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In this episode, Dr. Barbara Cirigliano discusses how PLCs are critical for early childhood educators and shares ideas on how to do them well. We talk about appropriate assessment methods for young children, the critical role of collaboratively developed standards and the transformative power of vertical alignment in curriculum planning.
Dr. Barbara Cirigliano has been in Early Childhood Education for her whole career, as a teacher, coach, and principal. She authored the book, Success for Our Youngest Learners, and she loves to work with schools and their youngest learners. The Big Dream Early childhood education is fully integrated into the professional learning community process. Educators assess young learners in developmentally appropriate ways, setting them up for high achievement from the start. All early educators learn the PLC process and use that process to develop teacher practice and to help kids learn at the highest levels. Mindset Shifts Required Leaders and educators of older children should recognize early childhood education as an integral part of the educational continuum. A big “aha” for teachers in this work is the importance of consistency and equity in standards across classrooms. Action Steps to Take in PLCs to Determine Essential Standards Step 1: Review state standards and essential standards with a team. Step 2: Individual teachers pick out the ones they really want students to learn. Step 3: Come together to reach consensus on what you will all teach. Step 4: Create job-alike, vertical curriculum teams and align curricula vertically from Pre-K to Kindergarten and up. (Early childhood educators should be part of these district-wide PLCs!) Challenges?
One Step to Get Started Arrange meetings where teachers can begin discussing essential educational matters, paving the way for trust and collaboration. "Just start teachers getting used to coming together at a certain time, being on time for that meeting and talking about important things," she advises. This initial step is crucial for setting the foundation for more detailed work on standards and assessments. Stay Connected You can connect with Dr. Cirigliano via email at [email protected] To help you implement these ideas in your context, Dr. Cirigliano is sharing several of the reproducibles from her book with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 173 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT 0:00:03 - Lindsay Lyons Dr Barbara Sirigliano, so nice to have you on the Time for Teachership podcast. Thank you for inviting me. I am so excited for our conversation today because I think the little ones don't get talked about enough, and so, thinking about the PLC process, particularly with educators of young children, and particularly as a parent right now of a two-year-old, I'm really, really in that space and so really interested in you know what does that look like for young learners? So before we even like dive into that conversation, I'm really curious to know is there anything beyond the traditional bio or anything that people should know about you that you want to kind of anchor our conversation in? 0:00:43 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Not really. I do. Now have three grandchildren five, three and one and so I really focus in on I'm really able to focus in on early childhood and in watching them develop. It just hits home to me and makes what I do seem more important than ever. 0:01:03 - Lindsay Lyons What a beautiful connection. I love when it goes beyond the professional bio to like we are full human beings with many people in our lives. 0:01:10 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right, yeah, so just watching, you know. And my daughter-in-law says should he be doing this right now? He's only 18 months. How many words should he have? And you know, my daughter with her three-year-old should she go to preschool right now or should you know what should we do? Why is she doing this? Is this okay? So it's really fun to be able to see them grow and develop, because I love that age. That's my favorite age. 0:01:34 - Lindsay Lyons That's incredible and they have such a good resource to be able to ask you Right, I know. Oh, awesome. Well, one of the first big questions I usually like asking guests is this idea of freedom, dreaming. So Dr Bettina loves talks about it as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, which I think is a beautiful phrase. And so, considering that, what is that big dream that you hold for the field of education, either broadly or specific to the younger ages? 0:02:04 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano I think that it I would focus more in on early childhood. I think that early childhood has been forgotten, and especially in the. When you talk about the PLC process, because the in a professional learning community, you know we assess children and so many early child teachers says we don't assess that's developmentally inappropriate. We don't test kids, we don't do this. So you know, and I would have said that 20 years ago, before I started and before my school became a professional learning community and now I think you really need to assess and there's a right way to assess young children, and so my hope and dream is that all early educators learn that process and use that process to develop and to make kids learn to high expectations, to the highest levels, and it starts at early childhood. You know their brain is developing so fast and so much is going on that that's where we need to really really start. My middle school principal, whenever we had big team meetings or whatever, would always say tell your teachers, thank you, barb, for giving them all these kids such a great head start. So she understood that and she was appreciative of the work that the early childhood educators in my district did. 0:03:32 - Lindsay Lyons I love that you really that you shared that story, but also that you center so much of the early childhood in the continuum of the district right Like we're incorporating early childhood educators in