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In this episode, we talk with Patty McGee, a literary consultant and author of the new book, Not Your Granny’s Grammar. Patty discusses how traditional grammar instruction can be detrimental, and emphasizes the need for a new approach that involves sentence construction, expansion, and combining as more effective methods.
She introduces the concept of viewing grammar as a tool for expression, similar to a painter's brush, allowing for different styles and making meaning on the page. The Big Dream Patty McGee dreams of an educational environment where students find themselves and become who they're meant to be by following their passions, being loved and valued for who they are. She envisions a space where writing, and grammar, can be a powerful tool for identity exploration and voice. Mindset Shifts Required To achieve this vision, educators must reframe their understanding of grammar, moving away from viewing it as a strict set of rules. Instead, they should recognize that grammar is for expression and to create meaning on the page. Grammar falls into three buckets: spoken grammar, book grammar, and standard grammar. One is not better than the other, but all work together to convey meaning and message. Another key mindset shift is to move away from immediacy of expectations, or the idea that it’s taught once on a worksheet and immediately known and implemented. It takes time. Action Steps To start shifting from traditional modes of grammar instruction, educators can follow these suggested steps: Step 1: Understand that traditional grammar instruction doesn’t work, and may have the opposite of the intended effect. Instead of focusing on the identification of parts of speech, it’s most effective to focus on teaching grammar through sentence construction, expansion, and combining. Step 2: Redesign your unit arcs to follow how people learn: first, through surface learning, then deep learning, and then transfer. This is in contrast to teaching grammar in units (e.g. learning about nouns first, then verbs). Step 3: Place students in long-term partnerships, pairing them up for the length of the unit or even the whole year. This helps students build off of conversations they’ve had before rather than mixing it up every time. Step 4: Reduce teacher talk time by posing thoughtful questions and allowing students to explore and experiment with grammar concepts. Step 5: “Pause and ponder” -- build in time for reflection, enabling students to ponder what they've learned and spark curiosity about new grammar concepts. Challenges? Educators often face challenges in feeling comfortable and knowledgeable about grammar concepts themselves. Without a strong foundation, teachers may hesitate to experiment with new instructional approaches. Seeking out resources, like the grammar guide in Patty’s book and open-ended learning opportunities, can help educators build their confidence. One Step to Get Started To begin integrating these new strategies right away, educators can start by using grammar manipulatives. By selecting sentences they enjoy and having students break them down and rearrange them, teachers can create an interactive grammar experience that is both fun and educational. This simple yet effective technique helps to engage students in learning grammar through creativity and collaboration. Stay Connected You can keep up with Patty McGee on her website. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing Master Any Content Through the Power of Grammar with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 270 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT Lindsay Lyons: Patty McGee, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Patty McGee: Ah, thank you. I'm happy to be here. Lindsay Lyons: I am really excited. And so one of the questions that I've been opening episodes with is just, like, what's on your mind today, or what should we keep in mind, uh, you know, as an audience? And what's on my mind is your book, Not Your Granny's Grammar- which is excellent, and we were just talking about this. But it is, it is truly transformational, and not at all your granny's grammar. Yes. So I'm really excited to talk about your book today. Anything on your mind that you want people to be thoughtful about, or you wanna share with folks? Patty McGee: Oh, gosh. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy that my book is on your mind, and I am thinking even more about the possibilities of grammar in other areas, and how we can reframe the way we think about it and the way that people approach it. And it's, it's something definitely, definitely on my mind. Lindsay Lyons: Well, it i- it comes through powerfully in the book, and, and we'll get to all of that. The first question, though, I wanna kinda zoom out and think about, you know, Dr. Bettina Love talks about the idea of freedom dreaming by saying their dream is grounded in the critique of injustice, which is- Patty McGee: Yes Lindsay Lyons: such a great way to think of it. And, and I'm wondering, what is that big dream that you hold for education? Patty McGee: Yes. My- Dream, I'm sorry, just, um, I've got so many and I'm trying to prioritize. Um, it's, it's really, I want it to be a place That students find themselves and become who they're meant to be by following their passions, by being loved to pieces and valued for all that they are. That's in a nutshell. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. And I, and you know, as I was reading your work, I thought about, um, Dr. Asao Aanoi's work, who was also on the podcast, and he talks about, you know, like, writing specifically as a writing professor, right? Writing is often this, this way that, you know, kids are able to express their very unique voices and, and feel valued. Particularly, I mean, his talk was around, you know, assessment of writing and stuff, and so thinking about how we do that in a way that's affirming of students. Patty McGee: Yes. Lindsay Lyons: But, like, how powerful writing as an avenue for kind of identity exploration and voice is. It... and, and being able to, like, love someone to pieces as, as a- Yeah student. You know, I- I'm thinking about all of my students who I felt even more connected with once I read their writing- Yeah ... and forms of expression, and that grammar oftentimes can be such, the way that we typically think of it, can be such a hindrance to that voice and that expression and that love. And, um, I'm, I'm just curious, is there kind of like a, a mindset shift that you think, you know, teachers, uh, anyone who's interfacing with grammar and young people, you know, we need to... used to think this, now we really need to shift over to this, and that's gonna unlock a lot of potential. Is there anything you would advise around that? Patty McGee: There are multiple things I will, again, try to prioritize. I think one of the biggest shifts, um, is going to be around what grammar is for. Grammar is for expression. Grammar is meant to create meaning on the page. Grammar is not a static set of rules. And when we think of grammar in three buckets, where we have spoken grammar, book grammar, and standard grammar, I think we start to look at grammar not as a superior goal of, let's say, the language that makes us sound intelligent, but rather one form of, of, of code switching, basically. So, like, uh, spoken grammar changes wherever you live, whatever culture, um, is yours. That is spoken grammar, and it is just as valuable as book grammar and as standard grammar. And I just think of standard grammar as the grammar standards that we are charged with teaching. And it's constantly changing. So knowing that spoken grammar and book grammar are having an influence on grammar, standard grammar, so having that type of shift of, like, grammar as style, as making meaning on the page, I often equate grammar, uh, to a painter's paintbrush, the way that a painter is expressing themselves in their art and how they use different brush strokes, uh, to create what they're envisioning. And grammar is the same type of tool for writers, and it can really be something, um, that empowers voices. Like you were saying, we discover more about our students when we read their writing. I also think a mind shift that is necessary is that we move from this immediacy of expectations. Like, often we have, uh, the expectation that, okay, we did this worksheet, now we're all supposed to know it and use it. And so if you wouldn't mind, I have a great quote from Jeff Anderson that I'd love to read. Uh, he says, "What about experimentation, play, approximation? Grammar and mechanics shape meaning, and as in all language endeavors, we must make mistakes to move toward correctness. Where's the bridge between getting started and stretching with grammar and mechanics and being wrong?" Lindsay Lyons: That's so good. Yes. Oh my gosh, I love the artistry that you- Mm-hmm I mean, I s- I see and have read the language of the artist throughout your book as well. Patty McGee: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: And I love this analogy because I think a lot of times we think about art as y- fine arts, painting, drawing, whatever, and we don't always include writing in that. And it- Mm-hmm ... uh, I mean, maybe we include poetry. We don't usually include much more than that, if that at all, and it's so beautiful that this is just distinctly including Yeah ... all of the writing in the art world. And so I, I love that. I'm curious if we can talk a bit about your book. First off, the research at the front that traditional grammar instruction doesn't help and could actually harm, could you tell us just a little bit about that? 'Cause that was news to me that I found interesting. Patty McGee: Yes. So I'm actually gonna go to that part because there's so much research there. Um, it's decades deep how much traditional grammar instruction, A, doesn't work, um, and B, can actually have the reverse effect that it's intended for. Uh, I go through so many different research, um, research studies, like, uh, just a meta-analysis on grammar instruction, um, where they quoted, "If schools insist upon teaching the identification of parts of speech, the parsing or diagramming of sentences, or other concepts of traditional grammar as many still do, they cannot defend it as a means of improving the quality of writing." That comes from Hillocks and Smith. I mean, it can't be more straightforward than that, but just the majority of research, um, that I shared here is really backing up that same statement. But then there's hope in Graham's research around the way that we can teach grammar, and the three most effective ways of teaching grammar is sentence construction, sentence expansion, and sentence combining, because the sentence is the building block of all writing, and it's the container of all parts of speech. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. And I, I would love to dive into some pieces of your book and how you talk about, like, going after that, kind of pursuing what that research finding said. One of the most fantastic things I love is a good arc, and I, I love your kind of arc of your grammar study unit. I just thought, I mean, even as I mean, I taught literacy and social studies, and I was like, "Oh, you could do this in social studies, too. I imagine you could do an element of this in math or science as well." Like, it's so beautifully constructed around inquiry and student learning. And anyways, I'm talking enough. Can you talk us through- Yeah. It's okay ... kind of the arc of your, your units? Patty McGee: Yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, the concept of teaching grammar in units, I think, is rather unique, that we often in the past have done, "Okay, we're going to identify nouns." And then we're going to identify verbs, and then we go on to some other isolated, um, type of experience. But the, the arc of a unit of study, um, in grammar follows Hattie's research on how people learn, that we learn first through surface learning, then deep learning, and then transfer, and that's how we've set up the units. At least the f- chapter three is a full-on unit day by day that we really want to suggest we follow very closely. Um, but then the other chapters are using the same blueprint of the unit, and then it's kind of choose your own adventure. So we start off with this surface learning, and if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to share a metaphor that I often refer to to talk about these phases of learning. So a number of years ago, um, my mother-in-law, who is from Ireland, she came over when she was 20, and she decided it was no longer her job to be cooking Thanksgiving dinner. Um, and she told us as much, and she was right. She, you know, there's no Thanksgiving in Ireland. So what we did was we decided we would, uh, take over, and we were going to fry a turkey, which is something my neck of the woods it's, it was, like, all the rage at the time. So our surface learning was looking at videos of how to do it, getting the materials, looking at what not to do, how to avoid, um, some of the more difficult parts of it. We tried it out but with water instead of oil. We just did all of this naturally for ourselves, and then it turned to deep learning, where we fried a turkey and it was good. We fried a turkey again, and it was even better. And then the third time, we were like, "We're pro at this. Let's try some other meats and some vegetables perhaps," and that was our transfer time. So it's something that we naturally do, and that's the same way we set up the unit, uh, for grammar, was that we really harness, um, that surface learning through immersion experiences, and then we have different areas of focus that we get deeper and deeper with, um, just like our turkey. And then it sets up for transfer, and there's time to create things, um, that we'll bring to when we're writing, whether it's in different writing types or different content areas. And then the transfer just continues and spirals through. Lindsay Lyons: I love the structure so much, especially how you break it down, and I love the, there's a structured unit as well as in the book that choose your own adventure style, which I think is very- Mm-hmm ... freeing for a lot of teachers who like that autonomy to be creative. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I also love that you included a bunch of kind of t- I would call them, like, teacher tips throughout. Patty McGee: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, one of them, I'll just share a couple of the ones that I liked, and maybe you could expand upon them. Sure. I love the tip to have students be in pairs potentially for the whole year, as opposed to constantly mixing. Mm-hmm. Love that. Uh, just the advice to not talk a lot, and maybe just ask a question instead when students are grappling and learning. Um, the pacing, like, just the idea of constructing within a unit, you know, of grammar study, but also to build reflection in as a valuable lesson or lessons within the unit. Um, I don't know if you wanna expand on any of those, but I just really liked those a lot. Patty McGee: Y- yes. I'll be happy to expand on any and all of them. Um, having partnerships and long-term partnerships, which, uh, preferably would be at least one unit, if not the entire year, is an opportunity, number one, for grammar out loud. Because standard grammar isn't something that we're used to hearing. And so when we are speaking, um, and practicing and playing with, uh, say, building compound sentences, we're not only seeing it, but we're also hearing it. And then in partnerships, we're co-building this grammar know-how. If we're talking to somebody new every day, we're not building off of the conversations we've had before. And so therefore, long-term partnerships are extremely helpful for grammar learning What were the other two that you just mentioned? Um, one Lindsay Lyons: was teachers not talking, maybe posing a question instead. Patty McGee: Yes. So I have found, and I'm guilty of this myself, uh, that sometimes we as educators feel compelled to talk a lot, and also to do so with a very strict, maybe inflexible set of slides that we adhere to, and therefore are not as responsive to what students are showing us that they need. Um, and because this is so, this approach is so inquiry based, there's a greater chance of students learning if we pose a challenge or a question. So let's say students are using a grammar manipulative where they're creating compound sentences, and they didn't accurately do so. Maybe they left out a comma. Um, I might say instead, "That's almost a compound sentence. See if you can find what you're missing." And usually the other partner is like, "I told you you needed a comma." You know, it's always something in that kind of way. But if we are doing all of the talking, it's, it takes away from the experiences that we want kids to have with grammar. And I also, we recommend in the book that it's 10 minutes, three to five times a week. And so instead of thinking about them as lessons, thinking about them as grammar experiences that kids are having, if we can't fit into that 10 minutes, we should maybe reflect on how much of the talking we're doing during those 10-minute pockets Lindsay Lyons: That's a really good cue for teacher reflection. And then th- actually Mm-hmm ... that's a good segue into the third thing, was building in reflection to, as a grammar experience. Patty McGee: Uh, I might, I don't know. This whole book I have favorites, but one of my favorites is this reflection, that we pause and ponder, um, is what I call it. And the things that come out of students' mouths is just pure gold. Like a, a fourth grade classroom, um, after they had learned about simple and compound sentences and independent clauses, they were like, "Can you have more than two independent clauses in a compound sentence?" And that's accessing what's usually a seventh grade standard. It, but they're curious about it. They're wondering. Um, another, another that comes up is often, "I really wanna use the word because. It would make more sense in, in some of these sentences I've been creating. How do I do that?" And that leads us right into complex sentences. And just creating space for curiosity in those reflections of, of solidifying what we know just by pausing and, and I often say that, uh, reflection is the stickiest glue for the brain. And so we're kind of, like, solidifying that, and then using that as a springboard to think, "What do I want to know more about?" I think it's something very unique in grammar Lindsay Lyons: I, I love that. Like, all of the pieces of that are so powerful, and often I think reflection gets skipped the quickest- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm when we're stressed for time, pacing calendars are full. Patty McGee: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: And then it's, "Oh, well, that's not direct instruction," or, you know, uh, and I guess not just the reflection- Yeah ... but all the other parts that are not direct instruction are the things that get cut, and- Yeah ... the whole thing together is what makes the journey effective. Patty McGee: Exactly. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Patty McGee: Exactly. Lindsay Lyons: I'm wondering if there are maybe one or two big challenges that you've seen teachers encounter as they try to shift away from traditional grammar and to do something like this, and how you might, you know, coach someone through that challenge. Patty McGee: Yes. So I have done a boatload of anecdotal research around what are the biggest challenges for educators, um, and it is the educators' knowledge and comfort with grammar in general. I was with a group of teachers this week, and we were working on a unit, and we got to, uh, complex sentences, and w- we had to pause, and they were so open, which is really helpful, and they're like, "I don't remember these rules. I, I didn't know there were two forms of complex sentences." And- Just to refer to the book, um, you can find answers to your questions about grammar in lots of places, on the internet and, you know, lots of handbooks and things like that. But in the back of our book, my co-author, Tim Donahue, just took his, like, brilliant grammar brain and gave us a whole tutorial in language that's accessible to understand grammatical concepts that we don't, that are very commonly misunderstood. And he even has in here, I just love this, like, concept that he came up with and how he executed it. He created videos of him teaching these grammatical concepts, and he has, uh, he set up in his basement a dry erase board, and his kids, uh, he has three sons between the ages of fourth grade and eighth grade, and they helped record them. So the type of conversations that go on in the Donahue home, like he told me that one of his kids came home and said, "Do you know that so-and-so used a semicolon today?" So like what he created back there is just so accessible that he has a fourth grader commenting on semicolons. You know it's, it's that, it's that good. And that's also just how we partnered up. He has a way of explaining grammar that's like no other that we've ever seen, and at first came to light back, uh, about 10 years ago when he was a supervisor, um, of humanities. And he was teaching us about grammar, and I was there to consult. And all of us in the room were like, "Whoa, we did not know that." And that is one of the hardest parts of, um, teaching grammar is we don't need to know it all, but that's something that's stopping us. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Actually, I, I think that is a very common thing in any inquiry-based pedagogy is- Mm-hmm what do I do when I don't have an answer to the question the kid is asking me in this moment? Patty McGee: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: And w- I think part of that is, you know, have those resources ready so you can consult even in the moment. Yeah. Perhaps in something as great as, as the resource that you have, that's probably easily findable. But even in a larger question or if you don't have, you know, the book with you, what do you think is a good response for a teacher in that moment if you don't have the answer ready? Patty McGee: I think it is, "I don't know. Let's find out together." Lindsay Lyons: I love that. And then come back. Patty McGee: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: Yep. I love it. Cool. I, I am really excited to just know that this book is out in the world- and that people are going to implement it, and that kids might actually love grammar now, which is super cool. Yes. I'm curious to know one thing, you know, if people are o- ordering the book and it's on the way, like, what's something that they could do? They just listened to the episode today, they're gonna walk into their classrooms. Is there anything they could do right away that's like a one quick implementable start to, to practicing grammar in this new way that's not like we're gonna outline a whole unit of study that we're gonna start later? Patty McGee: Yes. I think the most impactful, easy things that, um, teachers can do is to think of grammar manipulatives. That is one of my favorite parts of the book as well as in partnerships. Let's say very simply, um, do some sentences in a sentence, um, or sentences from a sentence, where we take a sentence or two that we really like. We, um, open up a doc and copy it onto that doc. We then, uh, enlarge the font, cut out each word, and in partnerships just make sentences together. It's super simple. There's n- very little prep to that. Kids can help cut or you can cut, but you only need one collection per pair or trio. And I think starting with something as simple as that can be very, very useful. I also have a blog post on, on my website. There's a lot of resources, but I believe it's also, um, through NCTE, and it is a series of just starting with compound sentences, like getting your feet wet, um, day by day, four or five days of grammar experiences. So that's also an easy-to-get resource. Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. Thank you for having that available for people. And I love just the idea of grammar manipulatives. Yes. I had to reread that, like, four times, 'cause I was like, "Wait, what?" I was, "Oh, got it." Like, so accessible, but I never associate the term manipulatives with English. I'm always like, "Oh, the ma- that's a math thing." Patty McGee: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: I love it. Patty McGee: Yeah. Yeah. I just love it too, and I'm so jazzed by it that I keep creating more of them. Like, when they come to me, um, I create them, but then I also see kids creating their own versions of manipulatives. Like, it's, it's just amazing to see. Like, there was a second grade I was in, um, demoing, you know, some grammar, uh, experiences, and they created, like, a kit on how to create compound sentences with directions, unifix cubes. Like, it was like, "What on earth is happening here?" It was so amazing. So yeah, the whole concept I think kids really take off with. And they're all so simple. We don't need bling. We don't need fancy things. We don't need... We just cut through the complexity of it all, and it, the simplicity is really where that power is, is found. Lindsay Lyons: I love that point because what really drew me to what you were saying at first was find a sentence that you like. Mm-hmm. And this idea that reading is connected to writing is connected to grammar- Mm-hmm ... understanding, and learning is just so beautiful that I can read whatever I need to read out in the world for school and find something I love, and then dig into that or play with that. Like, that's fun as opposed to- Mm-hmm I'm doing a worksheet. So. Patty McGee: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Okay, to close us out, this question is purely for fun, although it can relate to your work as well. Okay. What is something that you have been learning about lately? Patty McGee: Oh, I have been learning, this is so funny. I've done a deep dive into circus history. I just have a curiosity about it, and I guess that's an apropos word to be using when it comes to the circus. Um, I started to create a text set for a school for us to experience, um, text sets and, and what they can do for us, and I was like, "I think I might go in that direction." And I haven't stopped. And we have a text set that I use, but I'm still curious about it. It's just so fascinating and so many dimensions to it, like of things that are so wrong that we realize today, but then also, like the space of inclusion for people who didn't find it in the world. It's, it's fascinating. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. That feels very fascinating and nuanced. I'm- Now I'm interested. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. The last question is really just where can people connect with you, learn more about you, get your book? Patty McGee: So you can go to my website, which is pattymcgee.org. Make sure you spell Patty with a Y, because Patty with an I is a skateboarder, and I can't do that. Um, s- and on there you'll find lots and lots and lots of curated, created resources, downloadables. Um, and I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn. Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Patty, thank you so much for this conversation and for putting your book out in the world. Patty McGee: Oh my gosh, it's a complete honor to be here with you, uh, and, and talk with you. It's, it's just a professional dream, so thank you.
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In this episode, Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey joins Lindsay Lyons to discuss the P.O.W.E.R. framework, a guiding tool for implementing justice-centered curriculum in social studies education. The conversation dives deep into this framework's essential components: Presence and Personhood, Oppression and Opposition, Wisdom and Wit, Entanglements and Empowerment, and Relevance and Responsibility.
Dr. Erker Caffrey uses this framework to provide guidance around initiating justice-oriented curricula. Because it’s such a big and complex topic, it can feel overwhelming and many educators don’t know where to start. This framework helps bring some clarity and coherence to the conversation. The Big Dream Dr. Erker Caffrey envisions that every child experiences a dynamic and justice-centred education, especially across the social studies disciplines. This means that there needs to be a transformed educational landscape where every teacher feels equipped and confident to deliver this kind of curriculum in their contexts. Mindset Shifts Required There are some key mindset shifts required to embrace a justice-centered approach to curriculum design. Teachers are often overwhelmed and worry they don’t know enough in this area — this is a valid and common barrier to implementing justice-oriented curricula. One way to address this is to embrace a clear vision of their roles in achieving equity-oriented education. Teachers need a framework, a guiding tool, that is transferable across identities, topics, and disciplines. Action Steps The P.O.W.E.R. framework is something that helps educators decrease their overwhelm and move forward with confidence. It stands for:
The framework can be applied to a single lesson, longer curriculum, year-long strategy and other components of curricula. Here’s some tips to get started: Step 1: Analyze your current curriculum through a critical lens. Consider the presence of identity and humanity in your materials and the timing of introducing topics of oppression. Step 2: Ensure your curriculum balances stories of oppression with those of resistance. Incorporate narratives that highlight both adversity and counteractions. Step 3: Foster joy and creativity in learning by integrating diverse cultural expressions and forms of wisdom. Finally, encourage student-led inquiry that reflects on these complexities. Challenges? The biggest challenge educators face is not that they don’t want to implement justice-oriented curricula, but that they are overwhelmed or unsure on how to get started. This is where an impactful framework can really help. One Step to Get Started Dr. Caffrey suggests that educators begin by examining their own curriculum to identify whether it includes elements that affirm students' personhood before delving into oppressive narratives. Small shifts in the order of content and the inclusion of diverse perspectives can make a significant difference. Stay Connected You can learn more and stay connected with Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey in the following ways:
To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing The P.O.W.E.R. Framework and the LETS ACT Framework with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 268 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Genevieve Erker-Caffrey, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited to be here. Lindsay Lyons: I also am super excited, and so I love that before we hit record you said that you are, like, a frameworks expert. I'm also, like, a nerd of frameworks, and so I'm really excited. You- historically, people should totally listen to, and I think we should link this in the, uh, show notes as well, um, your episode on Visions of Education around the Let's Act framework was brilliant, and I loved it. Um- Thank you ... and now today we're talking about the POWER framework, which is so, so cool, and so situated in my mind in the context of, like, student leadership and awesome curriculum design and doing school differently and transformatively. Like, this is really rich, and I'm excited to get into the conversation. I'd love to know if there are things that you want the audience to kind of be thinking about or have in their mind as we go through today. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Sure, yeah. Well, I think that if teachers, coach- you know, I know that your audience is, um, varied, but I think the thing that I would try to think about is when you, when, when you are planning curriculum and trying to make it, quote unquote, equity-oriented or justice-oriented, um, you know, what exactly are you thinking about, and what are those components? And where do you feel like you do a really good job of which components do you feel like you do a really good job, um, and where do you feel like you get a little lost? Like, when, what exact topics or identity groups are you feeling like, "You know, I don't know how to make this equity-oriented." And I'm hoping that my, this conversation and the POWER framework can provide a little bit of guidance for specifying what it is we're actually talking about when we say justice-oriented curriculum, especially justice-oriented social studies curriculum, which is my area of expertise. Um, and then once we identify those components, what do those really, truly look like in curriculum and instruction? Um, because oftentimes it can just feel kind of elusive. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, okay, we're talking about diversity, we're talking about making the world a better place, we're talking about, you know. So I, it's something that I craved as a teacher, um, to help with that guidance. But, um, I'm hoping that the POWER framework provides a little bit more guidance, um, not to simplify the ideas, because it is complex. This is a complex endeavor. But to, um, to help provide a little bit of clarity and, and coherence so that we can dig deeper into complexity. Lindsay Lyons: I love that framing. Well, very well said. I wanna start, as I start all episodes, kind of with this idea of freedom dreaming. So Dr. Bettina Love describes these as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so curious what your big dream is. Maybe this is a bit of kind of a, a why behind the framework. Maybe this is a bit of a, a lot of things, but curious what the dream is for you Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Well, my dream is that every single child experiences a phenomenal justice-centered dynamic, engaging social education, social studies education, or education in general, but specifically when talking about history and civics and geography and, and economics, and these concepts that are so, um, so consequential for the ways that we live our lives and the decisions that we make. Um, I hope, my, my dream is that every student receives that kind of, of education, because some have. You know, there are some phenomenal teachers and cur- some amazing curricula out there that we... that, that certain children are lucky enough to experience. Um, usually it's piecemeal. It depends on the teacher, it depends on the unit. They get, not a lot of kids get, get it K through 12. But my dream would be that every child gets it K through 12, which means every teacher would need to feel equipped, confident with, uh, with, with delivering that kind of, that kind of curriculum. And that is easier said than done. And something that I've found in my work is that I've, I've spent, a lot of my research has been with teachers who have a critical equity-oriented mindset or commitments, and they're... actually, even administrators are supportive. Even the districts that I've worked in are not restrictive. But still, there is this struggle to figure it out, and I've kind of realized that a lot of the problems are organizational. Um, they are, there's a big fragmentation of the infrastructure, the curricular infrastructure of specifically elementary social studies education. There's so much great stuff out there, but it's all over the place, and it's a mess, and it's fr- it's fragmented, and that is dizzying for teachers. Um, and then there are so many frameworks, justice-oriented frameworks that are fantastic, phenomenal, and needed, but teachers get overwhelmed by them. So my dream is now, like now on a more practical level for myself, is to provide, um, both services that can guide districts, schools, um, or publishing companies, teams of educators of any kind, to finding the, or to, I, I would like to train these teachers, these educators in understanding, um, the overarching arc of what it means to do social studies education in a justice-oriented way, and then equip them with the, not just the resources, but the, the theories and the thinking tools, um, and then eventually the students having those thinking tools that, so that they are able to think with theory. I think a lot of times, you know, we think, "Oh, teachers just want the stuff," and they do, and we should give them the stuff. And th- that is another dream of mine to- my dream is to have my own publishing company where I'm really creating this coherent curriculum f- that, or c- taking curriculum and making it more coherent in a justice-oriented way. But, um, also tra- uh, always training teachers on what it means to think with critical theory. And I think people think that that's should be saved for the curriculum writers, the researchers, the scholars, but I think not only teachers can think with critical theory, but so can students. But w- we just have to try. We have to do it. We have to um, it's, it is again, it's easier said than done. Lindsay Lyons: I love all of those dreams. Those are great. I also recognize that you and your research and experience have worked with so many educators, and I, I'm curious about kind of the mindset shift of, I, whether it's going from, like, overwhelmed to, like, clear on how exactly to design curriculum that is justice-centered in social studies, or if it's, "I'm not sure about this," or if it's the kind of leader mindset shift around, like, how do we structurally support- Yeah this work? Like, what's a key mindset shift you've noticed in, in actually bringing to life some justice-centered curriculum in social studies? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Fantastic question, because you are right. There are numerous barriers to, um, to doing this comprehensively, to doing justice-oriented social studies curriculum. To do it sustainably c- uh, there, the, the barriers are plenty. Teachers are worried about, "Do I know enough?" I- they don't feel like their social studies curriculum was good enough, so they feel like, they often say, "How do I teach what I don't know? I know I need to teach counter-narratives, but how do I do that?" Um, and the, uh, the barriers of, yes, then of course there are many restrictive con- restrictive contexts, especially in our sociopolitical current state, that, um, people are really scared to even say the word equity or justice in some spaces. Um, then there's the organizational fragmentation. You know, okay, so I could go on and on about all... It- I just wanna validate that those are real challenges, and it's, I don't want teachers to feel like, "I'm not doing this, so there's must be a problem with me," or, "I'm not committed enough," or, you know, I, I don't actually think that this is a, um, teacher commitment issue. It's a, um, I mean, it can be in some, but most teachers really do want their students to make, to, to, they want to provide a, a responsible, engaging, and comprehensive multiple perspectives type of, of social studies curriculum, but they just are, like, really scattered on how to do it. Um, so a mindset shift in term- in terms of, um, well, with the teachers that I worked with- They had this commitment to justice and equity and, um, and diversity and inclusion and everything. But what they were saying was they needed, they, they... When they expressed their scatteredness, their, their insecurities, their challenges, and then I said, "Okay, what would it take? What would it take to make you feel confident?" Um, and they, these were teachers, this was like a small team of teachers who were, um, writing, they were preparing to write, re- overhaul the elementary social studies curriculum in their, in their district, and they felt ill-equipped in the beginning. Um, they felt like, you know, emotionally ready and... Except, but they just felt ill-equipped on a more practical level. So, um, you know, I said, "What, what would, what would it take?" And they kind of identified four things. That's, they identified four things that it would take to, like, get them to actually put it into action. They needed a framework. They needed a guiding tool, some kind of guiding tool, uh, that, number one, was actually guided, which was actually grounded in critical theory, that was truly equity-oriented, and not really, 'cause there's a lot... Like, like, again, like what does that mean? Um, number two, it had to be transferable across identities, topics, and disciplines. So even though they, I was, had, I had previously been introducing a lot of identity-specific frameworks for, like, how to teach Black history, how to teach indigenous history, how to teach, um, like, uh, something specific within civics or geography. You know, they, they were like, "These are all great, but, like, our standards and our resources, they don't just teach everything in isolation with these topics or identities." I mean, some standards literally say, "What is the, you know, what was the interaction between this group, this group, and this group?" You know? So you can't just... So there were a lot of questions like, "Does this Black history framework transfer to the Asian American history?" You know, like, it's, like, it was, um... So they n- they, uh, desired some sort of, um, overarching framework that was iden- was transferable across identities. Um, number two, uh, number three was, um, they wanted it to be sequence sensitive. They felt as if a lot of, um, I don't know, uh, leaders and administrators would kind of, like, um, like, kind of put down their desire for s- scopes and sequences, um, for be- 'cause it sounded like when they were saying, "We want a scope and sequence," I think they thought the administrators were hearing, "We want scripts. We just wanna be told what to do." But they were like, "No, it's not that we just wanna be told what to do, but we also- What we are doing here with history education is filled with trauma and depressing topics and, um, very, the, the topics that could traumatize students in our classroom. If we don't do this right, if we don't think about the order in which we are discussing these topics, we could cause a lot of trauma. So, we don't need a step-by-step checklist, we don't need scripted curriculum, but we do want this framework, this guiding framework, to be sensitive to sequencing and help us understand what comes first generally, what comes second, what comes third, what is important, um, when discussing especially really hard histories, um, or, or really any histories. Um, and then fourth, the fourth thing that they said this, this guiding framework would need was it would need to be emotionally balanced. So often they felt as if their social studies curriculum was either really depressing, so if they were talking about something depressing, they felt like bad that they could be causing some trauma for kids in the room. It was just, you know, that's not a good feeling to, you know. But they also felt like as soon as they got out of the more, quote-unquote, again, depressing or the oppression stuff, they felt as if they were maybe like whitewashing things. Like, they c- they, they couldn't-- They felt like they know joy is important, so they would go into the joy stuff. But then as soon as they were in the joy stuff, they felt like, "Oh, no, we're like, uh, are we- am I becoming one of those teachers that doesn't like, you know, really confront and interrogate the oppression involved here? Like, is this too joyous?" So, they just felt back and forth like they couldn't find. So, they said, "We would really appreciate some emotional balance across this guiding framework." Um, so yeah. So, those are the four things that I set out to, um, to accompli- to, to, to, to implement into this guiding framework. And, you know, fast-forward a year later or say months and months later, we, uh, together with the teachers, but me going back and forth between scholarship and working im- implementing the POWER framework with the teachers, um, we came up with, with, with the POWER framework. It, um, stands for different words. Um, but each, in each letter, each word, each word started with a different word at the beginning of the year with me implementing it with the teachers, and then over the course of a year, it sort of evolved, and some of the words changed. Um, because sometimes when you plan s- when you plan a framework with just scholarship, it doesn't necessarily work exactly As, as you would think it would when you put it into implementation, or the way teachers interpret different critical concepts might be different when you actually... So the words matter. The words matter a lot, and they shifted over time, but I- we ended up coming up with the, um, five dimensions that we felt, um, pretty good about in terms of this sequence sensitive, transferable, emotionally balanced, critically grounded framework. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, okay. I'm really excited to dive into this. Quickly- Okay ... I just wanna say, I think for anyone who feels like they're not quite at the space where your educators were, the ones you were working with who were thinking all these great thoughts- Yeah ... that is such a beautiful cue to be like, "Here are the important considerations." Like, all of these things you listed, right? The fact that it should be grounded in critical theory. It should be, like, kind of content agnostic, and, like, a f- the vertical alignment possibilities there is really cool. Uh, like, it, it should sequence to decrease traumatic impact, right? And it should be em- emotionally balanced with oppression and joy, and, and considering the whole spectrum of, of human emotion. Like, I just- Yeah ... it's so good. Like, just, just that. Thank you. That's amazing. I- So I would love to, to actually get into the POWER framework, if you wanna just take us there- Yeah ... and tell us- I Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: would love to ... Lindsay Lyons: what it's part... Okay, great. Go for it. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Okay. So the POWER framework, um, stands for... The P stands for presence and personhood, the O stands for oppression and opposition, the W stands for wisdom and wit, the E stands for entanglements and empowerment, and the R stands for relevance and responsibility. And one of the most common questions I get is, like, "Okay, does this framework, does this guide, like, one unit, one lesson, one, like, the whole entire year?" And the answer is yes, yes, yes, it can do any of those things. Um, the way that I tend to use it is I take, you know, any piece of curriculum, whether it is year-long overview or a one children's book or one unit. I am just sort of searching for those pieces. These, so, you know, there are five dimensions, but then two components within each dimension kind of that are intricately cannot be separated sort of. Um, and so I am, yeah, looking for those pieces. And, and the way that I use it is not, like, to, um, necessarily, again, script something, but to search for what's missing. And then say, "Oh, well, okay, you know, you have r- r- you're really strong with these components, but then one component, you know, let's say wisdom and wit, we're missing, so let's what, what can we add in there?" Um, but not every single lesson or every single unit- Can cover all five. Some do. Some, um, you know, some children's books can cover all five. Some children's books are really heavy on the P or the O or the R. Okay, so let's get into what these all mean. Okay, so the, the, the P, um, presence and personhood. Presence and personhood dimension acknowledges the presence and explores the personhood of students and those in the curriculum with dignified asset-oriented origin stories. So one of the most common pitfalls, especially in elementary social studies education, is the first time that children see Black and brown people in the official curriculum is through slavery, is they are in slave- they are in chains. We know through research, we know through all of the experience, we know that this is a bad, this is a traumatic thing for students. It's also just providing a very inaccurate, uh, picture of history, of human history, that as if, like, this is where Black history began. So, um, one of the most important things to do is, um, to, uh, the P is... I almost made the P just the word positive, but that doesn't really work. But it's we have to affirm humanity, identity, culture, lived experience, joy, genius before harm and oppression. We need to center, um, the voices of marginalized people the way that they want to be introduced. Um, stories of, um- It, we, we want, we, you know, we want the curriculum to not begin with harm or deficiency, disruption, um, but we want to affirm that communities have always existed, created, and sustained life beyond domination, and that children enter classrooms as full people already possessing dignity, complexity, agency. Um, so it's about really grounding all of our curriculum in humanity before critique. And it's hard, especially for really justice-oriented teachers. They have actually a really hard time getting away from the oppression stuff. Yeah, I, I can't tell you how many times where I'm like, "This book is great. It's beautiful. But look, there are like three pages all about oppression, and this is the first week of school, like, or the third week of school." Like, it's too early. It's, it, it's, it's... You know, so let's, let's, let's read this book, or even just read part of the book. Read the parts that you want. But, um, we really need to make sure that it doesn't seep in. And I think that's really... So presence of person, what I'm really talking about is identity, you know? Identity exploration. And oftentimes we think, oh, identity exploration, we, espe- uh, justice centr- justice-centered educators want to get into intersectional identity. And by definition, intersectionality is really about intersection with oppression. And so we have to put on some brakes, and we have to really, um, think deeper about, um- What can, how can we s- how can we get into students' identities and the identities of people that we're going to see in the curriculum without bringing oppression in, in, um, in an explicit way? So examples of that are, like, you know, for little guys K through 2, um, like, um, identity poems, um, sharing, um, like, their name stories, um, maybe, um, mapping important places in students' lives. Um, and you know, like, if they go deep, they're gonna go deep, that's fine. But we don't need to push that. Like, "Tell me about your racial history," like, right away, you know, right in the beginning of the school year. Um, yeah, so but just, like, celebrate, you know, the showing, making su- bringing families into the classroom, talking about their language, their culture. Um, and yeah, there's a lot of ways to explore the students' his- identities without centering oppression. And then with spec- since I brought up the example of slavery, you know, really starting with ancient Afri- starting before enslavement happened. And there are some phenomenal story, books out there, um, that... There's one set, one author, um, her work can be found on, um, ourancestries.com and they're these beautiful children's books that tell stories about ancient, um, ancient African leaders, mostly, um, kings and queens, but also just, um, different leaders. But they, they're told, uh, the stories are told about when they're, when they're little children, and so, um, and they're just experiencing life. It's just a, it's a story about, that any kid could relate to. Um, like, "My dad wouldn't let me do this, and so I did that." And, and so- And then, so a lot of the cur- units that I wrote with teachers to start out, um, was with these kinds of books, and it was cool because the students could see their own identities in the stories, but and then all of a sudden they're like, "Oh my gosh, like my identity has something to do with ancient history?" Like, like this is... Yeah, so it, um, I really like those, those stories. But there's obviously a lot of ways to, um, explore official historical or social studies education without oppression first. But that's... Do you have any questions about the presence and personhood, um, Lindsay Lyons: dimension? No questions. Okay. Just like- Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Let's- Lindsay Lyons: like incredible awe and like gratitude- ... I guess for you- Aw ... taking all of this theory and, and, and recognizing what happens in practice often as like something that shouldn't happen in practice, and we know we wanna do differently, and here's how to do it, and here's concrete examples. It's just- Yeah amazing. Thank you. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: That is one of the things in critical theory, and that's how I came up with this framework, was I studied all of the critical theories and synthesized them, coded them, and like hundreds and hundreds of them, of components within all these critical theories and, um, and synthesized them into these, you know, five themes. Theme, um, but I do- didn't find a lot of like components of critical theories that said, "Don't start with oppression." You know, they, that, that's a, a pedagogical thing that I had to bring in. Um, they just, there isn't a lot of order that is attended to, so, um, thank you for, for recognizing that. We, it's, yeah, it's, um, again, like just n- sometimes it's assumed, I think, but also sometimes I think, um, it's just not where the scholars' brains are. That's just not... Yeah. Um, okay, so you ready for the O? Lindsay Lyons: Yes, let's do Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: it. Okay. So the O, uh, stands for oppression and opposition. Originally, I had O standing for just oppression, and then the W was like, um, willpower or something that meant like resistance. And then I realized over time that in practice- If you're, it- when teachers started thinking, "Okay, I have to read this book up and just center on oppression," that's when we got into that really icky place where we're trying to separate emotion, and it's really impossible. Like, because there has never been oppression without resistance, and so we need to really teach those together. Um, there are, like the Teaching Hard History standards say that, you know, very explicitly. Um, but the theories about teaching about oppr- about oppression itself and interrogating power don't talk about that importance of teaching oppression and resistance together. So it was really about, you know, bringing the theory and the curricular pedagogical work together. So that's why oppression and opposition, they... So we examine systems of oppression and resistance together. It means investigating how oppression operates through institutions, policies, ideologies, cultural norms, and at the same time, centering resistance, refusal, critique, counter-narratives alongside that harm, and reiterating over and over that oppression has never gone unchallenged. Um, I think that, uh, yeah, I think it's easy to just get stuck into one or the other, but w- the reality is, is that they're intertwined. Um, but, and then I have a lot of things that I could say that I talk about when doing workshops with teachers about, you know, age-appropriateness with the oppression pieces especially. Um, but I think, I think what I've found is teachers feel a little bit more comfortable doing the oppression part knowing that the opposition is right there with them, and, like, th- then it doesn't feel as, like when, when, if you're just expected to just teach this, like to really let's, let's, let's examine this, you know, white dominance, um, or the, you know, it's like very sticky. But if you're talking about it as resist- with resistance, it's okay. But also, we don't wanna just talk about resistance We need to also examine the oppressors. So it's a balance, um, definitely. Do you have any specific questions about that? I, I, I mean, there's a lot of examples of what you can do. You know, with the little guys starting out, you can talk about, like, you can ask them about rules and if they think that there are any unfair rules, and, um, notice whose voices are included or excluded in stories. And, um, you know, they do understand. They can understand bias and stereotypes and those kinds of things. Um, and then, like, um, you know, for older students, older elementary students, you can really get a little deeper into analyzing unfair laws or just policies over time and, um, and how schools have... Uh, I, I often talk about it within the context of schools because it's so, you know, uh, familiar to them. But, um, yeah, like how language, EDL, uh, lang- lang- certain languages were excluded and then how they have been welcomed. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways and a lot of, lot of different books. I have lots of book lists of, like- Books that, um, can teach about oppression within these different identity groups. Um, I have books for every dimension of the power framework at different grade levels, in other words. But, um, but yes, so, um, oppression, opposition is, I think most people know that if you're gonna talk, do justice-oriented curriculum, you can't, like it cannot exist without discussing oppression. And, um, that's, that, that is not discussing oppression, that would be turning a major blind eye to reality and history and yes. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Thank you for elaborating the age appropriateness. I feel like I get that question a lot from educators. Mm-hmm. And I have also seen, I think in some of your resources on your site, just the acknowledgement that like, yes, we can talk about oppression when kids are young, it just might look different. And so- Oh, yeah ... I love that you just named for us some clear examples. So I think that will alleviate some of the questions the audience might be having. So I really- Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes, yes, yes ... value that I have so many things I'd love to share. I love starting-- I have some preventive da- like some, the, the biggest fear a lot of teachers have is that, um, well, one of the biggest fears when they're concerned about the students in the room. I mean, yes, there's the fear of backlash and la-la. But the teachers who, you know, really most teachers have a big heart, and they just wanna take care of their students. And they might have, in, in least the, the context that I've worked in, there's usually like the, there's a majority of white students in the room, and then there are a handful, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven teacher, s- students who are Black or brown or come from some kind of marginalized, historically marginalized community. And teachers are so terrified that the first, that, that they will say something about the oppressive history, and all the students in the room will, their heads will turn and look at that one to four students. And they'll say things like, "So wait a minute, then, like so and so wouldn't be able to go to school with us?" You know, say these off- these things that are just really, um- Hard to respond to and could be traumatizing and stuff. So, um, I, I, I want to validate that concern and be thankful that people are concerned thinking about those, those students. That is who we should be thinking about. But, um, I do have a lot of ideas and ways, strategies on how to prevent that from happening. Um, specifically practicing it with dolls, but, but about... So, so bringing in a doll that maybe if, if you... that has an identity from a historically marginalized group, but that isn't in the room. So like maybe, um, a doll, if you don't have any children with hijabs or Mu- Muslim, then you bring in a doll with a hijab. Or you bring in a doll with, that, if you don't have any students who have Down syndrome, then you bring in a doll with Down syndrome. And then you say, like, and then you practice, like, "Okay, we're gonna about to read this book about this. How might we treat this doll, like this, if this was a student in the room?" And, um, that's just one little idea. I could talk about the age appropriateness thing for a very long time. So I don't wanna get too sidetracked. But I mean, it makes sense that it comes up in the oppression dimension of the power framework, 'cause that is, that's the hardest and Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. I also wanna recognize your time. Do you have time- Yeah ... to continue? We can make this- I do ... into a two-part episode if you want. Okay. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Absolutely, yes. No, I, I have plenty of time. Lindsay Lyons: Okay, perfect. Let's do that, and then let's aim for, like, uh, 1:45 at the latest. Does that work? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: I... Yes, yes. At the very latest, yes. I do have to... I have a train to catch at 3:15, um- Ooh, yeah, okay I'm going to Kansas City, but I'm- it's fine. I just, uh... Yes, 1... Maybe 1:30? I don't know. Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Let's do it. Okay. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Okay, yes. I'll write it down. No, but I'm thrilled that you want to hear all of this. That's very Lindsay Lyons: exciting. I do. I- it's amazing. Thank you. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Aw. Lindsay Lyons: Okay, so do you wanna tell us about the W? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes, I do. Okay. So the W stands for wisdom and wit, and it's hard to say that I have any favorites, but it might be my favorite because it is a place where we... It, it's not just about joy. It certainly does generate a lot of joy, and we celebrate a lot of joy, but it's about affirming diverse ways of knowing. It's about bringing, um, ex- it's about centering the experiential wisdom and wit from communities represented in the curriculum and the students themselves. So it's, um, treating typical- treating marginalized music, art, stories, humor, dance, language, creativity as historically grounded knowledge, and that is a lot of fun. And so it's exploring how cultural expression sparks joy, but also can expose injustice, and that is fun to just, like... So it's a lot of, like, comparing and contrasting song lyric, or l- uh, studying song lyrics, um, like This Land Is Your Land, this is my land, this is my... Like, looking at what do you got, like, the, the original s- songs and how they evolved over time, and how there's a lot of wit. There's a lot of, um, um... What's the word? Satire in, in a lot of songs and art, and kids get a kick out of it. Um, so yeah. It's, um... And then, like, in terms of activities, you know, so it's for little guys, it's using storytelling, drawing, song, and movement to explore social studies ideas, creating class books from family stories and community memories. Kind of teaching them, like, sharing oral stories, oral traditions, and validating that as history. You know, it's historically gra- like, history of their families, and, um, comparing stories from different cultures and discussing, like, what they teach, making art, um, showing what students know about identity and place and belong. So, um, using multiple languages, you know, tr- using translanguaging and, um, so yeah. And then, like, older students might, um, compare textbooks. That's kind of fun with, um... And looking at the different ways that, um, poetry and music and visual art are used to, um, tell truth and express joy. Um, students might, um Just create, um, like use children's literature. I mean, there's so much children's literature out there that tells, um, these stories about the wisdom and wi-... I mean, there's, so like there's the ch- the books about how, um, enslaved people used to create, um, the, their cornrows in their hair would create maps for, uh, to lead to the Underground Railroad. You know, that, those are, that's wisdom and it's brilliant. You know, it's brilliant witty. Um, a lot of Goldie Muhammad's work comes to life through this dimension, you know, her focus on cultivating genius, unearthing joy. Um, but again, it can, it can certainly, um, dig up w- oppression again, that is, that is part of it. Um, but, um, yeah, it's a, it's a really fun one where we get into Harlem Renaissance and, um, disability arts and indigenous literacy resurgence as like, you know, like what is the literacy of, of nature, the literacy of nature. And, and by the way, like I, when I think of identity, e- nature, um, and environment and, um, those are all-- I consider that a, a historically marginalized identity group in and of itself. So, um, that is, I think, important. But, um, but yeah, so I could talk for a long time about wisdom and wit. A lot of, I have a lot of, um, children's books that I think are really fun. I mean, I have children's books that fit into all of these things, but, um, these are just really fun. Lindsay Lyons: These are incredible. And I just wanna name for the audience that we will link to the page that has a, a really cool images of children's books and how they map onto this framework. So thank you for putting that together. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes. Yes. Yes. There's something about children's books that, that's the ling- it's like speaking the language for teachers to, like, they see the covers of certain familiar children's books and they're like, "Oh, okay, now I know what you're talking about." Yeah, so I, I do have visuals of those picture, of picture books and how they might fit across, um, each of these dimensions. Lindsay Lyons: Do you wanna tell us about E? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: I would love to. Yes. Okay, so E stands for entanglements and empowerment. So I think entanglements is all about leaning into complexity and nuance, what- no matter what the topic is. Because I think that is the, um, something that we have a tendency to do, especially for little kids, we wanna make it clear and, um, we want, we want them to understand something, we wanna put it on assessment, and we wanna know if they learn it or not. But we really do them a disfavor when we, um, pretend like anything about social life is simple. And so, uh, anything about history, anything about contemporary issues, we, um, need to lean into the complexity. Even the stories about Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks, some of those stories that have been so deeply simplified, um, we need to make sure that like, so Dr. LeGarrette King has, uh, the Black historical consciousness framework, and one of his dimensions, one of his principles is, um, con- historical contention, whi- which meaning historical contention within the Black community because so often the Black community gets, um, represented as a monolith that, uh, all, everybody, you know, believed the same thing about, um, about how we get our rights and, uh, and, and he, and like for example, the Brown versus Board of Education, you know, there, there are really great children's books and stories about how, um, there was contention around that, that Brown, that, that, that schools should not be integrated. And, um, there's always, I mean, it is, kinder- I've seen kindergarten teachers just read a book about Martin Luther King and then read a book about Malcolm X and talk about the entanglements of the civil rights movement within the Black community. So the entanglements don't always have to be, you know, across identity groups. Um, they are often, they always have been within as well. So, um, yeah. So it's about prompting Student-led inquiry into the connections, tensions, contradictions, and unfinished change. We have to prompt them with the, you know, these, these stories that are like, "Oh, wait, what? Not everybody was on the same page about this?" But, um, and not just like w- w- I mean, 'cause really, and, and the reason empowerment is along with it is because, you know, we want to... It's important to celebrate the, the progress that we have made. It is a big part of... It's the number one, um, component of organizing, of activism, is celebrating the wins and celebrating the progress. But, um, and, but, but at the same time, we don't want to fall into the trap of believing that progress is inevitable and that we're just gonna arrive to this place all by itself. We have to recognize the entanglements within the progress. So the empowerment is about the progress. It's about the, the ways in which people have formed, um, coalitions and they have collaboratively found agency and, um, and actually made progress, actually gained rights. And, but the entanglements are like a check on that, on that progress that, um, that making sure that we understand that, you know, it's never as simple as it sounds and, um, or it has been made to seem through certain narratives and stories. Um, yeah, so, um, it's ensuring that, you know, empowerment is not just isolated civil acts, but- Um, teaching students about the capacity to act ethically within and against entangled conditions too. You know, so there's a lot... I, I think it's, it's really about complexity of progress, the complexity of progress, the cl- complexity, but the really the complexity of everything. Um, and yes, there's a lot of... So in terms of like, um, how to do that, I, I guess I, I did mention a few story, a few examples of, you know, comparing and contrasting two different stories. Um, but you can, at the younger level too, you can ra- recognizing the, um, the tensions in the classroom, like as maybe students disagree on, um, on some routines or, um, you know, really recognizing this is hard. You know, it's hard to get along with people and, um, how can we solve this problem and learn to listen and respond, and what can we learn from these stories of people who did figure out how to work together, you know? And, um, so relating it to their personal lives, but also, um, co-creating rubrics or criteria for projects and, um, holding structured dialogues where students practice listening before responding. Um, and like building... I, I al- I think here, you know, the next one, the next letter is R and it, you know, res- it's, well, spoiler alert, it stands for relevance and responsibility. It's the taking action part of it. But I do think the E needs to, um, bring in... It, we gotta g- prepare, prepare for that action. So it's about not just learning about progress itself and the complexity of progress, but starting to plan for it, and starting to think about why, what, what it is we care about within this topic that we're learning about. What are these things that are still, um, what are the current entanglements and the current ways that we could empower ourselves, and how could we start planning student-led inquiry-based, um, action projects? But we, before we actually take the action, we have to plan it and recognize the complexity of that. I mean, it is hard, like, but- You got this classroom full of kids that all care about different things. They might not agree on the best way to solve a problem or address an issue, and so there's, you know, but typically if you sit, if you, if you just get out a chart paper and you start brainstorming ways, you start seeing different clusters of kids that really have similar ideas. So there's breaks, so they break up into groups, and they wanna do work on different projects, and it's about, um, you know, talking through the not as sexy stuff of leadership and, and coalition building and working together and organizing. It's not that exciting sometimes. It's sticky, and it's icky, and it's like, um, involves spreadsheets and Post-It notes, and it's not as, um, yeah, i- it's like we wanna just get to the change. We wanna get to the, the cool part where they're, you know, marching through the street or where they're writing the, they're, they're, they're talking to the legislator on the phone. But there's a lot of work that has to get teased through before that. So, um, that's what the E I, I think about as, um, the E is a lot of preparation for the students' own coalition building and, and, and action. Lindsay Lyons: There is so much organizing and coalition building- Yeah. ... and, like, group work dynamics on, like, a meta level for civic projects as well, so I love this, that they're learning about it- Love ... and they're preparing to do. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes. Yes. Lindsay Lyons: And finally, do you wanna tell us- It's great ... the R? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes, definitely. Um, okay, so the R stands for relevance and responsibility. Um, it's where we make the curriculum matter. Um, teachers are really good at relevance naturally, I think. Whenever teaching about social studies, they're pretty good at naturally saying, "Why does this matter? How does this connect to students today?" Um, that's just, I, I, something I've noticed, that I don't really have to teach student, teachers to make curriculum relevant. They're really good at it. Um, and a- in fact, I had, uh, one grade level, a third grade team plan their entire curriculum so that the R, the relevance part of the R, and the, and the responsibility, the R, was at the end of every unit, no matter what. Like, so unit one was, like, the P and the, and the R. And then unit two was the O and the, and then the R. And then unit three was the W and the R, and then the... You know, so the R was just, like, there no matter what, which I loved, um, because yeah, we gotta make everything relevant, and we don't wanna just have this, like, culminating big, huge student action project at the end of the year. We want it multiple times throughout the year. So, um, so yeah, so relevance is about... And it's not just about connecting the past to the present or the past to the students' lives, it's also about connecting global systems to local lived realities. The whole think globally, act locally. You know, so if you're... 'Cause a lot of kids care about something that's really big and really global, and so, you know, getting them to look at, for organizations and partnerships and with- within their community that's already doing that work, um, that's part of the relevance connection, too. Um, but the responsibility is, again, it's about creating space, making space for students to not just design, not just talk about the solving of the problem, but actually to take responsibility to do actions, um, and pursue responses to the issues that they're studying Um, and to position responsibility as informed, as ethical collective action toward meaningful change. And that can be done in a lot of ways. You know, we have, um, a lot of, you know, kids as young as kindergarten can, you know, write letters to, um, school leaders or to local officials. Um, kids can create posters, make, you know, uh, raise, like, have awareness campaigns about things that they care about. Um, uh, service projects. Service learning is great as long as there is those deep discussions, as long as the P-O-W and E came before. Um, and they could do, um... I mean, w- I've done, like, a water walk when we did, like, a world water crisis where we walk around the school with water, you know, holding water and, or we've, you can do... So that's like, that's like a walk, but not like, you know, y- teachers don't need to feel like they need to be bringing their students to, like, Black Lives Matter protests to, in order to be, like, having done action. Um, writing letters is huge. Writing letters to local or national leaders is huge. Teaching them, writing scripts, and then actually having them call, not just community, not, not just legislators, but also, like, um, there was a group of students that I worked with, with, who were, um, they cared about, like, working against factory farms and wanting to build more sustainable, um, organic farms, so, that treated animals better. And so they would call, they, they, their whole action was calling a bunch of restaurant owners around the, the city and asking them where they get their meat. And that was, that was, like, in, that was in and of itself, you know, their action. So, um, so tons of ideas. I'm sure you, that's something that you talk about on this podcast often. But, um, it's extremely important to make that space for it and, um, and, and, and, and forefront also partnerships, um, I think with other, with the community, um, and teaching students how to really reach out and, um, and look at the opportunities for solidarity, um, because that's, you know, we don't wanna all be working in isolation Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, that was absolutely incredible. Thank you so much. I wanna be mindful of your time, so we can- No, you're fine ... definitely wrap up quickly. But I love this framework. I love the examples. I love how practical it is. One of the things that's on my mind, and maybe this can be one of our kind of lightning round, 15 seconds or less answers maybe. Sure. Like, an audience member who just listened to this, right, or who engaged with the episode, they're gonna feel like there's a lot here. What's one place they can take a small action to get started with this work? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: I would say just taking a look at your own curriculum. So let's just think about, okay, close your eyes. What's your social studies curriculum? And then, um, or, or maybe just take one unit, you know, one unit and think, "Okay, do I have the P? What's, what's going on with the P? Do I have... What's, what identity stuff? Do I have any oppression stuff too early? I don't know. Okay. Maybe. Yes. All right, let's move that back a little bit." Like, what, let's think about the books. If there's anything that's, uh, brings up oppression topics, let's move it back. And okay, now it's the O. Do I have oppre- Are we talking about both oppression and opposition at the same time, or are they separate? And do we have resistance stories? You know, probably, yes, but, um, are they coming up at every instance of oppression that we talk about? And then, okay, quickly, wisdom and wit. Am I generating joy? Are my telling stories through the voices and eyes of marginalized groups, and also through their wit and wisdom, their different ways of knowing and being, and, um, and satire? Um, uh, you know, just, and then the E Is anything simplified, like overly simplified? How could I quickly, like, make sure that the c- we're leaning into the complexity a little bit more? Um, and, and of course, am I providing a space for them to think about how it's relevant to them, and how they might be able to take responsibility? And I think one thing that, a pitfall that I see often at the end of these units are that, that the teachers say, "Okay, n- guys, we've learned a lot. Now it's time to take some action. What are some things that we could do to improve our community?" And even though the, the unit was all about, um, maybe Black history, the kids start saying like, "We could pick up trash. We could, you know, save the turtles." And so, um, I think making sure that the action is actually... Like, it is okay to make that a requirement. To say like, "No, we are, we are, there, this, the, the, we have explored a variety of problems and issues," and, um, it's like within the E, it's important to talk about today. Not, not just th- this historical problem, but th- today's issues, and so, um, how can we address or, those issues, alleviate some problems in those. Um, so making sure that the action you take actually, um, has something to do. So I, I, yeah, I guess thinking about it as a quick checklist. I don't know. That wasn't super short, but, um- Lindsay Lyons: But super helpful. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Super what? Lindsay Lyons: Super helpful though. I love Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: that. Oh, okay, good. Yes, it doesn't have to be this long... I mean, I have rubrics for POWER that just, yeah, just have one or two questions per dimension. Um, and then, you know, just think, "Okay, if I don't have enough wisdom and wit, like, let's do a deep dive into joyous books." Like, that's, that's a fun little activity. Um, yeah. I love- Give me an email or a call. I'd love to share books. Lindsay Lyons: I was gonna say, that's our last question, so we'll segue there. Like, where can people connect with you? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Um, well, I can, um... Let's see. We have, I have a website, schemacurriculum.com. I have an email address, [email protected]. I still have my personal re- website that has a lot of resources on it, um, that people say they, they use still in their methods, elementary social studies methods courses. So I have not taken it down. Um, but it, yeah, that's genevievecaffrey.com, and it has a lot more of, like, my publications, my writings, um, a little bit more about my story. And, um, then all of my writings are also on ResearchGate. I have just begun LinkedIn. I, I quit social media, like, five years ago, and I always say it was the best thing of my life. So I'm trying not to go too quickly back into it, 'cause I, I do wanna get back out there because I just graduated. I'm ready to, to connect more. But, um, right now I'm just on LinkedIn as Genevieve Ecker Caffrey. Um, can I share one more thing about the power framework that I can't believe I did not talk about- Absolutely. Yeah ... that I didn't say, because it's, like, kind of the, like, obvious, like, it's, like, the elephant in the room, but it's the fact that the po- the word power is purposeful. It's not just that these themes happen to spell P-O-W-E-R. It's that power- The circulation of power itself is, through each dimension of power, is important to explore, um, within each dimension. So, and I think that each dimension, um, interacts with power in a different way. So presence and personhood, doing work with students where you don't just jump into oppression and you really dig deep into the brilliance, agency, and humanity that conventional curriculum often suppresses, that is reclaiming power in and of itself. Like, you are reclaiming power by restoring that brilliance and agency of marginalized groups that are going to come in the curriculum and the students themselves. Um, oppression and opposition obviously surfaces the forces that have constrained communities while also illuminating the long histories of collective power that, um, has shown up as resistance and disrupt those constraints. Um, and then wisdom and wit shifts power by legitimizing the power of intellectual, creative, and cultural knowledge systems that have really sustained marginalized people across generations. Um, and it's also, like, putting satire into songs. I mean, what an act of power of... And what a way to harness power. And then entanglements and empowerment demonstrates that power is never singular, um, or self-made, but it emerges through relationships, obligations, tensions, all that make up solidarity work. And, um, I think that obviously the pow- the word power is in the word empowerment. Um, but I think we as a society would become more powerful if we, if everyone were to recognize the complexity in every issue, and that no one is all this or all that, and noth- no issue is all bad or all good. Um, I mean, my children, my own children know that they're not just, they're just not allowed to ask. "Is, is he good? Is she bad?" Like, "Is this good? Is this bad?" Like, 'cause nothing. They know I'll say, "Well, nothing is all good or all bad." And then relevance and responsibility obviously is redirecting power towards civic engagement, transforming our understanding and our learning into an accountable practice. So yes, I think it's just important that, you know, I recognize the word power, um, that yeah, that these are, it, the, the p- when you think of critical, critical theory- What makes something critical is power dynamics. It's the study of power. It's the study of power dynamics. But, um, you know, it's the p- study of power dynamics now, in my mind, through each of these dimensions. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, what a beautiful summary and extension of what we just talked about. Oh my goodness. Dr. Erica Caffrey, thank you so much for this conversation today. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Thank you, Lindsay. I... Gosh, I'm... It's such a privilege, and I'm sorry if it's a little scattered. I just, you know, finished a 350-page dissertation- Lindsay Lyons: Of Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: course you did about all of this, so I could talk about it in a lot of directions. But, um, thank you for keeping me focused and moving along. 
Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
In this episode, Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey joins Lindsay Lyons to discuss the P.O.W.E.R. framework, a guiding tool for implementing justice-centered curriculum in social studies education. The conversation dives deep into this framework's essential components: Presence and Personhood, Oppression and Opposition, Wisdom and Wit, Entanglements and Empowerment, and Relevance and Responsibility.
Dr. Erker Caffrey uses this framework to provide guidance around initiating justice-oriented curricula. Because it’s such a big and complex topic, it can feel overwhelming and many educators don’t know where to start. This framework helps bring some clarity and coherence to the conversation. The Big Dream Dr. Erker Caffrey envisions that every child experiences a dynamic and justice-centred education, especially across the social studies disciplines. This means that there needs to be a transformed educational landscape where every teacher feels equipped and confident to deliver this kind of curriculum in their contexts. Mindset Shifts Required There are some key mindset shifts required to embrace a justice-centered approach to curriculum design. Teachers are often overwhelmed and worry they don’t know enough in this area — this is a valid and common barrier to implementing justice-oriented curricula. One way to address this is to embrace a clear vision of their roles in achieving equity-oriented education. Teachers need a framework, a guiding tool, that is transferable across identities, topics, and disciplines. Action Steps The P.O.W.E.R. framework is something that helps educators decrease their overwhelm and move forward with confidence. It stands for:
The framework can be applied to a single lesson, longer curriculum, year-long strategy and other components of curricula. Here’s some tips to get started: Step 1: Analyze your current curriculum through a critical lens. Consider the presence of identity and humanity in your materials and the timing of introducing topics of oppression. Step 2: Ensure your curriculum balances stories of oppression with those of resistance. Incorporate narratives that highlight both adversity and counteractions. Step 3: Foster joy and creativity in learning by integrating diverse cultural expressions and forms of wisdom. Finally, encourage student-led inquiry that reflects on these complexities. Challenges? The biggest challenge educators face is not that they don’t want to implement justice-oriented curricula, but that they are overwhelmed or unsure on how to get started. This is where an impactful framework can really help. One Step to Get Started Dr. Caffrey suggests that educators begin by examining their own curriculum to identify whether it includes elements that affirm students' personhood before delving into oppressive narratives. Small shifts in the order of content and the inclusion of diverse perspectives can make a significant difference. Stay Connected You can learn more and stay connected with Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey in the following ways:
To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing The P.O.W.E.R. Framework and the LETS ACT Framework with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 268 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Genevieve Erker-Caffrey, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Thank you so much for having me. I am very excited to be here. Lindsay Lyons: I also am super excited, and so I love that before we hit record you said that you are, like, a frameworks expert. I'm also, like, a nerd of frameworks, and so I'm really excited. You- historically, people should totally listen to, and I think we should link this in the, uh, show notes as well, um, your episode on Visions of Education around the Let's Act framework was brilliant, and I loved it. Um- Thank you ... and now today we're talking about the POWER framework, which is so, so cool, and so situated in my mind in the context of, like, student leadership and awesome curriculum design and doing school differently and transformatively. Like, this is really rich, and I'm excited to get into the conversation. I'd love to know if there are things that you want the audience to kind of be thinking about or have in their mind as we go through today. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Sure, yeah. Well, I think that if teachers, coach- you know, I know that your audience is, um, varied, but I think the thing that I would try to think about is when you, when, when you are planning curriculum and trying to make it, quote unquote, equity-oriented or justice-oriented, um, you know, what exactly are you thinking about, and what are those components? And where do you feel like you do a really good job of which components do you feel like you do a really good job, um, and where do you feel like you get a little lost? Like, when, what exact topics or identity groups are you feeling like, "You know, I don't know how to make this equity-oriented." And I'm hoping that my, this conversation and the POWER framework can provide a little bit of guidance for specifying what it is we're actually talking about when we say justice-oriented curriculum, especially justice-oriented social studies curriculum, which is my area of expertise. Um, and then once we identify those components, what do those really, truly look like in curriculum and instruction? Um, because oftentimes it can just feel kind of elusive. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, okay, we're talking about diversity, we're talking about making the world a better place, we're talking about, you know. So I, it's something that I craved as a teacher, um, to help with that guidance. But, um, I'm hoping that the POWER framework provides a little bit more guidance, um, not to simplify the ideas, because it is complex. This is a complex endeavor. But to, um, to help provide a little bit of clarity and, and coherence so that we can dig deeper into complexity. Lindsay Lyons: I love that framing. Well, very well said. I wanna start, as I start all episodes, kind of with this idea of freedom dreaming. So Dr. Bettina Love describes these as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so curious what your big dream is. Maybe this is a bit of kind of a, a why behind the framework. Maybe this is a bit of a, a lot of things, but curious what the dream is for you Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Well, my dream is that every single child experiences a phenomenal justice-centered dynamic, engaging social education, social studies education, or education in general, but specifically when talking about history and civics and geography and, and economics, and these concepts that are so, um, so consequential for the ways that we live our lives and the decisions that we make. Um, I hope, my, my dream is that every student receives that kind of, of education, because some have. You know, there are some phenomenal teachers and cur- some amazing curricula out there that we... that, that certain children are lucky enough to experience. Um, usually it's piecemeal. It depends on the teacher, it depends on the unit. They get, not a lot of kids get, get it K through 12. But my dream would be that every child gets it K through 12, which means every teacher would need to feel equipped, confident with, uh, with, with delivering that kind of, that kind of curriculum. And that is easier said than done. And something that I've found in my work is that I've, I've spent, a lot of my research has been with teachers who have a critical equity-oriented mindset or commitments, and they're... actually, even administrators are supportive. Even the districts that I've worked in are not restrictive. But still, there is this struggle to figure it out, and I've kind of realized that a lot of the problems are organizational. Um, they are, there's a big fragmentation of the infrastructure, the curricular infrastructure of specifically elementary social studies education. There's so much great stuff out there, but it's all over the place, and it's a mess, and it's fr- it's fragmented, and that is dizzying for teachers. Um, and then there are so many frameworks, justice-oriented frameworks that are fantastic, phenomenal, and needed, but teachers get overwhelmed by them. So my dream is now, like now on a more practical level for myself, is to provide, um, both services that can guide districts, schools, um, or publishing companies, teams of educators of any kind, to finding the, or to, I, I would like to train these teachers, these educators in understanding, um, the overarching arc of what it means to do social studies education in a justice-oriented way, and then equip them with the, not just the resources, but the, the theories and the thinking tools, um, and then eventually the students having those thinking tools that, so that they are able to think with theory. I think a lot of times, you know, we think, "Oh, teachers just want the stuff," and they do, and we should give them the stuff. And th- that is another dream of mine to- my dream is to have my own publishing company where I'm really creating this coherent curriculum f- that, or c- taking curriculum and making it more coherent in a justice-oriented way. But, um, also tra- uh, always training teachers on what it means to think with critical theory. And I think people think that that's should be saved for the curriculum writers, the researchers, the scholars, but I think not only teachers can think with critical theory, but so can students. But w- we just have to try. We have to do it. We have to um, it's, it is again, it's easier said than done. Lindsay Lyons: I love all of those dreams. Those are great. I also recognize that you and your research and experience have worked with so many educators, and I, I'm curious about kind of the mindset shift of, I, whether it's going from, like, overwhelmed to, like, clear on how exactly to design curriculum that is justice-centered in social studies, or if it's, "I'm not sure about this," or if it's the kind of leader mindset shift around, like, how do we structurally support- Yeah this work? Like, what's a key mindset shift you've noticed in, in actually bringing to life some justice-centered curriculum in social studies? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Fantastic question, because you are right. There are numerous barriers to, um, to doing this comprehensively, to doing justice-oriented social studies curriculum. To do it sustainably c- uh, there, the, the barriers are plenty. Teachers are worried about, "Do I know enough?" I- they don't feel like their social studies curriculum was good enough, so they feel like, they often say, "How do I teach what I don't know? I know I need to teach counter-narratives, but how do I do that?" Um, and the, uh, the barriers of, yes, then of course there are many restrictive con- restrictive contexts, especially in our sociopolitical current state, that, um, people are really scared to even say the word equity or justice in some spaces. Um, then there's the organizational fragmentation. You know, okay, so I could go on and on about all... It- I just wanna validate that those are real challenges, and it's, I don't want teachers to feel like, "I'm not doing this, so there's must be a problem with me," or, "I'm not committed enough," or, you know, I, I don't actually think that this is a, um, teacher commitment issue. It's a, um, I mean, it can be in some, but most teachers really do want their students to make, to, to, they want to provide a, a responsible, engaging, and comprehensive multiple perspectives type of, of social studies curriculum, but they just are, like, really scattered on how to do it. Um, so a mindset shift in term- in terms of, um, well, with the teachers that I worked with- They had this commitment to justice and equity and, um, and diversity and inclusion and everything. But what they were saying was they needed, they, they... When they expressed their scatteredness, their, their insecurities, their challenges, and then I said, "Okay, what would it take? What would it take to make you feel confident?" Um, and they, these were teachers, this was like a small team of teachers who were, um, writing, they were preparing to write, re- overhaul the elementary social studies curriculum in their, in their district, and they felt ill-equipped in the beginning. Um, they felt like, you know, emotionally ready and... Except, but they just felt ill-equipped on a more practical level. So, um, you know, I said, "What, what would, what would it take?" And they kind of identified four things. That's, they identified four things that it would take to, like, get them to actually put it into action. They needed a framework. They needed a guiding tool, some kind of guiding tool, uh, that, number one, was actually guided, which was actually grounded in critical theory, that was truly equity-oriented, and not really, 'cause there's a lot... Like, like, again, like what does that mean? Um, number two, it had to be transferable across identities, topics, and disciplines. So even though they, I was, had, I had previously been introducing a lot of identity-specific frameworks for, like, how to teach Black history, how to teach indigenous history, how to teach, um, like, uh, something specific within civics or geography. You know, they, they were like, "These are all great, but, like, our standards and our resources, they don't just teach everything in isolation with these topics or identities." I mean, some standards literally say, "What is the, you know, what was the interaction between this group, this group, and this group?" You know? So you can't just... So there were a lot of questions like, "Does this Black history framework transfer to the Asian American history?" You know, like, it's, like, it was, um... So they n- they, uh, desired some sort of, um, overarching framework that was iden- was transferable across identities. Um, number two, uh, number three was, um, they wanted it to be sequence sensitive. They felt as if a lot of, um, I don't know, uh, leaders and administrators would kind of, like, um, like, kind of put down their desire for s- scopes and sequences, um, for be- 'cause it sounded like when they were saying, "We want a scope and sequence," I think they thought the administrators were hearing, "We want scripts. We just wanna be told what to do." But they were like, "No, it's not that we just wanna be told what to do, but we also- What we are doing here with history education is filled with trauma and depressing topics and, um, very, the, the topics that could traumatize students in our classroom. If we don't do this right, if we don't think about the order in which we are discussing these topics, we could cause a lot of trauma. So, we don't need a step-by-step checklist, we don't need scripted curriculum, but we do want this framework, this guiding framework, to be sensitive to sequencing and help us understand what comes first generally, what comes second, what comes third, what is important, um, when discussing especially really hard histories, um, or, or really any histories. Um, and then fourth, the fourth thing that they said this, this guiding framework would need was it would need to be emotionally balanced. So often they felt as if their social studies curriculum was either really depressing, so if they were talking about something depressing, they felt like bad that they could be causing some trauma for kids in the room. It was just, you know, that's not a good feeling to, you know. But they also felt like as soon as they got out of the more, quote-unquote, again, depressing or the oppression stuff, they felt as if they were maybe like whitewashing things. Like, they c- they, they couldn't-- They felt like they know joy is important, so they would go into the joy stuff. But then as soon as they were in the joy stuff, they felt like, "Oh, no, we're like, uh, are we- am I becoming one of those teachers that doesn't like, you know, really confront and interrogate the oppression involved here? Like, is this too joyous?" So, they just felt back and forth like they couldn't find. So, they said, "We would really appreciate some emotional balance across this guiding framework." Um, so yeah. So, those are the four things that I set out to, um, to accompli- to, to, to, to implement into this guiding framework. And, you know, fast-forward a year later or say months and months later, we, uh, together with the teachers, but me going back and forth between scholarship and working im- implementing the POWER framework with the teachers, um, we came up with, with, with the POWER framework. It, um, stands for different words. Um, but each, in each letter, each word, each word started with a different word at the beginning of the year with me implementing it with the teachers, and then over the course of a year, it sort of evolved, and some of the words changed. Um, because sometimes when you plan s- when you plan a framework with just scholarship, it doesn't necessarily work exactly As, as you would think it would when you put it into implementation, or the way teachers interpret different critical concepts might be different when you actually... So the words matter. The words matter a lot, and they shifted over time, but I- we ended up coming up with the, um, five dimensions that we felt, um, pretty good about in terms of this sequence sensitive, transferable, emotionally balanced, critically grounded framework. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, okay. I'm really excited to dive into this. Quickly- Okay ... I just wanna say, I think for anyone who feels like they're not quite at the space where your educators were, the ones you were working with who were thinking all these great thoughts- Yeah ... that is such a beautiful cue to be like, "Here are the important considerations." Like, all of these things you listed, right? The fact that it should be grounded in critical theory. It should be, like, kind of content agnostic, and, like, a f- the vertical alignment possibilities there is really cool. Uh, like, it, it should sequence to decrease traumatic impact, right? And it should be em- emotionally balanced with oppression and joy, and, and considering the whole spectrum of, of human emotion. Like, I just- Yeah ... it's so good. Like, just, just that. Thank you. That's amazing. I- So I would love to, to actually get into the POWER framework, if you wanna just take us there- Yeah ... and tell us- I Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: would love to ... Lindsay Lyons: what it's part... Okay, great. Go for it. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Okay. So the POWER framework, um, stands for... The P stands for presence and personhood, the O stands for oppression and opposition, the W stands for wisdom and wit, the E stands for entanglements and empowerment, and the R stands for relevance and responsibility. And one of the most common questions I get is, like, "Okay, does this framework, does this guide, like, one unit, one lesson, one, like, the whole entire year?" And the answer is yes, yes, yes, it can do any of those things. Um, the way that I tend to use it is I take, you know, any piece of curriculum, whether it is year-long overview or a one children's book or one unit. I am just sort of searching for those pieces. These, so, you know, there are five dimensions, but then two components within each dimension kind of that are intricately cannot be separated sort of. Um, and so I am, yeah, looking for those pieces. And, and the way that I use it is not, like, to, um, necessarily, again, script something, but to search for what's missing. And then say, "Oh, well, okay, you know, you have r- r- you're really strong with these components, but then one component, you know, let's say wisdom and wit, we're missing, so let's what, what can we add in there?" Um, but not every single lesson or every single unit- Can cover all five. Some do. Some, um, you know, some children's books can cover all five. Some children's books are really heavy on the P or the O or the R. Okay, so let's get into what these all mean. Okay, so the, the, the P, um, presence and personhood. Presence and personhood dimension acknowledges the presence and explores the personhood of students and those in the curriculum with dignified asset-oriented origin stories. So one of the most common pitfalls, especially in elementary social studies education, is the first time that children see Black and brown people in the official curriculum is through slavery, is they are in slave- they are in chains. We know through research, we know through all of the experience, we know that this is a bad, this is a traumatic thing for students. It's also just providing a very inaccurate, uh, picture of history, of human history, that as if, like, this is where Black history began. So, um, one of the most important things to do is, um, to, uh, the P is... I almost made the P just the word positive, but that doesn't really work. But it's we have to affirm humanity, identity, culture, lived experience, joy, genius before harm and oppression. We need to center, um, the voices of marginalized people the way that they want to be introduced. Um, stories of, um- It, we, we want, we, you know, we want the curriculum to not begin with harm or deficiency, disruption, um, but we want to affirm that communities have always existed, created, and sustained life beyond domination, and that children enter classrooms as full people already possessing dignity, complexity, agency. Um, so it's about really grounding all of our curriculum in humanity before critique. And it's hard, especially for really justice-oriented teachers. They have actually a really hard time getting away from the oppression stuff. Yeah, I, I can't tell you how many times where I'm like, "This book is great. It's beautiful. But look, there are like three pages all about oppression, and this is the first week of school, like, or the third week of school." Like, it's too early. It's, it, it's, it's... You know, so let's, let's, let's read this book, or even just read part of the book. Read the parts that you want. But, um, we really need to make sure that it doesn't seep in. And I think that's really... So presence of person, what I'm really talking about is identity, you know? Identity exploration. And oftentimes we think, oh, identity exploration, we, espe- uh, justice centr- justice-centered educators want to get into intersectional identity. And by definition, intersectionality is really about intersection with oppression. And so we have to put on some brakes, and we have to really, um, think deeper about, um- What can, how can we s- how can we get into students' identities and the identities of people that we're going to see in the curriculum without bringing oppression in, in, um, in an explicit way? So examples of that are, like, you know, for little guys K through 2, um, like, um, identity poems, um, sharing, um, like, their name stories, um, maybe, um, mapping important places in students' lives. Um, and you know, like, if they go deep, they're gonna go deep, that's fine. But we don't need to push that. Like, "Tell me about your racial history," like, right away, you know, right in the beginning of the school year. Um, yeah, so but just, like, celebrate, you know, the showing, making su- bringing families into the classroom, talking about their language, their culture. Um, and yeah, there's a lot of ways to explore the students' his- identities without centering oppression. And then with spec- since I brought up the example of slavery, you know, really starting with ancient Afri- starting before enslavement happened. And there are some phenomenal story, books out there, um, that... There's one set, one author, um, her work can be found on, um, ourancestries.com and they're these beautiful children's books that tell stories about ancient, um, ancient African leaders, mostly, um, kings and queens, but also just, um, different leaders. But they, they're told, uh, the stories are told about when they're, when they're little children, and so, um, and they're just experiencing life. It's just a, it's a story about, that any kid could relate to. Um, like, "My dad wouldn't let me do this, and so I did that." And, and so- And then, so a lot of the cur- units that I wrote with teachers to start out, um, was with these kinds of books, and it was cool because the students could see their own identities in the stories, but and then all of a sudden they're like, "Oh my gosh, like my identity has something to do with ancient history?" Like, like this is... Yeah, so it, um, I really like those, those stories. But there's obviously a lot of ways to, um, explore official historical or social studies education without oppression first. But that's... Do you have any questions about the presence and personhood, um, Lindsay Lyons: dimension? No questions. Okay. Just like- Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Let's- Lindsay Lyons: like incredible awe and like gratitude- ... I guess for you- Aw ... taking all of this theory and, and, and recognizing what happens in practice often as like something that shouldn't happen in practice, and we know we wanna do differently, and here's how to do it, and here's concrete examples. It's just- Yeah amazing. Thank you. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: That is one of the things in critical theory, and that's how I came up with this framework, was I studied all of the critical theories and synthesized them, coded them, and like hundreds and hundreds of them, of components within all these critical theories and, um, and synthesized them into these, you know, five themes. Theme, um, but I do- didn't find a lot of like components of critical theories that said, "Don't start with oppression." You know, they, that, that's a, a pedagogical thing that I had to bring in. Um, they just, there isn't a lot of order that is attended to, so, um, thank you for, for recognizing that. We, it's, yeah, it's, um, again, like just n- sometimes it's assumed, I think, but also sometimes I think, um, it's just not where the scholars' brains are. That's just not... Yeah. Um, okay, so you ready for the O? Lindsay Lyons: Yes, let's do Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: it. Okay. So the O, uh, stands for oppression and opposition. Originally, I had O standing for just oppression, and then the W was like, um, willpower or something that meant like resistance. And then I realized over time that in practice- If you're, it- when teachers started thinking, "Okay, I have to read this book up and just center on oppression," that's when we got into that really icky place where we're trying to separate emotion, and it's really impossible. Like, because there has never been oppression without resistance, and so we need to really teach those together. Um, there are, like the Teaching Hard History standards say that, you know, very explicitly. Um, but the theories about teaching about oppr- about oppression itself and interrogating power don't talk about that importance of teaching oppression and resistance together. So it was really about, you know, bringing the theory and the curricular pedagogical work together. So that's why oppression and opposition, they... So we examine systems of oppression and resistance together. It means investigating how oppression operates through institutions, policies, ideologies, cultural norms, and at the same time, centering resistance, refusal, critique, counter-narratives alongside that harm, and reiterating over and over that oppression has never gone unchallenged. Um, I think that, uh, yeah, I think it's easy to just get stuck into one or the other, but w- the reality is, is that they're intertwined. Um, but, and then I have a lot of things that I could say that I talk about when doing workshops with teachers about, you know, age-appropriateness with the oppression pieces especially. Um, but I think, I think what I've found is teachers feel a little bit more comfortable doing the oppression part knowing that the opposition is right there with them, and, like, th- then it doesn't feel as, like when, when, if you're just expected to just teach this, like to really let's, let's, let's examine this, you know, white dominance, um, or the, you know, it's like very sticky. But if you're talking about it as resist- with resistance, it's okay. But also, we don't wanna just talk about resistance We need to also examine the oppressors. So it's a balance, um, definitely. Do you have any specific questions about that? I, I, I mean, there's a lot of examples of what you can do. You know, with the little guys starting out, you can talk about, like, you can ask them about rules and if they think that there are any unfair rules, and, um, notice whose voices are included or excluded in stories. And, um, you know, they do understand. They can understand bias and stereotypes and those kinds of things. Um, and then, like, um, you know, for older students, older elementary students, you can really get a little deeper into analyzing unfair laws or just policies over time and, um, and how schools have... Uh, I, I often talk about it within the context of schools because it's so, you know, uh, familiar to them. But, um, yeah, like how language, EDL, uh, lang- lang- certain languages were excluded and then how they have been welcomed. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways and a lot of, lot of different books. I have lots of book lists of, like- Books that, um, can teach about oppression within these different identity groups. Um, I have books for every dimension of the power framework at different grade levels, in other words. But, um, but yes, so, um, oppression, opposition is, I think most people know that if you're gonna talk, do justice-oriented curriculum, you can't, like it cannot exist without discussing oppression. And, um, that's, that, that is not discussing oppression, that would be turning a major blind eye to reality and history and yes. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Thank you for elaborating the age appropriateness. I feel like I get that question a lot from educators. Mm-hmm. And I have also seen, I think in some of your resources on your site, just the acknowledgement that like, yes, we can talk about oppression when kids are young, it just might look different. And so- Oh, yeah ... I love that you just named for us some clear examples. So I think that will alleviate some of the questions the audience might be having. So I really- Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Yes, yes, yes ... value that I have so many things I'd love to share. I love starting-- I have some preventive da- like some, the, the biggest fear a lot of teachers have is that, um, well, one of the biggest fears when they're concerned about the students in the room. I mean, yes, there's the fear of backlash and la-la. But the teachers who, you know, really most teachers have a big heart, and they just wanna take care of their students. And they might have, in, in least the, the context that I've worked in, there's usually like the, there's a majority of white students in the room, and then there are a handful, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven teacher, s- students who are Black or brown or come from some kind of marginalized, historically marginalized community. And teachers are so terrified that the first, that, that they will say something about the oppressive history, and all the students in the room will, their heads will turn and look at that one to four students. And they'll say things like, "So wait a minute, then, like so and so wouldn't be able to go to school with us?" You know, say these off- these things that are just really, um- Hard to respond to and could be traumatizing and stuff. So, um, I, I, I want to validate that concern and be thankful that people are concerned thinking about those, those students. That is who we should be thinking about. But, um, I do have a lot of ideas and ways, strategies on how to prevent that from happening. Um, specifically practicing it with dolls, but, but about... So, so bringing in a doll that maybe if, if you... that has an identity from a historically marginalized group, but that isn't in the room. So like maybe, um, a doll, if you don't have any children with hijabs or Mu- Muslim, then you bring in a doll with a hijab. Or you bring in a doll with, that, if you don't have any students who have Down syndrome, then you bring in a doll with Down syndrome. And then you say, like, and then you practice, like, "Okay, we're gonna about to read this book about this. How might we treat this doll, like this, if this was a student in the room?" And, um, that's just one little idea. I could talk about the age appropriateness thing for a very long time. So I don't wanna get too sidetracked. But I mean, it makes sense that it comes up in the oppression dimension of the power framework, 'cause that is, that's the hardest and Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. I also wanna recognize your time. Do you have time- Yeah ... to continue? We can make this- I do ... into a two-part episode if you want. Okay. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Absolutely, yes. No, I, I have plenty of time. Lindsay Lyons: Okay, perfect. Let's do that, and then let's aim for, like, uh, 1:45 at the latest. Does that work? Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: I... Yes, yes. At the very latest, yes. I do have to... I have a train to catch at 3:15, um- Ooh, yeah, okay I'm going to Kansas City, but I'm- it's fine. I just, uh... Yes, 1... Maybe 1:30? I don't know. Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Let's do it. Okay. Dr. Genevieve Erker Caffrey: Okay, yes. I'll write it down. No, but I'm thrilled that you want to hear all of this. That's very Lindsay Lyons: exciting. I do. I- it's amazing. Thank you. 
Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
In this episode, host Lindsay talks about discourse as change leadership. She dives into the research-backed best practices and theoretical frameworks that help drive meaningful change, especially when facing staff resistance.
