newsletter from the 2016 International Literacy Association conference. This is where Steinbacher-Reed and Rotella, share a lot of their information about teachership and professional sandboxes. And I also want to share with you a free resource that I've created to help you get started with this idea of systematizing professional development. And this is my Peer Visitation Starter Kit. So if you're interested in creating a culture of visiting other teachers and signing up for those visits and having a more systematized way of letting other teachers know you're interested in hosting and what topic you're interested in hosting on, this is a great, kind of a two pager, one being a note taker of like what people can kind of jot notes on if you want it to systematize that when they're actually in the visit. And then another page that really just helps structure the signup portion, where it can connect folks who are hosting with folks who are visiting and what topics and what times and all that. 

So I will link to those in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to another solo show from the Time for Teachership podcast. I'm super excited to hear all of the great things that you are doing in your classroom to highlight teachership to foster professional learning. And I'm so excited and grateful to you for continuing to be amazing educators in this trying year. I know you are awesome, and I can't wait to hear all the innovative things that come out of this year. 
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Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best.

In today's episode, I'm talking to Annalisa Holcombe, the founder of Connection Collaborative. Annalisa is dedicated to providing safe and brave spaces for human beings to connect and discover who they are and what they want out of life. She founded the coaching and mentoring center at Westminster College, establishing and scaling a suite of programs aimed at providing every student with access to a mentor. These programs significantly increased student retention among participating students thanks to effective student-alumni, mentoring relationships, and monthly group coaching sessions. She has completed her coach training through the Coach Training Institute, and she is currently training for an International Coaching Federation certificate. She holds a law degree. She holds a degree in business management, and she's currently pursuing her PhD in leadership and change. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation with Annalisa Holcombe.

Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change  like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

Lindsay Lyons
Welcome Annalisa Holcombe to the podcast. I am so excited that you are here to talk with us today. I am a huge fan of your podcast, 92,000 hours, which I highly recommend that everyone listening goes and listens to. It is like the best part of my day when I listen to it. And normally at this point, at the beginning of this podcast, I would ask you to introduce yourself, however you would like, but I am so incredibly fascinated by how you ask people on your podcast to introduce themselves. If you could talk to our listeners a little bit about that question that you typically ask them, and then answer yourself to introduce yourself here. I would love that.

Annalisa Holcombe
Oh, that's so exciting and scary because I get to ask that question rather than answer it for myself. And so the big question that I ask people that really does go to how I think of us as you know, I want to know, I want, I don't want to know what you do. I want to know who you are. And so I asked the question that sets it up in a, in a it's kind of a negative space, but I don't mean it to be that way. So I set it up with, if you remove all of the things in our lives that we usually list when we're saying this is who I am. So you take away school, all of your education, your work, not your job title or what you do, sports or volunteerism, or any of those types of things that we usually list.

You can't count what I say. So not counting any of those things. What is your greatest accomplishment or what are you most proud of as yourself as a human being? And so thinking about that question, I am particularly proud of the both safe and brave space that I was able to create for a period of 15 years in a college setting, in which we brought students from all different majors and different areas. They were all of course at the same institution, but we brought students who wouldn't normally know each other, put them all in a room and said, we're going to talk about hard things like, fear, real fear, your existential stuff that you're not comfortable talking about to other people. Or priorities, what do you actually prioritize? And are you living it, and how do you self-reflect on that? Or, empathy or vulnerability and courage.

And how do we make sure we know that the fact that courage that we highlight all the time, the antecedent to courage is vulnerability? And we have to actually understand that we are vulnerable humans. And let's think about what those vulnerabilities are so that we can act with courage when, when we feel that vulnerability. And so having had the experience of 15 years of those types of conversations is—I'm really proud of it—but I'm also very selfishly sad that those particular times are over because it created these really fulfilling, purposeful, meaningful moments for me, that created my deep belief in humanity and in people who are different, being able to talk to each other. And if I could just say, like, there were some moments that watching peers educate each other about their own humanity was some of the best, like the, the most joyful, best moments of my life.

And they came in difficult times. So for example, there was a time in which we met monthly and we are halfway through a year and I was in a group. Usually the groups had about 12 students in them. And one student, they were really like talking honestly and openly with each other one student who was, you know, a business finance major who played sports at the university, spoke to a mathematics/performance art major who was, very outwardly gay. And this, this one guy asked his peer. He said, you know, I am so sad that I've never been friends with a person who is gay and I don't know how to do it. And I feel really awkward. Can you educate me on how to do it? Like, what do I do? How do I do this? I want to know you better.

And I want to be a friend, but I don't even know how so I avoid it. And then they had this conversation. The one guy was like, first of all, don't think we all want to be with you. That's answer number one second. We're still human. So don't think of me as different from you. And so like having them have that honest conversation with each other that was scary and vulnerable and brave, changed how they're now going out in the world and talking to each other, but it takes a long time to create those spaces. And so I'm really proud. That's a long answer, but I'm really proud of having been a part—with a bunch of other people who facilitated with me—to create those spaces for people to have those conversations. That I think are, I think they come back to you years later, maybe even decades later where the learning is still real.

Lindsay Lyons
Oh my gosh. I love that answer because I think it speaks to all of the people in education who  are listening to this podcast and thinking about creating those spaces. One of the first questions that I usually follow this up with is what is kind of your big dream for educators or for education generally. And I don't know if at all your answer is connected to that, but I, I almost see connections to that just in my own thinking of being able to create those spaces for people and have that space for education, that's going to hold everything kind of that holding environment to be able to have those tough conversations and real conversations.

Annalisa Holcombe
I think that's right. But I also, I mean, those types of tough and real conversations, I don't think our systems are built for, right. They weren't at my, at the, at the higher ed institution that I was at. It wasn't built for it. We created this out of whole cloth and then, did it ourselves with volunteers like and I then went out to people and said, by the way, I want you to know that these students are showing up at 8:30 on a Saturday morning for four hours, and I'm not giving them college credit, and I'm not paying them they're coming because they are getting something intrinsically that we need as human beings that they are finding valuable. And, and they show up at the beginning, not knowing what they're in for just knowing that there's some kind of mystery about it, because over time that that program ended up having like this, this, you know, this kind of, you know, the Vegas thing, right?

Like, I can't tell you what happens there, but it's really kind of cool and you should probably go. And so students had this, it was this mystery about, Oh, I want to be part of that program. What they got out of, it was just, it was only what they put into it. But I do think that what I really want for educators that they don't have is the ability to do—which I didn't have either. I had to create that at a separate time on a Saturday morning, not during course time, not with giving them college credit, because it didn't fit the structure that the system wanted me to fit. And it was a scary piece of learning that was about learning about ourselves and how we connect to each other as humans. Rather than, you know, a specific thing that we say that we can do, I wasn't even in the student life office, which, however, later I brought in people from student life, our Dean of students ended up doing it as well.

But what I wish people were able to do is because I think teachers clearly have a calling, right? I mean, if you are, if you are doing this work, you care deeply about the learning and about the people that you are engaging with every day. And to be able to provide those teachers with the freedom, to truly educate, to truly teach to the student in front of them and to make sure that person is learning, rather than having to respond to the system that is requiring them to do certain things that may not even be the, the learning that, that the students right in front of them are asking for. That's the, my dream would be that we could do that, that we could actually provide that, that learning that I know inherently, the teachers were called to do and have specific understanding of the needs of the people right in front of them, that we may not be allowing them as a society to connect appropriately and to give our students and our children, and like all of us as humans, what we need to fulfill our own purpose. That's a long answer.

Lindsay Lyons
I love that answer though, because I think it speaks to my experience personally, as a teacher, I was never actually a teaching major. And then I did a program kind of like Teach for America. It was called New York City Teaching Fellows. And immediately after I graduated with degrees in Sociology and Women's and Gender Studies that I was like, okay, this is going to be great because I'm going to teach for that purpose. I'm going to teach for those conversations and that real learning that kids are going to be running to my class. And then two years later, looking back on those first two years of my teaching, it was, I'm going to teach this test. I'm going to remove all emotion and joy from the classroom, because I have to teach this test. And it took a couple of years to actually hit that moment where I was just like, this is not what I signed up for and find my way back to it. So that's super interesting that you say that.

Annalisa Holcombe
I think that that also can happen to us in all of our lives. It's one of the reasons that I talk so much about mentorship, which, and the reason I talk about that so much is because I find that when, so I've, you know, I've run a mentoring program for so long that I automatically can tell the good mentors. And they are the people who asked me if they're good mentors, right? Like, it's that simple? It's the, it's the person who says that they care so deeply about making sure that their mentee is getting the, what they need, that they come to me as the, as the organizer of the, environment and say, I hope I'm doing a good enough job. I'm really, I really want them to get something. And I think then I don't have to worry about you because it's those people who are striving, who are the people who continue to strive in all of the different areas of their lives.

Like those are the people who do, who, you know, you can count on, and it's not necessarily the people who are at the top of their game and have the, have the best title or making the most money or drive the best car. It's the people who you meet, who are curious and striving, who are the best mentors. And I think that those, that, that opportunity for mentorship is another way that we can also, however, find joy, be brought back to the joy that you said that, you know, for two years it was gone, but when you have to be a mentor and talk to somebody who's coming into whatever it was that you were, you know, in some ways called to do it can remind you of what your why. And it can remind you of the joy that you found originally in doing the work. Because sometimes we just all get into the, you know, the spinning wheel of our lives and forget that actually, I really love this. Let me stop for a minute. And remember that I actually really love what I'm doing. And so I think mentorship can help us remember why we are doing what we do.

Lindsay Lyons
Let's maybe dive in a little bit more to that because you have so much experience with mentorship. And I know you're passionate about people having mentors and being mentors. Could you talk a little bit more about if a teacher or a school principal is listening to this right now, thinking that sounds great. How do I set that up? We don't currently have anything, either a mentoring program for their student or for themselves as adults. How did you get that started? Or what would you suggest for them to have those conversations?

Annalisa Holcombe
I think we have to, so I have to tell you that the very first time I tried to set up a mentoring program, it fell flat. It was a failure. In fact, I even had this like, you know, get together at the end. It was a pilot program for a summer. And at the end we were going to have a little party and we'll, I mean, I even had wine at my party. I was like, we're going to have wine, we'll have a little party and talk about how we did. And only one other person showed up. I was like, wow, that did not go well. And what was great about that, however, is that we did have to create some, some structure to it. And what I have learned, I have to tell you the most important thing that I've learned over time with regard to mentoring programs is that we have to be, we as human beings get so busy that we set up our lives.

And, and we're so nice to each other, like in many ways, kind of fake, nice to each other that we, that we say, Oh, it's okay. I know, I know you're busy. And so when we, later, when I set up the mentoring program, I particularly told all of the students and all of the mentors don't do this. If you can't commit, I'm going to give you the exact requirements of what we want from you, how long it will be, what here's, what we want you to do. And it's not like, you know, do this many things, but it is this much time commitment, et cetera, here are the days. And particularly for the students, here are the days. And I have to tell you a kind of a story that might be interesting is that we set it up with the students at the beginning, where they come up with what their own, you know, rules, ground rules are, or however you want to phrase that, which I'm sure teachers do in their classrooms.

You know, that's like, and you have the, the individuals who are participating, create what those are and provide the opportunity for feedback. And everybody has to agree that those are the, those are the rules. But then somebody has to actually enforce them. And I know that probably teachers are better at this than most people. Because once you get into the workplace, we're terrible at it. We tell each other that's okay, no big deal. I understand. But we, in our mentoring program, we would literally tell the students, so here's the deal. You signed up for this. And without judgment, if you cannot do it, then you cannot do it. And you're going to be asked to leave because you can't, you can't opt in and out. You have to either be in or out. And, and it's, it's okay, because we all have to, you know, make our choices and have our priorities.

And so we won't judge you if you leave. And I think that's part of why we say we'll do stuff when we really can't do it, because we feel like we're being judged. But the truth is if we take away the judgment, allow people to really truly say their truth about whether they can do something or whether they want to even do it and let them be there without judgment. Then you can have those conversations. And, and honestly, every single year we ended up, you know, voting someone out who couldn't be there and it could be for all sorts of reasons, but the truth is we'd have, we'd have the people in the program talk honestly and openly truly about when we say it's okay, that somebody isn't here, is it actually, okay, you were here. This person, you know, rescheduled their jobs so that they could be here.

This person, you know, didn't go to their great grandma's funeral or something like people would make sacrifices to be there. Let's honor those and make sure that we are doing that hard work. I think in society, we say it's okay when we don't mean it, because we're afraid of conflict and having those difficult conversations. But that's what we learned with our mentoring program. And every time when I didn't run one of those programs and I had other facilitators, and they'd say, we have a bunch of students who seem to be dropping out. And I would say, how often are you reinforcing that this is important and that you committed to this, and it's not okay if you make a commitment and then you don't show up for it. So, but it is okay to say, I don't, I no longer have time for this commitment, but let's just be honest about who we are and where we are in our lives.

So I would say if I was a teacher, that's a long way of speaking. If I was a teacher or a principal, and I wanted to create a mentoring program, several things, one create the structure and the system of what the expectations are, and then stick to them. If you don't stick to them, it'll fall apart. And to look to the people who are automatically mentoring anyway, because there are people who are—every single school knows the teachers who are always the teachers that everybody goes to. Every single university knows the professors who every student goes to for advising. Those are the people that we are putting so much extra work on, in an unfair way, because it's real work. And it is incredibly emotional labor that we're putting on people who are automatically good at it, but we're not compensating them for it. We're acting as if, because you're good at this, you must love it. Not understanding that the reason they're good at it is probably because they are, they have one, the ability to do it well, which comes from the ability to truly listen, which means they can actually empathize with the people in front of them. And that is hard work that takes time for recovery. And we don't give people that. So that's what I tell a principal, give people that.

Lindsay Lyons
The structure piece I'm using is very similarly structured and linear. And so I think that makes a lot of sense. I love that there's a voice in that too, of the participants. So it's not something that you're just mandating, top-down, it sounds like that's something that's generated bottom up, which I think just leads to a lot more buy-in and commitment. Right. And like, I'm going to come back because this is where I want to be. And I think ultimately, as you were talking about earlier, right? I think this is where we want education to be in a place like I'm coming, because this is really helpful for me. I am deriving joy from it. I'm feeling good, mentoring others, I'm feeling good, being mentored. And I think for students and adults, that's like, that's what we want to connect with. Where is that joy coming from? And how do we create spaces where people, it sounds like you're saying, like they can really opt into it. Like it's a voluntary thing. It's not like everyone has to do it.

Annalisa Holcombe
I think that, required mentoring programs can be very, they can be actually detrimental for people because, and for both the, the person who is being mentored and for the mentor, because people are, if you, if you're required to be there, that doesn't mean that you bought in. It doesn't mean that you're ready to be part of it. And I think that over time, just like the program that I started, it became something that ended up, you know, we had to set up more, more courses, even though they weren't real courses with lots of people in it, because it became popular and more people wanted to opt in because the, you know, the results were appropriate, but at the beginning it was who wants to do this? And then we kept it that way because you want to serve the people who are ready for it and not tell people they have to have it and have them become jaded about what mentoring actually means. And I think also, I have to say during that process, one of the groups that I had the most difficult time recruiting to have to be in the mentoring program, where student teachers,

Lindsay Lyons
Wow. That's surprising to me actually,

Annalisa Holcombe
Well, in some ways it isn't right, because all of the business students were on it. Give me a mentor. I want that. And how can I put that on my LinkedIn page? The teachers were not interested in their LinkedIn pages in any sense of the word, but what, what they would tell me is I'm a, I'm a student teacher. So it means I already have a mentor. And so I would say to people—here's something that I think is a takeaway for all of us, which is to get yourself a mentor. Or, as one of my friends described to me, in fact, get your own personal board of directors, right? If you are a leader of a corporation, you're going to have several people, whom\ you have asked to be on your board because they have different areas of expertise.

One mentor cannot be the, be all and end all for you. They don't know everything, but if you get somebody that you can go to for interpersonal relationship advice, or somebody else that you can go to for, how am I going to get to the next phase of my career? Because you've been there before, or somebody else who you can just go to for educational opportunities, what school should I go to? Why did you choose that one? Like if you could, if you could get a handful of people who you can ask honest questions, and they're not either your boss or could be your boss so that you can really be vulnerable with them. I think that's a, I think that's a really good way for us to build our own independent mentoring programs that we do for ourselves is by finding our own personal board of directors. And I think that there are people out there in the world who would feel honored if you ask them to be, would you be willing to be on my own personal board of directors?

Lindsay Lyons
I love that idea of the board of directors thinking from even just a student lens, you know, I could pinpoint some different teachers that I gravitated to as a student myself, but certainly like the ones that I look back and say that that was my favorite teacher or one of my favorite teachers. They have not taught me the things that I now really value and totally learned from someone who was not a teacher or was a teacher much later. And so I think it speaks to that, like people are contributing in these various ways and, and that you don't have to put so much pressure on each individual teacher to be everything for every student. Maybe part of our work is helping students to find those people for themselves, perhaps by modeling how we do it in our own lives. Right?

Annalisa Holcombe
I think that's absolutely right. The best way that we can, that we can teach is to model, right? To say, this is what I've learned. This is how I'm using this. This is what's good. And this is what's bad. And this is how I am iterating as I go, because everything needs iteration. And it's going to be okay if you fail with your first mentor, right? Like it's, it's going to be okay, because there are other people out there that have something to offer you.

Lindsay Lyons
Yeah. And in the spirit of that, I hate to put you on the spot here, but would you mind modeling for us a little bit about your own? Do you have your own board of directors? And could you talk a little bit about what that looks like, like the process of finding them, but also kind of what they provide for you?

Annalisa Holcombe
I have a different board of directors for different purposes. Here's an example: one person who's on my board of directors, I don't talk to all the time. It is, but you know what, he, he actually, I actually ended up having him speak at my wedding about what friendship really looks like. Because friendship is important in relationships, right? But this person, he models for me how to prioritize. And the reason I picked him on my board of directors is because I struggle with my ability to say no. And I know that about myself. I go, wow, that looks cool. I want to do it. Oh, that looks cool. I want to do it. And then I have way too many things on my plate. I worked with volunteers in my old work and, and he was a person that I wanted to volunteer because he's a leader.

Annalisa Holcombe
And I spoke with him and asked him if he would be willing to volunteer. And he said, not this year, but you can talk to me next year because I only have time for three things in my life. And here's the order of their importance. First, my family, they come first always, and I need to dedicate time to them second, my career. And that's really important to me. And third, one way that I volunteer and I've already committed to one act of volunteerism this year. So come to me next year. And it was just so clear the way he said that to me, that I had no reason to tell him, “Oh, come on,” which I would do with people otherwise. When he was so clear with here are my priorities and I'm sticking to them and I expect you to honor them as well.

I go to him now as my, he helps me with my prioritization because it's a struggle for me and he has real clarity about it. So, I picked him because I found someone that I think I'm going to be like in this area. I don't want to be like him in other areas. In fact, he would know I would tease him that he prioritizes money far more than I do. And I think it's hilarious. But I do want to learn from him with regard to priorities, other people for different reasons. And I think the first aspect of me finding my own personal board of directors first comes with self-reflection on who I am and what is it that I need, because I should not pick someone just because they have a cool title. I shouldn't pick someone just because they look, you know, something about their lives is attractive to me, I would need to understand really what it is that I need and who it is, who I am and where I'm trying to go to see how they might be able to fit into what I need. So, the act of self-reflection first is really important.

Lindsay Lyons
I love that. And thank you for sharing that personal story. I think what's interesting about that particular example is I think it speaks to a lot of people generally, but teachers that I work with specifically about that idea, right? Like saying, no, it is so difficult. Cause you're just like, yep, sure. I'm serving, I'm serving, right? I'm doing all this stuff for the kids. I can't say no to that. And then it just leads to teacher burnout, which looking at the statistics, it's unlikely for someone who jumps into teaching five years later to still be teaching, which is nuts, you know, with no support system, no PD for how to say no and how to prioritize. Of course, that's going to be really difficult. So I know you talk on your podcast a lot about work-life integration and I'm not sure that I have a full handle on what exactly work-life integration is, but I would love for you to talk a little bit if you'd like, just about what that is and what it means to you and, and how that connects really, to not feeling burnt out and feeling excited about it.

Annalisa Holcombe
I think it has to do with a lot of the things I talk about. So it's of, for me, work-life integration in some ways, it's my reaction to people telling me that I needed to have a work-life balance. Right? People would tell me, you need to have a work-life balance. And then I think I work so much. Why is that something different than my life, right? Like how, why are you separating my work from my life? Because, we all know, and that's why I call my podcast. 92,000 hours is that out of everything we do in our life, the only thing we do more than work is sleep. And it is, we have less screen time, by far spending less time with our family and our loved ones than we do at work. So let's tell the truth about the fact that our work is in fact, our life.

So how, like how do we make sure that we integrate it in a way that honors its place in our life and honors that it is part of who we are. It isn't everything we are. We shouldn't, that's why I don't, you know, I don't start my podcast with, what do you do? I start it with who are you? And what really matters to you? Because in fact, I want to bring that piece of me. And I think that's why we talk about it differently. I want to bring that piece of me, that part of what matters to me and who I am as a human being. I want to bring that to my work. I don't want my work and particularly my role as a leader to be, some performative idea of what a leader is supposed to be. I want to be me and know that I'm also a leader and I don't have to look or act or say or speak the way that somebody tells me a leader is supposed to be.

I want to be myself and integrate what makes me special to my children and my husband and my friends into my work, because that's a part of my being. And it's a part of my humanity. And it's really like the only way that I'm going to actually find joy and purpose in my 92,000 hours is if I get to know people in that way as well, I don't want to be somebody different at my house and somebody different at my office. I want to be this. I just want to be me. And I want to be honored. And given, like, I want other people to see me as me and know that I get to be that person and be a professional. That's what it means to me.

Lindsay Lyons
That is so powerful because I've resisted this idea of work-life integration, because I thought that it meant that you had to be just “on” all the time. I thought it was, you never have a time where you could turn off work and just like be gone from work and you just have to be “on.” So that makes a ton of sense because I love what you said honoring that it's part of who we are. Like, I always joke about this with my partner, about our priorities. He is very clear. He's like family is his number one priority, work is way down that list. And I'm like, work is a very high priority for me because it's who I am. It's part of my identity. I don't want to give that up. And I always felt like that may be wrong. Like that was—so something was wrong with me that I loved work that much, but I also feel like I do have a tendency to go kind of too much in that direction of like I'm in the work zone, no time for family, no time for anything else. And so I feel like part of what you're saying too, is that there is that ability to say no to prioritize, to be clear on that.

Annalisa Holcombe
Your boundaries. Absolutely. This is my time for this. And, and my work is not coming into it and you get to do that, but you also get to be Lindsay who is fun, and who's funny at your job, right? Like you, you don't have to be two different things. And I, the reason it's important to me is because I struggled so much with it. I had, before I went into higher ed, I was a lawyer. And the pressure that I had, which I don't know if society put on me or if I on myself or, you know, how that worked. But I had this pressure that I was going to be, you know, tough as nails. I had to be like, I had to work all the time and I had to be tough and I had to negotiate. And, and I was really unhappy.

And as part of why I started my mentoring program, because, you know, I'm 10 years into my law career and I hated it. And I think that, and I was so confused about why do I hate this when I thought it was supposed to be me, and underneath it, I learned that one of my, one of my biggest strengths is that I am inherently nurturing. And I struggled with finding a way to be a strong leader with being a nurturing human. And I didn't know what to do with that. And it felt really uncomfortable until I allowed myself to integrate those together and I can be a nurturing leader and that's okay because that's how I bring my whole self and how I integrate who I am as a whole person into all the things that I do. And at home, when I'm nurturing, I'm also a leader. And, you know, like I'm, it's like both of those are important parts of my identity, and I don't want to give up one or the other in who I am as a, and how I bring myself and show up for people in my life.