conversations in PLCs that are district-wide or otherwise, and I think that's a huge, maybe mindset shift for leaders. I'm curious if you know what are the mindset shifts associated with this work. What's kind of the aha moment that you've seen, even in a district leader or someone who's maybe more of a building leader in this work? 0:04:06 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano I think that for so long, special ed and early childhood has been oh, they're down there, they're down the hall, they do this, they do their own thing. And I think what really comes to mind is I worked with a school in Atlanta and I had all the four-year-old teachers together and I said to them so what does it look like? Or I had the kindergarten teachers together too what does it look like when your students write their name, what is proficient? And one teacher said well, if I can read it, it's fine. And another teacher said no, no, no, no, no, it has to be capital letters, finger space, blah, blah, blah. And I said do you see what's happening here? This isn't equitable. And they're like oh yeah, when you tell a child to spell cat and you say spell cat. Or you say spell cat, it's not equitable. And so when you assess kids, we really need to work on that with young children, and we never did before because we never talked about assessing kids as a team. So I think it's the equity that the light turns on for some kindergarten teachers. And I had the principal at the school tell me well, when my child had this teacher, they said they knew the ABCs. And then the next year they didn't know the letters of the alphabet because they were assessing them differently. And parents notice that. Parents wonder and the principal's like oh well, let me check this out. 0:05:41 - Lindsay Lyons Yeah, oh, my gosh, I love, I love that you went there, because one of my favorite chapters of your book was chapter four, where you talk about, like, literally breaking down that question of PLCs, of like what is it that we want students to know and be able to do, right, right. And I think that that really is a struggle for a lot of teams and a lot of you know schools and communities to just know how to even approach that conversation. Do you mind kind of walking us through, like what are the steps that a team could take to determine those essential standards? 0:06:15 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Well, what we did is. The first thing we did is we looked at the state standards for kindergarten and at that time there were no early childhood standards 20 years ago so we had to crank them down. So you need to look at your state standards for early childhood. Or you need to look at some people use creative curriculum and they have a ton of standards and you need to go through the process of individually teachers go through and mark what is most important Because I talk about. You can't teach all of the standards, they can't learn them all, so you need to pick out the ones you really, really want them to learn, and so the teachers individually go through that. They're on their own. And then they come together and say how about this one? Who said this 4.1 was most important? Nobody, okay, not one we're going to worry about. Or everyone agreed on this one. So this is one we're going to worry about Because you need to have about a third of the total number of standards as your essential standards. That doesn't mean you're not going to teach the other ones, but it means these are the ones you are assuring that students will learn, and that's important for going on to the next grade. My first year I had 15 kindergarten classrooms and I looked at the report cards and saw so much variance and these kids went to all different first grade teachers and they go. Some of them know this and some of them know that and some of them know this. So these are the things that you're going to tell the four year old preschool teacher, you're going to tell the kindergarten teacher. You can tell the first grade teacher. They know these, they know these. So you don't have to start over at the beginning. You don't have to obsess them to find out. I'm telling you they know these. So when you go through that process, you decide which ones are most important and you really have real. You have to do it as a team. You can't take mine from my old schools and use mine because you have to talk about them. My early childhood teachers talked about shapes for about 25 minutes. What are the most important shapes? A triangle, square, circle, you know? No, a triangle. They don't need to know a triangle when they're three. They need to know a triangle when they're four. There's no right or wrong. They just have to agree on what's most important and what. If it's a triangle, then it's a triangle and everyone has to agree to agree. It's not. It's more consensus than 100%, so I think that's important. 0:08:51 - Lindsay Lyons I love that and just the specific example about the shapes and I think in the book you talked about colors. Right Like these are tangible things we can talk about. 0:08:58 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right, right, right. You don't think well, you know, I mean all those things. I have the background experience to know this works. I've, we've, done it. I know how the conversations go. Sometimes they're not pretty, but I've seen it in action and I've seen how kids do better. 0:09:22 - Lindsay Lyons So yeah, I wanted to touch on that because you brought it up about the assessments, right, and I think you shared in the story, just a story in the book, thinking about. I think it was your child who was really upset about the bubble filling out. Yeah, do you want to share that story? We're not doing that. 0:09:41 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano We're not doing the bubble choices. I mean, the teacher was shocked. How am I going to know what he knows? I go lots of other ways, surprise, surprise. So you know, assessment is important, but it needs to be done appropriately and everyone has to agree on how it's done, because it has to be done in a pretty similar fashion and at the same time similar fashion and at the same time. 0:10:09 - Lindsay Lyons So yeah, do you mind talking through a couple of those examples? Because actually, as I was a former high school teacher and I was thinking, wow, those assessment options are assessment options I could use in high school as well, like they're not exclusive to the younger grades. 