Drawing on the work of John Morgan and adaptive leadership scholars like Heifetz, Lindsay emphasizes the importance of constructive disorientation and staff-led discourse to address resistance and foster sustainable change. Why? Adaptive challenges, as defined by Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsy, are “ typically grounded in the complexity of beliefs, values, and loyalties rather than the technical complexity and stir up intense emotions rather than dispassionate analysis." To then address these multi-faceted challenges, educators and teams must bring empathy and strategic discourse to their problem-solving efforts, rather than technical methods alone. Ignoring the intense emotions that come up only does a disservice to your team in finding meaningful solutions. What? When faced with adaptive challenges — or “messy” challenges, as Lindsay calls them — comes down to having a plan that enables leaders to lead with confidence, honor staff humanity, and stay true to the pursuit of educational justice in the face of resistance. Here are some tips that will help you begin this process:
Lindsay dives into all of these tips, using scholarly research to back up best practices for leaders and teams. And, remember, investing in this work not only helps address the current adaptive challenge at hand, but also builds capacity to address new ones in the future. Final Tip Align assessments with the organizational values of growth and risk-taking so that teachers and educators are not penalized for prioritizing change and new ideas. To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Reframing Discussion Prompts with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 267 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: To another episode of the Time for Teachership podcast. This is episode 267, and today we're talking about discourse as change leadership. So how do you respond when your staff resists change? We've done some blog posts and podcast episodes before on this topic, but really wanna bring it back to a blog post, um, and kinda synthesize some other things as well. But mainly, this episode is thinking more deeply about a blog post written in 2020, which is based on the work of John Morgan, who was one of my professors at Antioch University in the leadership and change program, who talks about constructive disorientation. And so constructive disorientation and staff-led discourse can help address resistance in a humanizing way and craft a better path towards sustainable change. Let's think together about how to do this. Here we go Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky say, quote, "Adaptive challenges are typically grounded in the complexity of beliefs, values, and loyalties rather than the technical complexity and stir up intense emotions rather than dispassionate analysis." End quote. I have said that quote so many times, but it's still so good. So whether you're leading a school turnaround effort, pursuing equity and belonging amidst harmful political discourse, or maybe implementing a new high-quality instructional material, change is hard. And if you're dealing with a long-standing challenge, it's likely adaptive, and adaptive challenges are gonna require an adaptive approach. We talked a few episodes ago how discourse is really critical to addressing a lot of, uh, change leadership and adaptive challenges. And having that clear approach, like, "What am I gonna do?" Having that plan when you are faced with a messy challenge is going to enable you as a leader to lead with confidence, honor staff humanity, and stay true to the pursuit of educational justice in the face of resistance. When faced with a disorienting dilemma, which is when our experience doesn't fit with our expectations or beliefs. So for example, we encounter evidence that our way of teaching has not improved student learning, right? We're like, "Oh, like I think I'm a good teacher. That is in my head. I think this is the way to teach." However, I'm noticing that none of my students, uh, improved, you know, whatever it is, their critical thinking or their reading scores or whatever that thing is. When we encounter that disorienting dilemma, research tells us that we actually learn best in the presence of others, when we can try on others' perspectives. So facilitating emotional conversations about change is gonna require intentional structure. So if it's like, "Oh, we gotta talk to people about this to be able to do this well. Okay, well, that's hard. How do we structure it?" When we have purpose-specific discourse protocols and a lot of the foundation and context built up around this, um, we can build capacity to both plan the structure to respond in the case of, uh, maybe a deficit-based comment or a conversational detour, um, we're gonna feel ready for leading change. So my goals for the episode, this is a little ambitious, but we are gonna try to, um, first, I guess, recognize that adaptive challenges require human-centric responses, and the diverse ideas of staff are actually what enable effective change. Also want you to hopefully have a spark of an idea for how to actually create that constructive disorientation for your staff, like how to facilitate it. Um, W-Worgan defines, just so you know his definition, he defines constructive disorientation as, quote, "An experience that unsettles us and sparks our curiosity both at once, and does so in a way that we perceive an opportunity to change how we see the world and for the better." I think there's a lot of, like, inviting stakeholder stories and values and imagination here. I also would invite you to consider how you might plan for a structured generative discourse opportunities, and maybe get an idea for how you wanna respond if a, like, a harmful comment or, like, a deficit thinking comment comes up in staff conversations. Okay, so let's think about what we do. Number one, I think we have to identify that we're working with an adaptive challenge, right? You likely already know this, but be open to what the problem is, really digging deeper than only looking at the technical issues. This is where we're gonna find our disorienting dilemma, as Mezuro puts it, which is, like, the starting point for our change. So Heifetz, who is an adaptive leadership scholar, encourages leaders to ask socially relevant questions that force members to clarify their values and deeply consider outcomes of oppressive actions. So we have to kind of juxtapose, like, the reality, which is often, like, this isn't working or this is marginalizing a group of students or a student, right? With, like, what are the values? We gotta surface both of those. The factual reality, here's what's happening, it's not good, and what are the values that you hold as an educator, right? And then s- then often just surfacing those, um, may create kind of that disorienting dilemma. Um, Heifetz, Grashow, and Linsky, I just saw the name, they liken the adaptive leadership model to evolutionary biology's concept of thriving, where they're saying, you know, the essential components are preserved. The unnecessary ones are discarded. A new arrangement facilitate resi- resilience to future changes. So investing in this work, I think this is important to name. Investing in this work is a, a really sustainable approach to not just dealing with the one issue in front of you, but creating a culture that is adaptive. Like, building capacity for everyone to lead and enact positive adaptive change. That's gonna serve you in the next adaptive challenge that comes up. Okay, so you've identified there's an adaptive challenge. You're starting to think about, you know, the disorienting dilemma. Step two, we gotta build the foundation, and specifically thinking here the social capital. So John Morgan says there is a direct correlation between the amount of social capital in an organization and the degree to which meaningful conversations can be had. So we have to. If we wanna have that discourse, which is critical, we need to up the amount of social capital. So regular community building, story sharing opportunities, sharing appreciations of one another. Like, I like that you did this. Uh, I saw you doing this. Great work. These can be little notes. They can be verbal. They can be at the end of the story sharing discussion. Um, but utilizing staff time for this is not a waste of time. It enables you to have the adaptive conversations when necessary as you pursue change. Um, I can link to the discussion resource bank I have around some pr- particular ideas, um, prompts, formats, things like that. But a simple one I often say to start with is just like what's the story of your name, right? This can be a great get to know you activity if you have new staff members, but it also is something that maybe other people have not shared yet. Another one, who's a person you value? Could be a superhero, could be a fictional person, could be a family member, could be a student, right? Like th- there are some quick prompts that you could do a circle discussion format for and just start to build that community All right, step kind of 2A perhaps. This is like another part of building the foundation. We gotta build the discourse foundation. So to enable stakeholders to reflect on their disorientation and listen to others' points of view with empathy, there needs to be a discourse foundation. So one, that has to be like, you know, we have to have some sort of shared goal. Literally, it could just be John Morgan says, like reminding everyone we're all here for kids, right? Like, we have to have like some lofty shared goal, and it doesn't need to be super specific, um, but shared goals are, are really a prerequisite. Ideological diversity and an openness to hear contributions from all members is a second necessity. So really, we need to identify, like deep listening or seeking to understand is a core discourse agreement. So if we're coming up with how we interact with one another, like we have to seek to understand, right? And, uh, we need to focus on, um, identifying those shared goals and underlying values, of course, before we debate how we're gonna move forward, what the policy is gonna be, right? We need to make those happen if we haven't already in, in the earlier step that we mentioned it. And the third thing we need is a collective responsibility for success, says Morgan. So that literally could just mean posing a question like, "What can I personally do to help us move forward as a school?" Sometimes in strategic planning, we have those locus of control tools or activities. Like this is basically that. You could ask a question, you could use that tool with like the, the bullseye framework or whatever, but we have to have this collective responsibility where no one is opting out. Like, okay, if the problem feels too big, yeah, what can you do though? Like, what is the thing that I can take on and, and commit to? Okay, step three, spark constructive disorientation. So this is John Worgan's term. We defined it earlier. There's a blog post I will link to in this blog post, um, the one from 2020. His tip is, like, make it clear, clear disorientation, but manageable. We gotta manage it. It can't be so overwhelming that people just opt out and shut down, right? Uh, Worgan says, quote, "We don't necessarily have to wait for a disorienting dilemma to hit us over the head and force us to pay attention," end quote. He suggests the practice of mindfulness or critical reflection can surface smaller kinds of disorientation. You know, a third source he says is, like, an aesthetic experience, so, like, a piece of art. Um, it could be student created. It could be, uh, created somewhere else. It doesn't have to be in your local community. He talks about, um, how this is a way for someone to try on the perspective of an artist at low risk to oneself, in his words. And so this could be, like, a Banksy painting or something, right? Like, some sort of, like, social, um, justice-oriented image. Uh, the example he gives is Kehinde Wiley's Rumors of War statue, which was installed down the road from Richard- Virginia's Monument Ave. So something that, like, just kind of is like, "Oh, right, these two things are in juxtaposition," that is, like, making me have this little constructive disorientation moment. Um, a, a tip I would have is, yeah, bringing in student ideas, whether that's student art, videos about their experience, quotes. If you bring students onto, like, a Kiva panel and have a live panel with them sharing to staff about their experiences or family members, this could cause some constructive disorientation as well. Um, also some traditional data, like assessment data, bringing that into the space, um, as I said at the top of the episode, that can also kind of jar. Like, "Oh, I thought I was doing right by students. Hmm." Scores are not going up, right? Like, oh, that could also create the disorientation as well. Okay, step four. Now we're ready to have a group dialogue. We have had the constructive disorientation moment. Now we need to, like, process it. And this, this disorienting dilemma is uncomfortable, and it has to be, because that's what moves us to action. So having a multi-stakeholder group dialogue about the adaptive challenge lets each person be open to new ideas and perspectives to solve it. Remember, that's what the research says. We have to be able to hear other people's ideas and perspectives to try them on in a, quote, "low-risk environment." So what do we do? We set the stage. Worgan says it's necessary to have a setting conducive to deep work so that teachers can deeply concentrate and not be distracted by logistical tasks like checking email, right? So if at all possible, we take all tasks off teachers' plates, and they need to be able to be supported to be present fully in the conversation. This might mean that we are doing this, you know, in the summertime perhaps. I, I don't know. This could be, uh, like we say, "Okay, well, grading is due this week, so we're not gonna do it this week. We're gonna postpone it to next week once grades have been submitted." Right? Like, whatever way that you can take some things off the plates and make sure that we have as much focus as possible given all the things, like, that's the goal here Then as the leader or the facilitator, you need to choose a purpose-aligned prompt and protocol. I find that dialogue works best at first, because the goal there is just seeking to understand and getting a lot of initial ideas out there. We're not analyzing, we're not making decisions. So prompts could be as simple as, "What's coming up for you? How are you feeling? What does this make you think of?" So we just, like, have sparked the disorientation, and now we're just like, "All right. How are you feeling? What's coming up? What do, what are you thinking about?" Right? Very informal, like, initial thoughts. Now, if we're more ... If we're further down, if we've already maybe done that, w- we might go to discussion, where we're a little more topic specific at this point. And you could do more of, like, a dialogue. We're still just kind of, like, listening and seeking to understand, um, and we're just starting to process maybe, uh, a little bit more analytically. You might use some of the reframing discussion prompts, um, that are in the resource linked for this episode's, uh, blog post. Those encourage you to shift out of the binary, this or this, because that supports kind of this attack and defend position, into other spaces. So one might be critical analysis. So we ask about potential impacts or root causes of an issue, right? So e- let's use an example. If we are initially inclined to say, "Okay, we're gonna have a discussion. The question is, should we adopt this new policy?" Instead, if we're thinking about critical analysis, we might say, "What might the impacts of this policy be?" So we roll this policy out, like what could happen, right? Critical analysis. We also could ask about, like, the root cause, right? Like, why, why is this factual reality, this par- this issue coming up? Like, what is the root? Policy could be another framing. So narrow the scope about how to address the factual reality. Some questions are already about policy. Like our sample one, how should we... Like, should we adopt this new policy? Instead could be turned into, how would we like our community to respond to this factual reality? So for example, if you have students who are, like, very into, like, I don't know, all of, like, the misogynistic, like, stuff. Like, h- how would we like our community to respond to hate speech, for example? Like, if this is a given in our community, we are grappling with this issue, how do we want our community to respond when this happens? Because it has, right? Whatever the ha- whatever the thing is. Like, insert factual reality there. How would we like our community to respond? It gives you a sense of, like, we're talking about policy, but we are way more expansive at this point than deciding, like, decision-making, right? That's a later stage. Deciding yes or no on a particular policy. We're still generating and thinking about ideas. You could also identify values. So invite participants to name their values and the community values that you all hold that should inform a policy or could inform a policy. So for example, should we adopt this new policy could get translated into What values would you want to inform our policy? Right? So again, we're speaking more from the "I." We're, we're being able to listen deeply to other people's ideas. A final pivot could be civic imagination, which is always a favorite of mine. So this is where we're inviting a brainstorm of alternative policies affirming dignity. So maybe we had this initial policy, and your thought was, "Okay, should we adopt this or not?" But instead you say, "Okay, how could we move forward in a way that advances our key values?" Right? And you could name the key values. So for example, if you're coming up with, um, like let's say you have kids who are, I don't know, wearing-- Let's just... This is not a good example, but, like, wearing headphones, and some people are saying, "Well, it's a safety issue. They need to be able to hear, you know, whatever in the hallway." And other people are saying, "Well, it's a freedom issue. Like, let kids just be expressive, and, like, what's the big deal? Like, you need them to have a little bit of autonomy in school where they have none." Right? If you have safety and freedom as two identified values that are in tension with one another around a particular policy or issue, your question could be, "How could we move forward in a way that advances both safety and freedom?" Right? And then insert whatever the key values that are in tension are at the end of that question. All right. Once you have figured out the prompt y- and the protocol, like are we doing a circle or are we doing small groups, and then are we journaling and then we're coming, right? Like whatever it is, you need to make sure that you are facilitating intentionally. So make sure we're gonna tell us to be aware of anxiety levels. We wanna keep people at the edge, but not let people fall over it, so they're just like completely overwhelmed, then shut down or, like, completely overwhelmed and, like, yelling, right? We want to maximize autonomy of participants as well, and everyone has different entry points and comfort zones around style of participation, and so we might provide different ways that teachers can participate in conversation. Examples, writing. Maybe we do a journaling activity, so it's completely private at first just to get ideas, right? Some think time. We might do a write around or a collected display where actually it will eventually be public, but it might be anonymous, and they're writing quietly and the verbalizing is not the, the method of communication. Then or/and addition, um, in addition to the writing, we could do a mix of maybe it's small group at first and then it goes whole group, or maybe it's just small group for a little while, or maybe it just goes straight to whole group. But you know your group, and you wanna make sure that you have a... Over the course, I always like to think, like, discourse is not one day. I think a lot about Matt Kay, who wrote Not Light But Fire, and he talks about threading a conversation. We can't just like have one conversation, uh, about a thing for the rest of, of eternity, right? We have to thread the conversation. So we're gonna come back to this discussion. Maybe one day it is writing in a small group conversation. The next day it is a whole group conversation and a small group conversation to debrief it or something. Um, a, a tip that working chairs is to Um, or was this my tip? Now I can't even read my notes. Embrace a human first approach that values the stories and emotions of students and their families. And so we wanna move beyond the off-the-shelf solutions to craft responsive initiatives. I think that's a blend of a lot of people. So, uh, Heifetz, again back to adaptive leadership, urges leaders to connect to members' hearts, not their heads, in order to elicit adaptive change. We cannot ignore the heart work and the feeling of this. We cannot just, like, intellectualize our way to a better solution to a highly emotional adaptive challenge. All right, and finally, step five. We wanna affirm learning and change behavior. So we are asking people to take big risks, right? We are asking them to change longstanding beliefs and loyalties and habits. That's hard. So we acknowledge the hard, we attend to the whole human, we think about the emotions, we respect and honor those, we give space for those, and we want to prompt participants to note how their thinking is shifting, right? I'm thinking a lot about Maria Nichols, um, and her work on, like, building ideas. And so she talks about students need to value different perspectives, and then the facilitator or the teacher in that case can nudge to be like, "How has your thinking changed?" And then students can have their own little disorienting dilemma like, "Oh my gosh, my thinking has not changed at all. I must need to seek out a new perspective," because their thinking should change and evolve. That's the point of talking to other people, right? So that is something that you can do, just nudge, "How has your thinking changed?" Right? Subtly encourage that valuing of different perspectives and have people seek them out. Highlight and validate when a participant evolves their thinking publicly. So if they verbally shifted, right, and they're like, "Oh, you know what? That made me think, actually, I do believe in this initiative," or whatever. Gr- oh my God, like, validate that. Be like, "Wow, that's incredible that you just took in new information and, like, shifted how you thought, and you, like, held it up against how your past thinking was and then you evolved your thinking. That's really cool." They might not do that publicly, but they might do it in other subtler ways that are not, like, verbal or they're not in that meeting. We also wanna highlight and validate that, right? We also wanna narrate when that's happening for us. So modeling is huge for discourse. That is very present in the research on discourse. Okay, encourage teachers to share their successes. So again, this is that positive deviance idea. Um, where is it working? If it's not working, it feels like it's not working anywhere, but it actually is working in one class. So, ugh, all ELA scores are down, or ELA scores are down for all of our multilingual learners except this one class. Actually, they are doing awesome. Okay, great. Like, what can we learn from that, right? It's not like I- I'm gonna discount right away if they're, like, different kids. I do not ever like that argument. Like, something is working here. What is working, right? Let's learn from it and try it out in other spaces. It might not work perfectly in other spaces. There might need to be some adaptation. But let's seek out the positive deviance. Where is it working? Or it might be even bigger, so our district scores are down. However, this school or this grade within the school is doing something right. Let's go visit them and figure out what it might be, or let's have them come to us and share some of their strategies, right? We wanna encourage that positive deviance, and we also want to encourage the people who are learning from that positive deviance to try things. Say, "Hey, this didn't work for me. I'm gonna try that, and I'm gonna report back the learning." That is huge, and so we wanna celebrate teachers for doing that and being committed to growth. We also wanna ensure that any teacher evaluations are aligned to that goal. So our evaluation rubric should be celebrating and commending informed risk-taking, not promoting the opposite, right? Not promoting compliance and rigidity. So we wanna measure what we actually value. If we say, "Hey, we value informed risk-taking. We want you to try this thing. We're gonna pursue change," we have to make sure that we're not penalizing that during evaluations. Okay. This was a very dense episode. Would love to hear your thoughts on how this is relevant for you, what your takeaways are, any tips to add. Would love to hear them. Feel free to comment on the blog post. Again, that is lindseybethlyons.com/blog/267. And again, the free resource for this episode that you can find there is the reframing discussion prompts resource. I am a firm believer that how we language the question up for discussion is critically important for how effective that discussion and discourse opportunity is. So that is a new resource. Please give me all the feedback on whether that feels helpful for you as a leader. Your staff can use it with students. Would love to get some feedback on that, 'cause that is, um, my new passion project, all things discourse. All right, until next time. 
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In this episode, we chat with Dr. Annalies Corbin about the nature of “wicked problems,” which are complex and multifaceted challenges without singular solutions. She emphasizes the importance of fostering agency among students and educators to promote engaged learning environments.
Additionally, Dr. Corbin highlights the significance of understanding and incorporating students’ cultural backgrounds and passions into teaching practices to create a lasting impact. The Big Dream Dr. Corbin envisions an educational system where students and educators discover their passions and find freedom in learning. Honoring our passions and our collective humanity will bring solutions that we’re often looking for. She believes that embracing individual interests and encouraging deep engagement can transform both the learning experience and the education system as a whole. Dr. Corbin is passionate about bridging research and practice to solve pressing educational challenges collaboratively. Mindset Shifts Required Dr. Corbin defines “wicked problems” as big, bold, complex, global problems that have many small pieces that are so intertwined and, because of that, there are numerous solutions. There are no singular solutions. They’re great for learning and teaching because they serve a societal need as we solve them. With this in mind, Dr. Corbin recognizes the necessity of shifting the mindset from traditional siloed education to an integrated, transdisciplinary approach. This requires educators to focus on the intertwining of systems and human aspects, considering broader socio-political dimensions when tackling educational problems. Action Steps When embracing your “wicked problems” and finding solutions that work in your context, Dr. Corbin recommends educators take these steps: Step 1: Invite your students to start thinking about something bigger than themselves. You start with something about the student — what matters and is relevant to them — and then expand it beyond themselves to bring the learning deeper. Step 2: Foster agency by inviting students to co-design learning experiences and engage them in collaborative problem-solving. When addressing something so big and broad, start with what you and your students are passionate about, engaging in it together. Step 3: Scaffold the collective set of experiences in your classroom by understanding your learners and their cultural contexts and incorporating those insights into the curriculum to make learning relevant. Step 4: Prioritize what Dr. Corbin calls the “five threads” of effective education practices: agency, cultural responsiveness, mastery, transdisciplinary teaching and learning (to stop teaching in siloes), and problem-based. The things that stick have those five elements. Challenges? One key challenge Dr. Corbin discusses the difficulty in transitioning from a disciplined school structure to a cohesive, transdisciplinary model. Often, educators are hesitant to leave the safety of subject silos due to systemic constraints, but when done, it leads to a more authentic learning environment that reflects real-world complexities. One Step to Get Started Begin by integrating agency in your classroom by giving students the opportunity to voice their ideas and choose how they wish to demonstrate their understanding. This approach not only empowers students but also begins to shift the educational culture towards one that values both learner autonomy and diverse paths to mastery. Stay Connected You can learn more about Dr. Corbin and her work on The Past Foundation website, or grab a copy of her book, Hacking School: 5 Strategies to Link Learning to Life. Stay connected by email at [email protected] or follow her on Instagram, X and LinkedIn. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing their page on The Past Foundation website with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 266 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Corbin, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Annalies Corbin: I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, I am, I'm really excited to dive in. So I certainly have on my mind some of the things that we corresponded, uh, about prior to this show. So thinking about, you know, wicked problems is on my mind. Mm-hmm. And thinking about the airing of this episode being right at the start of, of school for many places- Yes ... across the United States, and thinking about, you know, all the things that we talk about on the show, like a kind of a collaborative approach to learning and, and leading, and just our capacity for resiliency, I think has been of great interest to the podcast recently. So those are the things on my mind as we enter this conversation. Is there anything that you have on your mind that you wanna share to frame the conversation today? Dr. Annalies Corbin: No, but I think that that's perfect timing. Actually, just before our conversation here, I've been editing three years' worth of research that we're getting ready to, to let go of, and we talk about these very things as so impactful and how we can actually see them be the things that move the needle. So I'm really excited to talk about it. I think the timing's perfect, so yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's perfect. And I am such a research nerd, so I'm very excited. Yeah. Like, the fusion of research and practice will be a great thing. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Exactly, exactly. Lindsay Lyons: So I guess big dream-wise- Mm-hmm ... so thinking of the idea of freedom dreaming, Dr. Bettina Love talks about it as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious to know what that big dream is that you hold for education. Dr. Annalies Corbin: So for me, it's all about, you know, students and educators finding their passion, finding the freedom in learning, right? Just the act of engaging very deeply and spending time, energy, and effort in the things that I'm curious about, that I'm interested in, and that I can then translate whatever that happens to be that I have the opportunity to dig deeply into, into who I am and why it's meaningful to me. And we have to do that both for our learners and for our teachers, right? We have to allow that freedom of expression, and it's not just one or the other. And oftentimes the conversations are about, "Oh, well this is broken," or, "It's so-and-so's fault," or, "This is about, you know, this issue." And the reality is it's, there's systems issues that we're working on collectively and collaboratively, but sometimes when we roll up our sleeves and we do that deep and meaningful work, I think that we forget, we forget about the humans in the middle of all of this. And that if we just honor those passions, that humanity upfront, it would actually solve many of the things that we're working on. Which is why I like wicked problems to come full circle to how we started this conversation, so. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, maybe now would be a good time to define wicked problems. Do you mind going into that for us? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Sure, sure. And I, and again, I love, love, love the idea of wicked problems, and I do feel like the, the global education system is a, is a, is a big old giant, hairy, audacious, wicked problem, right? Um, so wicked problems are problems that are big, they're complex, they're bold, they're incredibly meaningful, um, because they stretch literally across a collective set of ethos, or I like to say they're planet wide, they're global. And they have numerous solutions because they're so complex. They've got all these small pieces and parts that are all intertwined, and I can solve for one of those. If I'm super lucky, I can solve for one of those. And the other thing is, a wicked problem doesn't have a singular solution. That does not exist, and that's the beauty of them, right? Because solutions have to be tailored to the place in which the problem you're trying to solve is going to be applied. And if we don't do that, then it's not gonna work. It might work for me, but it's not gonna work for you clear on the other side of the world or in another neighborhood even. I mean, they can be close proximity and still not work because we haven't collectively, um, internalized the culture, the community, the environment, the constraints, the joys in which that solution is going to sit. So wicked problems are fabulous. They're great learning, they're great teaching, and honestly, they, they, they serve a societal need. We solve a thing that needs to be solved. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for that definition. I often think of adaptive challenges, and I've heard these- Mm-hmm ... used interchangeably. Is there a distinction there, or can those be used interchangeably? Dr. Annalies Corbin: They can be used interchangeably, but I do think that you have to be mindful, because whatever somebody has in their head, you just need to understand that as the outset, right, of the way you're going to approach it. But, but the reality is, the wicked problem also, I think, and this is my opinion, has one sort of step back, right? And that step back for me is that it's really comprehensive of recognizing that there's often this massive sort of policy, geopolitical, sort of s- systems-driven thing. It's so, it's, it's not just about the human, right? It's about all of the interplay of the bigger, broader systems piece. So that's the other reason why I sometimes will, will think of the wicked problem as just being one step removed. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. Okay, now I'm gonna be all about wicked problems. 'Cause we can't disintegr- or dis- aggregate the system- Correct ... from the human, right? Yeah. Dr. Annalies Corbin: You... And, and every time we try, that's when we bump up against these really giant roadblocks. And those are real roadblocks, right? But if we would step back from them and re-sort or evaluate the way that we're thinking about or even seeing it as a roadblock, and again, we connect the system and the humans with the environment, with the geopolitical, with, you know... If we, if we design or try to problem solve with all of those elements in mind from the get-go, we will see a very different picture, and the narrative, the narrative and the journey that goes with that narrative will be very different Lindsay Lyons: Okay, this is really cool. So now I'm thinking about, I usually ask about mindset. So you kind of touched on, you know, you have to approach it in this particular way. Is there- Mm-hmm ... some advice you could offer us or, like, a, a question or prompt- Mm-hmm ... that kind of cues people to think about things in this way that would lead them to be successful with a wicked problem? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah, so I would tell, I, and I tell teachers this all the time. So as you're getting ready to, to go down one of these roads, and let's just, um, use one that's simple that everybody talks about, either sustainability or the environment, right? Whatever, right? You know, that favorite salamander in the pond down the street is suddenly disappearing, right? So your conversation with those kiddos needs to start with somebody else, right? Because this is that big sort of global skill. We're always constantly trying to relate the content, what it is that we're doing to our kids, and at the end of the day, that is absolutely necessary, and it needs to be foundational. But if we really want our kids to work on something that's much, much, much deeper, we have to get them to think beyond themselves really quickly. The easiest way to do that is to say, "Hey, you know, we're about to lose the salamander in our pond on the edge of our elementary campus here. How do you think that that's gonna make the kid in the next state over feel? What do you think somebody else would think about that?" And that cues that sort of, I'm going to really think about something that's a little bit bigger than just me. And, you know, as a great educator, we're gonna bring it right back to the kids in our classroom as quickly as we can because that's gonna then give them the reason why they care about it, right? You start with the thing that's about the kid, but you immediately take it someplace else, and you bring it right back to do the work Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's really cool. I like that it's, it's a both/and, right? That you Dr. Annalies Corbin: were- Exactly, yes. Yeah, yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Okay. This is super helpful, and super tangible- Mm-hmm ... 'cause anyone can apply that as- Dr. Annalies Corbin: Right ... Lindsay Lyons: to whatever lesson. Okay. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Great. So I love how tangible that was, and I'm wondering if there are other tangible kind of actions that teachers or even leaders- Mm-hmm um, can take as we encounter wicked problems in education systems or in, in lessons delivered to children. Like- Dr. Annalies Corbin: Sure ... Lindsay Lyons: yeah. Dr. Annalies Corbin: So one of the things that I will often talk with educators about, especially educators that are... Like, they're frustrated or they're tired. I mean, our incredible teachers are exhausted, absolutely exhausted right now. And so one of the things I hear from them frequently is, like, you know, "I really wanna change what's happening. Perhaps, you know, I don't really like this lesson," or, "My district has chosen this particular curriculum, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't... I'm not excited about it. My kids aren't excited about it." And I will often tell folks, and this is, this relates to the wicked problem because when we're gonna tackle something that's so big, so broad, so overly meaningful, it's really, really important that we, we, we tag it to something that matters to us. And so I will use the phrase teach your passion or help your kids find the things they love. What's their passion? So whatever that thing happens to be, tie it back to something that you care about because as soon as you care about it, your kids will care about it, right? And so I always want people to start there. Yes, I have to teach this unit about X, and I'm, you know, I'm interested in it. It's in my topic area. I trained for this. But do I love it? Maybe not. So how could I translate that into something that I love so that I can lead with the enthusiasm and the wonder that I wanna model for my students? They will pick up on that Lindsay Lyons: That makes so much sense. And I, I'm thinking about topics that if I were to teach them and be like, "Hmm, I don't..." I- if I could- Yeah ... connect it to my passion for like criticality and like- Yeah ... collective justice, right? Like, it would always make every single thing better and more interesting to me, and like- Dr. Annalies Corbin: Exactly. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, love Dr. Annalies Corbin: it. Exactly. And then the other thing that you're doing when we're doing that is you are fostering agency. And we know that classrooms that lead with agency, the, the level of engagement in those environments is, is exponential, right? There's so much incredible research that shows that, and yet we are often back to that wicked problem. The system that we're functioning in often does not let us either incorporate or honor or celebrate agency in ways that, as a practitioner on the ground, we know is just gonna make it all better. So by sort of s- shifting that narrative again, it's that journey we talked about earlier, let's shift the narrative a little bit so that you can in fact pull those things in even under the constraints that you have. What might it look like? It could be small. Doesn't have to be huge. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, that makes me think of, you know, the intertwined nature of all this stuff, too. Right. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Mm-hmm. Y- Lindsay Lyons: you started at the top of the episode really talking about how wicked problems have no like one clear solution, and we have to have- Mm-hmm. Right? I think about adaptive challenges all the time. We're talking about the community members in that community working to offer the solution. Correct. And so how are we not leveraging the brilliance of the students and the teachers in these educational systems to adjust the system? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Right. Lindsay Lyons: Mm-hmm. And how do we design that system to be more, you know, offer more agency, provide more opportunities for agency? Is there any insight you have around how we do o- offer opportunities to kind of co-construct or, or collaborate to find those solutions and ways forward? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah. Well, I get to ask this question a lot as well, and what I could tell you is that every opportunity that you get as an educator to sit down and co-design with your students, take it, right? I mean, it can be as simple as, "Hey, you know, we need..." I'm just gonna choose a very generic, we study the solar system K through 20, right? Um, it comes up over and over again, right? So whatever, whatever area I have to touch, where- wherever we are in that progression of my students, high school students, middle school students, elementary students, we're looking at that. You know, sit down and start with a simple question to your students, right, that is related to that lesson or that unit that I have to teach, and ask them what they know. And if it's crickets that you get, which sometimes it is, and it's not really because they don't know. We all know that. It's because they don't want to say, right, oftentimes, especially as our kiddos get a little bit older. Um, and so, you know, as we think about some of those things, you know, if we just step back and ask what we know, and when we don't know, just grab one of the things we have to touch on and say, "Okay, we have to learn about this. How would you propose we get there?" That's agency, right? And it doesn't t- you know, have to stray you too far. Other educators who are really, really comfortable with that co-design, man, it's as simple as here's the standard I have to hit, here's the topic we're trying to explore, here's how, you know, it's going to play a role in our bigger universal sort of queries that we're engaged in with it, whatever the topic or subject area happens to be. How are we gonna get there? What do you wanna demonstrate? What are you gonna show me? What do you wanna learn? And then, you know, those, those students are y- they're really learner-centered, right? They're student-directed in their entirety, and that's really, really freeing. But we have to scaffold not just our students, but we have to scaffold ourselves, and we have to scaffold our community to be willing to take and embrace that type of instruction Lindsay Lyons: For sure, right? 'Cause it's, it's totally a different way of teaching than many educators themselves were taught, right? So there's a shift. Correct. Correct. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: Right. And I'm also thinking about all the work, uh, that I've been doing with history teachers in an inquiry pedagogy around- Yep ... like, how do you, when you launch a question or an inquiry cycle, and you say, "Okay, what questions do you have?" And then there's crickets, right? To your point- Right. Mm-hmm ... sometimes it is just, "I've never been asked, so I'm, I'm nervous to even say, 'cause that's not a typical question I get." Right. Right. But also, how are we scaffolding, to your point, right, of can we connect to background information? Can we leverage the experience that's already in the room, and can we expand- Dr. Annalies Corbin: Right. Right ... Lindsay Lyons: our connection, our connections. Yeah. So I think there's so much pedagogical, like, scaffolding that we can do as teachers to present that to students, but it's the possibility that you're painting is very exciting, that it happens. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Sure. Lindsay Lyons: People are doing it. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah. And, you know, there's all kinds of strategies, right, which is a completely different conversation. But there's all kinds of strategies to get students to engage in conversation, right? So if you've got a room of crickets, right, there's lots of things that you can do to sort of change that dynamic. And if you use those tools on a regular basis, your students will just get used to this is how this is gonna work, and we're going to engage, right? Because the individual teacher is not gonna let up until suddenly there's, there's a room filled with, you know, amazing conversation. So again, those are those little scaffolded opportunities, but they grow agency. Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. And I think another related thing, I think, is the kind of culture of appropriate levels of challenge, and what we do- Mm-hmm to coach resiliency in classes. Yeah. Right? Because if I'm a leader that says, "Okay, I want all of my teachers to make sure there's student-led conversations- Right ... and, you know, the students have all this agency," and then there's this challenge they're confronted with. The go-to for my classroom was always like, "Miss, Miss," you know? And I would have to run over and support. Right. And then I realized that's not helpful. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. We can coach resiliency. So can you tell us a little bit about, about that, about how that works or what we can do to, to grow resilience or how that's connected to what we've been talking about? Dr. Annalies Corbin: You know, again, I think the, the, the scaffolding is really important, right? And I also think that the other, the other thing is making sure that we know who our learners are. That's part of agency, but it's also part of that cultural responsiveness, um, that as an educator we also wanna roll in. Um, you know, and so- Some of that is we have to scaffold the collective set of experiences. It's not so-- You know, it's not scaffolding one thing or another. It's not, you know, transitioning my classroom to be entirely problem-based pedagogy, for example, right? That's big. That's a huge, huge lift, right? Especially if all I do all the time is nothing but wicked problems. That's, that's a lot. It can be overwhelming for everybody involved. So I think that the, the, the, the really key is to say, "We're gonna take this in bite size." Is we're gonna start by knowing who am I learned... Who's in this class? Who's, who's sitting in front of me? Who am I trying, um, to be that facilitator of learning for? Um, and if I understand who's, who's in here with me, right, then we can start to build the small building blocks that will lead to resilience. But if we just l- l- leap in, you know, o- one big thing, too many, it, it'll crash and burn really hard. I, I always tell people, you know, I-- Folks who, who hear me speak frequently, they, they know the different pieces and parts even that I'm connecting here because I, I feel so strongly about them. I call them the five Kevlar threads. Um, you know, and these, these pieces and parts. And I tell folks, "If you're not doing these things automatically in your classroom, it's just not innate for you, don't try to do them all at once. You'll drown. Your kids will drown." Um, and so, you know, if you wanna build resilience, start with the small pieces that you can just do right out of the gate. And practice. Just do it often Lindsay Lyons: Can you tell us more about those, those threads that you just referenced? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah. So the five Kevlar threads. Uh, that's t- that's tied to, um, I have a book called, um, Hacking School: uh, Five Strategies to Link Learning to Life. And, and all that that really is is, like, about 25 years of going and working with really, really incredible schools or teachers or programs around the world, and just trying to understand the ones that are really, really phenomenal. Something happens. Either they sustain, they're around 10 years or so later, and they just keep going, and they get better and better. But most really amazing innovations tend to die pretty quickly, and that happens for a variety of real and tangible reasons, but I was really curious about the ones that, that really, really stick. Are there some commonalities? Are there some common threads? And what I found is that the ones that really last a long time, they have, they all have these five things. They have other things because they're all locally derived, right? They're, they're, they are about the community in which they're, they're functioning, but they have these five. So the first one is agency, right? That it is, uh, agency led. The second is that they are culturally relevant or responsive, whichever term you prefer to use. But basically, it's, I know, I know who my community is. I know who my kids are. My kids know who I am, right? We have this mutual respect about the humans in the middle, right? So I'm gonna give you autonomy, agency. I'm gonna help you build resilience and grit and all of those pieces and parts, but I'm also have a deep understanding of who you are, and you understand me, right? Um, and the things that we're gonna teach, we're gonna find a way collectively to make them relevant to you And then the third one is mastery. That idea of competency. We're gonna let go of that, that old school traditional seat time and say, "Hey, you know, if, if Annalise needs, you know, uh, extra time to understand this concept, then I'm gonna honor her need to dig a little bit deeper to understand." So mastery, which is defined lots of different ways too, most of these terms are. Um, the fourth one then for us is transdisciplinary. Uh, transdisciplinary teaching and learning, and that's just the idea of stop teaching in silos, right? That's not how the world works. It is one of the things that students today are pushing against the most, even if it's not articulated. We're not having it in traditional education conversation necessarily. But it is the thing when you actually sit down and do a lot of research with the students, with the learners, you hear them. They don't use that term, of course, but what they'll tell you is, "I don't understand what this has to do with me. The world doesn't look like this." And that's exactly what they mean, right? We don't go to math class and then to learn math, right? Solely for... I mean, that's not what the world looks like, and then somebody rings a bell, and I move on to something else. That's not authentic in any way, shape, or form. And then the fifth one for us is problem-based, and that gets to that wicked problem sort of structure. And it's that idea that if we could take all of that and we can roll it into a very applied, hands-on, deep opportunity to spend time with something, that it's gonna be meaningful because it will address all those other four things we just talked about, and it will. Um, and so there is a progression if folks don't have those elements in that we recommend, but that's just what I've seen over many years. And it was just really that realization that the things that stick, they have all five, and they're doing them. It's part of their DNA. It's not, "Oh, I forgot about mastery today." Lindsay Lyons: Wow, okay. Those are so good and comprehensive and connected to so many things that we talk about on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, is there, like, a particular one that is most challenging for folks? Or is there a challenge in general that as people are trying to do this work that you're- Mm-hmm ... noticing, "Oh, this one's, this one's big"? And then what do you tell them when- Yeah ... you notice that? Dr. Annalies Corbin: It, that's an interesting question because what, what educators will tell you who are like, "I really wanna do this, but I don't know where to start," it's fascinating. They'll tell you, "Oh, I can't do mastery. W- uh, you know, we're not allowed to do that. It's not acceptable here. You know, we still issue grades in the traditional sense." And so the, the internal perception is that mastery is the hardest because it requires a policy change, but that's not actually true. Yes, comprehensive mastery will more than likely in most places require some type of policy shift. But in your individual classroom, you could do mastery, you can be mastery-based in your classroom and still give a grade, right? So, so that's one of those disconnects that I see a lot. The one that's truly probably the hardest at implementation is transdisciplinary, and that's a systems problem. Um, educators will often be more than happy to embrace that. I find that it gets more difficult as you move up in the curriculum, so the closer you get to high school, because we love our silos in high school. We love them. I cherish it. You know, I'm the science teacher. I'm the English teacher. Don't you dare touch my content. And that's a huge, um... it's a mistake, and it's a disconnect, right? But that's a structural thing, right? We've built that. We've created that haves have the nots, wills will not sort of ecosystem, and we're, we're, um, we're continuing it to our own detriment, honestly, because that's not saying that there's not value in all of those individual topics or content at all. That's not the case. What we're saying is do them together, right? You know, why don't you have an integrated, you know, science and social studies or science and ELA? Teach them together. The minute you do that, it changes everything, and it, it saves a ton of money at a systems level, right, when you do that. It's super, super more cost-effective too. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, there's so, there's so much possibility here. Yeah. And I know that schools are, some schools are doing this too- Yes, Dr. Annalies Corbin: yeah ... Lindsay Lyons: that it is viable, and it's just- Yes, Dr. Annalies Corbin: yes ... Lindsay Lyons: we are stuck so much in how we've always done things, it's hard to break out. Mm-hmm. And, and you mentioned that if, if people didn't have, uh, these five elements, that you said that you recommend things to, to do- Mm-hmm like a progression. I'm not sure if that's, uh, at, at the start, or that's to kind of counter not having any one of those. Is that, like, what they would do immediately to get started? Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah. I mean, basically, you know, I have educators ask me all the time, "Okay, I wanna make this shift, but I don't even know where to start." And I'll, I will tell them, "We're gonna start with agency." Mm-hmm. You know, I wrote them in a particular order in the book for a reason. You know, if you don't do these things, just start, start at the beginning, and just work your way through, because they truly do build on each other, right? Agency says, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you cho- you know, voice and choice. We often talk about it that way. It's, it's more than that, obviously, but that's, that's the phrasing that lots of folks are familiar with. Just start right there, because suddenly now I've empowered an individual. And then the next thing is I'm gonna understand who that individual is and why that's powerful to them, right? And so that gets you into that sort of cultural relevancy, if you will. And so there is a progression to it, so if you're not doing it, just start, start working your way down, right? Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I love just the tangible nature of, you know, get to know the pe- your people, right? Mm-hmm. So if you're a teacher, get to know your students. I also love the, um, I used to work for a network that talked about one learning model for all, so the same things teachers do with students, leaders can do with teachers- Mm-hmm ... and teachers can do with one another. Right, Dr. Annalies Corbin: right. Lindsay Lyons: So this idea of, like, leaders get to know your teachers, right? And it's the whole- Dr. Annalies Corbin: Exactly, exactly. Well, you know, for years I, I used to, and I, I do it every once in a while, I still get asked to do it, but y- I don't, I don't see it on the same scale anymore. But I used to do this program, I called it Cultural Baggage. I'm an anthropologist and an educator, right? So it's my background. And so I used to do, do this program, and we would do it with kids, we would do it in the summer, or we would do it during the academic year. And several times over the years, I had, uh, either a building or a whole district say, "Hey, would you come and run Cultural Baggage program with us? We wanna do it at the beginning of the year. We wanna do it as just part of our onb- you know, our, our launching of the new year with, with our teachers." And I would go into these places, and the first thing that I quickly discovered is teachers didn't know each other's names. Right? So if I only know you, right, as Ms. Lyons or Ms. Corbin or Mr. Smith or whatever, and that's what the expectation is that the kids call their teacher, fine, whatever works, right? But I have no idea who you are, then how can I possibly know who my learners are? I just have never bothered, and you've been teaching across the hall from me. But it was remarkable how many teachers didn't know the first names of the other teachers in their own buildings, much less across a district. And I said, "This is a systemic problem It's things like that, right? It's things like that. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. That blows my mind a little bit, but that, I could see how that could happen with- Yeah the mind that you do. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Mm-hmm. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Okay. So we have talked about so many things. Thank you so much for all of the, the wisdom that you- Sure ... brought, like big picture as well as tangible, like, what can I do today? Love that. Yeah. Um, I am curious, especially because you're a researcher, I bet you are actively just learning lots of things. Mm-hmm. So what is something that you have been learning about lately? So I know you said you published your book. You're just starting to- Mm-hmm ... like bring all this- Yeah ... research together. It could be related to this. It could also be not related to work at all, it's just something you're learning about. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Yeah, so I mean, some of the things that... So I love technology, love technology, right? I- it's one of those things. I love the tools. I love the application. I love trying to understand, A, how does it work? How could I use it for something it wasn't designed for? Um, and so of course, you know, there's so many conversations right now around AI, especially in schools. And so one of the things, so I am trying them all, like everything, and not just like tangible, I'm gonna try it, but I'm gonna use it deeply and understand what I can do with it and what I can't do with it. Um, because I think that's really, really important, you know, in a space where, you know, educators and, a- and administrators are saying, "We don't even know what to do with this thing. We, we believe that it's about to cause this sort of rampant dysfunction somehow." And I think about it, you know, in, again, that researcher brain, I think back to when the internet showed up. Well, we had the exact same conversation then that we're having now. It was, "Oh my gosh, you know, students aren't gonna go to the library anymore. They can look anything up online. It's gonna be rampant cheating. It's gonna be," you know, so on and so forth. And we have to approach all of these things with great caution, absolutely, but we also have to approach these things with an understanding of what it actually is, right? And the world is changing, and our kids are deeply enmeshed, deeply enmeshed. So we need to understand that from their perspective. So for me, like, that's one of the things that I'm, that, uh, you know, I'm spending a lot of time just trying to understand and learn, and I love to learn, so. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. I think there are a lot of people grappling with that as of the time. Oh, Dr. Annalies Corbin: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Okay, so people are gonna want to maybe get your book, connect with you- Mm-hmm ... learn more about you. Where can people go to do that? Dr. Annalies Corbin: So the easiest way to get information is gonna be at pastfoundation.org, P-A-S-T foundation.org. Um, and you can go there, and you can get information about me. You can get information about the things that we do, um, uh, about, about the book Hacking School: 5 Strategies to Link Learning to Life. You can also get that at, you know, Barnes & Noble or Amazon, wherever you, you wanna buy books. Um, but we also have a whole, um, asynchronous, um, as well as, um, some, some non-online options around. Like, if you wanna do a deep dive into some of those, those pieces and parts as an individual educator, you can do that. You can we- you can join our research community, um, our community of practice that we- We have around all the Hacking School ecosystem. Um, you can, we can come, you know, to your school or your district. Um, we engage very deeply in lots of different ways, um, across the educational spectrum. So just reach out. Um, you can find me anywhere @AnaliseCorbin on pretty much all the different social channels if you're so inclined, so . Awesome. Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Corbin, thank you so much for today. Really appreciate your time in this conversation. Dr. Annalies Corbin: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. 
Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
In this solo episode, host Lindsay explores change leadership theories and their implications for educational settings, including staff discourse around change initiatives. She focuses on how these strategies support transformative growth towards educational equity and justice.
Lindsay draws on her work experience with the Department of Education in Massachusetts to support turnaround schools that are designated for support, as well as her scholarship background through her PhD research in leadership and change. Why? Change leadership is critical in any strategic planning conversation, especially for schools with turnaround status. Understanding change leadership theories and practices can enable schools to navigate complex challenges while fostering equity and justice. What? Lindsay draws on her 2018 PhD dissertation to compile this curated list of education-related change theories that can support educators in your unique context. You can access her entire published thesis here, in which these four frameworks are expanded on in pages 36-41. Noting that adaptive leadership is an important framework embedded into the following — and expanded on in podcast episode 267 — these are four frameworks that help educators navigate change leadership.
Drawing on these theories — each of which are expanded on in the episode — Lindsay concludes that there are three critical components that any leader needs for effective change leadership:
Key Takeaway Discourse is the tool we use to move from dialogue and discussion to decision-making. To facilitate this type of discourse and live out leadership theories, we should build out the culture and grow relationships, dive into hard conversation, seek out different viewpoints, and stay focused on shared values. To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Discourse Analysis Framework with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 265 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Welcome back to another episode of the Time for Teachership podcast. This is episode 265, and today we're talking about change leadership theories and the implications for staff discourse around change initiatives. For context, my work with the Department of Education in Massachusetts, called DESE, with Turnaround Schools, uh, which are designated for support, um, and just my background in strategic planning, my scholarship background in leadership and change. My doctorate comes out of Antioch University, which focuses on leadership and change across many disciplines. Obviously, mine was education. Um, really wanna kind of think about how a theory of change has been important for schools and strategic planning, particularly those in Turnaround status. And what I'm hoping to do is bring you a curated list of education-relevant change leadership theories to support that transformational growth that you're pursuing in your context, um, towards equ- educational equity and justice. So here we go. Let's take a look at some frameworks I'll name that what I'm doing is actually reading a lot of times, which sounds silly, but I, I think is hopefully better than reinventing the wheel here. From my published dissertation, so that's a 2018 publication that you can find online. I will link to it in the blog post for this episode, located at lindsaybethlyons.com/blog/265. And really, I'm reading from that literature review chapter, pages 36 through 41. If you're at all interested in finding those resources, there's of course, uh, citations at the end that you can go dig deeper into it. We are going to talk about the following frameworks today: social justice leadership, inclusive leadership, which is also connected to relational leadership, positive leadership, and shared leadership. I also talk a lot about adaptive leadership. There's actually another episode coming about adaptive leadership, kind of change leadership connected and discourse connected as well. That's gonna be Episode 267. So we won't touch on adaptive leadership quite as much here, but know that it is integral and, and kind of embedded in a lot of these, and very, um, complementary. There we go. Okay. So first, social justice leadership. The theory of social justice leadership posits leaders strive to deepen their awareness of societal injustice and act to eliminate it. So Preskill and Brookfield are two scholars here in this, uh, leadership theory. They have published a couple different books that are helpful, one, Learning as a Way of Leading, and I cannot remember the other one, but it's about discussion and teaching. And so they named supporting the growth of others as one of the tenets of social justice leadership. And so while leaders are expected to grow, so too are the members. This is relevant for, uh, students as well as staff. They point out social justice leaders are often, um, open to the contributions of others. They reflect critically on their own practice, as well as ideas of collective leadership, learning democracy, and creating community. The, quote, "Care and concern for vulnerable, marginalized, disenfranchised, and disadvantaged populations," end quote, is a priority for social justice leaders. This comes from Noble, published in 2015. And Noble insists that leaders in their communities have to examine the underlying issues of social problems. So think root cause analysis here, very popular in strategic planning initiatives. And she says to do this effectively, social justice leaders need to understand really important terms, so things like privilege, oppression, cultural salience, intersectionality, critical consciousness, and social equity. So there needs to be kind of a building of that knowledge. She also says, um, I'm sorry, Preskill and Brookfield say that social justice leadership involves analyzing institutions, so we're not just at the individual level. We have to understand those institutions and analyze those. But to do this, leaders have to examine the dynamics of power and privilege and ask what stories are not being told in order to obtain a deeper understanding of the situation. They posit social justice leadership is like Gramsci's notion of an organic intellectual, in that leaders are members of an oppressed group that work to empower their community. So thinking a lot about this dissertation was written for student leadership, but also thinking about teacher leadership, family leadership. So having that shared leadership connection where everyone has the potential work of a leader. And so Gramsci's work stems from Marx, so that work is in direct response to the unequal distribution of resources and power within a capitalist society. And so the most important component of social justice leadership really is the redistribution of power. Uh, George Theo Harris actually talks about how leadership is-- that's not focused on and successful at creating more just and equitable schools for marginalized students is indeed not good leadership. So this is really, um, the, the moral compass here. Uh, Brookfield and Preskill I wanted to also name. They say that the essence of dialogue, which we're gonna connect to at the end here, is entering a conversation in which ideas will be questioned and explored with a willingness to change one's mind. They claim, quote, "Discussion and democracy are inseparable because both have the same root purpose: to nurture and promote human growth." End quote. I absolutely love this. Um, this is, you know, I think at the heart of all that we do here on the podcast, but I think a lot of your central missions are social justice oriented. So I really wanted to name that those big higher level kind of like critiquing systems of power, that is part of a leadership theory. Embed that in your theory of change if that feels helpful to you. I imagine it does to anyone who's engaging with this podcast. All right, next piece. So we have, uh, inclusive leadership. There's several theorists around here. I draw a lot on Lisa Boysen, who is the, uh, one of my prof- was one of my professors at Antioch University, and so she defines inclusive leadership as an ongoing cycle of learning through collaborative and respectful relational practice that enables individuals and collectives to be fully part of the whole, such that they are directed, aligned, and committed towards shared outcomes for the common good of all, while retaining a sense of authenticity and uniqueness. And that's that direct quote and definition. Um, Pless and Mack are two other scholars in this space, and they say, you know, inclusive leadership is built on a foundation of recognizing difference and requires reciprocal understanding, standpoint plurality, which is really like we value diverse perspectives, knowledge, and experiences. These are actually critical for understanding society and what's going on, and the particularly folks at the margins are the ones to offer those unique insights that are going to help us understand collectively what is going on and what is the path forward. So again, hearkening to that shared leadership, like we can figure out this thing together, which is what adaptive leadership says, right? It says these big, sticky, complex problems, you can't solve those with one leader saying, "This is what we're doing." It has to be a group effort. Um, back to Pless and Mack's, uh, things that are required for inclusive leadership. They say also, uh, it has to be mutually enabling, the, the foundation. Um, there has to be trust, integrity, and an overarching inter- intercultural moral point of view that is centered on democracy, empathy, and moral awareness. So again, audience members, I believe that this is you, right? You center democracy, empathy, and kind of this moral compass that is really critical for this type of leadership. Um, Boysen notes that inclusive leadership involves collaboratively co-constructing an organizational value frame. Do we have shared values? Many of us do. And leveraging diversity so everyone can be comfortably him or her, or I would add them, theirselves. In schools, um, Ryan, another publication and author, um, asserts policies should promote inclusion, and the process to make school policies should be inclusive, again, hearkening to shared leadership. This concept of inclusive leadership is highly relational in nature, and so therefore, relational leadership theories come into play as well. Relational leadership posits that growth happens in connection with others. This is a concept from Jean Baker Miller. A lot of these names, just noting, I have only ever read them and I've not heard them spoken, so I'm hoping I'm pronouncing everyone's name correctly, um, which posits this idea of growth and connection, posits growth occurs through relationships with others. Like, that's actually how we grow. So she underscores growth is rooted in mutuality and empowerment, and if it's successful, actually, members are gonna reap these five benefits, which I love: zest, empowered action, increased self-esteem, new knowledge, and a desire for more connection. So it is, like, fulfilling itself, which is super, super cool. Fletcher, who writes about this a lot, um, talks about dialogue, uh, where... Excuse me. Cunliffe and Erickson talk about dialogue whereby participants recognize and work through difference. Fletcher talks about how we have to have kind of this willingness to learn, or in relational leadership, we demonstrate a rel- a willingness to learn from others, and that is actually gonna en- enhance, as a leader, our relational capital. So yeah, this is really similar to adaptive leadership, where it's, it's really about the process more than the final destination. Like, how do we engage with everyone? Um, relational leadership, again, adopts that concept of shared leadership, where we have power with rather than power over. We'll talk about that a little bit, um, later on in the episode. So basically, this idea of inclusive and relational leadership are kind of ways of being in the world with relational integrity, relational mindfulness, and relational agility, and that comes from Cunliffe and Erickson. Additionally, Beck, another author in the space, contends remaining in caring relationships is actually one of the three activities of care after hearing others' perspectives and responding to the new insights gained. So we wanna deeply listen, we wanna respond to what we learn, and we need to maintain those caring relationships. Really critical, particularly during change leadership. Okay, let's go to positive leadership. Cameron is one of the leaders in this field. So they describe positive leadership as having three orientations: positively deviant performance, so we look for what is good. Where is the positive deviant? Not working in most places, well where is it working and how is that happening, right? And let's learn from that. Affirmative bias, which is a focus on strengths rather than deficits, and facilitating the best of the human condition. So he wrote about four strategies to promote positive leadership. First, a positive climate is full of compassion, forgiveness, and gratitude. So we have to kind of build that up. Positive relationships, uh, according to Dutton and Regan, are a source of, quote, "enrichment, vitality, and learning." End quote. Cameron noted studies of successful organizations indicate high-performing organizations employ positive communication. And this harkens back to some marriage research , I believe, of making five positive statements for every one negative statement, and balancing the ratio of inquiry and advocacy statements. So think about how many times we say, "This is my point of view," right? We actually have to make sure that to be, um, in this positive organization or high-performing organization, we have to balance the number of times we ask a question and take an inquiry stance with the amount of times we say, "Hey, I think this is what we should do," or, "Here's my thought," right? I'm advocating for something. Um, also needs to be in balance other-focused and self-focused statements. So if we're always saying me, me, me or I, I, I, we need to balance that out with more other-focused language. Additionally, um, they found that members were more engaged and exchanged more information when communication was positive. So this is, just to clarify, this is not that Pollyanna, everything is good, we always have to be having fun. This is that true balance, um, of, of the, you know, inquiry and the advocacy. It is thinking about compassion, forgiveness, gratitude. That means sometimes things are hard, but we are holding onto this. We are holding onto what is working. We are strengths-based more than we are deficit-based. That does not mean that we don't confront challenges or name the challenges. We have to, right? But I just wanna clarify that this is not just like rah-rah all the time. That is not what this theory is about. Um, strategies for delivering feedback include, and I love this, this comes from Laura Morgan Roberts, who was also one of my professors, um, the reflected best self. So this is where a person asks 20 people to share stories of when they remember them at their best. So cool. I mean, just that activity of thinking about asking 20 people, w- h- when, "Remember me when I was at my best and tell me that story." So cool. Very strengths-based, right? And you could do that for your staff. You could do that with students. You could do that with a lot of people. Um, and supportive communication is another strategy for delivering feedback in which the critical feedback is given in a way that describes behavior and suggests solutions without judgment. That comes from Rogers. Finally, positive meaning is integral to organizational success. So Cameron insisted the purpose of the organization should actually be to build a supportive community and improve the wellbeing of as many people as possible. The related field of positive change contributes additional strategies for organizational and personal growth, like appreciative inquiry. So again, trying to find that positive deviance, wondering what's going well. Um, this is from, uh, Cooperrider and Sri- Srivastava, Srivastava, excuse me. And the awesome, like, reframe of SWOT analysis, so where we have strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, becomes SOAR, uh, strengths, opportunities, aspirations, results. Love that. Love that shift. So if you are doing a SWOT analysis in your strategic planning, try a SOAR analysis instead and see what happens. Appreciative inquiry. Um, so basically building on the strengths of the organizations to further develop. Okay, that brings us to our final leadership theory, which is shared leadership. So the concept of shared leadership first appeared in the writings of Mary Parker Follett. Follett? I'm not sure. Anyways, it's quite interesting to me that she is only cited one time in Jackson and Perry's seemingly comprehensive leadership book published in 2011. Aside from a quick mention of ancient Rome, Jackson and Perry referenced James MacGregor Burns as the oldest citation relating to a shared process of leadership. In 1978, Burns wrote, "The leadership approach tends often unconsciously to be elitist. It projects heroic figures against the shadowy background of drab, powerless masses." End quote. While his critique of the stark imbalance of power inherent in traditional leadership certainly contributed to the growth of collective leadership and shared leadership, Follett was writing about the value of sharing power with followers over half a century earlier. So this misattribution may be a sign of the perpetual mental model that men are leadership experts, or perhaps it's a disdain for, quote, "women's work", seeing as Follett's largest contributions were geared toward community organizations rather than the management of large corporations. It's probably a combination of the two. In Follett's book in 1924 called Creative Experience, she addressed conceptions of power and the process of leadership and decision-making. She started by asserting, quote, "Genuine power is not coercive control, but co-active control. Coercive power is the curse of the universe. Co-active power, the enrichment and advancement of every human soul." End quote. Falla insisted the best way to address conflict is through what she called creative integration she said, quote, "The object is not to do away with differences, but to do away with muddle." So let's get clear, right? She argued that conflict is necessary to identifying various stakeholders' desires. Throughout the book, she reiterated, quote, "The experience of all is necessary to democracy." End quote. She insisted on the benefits of integration rather than compromise, noting integration has the ability to reduce loss and increase gain for everybody, as no one is giving up what they desire. And this is huge when we're gonna note adaptive leadership's role here, too. They talk a lot about resistance as loss. If you're facing a lot of resistance from some sort of initiative or new policy, there may be loss there, and we have to name that and address it and confront that as full human beings, right? And she's saying that actually, if we wanna just reduce the feelings of loss, we want integration rather than compromise. I think this is why I've been so interested in discourse lately and ways to get away from the binary, like it has to be this or this, right? No, what can ... What is a new path forward? And that's kind of what she's talking about here. Creative integration requires imagination, right? She says that creative integration begins with the organization's vision, and the process is of the utmost importance, so again, process over product. In what she deems to be the most important sentence of the book, she insisted opportunities, quote, "Should be provided for integration to take place normally." End quote. So this should not just be for strategic planning. It should be in how we live out school and how we do leadership. Follett warned, quote, "The suggestion box is not a democratic device, although often so-called. Democracy does not register various opinions. It is an attempt to create unity." End quote. She insisted diverse stakeholders come together to cooperatively gather and analyze information, relate the information to each person's life, and create new ideas that meet all stakeholders' desires. Love it. All individuals must contribute to the process, so then, quote, "We cannot stand outside and judge the purpose of the state. We ourselves become part of that purpose." End quote. Right? If you embed stakeholders in the creation of the policy or the way forward, we are a team now. We can't stand outside and criticize it. I love that point she makes. She adds, "Stakeholders have a duty to constantly develop and grow." She believed a great leader is a true representative and emphasized, quote, "We should send our representatives not to win a victory but to come to some agreement on the basis of an enlarged understanding on both sides." End quote. If you've been listening to me talk about discourse lately, this is exactly what all the discourse scholars say. The purpose of discourse is that we come together to enlarge our understanding, to deepen our thinking, to think something new that we could not have thought about alone. So herein lies the power of her term power with, which she used to refer to the democratic power generated through freeing each other of static beliefs to work collaboratively to integrate individual desires and create benefiting all parties She stated the concept of power with, quote, "Takes time, and education, and training to develop. It involves a process, and a slow process. It is concerned with neither granting power nor grabbing power, but with evolving power. Opportunity must be given for this process." End quote. She once again refuted the notion of zero-sum power when she stated, quote, "First, by pooling power, we are not giving it up. And secondly, the power produced by relationship is a qualitative, not a quantitative thing." End quote. Gosh, she's brilliant. While she admitted integration is more difficult than simply choosing a side, she wrote in her conclusion that confronting and integrating desires, quote, "Means a freeing for both sides, an increased total power or increased capacity in the world." End quote. Shared leadership by nature promotes flat organizations as better than hierarchical ones. Jackson and Perry discussed shared leadership within their chapter on critical leadership perspectives, identifying the model as one whose purpose is to disrupt traditional power structures. Reister et al. and Theo Harris argue that principals need the skills to empower staff through setting up collaborative and shared decision-making structures that allow sta- staff time and space to craft their practice. A shared leadership model, quote, "Rejects the distinction between leaders and followers." That's from Jackson and Perry. Jackson and Perry noted there is a continuum of shared leadership that extends on the, quote, "Radical end" to Jeffrey Neilson's idealized model of, quote, "Peer-based communities", and Carson, Tesluk, and Morone determine three attributes of teams that facilitate the development of shared leadership. One, members share a commitment to a common goal. Two, they receive emotional support from one another. And three, they feel their individual voices are valued. So important in a class as well as a staff. Their review noted shared leadership can lead to positive results. They, quote, "Found that teams relying on multiple members for leadership performed better than those in which internal leadership was relatively scarce." End quote. And additionally, they wrote, quote, "When team members feel recognized and supported within their team," like social support, "they are more willing to share responsibility, cooperate, and commit to the team's collective goals." End quote. Right? So that recognition, that support from their team, that social support is so critical. If we have it, people are more willing to share the responsibility of pursuing the goal, cooperate with others, and commit to the goal itself. That is so huge So in synthesis, what I did in my dissertation was say, "Hey, these are three competencies that after reading through all of that stuff, I think student leaders should have." And I would also argue teachers and family leaders and administrative leaders, all leaders should have. And these are, three things are critical awareness, inclusivity, and positivity. So critical awareness I defined as reflecting on, understanding, and questioning positive and negative attributes of oneself and society in order to foster equity and growth. Inclusivity closely mirrors Boyton's definition, which is enabling all members to fully participate and learn from each other. And positivity, which is applying a strengths-based lens to facilitate growth and enable flourishing. Absolutely love that word, flourishing. Now, how is this all connected to discourse? Well, discourse really is the place where we grapple with all of this stuff and do the shared leadership. Like, shared leadership was my entry into this, and now discourse is kind of like the how. Okay, we're all together at the table, now how do we actually talk about this stuff and move from dialogue to discussion to decision-making together? 'Cause that is a process, right? You can't just put everybody in a room and then say go, which is what I probably thought like eight years ago when I started this journey. So connecting to discourse, again, Brookfield and Preskill from Social Justice Leadership say that discourse helps learners explore the diversity of perspectives, increases awareness of and tolerance for ambiguity or complexity, right? How intolerant are we as a society of ambiguity and complexity? I would say very intolerant right now. We wanna increase our tolerance for that. It also shows respect for learner voices and experiences, affirms learners as co-creators of knowledge, leads to transformation, and requires humility. You'll see a lot of or hear a lot of learning language in there, um, that learner language used to be students, and I tried to shift that language to think about, like, learners in general So that's staff, that could also be students. The goal of discourse, uh, makes me think of this Bella et al 1991 publication, where they say democracy means paying attention. I love that. Uh, they also talk about how really it's being aware of the whole conversation. So I just love this idea of democracy means paying attention. Whoa. Um, the context, uh, I think that I have in my head too, right, is one of equity and social justice, where Bell Hooks talks about, in her 1994 publication, she talks about how, you know, the privileged students in a class know that their opinions count, right? They might be the frequent talkers, right? They believe that they have a right to say whatever. Working class students are told not to speak, right? And she's saying you need to be aware of that dynamic because we need to disrupt it. And she says, you know, we really need to treat students as whole human beings. That's her quote, "whole human beings." Right? So I think the same goes for staff. We treat them as whole human beings, right? We treat people in general as whole human beings, and we recognize the power dynamics at play. Um, Cornel West has talked about, uh, the barrier of t- to dialogue, which is that he says, "Dialogue is lost due to obsession with power." Right? So if we are obsessed with power, and I mean even in a smaller sense, thinking about, not smaller sense, but different sense, thinking about the teacher who doesn't wanna let c- c- control go, right? I don't wanna let go of control 'cause then my class is gonna get out of whack and, like, n- I'll never be able to regain order or calm, right? I mean, one, that's like a very compliance-centered philosophy, but also, um, like that fear, right, is going to actually inhibit true dialogue, which is an interesting thing to think about. Similarly, at the leadership level. Okay. So now what do you do? Let's wrap this up. Let's think about what are the go-to steps. So action steps to facilitate this type of discourse and live out these leadership theories: One, we gotta build the culture. So build and continue to grow relationships. This connects to our relational leadership concept, specifically that idea, uh, from Jean Baker Miller, the growth in connection. We have to have those foundational relationships. We can't just dive into a hard conversation. Two, we need to prompt the seeking out and sharing of different viewpoints. I think of James Nottingham's work, and we had a podcast episode with him earlier. Um, but thinking about that idea of inclusive leadership as well, is that we need those different viewpoints, right? Folks at the margins are gonna have a unique experience that's valuable for everyone to understand the whole thing, the what's going on, what's the way forward, right? We need that thinking, and so we need to prompt people. I'm thinking also of Maria Nichols' idea around discourse, um, where she talks about how we need to value and cultivate the valuing of diverse perspectives. We need to think about how our thinking has shifted, and if it-- we've realized that it hasn't, then we need to make sure that we are going out and finding new perspectives to, to deepen it. A positive communication ratio of five to one, that comes from the positive leadership theories. Appreciative inquiry, also coming from positive leadership theory. So we need to make sure that our, uh, questioning stance, right, our seeking out of the positive deviance is present when we're doing all of these analyses of, of what's happening currently and where we go next. We need to make sure that we lay the discourse foundation. I've talked before about baseline understandings, um, which brilliant guests on the pod have shared, and shared team values. If you don't have them, we should have them, right? So baseline understandings being like, "Here's what we agree to, and here's what is not up for debate because we believe X," you know, whatever X is. Um, this aligns to inclusive leadership's moral grounding, I think. Remember, that was democracy, empathy, and moral awareness were key components of inclusive leadership. So if that's true for you, I think that's the move, is to make sure that you agree on your shared team values and come up with some baseline understandings, right? We need the shared goal. That was present in many of these leadership theories, and we can't just, like, have a goal that a couple people contribute to. We have to truly all believe in the goal and co-create the way that we get to the goal, right? The baseline understandings, the shared values, the team agreements for discussion. We need to build critical consciousness and knowledge of systems, power, oppression, to be able to analyze them, right? Thinking about that social justice leadership framework. We can either co-create or select together a framework that exists or maybe, like, a lenses chart of, you know, what are these different lenses or ways of thinking? What are these constructs that we need to learn and build awareness of, um, and use when making decisions and having discourse and dialogue We need purposeful prompts and protocols. So there's so much. If you, if you go back to last, I think last July, 2025, I think July, there were so many leaders on talking about how to facilitate staff meetings and different protocols for different purposes that align with, you know, the various types of discourse. So dialogue, discussion, decision-making. They are brilliant. I would check them out, return there. Um, but we have to know, are we in dialogue where we're seeking to understand? Are we in discussion mode where we're defining success criteria or analyzing potential impacts of, you know, action steps or plans moving forward? Or are we in decision-making where we just need to come to consensus and, and do the thing, right? We need to figure out where we're going. I think that typically it's an arc, but it doesn't always go linearly, dialogue, discussion, decision-making. Sometimes you kind of hop around, but in general it feels like an arc to me. Um, and I, I would say don't underestimate the power of dialogue, right? Relational positive leadership, both of these theories say that this is critical. We need to just truly, deeply listen to each other. I would also think about the prompt for discussion. A free resource is coming soon, uh, maybe in a couple episodes, for you to consider how you would reframe away from, like, a, "Do we like this policy, yes or no?" to more of, like, e- embracing different avenues for conversation that are gonna deepen our understanding and help us come to a better consensus, um, rather than pit one group against another, which is not usually helpful. I would also say that, I mean, regularly, in addition to at the end of any discourse opportunity, appreciate one another. What did you appreciate about your peers as you engaged in conversation? Like, name it. That's part of positive leadership, and it is also gonna contribute to your five-to-one positive to challenging ratio. Um, and, you know, if you have time, how cool, do a reflected best self activity. So again, stories. To ask 20 people, it doesn't even need to be 20, but ask people, different people in your life, it could be colleagues, it could be friends, family. Encourage people to put together their stories of when they were at their best and, like, share that with people. What a cool share that would be. Okay, I have talked a lot in this episode. Way more, uh, scholarly and read-y than usual, but would love to hear your thoughts. Let me know if this was interesting to you. Let me know if this was not helpful for you. Uh, I will link to the various things that I cited and referenced verbally in the blog post for this episode, which once again is located at... Where are we located? Lindseybethlyons.com/blog/265. And I also just wanna name that you can access the free resource for this episode at the blog post, which is gonna be our leadership playlist, which has a ton of leadership support. 
Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
In this episode, Dr. Aditya Nagrath discusses the profound impact of redefining mathematics as a practical problem-solving tool rather than just a series of calculations. Drawing on his background as a scientist and researcher, he shares insights into how his platform, Elephant Learning, aims to bridge learning gaps by focusing on the foundational concepts from counting through algebra.
Dr. Nagrath also emphasizes the role of reducing math anxiety by treating mathematics as a language to empower students to engage confidently with math both inside and outside of the classroom. The Big Dream Dr. Nagrath envisions a future where mathematics is viewed not as an abstract collection of calculations to solve but as a language used to navigate the world and address real-life problems. Mindset Shifts Required Central to Dr. Nagrath’s philosophy is the need for a shift in how math is conceptualized — from a focus on rote learning and calculations to viewing it as a tool for solving real-world problems. This requires educators and families alike to stop perpetuating math anxiety by incorporating open dialogue about math challenges and demystifying concepts through everyday interactions. The emphasis should be on understanding math as a way of thinking and communicating rather than merely a subject to be feared or mastered. Action Steps To begin shifting to this new way of thinking about and teaching math, Dr. Nagrath recommends these action steps: Step 1: Begin labeling mathematical concepts encountered in daily life to make math relatable and reduce anxiety. Families can request, or educators can provide, lists of key concepts to observe in practical scenarios. Step 2: Encourage open discussions about how math is used in real-world contexts. This can involve talking through calculations and problem-solving processes out loud rather than doing them silently. Step 3: Implement platforms like Elephant Learning that are designed to reinforce foundational concepts and adapt to individual student needs, bridging gaps in understanding effectively. It helps them use math as a language and tool to solve problems. Challenges? The main challenge to implementing this new vision for teaching math is that the teacher still needs to accomplish the goals of the classroom and meet specific standards across regions. Aligning supplemental education tools with diverse classroom goals requires careful planning and adaptation. One Step to Get Started To take a step towards this innovative approach, both educators and families can create or request a simple list of mathematical concepts that relate to everyday experiences. By focusing on recognizing and naming these concepts as they arise, students can begin to see the relevance of math in their lives, reducing anxiety and increasing engagement. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on LinkedIn. Parents can check out Elephant Learning through the parent side of the website, and educators through the school side. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing a free trial of their program with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 264 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: All right. Dr. Aditya Nagrath, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Hi. Thank you for having me. Lindsay Lyons: Excited for you to be here. I'm really excited about this conversation today. I know I certainly was a person in school who did not do great in math and yet went on to do a lot of statistics in my PhD. So it's, like, really interesting, right, when we ... For me, I'm coming in with the kind of thought of, like, when we connect to things that kids care about, like, and create this culture of learning, there's learning that can happen and joy that can come out of it. And so really excited to dive in today. A- as we kind of open it up, is there anything, before we dive into my typical questions, that you want people to keep in mind throughout the episode or know going in? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, yeah. I mean, as you're talking there, um, I'm thinking about what the definition of math is. And, like, a lot of people, like, think about math as I have to execute the calculations. It's addition, it's subtraction, it's multiplication, it's division. But really, mathematics seems to be, uh, the tool we use to solve, uh, practical problems. And I think that, like, if we start to look at it that way, and as a language, right, the, the, the tools, uh, the, the language of the tools, the name, addition, subtraction, that's, that's the label of the tool which you're then going to use to solve the problem. Lindsay Lyons: I love that because that's exactly why I got excited about math, was because I wanted to learn about student voice in education, and then I was like, "Okay, well, I need some statistics to figure out how to, like, make this survey valid," right? And so that was the entry point. I love this idea of tools to solve practical problems. Okay. So taking a step of a- back, thinking about, like, kind of why you got into this, like, what your big dream is. I like to ground the episode, um, in thinking about Dr. Bettina Love talking about freedom dreaming, and she says they're dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind, like, what, what is that dream that you hold for education, for math, however you wanna interpret that? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, uh, our, our big vision, like they, they say when you take leadership courses, you need to have a BHAG, a big hairy a goal, right? And, um, and that is to change the way the world teaches mathematics. And, um, and the way that we do that is we established a mission. We're going to empower children with mathematics, and if we can empower enough children with mathematics, we're hoping that people turn and look and say, "Hey, we gotta figure out what's going on here." And so, like, uh, the whole business idea of R&D was a part of the goal. And I don't know where we are with that, honestly. Lindsay Lyons: It's fascinating to think about, like, just that transformational element of, like, we're gonna completely change how we teach math. And I imagine, I'm thinking about the families as well as the educators here who, I know a lot of educators who have kind of changed the way they teach math is different from maybe how they learned to teach math in school, and certainly from how they learned math as students, which is certainly different from families who experienced, uh, math in school and haven't been to teacher school, haven't been part of a pedagogical shift. And there's that communication at parent conference night or family night or whatever that's like, "Oh, and this is how we're approaching it now, and this is how we can coach students at home, and this is how we're gonna work together to build these skills," that is very different because families often come in with that idea that math is calculations and math is getting the number right, and, like, that is, that is all math is. So I'm curious, is there a particular, like, mindset shift or, like, some kind of aha, like, "Oh, we used to think this way, now we think this way," that you've seen educators, family members, even kids kind of go through to be able to be successful with this? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: So, like, I think what you're saying there contains maybe the heart of, uh, of the larger challenge. So, like, my understanding of it is the standards did shift with the Common Core. In order to evaluate a student's level based on the understanding of the language, and so very specifically for the teacher and parent audience, we're talking about are they using the tool to solve a problem? So, like, I see a problem in the real world, I understand that I have to multiply these two numbers together to get the solution, and that actually does, uh, provide a solution. And so that, that is different than can I execute the multiplication, first of all, but second of all, motivates the idea of I should be able to perform the calculation because I have to stop to go find the answer. You know what I mean? Like, I gotta go look it up in the dictionary. Now I know the word. You know what I mean? And so, like, uh, but contained within what you said is this idea of how do I teach it, right? Which is the same idea as how do I multiply or how do I add? And so, like, there's a separation then even there between, like, well, I have a process to do something versus I have, uh, that idea as a tool to solve an issue. And so, like, while we could change the standards, the harder thing from a leadership perspective is the application of that throughout the 15 million educators across the country. You see what I mean? And so, like, I think that, like, right now if you look at it from a, a, like, I'm gonna zoom out historical perspective, um- I- I mean, it comes down to, like, we've just made this shift a decade ago. We've been teaching math for several millennia . And so, like, this is a very small amount of time in the larger picture of things. And at the same time, i- there's a lot of confusion because of that. And so, like, now is a very particularly interesting or dangerous time as far as math is concerned because as AI is coming in, and a- as AI looks as if it's going to solve problems, um, I mean, I mean, honestly, it's not It's not actually, I mean, quote-unquote, intelligence, per se, but it is more of like a human being where we're trying to replicate the pattern, or there was a process, or... And so, like, that's good, but then it also means that the level of the human being has to get to where the standards are saying so that we can take the solution from the AI and say, "No, that's not the right solution." And I mean, it just happened to me just right over here a minute ago. Like, I had something and it was set up a certain way and I found a, a bug, and now I had to go back and I had to, like, somehow fix the data in order to fix the bug. And, you know, the, the solution that the AI suggested, it was just misguided, but at the same time, what it said to me provided an idea, was like, "Oh, you know what? Actually, we have... You're right. We have this other data here that allows us to fix this problem this other way, and now I can tell it the solution." And the part where it takes the idea and goes and implements it to code, it's pretty good at that. That's the nice thing about it. But it also ch- changes the, the field of computer science back into pure math. Lindsay Lyons: Fascinating, 'cause I'm thinking about what you're saying as what we, we hear in the humanities as well, like particularly social studies is, is I'm always thinking about, like, social studies is about thinking, and then I extend it to math. Math is about thinking. And then science, science is about thinking. And yes, there are all of these things you could do, right? You can compute things. You could, like, know about events on a timeline, sure. However, we really want to cultivate the skills of thinking and thinking critically, which is cool. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: And understanding and, and to connect it back to the statistics, like what, like what you do, right? Which statistics are we going to calculate in this particular scenario in order to get an answer to the question? Or what, like, right, I mean, typically it's a, a research study and this is the question we're posing and this, this is the data we're getting to prove that, right? And, and like, if you don't have a good understanding of that, then you choose the wrong numbers, and did you really prove anything? And Lindsay Lyons: I hope this helps, too, with educators who might be listening who are thinking- Well, I have a high school student who is struggling with, like, multiplication, and so therefore I can't teach them concepts. I mean, I would love just kind of your thinking on how you guys, I'm sure you guys address that a lot, where we have kind of a older age student who is in this higher grade level, however, has not shown proficiency in some basic numeracy or computational skills that i- is, like, inhibiting progress or, or does it inhibit progress? Can you take, you know, teach both at the same time? I don't have a intense mac- math background, so I'm curious what you think. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. So that's actually what we designed Elephant Learning to do. And what we do... A- and I mean, we, we only cover through algebra, but that's typically enough to get them to be able to con- converse with a, maybe a high school teacher or a, a, a middle school teacher. And, and the idea was, was could we just fill in the language between where the student is from a piece of, uh, from a, a, a standview, uh, a standpoint of understanding, and, um, and then fill in those gaps to where they are now with just the essential language, right? So it's not like we're teaching, here's how you add a multiple digit, uh, numbers and you're gonna carry the one. We're not doing that. We're focusing on, do you understand the idea of addition? Now, do you understand the idea of subtraction and multiplication and... Right? And so, like, and so that actually appears to be working because the, the testimonials that we get back that we're most proud of are, "My kid hates Elephant Learning." Well, I mean, w- uh, they say, "I love Elephant Learning. It's better obviously, but they love math now. And the reason why is because they go into class and they can understand the teacher, and it makes sense what they're learning about, and that, that is actually better. That's what we want. We want the outcome. And so, um, and so that's how I look at it. And, and so our system can help. Or if you're a teacher, you just have to understand, there's just not a lot of ideas between where the student is and where you are now. So while it feels like an impossible goal, also remember that this student has had that many years of experience in the world. And so it's, so it's not like they haven't encountered it. It's just a matter of we gotta label it, and we gotta get them back into the mindset of, well, let's use this as a language. Let's use this as a tool. Let's use this to solve problems. And, and we can get that student back on track Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I'm just, I'm tying this to a couple in- instructional concepts here. So one is this idea of, like, conceptual understanding, I think is huge and overlooked, 'cause we focus a lot on discrete pieces of information, like what is two times two, or i- i- you know, in other, what is the definition of this vocabulary term, right? And so this conceptual understanding is, what I'm hearing from you, really important, um, in, in math, and I would argue other topics as well. And that I love this idea of background knowledge. One of the common things teachers will say in all subject areas that I coach is, "The kids don't have the background knowledge. The kids don't have the background knowledge." But what you're saying is what I often believe, which is they, there is background knowledge. There are these mathematical interactions and experiences they've had in the world, and we just have to maybe connect them. Does that feel right? And if so, how do families maybe do that at home? Any advice for how to, like, capitalize on something that might be, like, a math conversation or could have math language applied to it? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, I mean, so, like, the first problem is, is, is understanding the level of the student. And typically, if there is a lack of understanding, there's going to be some anxiety involved, because any time I don't understand something, I start to get anxious, especially the more we talk about it. You know what I mean? And so, like, uh, the, the real challenge is, is, like, um, sometimes if you're working top-down, here's what we're talking about. Well, did you get this idea? Did you get that idea? You might get too many ideas down, and they start flipping out. You know what I mean? And so, like, um, uh, I mean, that's the first problem, right? Like, can, can we stick with it enough to get down to their level of understanding? And sometimes it takes a couple of days. But, um, once they've committed to understanding and once you've found their level, right, like, you just build them back up is, is sort of the idea. And, um, I, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question anymore is the problem. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, I think what I'm wondering is, like, how do we... We recognize their level, right? We recognize the concepts we wanna teach. We recognize that they're doing a lot of stuff that i, is math related. How do we support both, both teachers or, or I'm thinking families as well, like, how do we cultivate that outside of school? Um, I, I know that, like, programs like yours are certainly helpful. Yeah. Is there any- I'll Dr. Aditya Nagrath: add that to, to tell you that, like, what we gotta do is then just focus on when, when it comes up a- and lab- labeling the ideas, right? And so, like, the real challenge is, is that, like- We were told, "Hey, you should do the math silently." But, like, that's the math anxiety perpetuating itself, right? 'Cause if we did it out loud, no one would be scared of it. And it's like, why aren't I doing the math out loud? Like, we, so, like, um... And it, and the funny part is, like, uh, if it came to emotions, you wouldn't ever tell me, "It's too late to label shame. It's too late to label..." Like, it would never happen. But with mathematics, it's like Jedi training. He's too, he's too old, too old to begin the training, and I don't know why. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. Okay, so I, I love this idea of just you l- you label the thing, right? And then you also consider the... I, I think that's interesting, the thinking about math anxiety and all of the emotions that come w- with math, right? I, I wrote down, "Math anxiety is perpetuated by silence." That's such a fascinating idea. So are there ways that you would suggest, um, either educators or, like, what you guys do in your program l- like, kind of illuminate the, the behind-the-scenes or, like, the inner thinking so that it's not a silent activity? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah, and I mean, we're talking about the elementary concepts, so we're talking about addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, uh, fractions, decimals, and percentages. So this, these are things that human beings actually interact with on a, on a daily basis. And so, like, m- I mean, they just have to look and they'll see it. I mean, I mean, dollars and cents are decimal points. And so, like, um, uh, I think that, like, once you start looking and you start to say, "Well, wait a minute, I'm doing so much of this math," right? 'Cause, like, that's the, "When am I ever gonna use this?" Well, oh, okay, but, like, if I was doing all the math that I was encountering in a day out loud, and someone was around me, they'd be like, "Man, you're using math all the time." Lindsay Lyons: I'm almost envisioning, I, like... Families, you can request this from teachers, but teachers, maybe you can give this to families. I'm envisioning something like just taking the list you just said, right? And so, I mean, I'm su- each grade is gonna focus on different components of that. But, like, say you have a list of, you know, t- three, even, concepts. This is what we're learning for the year. You know, fractions, decimals. H- here are examples of that to look for in your daily lives at home, and to just name it as such. Like, that would be so helpful, I think, for parents who also have math anxiety and are like, "Oh, I know it's around, but I forgot what it's called," or, "I don't know..." You know? I think that would be so cool to have that communication of, like, let's just name the thing and have just a one-pager or something that they could, like, hang on the fridge. That could be so helpful to just, uh, kind of illuminate some of the math concepts, like you're saying, that are very elementary. We see them all the time. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: But maybe if our brains aren't trained to it, we w- we're not, like, labeling it out loud. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: So what Elephant Learning does is we do, we do the opposite mapping. At the level of the student, we're giving you- things and you might see outside of the system or, or activities that you could be doing outside of the system to reinforce those ideas. So they're interacting with you on those ideas, and it's at the level, right at the level of the student. So, like, you're, you're keeping pace with them. And that, I mean, accelerates it obviously, because then as you keep building up on top of it, they still have some of the former ideas coming along with them. Lindsay Lyons: Nice. I, I imagine also there's a lot of, uh, like class-wise I would always say class culture or school culture, but also just, like, I almost wanna expand it to, like, a culture of math wherever you are and whoever you're interacting with. But I'm thinking about anxiety reduction, and enough anxiety reduction or creating kind of the culture of, of using math or talking about math to reduce the anxiety as much as possible to be able to learn. Any tips or things that you've found that really help reduce that anxiety that, that teachers or families could use? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. I mean, the main, the main thing right, is understanding. If the student suddenly understands, now they don't feel the anxiety. And to be honest with you, as you're saying that, that, that thing that I said at the beginning of the show about shifting your, your thought pattern about what is math and, like, the... I mean, there's also a lot around, like, I'm answering wrong and there's, like, some wrong around that, some shame or some emotions around that. And so, like, so there, so there's that idea. But then but there's also this idea that if it's a language and I just have to, I just have to pick up a couple more words, a couple more ideas, it, it, it's not... it doesn't seem insurmountable, right? It doesn't look like there's a learning curve anymore. And that, that's really the thing, is that, like, uh, just the way we built the system almost, it's like here's an entire year for addition. It's because, okay, well, we wanna get you enough practice with it. You know what I mean? Like we wanna put it in some different contexts so you can see it, see it working out. But, like, uh, but, but it's like, what now you, you don't understand addition. You're two years behind. Right? It's, it's like this is insurmountable. But, like, if you just start to think of it as like, well, it wouldn't take me that long if I just, right, like, just focused on the ideas, then not only would the student, the teacher, everyone's anxiety starts to go away because it's like, well, I just, I just gotta get this kid a couple of ideas. Lindsay Lyons: I love that concept of just, like, less is more concept over, like, memorizing this entire table or, you know, whatever. I love that you said teacher anxiety goes down too, because that's usually what I see at, in an instructional coach role, is that the math teacher's anxiety is so high that I imagine, even not being in the classroom with them, I imagine that comes through in conversations and interactions with students. So those students, even if they weren't anxious before, n- now have all of that anxiety coming in from the teacher that, wow, they're really upset I'm so far behind, so I must really, really be behind. And now I'm even more stressed. Fascinating. Wow. Okay, that was a good, that was a good learning for me. And so I think w- this is such a good... I mean, it's such a good goal to have, that we just completely transform our thinking about how we teach math. And I am curious if there's anything we haven't covered that's been, like, a challenge you've seen either students, families, or educators experience in making that shift. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, I mean, the, the challenge is, is they have to also, uh, accomplish the goals of the classroom. I mean, they're... The teacher's in a job. I mean, the parent maybe, maybe, i- is, is, is involved, maybe is less involved. You know what I mean? So it's really hard from the parent's side. Typically, if they're coming to us and they're giving us dollars, they're involved, uh, to some degree, right? Like, may- at least they gave them the application. You see what I mean? And so, like, um, I think that, like, it... I, I mean, it's, it's a very challenging problem, the one you just posed to me because, because the standards are different in every state, because, uh, the testing is different in every school, because... You know what I mean? So, like, uh, I don't know immediately, right? Like, and then I, I was talking to a teacher and they say, "Well, each student in, in IEP has very specific goals, and I'm not supposed to grade two other goals," which, I mean, that doesn't even make sense, 'cause it's like the ball has to go in the hoop. It has to look like it went in the hoop. Lindsay Lyons: Y- yeah, there are so, there are certainly so many, I'm sure from your, you know, perspective of creating, uh, the app and, and all of the, you know, lessons and all the things, it must be challenging to, to fit that into all of the various things that teachers, and across states in the nation, have to, to, uh, factor into assessment and teaching and everything. Well, Dr. Aditya Nagrath: so we focus on the essential topics, and that's the, the difference. So for a teacher, we're supplemental, which means we're not covering every single standard, um, at least in Elephant Learning, right? And so, um, that... Z- so that's where things get a little bit more confusing, because, like, you could have this goal, you could have this mindset that I'm teaching- the language, but at the same time, it, it doesn't help me achieve this sub-goal of they have to pass this particular exam. And that's why it's like, yeah, I, I don't I don't know how to advise on this because there is no single answer anymore after that. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. I will say what's heartening is that all the research on, like, project-based learning or, like, applying concepts to solve problems does show that, like, the test results end up being better if they learn that way than if we're teaching to the test anyways. Yeah. So I think that's a good step and push to do that. The project stuff Dr. Aditya Nagrath: is always very good, because instead of teaching the mathematics in abstract, you're giving them, like, some sort of concrete goal where the mathematics, uh, is relevant in order to achieve that goal. So that, I mean, that al- al- almost always works, I think, is, is what they find out. Lindsay Lyons: I, I usually at this point in the episode say, you know, what, what would you encourage the audience to do when they end the episode, like one quick thing. I have in my mind something that I am thinking about in this conversation, but I wanna see if what you, what you think it would be. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: I'm blanking. Now that you said the question. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, can I say mine then? And we'll see if you agree. Okay. I was thinking what I might do if I listen to this was actually just make a list of those terms or concepts that I teach if I'm a teacher. And if I'm the family member, I might ask for that list. Does that feel right? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. Why not? Lindsay Lyons: Nice. All right. I'm excited. Wanna go teach math now. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. H- that works. Why not? Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Um, and then as in closing, kind of, I ask two, two final questions. And I wanna give you space to talk about Elephant Learning 'cause I think it's such a fantastic idea for, for students to, to, um, particularly older students, my background is in high school teaching, to, like, help high schoolers particularly, but, but of all ages, of course. Um, the first question though is just for fun. What is something that you have been learning about lately? And it could relate to this conversation or be totally different. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Hmm. What have I been learning about lately? I've been telling this AI to do a lot of things, I'll be honest. I Lindsay Lyons: think a lot of us are learning about AI. That is fair. Um, and then finally, like, can you tell us a bit about Elephant Learning, like how it works, where people can learn more about it or get in touch with you? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Sure. So Elephant Learning is, uh, i- is an online platform for learning mathematics. Uh, on average, children in our system learn about a year and a half of math over the course of 10 weeks. They use it just 30 minutes per week. We cover from counting through algebra, which, um, i- is roughly K through eight, but pre-K through eight. And, um, and, like, for if you're a high school student and you're struggling with mathematics, typically that's because you, you ... there was a misunderstanding that occurred in algebra or earlier. And so our system- Finds that gap or mediates that gap. It does it fairly quickly. Uh, the older you are, like the longer you could use it at a time because, like, we've seen older kids use it, like, 30, 45 minutes in a session, which is like an entire week for a five-year-old. And, um, and so, like, uh, basically it, it's gonna help you catch up to understand the teacher, uh, hopefully right there in the classroom, but at least at a level where if you're missing one or two ideas, the teacher doesn't feel like, um, they have to go back five years to help catch you up. So they're not gonna, they're not gonna freak out. And so that's, that's very helpful for most students. Lindsay Lyons: And I've seen videos where people are using iPads. Is this a app specifically for iPad, for, or, or tablet, or is it like a computer thing as well? I'm thinking about teachers who may or may not have certain devices. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: That makes perfect sense. We designed it to work just about everywhere. It runs in your browser. iPad app opens up the browser and is... We make it native because there's some hooks. But, um, yeah, I mean, uh, like, uh, Chrome, Safari, uh, iOS, Android, Kindle Fire. And, uh, I mean, for the f- most part it feels like a game. When you get to algebra, we shift the game a little bit and now it's a game of identifying what's true or what's false. And, um, and w- and what it really is is the activities that the researchers already found most effective at teaching math as a math conceptually or as a language. And so, like, what we did was we combined that with advanced algorithms that, uh, are, are able to quickly adapt to the student. So it's an adaptive supplemental tier one, two, three system. Lindsay Lyons: That is super cool. Okay. Thank you for explaining that. I understand it better now already. And then finally, where can people connect with you? Do you have, like, a website people should go to or platforms or anything? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: The best way to get ahold of us is if you're a parent, go to elephantlearning.com. And if you're a teacher, go to schools.elephantlearning.com. And if you end up at elephantlearning.com, there's this classrooms or schools on the top, so you just click that and it'll take you over there. But, um, yeah, there's a different, dif- two different initiatives, talking to parents and talking to schools. Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Nugent, thank you so, so much for being on the show today. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. 
Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
This episode features Dr. Darla Bishop, who joins our conversation to discuss the importance of family-school partnerships and financial literacy for children.