Lindsay Lyons
That actually brings me to what we were talking about before we started recording about this idea of teacher neutrality, of this idea of when we're teaching for justice. And we're talking about justice, I think for me, that's why I got into the classroom. And then having two years in realized, I'm not bringing that part of myself to the classroom. And also I think that pressure of not being tenured and teachers wondering, you know, can I bring that part of myself? What does it look like to bring a justice-focused sense of leadership and teaching into the classroom without getting fired? And, and sometimes I definitely butted up against that, “I'm going to get fired today.” But I think like that's so powerful to frame it in that way as this is who I am. It's who I am at home. Of course, it's going to be who I am in the workplace. It has to be, if it's going to be sustainable, at least that's what I'm hearing you say.

Annalisa Holcombe
Absolutely. And if you're going to continue to find joy, if you take away those pieces of you that bring you joy, because they're part of your identity, then of course the joy is going to go out of your work. It's going to go out of your teaching because you didn't allow yourself to bring those pieces. But I think it's also important that you talked about the worry that you would have about, am I going to lose my job if I do these things? And I think it's important to acknowledge when we have the privilege of being able to bring our full selves. And also if we do have the privilege, how important it is that we do it. So that we do—we start to change the conversation about how people can bring their whole selves to their work, to their classroom, et cetera. It does take the people who already are in a position of privilege to start to do that work so that people who are not can, because it's, if we expect people to do that. And I think we might often do that in our society—we look at people and in some ways like other them and say like, well, you're the other. So we'd like you to bring that to this classroom rather than being courageous ourselves, as leaders and bringing our whole selves to our classroom first.

Lindsay Lyons
Absolutely. I think about that in all of the racial justice work that I'm learning about trying to be part of this idea of this is a person who is Brown or Black or Indigenous, and they are a teacher. That means this is something they should tackle, right? Or this is something that they should be taking the risks on when in reality teachers who are Black, Brown and Indigenous are most likely to be fired for speaking out and things like that. Right? And that's something where if we take, I've been thinking a lot about language and like, if we take that idea of “issues of race,” right? Or racism, and we flip it to be, we're talking about white supremacy here, right? This is like a white person's like we are embedded in this problem. This is our responsibility to step up and take that risk and speak out and say these things. And to no other—that, just when you said that, I'm like, I see that every day and this example, right?

Annalisa Holcombe
I find myself worrying about this a lot in my work now. Because in addition to the work I do with 92,000 hours, which I have to tell you is part of my own, like you talk about my own professional development. In my other work, I am a fundraiser and I'm asking people for money all the time, but I know that what I'm doing and I feel really good about it. People will ask me questions like, don't you feel uncomfortable asking people for money? And I say, no, because I, in fact, believe in what I'm working on. If I didn't, I shouldn't be doing this work. And I'm asking people to invest in changing society through this investment. And I will provide them with information about the impact that they're making in society through it. And if it fits their values, which is, you know, what we do with our money is we express our values. However, we're spending it, whether it's, you know, restaurants or education or social justice, we're expressing our value, what we value in the world. And I'm happy to help direct some people to express their values.

Lindsay Lyons
Wow. That is powerful. Especially transitioning from a teacher role to a business owner now where I'm like selling, you know, courses and things. And I'm like, I feel very uncomfortable asking people for money, but I'm like, if you are where I was, this type of stuff is going to change your life. And I know that, and I believe in that. And I think that's such a great reframe of, let me introduce you to something that could be life-changing versus I'm going to ask you for money.

Annalisa Holcombe
That's right. And no judgment. If you choose not to do it, I need to choose it. I think you should. I like, it's great, like, it's a great way to be able to express your values. And that's when I reframed, I read this great book is called The Soul of Money. It's a great book about how our money—money has a soul and that it just flows through us. None of us get to keep it forever. It's just going to flow through us. What's the direction that you want that flow to go. Like, how are you going to make that money flow through you? And so what are you going to do with it? and when you look at your budget, how are you spending it? That'll tell you what you value. That goes only if we have additional funding, right? If we have only enough to cover our basic needs, then it is completely unfair for us to say, what do you value? So it's only when you have additional funding that you can do something with it.

Lindsay Lyons
That makes a lot of sense. And I was even thinking from the school perspective, right? Of a principal or a superintendent, like we have X amount of money. If you can cover like basic student needs, everybody's fed, everyone has a teacher, right. Where's that extra money going? Is it investing in mentorship programs or coaching programs or things like this, or is it going to, you know, I don't know, like a hundred textbooks that we may or may not use, right? I think about that. 

Annalisa Holcombe
I say that all the time. Look, if you, if you wonder what people value, whether it's an individual, a school, a business, a society, a government, look where they spend their money. That's how, like where you spend your money, shows what you value.

Lindsay Lyons
I love it. I hate to cut this conversation short, because I think this has been amazing in our kind of wrap up. I'd love to know of all the things that we've talked about. We've talked about so many things, I'm just going to tie it up. Recap some of the amazing things that we have talked about. We talked about how, when we set up these mentorship programs, we want to make sure that students or participants are creating those norms. We're making sure it's voluntary and people have that commitment. We’re talking about how we create our own personal board of directors and model how to do that with students? Priorities and how to make sure that when we are saying yes to something we're actually fully saying yes to it, and we're making sure that the nos have their own category for now, based on those three priorities, perhaps honoring that work is a part of who we are. And so that work-life integration is really critical. And I love this last point, too, right of expressing what we value through money. I think through, through so many things, right through our actions, through how we spend our time. 

Annalisa Holcombe
Time is our most precious resource. Far more than money. And so how you spend your time. I think that priority list is the most important thing, because it's the thing you can't get back. You can always make more money, but you can never get your time back. So really like really being very serious about your time and thinking critically about it and not allowing other people to take it from you because, because it really it's just fleeting and it will go away. And so how are you spending it and how do you make sure that, as we say, at Connection Collaborative, how do you make sure that the, that the time you have is spent well, rather than just spent? Because it's going away regardless. So how are you going to spend it that you look back and say, I expressed my values through that. I was true to myself through that. I had some purpose or some meaning in the time that I had.

Lindsay Lyons

Absolutely. I love that idea. And, and I think about too, you know, some of those shifts that are required to free up some of that time is big. Like that's a big shift that we have to make from how we have been doing things maybe for a decade, right? And like, this is what it takes to get that time back. Sometimes that can feel really scary to kind of jump into that abyss of what does this new life look like for me? But it's totally worth it, right? Because that time is something that we don't get back. And I, I love that, that you just said that it is more valuable than money.

Annalisa Holcombe
It's absolutely more valuable than money. Absolutely. I do want to also say that maybe like the last thing to talk about would be that I talk a lot about vulnerability. It's a, it's a real thing for me, it's really important to be able to acknowledge what our vulnerabilities are before we can be courageous or brave. And I also think that what I learned during the course of all of these years of mentoring is that some of the best gifts that we can give each other is to see each other, like really, truly see each other in our whole humanity. And to know that my act of courage might be different than your act of courage. And that we, as a society often see courage in those great grand, expectations of, that person was courageous. They jumped into the water, or they ran into the building, but acts of courage can be the small thing that nobody else would know is courageous.

Annalisa Holcombe
Like, and I use examples, like I called my mom today. And so for some, one person that might be an incredible act of courage for them. And if you can have a person in your life that notices or knows you well enough to acknowledge those small acts of courage, those are so important. And I think that if we want to make big systemic change in, in terms of how students learn and how teachers are allowed for that to happen, I think a big act of forward momentum would be to acknowledge the small acts of courage that teachers are doing in their classroom every single day. My youngest daughter is currently, you know, learning online, via Zoom every day. She is six years old. If I could acknowledge the incredible small act of courage that her teacher does every single day by showing up for those six year olds, I see that bravery and I am in awe of what she is doing every single day.

Annalisa Holcombe
I think that if more people reached out to their teachers and say, I see what you’re doing showing up for these students, particularly right now, I think it’s incredibly important. I think that because our systems have failed us, so that the decision-making about what we're doing in the time of COVID for our learners has gone from, you know, not our federal government, not our state government, it's down to every single school district so that those people have to make these decisions in vacuums, where they can, they're never going to make enough people happy, for us to just acknowledge for those people, regardless of the decision that they're making right now, that they are, they're engaging in courageous aspect, continuing to just show up is, is important to us particularly right now. And sometimes the biggest act of courage we have is to just keep showing up when it's hard.

Lindsay Lyons
That was so good. Thank you for sharing that. I think that is a perfect kind of wrap-up for our call to action. Like how do we really think about living out our values that we have, and that, that is a perfect one that encompasses so many different values. We might hold in terms of, you know, connection and collaboration and all of that good stuff. Oh, amazing. So as we close, we know that leaders are constantly learning and growing. Folx who listened to this podcast, love learning. I am curious, Annalisa, what is something that you are currently learning about or kind of diving into lately? It could be, you know, a book you're reading something that you're working on in your free time. What would you want to share for us that you've been learning about or that you would direct people to learn about if you're, if you're jazzed about it?

Annalisa Holcombe
Oh goodness. I have—I'm jazzed about so many things. Here's one, if you, if people are wondering about like, how do I even know what my values are? If you go to my website, in my blog, we have core value cards, which can help you identify those. And I think the most important thing to do with that is here's your core values. It helps you, there's some directions on how to get to them and how to like limit them. But then also how to define them for yourselves, because every single person's idea of what, you know, justice is, is different. And so how do you, how do you, how do you get clarity on what those are? The second would be to define your priorities, take some time to do that, do the act of self reflection and then notice and give yourself credit for your own small acts of courage, right? Because if you don't have time or you haven't figured out what those are if you could, first of all, define them. And second, after having gotten your own personal board of directors and you had the courage to share with them, what some of those vulnerabilities are, then share with other people who have your back, what you're doing so that they can give you that credit that you need to keep showing up.

Lindsay Lyons
Amazing. I love that you just linked all the different things that you've been talking about throughout the episode. Perfect close. And as people are curious about you and Connection Collaborative and your podcast, could you just tell us how they could find you, in either a social media, your website, where could they learn more about you?

Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, sure. So connectioncollaborative.com is our website. If you go there, you can also find the links to the 92,000 hours podcast. New episodes come out every Tuesday and they are related to big picture issues that we talk about. So we have priorities, and coming up, we just did fear. And how, like how to handle fear in your professional life. We're doing one on vulnerability right now. So, that's, all of those I think are, are helpful and they're, they're fun to talk about, even though they're hard. So there's even an episode on failure and we have one coming out right before the holiday season, which is about love and how we can actually acknowledge that love is okay to talk about at work.

Lindsay Lyons
Wow. Those sound amazing. And thank you so much for doing that work. Like this is important stuff. And every time I listen, I take away so much and I feel it in my gut, like, I'm like, this is the stuff that I wish people were talking about. So it is really nice.

Annalisa Holcombe
Nice. That's really nice of you to say. And I'm so thrilled with what you're working on. I'm already taking away all of your work on PD and how I talk about it with the people that I work with so that we can make that a bigger lesson for people who are not necessarily teachers, but people who work and, and what that might mean. Awesome.

Lindsay Lyons
Thanks Annalisa. And thanks for being on the podcast.

Annalisa Holcombe
Thanks for inviting me.

Lindsay Lyons
Thanks for listening amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it, to continue the conversation you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

​In today's episode, I'm talking to you about a practice that is common to schools and turnaround or schools who have been told by the state that they need to rethink how their school works and design an intense strategic plan. The root cause analysis is a key practice that is often part of these strategic planning conversations. What I do today in this solo episode is dig into what really makes a good root cause analysis to truly uncover what is at the heart of this system. Not serving all students. How do we get there? We'll talk about that today.
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Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture, where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

Today. We are talking about root cause analysis. Root cause analysis is a process for identifying the underlying cause of an identified problem. When schools are in need of change or the school is struggling to implement a change initiative, a root cause analysis can help determine where the problem lies, which informs our proposed action. So in my professional life, I've seen a number of root cause analysis performed. And even as a teacher, I encouraged my students to conduct a root cause analysis of problems, trees of issues that they found, in the world. So teachers, this can be done not just at a school level, but also at a classroom level, to really promote some critical thinking and analysis and your students. But for today, we're going to be talking about it from the perspective of school change and what is also called a school reform.

So these types of analyses are commonplace for schools in turnaround schools that have been given a failing grade by the department of education. And so they need to make big changes to turn around their schools. I have both witnessed and participated in root cause analysis in which the group reached what they thought might be a root cause, but no one was really sure. I would love to see school stakeholders, a variety of school stakeholders coming together, teachers, administrators, students, families, community members. I'd love to see them come together to perform this kind of root cause analysis and actually reach a root cause that they can feel to be true in their bodies. There's a visceral knowing that this is it. And if we address this, we can turn it all around. And so my vision for today, what I'd love to kind of help us think through and think about a little bit more concretely is this idea of root cause analysis and how we transform schools that have been struggling that have not served all students.

And in order to do that, we need to dig deep. We need to identify what's really going on far below the surface level of what may appear to be going on, but we know there's so much more below that. And so I'd love to talk you through some examples of, and the process of how to use a root cause analysis in a way that I find to be more effective than I've seen it used in my professional consulting experience with schools and turnaround. The thing is that you'll know it when you see it approach to root cause analysis is so vague and it's unlikely to be helpful because it is so vague. And this was actually the guidance, this phrase we'll know it. When we see it is often the guidance that I heard from folks in charge of leading these analyses at the department of education level.

And so what I'd like us to do today is to go beyond that, to get a bit more concrete on what we're actually looking for when we conduct these root cause analysis. And we engage in this in-depth conversation about what is actually happening in our school system. So we've spoken before about adaptive challenges on the podcast, adaptive challenges are longstanding challenges that cannot be addressed with a technical fix. So a technical fix is something where the solution is really laid out. It's step-by-step, it's like using a new textbook, purchasing a new textbook or having a one-off staff PD workshop, right? These are things that's like, Oh, you just do this. And the problem is solved. Adaptive challenges cannot be fixed with technical fixes. Adaptive challenges are difficult precisely for that reason, we don't know what the solution will be. It's going to take a lot of people coming together to dig into the problem, identify what's going on, and then collectively form a path forward.

So the adaptive challenge is difficult to address because the path forward is unclear from the start adaptive leadership scholars Heifetz Grashow and Linsky are clear about one thing, though, when it comes to adaptive challenges, they right, quote, adaptive challenges can only be addressed through changes in people's priorities, beliefs, habits, and loyalties. That quote is something that I will repeat again and again, because I just feel like it captures the essence of what we're talking about and the importance of a deep root cause. So to me, something that is a deep root cause, something that lies beneath a lot of that surface level stuff, it's likely going to be an adaptive challenge. The problem as a whole, right? And in the root of that, what Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky say needs to change in order to address that larger adaptive challenge is that underlying priority belief, habit, or loyalty that people in the system hold onto.

This is very informative, I think, for the work of root cause analysis. So a common tool for conducting root cause analysis is what they call a Five Whys protocol. Basically, you name a cause of the problem. The first one that maybe comes to mind, and then you go down five levels. So you ask, okay, well, why is that cause—that I just named that's causing the problem—why is that happening? And then you keep going for, again, five layers, five whys. And I like this approach, but only if we know what we're actually looking for in that final why. Because I have seen five whys analysis just kind of go off the rails and end up in a totally different, completely irrelevant to my mind. A lot of times we played then where we could have gone. If we had had a bit more focus in really knowing what we were looking for as we continue down that five whys path, here's an actual example.

And I'm paraphrasing a bit because I didn't write this down word for word, but here's an example of the five ways that I watched a school leadership team of a school that was in turnaround actually come up with in the root cause analysis meeting. The problem was that their school was in turnaround more broadly, right? And they got into some more specifics, but here's the first reason that they came up with when they did the five whys, the first reason why their school is failing was because according to them, they had a discipline problem. So their school's failing because they have a discipline problem. Then they said our cause is that we have a discipline problem. Well, why do we have a discipline problem? We have a discipline problem because, (and this is their second why of their five whys) students are not following the rules about no hoods, hats, or earbuds.

So they're getting a little bit more specific here. And they said, well, why are students not following these rules in particular, the no hoods, hats, or earbuds? And they had a conversation and they said, okay, well, to us, it seems like that's happening because students don't understand it's disrespectful. Why number three to them was that students don't understand it's disrespectful. Hence they're violating the dress code rules. Hence we have a discipline problem. That's why our school is failing. Now there are two more levels to go still. So they said, why do students not understand that it's disrespectful? So why is this happening? So layer number four is the students don't understand because the teachers don't tell students that is disrespectful. They said okay, let's go a level deeper. The teachers don't explain to students that it's disrespectful because, and this is layer number five here, teachers don't see hallway, dress code policing as part of their job.

And that's where they ended, that was their fifth why in the five whys activity, and they said, this must be our root cause. Which means if you do the check again, the check for a root cause analysis is if that lowest level, that thing you determined to be your root cause is fixed, will it fix the larger problem? So if we did a check here, we would see that this says, if teachers don't see hallway, dress codes, policing as part of their job, if that's a root cause, that means that if we convince teachers to see hallway dress code policing as an integral part of their job, our school will no longer be in turnaround. We will be effectively serving all students. Our discipline problems will go away and we will be a school that thrives and all students will be served. As you can tell, as we think through this, you know, they did end up with a belief of sorts.

If we kind of use that language of Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky to think about adaptive challenges in this way and connect it with a root cause analysis process, they did end up with a belief, right? Teachers don't believe it's their job to do policing of the dress codes in the hallways, outside of their classroom. In that sense, you know, that's great that we're, we're digging into a belief. And I think this discussion, if pivoted in a slightly different direction, could have been really fruitful here. What I want to pose now is going back to number one, that first layer that first, why is this happening? The reason our school is failing is because we have a discipline problem. That's what was said. That may or may not be the case, but let's say for the sake of this exercise, that it is. The next why says the biggest discipline issue is students not taking off hats and earbuds and hoods in the hallway.

So right here, I think is the pivotal moment that I wish I could go back and step in and ask, let's check our own beliefs, habits, and loyalties around this statement. And the next one, that next level was that it's disrespectful to wear hoods, hats or earbuds in the hallway. That was kind of assumed within that statement of students don't realize it's disrespectful. It was just kind of assumed that it was disrespectful behavior. So I would love for that self-reflection moment to really be highlighted in this discussion so that it wasn't just let's see where we can pinpoint other people who are not us in this room. And might I add, this was just a room of administrators and teachers, to my knowledge, no one in that room was a family member and there certainly were no students in the room. So just to kind of note that this was a limited stakeholder group of people who were deemed to be leaders on some level in the school building.

But if we could introspectively take a moment to look at that point in the conversation and say, let's check our beliefs that are showing up in this statement right here. The question that we might encourage teachers or leaders to discuss at this moment might actually be: Why do teachers think that it's disrespectful? Why is that the belief there what's going on there? Or another question might be to discuss why is this dress code so important? Why is it seemingly more important than achieving the school's goal of reducing disciplinary incidents? Or why is this a rule in the first place? Why is that rule for no hats, no hoods in existence? Where did that come from? Who created that rule? Because I am willing to bet that students were not a part of that conversation in creating that rule. So here's what maybe another version of this five whys activity for this group of educators might have looked like if we started digging into these other questions and we obviously don't know for sure, because only the school stakeholders themselves would know what actually feels true for their school itself.

So, because number one, might've been the same—again for argument's sake, let's just say that was the same. So our school is failing because we have a discipline problem. Why is that happening? Well, discipline is a problem because students are not following the rules about no hoods, hats, or earbuds. Okay, let's keep that the same. Now. Here's where it shifts. Why is that happening? Why are students not following the rules about no hoods, hats or earbuds? Well, maybe students don't follow these rules because they don't agree with them. And again, here, it would be really helpful to have students stakeholders in this conversation. So we're not just assuming what students are thinking, but let's just for sake of argument, go there for the exercise. So students, maybe aren't following these rules because they don't agree with them. Why is that happening? Why are there even rules that students have to follow that they never agreed to in the first place?

So that next level is there are rules that students don't agree with because students were never asked to help make the rules. Now we're in a different place. Okay, let's go one level deeper. So why is it that students are never asked to help make the rules, layer number five could say maybe adults in the school believe again, we're getting another belief here, adults in the school believe students are incapable of making decisions like that decisions that affect their learning or their learning environment. Now that's probably a bit unsettling. It's a very different root cause than the first one. And this one really hits me in the gut. This one is hard to process as an educator who can connect with that, who doesn't like connecting with that, but who at times in my career have definitely noticed that belief coming up in myself.

It's I think a product of how we are taught in teacher school to be as teachers, right? We know what's best; students obey. That's the, that's the game, right? So this one is really different and it's really uncomfortable. But I think to me, when we're thinking about adaptive challenges and addressing those head on, it requires that belief change. It requires an acknowledgement that there's a problematic belief and that needs to shift. And it requires that critical introspection. So no longer pointing fingers and saying, this is where the problem lies outside of me, but how am I contributing to the system to the problem that is being perpetuated by my underlying beliefs, habits, loyalties? What's going on there with me? When we look at the root cause of the first example, the initial actual example that happens and then this hypothetical example that we went through second, the first root cause, shifting teacher beliefs...

So they see it as their job to police hallway dress. That root cause may result in higher disciplinary referrals because now teachers are hyper policing the hallways and they are perhaps writing students up or sending students to the office or getting in altercations in the hallway with students they may or may not know. And now teachers are feeling stressed about that. I'm sure students are feeling stressed about those interactions and we're increasing disciplinary referrals. We're increasing student and teacher stress. I'm not sure that that solves the larger issue of why the school is not serving all students. If that's the ultimate goal. Not sure that that root cause actually solves many of those things. Now in the second one, again, this is not perfect and it is a hypothetical scenario. So we'd have to really talk to the stakeholders in the school itself to figure out what's true...

That second root cause? Shifting adults' beliefs that students can be a part of policy decisions, like the creation of dress codes may result in students following a dress code they helped create. So there's buy-in when diverse stakeholders are part of the process. If we're looking to change student behavior, are students involved in the creation of the rules that they're expected to follow in the first place? Do we have actual stakeholder engagement? If we expect stakeholder buy-in, I would argue that that is necessary. And I talk a lot about that, with shared leadership and student voice. But I think that's something that was kind of missing here that first, that internal reflection of the stakeholders in the space doing the root cause analysis. And then also just to think about once we hit on that belief, does it also speak to the larger way in which we're trying to lead the school?

Is it one of inclusion and shared decision making or is it one in which we're going to tell you what to do and we expect you to follow it. And then if you don't, there's, there's a problem. I also want to talk about an Ishikawa diagram, which is frequently known as a fishbone diagram. It's often used during root cause analysis, and it helps the folx engaging in the root cause analysis to organize their brainstorming by different categories for each cause. So participants can make their own categories or they can use generic headings. These are usually something like methods, machines, or equipment, people, materials, measurement, and environment. In most analyses, I've been a part of, people have used the predefined categories. And again, the idea here is if we're having trouble getting started with just generating some possibilities for those causes, those categories can sometimes prompt some more nuanced or specific discussions of causes.

And also when we use an Ishikawa diagram, because there are so many categories, we're able to see multiple examples of the five whys. So we might have a whole set of five whys around a particular category. For example, people, or even getting more specific students or teachers is another category of people or families, you know, whatever it is. And those might be very different from one another. They also would be very different, likely from materials and thinking about the root causes of materials or, you know, sometimes they might be the same, which is what's so fun about this. I think comparing, do we see multiple root causes showing up in those separate five whys conducted for each category? And if we do, that's probably something. So this is another example and really just a structure to help us with this conversation about root cause and to engage in the five whys so you can use them overlapping.

So now I'll share another example from another school, a different school leadership team that conducted a root cause analysis. Again, this school was in turnaround, and this time they were really focused on the materials part of the Ishikawa diagram. So the problem that they had determined was that the school is failing because our ELA standardized test scores are really low. And so then the cause of that—right, why are our ELA standardized test scores really low—their response in the materials category of the Ishikawa diagram was our ELA curriculum  doesn't address two key areas that are always on the state tests. And so then digging into that, they said the next layer of the why, why does our curriculum not address those two key areas on the test? Well, teachers don't want to change curriculum again every year. So far teachers have had to change curriculum.