0:10:18 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right. So ways to assess children you're talking about. Lots of times we do observation assessments and children might be playing and you might say today I'm gonna have everyone go through this center where it's a math center and it's counting, and I'm just gonna sit and watch or give a prompt same prompt everybody's giving count this, these blocks for me, how many can you count? How many you see? And the prompt has got to be similar. It can't be one teacher says count the blocks for me. The other teacher can't say count one, two, three, four, five. It has to be similar. But while they're playing you do that and I used to just record things on a sticky note and pile them on my desk and by the end of the day I had a million. So you all kind of decide how you're going to do that. You can also do more, a more formal way of assessing young children in small groups and have them all sit at your table, like in a reading table in kindergarten. You can have them all sit there and you can, one by one, have them point to words or point to letters or anything like that. So you can do a small group, you can do observation and you can do an activity that's totally geared at assessing, but it's not a paper and pencil assessment, it's not a filling in the bubbles. So I think it's sometimes a lot harder for teachers of young children to assess, because some days a young child will know all the letters of the alphabet and the next day they won't. So I talked to teachers about part of it is your teacher education, your gut feeling too. They didn't get it today because you know they got off the bus crying and they were hungry and whatever you know. But I know in my heart they know them. The other piece is that when I talked to kindergarten teachers they did a letter recognition assessment and they wanted like 95% of the kids to know all the letters and when they did the assessment one teacher had four students that were on the cusp. They only missed one letter and they knew what that letter was and they were able to really focus on it for the next week to get them to that point. Instead of going over all the letters, you really get a specific item to really make sure that students learn. So you know. 0:12:44 - Lindsay Lyons I love those examples, I love how concrete they are. 0:12:47 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Just like this is doable right, we can, it is doable, it is doable. And that's me. I'm the example queen. I don't tend to know it all, but I, you know, and I think I'm more believable to teachers because I have that experience. I've been sitting there, you know. I sent 200 report cards off to first grade and it said your child does not know all the letters of the alphabet. Well, which ones? Which ones don't they know? You know? Right, yeah. So that became really important and that's why assessment is so great, it's so wonderful, it's so useful. It's so useful. It guides your instruction, it's telling you how we're going to continue on instructing these children. 0:13:34 - Lindsay Lyons So yes, I love that that's such an integral part of the PLC process and thinking about like coming together to look at the data to identify the things we need to do next right, like a little action research process, and that I think that's so important because a lot of teachers, I think, get in the weeds of this is particularly in the older grades. I'm not sure about this in the younger grades, but you know we have this curriculum to cover, so we must proceed right, as opposed to the pause. Let's understand what's going on. What does the data say? How do we respond? 0:14:10 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right, when those kindergarten teachers got together about the letters of the alphabet, there were four classrooms and each classroom had two or three students that didn't know, like B and D, you know, because of the reversals and all that. So they took those four, two, four, six kids into a group and did interventions with those students, just those, and one teacher worked on those letters with those kids. So the other kids didn't have to suffer through that, you know, and that's how they learned them. 0:14:38 - Lindsay Lyons So that makes total sense. 0:14:40 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Yeah, and all kids all of them are all our kids. 0:14:45 - Lindsay Lyons Yes, Right Back to those equity roots. Right, that's so good. And I think the other big thing that I was an aha for me when I was reading your book was thinking about the organization of PLCs and thinking about the inclusion of early childhood educators in vertical curriculum teams, I think is what you were calling them. They're like the job alike teachers, right? You know, we all teach social studies, pre-K through five. We're in a team and if there's, you know, four pre-K teachers that you can have one go to each subject area if possible, and we did yeah. Right, can you talk through a little bit about that Cause I think that's a huge mindset shift for some district leaders. 