With a background in education and public health, Dr. Bishop is passionate about helping people build healthier relationships with money. She believes in the importance of teaching financial literacy from a young age and partnering with parents and educators to do so. Dr. Bishop discusses the mindset changes necessary and provides many practical tips and strategies in this episode to talk to children of all ages about money. The Big Dream Dr. Bishop dreams of an educational system where schools are seen as safe havens and key learning environments. Even more than that, she envisions a world where children are taught about money in developmentally appropriate ways, which empowers them to break generational cycles of financial mismanagement and become financially literate individuals. Mindset Shifts Required Parents and educators are encouraged to move away from seeing money as a taboo topic. Instead, they should consider the lifelong impact of teaching financial literacy, and that kids can be the carriers of social change and make lasting impacts in their lives and the lives of those around them. Action Steps The reality is that we’re already teaching our kids about money, whether explicit or not. Kids are picking up money lessons. So what does it look like to be more intentional with what we’re teaching them? Here are some key action steps Dr. Bishop recommends: Step 1: Pay attention to what money messages you’re giving your children. Does it sound like, “We don’t have money for that,” or “We can’t afford that”? Or, what are the conversations you have at the store? That helps you know what kind of messages you’re sending your children and focus on what you might want to change. Step 2: Begin having open discussions about money with children, even when they’re young. It can start by reading the prices at the store or identifying the coins and understanding their use in everyday transactions. You can also encourage kids to take part in small financial decisions, like handling money during grocery trips, to illustrate financial concepts in real life. Step 3: Set targets for children not just to spend but to save and donate money, thus nurturing a balanced financial mindset. Step 4: Form partnerships between schools and families to educate children on money. Dr. Bishop’s curriculum outlines tasks for teachers, students, and parents so each person is involved in building financial literacy. For example, if students are learning about counting multiples in math class, the teacher can ask a parent to help at home by pulling out specific coins and teaching the children to use them in real life. This reinforces what they learn in school and gives real-world money applications. Challenges? One of the significant challenges highlighted by Dr. Bishop is adults' varying relationships with money, which can often impact teaching it. Families may hold onto outdated financial beliefs, and teachers may feel unprepared to venture into financial education due to their complex financial relationships. One Step to Get Started Because one of the key challenges is our own varying relationships to money, Dr. Bishop recommends adults take stock of their own financial beliefs. Ask yourself: “What are the rules I have about money?” Write them down and then ask if they make sense for you today. You may find that they’re based on outdated ideas or other people’s ideas and values. This self-reflection aids in creating a healthier narrative around money that can be passed on to the next generation. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on her personal website, the Piggy Bank Pathways website and Instagram. You can also check out her book for children, Madeline’s Money Adventure, or older teens, How to Afford Everything. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing Piggy Bank Pathways Activity Hub with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 263 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Darla Bishop, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Darla Bishop: Thank you so much for having me. Lindsay Lyons: I am really excited to dive in. So I have a few things on my mind since I've, like, learned about all of your stuff and, and you've sent me materials and everything. That's so exciting. Um, I also imagine you have things that you want listeners to know or keep in mind as we kind of go through, uh, the general questions. But things on my mind, and I'm gonna throw it to you, and let, let us know what's on your mind. Family school partnerships, like how schools and families can work together to help kids. Huge. I think I'm really excited to know your ideas there. Um, also just healthy ways to talk about money with kids as well as, like, what exactly do we talk about with the kiddos? I'm so excited we got a guest. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, and so what's so awesome about schools and parents is they already work together already, right? And the idea that I approach this as a parent who's also been a teacher, um, for little kids and grown-ups, is if we put a bit of attention behind it, a bit of intention about how we see our role, how we see the other side's role, and whether or not those things match, and we're to make sure we're kind of talking in the same way so that it's easier for us to meet in that middle, where we're all concerned about the same thing anyway, right? We care about raising and having great citizens, and them displaying those behaviors now while they're in the school environment, while they're home with their siblings and family, while they're in the community doing, you know, their sports or just out and about living normal life, right? And so since we all have that same goal, that if we just put a bit of intention from all sides, that it will all go smoother and the kids will benefit even more. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I think, I mean, part of what you're saying actually leads into my next question, so I'm just gonna ask it. Um, but Dr. Bettina Love talks about the idea of freedom dreaming with a quote that I admire. She says, "They're dreams grounded in the critique of injustice." And so with that in mind, like, what is that dream that you hold for education broadly or, or, you know, um, y- youth and, and finances and financial literacy? Like, however you wanna interpret that. Dr. Darla Bishop: Well, there's a couple pieces of that, right? Like, part of it is in the school environment, right? Like, how do we help kids from all types of situations feel that school is their safe place, and that they love it, and that the adults there are there to love them in whatever way that feels right and appropriate, and teach them and guide them and support them? Because not everybody has a great home, and so maybe that they're getting some of that from school, which I know is heavy for teachers, but like, hey, it, it is what it is because that's how we've built our society, right? For better or worse. The other part on the money side is the reason I'm so passionate about helping kids learn about money is layered. One, my background in education and public health, we know that whenever we need to change something in the public's health large scale, writ large, that when we teach kids the behaviors that we want to see in society, they go enforce it with their grownups. Perfect example, seat belts, right? When seat belt law started to change, state police and other safety organizations went into schools, did safety presentations. Fire safety went into schools, did safety presentations, taught the kids, "Here's how... Here, here's what you need to do every time you get into the car. If someone in the car isn't using their seat belt, remind them, because maybe they don't know." And so that means that the children end up being the carrier of this social change. And so when we teach the babies about money in very simple age and developmentally appropriate ways, a few things happen. One, in case their parents never got these lessons, we're starting at the ground, and so it's okay because now the parent learns the lesson too, right? The other thing that happens is when the child notices how the grownups and/or older kids in their life are using money, they start asking questions based on what they learned in the school environment The next thing that happens is just in case there are forces that don't allow the parent, the grown-ups, to get it together, right? They can't ever figure out how to save. They can't ever figure out to, to work consistently. They can't ever figure out how to just move out of whatever space they're in. Those lessons that those kids get in the classroom end up being protective. Because once that child grows into a young adult who's then working and earning a little bit of money, even if the parent or the grown-up has said, "Well, now you're working, you need to contribute to the house," they might say, "Mm, but I remember I'm supposed to save $5," even if it's just $5 from my check for some reason. And then all of a sudden we have a 16, 17 or 18-year-old who maybe has been working an after-school job, a weekend job, and they've got a few hundred or even a few thousand, um, dollars saved up because they remember this lesson from when they were a kid, even if the grown-ups in their life were unable to take the action, they were. So then they're starting off their life as an adult, perhaps independent, perhaps not, but with these behaviors that they learned as a kid. And so they can be the grown-up who teaches the next generation or the one above them. When I learned about money, when I taught everybody in my life about money, it changed three generations of my family. My s- me and my siblings, because I, of course, put them on a budget as soon as I could. And then the grown-ups because they say, "Hey, we notice you're doing okay. Well, how do you do this?" And they kind of ask in their own way for how they could do things differently in a way that still worked for them. And then my kids are super money smart, just because they swim in this water where we're talking about money all the time. And so that, that's where it comes from. And I know that was a long answer, so I'll be quiet because let's talk. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. My brain is exploding right now. I'm taking furious notes. Um, wow, where to even go next? I mean, so I just wanna kind of like echo back some of the things that are really resonating with me. So this idea of kids being the carriers of social change, like, mm, I just want people to sit with that. That's really good. I also am really excited about the idea of asking questions. Like inquiry pedagogy from the teacher lens, also the family lens, like how do we continue conversations over time? I love that you're-- It's making me think of your curriculum, you know, K-5 being like, okay, and we grow this over time. We don't start in pre-K with like, here's how to budget for this, like, thing that you, you want necessarily, but we're doing like a foundational piece to eventually do that. Um, I just, I think there's, wow, so much that you just said that's literally blowing my mind. Um, but also I, I'm curious to know, like- I have heard so many families who are families of preschoolers, families of, uh, maybe elementary kids particularly say, I literally have a family say to u- say to us, um, we were doing, uh, how to talk to kids about social issues. It was h- how do I, do I literally say the word money? Like, they were like, "I have grown up never having been told to talk about money." That was, like, a taboo subject. Um, I also have, have been thinking about, um, folks that I know that are, like, very stressed when it comes to money because families have shared the dynamics of money, but not necessarily in a healthy way. And so I'm curious, I think there's some probably shifting or, like, a, a term I often hear is, like, the re-parenting, right? Like, you're, like, re-parenting yourself. You're shifting how you grew up thinking about money and now we gotta do it different. Like, for the family members listening to this or engaging with this episode, like, w- what has to happen for that shift or what's, like, a mindset that you can help coach us through that needs Dr. Darla Bishop: to happen? Yeah. Uh, and I'm s- thank you so much for hitting on that. I think part of it is we don't always realize as parents that our voice ends up being that inner monologue for a long time, right? Especially if you're in the stage where you have some older kids, like they're 12 and up, and so they're not listening to you. They're listening to their, their friends and their, their peers. But really, your voice ends up be that, is that, um, inner monologue really probably until early to mid-20s. And so what you say and what you do matters, not to put pressure, but it matters more than you're probably giving yourself credit for. And so one of the things I often th- say is, like, if you're wondering how you're already teaching your kids money lessons, because you are. We're constantly teaching our kids lessons about relationships, about money, about values, about how we treat one another, right? Whether we are explicitly doing it or just living our lives, 'cause they are watching, right? That if you are wondering how you t- how your kids are picking up the money lessons is for 30 days, s- start at, say, like, and put it in your calendar even. Just make a note in your phone or if you're a journaling or diary type person, every time you hear your kid say something about money, ask for something that has a cost, a, a financial cost, or react, just so that you can kind of create a list of the things that you hear your kids say, or even better, that you say to the family, right? And then after a couple weeks, three or four Look at your list, and we are not looking at this with any judgment of ourselves, of anything. We're just simply-- This is we're, we're being anthropologists. We are being NCIS. We are being curious. We are investigating, not making any judgments yet about, hmm, so what are the things that we've said out loud to one another about money? And if you look at that list and you're like, "Cool, that's what I want their inner voice to say," stay exactly there. Keep using those messages. But if you see the list and you're seeing things like, "We ain't got money for that. Stop asking for stuff. We can't afford it," and if you don't want those to be the main messages rolling around in your child's head, then you gotta figure out what to say differently. And I'd like to give this example of being in the store with my child, right? Like every once in a while we've gotta go to a big box store because we need trash bags and light bulbs. So the way that I set us up for success is I specifically say, "This is the purpose for this trip. We are going to this store because we need trash bags and light bulbs." And I recruit the kid to help me remember, quote-unquote, that we're here for trash bags and light bulbs. "Oh my gosh, what are we here for again? Oh, trash bags and light bulbs. Okay." 'Cause they're helping me stay on track, and which is great. You give a kid a job, and they're gonna do that job most of the time, right? The second thing I do is when they notice something that catches their attention, a toy, a dress, a candy, something colorful, I don't, if, especially if we're not in a hurry, we don't have somewhere to go, I don't rush them past it. I say, "Oh, well, let's stop and look at it. Well, what do you like about this dress? Oh, you like the color. Oh, okay." Okay, so I g- engage them in a thirty-second conversation, a one-minute conversation, and then usually that actually satisfies it because I didn't rush them past the thing, and they got to tell me why they liked it, and we got to spend a little time with the thing, or they got to pick it up, or they got to touch it. That's like eighty percent of the time enough, and we can move on. Now, for that other twenty percent of the time where they actually make the ask, "Mom, can I have?" I say, "Hmm, well, do you remember what we came to the store for?" And they say, "Trash bags and light bulbs." Perfect. "Did we get our trash bags and light bulbs?" "No, not yet." Okay. Well, let's get that first. So I can either move them to the main purpose we came to the store, or I can say, "Well, because we didn't come for the dress or the toy or the candy today, we're not gonna get it today. But can you look, tell me what numbers it says on the price tag?" And then it makes them look so that they can recognize prices, because that's an important life skill. That's an important skill to have when you send them to the store to pick something up when they're old enough to do that on their own, right? They need to be able to look and identify prices and compare, "Well, this one costs $2 and this one costs $2, but this one's bigger, so maybe that's the one I want," right? And so, "Oh, what's that price?" "Okay, it's $7." "Do you think you have $7 in your piggy bank?" "I don't know." "Okay. Well, we know that you like it. We know that it costs $7. Now that we have our trash bags and light bulbs, we're gonna leave the store. But as soon as we get home, let's check your piggy bank, and if you have the $7, well, the next time I come to this store, or I might even make a special trip, and I'll come get that thing for you." Right? And then if they don't have the $7, "Well, darn, you, you only got $5. Well, what could we do to help earn the extra two that you need? Is there some special jobs you could do around the house? Do our neighbors need anything? Do you have any birthdays or special occasions coming up where Granny or this other person in our life usually gives you a small gift?" My son, when he goes to the barber shop, the barber is so nice and usually will tell him, "If you sweep the floor, you can have $2." So my son will say, "Can we go to the barber shop?" Because he knows he can, he can get the $2 he needs there, right? And I know I explained this in a long way, but that little interaction of, "Well, how much does it cost? Okay, let's check your piggy bank," only took a little bit longer than, "No. Put it back. Stop asking for stuff," and develops a much richer, friendlier in, in relationship with money. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. That was... I'm, like, taking notes 'cause I'm like, "I'm gonna do that thing next," 'cause I've totally found myself being like, "No. We can't. We're not doing that. Stop asking." So this is so good. Oh, wow. And I also just love how much, like, there is so much you're teaching in that conversation. I mean, I imagine, I'm already thinking, like, two conversations ahead too to, like, okay, maybe we buy the thing for $7, and then the next time we're at the store and we identify this other thing, and now we don't have any money in the piggy bank, right? Like, what a wonderful opportunity to now engage, like, well, because you made a choice, right? Like, and we... Oh my gosh, there's so much potential, and for a continuing conversation about- Dr. Darla Bishop: For a continuing conversation, right? Because we're teaching our kids about money every single day. Every single day. And so if we can put a bit of intention about it, then it just l- opens up a world of possibilities for the kids. And when you don't, and I'm not telling anyone, parents or teachers, that you have to have the answers, but have a few questions ready. Because when you have questions ready, the kid will carry the conversation. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely Absolutely. A- and, and what I love, thank you for sending, uh, me a little glimpse of, like, what the, your curriculum looks like. It's beautiful, and what I really wanted to just say I love is in each lesson you have, like, here's what the task is for the teacher, here's what the task is for the student, here's what the task is for the family member. And I, I just love that those three, wi- within the lesson it is assumed and encouraged and invited that everyone is an equal participant in this. So you have student agency, you have that home family connection or home-school connection immediately, and I think, I, I, I just love, one, that as a mindset of just when we're doing this, here's a prompt I'm gonna send home for families, or here's a prompt I might tell families ahead of time. Um, I- do you mind sharing some of the ways that might come up in the curriculum or that you've seen be successful with, like, I'm doing something as the teacher at school, here's, like, a move a teacher can make or an ask a teacher can make of the family to, to bridge that partnership or to form that? Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the things that I've heard from, like, my credit union and banking partners is they're realizing that kids are not spending much time handling real money. And so when they're doing the math lesson, you know, if you've been a elementary school teacher, you have the math book and it's pictures of the coins. The kids are having a much harder time getting that concept of which coin is which value because they literally haven't handled them, right? And so one of the things I might do, whether I'm the math teacher, the social studies teacher, or the teacher who's been tasked with doing this money workshop, is I'm going to ask the parents, "Hey, can you specifically find some coins and talk with your child about counting the coins, sorting the coins, identifying the coins, and telling you how much the coins make?" Because this is something we're doing in math to teach them multiples, and if you do it in real life where they get to touch it and smell it, 'cause pennies smell funny, and see which is bigger and which is smaller and which are the same color and which is a different color, then it'll make my work in this math lesson where we're teaching multiples way easier. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I mean, even just there was an article I was reading the other day, and I said something to my three-year-old and I was like, "Oh my gosh, they're not gonna make pennies anymore." And he's like, "What does that even... Like, what does, how is that even a thing?" I was like, "Oh, right, 'cause you don't handle pennies. Like, you don't handle coins 'cause everything is on our credit card." So that is so good 'cause I, I feel like there's so many other things, like current event articles like that, that could now make meaning because you have handled the physical thing. Dr. Darla Bishop: Right Lindsay Lyons: Go ahead. Um, I am curious about, also I'm sure, uh, like, the audience is, is curious about, like, what is a potential trajectory from, like, a pre-K conversation to, like, a fifth grade conversation about money? Like, can you give us a couple examples of, like, what does it look like in fifth grade, and then what does it look like m- several years later to kind of like illustrate how we build over time, whether I'm a teacher or honestly a family member as well? Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah. So let's stick with the physical money conversation, right? So in the lower elementary, we're gonna be actually handling physical money and showing that the numbers on the paper, the symbols on the coins matter, and that's how you can tell what the value is. And that we use these things, this paper and these coins, to trade them for other things we need or want. So it's really basic, right? And then we also talk about all the different ways we can use these papers and co- pieces of metal. We can use them to save, s- because we know we want something and we need to take little bits of money over time. We can use it to spend because we are ready to now trade it for something we need or want. We can use it to share or give to others because that's one of the thing that's really important to do, is when you have, is to make a plan to share. And it might be that you share the money or it might be that you share the toy or the food that you bought with the money. But we're also getting in that sharing is caring language, right? Now, the fifth grader, we're gonna talk about, okay, so you know that all the grown-ups either tap their phone or use this plastic card to use money. So how do you know how much it's used when it's not the physical paper? So we're gonna be really trying to get them to think about how to keep track when it's not the physical thing that if they had a stack of dollars, they could see it get smaller, but instead they're just tapping or swiping. So what are all the different ways they're gonna know how much is in the bank, right? So that they can think about what their limit is, what they can spend, what they can't spend, how to get more, what happens when it's too low, right? So we're gonna have them problem solve so that they have that reminder from when they were little that there is a physical thing behind the plastic card or the tap. Now, when they are teenagers, and maybe they are more- Um, they are more consistently doing things to trade their time or skills for money, like babysitting or mowing lawns or, you know, working at the ice cream shop or the car wash, right? So, like, having them think about, okay, so you know that every time you spend an hour of your life at the car wash, you- you're getting $10. And if you want to go buy those shoes, it's gonna cost you $100. So that means you had to trade 10 hours or a full day plus some extra hours working in order to buy those shoes. Is that still worth it? How long will the shoes last? How are you going to use the shoes? How are you going to take care of them? Because if something breaks, if they, if they get damaged, that means when you go to replace them, because it's really hard to get shoes fixed, at least that kind of shoe, when you go to replace them, you gotta do that whole thing all over again, and it might be $110 now instead because they don't have that one. They have a- the newer model, and it just cost a little bit more, right? So then we're still connecting that physical paper and coin from when we caught them in first grade to now trading their time for money and what that really looks like, because it's, they had to put their effort or their work or their sweat in order to get the money, in order to trade it for the thing. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. Okay, two things I'm absolutely loving. One, this idea of, like, is it worth it. Th- that to me is, is, coming back to that initial example in the grocery store, right? Like, is it worth it? Yeah, we do have $7 at home in your piggy bank. You've saved for a whole year. You've got it. Is it worth it to, to give all that there? Or do you want that thing for $10 that you've been talking about for the last year and you wanna, like, save up for that, right? Like, I love that framing to just as a parent have in the back of my head to be like, "Oh, right." Maybe it's not the literal question I ask my three-year-old, but, like, it's, it's, it's there in my mind to guide our conversation. But I also just really wanna name that sharing piece. That is so good. I constantly, like, try to, to think about how to par- parent well in all the dimensions, and I keep them separate sometimes. I'm like, "Oh, it's a money conversation. Oh, this is a, a community conversation, how to be a good community member." But actually, they can totally be the same conversation, and I just love that you named that, so thank you. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, no, for sure. And part of it too is one of the things that I've recently realized as a parent is I was doing the business of our lives without my kids, because it's just faster, right? It's faster to go to the grocery store without the kids. It's faster to run this errand without putting everybody's shoes and socks on. It's like, okay, hey, the other parent's here. You're good. Okay, I'm gonna run to the store. I'll be back in 25 minutes. You need anything, right? But then I was like, wait, but that's how I learned how to do this stuff with my own parents, by being drug around to the post office, and the, the clerk where we had to drop things off, or to the grocery store, right? Like, and so if I, for my own convenience, leave the kids out, how will they learn how to do these things in real life? And so I'm gonna have to just leave more time to go grocery shopping so they can come along. I'm gonna have to leave more time or pick which day we're gonna go to the hardware store so they know how to say, "Excuse me," and, "How can I find this?" Or, "This is what I'm looking for." Because those are all interactions we need to know how to do, and if I don't model it for them, if I don't give them a chance to practice this while I'm here to guide the interaction, then how will they know what to do when they are on their own? How will they know what to do when I'm ready to send them to the store instead of me going? Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. I'm already trying to scaffold toward independence for little things. Like, that's a huge one, right? You go, get those groceries. I can remember doing that as a kid, we just, I had to go a million times with my dad first. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yep, exactly. Lindsay Lyons: I am curious. I, I named a few challenges that were in my brain that I had heard people share. Um, is there any challenge that you've noticed with families or teachers talking about money that they've kind of come up against? Um, whether it's, like, resistance to talking about it at all, or, like, you know, I talk about it in this way, but, like, really I should, like, talk about it in this healthier way, or yeah, I'm curious to know what your, like, big ahas are for us so we don't have to, like, muddle through that ourselves. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, I mean, it's because we all, each of us has our own relationship with money. Each of us. And even in a married couple, because we came into that marriage with all types of experiences before we became a married couple, that each individual's relationship with money Could be totally different than what that couple as a unit's relationship will be with money. And that's why, not to bring everybody down, you know, 40% of marriages that end often say it was because of, of financial disagreements, right? And so in the school-family-child dynamic, the thing that comes up is that we often, often, I don't wanna say all, but we often have not fully examined our relationship with money. So here I am trying to teach it, but I don't even know how I feel about these things. Um, and the other piece too is teachers, you know, while in our society we say teachers, you know, are underpaid and underfunded and have to do so much work. I don't know if you know that statistically speaking, a teacher has a much better chance at retiring as a millionaire than a physician, right? Yeah, statistically speaking, you have much better odds to retire as a millionaire as a teacher than you do as a physician. And think about it, right? Because if you're a teacher, you probably started your career, unless you had to take a different path, m- r-right out of college at 22. You only, if you had loans at all, you only had the loans from that four-year degree, because if you go for more schooling, you usually do that while you're already teaching, and the district will help to subsidize that expense, um, so that you can continue to, you know, develop as an educator. Um, and then depending on when you became a teacher, you might have access to a retirement plan where the school district is putting a portion or a percentage of your salary in, again, right at age 22. Um, or you might even still have a pension. There are a few school districts that still offer pensions, and so you're starting your retirement, um, financial situation right at 22. That's great. That's great. And then because you went to a teaching university or, and only spent four years in school, your loan balance is probably much lower than someone who went to medical school. 'Cause if you go to medical school, that means you're probably not actually working and earning a big, a big salary, yes, but you're not earning that salary until 28 at the earliest, 32 if you did something special. And so that's a full 10 years that person has not been participating in retirement savings. So you've got that time power of money on your side. And as a teacher, no one expects you to drive a luxury car. No one expects you to have a huge house. No one expects you to have three kids in private school. In fact, if you do, they'd be like, "Wait Why do you drive a fancy car, have a big house, and have three kids in private school, right? But if you are a physician, those lifestyle expectations are there, so you start it with a lot more debt. You have to have ... You have high expenses because you have to pay your liability insurance, your, um, malpractice insurance, and then there's all those lifestyle pressures. And as a teacher, if you go thrift shopping every weekend, no one bats an eye. If you drive a used car for 20 years, no one bats an eye. So it is statistically speaking way easier to be a millionaire as a teacher than it is as a physician in this country. And so what if we leaned into that? That hey, I c- I'm, I'm potentially a million dollar teacher just because I've been putting in retirement since I was 22. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I've never heard that statistic or thought about that. That is brilliant. I also just love the, like your encouragement for introspection around like the how do we, how have we come to money in a partnership, and like, and now I'm teaching about it. Like, there are so many things that we hold onto that like, you know, not everybody's excavating in therapy or something, you know. Like we have to actually- Right ... dig in and like think about it. Oh my gosh. Wow, you have given me so much to think about. I'm realizing we are almost out of time, so I'll move- Dr. Darla Bishop: Oh my gosh ... Lindsay Lyons: last few questions. But I- I'm curious, what is like one thing that an audience member can do when they end the episode, and it's like I wanna just put some little nugget of this conversation into practice today or tomorrow? Dr. Darla Bishop: The very first thing I would suggest is get a piece of paper, and I love blank pieces of paper for this. Colorful if you have it. So if you're a teacher listening, go grab a yellow or a bright orange from the copy room. I won't tell on you. Because th- that something about the bright color actually sparks some creativity. And I want you to write one question: What are the rules I have about money? And then write down all the rules you have about money. I cannot spend this. I'm supposed to save this. And rules can be good, bad, or neutral. J- but just write down all the rules that you have in your brain about money, whether you follow them or not. We're just writing all the rules that someone has ever told you about money. And then I want you to go through and ask, "Does this rule make sense for my life today?" Because one of the things that happens with how we learn about money is we learn from the grown-ups around us when we're growing up or coming of age, right? And their context may have been completely different, so the rules they gave us made total sense for their life, for their situation, for their generation, for their income, for their whatever, right? But might not make sense for us in our life right now. And so- Just see if there is a rule that you've been carrying around, and maybe even feeling bad that you haven't been able to follow, but doesn't make any sense for you. Like, if my rent is $1,500 a month, and if I wanted to go live the American dream and buy a house, but my mortgage would be $2,200 a month, then it actually does not make sense for me to be a homeowner. And so every time my parents ask me why I haven't bought a house yet, I should tell them, "Well, Mom, Dad, it's because my rent is 1,500 and my mortgage would be 2,200. It doesn't make math sense, and I can do math." And that'll shut down the conversation, at least that time. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's really good. Okay, thank you for that. Next question: What have you been learning about lately? It could relate to our conversation or it could be totally not related. Dr. Darla Bishop: So I've been learning about how to be an online influencer or content creator or, depending on who the teacher is, they use different words, because I'm realizing that that's where a lot of people are getting information. And so if I've got good information, I need to be there to kinda, like, soften up all the not-so-great information that's out there. 'Cause maybe people will pick up my book, but they're probably more likely to find me on TikTok, so let me make sure I'm over there. Lindsay Lyons: Yes. Okay. So now, that's a great segue, I want to just give space to talk about your book, and also, like, where people can find it and you online. Dr. Darla Bishop: Oh, thank you so much. So we have a few books. So we have How to Afford Everything, and that's the book for grown-ups. So this one is best for someone who's e- earning money, so, like, 16 and up. Now, a 16-year-old's probably not gonna write it. Most of my readers are, like, 25 and up. And then I've got How to Afford College, because many of us, depending on how we grew up, education can be absolutely a pathway to a different life trajectory, right? A different type of career, a different type of environment, a different city and state. And so if I don't understand the financials of getting to and through college, I might end that college with more debt than I needed to have, just because I didn't know any better. I didn't know any different. So that's what How to Afford College about. And then the book that I shared with you is the children's book, which is part of a bigger series that will be coming out in 2026. It's called Madeline's Money Adventure, and this is our storybook version with that lesson for that early elementary, so the, like, f- four to 10-year-olds, right? Like, the 10-year-old can read it to their little sibling but will be bored by it kind of thing. And this is, introduces the basics of money and some of the language and how we can relate to it. And it's bilingual English/Spanish because that was important to my family and my community, so we put the, both languages right on the same page. The easiest way to find me is go to darlabishop.com, and all the links are there Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, I'm actually gonna go buy that children's book right now 'cause I have not yet. And thank you for this conversation, Dr. Bishop. This was so fun. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, thank you for having me. I know we chatted a long time, so sorry listeners, this was a long one. Lindsay Lyons: No, it was an excellent long one. 
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In this episode, we talk with Christina Hideck about the transformative potential of parent involvement in schools. Christina is a former attorney, now working as a professional organizer who is passionate about parent-teacher relationships. She’s the author of The Principal’s Parent Group Playbook, which offers practical tips and strategies for any PTO to implement.