There's this constant change and they don't want to change again. And when asked, you know, why don't the teachers want to change curriculum again, the response was the new curriculum will take time to learn. And we just don't have a lot of time. We're very limited in the time that teachers have. They don't want to devote even more time to learn a curriculum when they already know one that they're familiar with and feel comfortable with. And so if we look at this root cause if we think about our solution to a root cause like that one, it might be a decision that the administration makes like we're going to reserve two days at the start of the year. And we're just going to have some, some PD on this new curriculum and that's going to address the problem. We're going to give you those two PD days.

You're going to learn the new curriculum in those two days and you'll implement it throughout the year. Problem solved. Now let's look at that same problem again, from the people category of the Ishikawa diagram. So again, the problem is the school is failing because our ELA standardized test scores are really low in the people category. We say that the cause for this low standardized test score in ELA is students have repeatedly said they find the curriculum boring. Again. I just want to highlight here that we have different stakeholder perspectives, right? The last one was about teachers. This one is about students. It's going to be really helpful to have students be a part of this conversation, but okay. Our cause is that students find the curriculum boring. That's what they tell us. So why is that happening? Why do they find the curriculum boring? Well, the next level is they don't see themselves or the topics they care about represented in the curriculum.

Okay. So now let's go a layer deeper. Well, why don't they see themselves or the topics they care about in the curriculum? Because teachers have used a curriculum designed by someone who doesn't know their students. So they don't know their students' identities, what their students are interested in. We could probably go a lot deeper. And in particular directions— they're talking about Euro-centric materials and white supremacy in historical, traditionally taught textbooks and things—but let's for now just say, teachers are using curriculum designed by someone who doesn't know their students and we'll leave it at that for this example. Now, why are teachers using a curriculum that's designed by someone else that doesn't know their students? Well, the reason for that is, they say, or maybe they would say—this is a hypothetical rewrite. Teachers have always been given curriculum or told to find curriculum, but they've never been supported to create original curriculum.

They've never walked through the process of what that looks like? Where do you go? How do you find resources? How do you make it manageable? How do you invest in student voice and co-construct curriculum with your students? So in this example, the original materials based example, and then my hypothetical rewrite of the people category example, the habit of finding versus creating curriculum is really long standing. This second piece around the people category, I think hits a little bit deeper. I can connect to that. I can connect to the fact that I had been handed curriculum maps early on in my teaching career and was told, “Do this, make it work, but never really walked through the process of, until I got a coach in my third year.

And I was able to just use that coach’s wisdom moving forward year after year, despite only having that coach for about six months of one year of, of my seven years of teaching. That support in creating my own curriculum was a pivotal moment in me being able to engage students and see academic success that I had never seen before with a standardized curriculum. So it really connects me on some level, that this may be true. Now it may not have been true for this group. I'm just trying to kind of highlight how different categories lead us to, to different places. But administrators and teachers may believe, right? Again, that belief idea is crucial here. If we're using that language of adaptive challenges, there may be an underlying belief here that curriculum developed by professional curriculum, authors or companies is actually better for students.

But here's the thing I think about. If students are not engaged in the curriculum, then it's not going to do much. Even if it is amazingly designed, research-based, all of the things...if students aren't engaged in it, it's not doing much for those students. And so the path forward in this case, maybe doing some action research to see if the data confirms or rejects the claim that store-bought lessons or units are more engaging than teacher designed lessons or units. And by teacher design, I mean, co-constructed with students to some degree, and I've talked about that in other podcasts, but just this continuum of designing with students and advancing student voice in these designs now, of course, technical fixes. So for example, training, removing other tasks from teachers’ plates so they have time to create the new lessons would definitely be part of the plan moving forward.

But technical fixes in and of themselves can not fix adaptive challenges. So there's much more work that needs to be done on an inner level, a mindset shift, belief shift level that are going to be required if we want results. Right? If people still believe, if teachers still believe that standardized curriculum is better, there's not going to be buy-in for any of those training that you may offer or the support that you may provide, or the time that you might give for teachers to create original curriculum. If there's not a belief that that's going to be better for their students, as we think about all this stuff, as we think about root cause analysis and what that means for us as we lead schools, either leading schools through transformation, if you're in a school that has been identified as a turnaround school or a school that is not meeting standards, according to the state or a school that is doing really well, according to the state, but you know, there's more work that you want to do.

We're always growing and learning as communities. There's a lot here to kind of unpack and to think through and a root cause analysis is an incredibly powerful tool that you can use when used, well, I think it can really be used powerfully to identify and then work through some of those underlying beliefs, habits and loyalties that you can kind of dig into as a multi-stakeholder group. Now, in terms of putting this into practice, as you go forth and tackle those adaptive challenges in your school and conduct your root cause analysis, I encourage you to remember that key question that helps you really realize and recognize when you've reached a true root cause, which comes from again, the adaptive leadership scholars, Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky, what are the habits, beliefs, and loyalties we're holding on to? Do those need to shift? And when I say we're holding onto you, I mean, the people doing this analysis, the stakeholders in the room, right? We don't want to always assume for other folks that we want to make sure everyone who needs to be in the room is in the room for this conversation. And what's so amazing is if we can identify and address those underlying habits, beliefs, and loyalties that need to shift, then the technical fixes, which are also useful, have a chance to finally work their magic.

In the show notes, I'm going to link to a freebie for you, which is an adjusted copy of what I actually created for my students when I was encouraging them to create activist based projects in my class as a teacher. But what I think can also be really helpful for school stakeholders and leadership teams in thinking through these different activities, the five whys, that Ishikawa diagram, the root cause analysis as a whole. And so I'll link to that template with the different activities to help you work through the stuff with your team. Thank you so much for listening to another episode. I am so excited to hear what comes out of this. Please share any root cause analysis stories or root causes that you identify as you do this work together as a leadership team, connecting with multiple stakeholders in your community. I can not wait to hear exactly what you come up with, and if you have any questions along the way, please feel free to reach out. 

Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best.

Today, we are bringing back frequent guests to the Time for a Teachership blog and podcast. Dr. Cherie Bridges Patrick. If you've listened to a previous episode, you already know all about her, but a quick summary. She is the founder of paradox Cross-Cultural Consulting, Training and Empowerment, LLC. She is a racial justice consultant, leadership coach and psychotherapist. She works with social workers, counseling professionals, educators, and organizational leaders. And she uses a trauma focused lens in her work to build leadership capacity for racial justice. Cherie holds a PhD in leadership and change, and her research is in racism, denial, discourse, racial justice, social work and the helping professions like education. I can't wait for you to hear this episode of a conversation between Cherie and I diving into the organizational nature of how we create a culture in our schools for fostering racial justice.

Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change like I was, you are a leader. If you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in.

Lindsay Lyons:
Welcome back, Dr. Bridges Patrick, to an episode of Time for a Teachership. We were together in a previous episode talking about the primacy of discourse, the need for building the muscle for personal and interpersonal discourse capacities. You talk to us about readiness and willingness, vulnerability, adaptability, and the importance of a liberating dialogic environment. For those of you who haven't listened to that episode, please go back and listen to that one. That one is absolutely amazing. I just want to introduce you to Dr. Cherie Bridges Patrick, if you haven't already heard that episode and you are going to dive right into this one Dr. Bridges Patrick is a racism denial and discourse scholar, and she is here to talk to us about how we identify and dismantle systemic racism in educational systems. So today's episode is more focused on that organizational level. We previously talked about the personal and the interpersonal today. We're going to that organizational level. So I'll actually hand it over to Cherie to start us off with the first question. 

Dr. Bridges Patrick:
This is exciting for me because I get to ask you some questions in this. So my first question for you, Lindsay is, at the organizational level, how can schools build capacity for generative dialogue and continuous learning more broadly?

Lindsay Lyons:
Yeah, so I think one of the things that I love about working together is really putting adaptive leadership at the core of all that we do. When we think about that capacity building that is really central to really systematizing a lot of things, systematizing the process of diagnosis, as we talked about really identifying so that we can dismantle so many of the problems that are, you know, general across the system, educationally, nationally, globally, but also very particular to the individual schools that we're talking about. So my first kind of thought whenever I hear this, and I think about organizational capacity building is really to set up structures that enable us to really sustain these conversations that we talked about in our last episode that bring in diverse perspectives of different stakeholder groups and truly share in the leadership and the decision-making of an organization. So we can get a better understanding of the problems and challenges we encounter as well as what solutions and policies would actually address those challenges in an equitable manner. What do you think, Cherie?

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
Can I just add to that? I think we have to, because we're a society with attention challenges and short-term thinking like, you know, we want things done quickly. I want to just touch on that process that you just talked about, the setting up the structures to sustain. To be able to start shifting mindsets and when mindset strips sets are shifted, then you know, we can get into the policy work and how we change that because it all starts with us as individuals. Just talk briefly the length of time that it takes and so I say that,  I hesitate as I hear myself say, there's something because this has been going on for so long,  it is entrenched because we are entrenched in this.

There has to be some time and I know that there are some things that need immediate change. And for those people who think they can make that happen quickly, Great. But I think we need to understand that this process takes time, the time that the process of shifting mindsets of changing policy. Just think of our political system and all the steps that need to happen to make laws change. Right? So if you go into an organization and similar that you've got, you know, you've got your policies and practices, so it takes time. But in that time though, you're always practicing. You're always engaging because of the power of discourse because of its ubiquity as a social practice that is in every aspect of our lives.

Lindsay Lyons:
Excellent points. I absolutely  love those contributions because I particularly love that you're talking about the time piece and how it kind of hits you as you say it, because we have seen people on the one hand rushed to action without the process that needs to be shared. The dialogue that needs to happen among key stakeholders that represent different stakeholder groups. So that rush to action and kind of skipping over the democratic process is problematic. But then we also need to recognize that, you know, we need  to sit in some things with the balance of the urgent call to action, right? So like, we need to take action, because like you said, it's been happening for so long we need to address it. We can't wait a long time to do that, but we also need to make sure the way that we're addressing it really speaks to our priorities as well.

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
Yes. And for me, it goes back to just that primacy of discourse and the need to learn how to engage in generative dialogue. If we can't talk about the issue, we can't talk about race and like you said, sit in some stuff, sit in that discomfort and navigate through it and, you know, and build the capacity to do it. How are we going to solve something that we cannot talk about that then we cannot see because we're not talking about, it's like this elephant in the room that is always there. So we have to be brave enough and bold enough to see the elephant and then to figure out how we are gonna,  do this. So then Lindsay, that takes me to another question. Can you talk a little bit about shared leadership? Like what is shared leadership? Where does this approach come from?

Lindsay Lyons:
Absolutely. So I love shared leadership. I think that's my answer to pretty much everything. But I will talk a little bit about the powerful women who have actually inspired and held up and practiced shared leadership through history. I think it's really important to acknowledge that because when I was first researching shared leadership or when I was first exposed to it in our leadership program, we had this little handbook of leadership theory. And it's interesting because it was a man that was credited for this idea of shared leadership. When in fact, if we go back further, we will see that is not necessarily the case. So it actually came up in the early 20th century, 1924, Mary Parker Follet wrote about shared leadership and the idea of power versus power over. And so this idea of, she says, first by pooling power, we are not giving it up.

And secondly, the power produced by a relationship is a qualitative, not a quantitative thing. She says that this is a "freeing for both sides and an increased total power or increased capacity in the world," and I think that really speaks a lot to the rooting of intersectional feminism, first. And kind of in this approach, when we look out a few decades later, we see Ella Baker a racial justice activist and community organizer who really prioritized developing the leadership of others as opposed to positioning herself as the leader of a movement. It's that selflessness and the nature of building capacity for really young people, students that she was working with, I think is probably why a lot of folks don't know her name as much as a lot of male leaders that we may point to. And she is just, I think my role model in terms of shared leadership development. We also see people today, like U.S. Congresswoman Ayanna Presley her quote, "people closest to the pain should be closest to the power."

That to me is just like, yes, that's what we're, that's what we're trying to do here! If we're talking about ending systemic racism and we don't have people who have been directly impacted by systemic racism that are in the school community as part of that conversation of how to end it, what are we really doing here? So I think these are the powerful women that have really taught me what shared leadership is. I've tried to learn from them and learn from their practice around how we move forward. So really we think about it in a school setting. I look at it from a structural perspective of how decisions are made, who is at that decision-making table? And are there feedback loops because we know the decision-making table is small, right? It has to be kind of representative just in how things are organized and to be able to hear everyone's voices, but we need those feedback loops to be able to go back to the stakeholder groups that the representatives represent and collect that feedback, not just speak for the group without that kind of cycle of going back and getting more data.

And so I'm interested in your perspective, Cherie, of how this idea of shared leadership really supports folx who are laboring for racial justice and the centrality of this idea in racial justice work.

Dr. Bridges Patrick:
Well. So as I was listening to you and, you know, all these things are just jumping out at me. So I'm writing an article about white supremacy and social work and, you know, just  the dominance and the pain and the ways that systemic white supremacy operates is challenging. And those of us that are going to be fighting for working, for laboring towards racial justice. There's a part that I explore this need for like self care and accountability. I want to touch on that self care part and how it ties into shared leadership. So it may not necessarily be self care, but it's this, this collective care, maybe. This work is hard. This work is more challenging than we can ever imagine.

So as an individual, you can get burned out very quickly because the work is very hard, it requires you to take this real deep look at oneself. And then at an organizational level, we're looking for—we're talking about shared leadership. I get to share some of that difficulty, some of that challenge, right? And so in that I'm building relationships with other people, right? We're building intelligence, we're building new knowledge because of our experiences, right? They can then contribute to how do we, you know: How do we actually do this? And you know, we're leaning on the work of Ella Baker and the other women that really brought this, this concept forward. But so shared leadership offers this place of collectivism of just being together with like-minded people who are, who are working towards the same thing.

So then it supports the need  for care. We can call, we can say to one another, "Hey, you know what, I think you might need to, you know, take a little break." So, having that structure allows for some time, for us to sometimes step back. So then there's also this energy that comes with that. I know I have enjoyed tremendously working with you because when we get together, you know, we have our conversations and all these ideas start to generate. So it's shared leadership, you're sharing ideas, and they feed off of each other and they contribute to that feedback loop, which, you know, continues to build. So ultimately shared leadership in terms of racial justice is like this, the support, this, a leveling of the weight that is carried because of the difficulty that it entails. So I, I like to ask you a little bit about the student voice, which is, you know, the area of research that you looked at, what wisdom can we pull from that body of research Lindsay?

Lindsay Lyons:
I absolutely love the field of student voice. This is a relatively kind of emergent, I would say the last three decades kind of emergent field.  I say emergent, because this has always been something historically that different groups of people have practiced. But in terms of the larger or I guess more, maybe more mainstream student voice, like research in journals and such like that. This has become something that is more studied heavily in the last few decades. So we get to see all of the brilliance that schools for a long time, these different pockets of individual schools have been practicing. And so one of the things that I love is Dana Mitra, who was one of the leading scholars in the field. She created a pyramid of student voice, and she talks about these three levels of student voice that exist in schools.

I think this is relevant for students. I think this is relevant for teacher voice and family voice when we're talking about shared leadership and all those stakeholders, but she talks about the bottom level being probably the most common, hence, the kind of pyramid shape it's the largest, but it's also kind of the least effective in some ways. It's merely listening. So we might ask students or families or teachers to fill out a survey, but then that doesn't necessarily mean we do something with that survey. So we listen but that's kind of it. And at the middle level, that next level up is slightly less common but more impactful is a kind of partnership among students and adults. We're working together in concert with one another to accomplish those school goals. At the top, the least common is really building capacity in students. (And again, I think this is relevant for all stakeholders) in themselves to lead. 

And so when we think about students, as leaders, as folks that we can listen to and learn from as adults in the school community, I think this is really that idea of radical collegiality, that the student voice field talks about this idea of partnering and seeing students as equals as people that we can help them learn. Then we also learn from them. This I think is really at the heart of why shared leadership is so helpful and so important. And in order to do that, we need to give students multiple opportunities to be able to take on those leadership roles, to develop the personal and interpersonal capacities that you were talking about, Cherie, in our last episode to engage in racial discourse and to engage in discourse you know, in a generative way about all topics, including oppression of all kinds.

And what's interesting about this. I think when we're talking about sustainability Dana Mitra partnered with another scholar to actually apply turbulence theory to the pyramid. And what they realized was the lowest level of the pyramid that just listening part, it actually increased individual and organizational turbulence because what was happening was they were just surfacing those problems. They were just identifying what was wrong, but they weren't actually doing something about it. They were just kind of bringing them all to the surface and that bubbling up of identification without the follow-up was actually de-stabilizing the schools. Whereas when we look at the top level, when students are able to kind of come out as leaders and say, we're here, we can learn from them, the adults are listening to us. There's actually a reduction in turbulence because we're talking about organization-wide communication.

And that mindset shift that really helps us collectively work towards addressing those problems. And so there's actually an increased stability in terms of where schools can go when we partner with other stakeholders, which I think is really fascinating. So I'm interested in your perspective of Cherie, when I'm talking about these things, I'm thinking about the conversations we've had about why racial justice initiatives have historically failed in schools and organizations more broadly. Particularly we talked about accountability in our last episode, and I'm just thinking about all of these kinds of different pieces for sustainability and identifying and dismantling some of these problems that are identified. So what does that actually look like in terms of what are the problems that have kind of been barriers to success for racial justice initiatives in the past, and then where do we go from there? Like what does accountability, for example, maybe look like at an organizational level?

Dr. Bridges Patrick:
Let me try to tackle this. That's a big question. So then how do we begin to do this? So what I'm tying this turbulence to is—the notion of the concept of turbulence—to Heifetz disequilibrium, right? And so it just jumped out right at me. But then, you know, you often talk about this too. This is the system of diagnosis, right? Adaptive leadership says, you know, one of the most frequent causes of failure is that, you know, the leaders fail to, to really examine the system that they're working within. So, like you said, earlier, folx just jump into the work without really exploring what's happening. So a focus on diagnosis. That means to really drill down and under, you know using that pyramid to like using a combination of those things, but recognizing that the higher up you go in that pyramid, you know, the more progress you're going to make.

So I'm trying to combine those things there in terms of accountability. So this gets hard because there's all these barriers, right? So you know, there's the barriers of just racism itself and what that really means, and white supremacy. So you've got, you know, a group of people who are in power, white people who, come together with these, beliefs, these ideologies, these like lifelong commitments to being white, because that brings what it brings. When we're talking about accountability, there's a lot to dig into because the people who have those ideologies are typically the ones that are in the power. So who's going to want to give up, you know, what they see as, as power you know, as beneficial to them. So then you start asking questions like, okay, so how does this harm the organization?

How does this harm, you know, people within the organization? To bring it through a relational level. And how do we hold people accountable to really seeing the universal harm, of white supremacy of racism, so that there can be this collective effort towards, you know, dismantling and changing our policies and changing. It practices. So understanding that why that I talked about earlier is like what's the why for the organization you know, why are they doing this? And a lot of times organizations are engaged because everybody else is doing it. That's a lot of what I think is happening now in the larger sense of what we're looking at. So, you know, it's like, okay, so everybody else is doing it. It's becoming a practice, but we really don't explore. So organizationally, we need to explore and understand what is our why, and it too needs to be grounded in, you know, something that's going to help keep the organization going, because there's going to be a lot of fatigue, a lot of effort put into this. So that's one area of accountability. 

Offering people support from individuals who are trained and who understand how racism operates. Not the ones that, you know—cause I still, like I said earlier in the other episodes, I still don't know a lot about racism, although I've studied it right. Because it's that complex. So you know, we have to be able to really educate people. And to do that again, it requires these mindshift changes getting through these barriers so that we can do the work. So that accountability is a constant work of breaking down the mental, the ideological, the social barriers  that come with the weight of white supremacy. 

​I'd like to touch on just a little bit about what you said about the student voice, because it was interesting. I don't think he said it this way, you talked about the collegiality between students and teachers, right? So if I remember my days as a student, that teacher was definitely like, you know, he, or she was the one in power and you had to, you know, you had to operate you know, in a construct that was like, they were over you and you were under them, so you have this hierarchy.  I think that's in me, and in my continued experience, I think that's still true to some degree. So now we're shifting from, you know, a position that doesn't necessarily relate to race. But if we take this in the direction of racial justice and your experience as a teacher, as an educator, how do you narrow the gap between, you know, "I'm in charge," the power, to bring it more towards this collegiality to allow students to have this voice. If we're honest, we see young people are the ones doing this heavy work out there, right? There's all kinds of ideas and information that we can get from them. So I'm curious to know, and I know I'm throwing you a curve ball because this is not what we talked about. Could you touch on that a little bit?

Lindsay Lyons:
Absolutely. I think, as you were talking about radical collegiality, maybe not explicitly tied to race, I actually was thinking about the statistics of just who are the teachers, what is currently known as the United States. Most of those teachers are white. Many of whom are working in schools where the population of students are predominantly black and Brown children. So it's interesting that we have both that teacher authority piece, but then we also have that racial piece and the white supremacy piece that plays a role. And so when we're talking, and I know not everyone is in that position, but when we're talking about these kinds of schools, where we have white teachers teaching Black and Brown students, I think that adds a level to that idea of radical collegiality that makes it that much more important. I know we've talked about the idea of kind of white liberalism and one of those practices, or one of those kinds of tenants or aspects of white liberalism being a devaluation of Black and Brown people's expertise on racism.

And so just not enabling students to be part of that conversation. I think ties in there and I just wanted to comment on that really quickly before answering your actual question. But I think there are so many ways as teachers, we talk about having a student centered culture, but if we were really to reflect on what that student centered just meant, if we were really to think about the, the four things I typically ask is: Do your students have an opportunity to decide what they learn? So the content (when they learn), where they learn, and how they learn, if we can't enable students to have voice and choice in those things. And of course sometimes, you know, that's us kind of providing some choices and they choose from that. But other times, and listeners probably will recognize this particular anecdote...

That one time I tried an entire semester, an entire, like, you know, five months of school of students designing their own units. I had 80 different units going at the same time. And just kind of following that path of a personally designed unit that brought them joy, that fed into their creative spirit that enabled them to follow their curiosity. I think that is kind of that radical end of what that might look like. But, you know, if we are truly committed to engaging in this radical collegiality with students, it's going to be a co-construction of what and how we learn. And a lot of times, as teachers, we are told in grad school, when we're getting our teacher's degree, you must have a hundred percent of students quietly, obediently listening to you and following directions. That's what makes a good teacher. When in fact, that does not make a good teacher, that's going to isolate a lot of students.

That's going to send a lot of students to the principal's office when there's this disobedience of weird rules that we think we have to Institute, but that student voice really comes to life. When we use practices like circle, which was really common for me. And I know some people have been taking that to the virtual space where we pose a question about something relevant to students' lives. So for example, we just did this in my college class, but I've done similar things with my high school students around the decision coming in of the Breonna Taylor murder. And so having students have an opportunity each one of them to answer and to just have everyone listen to students' answers,  particularly when those students are kind of seeing their own experiences reflected back at them in current events, like that's what radical collegiality is. It's not coming in with a pre-made lesson plan and telling students what they need to believe it's honoring their experiences and their expertise. So I know that's just one example, but I wanted to, to share that anecdote.

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
As I said, there's all kinds of things just running through my mind as I'm listening to, cause you're saying you know, that last example of the circle experience where those voices that are typical, everybody gets a voice, right? So then they're sharing their experiences. So then that leads to vulnerability, one of the discourse capacities. But it also just keeps me connected to what you said earlier about first, you've got this power dynamic between, you know, teacher and student, and then you've got the other power dynamic of race. You know, it just speaks to the complexity of how all this stuff works together to maintain structures. So what you're asking for, I think the word radical is like on point because it's truly radical and what then do organizations, schools need for their teachers to be able to come into a radical space, you know, mentally, right?

And to create  these spaces where this can happen. Cause as I listened to you talk about how you did this for a semester, you did the student voice. Hey, how would you learn? But to show me what you did and what you would do and you stayed with it. What did it take for you to stay engaged? What did it take for you to really, you know, not lose sight of what you were trying to do? I wondered, like, does that take you to your why? How can you talk to that experience just a little bit? Cause, we overestimate what's involved, but then we also under-estimate. That takes a lot of physical work. Administrative work, but it also takes this work of, of the shift in the mindset. We're talking about the ways that we have been trained, teachers are trained to come in and, you know, you have this information and you give it to people. You are not trying to hear anything. So can you speak to that experience of what did you, what happened in those times? How did you hold on and, and just share with the audience? Like here's some things that are real and here's how I dealt with them.

Lindsay Lyons:
Absolutely. So full transparency. I will not do what I did again, because it was just too long. And the reason I knew that was because students told me, so I think a huge piece of this is those feedback loops of asking the students, checking in with them, how is this going? And the biggest piece of feedback I got from them was "This was an amazing project. However, I would prefer it to be shorter," because they even said they were losing steam, just themselves, trying to orchestrate and follow this complex unit that they developed, even though it was, you know, their passion project, their interests, they were just like, I really wanted it to be done sooner. It was half the length of time. So parsing out all of the student feedback at the end was really valuable to me, what it taught me was not to throw away the project as a whole, but just to make some adaptations.

Another piece that I think is really helpful is that I did not do this by myself. There were 80 different topics, many of which I had no idea about, like some of, one of them was stand up comedy. I am not a standup comic. I am not a particularly funny person, but I do know other people who are really interested in comedy in the school, or, you know, personal connections. What I did was, I tried—I think I got about 50 or 60 students to be connected with people, either in the school or connections that teachers in our school had to outside sources that were experts in those fields. So they became like the content mentors. So I think the first thing was realizing I didn't have to do it alone was huge. And so when we talk about shared leadership and student voice and co-constructing curriculum, we're also talking about how we leverage family members that are experts.

One of the students actually went to her uncle because he was an expert in the topic that she was exploring. And so her uncle got to be her teacher, which is so cool because a lot of times we invalidate the expertise that family members have. And we say, we are the teachers who know how to do school. I think that was a huge realization for me. And I think another thing that supported me was an administrator who was like, go for it. Who said, I will support you. I will show up to the final expo where the students are sharing what they did, and I will celebrate that win. And I'm going to come in occasionally, but I'm not going to say if students are, you know, being very loud, that that's something you're going to get penalized for. I'm going to see that loudness as excitement and energy and things that we typically don't associate with loudness when we're looking in a school and that's often what it was, it wasn't off task loudness.

The students were more focused than ever, and they were just really excited to dig into the work. So I think that admin support was really helpful. And specifically within that admin support, and for me to, to, to kind of realize what was going right, and what I would change is changing the measurement. Like, what am I actually measuring? So instead of measuring student obedience, for example, or discipline rates or something like that about following directions, I instead was measuring, you know, for example, how excited students felt on a day-to-day basis, how valued or heard they felt in the class itself you know, different pieces like that, that are student-reported metrics that we typically don't measure in classrooms was what kept me on track was what kept me energized and what was also something that my admin valued. So I think being able to be in that space that was really set up for me to do an experiment like this was really what made it possible.

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
Thanks, Lindsay. I think your example is like a perfect example for adaptive leadership, right. Combined with shared leadership. Because you had this project, you engaged the students and then you listened to them. You've got that feedback loop and have to have that. So, adaptive leadership talks about that. They talk about not like you start talking about not throwing away the entire project when you realize, Oh my gosh, this is too much, you took what you learned from it. And you narrowed it down and you made adjustments. This was because you didn't have structures in place. You didn't have practices in place that were there to to help guide you through this truly adaptive leadership. Adaptive practice, I mean that there's no rule book for it, right?

There's no policy book that says, this is how you do it. So you went in blindly. Another piece of that, that you talked about is that that support, that organizational support, right? So when we're talking about changing organizations and helping them understand how racism is impacting, you know, all of, all of them, everybody and engage in embedded in their practices and policies, because it's just part of our system that this notion of having the support of the organization is critically important. Because if you don't have that experience, and I know yours was not specific to race, I believe it wasn't, but I mean, there's great lessons. So having that support allows for you to really live into your potential so that you could bring your students into their potential. So it's got all these benefits. And so then it's, it's this process of, of practice, of reflection in a practice that is absolutely essential to the continuation of racial justice and sustaining it over time.

Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you for summarizing, that just feels really nice. Nice to hear how that was connected to adaptive leadership. That's not something I would have immediately thought about. So thank you. Is there anything else that you wanted to add to this conversation before we go through a quick summary of key points here?

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
No, but I do want to say that these are the kinds of conversations that just generate so much energy. You have all these ideas that come together between two people. I wonder what it would be like if you had another person with a different perspective. Who could bring some other insights to how we're looking at things. You know, that's a dream that I have expanding the possibilities by bringing in different perspectives. So that's all I would say. Thanks.

Lindsay Lyons:
Awesome. Thank you. I'm just going to go through a quick summary of some key points that we talked about, and then we'll do a closing call to action. And so we talked a lot about shifting mindsets as a prerequisite for this work and policy change, and specifically radical collegiality when we're talking about students, but also with families and seeing them as true partners in the learning, these things take time. So in that time, as Cherie said, right, the power of discourse, you're always engaging in this. So of course it will take time, but we're constantly doing that work. We're constantly laboring for racial justice on this path. As we kind of co-construct policy and things in a shared leadership setting, the need for self care and collective care, which brings me back to, you know, Audre Lorde's like initial calls for it.

Self care is, I think she says an act of political warfare, right? It is about caring for the self so that we can, as you said, Cherie, support the collective. We're not turning away. We're turning inward for a moment, recharging, and coming back together. And so that shared leadership enabling us to share the weight and building relationships with another in generating energy is a critical piece here. Using that combination of Dana Mitra's pyramid levels to properly diagnose and really systematize the process of diagnosis, as well as dismantle and actually act on the information we're getting in things like surveys to dismantle barriers to racial justice is critical. Tying the accountability to the organization's "why" is really how we sustain the labor through fatigue, which will happen, and really making sure that we're getting support from folx who've studied and are knowledgeable about how racism operates when we're talking about accountability.

We can't just be accountable to ourselves in just kind of our limited mindset of what accountability means, but we're pulling in experts to help us be accountable to our larger community. And finally, just listening to students, measuring what matters, and remembering that adaptive practice does not have a rule book. And that praxis that reflection and action is really what gets us through those adaptive challenges, of course, with organizational support, which is really a huge key there. So as we talk to leaders, as we invite them to take action after this particular episode, what would you say, Cherie, is something that you would encourage leaders to do after listening today?

Dr. Bridges Patrick: 
Wow. I think I'm probably going to sound repetitive here. So from an adaptive leadership lens, that parallel process of examining oneself, you know, that inner glance and inner look/view and while doing that at the same time examining the system. So you've got that parallel process going on, particularly in the context of, of addressing racial dominance in the workplace. Right? So this interior journey is really important to be able to navigate through the external organization. The internal part of oneself. So I recommended this the other day or on the other podcast, but I still think it's very relevant. Some of the things that we can do right away, you know, a lot of times people think that there is something grand that has to be done. But if we're talking about changing mindsets, that means you have to get engaged with your mind. You have to know how it's operating.

So in order to do that, spending just three minutes a day. Observing as just a third party. You're observing what's going on, so you can become familiar. You can make it as easy as what's happening in this interaction with this person what's going on with my body. What am I feeling? What am I noticing, or this is bringing in that somatic aspect of it, which is a big piece of how we continue to disengage from conversations around race. So it's just bringing some attention to how we're functioning as individuals within an organization, which makes us this, you know, the collective place, how are we, how are we working together? You know, you can take that data and apply it to, well, how does it impact, you know, our practices. Cause I, when we can begin to explore those things and become familiar with them, I think that can take us a long way. So that's one thing.

Lindsay Lyons:
Excellent. Thanks. I actually want to say too by the time this episode airs there will be a previous episode that I actually created for free before that is a daily journal for 30 days. And so you can use that journal to do exactly what Cherie's saying, where you're journaling for three minutes about that critical reflection. And again, bringing in other, other folx in other resources that we kind of talked about in our previous episode as well to kind of deepen your critical self-reflection there. So thank you for bringing that up again. I'm glad you did. I would say that you know, I was actually inspired by what you said earlier. I would actually recommend that you find someone to talk to like Cherie and I do. We have a standing weekly meeting and we just kind of brainstorm. Really amazing things come out of it, I think.

Lindsay Lyons:
We are doing a lot of professional work together, but it's also, I think just the ideas that flow when you have someone to talk to you and think through some of the adaptive leadership work with. So I think that's something that you can potentially do. Another thing, if you're interested in kind of the student voice element and trying to seek out students' ideas and perceptions of their leadership opportunities in your school is that you can use my, a statistically validated student leadership capacity building survey. So I'm going to link that as the freebie for this episode, just so you can start to kind of collect some data around whether or not students actually feel like they do have an opportunity to lead in schools. And in what ways do they have, you know, an opportunity to make decisions at the school level, at the curriculum level, in their classes?

Lindsay Lyons:
Do they have the professional development for themselves as leaders where they're building those personal dialogic capacities that should be talked about in our, in our recent episode? So these are some of the things that we might want to know about students, and I will link to that in the show notes. So thank you all for listening to another episode, there was so much in here, please let us know what you got from this. We have Time for a Teachership Facebook group. If you want to go in there and chat through your takeaways, we will see you next week.

Lindsay Lyons:
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best.

Today's podcast was recorded the day of the 2020 election. In it, I talk about pushing back against this notion of teacher neutrality. This is a solo show. Just me, no guests pushing back against this entrenched concept of neutrality that I think we need to unpack to do right by our students, right by ourselves, and right by our society. I hope you enjoy this episode.
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Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive anti-racist culture, where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader, turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach, or a classroom teacher, excited about school-wide change, like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in

Today, I want to talk about teacher neutrality or the concept of teacher neutrality. I want to push back on it. I'm recording this episode on Tuesday, November 3rd. So the day of the US 2020 presidential election. And I'm thinking back to 2016, when my colleagues and I effectively suspended our regular course content for the year in helping our students process the results of the election and the feelings that they had around, the election of Donald Trump to the presidency of the United States. And thinking about preparing to teach my  college class tomorrow, and also not knowing if we will have a definitive answer as to who the president will be for the next four years. At that point, I'm thinking about all of the other teachers in that same position, wondering what exactly they're going to say and how to approach the conversation about the election results in the coming day, the coming week, the coming months, as we continue being in our classroom spaces together and fostering a culture of anti-racism and productive generative dialogue that digs into issues of oppression.

And so I guess my dream here is that as we digest the news about the election, whenever it does come, that we don't try to adhere to this notion of neutrality that I see as truly a false notion of neutrality. So some folx may say, Whoa, Lindsay, that is way too radical or way off base here. I just want to share why I don't believe in this idea of teacher neutrality and why as a teacher, I took risks that at times I thought might get me fired, because I felt like it was the right thing to do. And when we teach, you know, this, this idea of civil disobedience and we glorify it breaking the unjust laws, right? We're talking about laws there. If teacher neutrality is just a norm, or kind of an unspoken norm that we believe exists, it's not necessarily a law.

And if it is in our contracts,  again, I go back to that notion of glorified, civil disobedience, and we teach it. We talk about activists who are powerful and made a difference. And I suppose the question I have is: Are we willing to be the people that we glorify in teaching history classes and teaching this content to our students? Are we willing to push back against a regulation in our contracts, or if not an unspoken norm or agreement that we should remain neutral. And that's what a good teacher does. So here's why I think this idea of neutrality is not something that I want to adhere to nor do I hope that you know, others do. The first reason is because it's just not accurate, this concept of neutrality. If it means how we've always done things, how we've always taught history, how we have always centered whiteness and cis-genderedness and maleness, if neutrality is that, it's not neutral. That's just not neutral.

Supporting the status quo is not neutral. When we know that supporting the status quo means that students who are Black, Brown, or Indigenous or transgender or students with dis/abilities when they don't get the same results as white cis-gendered rich students get. So if it's not accurate, if this concept of neutrality truly isn't neutral, I think we have to push back against this idea that speaking against injustice and teaching about politicians or the election or particular rules or Supreme Court decisions, pushing back against some of them as unjust, right? I think that is what we need to do to advance justice in our country and in our classrooms. The second problem I have with the concept of neutrality is this idea of neutrality being just neutrality in the way we conceive of it. If it means what I just said, it's not just the way we've always done things.I love Archbishop Desmond Tutu's famous quote, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."

I think this is so poignant when we're thinking about the fact that we are serving all students in education. That is our purpose. That is our mission. When it comes down to it, if asked to choose to remain "neutral," supporting the status quo, the way things have always been...

To speak out and speak for justice at perhaps a great risk to ourselves in our careers at perhaps a risk of having really uncomfortable conversations with parents who don't agree with your stance on the false notion of teacher neutrality with bosses, perhaps colleagues or family members who disapprove of your decision, that's truly what justice means, right? To reject the status quo. It is not just. So, staying neutral or "apolitical" is also an advantage. If you say that you are neutral or apolitical you're effectively sharing that your humanity and your human rights are not at risk here. And so you have the privilege or the advantage to remain neutral in a particular political conversation or situation. If your rights are not as risk as an individual, then you can opt out of a conversation with little risk to yourself. You can avoid that discomfort, which is a manifestation of white supremacy, right?

As a tool of white supremacy, to avoid the discomfort, to not take risks, to not jeopardize the status quo that has served you. The reality is, most teachers, about 80% of teachers in the United States are white. Most students at this point in the United States are not white. And so there's this additional dynamic of who are we serving and who are we? What are we willing to risk to serve our students properly? Now you might be wondering well, this idea, in theory, of pushing back against neutrality, I'm with you. I agree, but how does this actually happen? How does this play out so that I walk the line between not getting fired or not putting my career in jeopardy and my livelihood on the table, and am also pursuing justice?

And I will say that there are no easy answers here. That absolutely is a risk. And I just invite us to have that conversation first and foremost with one another about what that means. And if we can talk about it as colleagues, as adults, even with students, about what neutrality means in a broader sense, not necessarily as in the teacher sense—as a responsibility of teachers—but just generally, if we can have those conversations and produce generative dialogue about what this means for our conversations as a school community and as a larger community as well, I think we're getting there, right? We're making progress if we can do that. Well, I also want to say different teachers and different people have different degrees of risk. So for folx who can say, I am apolitical, or I am staying neutral on this because it doesn't risk your individual rights. Those folks have less risk typically in cases like this. And therefore it is more important that those folx step up to the plate here and take on some of that risk that other folx who have not been advantaged by our systems have been having to keep on their shoulders and have had to shoulder those risks far and above anyone else. And so it's time those of us who are at less of a risk in that scenario to step up and take on that risk and to voice our resistance to this concept of neutrality, which does not serve our students.

Logistically speaking in the classroom, this looks like conversational agreements, that center justice, that center dignity and ensure that a person or a group's humanity is not up for debate. This is a central tenet of having these conversations. We cannot ensure a space in which students are going to want to return to conversations like this in a space in which students feel loved and supported in a sense of belonging, if we don't agree that a basic guideline that is foundational to productive conversations about oppression is that we cannot disagree with who a person is. We cannot say that their identity is invalid or their experiences are invalid.

So we can honor the dignity and the experiences of people and disagree about where we're going to make a better world for everyone, but not about the dignity of the person themselves. In addition to setting human guidelines—guidelines for the conversation that center human dignity and make sure that we are not going to violate that—academic guidelines can also be established. So as an educational institution where your purpose is to support students, to have a better academic understanding of things like research and data, and fact versus fiction, academic guidelines can be established for the conversation because where conversations can get derailed is if we say everyone's opinion is valid without the consideration of factual information and where that information is coming from. So source quality, quality of research design, things like that. You can absolutely look at a research design and interrogate its sample, representativeness, all of that stuff. That's actually a great way to apply some key ideas about research and think about the applications of things you might be studying in the real world. Absolutely do a source analysis, do all of those things, but we cannot ignore data and statistics. We cannot ignore facts. That is part of our responsibility as an educational institution in this conversation.

So again, you can disagree with how to solve problems. I think that's what politics really should be all about. How do we create a better world for everyone? How we get there might look different and we can disagree about that, but we can't disagree with people's humanity and the necessity for people to have their full set of human rights. And we can also not disagree with the fact that problems exist when data points to the fact that those problems exist. And so the next step in terms of getting started with this work, of course, this is going to look different for every community, depending on what grade level you teach, where you teach, the population you serve in terms of student demographics, geographic nature of your school, teacher readiness and teacher demographics as well.

But as a leader, if you are a school leader, a principal, superintendent, assistant principal, you can bring this issue up with your staff. Many staff members have been thinking about it. They may be thinking differently about it. They may be thinking similarly to you, different from others, but they have been thinking about it in one way or another, this election and just current events in general affect everything we do. They affect us as individuals, as people, as teachers, they impact our pedagogy and our considerations when we determine what and how we are going to teach.

What you can do as a leader is prepare how you want to talk about it with your staff and offer some shared language, to provide opportunities for teachers to talk about how they're going to talk about issues in their class. So provide some language around discussion agreements or values to uphold in class conversations. What are the guidelines? What are the shared parameters that our school can come up with to say, we are not going to violate another person's dignity. What does that language look like for your school, for your grade level? And maybe co-construct that with your staff. Another thing to consider is conversations with families. So consider that shared language that you want to have with staff so that if a family member comes in and addresses what they see as this issue of violating teacher neutrality, you can provide a buffer between the teacher and the parent.

So you're kind of the first stop. So that family members aren't directly calling teachers, and you can provide that information and share that this is a school-wide initiative. This is our set of guidelines that we collectively came up with to have conversations about important issues. You can also support teachers and provide professional development opportunities, coaching support in the form of observations of these classes, not to judge or grade teacher performance, but to take in what's happening and collectively brainstorm where teachers can go from there or how to address problems that may arise. Now as a teacher, you can determine your guidelines for your class. Of course, you can bring it up to the larger school. You can ask your boss about creating opportunities for a larger staff wide conversation, but you can also, if you feel isolated in this journey, if you're the only one that seems to be doing this, you can determine the guidelines and the language that you will use in your own individual class to talk to students, to talk to family members who may come and talk to you about what you're teaching students and what you're talking about in your class.

You also may want to prepare for colleagues—if you are on this journey alone—who may tell you that it is your job to stay neutral or remain apolitical. So you might want to prepare exactly what you want to say to those colleagues, to have that language ready to go, to share some additional resources, which I'll be sharing with you at the end of this episode, so that they can kind of explore those questions and push back against that notion of teacher neutrality as it fits for them. And as always, we need to build up our collective and individual literacies around various identities and forms of injustice so that we can facilitate conversations with our students, but also with adults, with our colleagues, with our families, with our bosses, with our students' family members on issues of racism and white supremacy, on issues of nativism and sexism, on issues of ableism and homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, all the topics that may surface in conversations around the election specifically, or more broadly around any current events that happen throughout the year and not just in this moment in time.

In the show notes today, I'm going to link to a bunch of resources to support you in further exploring this concept of neutrality. So you can kind of get started. You can share some of these resources with your colleagues or with family members, and it might provide you a kind of shared language to figure out exactly what we are trying to do here in the field of education. What are we trying to do as teachers? Why did we get into this field and who are we trying to be as individuals? How are we bringing our whole selves into the class? If you're an activist outside, if you're going to Black Lives Matter protests, but you are showing up in class to remain neutral...that does something to you, right? That does something to you as an individual.

It prevents you from being able to show up and bring a lens of justice, a centering of justice, a core of justice into how you teach and what you teach. And as a clear caveat here, I am not at all saying that you need to tell students how to think and that students all need to agree with you. I think that is something that I continue to work on because I am very clear in my passion for feminism, for anti-racism, but I also don't see those passions as something that is political, because again, they center people's dignity. They say, I am fighting for justice for all students, for all people. If I was pushing a particular agenda for a policy or for some sort of, again, solution to how we attain justice for everyone, that's not something I need my students to agree with me on, but I need students to center the justice of all people in our conversations.

And if there is a trans student in the room, if there is a student who is gay in the room, if there is a student who is Black, Brown or Indigenous in the room, if there are a bunch of hetero, cis-gendered white kids in the room, I need them to know that they matter, their peers matter, and that everyone's dignity and humanity matters. So I see that as the clear difference between pushing my own beliefs and making sure that we center justice and humanity for all folx in our class. So the resources I will link today include a resource from Teaching While White, which is a podcast. The episode is called "No Neutral Zone" and features a wonderful interview with a teacher who shares his own personal identity—for a while. He found himself kind of covering up who he really was in the class. And then now being open about his identity with his students and how he teaches and sees the concept of neutrality. It's a fascinating listen.

Also, April Brown wrote a blog post called "Talking with Young Kids About Elections, Democracy, and Justice For All." There are a bunch of great resources in terms of texts that you could use to center conversations around elections, democracy, and justice for young kids. I think this is particularly powerful because a lot of times in conversations about social issues about racial injustice, about, sexism or consent or all these things that are really central to how we live as human beings and absolutely are important to talk about in, you know, the young grades sometimes feel like either they shouldn't be talked about, or they should, but they're not sure exactly how to go about that conversation because of course, it's going to look different from a conversation with a bunch of high school students when you're talking to a bunch of first graders or kindergartners. And so this is a powerful blog post to check out.

And finally, a resource from the Teaching Tolerance website. This is an article written by Corey Collins called "Teaching the 2020 Election: What Will You Do On Wednesday?" So specifically speaking about the election and thinking about that notion, which it references in the posts, I'm thinking about pushing back on that notion of teacher neutrality, and it actually links to another blog post—tons of blog posts, actually—within that article, from Teaching Tolerance, one of which does directly address a teacher kind of reckoning with that notion of neutrality and, and kind of walking the line, so to speak, between having students believe exactly what he believes and centering justice in conversations with students. And so I thought that was a powerful rate as well. I'll link to all of those resources in the show notes for today, so that you can check them out.

If you have any resources that you would like to share about how you are addressing the election or current events more generally in your classes this year, how you're fostering these conversations with colleagues in staff meetings, in department meetings in just kind of "water-cooler" conversation moments (if those moments exist via Zoom or in-person)., and how you're talking about them with students, if there are activities that you want to share or shared language that you want to let us know about, please Let me know. 

You can find me on social media, or you can drop a link to one of your resources if you're willing to share, or just a comment about how that's going in your class and the approach that you've been taking and how you're thinking about this notion of teacher neutrality in the year 2020.

Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at Lindsay Beth Lyons, or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best.

I'm so excited for you to hear today's episode featuring Kholood Qumei. She is an educational genius. I'm so excited that I was able to share a room with her. When I did my teaching in New York City. She currently teaches 10th and 11th-grade social studies and ESL in New York. She worked with the International Rescue Committee of New York and New Jersey. Her Master's comes from Teachers’ College. She's currently back there, again, pursuing an EdM in international education and development with a concentration in languages, literacies, and cultures. I cannot wait for you to hear this insightful conversation with Kholood.

Lindsay Lyons: 
I am so excited to introduce to you my former colleague and amazing friend today on the podcast, Kholood Qumei, who is literally one of the most inspiring motivating people that I have just the privilege of having in my life. She introduced to me this idea of marigolds, but she credits Cult of Pedagogy's Jennifer Gonzalez as sharing it. But just this idea that you know, marigolds really have these roots that are healthy and nurturing and giving, and also, you know, by giving we grow and this two-way relationship of just thriving and growing together. I think epitomizes just my experience of my relationship with Kholood. So I am so excited to introduce to you today, um, Kholood and her brilliance, and I'm just going to actually let her introduce herself in the way that she would like to just tell us a little bit about her journey to education, her background, her research, all the things that== you know, bring her excellence into this space today.