Christina discusses the importance of recognizing parents as an under-leveraged pillar in school communities, the need for collaborative strategic planning between parent groups and school stakeholders, and the significance of institutional knowledge sharing to support effective school-parent (guardian) partnerships. The Big Dream Christina envisions a world where every school boasts a healthy and functional parent group. She believes that when parent groups operate effectively, the potential for creating a positive impact on the school environment is limitless. Mindset Shifts Required The conversation debunks two big myths around parent (guardian) involvement in the school. First, involvement doesn't equate to a never-ending commitment, and there isn’t an expectation to know anything before getting started. On the teacher-administrator side, it’s important to recognize that parents are coming in with very little experience in running a healthy and efficient school parent group, so they need support. Both parents and school stakeholders need to overcome misconceptions and stereotypes about parent-teacher organizations (PTOs) and recognize each other's roles and potential to work collaboratively. Action Steps To begin cultivating a thriving partnership between school stakeholders and family members, Christina emphasizes these high-leverage action steps to take: Step 1: Start with common or shared goal setting. What does the school really want to do? What parents are already excited about making that happen? What are parents hoping to accomplish? Getting on the same page about the shared goals can help set everyone up for success. Step 2: For school employees, identify areas where parental support could significantly enhance school goals and open these opportunities to families. Then, be open to how family members want to be involved, let them take action on what’s important, and communicate transparently with families about school goals, values, and opportunities. Step 3: Access resources through your PTA (a parent-teacher association, which, unlike PTOs, a PTA has more resources through the credentialing body) or Christina’s PTO Answers. Step 4: Cultivate empathy and understanding. Teachers and educators need to understand that family members don’t know how schools operate today; they are only able to reference what they did in school decades ago. Teachers can come alongside family members to help them understand how things operate now. Challenges? A significant challenge is to dismantle outdated perceptions of PTOs as merely event planners. School leaders and parents must work together to ensure that parent groups are seen as vital partners in the educational process. One Step to Get Started For parents, reflect on how you can actively participate in your child’s school, whether that’s volunteering in class, bringing in theatre projects, or something else you’re passionate about. Getting involved exists on a wide spectrum of time, effort, and energy, and you can consider what’s best for your situation. For educators and school leaders, reach out to a parent during open house events and start a conversation about how they can assist with specific school initiatives. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on their website, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing the PTO Family Engagement Opportunity Assessment with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 262 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Christina Hydock, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Christina Hidek: Oh, Lindsay, I am so excited for our conversation today. Lindsay Lyons: Me too, and I, I have been thinking a lot. I know you said before we hit record, you know, I'm really interested in, like, the expansion of my understanding of shared leadership to encompass families as well as, like, the typical students that I'm talking about. So really excited about that family school partnership dynamic. That's what's on my mind today. But wondering anything that's on your mind that you want people to kind of keep in mind throughout the episode. Christina Hidek: I think that including parents is just really important, and it is often an overlooked, under-leveraged kind of third pillar of, like, the adult, adults in the room for schools, right? You have the school leaders, you have the teachers. And when I say teachers, I mean staff and, like, e- e- everyone, right? So that's just, like, shorthand for everyone who's not an administrator, I guess. And, um, so yeah, just the ... It's just they're under-leveraged, and I would love to ... Under-leveraged, under-recognized, overlooked, and under-celebrated. Lindsay Lyons: A lot of potential there. Yes, Christina Hidek: there is so much po- so, like, that was a lot of negativity, but I guess I would also love for people who maybe have not had the best experience with a parent group in the past, maybe this is your chance to, like, reset and reframe and think about that was that. Because the, the biggest thing is that parent groups, they change from year to year, which is awesome, but very frustrating. And so you have really a new opportunity. Just like when you have a new set of kids in your classroom, you have the opportunity to kind of reset things. It's the same with the parents. Lindsay Lyons: It segues nicely into this first question I usually ask around freedom dreaming. So Dr. Bettina Love describes dream, uh, freedom dreaming as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so I am hearing a lot of injustice in, like, what you were describing, right? Is there's, there's this potential for family partnerships with school stakeholders, and we're not, we're not doing it. We're actually excluding a lot of families in our current system. So can you actually, like, reformulate that into, like, your dream? Like, what, what is the dream there? Christina Hidek: I would love for every school to have a healthy and functional parent group. In my own kids' schools and have seen what the parent groups who are f- not always been 100% healthy or productive or functional. Like, there are still, there's amazing things that can get done even there. So imagine if, one, everyone had a parent group, a, and then if they were, like, functional and healthy. Like, my mind just can't even handle the awesomeness of the potential Lindsay Lyons: What are some of the mindset shifts that either family members or school stakeholders, leaders, teachers, sh- should kind of go through to be able to make that dream a reality? I think there's a lot of probably misconceptions or kind of old ways of thinking of how traditionally we've done things. Like, what's the shift there mindset-wise? Christina Hidek: All right. So for parents and guardians, right? So parents is shorthand for anybody who is responsible for a child in school. That's... I try to be really inclusive, but I use- It's important shorthand. So for parents, just know that you're being involved doesn't mean jumping through and into a black hole of never-ending commitments. So that's one, because I think so many people have the perception of school parent groups and being involved in school has been shaped by what they see. What do we see in, like, popular culture? Parent groups really are never positively represented. Normally, you see very dysfunctional groups where there's a power struggle over, by the parents, either internally or with the school about something that is of zero consequence. For example, the theme for the carnival. It's so reductive that that's what we care about, that, that, at p- as parents, we really are really willing to fight tooth and nail over a jungle theme or a Paris theme for a party, you know? Like, so one is parents know that you're not necessarily gonna get sucked into the black hole, that your involvement does matter in ways that you don't even realize how much it's gonna matter in, kinda, till after the fact. And that is one of the reasons why I've been involved for so long and in such kind of high-profile ways, that it was really, even though it was a lot of work, the payoff was there for me personally and also for my children. Um, so it wasn't completely altruistic in me giving back. I totally am getting something back. And the other thing is that parents, you don't need to know anything in order to get involved. No one is expecting you to have all the answers, and you can say, "I don't know." And so on the flip side, for everybody who is employed by the school, uh, know that parents are coming in with probably very little experience for running a healthy and efficient school parent group. Like, there is no PTO school. It's kind of the same with, like, the principals, school leaders, and teachers. There's no PTO school for them either. So they don't really know- The possibilities, if you have a really good experience, then great. Then, then that's kind of like your framework. But if you have a negative experience, then I think that's really gonna stunt the possibilities of what could be for you because that's your reality, and you don't know maybe how it should be. Lindsay Lyons: In terms of how we actually cultivate a thriving partnership between school stakeholders or people employed by the school, I like that phrasing, um, and, you know, family members, so parents, guardians, caretakers. Yeah. And I imagine there's a lot of pieces, and I've seen your website, there are a lot of pieces 'cause you have a lot of pieces in your blog posts- No, that's okay and things, which is great. I'm wondering about kind of some high-leverage practices or actions that PTO members or even families in general trying to get involved in PTOs could take. Like, what's the action on the family side, and then are there any actions that school administrators or teachers or staff could take to partner better with an existing PTO? Christina Hidek: Sure. I, I think it really comes down to common or shared goal setting because there are definitely some things that the school wants to make happen that's on their big wish list, but maybe they don't have time to make it happen. Well, then you maybe have some really motivated parents who are like, "We're here. Just point us in the right direction. We don't wanna s- step on your toes." 'Cause not every parent who wants to get involved has an agenda beyond wanting to improve the school parent group. Lindsay Lyons: I'm thinking about the, when you talked about the w- what I would think of as, like, the strategic plan or, like, um, kind of those big goals that, that stake- stakeholders in the schools have to set as part of just what they do as a leader, right? It's usually every five years, for example, districts have a, a strategic plan or schools have a strategic plan. And there's all these things that are tied to academic outcomes, to social-emotional outcomes of students, like, all these important things. And to contrast to your earlier example of, like, the carnival theme there's meat to some of this work already being done that I see as really powerful to kind of t- tap the PTO or partner with the PTO on existing structures and plans as opposed to having them completely separate. Christina Hidek: In my own groups, because I have been a leader, it's very much been shared when the school leaders have been open to it because not every school leader understands, like, the kind of deal. And I always, I have this little joke and I always say, "Oh, I gotta break in a new principal, kind of show them the ways of how we do things here." I'm very open to being collaborative. I want to support the school leader and the teachers. My mom is a retired teacher, so that's my background. I, I know the challenges. Not all of them, but a good, good amount. I, uh, have a very large, um, Facebook group, and th- one member recently posted, she's like, "Our- we're not working at all with our school. Like, th- we- I don't even know what we should be doing because it, they're taking care of everything." And I was like, "Well, reach out to that principal and get on their calendar and figure out where you can support them." There is space for you. You don't have to do identical things, but there's so much overlap, and so to have things separated is making things so much harder on both groups. There are some really fantastic synergistic benefits of coming together. So like you talk about the strategic plan, I, my district has done it I think three times now, and I was involved with two out of the three this last time. My kids are almost done, and I was like, it is time for other people to step up and have their opinions kind of come in because I've had my time. But I found the process to be so beneficial and helped me understand more of what the school's plans were and how they were approaching issues. And then I'm like, oh, uh, we need to change things. 'Cause in my district there was, the first strategic plan, there was a big emphasis, and this was just me because the person in the room was the loudest, talking about the need for discipline and that things were running amok. And I'm like, I, I don't ... That's not my experience of, uh, seeing what's going on in our buildings. But that she really wanted that stressed in that strategic plan. But it was kind of old school thinking of- Lindsay Lyons: Been there as a coach in those conversations. You're like, "Let's pivot. We're unearthing-" "... root causes here that we might need to get into." Yeah. But I, I love that you were part of the strategic plan for two out of those three, and I'm curious, were you in the room with the strategic planning committee? Were there multiple, uh, family representatives- Yeah ... and then you kind of came back to the PTO? Was it actually a topic on a PTO agenda somewhere? Like how, how does it li- where does it live? Christina Hidek: For me, the first two times we were actually in the room where the decisions were happening, and the first time, uh, I think we were led by outside consultants. There were multiple PTO leaders who were there. And then the second time, they didn't approach the strategic plan in the same way, and so we immediately broke into committees. I think they may have given us a choice about what committee we could go to. Um, but we were there crafting the individual objectives and laying it out, and then able to give feedback, 'cause there were some things that we were like, "Oh, this is something the PTO can, like, totally help with." Like, "Did you know?" And they were like, "Really?" And I'm like, "Y- yeah." My recollection is that it was only the, on the PTO agenda as far as an opportunity to get involved, but not something we were separately tracking, 'cause the people who were volunteering were very much in the thick of things. So they were ... Like, I think the second time that I was on the, the participate in the strategic planning process, I was a leader in multiple buildings, so multiple PTA units. So Lindsay Lyons: that makes sense that your representative kind of brought things back, brought opportunities back, and then it could become an agenda item. It sounds like that's, that's awesome. Um, I'm also thinking back to when you o- originally started answering this question, thinking about the skills and also resources and kind of institutional knowledge that people employed by the school have that easily could support the PTO, but often the PTO doesn't have access to or the training on. Have you been part of any sort of, like, skill building or resource allocation or resource building, institutional knowledge sharing that was helpful? And how might leaders in schools learn from that? Christina Hidek: Well, yes, that's why I started my company. So I've totally built out resources because I saw that. Do you know the difference between a PTA and a PTO? Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, but I only learned that from listening to you on another podcast. So can you share- Okay. ... with our audience? Christina Hidek: So it's like, okay, good. I wanna go over this just 'cause there's so many misconceptions. In the US, there are over 60,000 different PTOs. So PTOs are parent teacher organizations, but they don't That maybe that's not their name. They could maybe be a parent council, a homeschool association, a parent and teacher club, a parent c- council. Like, there's a gajillion different names. Mostly independent organizations. They are not part of a larger umbrella organization, unless they happen to be a PTA. So a PTA is a parent teacher association, which is affiliated with the state and national PTA. So those parent groups all funnel up into the national PTA. So they have some training, some guidance, some, um ... There are standards of affiliation that they have to meet every year, so kind of, like, they have to pay membership dues. They have to be, have in- insurance. They have to be up to date with filing their 990, you know, all the tax forms to stay compliant. Because by virtue of being a PTA, they, they kind of inherit their 501[3] nonprofit status from the parent organization of the state PTA. PTOs are independent. So all PTAs are PTOs, but not all PTOs are PTAs. So many people think that because you're a PTO, that you have access to resources, and that is false unless you are a PTA. And even if you are a PTA, you might not have everything you need. Because these are volunteer organizations, there is a shocking lack of infrastructure to ensure that the incoming leader or volunteer g- has the same access to the resources as the person before. There is not a mechanism for capturing all of the knowledge from the volunteer to, like, kind of download what's in their brain and put it in a format that someone new to the group can take on, which is super frustrating. And so that's kind of why, why I started PTO Answers, quite honestly, 'cause I thought, "It shouldn't be this hard." I personally was frustrated. I wrote a book last year, which is bananas pants, 'cause I never thought I would write a book. So it's the, um, Principal's Parent Group Playbook, and it tells you everything that, uh It's basically PTO school in a book for school leaders on what to kind of expect from a PTO or PTA, what their role is, how the PTO or PTA should kind of be set up, what they should be looking for in order to make sure that everything's on the right track, and then gives, like, a breakdown of, like, specifically what to do, uh, for an ent- entire calendar year so that you, you kind of know what, what to expect. Can you guess the last time a book about PTOs or PTAs was written? Exclusively about PTO or PTAs. Like, not, like, a one-line sentence reference in a family engagement book. 1920. There was a republishing in, uh, like, I think maybe six years ago, but it was from that 1920 or 1926 book. Lindsay Lyons: So in all of your writing and research and building all of this stuff, are there particular skills or institutional knowledge pieces that you have found to be critical, but, but often families don't have that coming in? Like, they haven't had the access, they haven't had the institutional knowledge, experience, or exposure. Like, w- can you share, like, one or two of those things just so leaders and teachers can be aware that this is something that they're gonna need to support? Christina Hidek: Parents don't understand how schools work. The last time they were probably in a school was when they were a student. Things have changed. Expectations have changed. Ways of teaching have changed. And that once you have kind of, not empathy, but just, like, a baseline understanding of that and going, "Oh, yeah, their perspective is from 20, 30 years ago. Now I get..." Like, you gotta have just a little- I guess it is empathy. Saying, you know, "This is where they're coming from," and, "Oh, I might need to have a little patience with them to kind of bring them up to speed of how we, how we do things here." Lindsay Lyons: There's a lot of communication required. So I'm thinking about, you know- Yeah ... leader communication, teacher communication. Whether it is through students, sending things home through students, but also just directly to families to say things like, "These are our goals. These are our school values. This is our bell schedule." That like, uh, all of the, the logistics, but also to invite family members into the school perhaps. Christina Hidek: Yes, yes. And it's, it's beyond, I think, the logistics, 'cause that's easy enough, I think, to communicate. But to, it's more of the way that we do things here, and the, the culture pieces. There was one school and a new principal came in, and she happens to be a micromanager. That school leader was not willing to trust or empower the parents to kind of do their own thing. And it's a shame because par- parent participation really has struggled at that school since she's been there. The high school PTA had a principal who didn't really care for the PTA, and he acted like we were just wasting his time, and he was just very difficult to work with. They brought in a new principal, and it was a totally different experience, and that was my first year of being the president at that PTA unit. And it was probably one of my most favorite years because the principal just said, "Let's, yeah." Like said yes to everything. Was like, "Let's do it." I was like, "Can seniors wanna have a lock-in for after prom?" He's like, "Sure." I was like, "W- wait, I'm sorry. You think that this is gonna be cool to have 250 kids overnight?" He goes, "You know what? We, we already did it earlier with the football team, so like, what's more kids?" And I was like, "Oh my God, I love you." So, and it wasn't just 'cause he said yes. It was because we would meet and talk about what was going on, but also we got to know each other personally. And, um, I would bring him treats. He was a really funny guy. I'm talking about him in the past tense 'cause unfortunately he did pass away, which was so traumatic for our school community. But I've had the experience of working with three different principals in that building, and boy, there are such differences. What's really important to know is that the, the parents are coming in. Maybe they don't have resources, and maybe you need to be the catalyst to get that because it can help with your own sanity. So even though the PTO, maybe they could find it, maybe you can like solve some of your own problems by going, "Here." Here, go, go to PTO Answer. She has got like, all these different blog posts so that it can help guide them so that they are in a position to then help you with your building goals or professional goals. Lindsay Lyons: I'm hearing a lot of feeling like you're not in it together is really frustrating when the ... you get that kind of vibe from the administrator. But it can be transformative maybe when the leader is actually in, in true partnership, willing to not just listen to what you're trying to say and, like, truly value your perspective, but also being willing to try something that might initially seem uncomfortable. Are there things you would add? Christina Hidek: Oh my gosh, but yeah, you don't have time for that, 'cause we'd be here for like, weeks. 'Cause I have a lot to say about that. 'Cause it's so ... It's more ... PTOs are more complex than it ... they appear on their face. Like, on the face it, it, of things, it looks like they're just party planners or event planners or fundraisers, but really their purpose goes far beyond that. And that's ... I- if you're just stopping there, if that's all you're getting to, where you're not truly including them as partners, then that's a missed opportunity for you. Lindsay Lyons: Really appreciate that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. As we move to close, we've talked about a lot of things. What is one thing that you would encourage perhaps a, a family member to do once they end the episode and/or, like, a, a leader or teacher, someone from the school employee side? Christina Hidek: As a parent, look at your school. Look at your child. What do you w- how do you wanna make their next school year more awesome? And w- what role can you play in that? Is it that you wanna volunteer in the classroom? Is it that you would like to bring theater in to, uh, to better support... I don't know. I have a friend who, her child is in, oh geez, fifth grade, and she helps work on the high school, like, set design and do- and does that, in addition to the other work she does for the PTA. Um, and then as the school employee side, what do you want that you need help with that you would be open to having help from the PTO with, or a parent? Doesn't even have to be the PTO. Let's, let's broaden it out. But there are ... And if you think there's no one to help, then, uh, we need to have some conversations with parents. W- make open house, that your goal, to find one parent to help you. You know, when I was writing my book, one of the things I, I discovered that what is now the STEM program at the high school was initially funded by the PTA, that a teacher asked for some money, the PTA was there to fund that. And, like, how awesome is that? Lindsay Lyons: That's super cool. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. One of the questions I like to ask at the very end, just for fun, could be about what we're talking about, could be totally something else. What is something that you personally have been learning about lately? We love learning on this show. Christina Hidek: Ooh, I do love learning. I'm trying to think. I am an- I am, uh, I love to learn about things and nerd out about things. Um, I've read an entire book about olive oil. Okay, I can talk at length about olive oil because of this book. It, it was so knowledgeable. And you might think, "How does that impact you?" Well, I know how to buy a really good olive oil now and not spend a fortune. I will give you the, um, too long, didn't read version. Uh, Costco, their house brand, Kirkland Signature, actually is a very high quality olive oil that is not cut with fillers, because that is something we do. Apparently chocolate is more regulated in the United States than olive oil. I- Lindsay, it's, it's a whole thing. I highly recommend that book. I think it's called Extra Virginity. Every once in a while I make a list of things that I would like to learn, and then I'll, like, go look for it. For example, I want to get on stages to talk to principals and teachers at conferences, and I was like, "Well, I need to up my public speaking game, and I need to quit saying 'um' so much." So I Googled that, went onto YouTube, and this, the one video, his suggestion was just to close your mouth at the end of a sentence. I tried it. It works. Lindsay Lyons: I'm gonna borrow that now. Thank Christina Hidek: you. You can't say "um" if your mouth is closed, and I'm like, that is so, like, functionally simple. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for sharing both your process and the things you're learning. I learned a lot from you. Finally, where can listeners and the audience members learn more about you? I know you mentioned ... We both mentioned you have a website. You mentioned you have a book. What are the places people can go to check that out? Christina Hidek: Yeah. So I- the primary resource where all the awesomeness can be found in, for my world is at PTOanswers.com. I have freebies, like, uh, for principals, I have a PTO family opportunity, family engagement opportunity assessment that helps you maybe re-approach your PTO to look at maybe where you're overlooking, uh, opportu- for potentials, I think, for to get more families engaged. For teachers, I have a freebie that covers five no- no-brainer ways to improve the teacher-parent group relationship. I've really framed it as a parent relationship, but it's how to get, like, it's everything the PTO or PTA wishes that teachers would understand. And then for parent volunteers, pick a role and there is some guidance for you. Like, if you were a room parent, president, treasurer, uh, because- Everyone is capable of serving in a PTO, no matter their background, no matter their experience or education level. Everyone should consider becoming involved just because of the benefits to you personally and your family and your community too. Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Christina, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Christina Hidek: Oh, it was such a fabulous time, and I loved our discussion, Lindsay 
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In this episode, we talk with Molly Arbuthnott, an educator-turned-writer who is now the author of 18 picture books for children. Her stories all have animal characters and often dive into real-life themes that champion the underdog and help build up self-confidence and self-belief.
As a champion of children’s literacy, she shares her insights into the transformational power of picture books for children and adults alike. Molly advocates for a shift in perspective regarding how these books are perceived and utilized in education and at home. The Big Dream Molly's big dream is that of self-belief, in line with the theme of the “underdog” in many of her own books. She also wants to redefine picture books as a resource not just for children, but as literature that holds value for all ages. She aims to transform picture books from entry-level reading material into versatile and profound stories that resonate universally. Mindset Shifts Required To fully appreciate the value of picture books, Molly suggests breaking away from the idea that they’re only a starting point for young readers. Instead, picture books have rich narratives that offer opportunities for all readers to explore complex themes. It's about understanding the depth possible in art and story, encouraging all participants to view picture books as tools for lifelong learning and conversation. Action Steps Picture books can be a powerful tool for learning and growth in both the home and school settings. Molly recommends these steps to start using picture books to their full potential. Step 1: Don’t “dumb it down.” Molly’s own books feature deep themes like death, and she believes it’s a disservice to our children to gloss over things they will have to experience at some stage in life. Instead, the picture book format makes it possible to engage in these important topics in an age-appropriate way. Don’t shut down questions, but engage in those conversations. Step 2: Introduce picture books in varied settings beyond primary education, such as in literature circles in higher grades or within family reading time. Increased exposure to picture books helps people of all ages engage in and learn from them. Step 2: Encourage children to interpret picture books independently and express their unique perspectives through discussions. It’s also important to allow children to pick their own books and make choices around what they want to read and learn. Step 3: Allow picture books to lead to broader conversations about real-world concepts, current events, and personal growth, exploring topics that matter to children and their communities. This can be particularly helpful when engaging in high-emotion topics around identity. Picture books, like those that use animals as main characters, can help us engage in topics without attributing identity markers Step 4: Keep it fun! Picture books are full of joy, and stories bring the imagination alive. Lean into this. Challenges? A significant challenge lies in balancing adult-driven book markets with fostering children's preferences and choices in reading materials. Ensuring that children are actively involved in selecting what they read and discussing it can counteract this imbalance and empower young minds. One Step to Get Started Begin by selecting a picture book that resonates with a current topic or theme your children are encountering. Use this book as a springboard to facilitate discussions and relate the narrative to personal experiences or broader societal issues, thereby making reading a more interactive endeavor. Stay Connected You can find out more from Molly and her books over on her website and Instagram. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing their course Animal Story Kit with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 261 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Molly, welcome to the Time for Teacher Shift podcast. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited you're here. I am really excited, particularly as this is airing in a kind of miniseries directed towards both teachers and families, thinking about families supporting kids as they read, whether they're reading picture books, whether they're, um, you know, chapter books. Whatever they're reading, I'm really excited about your background as an educator and involvement with books specifically. Um, that's kind of what is on my mind as we enter this conversation. Is there anything on your mind as we enter the conversation that you want people to be aware of, kind of as we continue? Um, not off the top of my head. I'm just really happy to be here chatting about the joy of picture books. Awesome. All right. Well, so I think my first question is the first question I have for every guest, which is really in line with freedom dreaming, which Dr. Bettina Love describes as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. What is that dream that you hold, whether it be for education, for kids' reading lives, for picture books broadly? Like, what's that dream for you? Um, the dream, I guess, well, all of my books are kind Molly Arbuthnott: of about the underdog who kind of comes out on top, so I guess it's the dream of, of self-belief, the American dream. And also, um, that a, the dream of, of a picture book being not just a children's book, but a book for, that anyone, um, reading it can get something out of. I think it's really important for adults to start embracing more picture books. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I can say actually just yesterday, colleagues of mine, all educators, are, were in this group chat around picture books, and like we're reading it for ourselves, not even for the kids. Molly Arbuthnott: Oh, amazing. Well, it's great. I mean, it's not... I, I think it's really the fault of the way we... This is going off piece a bit, but it's the fault of, well, not the fault, but it's the way that we teach reading, where the picture book's kind of the bottom rung of the ladder. And, and you then, you start with the picture book, and then you progress onto the chapter book or the bigger book. But really, the picture book should be top of the ladder because it is the one that most people can get something out of Lindsay Lyons: I, I love that. And as a former high school teacher who used picture books in our class- Yeah ... I can say the kids are really into it, too. Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. They, well, it, it uses a particular part of the brain, and it's a really easy way for particularly with parents having less time in, in modern life to read with their kids or having other priorities, it's a really easy way to engage with a child, um, just by looking at, uh, because it's kind of, it gives the kid kind of, it's a two-way interreaction rather than it just being from one person. So it's a really fun bonding experience beyond just being a story. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so you've already kind of shared a bunch of mindsets or mindset shifts for- ... people. I think that's brilliant. Are there any other things that people should be aware of or have a sp- particular mindset around as they, particularly families I'm thinking of, that are reading with their kids as they encounter this situation where, where they're opening a picture book together. Is there a particular thing they should have in mind as they read? Molly Arbuthnott: To not dumb it down. So I very much have, uh, death, uh, in my books. I've got all sorts of concepts that are quite, uh, deep. Um, and I think that it's a great disservice to a kid if we kind of gloss over things that they potentially or definitely will experience at some stage in life. I mean, it's, it's in an animal form, all my books, so it's kind of a degree of separation. It's not as in your face as it would be otherwise. But I think they're still really important topics, and to not, if the kid raises it, to not just brush it, brush over it, but to actually take the time to answer their questions and, and sort of give them a sense of understanding, because then they'll be much more confident in it as a subject if they kind of know. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. And so is there a particular either scene or storyline from one of your books that you wanna give us an example of? Like, here's something that happens in the book, here's how a child might respond, here's how you as a family member m- might respond or engage in that conversation. Molly Arbuthnott: Sure. Well, I mean, there are two quite deep stories off the top of my head, I'd say. I, I've written, for anyone, uh, sort of zoning into my books for the first time, there are 18 different picture books, um, about different animals. They all deal with different concepts, different stories, different locations, different adventures. But, um, the one that springs to mind, Angus the Robin, is about a, um, there's a house and there's an accident essentially that happens. And suddenly, I don't, I don't, uh- Expressly say what's there, but I say that there are blue flashing lights, and then it's up to the reader to interpret that as they choose. Um, but then so that kind of leaves it fairly open to chat and discussion about what the blue flashing lights could be, where they could be going, why, what they could be taking, and that kind of thing. And then in, um, in Athena the Cheetah, there is actually a physical death. The- or two brothers, one of them, um... I, I lived in Kenya for a while, so that's what inspired that story. One of them, um, one of the boys gets his foot, um, uh, there's a, there's a crocodile in the river, and the crocodile gets one of the brothers. So again, obviously chances are most readers will not be beside crocodile-infested lakes when they're reading the story. So it's not a literal kind of discussion, but it's a discussion about importance of, of staying together and what happens if someone you really care about has an accident. And accidents do happen all the time, um, and so you can maybe sort of switch it into being an accident that they might relate to or understand and how you can deal with it and, and understand. In the story, I'm not gonna give the story away completely, but the boy who's left, he goes, uh, mute. And so then as well that could lead to the discussion with parents as to why he doesn't talk because, I mean, the kids might come acro- there are, uh, pe- kids who you find don't talk for whatever reason, and so then that can lead into discussion about that and why they might not be talking and what you can do to help and what they might be feeling inside and all that kind of thing. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for sharing those examples. And just I, I love the broadening of how, yes, we read this thing, but then what does that mean f- for these other maybe related concepts or related- Mm ... applications in your life. I think that's a really nice takeaway for families and teachers to be able to facilitate conversation and sense-making. I, I know also that you are really interested, I think you use the phrase children as gatekeepers. And, and so can you talk about, a little bit about how, like, we as adults can support children in, in making choices around books or, or what that kind of means for you in, in that phrase you use? Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah, well, I, I... it's a really important, um, concept for me because very often as a writer of, I mean, inevitably as a writer of children's books you are kind of having to appeal to two markets because it's the kids who will be reading it, but it's the parents who will be buying it. So it's quite a tricky kind of balance. But it really essentially is you have to be gearing it at what the kids- need, and, and, and they're the ones kind of driving the, um, driving the decisions. It was really because I've started applying for competitions for my books a bit more, uh, constructively this year. It's something that I've never done before, and I kind of was figuring that, well, great, but again, it's the adults kind of driving the demand and driving the books that you see on the shelves, and driving what comes out on top, and driving what wins. And all of these algorithms and things are generated by the people who work rather than by the kids themselves, and how you can shift that. I'm going off to Bologna Book Fair next week, and again, that's a fair for kids books, but it's, it's very much the adults who are there. And so as a kid, I, I mean, you have very, they have very little power inevitably of what they pick and choose to do with their lives. But how to address that kind of power and balance, and to give the kids a bit more say over what it is that they want to read and they want to find out and they want to learn. Because even in a curriculum in school, I mean, you're very much told what to do and think. I mean, up until about six or seven, and then it kind of, there's that shift of when you're supposed to be educated. And I think in some ways it kind of de-educates, because you kind of lose your independence of thought in some ways. Anyway, sorry, I feel I'm segueing a bit. But- I mean, Lindsay Lyons: that's very connected to all the things we talk about on this podcast, so you're in good company. Molly Arbuthnott: Um, but I think it's, I, I, I don't know what the answer is personally, but I feel that there needs to be a way that kids can articulate what it is they want to know. But then in some ways as well, they're figuring out the world, and so they maybe don't know. I mean, it's, in some ways it's a responsibility as a adult who kind of knows a bit more to, um, to articulate what it is you think they want to hear. I mean, an example at the moment from, for me, from my perspective, is I'm having to write, well, I'm, I've been asked to write a story about two guinea pigs, Mocha and Latte, who are in this school, Greenside Primary School, and I'm having to sort of direct it from the guinea pigs' perspective. Um, and try and kind of articulate how, I mean through a guinea pig, how a child would kind of see the world- And I mean, y- uh, you're much more... I think children are very much better at kind of living in the present than an adult, because as an adult, you kind of, not intentionally and not always, but you kind of put all these different layers on top of who you are, just in the nature of how your life kind of, how s- well, not always, but how sometimes your life pans out, that you have layers of parents getting older, layers of properties, layers of travel, layers of work, layers of relationships, layers of... You get all these, um, many, many more layers, and that kind of can, um, it can just cover up kind of your, uh... And, uh, a way to sort of be more in the present and actively appreciating what's around you, because you're covered up with all these layers all the time. So to kind of get into the child's mindset, you have to be very, you have to sort of take all those layers away and be very much aware of your surroundings, aware of what you hear, aware of what you see, and aware of how you interpret it. Because, um, that's the nice thing about books as well, that no one can say what you're seeing or thinking or feeling is right or wrong, because it's just your interpretation, and your interpretation could be the same as the person next to you or it could be completely different. That's kind of the joy of being a independent human being. And so, and so I guess, y- as a writer, you can never satisfy everybody, because everybody's views and opinions are different. But you can make it try to have resonance with as many different people as you can Lindsay Lyons: I love that too from the perspective of e- either a teacher or a family member who is working with kids and, and reading and having that experience of engaging in a picture book with kids, that there is no wrong answer. I think a lot of times in schools, right, it's right or wrong. It's like it's- Mm-hmm ... two and two is four. That is ... Anything else is incorrect. Like, there is a little bit of shyness or fear from students sometimes in speaking up and sharing what their thoughts are because they are fearful that they will be wrong, right? And so I love this idea of art, m- even more broadly beyond picture books, but picture books as a specific representation of art being one of interpretation and one of connection. And I, I also am very much thinking about, like, civics and, and civic conversations, uh, are- Mm-hmm ... I think particularly challenging in the States right now and thinking about how this is a beautiful, um, less emotionally charged perhaps example of how we can talk across different interpretations of a situation i- around picture books and, like, what a great practice opportunity to have different kids read the same book and have a different experience with it and be able to share that. Molly Arbuthnott: Exactly. Yeah, it's kind of a safe space for, um, articulating and, and learning actually to have your own opinion, which is really important and, and that it's all right to think something different from the person Lindsay Lyons: next to you. I'm also envisioning, you know, in high school we do a lot of, like, literature circles around a theme, but it sounds like maybe teachers could also use because you have such a wide range of books, right, that are maybe on particular topics, it might be, okay, we're gonna think about this topic of accidents, for example as you mentioned earlier, and invite students to choose maybe one book that speaks to them and, like, read and engage in, in that book and then be able to have conversations with kids who read different books. Do you think that w- would- Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, that's as well the joy of, um, of, of ... Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you can take a broad subject generally in schools I would say anyway, that's kind of how the curriculum's sort of centered around a broad subject, and then you find books that kind of relate to that in different ways. Um, and even ... I mean, it doesn't i- for, for, um, discussions like that it doesn't necessarily need to be just picture books. I mean, there are wonderful picture books that relate to all sorts of different subjects, but you can get a bit out of, out of a chapter book too. I mean, I feel like the whole, I mean, the whole thing is really to encourage- Uh, creativity and, uh, encourage imagination. And so any way that, that can do that is really good. I mean, my books, I tend to ... They're not super woke. They're kind of sticking to traditional values, which ... Just because that's kind of how I am. And, and for me, I kind of had to write about things I know rather than trying to make it something you don't know, 'cause I feel like you fall short in, in that respect. Lindsay Lyons: Certainly there are a lot of school districts who have, like in the United States anyways, like very much, like legal pressures for different things they can and can't talk about. So I think that will be appreciated there. And I think there's also so much connection to, like you said, in, in the broadening span, like people can have an entry point into whatever current event might be happening or whatever is happening identity-wise with them or their, their friends, um, to be able to enter into conversations and expand them beyond the book as well. Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah. Well, I mean, the nice thing as well, though, about an animal is that it's not irrespective of, of your, your stance on, on, on sort of who you are as a person. It, again, is a space where you can be anything because it's why I choose animals, because they're not high-bound by the rules and regulations that you are as an adult or as, as a person of having to sort of go to get up, go to work, go to school, come have lunch, go home. It gives you a lot more creative freedom, and with that it means that then you can have the freedom of interpretation. But going back to the themes you were saying, one of them is, um, I deal with climate change with David the Pizzly Bear, and that's about this bear who gets lost or goes out on an adventure and gets lost in, um, a, an ice field. And then, and then the ice melts and then he, they have to swim back home in order to get home. So that can open up about ... It's based on David Attenborough. Um, so again, that can lead to interpretation of him. And then also that, um, uh, ice fields, why they're melting and, and what we can do to help and to, to sort of stop the, um, climate crisis. But again, it has a happy ending, so it's kind of not all ... It's showing that even though things might be going wrong in the world, you, you kind of work around it and you just make it a new concept of it. And then actually also Conrad the Spider, that's a guitar-playing spider, and that, um, he loses his legs. He uses his legs as his guitar strings, then he loses his guitar and so he loses his legs. And it's about how you can go from great fame and fortune to being very poor and how people- the community around you kind of react and interpret that because, um, inevitably you, I mean, you're in- you're always kind of influenced a little bit by what people think and feel, and how you can And so then you can build resilience kind of up against that. And also they end up in a crisp packet, um, with a ladybird because obviously a spider's much smaller than a human, so that becomes their home. And then that can lead into concepts that, well, you can, um, just have an adventure kind of with a crisp packet or in your wall, in your garden behind your house. You don't need to, um, that especially when you're a kid or even when you're an adult as well, you can still have adventures without needing to travel to the other side of the world. I mean, it's all kind of in your mindset. So every day can be an adventure if you want it to be. It doesn't sort of have to be this great going on holiday that's the release. You can just make that be part of your day-to-day life. It's just a kind of different interpretation. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, like the expansiveness of how differently you could interpret that. Like, my brain immediately was going to, you know, uh, the crazing of, crisis of people being unhoused and like you know, like, well, you, you know, you could look up all of that research as well. So I think, you know, whatever your kid or kids, if you're in a class, right, are interested in, I think there's a lot of, like, follow-up research you could do to your point about the climate change and, like, who is this particular person that it's based off of? But also what are the, what's the information right now, and, like, how do we look at graphs over time? Like, there's so many jumping o- it's like a jumping off point into so many different areas, which is really cool. Oh, thanks. Well, Molly Arbuthnott: yeah, I hope so. I mean, I can't say I'm a massive environmental ... Well, I, I don't, in that respect, I don't preach what I teach, in that I do still travel. I have to travel quite a lot for work. Um, and so I do take planes, I do take, I do drive, I do do things that probably aren't so good for the environment. But then I balance it out in other ways. I mean, no one, we do still have to, have to live. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, great points. Um- Any- anything else you would like to tell, uh, families, educators? Any, um, advice that you have for engaging students and letting students lead the picture book conversations before we move to our final closing questions? Molly Arbuthnott: Um, just to keep it fun. Um, I find particularly with my work, I've always promised myself that if I ever stop enjoying what I'm doing, I'll change something. Um, for me, I spend- Most of my time, uh, doing my books, doing my work. And so it's really important for me that I really enjoy what I do, and I feel very lucky that I've been able to find that because a lot of people, um, a lot of people don't. And, uh, so I try and put joy into the books, so I'm hoping that the joy radiates out of the books. And then make it fun when you're sharing it. So I've got loads of costumes, I've got loads of resources that if anyone wants, I can very happily share, that bring each of the stories alive. And I love coming and reading the books and, and to kind of just let your imagination go. So, um, anything, anything can really happen because they're pretend animals, pretend places. Try and as well kind of think what the... When you're reading it, think from, try and kind of transform yourself into the animal that you're supposed to be being, and then it will give a lot more authentic, um, interpretation. That's Lindsay Lyons: great. Thank you for that advice. I'm, I'm imagining that, you know, someone is, is preparing to read perhaps for bedtime a story after listening and engaging with this episode, uh, and they're, they're ready for that now. Oh, good. Is there, uh- Thanks. Something that you have been... This is a fun question we like to ask all of our guests 'cause they're all lifelong learners. Something you have been learning about lately, either related to your work or just completely different. Ah, gosh, that's quite a good question. Um, well, this Molly Arbuthnott: school that I'm doing the guinea pig story about was designed by Goldfinger, like, you know, James Bond Goldfinger. So I've been researching, um, Goldfinger a fair bit recently. Um, and also I'm teaching, I'm learning the ukulele so that I can, um, play it when I'm doing, uh, story events. So I've been, uh, learning a bit of music as well. Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that is so- ... fun. I love it. And so you mentioned you have things, resources in addition to your books. You have all of your books. Where can people go to get that information, to connect with you online? Is there a place they Molly Arbuthnott: can- Well, I've got my website Um, and you can send a message through that. I have all the books available through my website. I don't think I have the resources. I could... I need to, I need to, um, work on that. Travelers is... Or the more books you do, I thought it would get way easier, but it gets so much harder. There's just so many things to suddenly think about. Um, and so it kind of eats into, uh, um, um, time a bit. But yeah, so I would, um, look on my website. They're available on Amazon as well and all good wholesalers. And I, uh, I'm coming actually to New York, because you're in Boston, so not too far away. Um, my publisher's in New Jersey. Uh, I do an annual book launch, and so I'm coming to New Jersey and I'm going to launch in September, and we hire a paddle boat and paddle around the Hudson River, and it's always very fun. So, so reach out to me for that if you'd be interested, and the more the merrier. Um, and it's always just really nice to hear from people. Um, and so do, uh, do send me a message. Maybe you could send... If, uh, whenever I go and do events, I always ask the kids what their favorite animals are, and it kind of can help inspire. Um, uh, if they have a favorite animal, it might end up in a, in a future subsequent book perhaps. That Lindsay Lyons: is awesome. Molly, thank you so much for your time and conversation today. Oh, well, thank you. Gosh, it's gone in a flash, but it's been lots of fun. |
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
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