Kholood Qumei: 
Thank you so much, Lindsay, you are so awesome and you are definitely a Marigold in my life. So I appreciate that. I will, yeah, I'll go ahead and introduce myself. So, as you said, my name is Kholood Qumei and, I am living that hyphenated life where I am an Arab-Filipina-American. I was born in Brooklyn, but then I spent my K through six years. So my elementary formative years in Amman Jordan, and then I moved back to the United States to do seventh through 12th grade. And then just ended up staying here for university. So, right now I am a 10th and 11th-grade social studies teacher in New York City. In another life though, I used to work with the International Rescue Committee in New York and New Jersey in different capacities. Started out interning with them, and then realized more and more that I wanted to get into the education field.

Kholood Qumei: 
And then let's see what else. Yeah. Education was never really, I didn't know that this would be where I would end up, but my undergrad was in international relations. I had a stint in divinity school thinking I would get my Master's in theological studies that now, after getting my MA in TESOL with a K-12 certification from, from TC, from Teachers College, I'm working full time and also back as a graduate student yet again, pursuing my EdM and International Education and development, and I'm concentrating on the field of languages, literacies, and cultures.

Lindsay Lyons: 
Awesome. There is so much there that you have accomplished already, and that is so impressive. Thank you for sharing that. I think one of the things that are really exciting about just our conversations that we've had about education is kind of like big thinking or our big dreaming about what education could possibly be. And so I think that's kind of the question I want to start with. What's the big dream that you hold for the field of education, if you could kind of dream it into being, what would that actually look like?

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah. Initially when I first thought about this question, my, my first answer was equity in education, right? Like that's something that I think so many of us today are striving for, but then I really thought a little more deeply and I was like, well, for me, what's my big dream for education and it is equity, but I really, I really love this emphasis on multilingual learning because I think that, you know, language is something that I'm really passionate about and I think it needs to be brought into the conversation a lot more. So, so many incredible people are doing anti-racist work and talking about the decolonization of education and pedagogy, and I think that language needs to be a part of the conversation on equity, where language diversity is really celebrated and incorporated in the schools both from the bottom to top and top to bottom. Because there's so much history that we can talk, you know, ad nauseam about, about language linguistics and colonialism because we still see today without, without even really recognizing it sometimes unless we pause the colonial legacy in our curriculum and you know, English is a very dominant thing, right?

Kholood Qumei:
So I know there are discourses on globalization, global English and this idea that you know, English is supposed to be good because, you know, it expands global markets and it enhances economic expansion, but all of this is really at the expense of people's languages and diminishing them. And then, you know, going, like you said, from these big ideas to more specific ones, I see it being diminished in my students. So that's my big dream is equity in educational development through multilingual education. Uh, yeah, that's how I would really like to frame this conversation.

Lindsay Lyons: 
Awesome. I love that. And I wanted to pick up on a couple of things you said there about just even colonialism and recognizing, just being aware of and calling out and naming things like colonialism or things like just the absence of multilingualism or language in our conversations about equity. Too often, it is absent and I'm glad you, you brought attention to that. So that makes me think about the mindsets that we have as educators and, you know, as ways that we think about how education should look or how it's historically been. So what mindset shifts do you think are really required for educators and educational leaders to really buy into and, and the things that are really that you see are necessary in order to achieve this dream or work towards that dream. ,

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah, and I think, I think that you know, in this case, we're talking more and maybe the audience is more of the American audience. So we're primarily focused here in the United States, but I think that's part of the, part of the issue, right, is that we are so America-centric. Nut I think a major mindset, mindset shift, sorry, is to think more globally, more internationally, and to, to really look beyond ourselves, both at the individual level and as a country, because there are so many great things happening out there, all around the world on all the continents that we need to be more aware of, language, education, policy, language practices, and a major mindset shift that we need to think about is, is our own language ideologies. This is something that I've been really getting into lately.

Kholood Qumei: 
So, you know, an ideology is a belief. So what is our belief on languages, as educators, especially? And before I enrolled in my program, I really, you know, I come from the ESL world with my first Master's degree. And so the whole idea was, you know, to help students get to speak English. And this is part of the American assimilation narrative. And, you know, and I get that. And I, I worked in some capacities doing, the State Department mandated cultural orientation for recently arrived refugees, but the more I started thinking about it, and the more I started thinking even of the history of ESL is how Western English-dominated it is and how that in and of itself is problematic and how we need to rethink that. So even calling the students, "English Language Learners" is so diminishing for them because they have other amazing capacities that some people truly don't have that I don't have.

Kholood Qumei: 
You know, some of them speak more than four languages. And so that's a shift from this monoglossic language ideology that is maybe so deeply embedded in this education system that maybe we need to have a more critical approach to it. And so that's more of a heteroglossic perspective and language ideology where we see that multilingualism should and can be normalized. My advisor calls it the "multi-lingual habitus", which I really love,—Carol Benson. She's amazing. So I'm really trying to adopt this language in my own life and work, but a multi-lingual habit where, you know, it's, it's drawing on people's strengths and recognizing multilingualism as really an asset. So even, even not using the language majority versus minority, like, "Oh, these are minority languages", you know, because sometimes the numbers, the numbers don't point to that. So instead of adopting language like dominant versus non-dominant, or even calling things, not a minority, but "minoritized" to emphasize that this is something that's happening to them. So really that's, I mean, in some, the mindset shift, it has to be a lot of self-reflection and looking beyond the self on so many different levels.

Lindsay Lyons:
Oh my gosh, there are so many things in there that I think we could talk about for days. But I think one of the things, two of the things that really stick out to me is one that non-US-centric idea, and that I think is, is a huge, huge piece paired with that idea of that assimilationist narrative, that idea that "Indian boarding schools," right, removed, people from their families removed their hair from their heads, their clothing on their bodies and their language from their tongues. Right? And, said that this is what it means to be American. And I think as educators, we need to recognize that is the history of what it has been in the United States. That, in addition to so many more, examples, but I mean, that's, that's what we have grown from. Like our education is rooted.

Lindsay Lyons:
Our system is rooted in that assimilationist narrative. And so stopping our language from problematizing students because they're "English Language Learners", as opposed to seeing, I love the phrase "multi-lingual habitus" and like seeing the assets, the brilliance that is required to be multilingual. Many of our teachers are not right? I, myself am not. And so I think that's a huge, huge shift. Thank you for sharing that. When we talk about, you know, like, how do we make this happen? So we have the mindset shift we're like ready to embrace, non-US- centric perspectives, we're ready to embrace the multi-lingual habitus. Like, what does that actually look like in terms of a teacher or a leader of educational development, you know, taking action towards that dream of, of that multi-lingual habitus or multilingual education being done in a way where students are thriving in schools?

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah, I get frustrated by this a lot because it's that action step, right? It's like, okay, what can I do? And sometimes I feel like I need to be in 50 different places at once, but then I realized well, we're spread too thin. Let's focus and be more effective focusing like one thing at a time. But, I feel like now in my role, as both a practitioner, as an educator, someone deeply devoted to their students, but also someone who is a perpetual student kind of at this point of a perpetual graduate student, it's never-ending, but you know, that's fine. But you know, as a practitioner, I get really frustrated in certain situations where I, you know, in my coming across different pieces of literature that have fantastic ideas, I want to implement them. And then also as a graduate student, I become equally frustrated when the literature doesn't take into account educators like an actual educator's perspective and voices when they make recommendations.

Kholood Qumei: 
So, then I think about actions and I think actions need to be mindful of both perspectives. And really as educators, the work starts with ourselves. And I know that this is something that so many people talk about and I think it's easier said than done, right? But how do you challenge these preconceived notions, your, your ideas, your biases? And especially when it comes to language again, something I'm so passionate about, because I know that there's so much amazing work that is going on with anti-racist work, and challenging those preconceived notions. But I really, I would love to challenge others to think about their own biases with language. So what actions can be taken, what can people do in their schools? I think at a school level, maybe engaging more in the small steps. I know that a few of us started a book club, I think was it two years ago at this point?

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah. Book club, monthly and engaging in really, really thoughtful readings and then sometimes not thoughtful because we needed a break. But you know, when you learn something, running PDs, right, encouraging your colleagues to attend conferences with you, giving each other critical and meaningful feedback on your curriculum, on your pedagogy, asking people, what they think being vulnerable in that sense. And I know that when we work together, I so admired you and your work, Lindsay, that, that you were probably the first person I always went to for that kind of meaningful exchange and feedback to take actions, to have these mind shifts that we're talking about. But then I think comes the question like, okay, and this is, this is the frustration that I was talking about earlier where, you know, I think there are so many of us educators who are doing the work, putting in the time, learning about ourselves, how we can be better, how we can do better.

Kholood Qumei: 
But then how, how do we make the next jump? Right? Because a lot of these issues are they're systemic. How do we challenge that? You know, I think in politics, people say that that next jump is, you know, with active citizenship and civics, civic participation. And one example is voting, among many, many other ways of civic participation, but I would love to see more educators at the table doing work with policy discussions and being in positions of power. I find it really challenging to accept when there's a person in power in the education world who's never taught a day in their life. You know, and then I also see many educators who have so many fantastic ideas who want to stay in the classroom because that's the kind of people that we are. We love our students, we love our work. I have those moments where I'm like, I don't want to leave, but is there a way to do both? So, having that balance, but being...doing the work ourselves and being a part of that conversation, that larger conversation, I think that that is how a lot of that mindset shift can really start to come to fruition.

Lindsay Lyons: 
I love that because they also think it speaks to my research that I talk about all the time like shared leadership and thinking about how do we make sure that teachers are at that decision-making table in schools, but also beyond. And like you were saying, like in political positions, in policy-making positions, and I'm almost thinking too, you know, how, how about students and family members as well, who are multilingual to be in those positions of power, as well as shaping policy and, you know, thinking about those recommendations for schools individually as a community, but then also beyond. And I think that's an incredibly powerful shift when we can shift from like individual work to systemic work. So I appreciate you sharing that. I think a lot of the teachers that I talk to and the questions that they ask of me is like, "Okay, tell me a strategy." Like, "Give me a strategy to use."

Lindsay Lyons: 
And while I think sometimes that oversimplifies the problem or approach, I guess I should say to address how, how we create spaces for multilingual students to thrive. I think it's also something that is tangible like you were saying and making sure that, you know, what we communicate is practical for educators. What are some of the key concepts that you've learned about, or the particular strategies that you've learned about in your research or you use in your practice that you would recommend that are maybe those top strategies or recommendations that teachers could take and apply in practice?

Kholood Qumei:
Yeah. I love that you bring that up, Lindsay, because I know I sometimes, and just, you know, like I want to open a blog and find a strategy immediately that I can implement tomorrow. And sometimes I do find amazing strategies, you know, and sometimes, sometimes I don't, but, you know, it's, it's definitely a combination right? The mindset that then organically translates in...translates rather...into a practice that we have. And also knowing some strategies. Right. So for me, I think, you know, we hear funds of knowledge, we hear removing deficit perspective, but what does that actually mean when you've implemented a strategy? Like, we can believe that as much as we want, but then if we don't do that in the classroom, it, it kind of doesn't mean as much. But I really personally love allowing students to use their home language.

Kholood Qumei: 
I completely understand and honor the fact that some educators actually, not some, that many educators we're, so we're so pressured by standardized testing, right. Because our job is to help the kids. We want to get them to a place where they are, you know, taking—I can just also talk about the issues with assessment for a while, but I won't—because you know, our multilingual learners—I'm not going to use English language learners—but our multilingual learners, their accommodations, right? They have accommodations. So they're an afterthought. The test is not designed for them. So there's, there are inherent problems there, but as much as we want to, you know, help them, sometimes it sometimes before they can make that jump, we need to, we, as teachers need to also honor their home languages a little bit more and telling them, you know, "Yeah, like now is a great time if you want to use it," whether, you know, jotting down ideas on paper, or if, you know, some kids are lucky enough where there are other students in the classroom who share the same home language, allowing them space and time for that.

Kholood Qumei: 
And also really being mindful of literacy practices. Right. So, you know, one area that I really focus on is the Arabic language and recognizing that whether, because of interrupted formal education in some of these contexts and countries, um, or because, you know, Arabic is diglossic in nature. So that means that there's, there is like a standardized Arabic, and then there are also different varieties and I will not call them "dialects". I call them "varieties" and different languages of Arabic. Right? So, you know, for me, I can write in standard Arabic, but when it comes to my home language, the Levantine variety of Arabic, it's not standardized. So it's mostly transliterating, orthographically, whatever is like coming out of my mouth. So sometimes students have different experiences with literacies even in their home languages. So allowing opportunities for drawing or speaking, you know, it doesn't—pen to paper is really hard for students sometimes.

Kholood Qumei: 
And we don't, we don't pause to think about that. So my biggest strategy, I guess, in sum, that I would, I would give is, you know, allowing space and time and recognition of home language and really getting to know the students' home languages, because I see so many, so many, you know, papers that come from the system that labeled their language like, Oh, this student speaks Spanish, the student speaks French, Arabic, Bengali. But what does that actually mean? Because that's not that that oftentimes is not even their home language. You know, I've, I've seen Wolof a little bit more, for some of our Senegalese students, a little bit more now than, rather than just French, but there so many languages in Senegal, you know, Wolof is the lingua franca there, but it might not be our students’ home languages. And so we need to do a better job in learning that, and maybe with needs assessments, finding that out, finding out their skill sets there, and then using that because again, just because they don't speak English doesn't mean that our students are disadvantaged. We need to just, we need to eliminate that belief, and we can learn from them.

Lindsay Lyons: 
Oh my gosh, I love that. You said that, like, I think, you know, I think so much of this is—I often say that standardized curriculum or standardized practices are, you know, difficult because there is this exchange, right? There's this exchange between what our students teach us and what we are able to teach our students. And the fact that we're in partnership and learning together, I think is a really important point. And I love that you highlighted, you know, this is what it looks like to do this in a particular space. You get to know your students, you get to ask those questions, you get them to tell you in their own words, you know, what their home languages and not just trust that what is given to us on paper is what is, and I think that's really important in terms of just the partnership that we have with our students.

Lindsay Lyons: 
And, and again, going back to that mindset of we're together, and it's going to be responsive to the needs of our students and not just, I'm going to do teaching in this one way. I love that you used the phrase, and I'm paraphrasing here, but I wrote down something like the tests we accommodate students. Multilingual students for tests, "the test is not designed for them". And I think that's really important when we're framing and grounding our work and curriculum and assessments that we design. Are we grounding it in an approach that involves all students and enables all students to be successful, or are we just accommodating and adapting something that was not designed for all students? And so I just wanted to highlight that those I think are really important points. And I love that you also talked a little bit about your own students, and so you teach in a school where all students are multilingual. So, we taught in that same school together and it was beautiful what we can learn from our own students. And I would love it if you could just share maybe a particular either lesson or strategy or even student—individual student's story that highlights, you know, the success that we can have when we thoughtfully designed those learning experiences with multilingual students in mind and really centering their, their needs and strengths.

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah. I think when I started my career as a teacher, and I think the reason why I ended up choosing the TESOL certification was because of my own experience. I came to America in seventh grade knowing English. My mom made sure that we tried to speak it as much as he could at home because she always knew that she wanted to come to America. But I think that I was drawing on my own experiences in seventh grade and you know, that silent period, because, and that's why I'm really emphasizing, right, like honoring home language, and knowing the home language because, Oh my goodness, just learning that, you know, Spanish was not actually the first language of, you know, some of my students, especially from, you know, like my students who speak, K'iche or Quechua, that was, that was major.

Kholood Qumei: 
And that was an education for me because I knew nothing about it. So it was also a vulnerability and education on my part. But, to go back to your question, a particular lesson or strategy or story...there's, I, well...I've been doing, I didn't know, I think, well, you know, this, but I've been doing more, more work around maps because I've, I've gotten really international geographic education. I actually got their fellowship, which was really exciting. So, um, I got the Grosvenor Teacher Fellowship and got to go to Antarctica. And so bringing that to our students has been so phenomenal, but more than just learning about Antarctica. And that was a whole thing in and of itself was just rethinking geography and place and space, especially in the context of our multilingual learners. Again, thinking of funds of knowledge, thinking of what strengths they bring, and finding a way to create a mini maps unit, that looked at maps, but also perspective and bias.

Kholood Qumei: 
Starting very simply allowing space for home language and, you know, multiple literacies where there was a lot of drawing, a lot of speaking, and not, I did not start with any like kind of essay prompts or anything like that, although there is a time and place for that, at that, that was a really cool experience. And I do particularly remember the first time doing it, the mini maps unit, it covered all the maps on the walls, which is there for this. No, I don't think, I don't think so after. Yeah. So, I have the traditional standardized, widely accepted yet highly problematic Mercator projection. And then also the Gall-Peters and also an upside-down one. I've been trying to get my hand on an Asia-centric map as well. But yeah, so having students just first draw what the world map, what they think it looks like to them.

Kholood Qumei: 
And that was really cool because it was a space for drawing. Some students ended up using a lot more language, in the maps, so they were labeling things, other kids were not, and that was also completely fine, but then allowing them to, at first in small groups in pairs explain it to each other and then out loud with the whole class, like sharing their surprising moments, their shocks their interesting comments. And then from there, you know, learning more about the language of geography, so there's the vocabulary input, but it's grounded in something that we've already started, and also building on what they know, because I didn't know. And that's why I kind of wanted to start with this—curious about where in their home countries is geography taught there? And for some of our students, it was an Asia-centric map.

Kholood Qumei: 
Right. And it was also cool to see which places were bigger, which places were completely forgotten. Right? You know, everyone remembered Antarctica because they kept talking about it for years. But yeah, slowly starting from there and moving from, you know, the conversation eventually to the written. And it was really great where at the end when we were writing about imperialism and doing an essay on imperialism, students circling back to this unit opener, I guess a hook mini, mini-unit, and especially in their conclusion that "So what?" part, cause I think that's the hardest thing to teach a student, even myself as the grad student that "So what?" part. But yeah, that was, that was really, that was really a fun unit that I could share that. I think it was really a high challenge because you're really challenging the students to think critically when you start introducing perspective and bias, why certain maps are the way they are. And then looking at different maps, we eventually looked at, you know, physical maps, political maps, topological maps, climate maps, but then also from different places and across different time periods. So that was, that was pretty neat while also making it accessible.

Lindsay Lyons: 
That is an amazing unit. I saw—I think I was there when you started doing map units, but, I did not see the evolution to that point. That sounds phenomenal. And I would encourage any listener who teaches social studies to do that unit because I think there's so much that you're teaching there, you're embedding criticality, you're embedding intellect, you're starting where students are and you're inviting them to share their brilliance and, and really educate each other and ourselves as teachers being able to learn from students in that way, I think is just so profound. And I also think it's a great example of—I talk a lot about co-constructing curriculum with students. And so while you were there for my wild experimentation of like "Design your own unit and do that for an entire semester!"—Like that is one extreme, this is also an example of how, you know, students can, co-create the lesson, like on a lesson level, I'm sure having different students in the class for that lesson produce different results from, from class to class.

Lindsay Lyons: 
And that conversation was varied. And so I think for educators or leaders supporting educators to the co-construct curriculum with students, this is a great example of one point on that continuum where it is incredibly valuable. And also doesn't take like a ton of, you know, front end work of like, okay, which, what do students know already? And identifying that going in, like you got to just learn that with them through the activity and during the lesson. So I think that's a very doable thing that teachers could put into their practice for teaching geography and so powerful.

Kholood Qumei: 
I'll also just quickly add that it's also decolonizing it, right? Because you're, you're looking at geography and, and politics and histories so critically, and it is, it is anti-racist work too because you're questioning who made Mercator projection, right? Like why is Africa this size? Why is Australia here? Where is, where is, why is Europe so massive? Right. So, looking at that, identifying the biases of the creators and having students come to those conclusions is really empowering. So I'll just throw that out there too, in the spirit of what we were talking about earlier as well. So yeah.

Lindsay Lyons:
I think that's another great example. I think one of the things, we...I've been talking to educators who teach in rural areas that are predominantly filled with white students in their classes as well. Sometimes they will hear an example like that and they'll say, well, we can't do that because we have this like mono-racial, mono-cultural mono-linguistic, like, you know, experience. But I think this is a perfect example of how you would slightly adapt this and still teach exactly the principles that you're trying to get across. Right? Like looking at who created each of these maps and having that critical lens and having the lens of decolonization when we look at just things in our sphere of education is something you can absolutely do, regardless of who is in your class. I mean, you could also jump on a zoom call with another class, like Kholood's class or something, you know, to, to share ideas that maybe aren't present in your classroom. But I think that's, that's a wonderful emphasis that you just added because I think that's something everyone can do regardless of who is sitting in your classroom, whether that be your physical classroom, your digital classroom now, but, um, as we kind of move to close out of it, I'm curious, are there resources that you have come across that you find to be really helpful in thinking through this or that you would recommend instructional leaders read or, you know, things that would help them learn more about multilingual education and what they could do for students?

Kholood Qumei:
Yeah. I think that this is something where like when I was thinking also, I mean, every time I have a question I'm like, wait, and then it takes like an hour to come up with an answer. But, I have been trying...I think that's why I ended up pursuing this other graduate degree is because I wanted resources and I kept running into roadblocks. Like I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for with multilingual education, because a lot of what's out there still disadvantages them as English Language Learners. And as much as we try to celebrate them and to celebrate and honor, and, you know, empower—they're already empowered—you know, we just, they have voices, right? Like we just need to be listening more, but I kept getting, I kept hitting roadblocks. So I think that's why I pursued it.

Kholood Qumei:
I mean, I know that's why I pursued this degree in international education and development, focusing on languages, literacies, and cultures because I will admit that I was really intimidated by scholarly work. So I was like, "Oh gosh," like, "How do I, Where is my entrance into this? How do I fit? Where do I start?" But with comparative education and also linguistic anthropology, I've come across so many fantastic articles. And that's something that I would really recommend to educators interested in multilingual education is don't be afraid of the scholarly work. We know a lot as educators, right? Like researchers will come to us when conducting work. So, you know, I think, I think we, there's such a great divide between theory and practice. And I think we need to close that gap a little bit more. So a lot of the recommendations that I do have, you know, the canon of Linguistic Anthropology or, or, critical pedagogy specifically focusing on multilingual education is in scholarly work.

Kholood Qumei: 
So again, um, you know, whether it's Carol Benson or Nelson Flores over at UPenn...Nancy Hornberger, a lot of their work is phenomenal and, you know, it's something that I think we as educators can read and then, and then think about in our own practice. So that's kind of where I have been heading to get more because I...yeah, I just kept hitting roadblocks. So don't be intimidated or afraid to read it and question it as we all should because that's important and that's, that's part of, you know, why people read and write and publish and all of that.

Lindsay Lyons: 
I love that recommendation. Thank you. And I just want to kind of summarize, we've talked about so many things today. So we've talked about the mindset shift required. The multi-lingual habitus that we want to really frame our thinking around and start shifting from that problematic language of problematizing students for, for not having English fluency and seeing that strengths-based multilingual learner kind of lens. As we look at our students, we want to really do the personal work, the collective work as, as a group. I know you shared some great strategies for that. And we also want to make sure that we're at the policy level. And so teachers have representation there and multilingual people have representation there as well. Getting to know your students and really making sure that students are able to use their home language and are encouraged to use their home language as well as multiple literacies.

Lindsay Lyons: 
And so we're not just putting pen to paper, and also you gave some great examples of ways to really look at perspective and bias to decolonize the curriculum, using your geography maps unit. And, and that recommendation that we should always be looking critically at, at the theory and the scholarly work. And also maybe I took from that as well, turning to other educators and just seeing what's working well in practice and even learning from our students and families, what can be done in classes. So there's so much richness in this, in this conversation that I'm curious if you could just recommend one place to start. So one next step that an educator or a leader of educational development could take to really live in alignment with that valuing of multilingual learners. That idea of rooting our work in equity and justice, and really be the best educators that they can be to enable all students to thrive. What would that one next step be?

Kholood Qumei: 
Oh man, that's tough. But you also did a phenomenal summary. I have to, I have to tell you, the one next step and I'm going to make this next step—cause I feel like there's so much great work out there, but I want to make it, I want to make it like a language slanted next step—I think, I think it is kind of...this is so tough. But...cause it's kind of two-pronged right. I think it's questioning what we like our language use and like language practices and also better learning our students. So challenging these preconceived notions, like getting to know, doing, doing a language history. Maybe that, maybe I can say that doing a language history, learning history for ourselves and for our students, because this reminds me of like, you know, how you asked me to introduce myself and there was kind of a narrative to it.

Kholood Qumei: 
Everyone has a story and we hear so many cool stories about, you know, people's lives and, you know, maybe it's like having the story. How did they come here to America? Or, you know, where, how did you end up in this field of study, but people have language histories and language stories that are often forgotten. Like maybe it becomes, maybe it becomes like a sentence in an introduction or in, in a biography, right? Like, and I speak this and that and that, or, you know, but, but that is, it's minimizing so much when like we're talking about literacy is like, well, I know how to read and write in this, but it's...it's different from my home language or, you know, I, you know, I went, I was like, my neighbors, you know, maybe spoke this one language, like my Italian neighbors. And I always heard like this one variety. But thinking more deeply about that, I think, for ourselves and for students, because I think language is a big part of who we are and how we express ourselves. And so, not minimizing language, and thinking of it more critically, more deeply and, and just figuring out the nuances will help us in our, in our steps of, you know, embarking on this mind shift.

Lindsay Lyons: 
That's awesome. And you've been sharing so much, I think throughout the session of just things that you've been learning yourself like and been very self-reflective about that. So I think that's great just to kind of highlight we're all learning and growing constantly. And the best thing we can do is really commit to that learning and growth. And I'm just curious if there's something that you haven't shared that you're really, that you've been working on or learning more about or thinking more about lately. Is there something else that you wanted to kind of share, highlight or highlight even your own work that, you know, the research that you're doing, so that other leaders can just be aware of that and learn from you?

Kholood Qumei: 
Well now, you know, teaching in the time of coronavirus has been on my mind a lot lately, obviously, it's had its challenges, to say the least. But one thing I've been looking at and thinking about a little more deeply is about education in emergencies, and how, you know, there's so much work being done now. But not just now, but has been done for so long on refugee and IDP, which is Internally Displaced Persons, their education for various reasons, whether it's war conflict, natural disasters, you know, and whether it is something acute, something ongoing or, you know, something protracted over long periods of time, but there are people out there would have been putting in the work for decades now. And there's so much literature out there. There is a network called the Inter-Agency Network for Education in Emergencies, and they do fantastic work and have published so much, for teachers, educators, researchers.

Kholood Qumei:
And I think it's worth exploring because you know, education in emergencies is not a new thing. And it's been around for a while and, you know, the Western world has kind of been epitomized like, "Let's look up to them and see what they're doing." Right? But now I think we need to be listening to a little bit more. So, you know, challenging the dominance and the hegemony and all that. So, that's kind of, what's been on my mind and I just would maybe throw that out there. That's a cool network to check out the Inter-Agency Network for Education in Emergencies. If anyone's interested.

Lindsay Lyons: 
You can also drop a link to that in the show notes for this episode so that people can just click on it and they don't have to do a Google search. That was a mouthful. I was like, yeah, let me make sure I got that down. So I will drop a link in the show notes. And then I think just a final piece like I am constantly—I learned so much from you in this episode alone—but I am constantly learning from you. And I would hope that listeners have learned a lot from this episode as well, and are interested in continuing to learn from you. So I'm interested in, you know, where learners might connect with you or learn more about you on either social media or, you know, wherever it would be that you would direct them to do that. I think you just have so much brilliance to share and I want to make sure people are connected with that.

Kholood Qumei: 
Yeah. I am, I am a little social media-shy, but I do have a Twitter. That's my one vice. So, I can also share that with you, but it's, I guess you put twitter.com/, or I guess the handle, right. That's what we're looking for. I am not like the most social media savvy, but it's my last name and then the first three letters of my first, so it's can QumeiKho Q-U-M-E-I-K-H-O, I almost forgot how to spell my name, but yeah, if people want to follow me, I'm always up for chaps and learning, and yeah, I really look forward to, to any of that, any and all of it.

Lindsay Lyons: 
Awesome. Thank you so much Kholood. I just really appreciate you being here and taking the time because you are super busy with a full-time job and a full-time job like research and all the things that you're doing at grad school. And so I really appreciate you and I appreciate all the wisdom that you shared today. So thanks for being on the podcast.

Kholood Qumei:
Thank you so much, Lindsay. You honestly inspired me to go back to school. I...for all the listeners out there, I've never met a person like Lindsay, you dissertating while teaching full time. I just thought, "You know what, I can do this." And so, yeah, you inspire me every single day and you know, when the going gets tough, I'm like, I can do this, you know, and I think of you. So thank you for having me here and thank you. And I hope you know this, you know, I just, I wish you the best. So thank you so much, Lindsay. Thank you.

​Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you, Kholood! See this is why she is my marigold. This is amazing.

Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of visionaries of educational development until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

To be an effective leader, we need to first and foremost be great learners. Today's episode features highlights from a book from Brookfield and Preskill who are talking all about what leadership as learning really looks like. We're going to dive in with great tips for teacher leaders, school leaders, principals, superintendents. Get ready for a great solo show.

Lindsay Lyons:
Hello everyone. And welcome to this incredibly exciting conversation that I am about to have with Dr. Cherie Bridges Patrick. She and I graduated from the same Leadership and Change Ph.D. program. And I am so excited for you to hear what she has to say today. So, Cherie, do you want to just give a few words about who you are and what you do so our listeners know what you're all about.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Yes. Thank you so much, Lindsay. Yes, we had that honor. I had the honor and pleasure of going through the Ph.D. process with this amazing woman. She was moving so fast. There's still the smoke that I see from, from her, her work. Anyway, I'm a clinical social worker by training and I focus a lot on trauma. I'm also a racial justice, leadership consultant, leadership coach. And, as I said, as a psychotherapist, I work with counseling professionals and educators and organizational leaders around issues of this big concept of racial justice. I have a consulting practice called Paradox Cross-Cultural Consulting, Training and Empowerment, and that consulting practice uses the research that I did while I was in the Antioch leadership program.
Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you, Cherie. I am so curious. A lot of our listeners really like to think big and work towards truly a transformative change. And I know in our work we've talked a lot about, you know, the need to truly transform and not just make small changes to systems that are really designed to be racist and uphold white supremacy in how they enact practices. School is one of those examples. Of course, there are many across our society, but I'm curious, we both, I know have talked about Bettina Love's amazing book. And in it, she really talks about the idea of freedom dreaming, which she describes as "dreams grounded in the critique of injustice". And so I'm curious what your big dream is for the field of education or helping professions more broadly
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Part of my dream. I'm engaging in because I think my, my personal dream connects to my larger professional dream. And so my personal dream is to just live into this liberation where I can, you know just be free from the constraints of oppression of all types, right. And to really live into who I, who I can be. Right. So thinking big there and not being restricted by who people tell me I should be or who even, I think I can be, but really, you know have this space to just really imagine and live into that. So from a personal standpoint, that's, that's what I imagined, but then I take that into this, the educational leadership and leadership and then the helping professions. So social workers, counselors, educators, and to really help, those professions transform themselves by being able to get into the hard inner work of racial justice.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And there is so much that is entailed with that. So to, to work closely with leaders, to guide them through processes so that they can then have the skills to have generative conversations about race, to make a change, to see how white supremacy operates, and, and then to truly make a change to transform systems, to transform the educational system into one that really is about education and learning and liberatory learning, right? So that we, so that students of all ages of all ethnicities of all races, genders, everything can live to their fullest potential.
Lindsay Lyons:
That is an amazing dream. I love exactly how you described that. And I love as well that you're getting into some mindset shifts here too, about what is really required for us to one examine the system, really diagnose the system. And then also really dream big about what is possible with this system that might not come to mind for people who are just in it every day. And this is the way we do things. So I'm curious about the mindset shifts and what you would say is kind of a requirement for doing this work. Something that maybe doesn't come naturally to our minds when we're just in it every day, what do we need to step back and understand?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Wow, there's, there's so much there. Well, one, one of the things that I guess I would start with, with the imagination, right? To, to shift from a mindset of scarcity and complacency and fear to one of unlimited imagination, right? So when we can, when we can open ourselves up to, you know, to accept what we see as beyond possible, right. So to really open ourselves up to the imagination. So that would be one thing. And, and so I've been writing this article, on white supremacy and social work, and I was looking at vulnerability, you know, this, this concept of vulnerability, which, is defined as "open to attack". And so I used Brene Brown's work. And what she says is that vulnerability is like this doorway to the imagination, right? And so that's, that's a huge step into, shifting minds is just having the ability to be vulnerable, which means to be seen, to be seen fully right, completely and to stop hiding behind shame and all this other stuff that keeps us from, from change.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
You know, when we talk about adaptive leadership, one of the biggest reasons that leadership...of leadership failure is that we try to meet adaptive change with technical fixes, right? And so technical fixes are, are those that come naturally that have plans and policies around them. For example, a heart surgeon, right? There's a technical process that, that a heart surgeon takes when they're operating, right? It is difficult. I could never be a heart surgeon, but there are procedures. There are processes, you know, from start to finish that guide that, that surgeon through the process. On the other hand, when we're talking about racial justice, we have to obviously look at racial injustice and what all that brings. And so underneath the umbrella of racial injustice is white. Supremacy is whiteness is racism, is, is, you know, all these, all these things that cause all this confusion.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And yet we keep trying to navigate racial justice issues of racial justice with a technical fix. And so we have to begin then to look at the mind shifts that are required. So that, that, that mind shift in terms of technical versus adaptive is okay, so let's, let's not look at this as something that we know, we don't know what we're doing, because if we did, you know, we perhaps would be a little bit further along with this process. So that's one argument there. And so it just requires a complete mind shift. It requires leaders to be able to interrogate their beliefs, right. To critically examine the disconnects between what we say we value and what we actually value, what we live out in our practices and our policies and our assessments. The other, the other mind-shift...
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So there are lots of them, right? So, sorry, you shouldn't ask me this. That is, is the illusion of the broken system. I told you, I was, I was doing this article on white supremacy and, you know, it was like, we keep, we keep approaching dismantling white supremacy, we keep approaching that system as being broken. It's not broken, it's functioning as it was set up to function. And it stays in operation because there are, there are people powerful enough with enough leverage to keep it going. So, changing our minds about how we see systems, systems operate the way they were designed to operate, they operate the way they do, because people are making, you know, people, the decisions that we make on a day to day basis are actually contributing to their continuation.
Lindsay Lyons:
Amazing. There are so many things here that are just, this is such a complex problem, right? I've heard you say that so many times, there's so much complexity here. And so we have to do so many of those things interrogating our own beliefs to really tackle this challenge. And so one of the things that really resonated as you were talking for me was in the education world, how we, a lot of times just jump to PD, or like, you know, workshops, professional development sessions, where that's going to fix the problems. And we just have this one-off PD about racial justice, and now we're good and we're an anti-racist school, and the problem is fixed. And it's obviously not fixed when we do that. And so I think you're speaking to this longer work or, I've heard you call it labor, right? Laboring for racial justice. That is much more than sitting in a PD for two hours one day.
Lindsay Lyons:
And so I'm interested in kind of the work that you have been doing, the research that you've been doing that speaks to the way in which educators can build capacity to engage in that generative discourse that you mentioned. And so, is it, is it possible for you to just say a little bit about kind of one, the importance of discourse in this work and why that's really a place that we can go to, to take action, but then also what are the capacities that individuals need to have to engage generatively in dialogue about race and racism?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So I, I love it when you ask about discourse because the more I explore discourse, the more powerful it becomes. And the more, I mean, I just, I get these deeper insights about how it operates and how it's so common. So ubiquitous, so natural for us. So discourse—text, talk, images, writing—you know, so books, a social network, the news pictures, all these things are, are, are forms of discourse. And so discourse then has a symbiotic relationship, this close relationship to the thing, to the object that, that it is, is in alignment with. So, so then when we talk about race, race shapes, people, race, race creates people, race, you know, renders people invaluable race makes people superior, right? So it discourse does all these things. And so is this universal practice, right? It's a universal practice and without discourse, then we wouldn't be able to function.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Right. And so that is the power of discourse or that's that the presence of discourse, then, then as a universal, social practice, it simultaneously contributes to the development and maintenance of challenges, right? It serves as a tool to examine those challenges and it can also become the intervention to solve those problems. Right. So discourse does all this. So discourse can create good stuff too. But so in, in the context of racial justice, we're talking about the system of white supremacy, it's all about discourse, right? There are all these other things, but discourse is a huge part of it. And so since it's been created with discourse, we can use discourse, we can use the words we can use, the way the words are used. We can look underneath the words to really begin to understand how it's operating to continue racial injustice. And I kinda like, forgot your question. I got off, I got excited about talking about discourse.
Lindsay Lyons:
That was great. My next piece was just, what are the capacities for individuals to kind of have that discourse in a way that's generative?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Okay. So, in my, in my research, the title is "Navigating the silences: Discourse between social workers," I looked at how racism has been denied primarily. And I, in doing that, I had a focus group, and in that focus group of six people, including myself, we talked against racism and, and how, how social workers talk about race and racism between one another with one another. So in that focus group, um, what was surprising was the data from the focus group presented these four discourse capacities because what I ended up looking at was this, the ability of this group to come together to cohere together, to have a generative dialogue about race. And so from that focus group, rather than, you know, finding this, this other stuff I was looking for these capacities emerged. So there are four capacities, there's this positive, liberating dialogic environment.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
There is adaptability there's vulnerability, and then there is, and of course, I'm not gonna remember the other one right now, but I'll kind of, I'll get back to that. So I'll start with the generative, the generative, dialogic environment. What, what this means is that a dialogic environment is any space and, you know, we can, we can really play with it. That space can be my mind, my thoughts, right. But if we're talking about, you know, dialogue between people that space then becomes the coffee shop, that space becomes a classroom. That space becomes the day to day, conversations like at the water cooler. We're not having water cooler conversation anymore, many of us, but we are still having these conversations. So informal conversations then, are, are the dialogic spaces. So, that means that we, we have to, have the capacity to, to, allow for conversations to happen.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And, and we know already that having, conversations about race is like people are grappling with that. People, you know, just a thought in my research, the thought of race, the word, when the, when the word race was introduced, it engendered all kinds of emotional responses, particularly with, with white participants. And so we know the power and we know the energy and we know the negativity. And we know that if we can see that race is conflated with violence. And so in, when people talk about race, we just automatically jump to violence. So all these things are happening when, when we talk about talking about race, so that dialogic environment then is this space where generative conversations can happen. And, and it takes, you know, if, if for instance, it's a classroom that classroom, that facilitator, that teacher, that instructor needs to have some foundation, some grounding, some understanding of how race really operates, right.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And the ability to negotiate conversations, to negotiate the challenges, the emotional, the emotions that come up, the responses that come up so that people can, can, you know, have these conversations. I think one of the biggest things about the dialogic environment is that this notion of dignity, which is, um, this inherent value, right? It's, it's an inherent value. It comes naturally. It is mine. When I'm born, I don't get it from you. It is, it is just something that I am born with. And that the challenge with, with centering dignity is that when, when we talk about race, when we talk about any system here in the US we're talking about hierarchy, right? And so how do you, how do you value people inherently when we placed their value on what they do?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Right. So it's, it's really seeing the humanity of, of individuals, and honoring that you don't even have to like the person, but we still have to honor the fact that they are worthy of, you know, being, being treated with dignity. So that's a big piece there. So then, in essence, the dialogic spaces, that space that allows for people to make mistakes, for, for people to, you know, to encounter white fragility as, you know, what was presented in my research, but also to grapple with it, right? Not for anybody to be saved from that, but for space where people can grapple with these feelings and, and notice the emotions, noticing sensations, notice what's happening in one's body, when they're talking about it. And every time you can have a successful conversation, success doesn't mean that there's no, you know, emotion or no cursing or whatever it means that you get through.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And at the end of that conversation, people leave that conversation with their dignity intact. And there's been some progress. You've had a, you know, a joining of people together to talk about this, this crazy thing. Adaptability is, is grounded in the research of adaptive leadership. Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky. And it's really about having this flexibility. I already talked about, you know, the technical versus adaptive approach. And so it just, it takes that frame into context. It's really about understanding the structures of racism and how they, how supremacy is, you know, it's just integrated into the system. And so, having a process that allows for people, to see that. And then there's vulnerability. I talked about that earlier, and vulnerability is open to attack, as I said. So being in a space where one can be seen where everyone can be seen.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So that means that when I talk about the experience that I had, and, and someone, you know, wants to take offense, or they feel something rising up within them, one, I can say that, right, because I'm saying it, you know, in the context of trying to heal, I'm trying to change systems that people understand that they have a responsibility to themselves and to the group to check their own selves first, to check their bodies. Right? So, so that vulnerability is, is a building up of muscle to allow himself to move beyond the shame and to let themselves be seen. And, and then, finally read readiness and willingness. And actually, that's like one of the biggest ones and readiness and willingness in is really a process, an ongoing process, that, that has these two components. Willingness is like, I want to do this work.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
I know that it's going to be really hard. This is going to kick my butt. I'm going to want to run. I'm going to want to, you know, scream, I'm going to want to quit. So willingness, this speaks to that "I'm in this," right? And in, within willingness is the necessity within willingness and readiness, is this necessity to formulate a way to understand why am I doing this? Because a lot of times, you know, folks want to look good, you know, and they want to present this image of goodness and, and racial equality and racial understanding, but deep down that, you know, that doesn't always, that, that it doesn't always get seen. And, and we don't typically carry it through that way. And so, understanding that why that, why is the anchor that will ground the individual, which stuff gets bad, right.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So it has to be anchored in something. It's not because, you know, it's my job. It's because I have this commitment to myself to live into my, you know, to my liberation. Right. And so then when it's connected to that, when I get, when I get frustrated, when I get tired, I can, I can grab onto that anchor, that anchor holds me in the game. I can step away and take a break, but I always know that I'm going to come back to it. So that's a willingness and the why underneath it, the readiness is this constant state of, of, you know, it's lifelong learning, right. So it's, it's reading, it's engaging. It's, it's the labor of, you know, taking books and resources and, and then, you know, working with other people, working with a coach or a group that, holds you accountable to what you're attempting to do.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Racial justice is no joke. I mean, as you can see, you know, if you look at the social context,  it's very difficult work. And so that readiness is a constant preparedness, a constant, a process of learning. And so then in that learning, one is learning about themselves, their identity. One of the big pieces that I'm exploring is really getting to parts that need healing. Resmaa Menakem talks about racialized trauma and how that impacts just our conversations. And what we're, what we're learning about trauma is that it's not only cognitive. It is somatic. I mean it's in the body. So when we're talking about racialized trauma, well, we have to understand is that we've all been impacted by racialized trauma. So it's not just Black, Brown and Indigenous bodies, you know, that, that have been harmed.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Yes, of course, we have been harmed. However, you know, trauma is what trauma does. And so, you know, white bodies too have been impacted. And so what we're doing when we come together like that, with that trauma is responding to each other. And so when we can start to heal, when we can recognize those, those wordless stories that come up in our bodies, right, we can, again, build that capacity to sit through the discomfort, right? To know that this too shall pass. And if you, and at each time you, you, you can sit through the discomfort long enough for it to pass, right. Then you're building capacity. And so that is, that trauma is a huge part of the reading readiness and willingness. And I, and I know that I mentioned accountability, but I want to reiterate, the importance of having accountability.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And it's not accountability from a friend or somebody who's, you know, gonna let you slide it's accountability. Who's who, from someone who is committed, just as much as you are to your own growth. And so that means that person is going to challenge you, that person's going to ask questions that person's going to help you explore, and to bring insight, they're going to hold up a mirror to what you're doing so that, you can, you can see what's going on, right. Race, oftentimes because of the way it operates, because the way it operates in the discourse, there's a lot of stuff we don't see because it's so natural. And so that, that accountability person would be able to really, you know, hold up that mirror and to say, stop. Here are some things you need to look at and then help guide you through the process of knowing where to go, to get the resources that are needed.
Lindsay Lyons:
There is so much that I know you could talk for days about, and I, people who are listening to check out Cherie's research and her dissertation are publicly available. You can, you can read more about that, but there are so many things, as I was reading through your research and your thesis, just of quotes that came up in the focus groups where you really highlight these things in action, that I immediately was like, yep. I have seen that. I have been there. I have, I have felt that you know, whatever it was, it feels so tangible. And, and just for anyone listening, who is interested in just like powerful writing, Cherie is a brilliant writer. And it is so, like, you wouldn't think that reading a dissertation would be fun and I truly enjoyed reading it. I am not lying. So I do recommend people check that out.
Lindsay Lyons:
There are also four blog posts that Cherie has contributed to the Time for Teachership blog that goes in, in a little bit more depth. And I also, I wanted to speak to one thing that Cherie that you speak about that I have never heard anyone else say this is, I think something that is just really unique in helping me to understand a little bit more about me as a white woman, engaging in the labor for racial justice. And that is, you started to say it a little bit, that, that idea of two sides of the coin, that idea that I think you've said before, right? "You can't do this work for me" kind of concept like it absolutely harms white folx as well. And that's not something that we hear a lot. I just didn't know if you wanted to say anything else about that. I've heard you refer to it as "soul harm," which I, I find just amazing, um, amazingly powerful and it's an opportunity for us to shift our minds and get our minds kind of wrapped around this thing that is so complex. And so I just want to give you an opportunity to share a little more if you want.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Thank you for bringing that up, because like that is part of the foundation of understanding. And I think it is a place where white people can enter into this, the story of race, in which we are all engaged, whether we want to admit it or not. We're all complicit. Lilla Watson, an Indigenous activist, and scholar, has— she makes a statement. "If you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." And to me, that captures what, what, you know, you're, you're bringing up. Lindsay is that race doesn't—racism does not happen by itself, right? It's a system that is generated by policies, but those policies are generated by people who create the discourse, who have to, you know, to keep racism going.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And so, when we, when we situate people who are not white as the only ones who have a race, then we miss out on the harm that is done to white bodies. Because when, you know, if you look at the relationship of racism and, you know, if we get down into the traumatic part of racism, you know, to inflict pain on another body is trauma, right? So that the oppressor is traumatized, and this is not to, to let white folx off the hook. It was to recognize that we all need to heal. Right. And, and we're all in this. And so it is really important that white folx begin to look at how, how turning away from—right, I've had, you know, some white people say after, after, you know, the George Floyd incident, which was proceeded by, you know, hundreds and hundreds of other stories, you know, like, "I didn't know it was this bad."
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Well, okay. You need to ask yourself a question, right. You know, how, how, how is it that you have remained innocent, remained unknowing about these experiences? And so that, that looking away from that willful avoidance, that denial of racism has cost white people a lot. And I see it and I'm, you know, starting to explore it. I see it as this moral injury, this soul harm that allows white bodies that moves white bodies into silence. For example, in a meeting in the face of—they're watching a colleague, you know, being discriminated against, or, or talked down to, right, or excluded from a conversation you're watching people that you claim to care for, but you can turn away from that consistently. Right? And so we have to ask: What happens to one's soul when one can turn away from the big things and the everyday little things?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And I say this particularly to those who are, you know, who claim to want to fight for racial justice, right. That means you have to look at the complicity. Right. And at whose expense does your gain come from? Right. And I, you know, it leads us to, you know, maybe talk about privilege. I see it as an advantage, right? It's this, it's this illegitimate advantage. That's just given by the color of one's skin. Right? And so it's illegitimate, it's cheating. It's like, so, to, to gain that advantage, to be given that advantage at whose expense and at what cost, you know, we have to start interrogating, you know, what is the impact on me when I claim to be one who cares for this? Right? So I'm not talking about those people who aren't, you know, who, who wouldn't, who are not engaged in this, who are not making these claims.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
I'm talking to social workers who have this commitment, to educators—and I don't know what your ethical commitment is, but social workers have an ethical commitment to fighting all forms of injustice. So it's, it's really important to know that nobody escapes the harm. We are just differentially impacted. The harm to Black and Brown and Indigenous and other bodies is very clear, right? It's obvious. And then there's the invisible wounding. But there's, there's harm—the psychic harm—to white folks that just, you know, continues to contribute to the cycling through of racism.
Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you so much for elaborating on that Cherie. I just think that's something that is so unique to how you see things and what you can bring to the conversation when we're engaging in this work and maybe going to a lot of different places. And this is just something that I think is, is transformative and it's potential to internalize. And again, like you were saying to have that deep, why so that deep, why is rooted, you know, for me as a white woman in living out my values right. And not, and not really, not contributing to the problem, but also not going against in those tiny moments, right. That may seem easy to turn away what I'm purporting to value. And so I appreciate that you explained it in that way and gave those examples that I think a lot of listeners can relate to as being in that situation on, on one end or another.
Lindsay Lyons:
I want to talk a little bit about the aspect of denial that you brought up too when you were talking about that. And I know that's a big piece of your writing and the things that you, um, are exploring right now in your scholarship. And so of course, you brought up earlier, Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky and talking about, you know, that requirement to tackle an adaptive challenge, requiring the changes in people's priorities, beliefs, habits, their loyalties, and this is, of course, challenging for people. And I'm interested in kind of those related ideas of denial in the discourse, and also the related notion, I think of seeing resistance as a loss. And so these ideas of denial and resistance as loss are, I know things you've been writing on. Do you mind saying a little bit about those concepts, and why it's important for us to understand these concepts if we're going to be doing this work?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Oh, wow. Okay. So this, this notion of denial, you know, Ibram Kendi talks about, you know, denial is at the heart of racism. And I talk about, discourse is at the heart of racism. So you've got these two things that are working together. And so that denial really is the ways in which we have just turned away from this reality of race and racism. But also it gets really convoluted because when, when we understand, um, this, this construction of race, right, Menakem talks about it being a construct, a social with teeth, right? It's a fabrication. I still, all this stuff around race is being, is being done is being lived out. It is a real experience based on a false notion, just baffling. All right. So then in terms of denial, there are just hundreds of ways in which we deny racism, don’t go against racism.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And my research spoke specifically to how we deny access to conversations of race, or we actually just deny that racism is a problem in a variety of ways. And so there were three denial discourses that came out of my research, you know, one was this notion of comfort and discomfort for white people. Another was fear and danger, and then the other was to silence. Right. And so, you know, the silence operates, you know, in meetings and team meetings, when, you know, when you have a client, we don't even talk about race right. In our, in our team meetings, for example, or if we do, we keep it at this demographic safe level, right. So then we would come colorblind to the impact of race and racism. So, um, you know, just, just negating bringing it up at all or staying in that safe zone of demographically, you know, describing it.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So that was one example of the discourse of silence, which is a form of denial. Right? So then there are these, these other discourses that emerged this notion of comfort white comfort, right. And it's grounded in silence is grounded in safety. It's grounded in the image, right? So white people do not like to be called racist. That's like the worst, one of the worst things, you know, that, that a white person would be called. Except I think that you know, we, again, conflated race with violence. And so then when you talk about being a racist, you know, one seems you see that as being called this violent, you know, white nationalists or a member of the KKK. And that's not the case. My research looked at how racism is continued as reproduced is, is maintained without intent, right.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And that's the power of discourse. So the notion of remaining and comfort was, was huge, and it was yet another way to deny conversations about race. I had a supervisor say that you know, I don't bring up race in group sessions because it's more comfortable for me to, you know, talk about race one-on-one with people, right? So the white supervisor determining that for, for him, it was more convenient, more comfortable. He said, for, for me to talk about race one-on-one. So then what happens to all the clients? What happens to all the other employees that need to, the other team members who need to hear that story of, you know, that, that issue around race. So there's a lot of things that happen. So at that moment, the opportunity access to have a conversation was denied, and then there's this fear and this, this discourse of fear and danger.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And I, and I, you know, just talked about how race is conflated with violence. And that's really what that was about. You had white folx who were not able to, or did not provide evidence of the harm that they feared, right? So it was this perception of fear because of the ways that, you know, race and racism operate. So these, these, this fear unsubstantiated, where Black and biracial participants talked about the harm that actually comes to them. Right. And so, and it comes to them, the fear is that if I say something, you know, the whole team is going to discount me, you know, as a, as a good member of the team, because I make them uncomfortable. Right. So imagine that if I, if I bring up race, I'm going to be discounted. I'm going to be, you know, excluded from, from, groups or conversations.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And so that, that fear is grounded for, for Black and biracial social workers were grounded in the agency, right. Being able to, you know, to hold a job, hold a profession and maintain, you know, some, some integrity and some, some, professional standing on the job. Right. So you have these two different stories, one that's perceived, you know, as a threat. And then there's this real threat, and they collide, right? So, that's, that's denial. I also did a deeper exploration of denial and how it, operates socio-cognitively. And, so I looked at discourse structures of three social workers and, one of them, and I won't go into it too much, but it's, it's, it's fascinating because it was this conversation, with a social worker who was a leader in her organization and white, a young leader, who, you know, just talked about how she had, she had, had become aware of how racism operated and she had been taught to be colorblind.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So she was really struggling because this is part of, a part of the harm that happens to white people. It was this, you know, this, this realization of, "Oh my goodness, things are really bad. And where have I been? I've been taught this way." So she was struggling with the fact that she'd been taught, colorblindness, and taught. Everybody, loves everybody and everybody's equal, but now it's becoming very obvious that that's not true. So she's grappling with her own identity and her own issues of how she's been raised and how her, she's been socialized to think a certain way about race and about herself. And she's also recognizing and making statements about how she's seeing racism operate in her organization. She uses an example of, Hey, um, you know, I was, I was this young person that came in and I worked in an office of predominantly, it was a predominantly African-American office, right.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So I came in as a leader and I watched myself be promoted over, over these Black colleagues. And "I knew they were more qualified than me" is what she said. I knew they were more qualified than me and I got promoted anyway. And she took the job anyway. Right. And so she's grappling with that guilt in that, like, I don't, what's happening here. So it's like, this is really confronting her. So in the conversation, you know, she's telling me all this, and then she recognizes she's "Oh, wow. You know, it just occurs to me that as I'm telling you this, I'm calling my company racist." Right. And she's like, "No, they're not racist," after she just explained that all this racism was going on in her life. They're not racist. No, they're ignorant.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
They just don't know what to do. They're trying, you know, all these different excuses. And it was like, you know, I had to read it several times to really understand how deeply the wounds of racism go and how it shapes us to, you know, to just want to turn away from what's really happening. And so she was like, no, they are not racist. Right. It was, it was everything else except, and I never called, I never said they were racist. It was her recognition. And so I said, well, you know, that you have to recognize that we're, you know, we're in the system that, you know, we can't escape. It, it seems like, Nope, they're not. I saw I had to end, I had in that conversation and or at that part of the interview to go onto something else, but that denial and that, in that sense was just so fascinating to watch because here's this admittance of I'm watching it happen.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
I'm watching racism happen in my organization. I am participating in this. And then it was this shift too, no, we can't be. And so these are the things that, that are part of the inner work of, of racial justice, right. And these are the things that people have to grapple with, and it ain't fun. Right. It is very painful. As you can tell in her name, I identified her as Dawn, you know, Dawn, was she just throughout the interview, just grappled with this, you know, this, this difference in who she thought she was and who she really was. So that's it, that's it for denial and this, the notion of resistance as a loss. As I said, Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky, talk about that. And you know, it hit me. And as I was reading through like all the resistance that we see when we bring up race, you know, if we conceptualize it and I'm not saying this is the only thing, but if we can conceptualize it as loss, it can be of identity.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Right. I no longer have a superior identity. Right. And so that's a big one, you know, that's something that has, you know, has built up over, you know, hundreds of years. And so this identity of superiority that is attached to white skin, people have to grapple with it. So we introduce, you know, you know, talking about transformation around, you know, around, changing systems, to be racially just, that's a big thing to have to grapple with. And so it's a loss it's like, who am I going to be if I don't have that identity is one. Power, position...It just...Loss creates all these things that we have to grapple with. And so when people, when people are confronted with that, they often resist, right. And so rather than seeing it as resistance, if we reframe it, if we just turn the page just a little bit, and see it as loss, then as leaders, we're responsible to help people navigate through that loss, it's still, you know, it still is resistance, right. But to help them grapple with it so that they can pass through that resistance and that loss, so that, change and transformation can really occur.
Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you so much for explaining all of that to us. There are so many things that we have covered in this podcast episode. I just want to kind of recap some of the things that I heard and then Cherie, feel free to jump in and clarify, or let me know if I got any of them wrong, and then we'll move to kind of, you know, what can people do moving forward. And so here are the things that, that I think are important for listeners to kind of remember a little highlight reel here. One, the importance of just opening up our imaginations and that vulnerability is, as you said, a doorway to that imagination, right? Pulling from the work of Brene Brown, their right to be seen fully and enable us to really think big. Another piece, right? Adaptive versus technical challenges, technical fixes, those PDs, those one-time workshops are not going to cut it when we're talking about a longstanding entrenched problem.
Lindsay Lyons:
And so it really needs to be adaptive work. We need to interrogate those beliefs. We need to recognize the disconnects between our values and actions and our in terms of school leadership, our policies, right in our practices of pedagogy. We also need to see the system as operating the way it was designed. It is not a broken system. We need to recognize and call out the ways in which it is operating in a racist way so that we can dismantle it. The primacy of discourse, I think, is one of the hallmarks of your work, Cherie. And I think that's a huge piece, right? Discourse, as you said, contributes to the problem, it's a tool for examining the problem. And it's also a way that we do the work or the labor we name and dismantle through the discourse that we have with colleagues, with students.
Lindsay Lyons:
And so in educational spaces, this is a huge tool. A lot of times we talk about, you know, do we have a critical dialogue with students and, and things like this, and this, this really feeds into the work that schools might be doing around discourse in classrooms but really highlighting that. This is also a way to talk about identify and go against racism at work in those systems. I think that's a unique perspective, you know, in terms of looking at schools and schooling and how we talk about talking with students. Another piece of that too, when we look at those four capacities, we've got the liberating dialogic environment where the facilitator. So if we're thinking about a group of, students and a teacher facilitating a class, I'm envisioning, that teacher being the facilitator and really having to build up their own capacity and understanding of how race operates, but also really knowing how to center dignity.
Lindsay Lyons:
And so Cherie and I have actually put together a free resource that I will link to this episode where it summarizes the 10 elements of dignity from Donna Hicks's book. And then it also gives a poster for teachers who want to use it either it's a digital poster. So in a virtual space or a physical classroom space, if you want to print it out, but, but that helps educators really feel out how they might do that or how they might position those elements of dignity as maybe class agreements, and, and put it out for conversation among students. The other capacities for the discourse of readiness and willingness, of course, connecting that, as you said, to have deep why, and you're really adherence to lifelong learning your commitment to be a learner and learning with accountability as a really important caveat there and to be vulnerable and, that adaptability capacity as well, is really critical.
Lindsay Lyons:
Another key feature I think of your work is that we are all harmed by white supremacy and racism. There's that soul harm, right? What does it do to the souls of the folx who turn away? I think that's a powerful way to look at this and I encourage listeners to really think about that and, what that means for our engagement in this labor and finally the denial. So I think for, for listeners listening, probably recognizing where that denial comes up in themselves and others, how it manifests as silence, how it is a manifestation of comfort or discomfort or fear. And then also for leaders reframing, as you said, resistance as real loss, the loss of identities, superiority, power position. There are so many things here that you said that is so brilliant, and I just want to make sure everybody captured them as they were listening. I know sometimes people listen to podcasts and multitask, so I want to make sure that they got all those things. I want to first ask, is there anything you would add or clarify to that? And then the second kind of question, what is one thing from that long list of things to remember and take away that someone, a listener who's listening right now could just do tomorrow, somewhere they could really begin and get started.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So, so Lindsay, I had to take a deep breath as you were re recapping all this stuff like, Oh, snap, that's a whole lot. And, and I, I think you've done an excellent job of summarizing them, so thank you for that. I, so, you know, when people ask, like, what do they do? What can we do? I'm like, Oh my goodness, you should never ask me that question because I am going to challenge listeners to, to just take three minutes a day, try it for a week, three minutes a day to, to give intentional focus, to observe themselves from a distance as a third party, observe their discourse, observe their interactions, observe their body language. It can be by themselves, their thoughts, or it can be like, in workspaces or, you know, in work environments, we're doing a lot of zoom work.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
So tend to notice what is happening, you know, as you, as you go through your day to day, the practice of just living, right? And so to take three minutes and give intense focus, notice all those things, and don't judge them, just notice them because those things will begin to tell you more about yourself. Then you might be wanting to learn. I've been doing this practice myself and I am I'm, you know, I have to admit, have been a couple of times appalled at like some of my thoughts, like, "Oh my gosh, I really thought that ugly thought." Right? And so it's to really, to, to examine what is happening in our minds and our bodies, right? And it doesn't matter if it's about race, it could be about anything, but just to learn about ourselves so that we can, you know, begin to address race.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Now, for those of you that are really brave, make it about race, focus on, on what's happening. You know, when you, when you are watching a TV program and you see that Black body, that white body comes across a screen or whatever, just pay attention and notice what's going on. I promise you, if you do this, you will see some things that then will allow you to begin to become more vulnerable, right? To, to give the things to yourself that you might not be getting right. Vulnerability is also about being true to oneself, right. And to be able to honor oneself. And so just exploring those things that happened to us on a day-to-day basis for three minutes, that's how much it will cost you as three minutes. Right? So you don't have to go out and get a book. You can buy a book if you want to. But this year, you don't even have to wait till tomorrow. You can do it right now.
Lindsay Lyons:
I love that Cherie. Thank you so much for sharing that. And as we move to close, I'm just thinking about you, you're working on so many things all the time. I'm wondering if there's something you didn't mention that you're, you're working on currently, or, um, you know, you could even be a book you're reading or something that has been on your mind lately, um, that you wanted to share with folx, anything that's been at front of mind for you.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Okay. There's some, my, my brain is, like you said, I'm doing a lot of different things. So my brain is scattered all over the place. But in terms of, you know, what's on my mind, obviously I talked about this article for white supremacy or not for white supremacy, but white supremacy and social work and dismantling it. There is a book and I think you mentioned it the other day that I cannot seem to find.
Lindsay Lyons:
Is it Caste by Isabelle Wilkerson?
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Yes. I have heard from multiple resources that that is a powerful, powerful book. I have not yet begun to engage in it. But I would highly recommend as I will do myself, that people, read that Resmaa Menakem's work on racialized trauma is a must. And because there are some offerings of resources in there that can help people navigate through these somatic responses that we have. Ibram Kendi's work, um, adaptive leadership, James Baldwin, I could go on forever, and ever there are tons of podcasts. And there's, there are tons of resources available. What I would say I would add a caveat to that is that not all racial justice-related resources are equal. If we understand the sinister, nature of white supremacy is that it operates to reproduce itself. Right? And so, this is why I find discourse so fascinating, so useful is that you know, because white supremacy, operates to reproduce itself, we'll find it in, in, you know, resources that are meant, you know, started to, you know, to be inclusive, to, to create inclusive environments or to, you know, to focus on diversity, and equity issue, issues.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
And so, perhaps talking to people who are really knowledgeable about race and racism, you know, reading a book is good. But I tell you, after, after studying this for several years, I still know very little about how race and racism operate. It is so sinister. White supremacy is so sinister. And so t0, you know, to know that there are, there are programs out there that are designed right to reproduce, right? Not necessarily intentionally, perhaps they are intentional, but at the end of the day, if we keep doing what we always did, we're always gonna give, always got it's time to change. It's time to really jump out there and be creative and imaginative. And you know, and, and it takes some risk. It's really, it's really risky, but it's, it's, I promise it's worth it.
Lindsay Lyons:
Thank you so much, Cherie, before we finally close, I'm wondering if you want to share where listeners can learn more about you or connect with you, either a website, social media platforms, wherever you would like to direct people to go to engage further.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Thank you for saying that Lindsay, you can go to my website, www.socialchangecoaching.com. And that has a lot of information on the kind of work that I do. There's a link to my research there, so you can see that and you can connect from there. And there are also a few blogs that I've written that are available on that site. So thanks Lindsay for that reminder,
Lindsay Lyons:
Of course. Excellent. And I will also link in the show notes to all those great books that you recommended as well, just so people can easily find those and don't have to rewind the podcast and, and listen to what we were saying as we were talking. So thank you so much, Cherie, you have shared so much with us today and I totally appreciate your time and your genius and your brilliance. And, and thank you so much.
Cherie Bridges Patrick:
Thank you for this opportunity, Lindsay. It is awesome to be with you. It's awesome to work with you.

Lindsay Lyons:
Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it. To continue the conversation, you can head over to our Time for Teachership Facebook group and join our community of educational visionaries until next time leaders continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

If you're wondering, how do I support my teachers during the time of COVID when professional development needs are all over the place, this is the episode for you tune into this solo show with just myself, walking you through the ideas of how we're going to personalize PD for our teachers, just like we would personalize the learning for our students.

Today we will discuss why we ought to share our leadership journey with others, its benefits, and how-to make it happen. Simply put, it is a way to claim your position by narrating professional chronicles.


In my first post on the Time for Teachership blog, I shared the definition of teachership. It is "the quality that emerges when exceptional teaching is interwoven with exceptional leading," (Steinbacher-Reed & Rotella, Jr., 2015)​. Teachership encourages shared leadership. It asks school leaders to build capacity for teacher leadership and it invites administrators to reconnect with students and instructional practice. When teachership thrives, school stakeholders co-create plans and policies. It’s a powerful model, and it becomes exponentially more valuable when teachers and leaders share what they are doing and learning with teachers and leaders in other schools.


What’s the benefit of sharing your leadership story?
There are many. First, you help other leaders envision what could be possible. Depending on what and how you share your work, you may even provide a plan for making similar things happen in other schools. I also like to share what I have tried and learned because it helps me take the time to reflect. Synthesizing my own experience has unearthed many key insights I would not have if I had not sat down to write a blog or create instructional content.


Sharing can take many forms. One of these forms is collaborating with other schools and districts to form networks of transformative learning. Teachers and principals (and students and families) can visit other schools to get ideas for transforming systems in their own schools and provide feedback on a focus area determined by the host school. Stakeholders can debrief, asking questions of host leaders, teachers, students, and families. (These can still happen at a distance with some logistical adaptation.) Finally, it builds your professional presence and authority. This is helpful if you want to share your leadership story to wider audiences. Having a professional presence can help you become a guest on popular educational podcasts or blogs. When more people hear your message, not only can educators learn from you, it also expands your network, opening up more opportunities for collaboration with other schools, districts, and organizations.


How can I share my work and my learning?
There are many ways to share your work and what you have been learning! When you choose a preferred sharing style, consider what you have the time and energy to do. Choose something realistic that won’t take over your life (unless you’re planning to move into the consulting space full-time) and also choose something that is energizing and fun for you to do.


Blog
There are a few different ways to blog. You can start your own blog for the storytelling of your leadership journey. I use Weebly because I started my first teacher blog on Weebly about a decade ago. If you would prefer to guest post once in a while, reach out to some of the blogs you regularly read and propose a topic you want to write about. Make sure the proposal states how it would serve the blog’s purpose and audience. Another option is to use an existing platform to blog. LinkedIn is a great example. It has a built-in blogging option that is simple to use and likely to reach other professionals in the field.


Start a Podcast
I have heard the people who listen to podcasts characterized as passionate about learning. They will be most engaged with your leadership story. So, these are the folks you want to connect with! I am following my own advice here. This is actually the last “blog” post I’ll write for Time for Teachership because I am transitioning to podcasting. My weekly “blog” post will become more of a transcript or summary of the episode with relevant links.


Develop an Email List
Marketing experts like Jenna Kutcher always emphasize the importance of having an email list as an entrepreneur. This can apply to full-time school employees too. If you are trying to connect regularly with other educators and leaders, an email list is a great option. While some people (like me, actually, rarely read my emails and prefer to check in with educational leaders on their weekly podcasts), sending an email to your list is one of the best ways to make sure your community sees your message. On social media platforms, only a small fraction of people who follow you actually see the things you post. An email helps you get your message to those who have said they want to hear from you and pay heed to your leadership story. My recommendation is to make sure you provide value in each email, so your community knows you are not about needlessly taking up space in their inbox.


Join or Create a Private Facebook Group
If the folks you want to connect with are on Facebook, you can join a group they are already in or you can create your own private group if one doesn’t already exist. You can use the group to search questions and challenges educators are facing and encourage members to share ideas and collaboratively problem-solve. In your private group (or on your page), you can hold a monthly or weekly Facebook Live to share what you have been doing/learning and avail the opportunity to inspire others with your leadership journey.


Create a Workshop or a Course
You could host a live workshop on Zoom where you share what you have done and learned and facilitate the conversation around a narrow topic. Alternatively, you could create a self-paced online course. Make a curriculum out of your leadership journey by the lessons it taught you. Courses prioritize transformation and they are designed for people who are willing to put in the work to accomplish a dream. Self-paced courses provide more flexibility for you because you do not need to align schedules with interested participants and find the time in your schedule to facilitate live events. Participants can take the course at their own pace (just like self-paced student learning!)


Join a Mastermind or Sign Up for Group Coaching
Masterminds like the one hosted by Daniel Bauer from one of my favorite podcasts, Better Leaders Better School, are great opportunities to collaborate with other leaders. For more focused support, I facilitate group coaching for three to eight leaders from different schools and districts to engage in the group coaching around systematizing shared leadership and using adaptive leadership practices to advance racial and gender justice. These coaching calls are one hour a week. To learn more about group leadership coaching, leaders can schedule a 20-minute consultation call.
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Whether you are building up your professional presence as a way to connect and collaborate with other educators or starting an online course business to make some extra cash, I’ve pulled together a list of tools for you to get started. This free resource is a compilation of the tools I’ve used to share my leadership journey and bring dedicated educators, excited about transforming our education system, together to inspire and support one another as a community.

Just like we want to identify the underlying needs of students before deciding how to respond to student behavior, we want to do the same for the system. Before we rush to action to solve an identified problem, we need to truly diagnose the challenge. To inform our diagnostic process, let’s use some of the core concepts from The Practice of Adaptive Leadership: Tools and Tactics for Changing Your Organization and the World by Heifetz, Linksy, & Grashow. Adaptive leadership is specific to adaptive challenges, the ones that cannot be solved with a quick fix.

How do I know my school is dealing with an adaptive challenge?
Heifetz and colleagues contrast adaptive challenges with technical challenges. Whereas a technical challenge can be addressed by sharing new information, perhaps holding a Professional Development session for all staff, adaptive challenges require much deeper work.

One indicator of an adaptive challenge in schools is repeated failure. All the PD you have thrown at the problem is not working. Another indicator is looking to the leader (e.g., principal or superintendent) to solve the problem. When the same person(s) has been trying to solve the problem without success, it is time to bring in other stakeholders.

Another indicator you are dealing with an issue that goes deep is when you see “disproportionate reactions to proposals”. For example, if asking a teacher to attend a staff meeting about racism leads to that teacher yelling or crying, there is something deeper going on.

The essence of adaptive challenges can be captured in this sentence of Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky’s book: “Adaptive challenges are typically grounded in the complexity of values, beliefs, and loyalties rather than technical complexity and stir up intense emotions rather than dispassionate analysis,” (Loc. 1283).

How might adaptive challenges show up in my school?
The authors identify four main types of adaptive challenges that often overlap with one another. See if you can identify any of these within your school and need adaptive leadership.
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• Our actions do not line up with what we say we value. In the context of racial justice work, this can take the form of white liberalism. This might look like “celebrating diversity” but not interrogating school policies or practices to root out structural racism. It might be tone policing passionate responses to injustice, conflating the absence of tension with justice. To address this type of adaptive challenge, take stock of how teachers, students, and administrators spend their time. Look at what metrics the school uses to judge teacher, student, and organizational success. Do these practices align with the school’s stated values? We can ask why more has not been done to advance the necessary change.
• We hold competing commitments. To address long-standing adaptive challenges in schools, we may need to forgo allegiance to a long-standing commitment that has inhibited real change. The first step here is to identify those competing commitments. Bring them to light. Choosing to prioritize a commitment to racial justice over high test scores will certainly disrupt the status quo. It will probably cause increased tension, but in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., “True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." Furthermore, until we address adaptive challenges like racism in our schools, we can’t raise test scores for all students, and if we can, we must return to archetype #1 and ask: Does the pursuit of high test scores force us to sacrifice living out our values?
• There are things that must not be named. If we cannot speak about the real issues happening in our schools and the real feelings and impacts that accompany those issues, we cannot address the issue itself. Dr. Cherie Bridges Patrick has written about the necessity of a liberating dialogic environment in racial justice work, and this is true for all adaptive challenges. To diagnose what is really going on beneath the surface, we need to be able to say it out loud. This is tough work, so Heifetz and colleagues suggest having individual stakeholders journal during a meeting: What were you thinking during the meeting vs. what did you actually say? The differences between each category may help identify what is “unspeakable.”
• It’s easier to avoid the subject. Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky say this shows up in two ways. The first is “diversion of attention.” They say this could look like changing the subject, making a joke, denying the problem exists, making it personal to deflect from the real issue, discounting solutions because it’s not how we do things here, or only focusing on technical fixes (e.g., “Let’s do a Professional Development workshop”). Another form of avoidance is “displacement of responsibility.” They say this could be creating a scapegoat, externalizing the problem to something we cannot control, or hiring a consultant to fix the problem without putting in the work and applying adaptive leadership. To address avoidance, you might challenge teachers and administrators to identify avoidance behaviors as they come up in meetings or conduct interviews with various stakeholders to get a deeper understanding of what’s going on (e.g., What are the fears or competing values that lead us to avoidance?)

My school has an adaptive challenge we need to tackle. What can I do about it?
Set up structures of shared leadership. The first step is recognizing you cannot do this work alone. Shared leadership structures are powerful because they are not temporary solutions. They are not ad-hoc committees, separate from the rest of the organization. Shared leadership is the heartbeat of the organization. It is how all decisions are made.

Shared leadership is more about the how than the what. By setting up ongoing mechanisms for all stakeholder voices, shared leadership systematizes the process of diagnosis for adaptive challenges. You do not need to start from scratch each time you need to collect data or stakeholder experiences on one specific topic. The system will already exist.

Furthermore, shared leadership as a form of governance is preventative rather than reactive. Much of the conversation in education is about fixing problems or policies that already exist. Certainly, this is important and necessary work. However, in improving our decision-making and policy creation processes, we can reduce our future needs to react to poor decisions and policies because we are more likely to get it right the first time. For more details on how to set up the structures of shared leadership, read this blog post.

Each stakeholder is going to approach the situation with a unique set of values, loyalties, fears, and desired outcomes. To effectively engage stakeholders in the work of tackling an adaptive challenge, leaders must “diagnose the political landscape.” To do this, we can ask each stakeholder (or ask representatives of stakeholder groups as long as the system of representation is effective):

• How are you affected by the challenge and/or proposed solution?
• What are your desired outcomes?
• What are your core values (and how do they come to bear on this challenge)?
• What are your loyalties? (to your stakeholder group, but also hidden loyalties you may not realize you have—e.g., maintaining white comfortability or white silence)
• What are you afraid of losing? (e.g., comfort, time, control, status, independence, life)

Once you have gathered all of this information, you may want to identify common points of connection across stakeholder groups. Heifetz and colleagues call these “hidden alliances” as groups who may initially seem in opposition to one another’s proposed solutions may have a shared value or desired outcome that when illuminated can help them work together.

To help you get started on the process of diagnosis, I’ve made a mini workbook for you with activities and guiding questions.

This year, paying attention to students’ social and emotional needs is more important than ever. There are a lot of SEL sites and strategies to support educators in doing this work. BetterLesson’s bank of SEL strategies is a great resource for teachers looking to explore new practices.

Let’s say you implement a bunch of SEL strategies, but you still have a student say or do something that harms another person in the class. Keeping the importance of students’ social and emotional health in mind, we want to respond in a way that restores the harm done.

Restorative conversations helped me address the harm done in my class far more effectively than consequence charts or punitive measures. It also helped me empathize more with students—the students harmed the students who harmed someone else, and also students who I may have harmed.
That is the beauty of restorative conversations—and the most important part of doing it well, in a way that is anti-oppressive—they can be used with everyone, adults included.

What are restorative conversations?
Once a class/school community is built (and it has to be built first), restorative conversations enable us to repair the harm done to a member of the community. They are opportunities to unpack each student’s understanding of what happened, how they felt, and their suggestions for repairing the harm. The origins of restorative conversations come from Indigenous nations in what is currently known as the “Americas” and the South Pacific.

What are the benefits of using restorative practices in schools?
The restorative approach center on the dignity and humanity of each participant. It promotes listening and empathy followed by accountability and action. Research has demonstrated restorative conversations contribute to improved attendance and aspects of school climate such as safety and connectedness. They also advance racial, gender, disability, and economic equity, as exclusionary discipline rates (e.g., suspensions that take students out of their classes), are significantly reduced among Black, low-income, female, and special needs students when restorative practices are employed (West Ed, 2019).      

How are restorative conversations facilitated?
Participants include the facilitator, the person(s) who caused harm, the person(s) who experienced harm, and each person involved can choose to invite an adult or young person to attend for moral support. The facilitator (an adult or a student that has been trained in restorative conversation facilitation) will ask a series of questions, one at a time. Each participant in the conversation will have an uninterrupted opportunity to respond to each question, speaking from the “I”. I use a talking piece to remind participants not to speak when someone else is speaking. (An adaptation for virtual conversations could be to stay muted until it is your turn to talk.)

The following questions form a basic outline of a restorative conversation:

• What happened?
• How did you feel? (Or, what did you need that you weren’t able to get?)
• Who was affected?
• How can the harm be repaired? (For the person who caused the harm: What can you do to repair the harm?)     

Several resources exist for educators to see more nuanced lists of questions to ask in restorative conversations. (For example, see this Teaching Tolerance resource or these Restorative Resources cards.)

A final note for this section: Schools have different rules about the types of harm that should be addressed with restorative practices. Most schools specify that incidents involving violence are not handled with restorative conversations. Instead, students may engage in a re-entry circle or restorative conversation upon re-entering the community.   
 
Why is it important to identify feelings and unmet needs through restorative practices?
This, to me, is the heart of the practice. The opportunity to listen to someone else describe how they were feeling in the moment or what need they had that wasn’t able to be met humanizes the person(s) who caused harm and enables that person to experience empathy for the person(s) they harmed.

Even as a facilitator, many of these conversations have resulted in a much deeper understanding of my students’ experiences and a recognition of what I might be able to do to meet students’ needs or to support students to identify and address intense emotions in a healthy way.

These conversations also helped me and my students in our immediate responses to disruptive or harmful actions. The more we practiced listening and identifying unmet needs in ourselves and others, we were more likely to respond to disruptive behavior with questions like “What do you need?” rather than reprimands.   

Practicing with Students
It does not require students to harm or be harmed to engage in restorative conversations. Talking about unmet needs can be a lesson on its own. Every person can identify a time in their lives when they had an unmet need, so asking students to think about their own experiences and name the unmet need can be a powerful way to practice.

For activities in which students are thinking about their own stories, you could invite them to share with a partner if they wanted or write to themselves or just think about it without putting it into words. I also have used book characters or historical actors or sample SEL stories to invite students to identify the character’s unmet needs.

There are also a variety of sample lessons out there like this one from Teaching Tolerance that can help introduce the idea of restorative conferences to students.

What if students struggle to identify unmet needs & restorative approach tumbles?
As an adult, I still struggle with identifying what my underlying unmet needs are when I have an intense emotional response to a situation. Of course, students will likely struggle with this.
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I have adapted Glasser’s 5 unmet needs (survival, belonging, power, freedom, and fun) into an acrostic that helps me remember what the most basic unmet needs could be. I have been calling them BASE needs: Belonging, Autonomy (encompassing power and freedom), Survival, and Enjoyment.
I made a poster for educators to remind ourselves and share with the class to help students identify (and ask about) others’ unmet needs when (or even before) disruptive behavior occurs.

This mindset shift towards identifying unmet needs and hearing from students what emotions they were/are feeling refocused my attention from assigning a consequence of tackling the root cause of the problem. This also helped me as an individual bring more self-awareness to my emotions and unmet needs and improved my relationships with students, colleagues, friends, and family.

As we pay increasing attention to all of our social and emotional needs this school year, let’s remind ourselves of the power of asking: “What does this person need?” These are what restorative practices are in their essence.

In the past two weeks, I have read Layla Saad’s White Supremacy and Me and Tim Ferriss’s The Four-Hour Workweek. These are very different books, but they both ask readers to dig into deeply held beliefs and uproot them to make a powerful shift. As I think about the lasting impact of these books and what about each one has caused me to make real change, it is these two components: identifying and unlearning long-held beliefs and taking three next steps.


In White Supremacy and Me, Layla Saad has readers end the book by writing “three concrete, out-of-your-comfort-zone actions” you will take in the next two weeks. In The Four-Hour Workweek, Tim Ferriss has readers identify four life-changing dreams they have, and then tells readers to take three next steps over the next three days for each of the four dreams. He notes that each step should take a maximum of 5 minutes.   


I am constantly dreaming of what is possible, envisioning how things could be better. But I do not like just existing in a dream world. I then try to break these bold ideas down into concrete steps to make big changes and make what initially felt impossible, possible. Sometimes, that can come off as “This is easy to do!” which is far from the truth. My brain just goes directly to action. In a year when COVID-19 has caused a major upheaval in the lives of educators, I tend to skip right over the fact that this is incredibly difficult work to be forced to adapt instruction and while navigating the uncertainty and anxiety of ourselves, our students and families, and our colleagues.


Additionally, in doing antiracism work, it is important to sit with new understanding and seek to learn more about the complexity of the problems—not rush to action. So many of us (definitely including myself here) want to rush to action before taking the time to fully understand the complexities of what’s going on and how our response could be unintentionally harmful, possibly by just paying lip service to racial justice without enacting any real change.


That said, once we have a deeper understanding of a problem or can concretely define who we want to be or how we want to show up for our students, we will need to take action. That is when I can lean into my strength of breaking down a big goal into actionable steps to make big changes. I achieved my goal of running a marathon without stopping (after two attempts that required some walking), and I completed my Ph.D. program in three years while working full time. I did this through sheer force of will and some very specific calendars and timelines.


I have also had dreams that have remained in dream form for years. For example, becoming multilingual has always been a goal. Why haven't I been successful? My goal wasn’t specific and I didn’t make a plan. Because I never made a clear plan, I never really got started.


I often end my professional development workshops by encouraging participants to write down one next step they will take after the workshop. But, what I’ve learned from Saad and Ferriss (and my momentum towards the goals I set for myself after reading their books) is that taking one next step is not enough. There are more aspects to this “next step” thing that I did not realize missing from my workshop closing.


Set a Deadline. Saad’s deadline was two weeks. Ferriss’s deadline was three days.
I have found one week to be a helpful time frame for me to complete three steps. This has provided enough flexibility to work around the busy-ness of life and work, but also a close enough deadline that I’m less likely to forget. Whatever you choose as your deadline, make sure it is soon enough that you won’t put it off until “tomorrow,” which in my experience quickly becomes much later.


Build Momentum. The difference between one next step and three next steps to make big shifts? Momentum. I can energetically dive into a new goal on Day 1, but after that, it’s easier to fizzle out. If we commit to three steps, one after the other, we build momentum, we start to make real progress towards our goals. That momentum is critical for working towards real change.


Make The Actions Doable. Tim Ferriss says each of the first three steps should take no more than five minutes. In another book, Atomic Habits, James Clear recommends each habit takes two minutes or less. For example, if my desired habit is to practice on Duolingo every day, I can complete a lesson in two minutes and still continue my daily streak of practice. For these first few steps, aim for actions that will take 2 to 5 minutes.   


Write out your plan. I used to write down two big things I wanted to accomplish each day and focus on completing those tasks. Now, it feels more powerful to tie each of those tasks to a larger goal. So, I now frame each day’s task as: Which life-changing goal(s) am I working towards today? That fills my day with far more purpose than two random “check-the-box” tasks.     


Connect these steps to your identity. Layla Saad talks about being a “good ancestor.” Antiracism work requires us to unearth and discard white supremacist beliefs we have (often unknowingly) held. Rooting them out is difficult, emotional work, and what enables us to do that work—even when it’s hard—is to tie our identities to being antiracist or being a “good ancestor.” Atomic Habits author, James Clear talks about linking our habits to our identities as a way to ensure we follow through on our goals. He talks about conducting a yearly “Integrity Report” in which he asks: What are the core values that drive my life and work? How am I living and working with integrity right now? How can I set a higher standard in the future? He says this work helps “revisit my desired identity and consider how my habits are helping me become the type of person I wish to be.” We are more likely to continuously take action towards a goal if we see this work as critical to living out our desired identity, our best self.

In the last two weeks, I’ve facilitated several virtual workshops on culturally responsive teaching and systemic racism. These particular workshops were focused on increasing awareness of racial injustice and learning how to first identify the problems. This is an essential first step, developing our understanding of the complex ways racism has been embedded into the fabric of institutions like school. 
 
However, many of us want to know what to do. Dr. Cherie Bridges Patrick has taught me that you first need to sit with it and truly seek to understand the complexity of the problems before jumping right to action. So, recognizing we need to do that first, I’ll do my best to answer what is becoming the most common question asked of me during racial justice workshops: “Once I have an understanding of the problem, what can I do about it?”

Before diving into action steps, let’s look at a framework that may help us understand the variety of ways racism can play out in educational spaces. This framework is called the Four I’s of Oppression. (Described in detail here.) Here’s a brief summary: 
 

• Ideological Oppression: the idea of one group’s superiority;
• Interpersonal Oppression: an individual act of oppression that is backed up by institutional power (Racism = Prejudice + Power);
• Institutional Oppression: restricting access to opportunity in institutions—typically through policy created by those who have had the opportunity to hold positions of power; and
• Internalized Oppression: people who suffer consistent oppression internalize negative messages about themselves and people who benefit from these systems accept the stereotypes of oppressed groups (and internalize their privilege). 

 
When we understand the different forms oppression can take and we recognize they are all interconnected, we are better able to form a plan for action. 

In the Moment 
 
Since ideological oppression is the idea that emerges through the other three I’s, I will focus here on what we might do when we see these other I’s in our schools. 
 
Addressing interpersonal oppression. Teaching Tolerance has a “Speak Up” pocket guide (linked here) that suggests four actions you can take when you witness someone do or say something racist. The four actions are: Interrupt (say something like “That phrase is hurtful”); Question (ask “Why do you say that?” or “What do you mean?”); Educate (explain why it’s harmful); and Echo (if someone else speaks up first, back them up with a simple “Thank you for speaking up. I agree that’s offensive.”) This pocket guide was actually designed to support students in speaking up, so you can use this with students as well!  
 
Addressing institutional oppression. Initiating policy change requires a multi-step approach. Although, some of the previous suggestions could serve as an initial step. For example, if you want to bring up a problematic policy, you might plan to say something at an upcoming meeting. You might pose a question like: Is the dress code helping all students learn? Then you can ask another teacher to be your echo so you are not positioned as the only person who sees this policy as a problem. When constructing your initial message, I like the approach developed by Opportunity Agenda, an organization that helps writers effectively communicate messages about social justice issues. They suggest this formula: Values, Problem, Solution, Action.
 
Here’s what this might look like: “We’re all here because we want to help each of our students get the best educational experience possible. When students are removed from class due to dress code violations, they are losing instructional time. The latest data shows x number of students were removed from class last week for at least y minutes, and z number of students were sent home to change, missing hours of instructional time. To make sure our policies are maximizing student learning, I think we should start a committee to take a closer look at the dress code. This committee should include teachers, students, and families so that everyone who is affected by this policy has a voice in this process. 
 
It’s important to ensure our action reflects the inclusion and equity we want from the policy change. (For more on this, check out my previous post on shared leadership structures.)  
 
Addressing internalized privilege/oppression. Responding to internalized privilege and internalized oppression will require different approaches. For privileged students to recognize their privilege, you may want to introduce white privilege as a concept and highlight this is one way in which white supremacy manifests. Depending on the age of your students, the list in Peggy McIntosh’s article may be a helpful place to start. White students will also benefit from hearing stories and learning about the experiences of people of the global majority. Windows and Mirrors is a powerful approach with which to analyze your curriculum to ensure all students can have windows into stories of people who do not hold the same racial identity. This lens is also valuable for addressing internalized oppression, as Black, Brown, Indigenous, Asian, and AMEMSA (Arab, Middle Eastern, Muslim and South Asian) students need to see positive and complex representations of their racial groups in the curriculum. This Teaching Tolerance article also suggests explicitly debunking stereotypes and racialized myths, which cultivates students’ ability to be critically conscious of unjust representations of racial groups in textbooks or media. The article also distinguishes low self-esteem from internalized oppression, which is an incredibly important point. Whereas we may support a student with low self-esteem to see themselves in a more positive light, that’s not enough to address internalized oppression. We must help students recognize it for what it is: internalized oppression, stemming from ideas of white supremacy. We can help students identify how these stereotypes are perpetuated and who/what purpose these ideas serve.  
 

Systemic Shifts
 
Acting in the moment is often what we think about when we wonder how we can respond to racism in schools. It’s certainly an important capacity to build. However, changing the broader school culture, shifting the system itself, can reduce the likelihood of racism moving forward. We don’t always want to be reacting. We want to find ways to be proactive. 
 
Make time for ongoing meetings about racial justice. One way to shift the culture is to make time for conversations about race with colleagues on a regular basis. As educators, we never have enough time to get everything done, so it may be challenging to see “adding” something else as doable. But racial justice isn’t something we’re adding to our plates. We are constantly “doing race” in our daily interactions. It’s embedded into everything else we do. If we can recognize this, we will see the importance of looking at our policies and data through the lens of its racialized impact. Through these conversations, schools can develop a culture of productive dialogue about issues of race and individual educators can build their capacities to see the complexity of racial injustice, including all of the identities that intersect with race to produce unique experiences of schooling for Black girls or queer Indigenous students, or Latinx students with dis/abilities, or transgender white students. 
 
Broaden the school’s conception of data. When we think of data, as educators, we often think of standardized test scores. Perhaps report card grades. Possibly graduation rates. Rarely do we move beyond this to consider other sources of data. Individual teachers may collect qualitative data from students and families throughout the year, but this is not usually systematized. We don’t usually look at qualitative data on a school-wide basis. Broadening our ideas of what types of data are valuable requires us to be clear on what we value as a school. Looking at standardized test scores, report card grades, and graduation rates reflects the importance we place on educational outcomes. Might we also want to look at how students and families experience schooling? Could we collect survey data and hold interviews or focus groups with students and families around questions of the degree to which they feel they belong in school or their voice matters? Asking what data matters and who we should gather data from can generate powerful shifts in thinking about how schools measure “success.” 
 

As we all grow and learn from one another, I invite you to share your ideas and experiences of identifying and dismantling racism in your schools.
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Since March, I have written many blog posts on distance learning. I thought curating these previous posts and bringing them together in one space may be helpful as we enter and continue to figure out the new school year together. I’ve linked each post related to distance learning below and provided a short summary to give you a sense of what the post is about. This year is asking a lot of educators. It is incredibly hard, complex work. It is my hope these posts can offer some support as you structure your distance learning tasks and supports for students and colleagues. Explore away!   

Transitioning to Virtual Learning: Questions to Consider
This post is framed by questions to consider for each of the 4 R’s: “Room” setup, Rituals, Relevance, and Relationships. 
 
Transitioning to Virtual Learning: Tech Tool Suggestions
While most of us know how we will deliver content this year, the second section of this post—assessing student understanding synchronously and asynchronously could be helpful. I particularly like the Two-In-One tools that enable you to share content and assess for learning simultaneously. This post includes a freebie describing 5 of my favorite tech tools and how I use them.  

Update regarding Google Meet: Breakout rooms are coming in October! 

Supporting Students with IEPs in the Virtual Learning Space
Organized by Tomlinson’s 4 ways to differentiate, this post gives examples for differentiating content, process, product, and affect/environment. There’s also a choice board template freebie in this post. 
 
Supporting Students’ Mental Health During the Coronavirus Outbreak
This post addresses topics like addressing racism and xenophobia, integrating COVID-19 into your lessons, sharing mental health tips with students, and additional resources to share with students (e.g., support hotlines).  
 
How to Be Well when Teaching from Home
Following a rundown of the 6 dimensions of wellness from the National Wellness Institute, I share specific examples from my practice and a well-being tracker freebie. A version of this post was picked up and published by the National Wellness Institute in their International Journal of Community Well-Being.  
 
Digital Instructional Resources For Self-Paced Learning
I share concrete examples of how you can use instructional resources to support students’ self-paced learning. The freebie for this post is a list of online sites and programs (nearly all of which are free), organized by subject. 
 
Opportunity: Rethink Assessment & Grades
This post is the first in a mini “opportunity” series—posts that introduce the mindset shifts that can help us see beyond the challenges of the situation we have been thrust into (teaching remotely) to envision opportunities for new ways of teaching and learning. This post specifically focuses on how assessment and grades might look different in a distance learning environment. 

Opportunity: Genius Hour
Genius Hour is one way to promote student engagement during distance learning. In this post, I share the 3 big lessons I learned when doing Genius Hour in my class. The freebie is the student planning doc I used to jumpstart a semester of Genius Hour. 
 
Opportunity: What I Need (WIN) Time
Many teachers offer small group support or 1:1 meetings for students during distance learning. Just like in a physical class, you may wonder what the rest of the class is doing during this time. This post walks teachers through the basics of WIN Time to help students identify what they need to work on and ensure they have access to the tools they need to work on it. 
 
Opportunity: Student Goal Setting
Asking students to set personal goals during distance learning is brilliant. This post talks about how you can make the goal setting process truly impactful. There’s also a SMART goal template freebie. 
 
Opportunity: Personalized Pathways (Part 1)
Personalizing instruction or differentiating instruction have always been big in the education world. The need for personalized instruction has grown even more during distance learning. Pathways are one strategy educators can use to personalize instruction. This post provides an overview of pathways (i.e., what, why, and how). 
 
Opportunity: Personalized Pathways (Part 2)
This post covers the logistics of how to literally set up a pathway, including what tech tools to use and how a pathway differs from a playlist. There’s also a pathway tracker template freebie to get you started. 

Live Classes or Asynchronous Tasks: Benefits of Each  
This post summarizes the benefits of synchronous vs. asynchronous activities with the goal of helping teachers think about which activities can be done live and which can be completed during non-class time. 
 
Live Classes or Asynchronous Tasks: The Best of Both
Sometimes you don’t need to sacrifice the benefits of one form of instruction when you choose the other. This post covers how you can use particular tools (many asynchronous) and still maintain many of the benefits of the other type of instruction (often synchronous). The freebie for this post is a set of student-facing weekly plan templates to help you and your students organize what they will do each day or week
 
Live Meetings or Asynchronous Tasks: Leader Edition
The leader version of the synchronous vs. asynchronous post series, this post helps leaders think about when to hold live meetings with staff and what can be done asynchronously. It wraps up with a few final tips and a podcast recommendation. 

Scheduling Your Work Week While Working From Home
This post contains what is perhaps the most popular freebie I’ve ever created. The post itself lists 5 tips for structuring your work-from-home life. The freebie is a scheduling template set up to reflect the tips listed in the post. Within the freebie, you will also find a sample schedule to help you get started. 
 

In case you missed one of these posts the first time around, I hope this collection provides you with some inspiration to support your students during this unique school year.