0:15:29 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Well, I think it's important you can take the three-year-old essential standards, four-year-olds and five-year-olds and first grade ones, and you can line them all up on a wall, say in math, and see that there is a continuum. When we did that in our district we did it district-wide all the way up to eighth grade we found out that they were teaching the Civil War in third grade and fourth grade. It's like why are you doing this? Why you know? Oh, we didn't know you were doing that. So I think it's important to be able to share and talk about those types of things, and especially for preschool teachers and early childhood teachers, because so much is developmental. So I think the bottom line is not what do we want these three-year-olds to know and be able to do, but what do we want them to know and be able to do after kindergarten? To go to first grade, because that's where it becomes so much more concrete. And so for first grade, second grade teachers to know maybe they didn't know this at three but and maybe not at four, but they will know it before you get them. So I think looking at that continuum is really helpful and seeing how early childhood teachers teach it, you know. I think that because it's different and some of those strategies first and second grade teachers can use right High school teachers can you? I was going to say high school, probably. So I think for continuity of programming and curriculum it's important and for everyone to see what's coming and what's going, you know where are we going with. This is really important for that vertical alignment. 0:17:06 - Lindsay Lyons Yeah, I love that example of right, like we're teaching the same social studies content into next door grades and we didn't even realize we didn't even know it. 0:17:14 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Yeah, Nobody's teaching this. You know, nobody's teaching this important piece. I thought you were. No, we thought you were so yeah, yeah, what. 0:17:23 - Lindsay Lyons what powerful work to be able to bring people together with that focus and then illuminate some of these things that otherwise, without the structure, you would never identify. Right, like that's right, you wouldn't you wouldn't. 0:17:34 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Yeah, I didn't. 0:17:35 - Lindsay Lyons I got that big scope and sequence when I started teaching and teach it and be on page 17 on October 30th or you're in trouble okay, right, right, I I'm curious to know I'm thinking about the listener who is interested in this, wants to do some of this work but feels like you know it's new, it might be scary, it's a different way of doing things. I'm wondering if you could talk us through, like maybe, a common challenge that you know you've seen educators or leaders face with this work and then like how did they overcome it or what was a strategy they used to kind of work through that or find the good in? 0:18:13 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano I think there's. I think there's a couple challenges. One is for leaders to give the teachers time. So many teachers are used to having their planning time and doing what they want and what they need to do and for some teachers that might be taken away and they're not happy with that because they have to do all these things, because we are overloaded as teachers. So it's up to the educate, the leader, the principal, whatever to find time for teachers to do this, and sometimes it takes throwing away the whole master schedule and starting over, and that's really hard for some teachers, really hard. I could not do the master schedule in my school, I didn't have the brain for it, but I had a team who did it of teachers and they did it and it worked out great. So, however, you need to do that, finding them the time. The other piece is that sometimes leaders have to monitor the work of the team because teachers aren't used to collaborating and talking to each other and new teachers might have the teacher who's been there for 27 years and they're not going to say anything because she's there and she overloads the conversation. So there might need some strategies to be put in place to facilitate those kinds of dialogues within a team meeting and sometimes the leader has to do that. You know if it's the talking stick or the, I don't know. Whatever you know, I want to get everybody's opinion on this and you can't say I agree with her. You have to say something else. So I think that can be really hard the time and talking openly. I had one teacher in a team meeting used to say okay, you guys, you're all going to be really mad at me for saying this, but you know she opened up with that because she was going against what they were talking about. But she was a speaker mind person and I really emphasize when I talk to teams is you cannot go in the school parking lot and talk about this. That's not being a true team member. If you're going to talk in the parking lot, you got to talk about it here and we're not going to go talk about you in the parking lot either. So that whole trust thing takes a while and there's sometimes where leaders of schools have to reshuffle the teams move teachers. You might have fourth grade that's got four bosses and two sitters or whatever, and sometimes you have to reshuffle that and that's hard for teachers to change is really hard for teachers. It's really hard, I'm you know, like we always did know, like we always did it this way. We always did it this way. Well, was that make it right? 0:20:57 - Lindsay Lyons Right, that's the question, right yeah. 0:21:00 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano And to be open. You know, I was like we did some bus thing one time and we did it for two days a bus lineup. It was a disaster. And so as a leader, you need to be able to say oh, this is a mess, I'm sorry, let's try something else. So to be able to teachers know that if it's not working, they need to tell you and they need to fix it. A schedule we didn't do at Arkansas. They started in January, hard for teachers, middle of the year, and they had teachers come for three weeks straight in a row talking about the schedule and what the problems were and what. Three weeks straight in a row talking about the schedule and what the problems were and what wasn't working and what they didn't like about it. Every single teacher and the leadership team fixed it, hallelujah. 0:21:44 - Lindsay Lyons That's such a good example. Yeah, I love that. I think the same with teachers and students, or you got to be able to hear the feedback and change course. 0:21:53 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right, right, going in a different direction. So absolutely. 0:21:58 - Lindsay Lyons So there are so many I just want listeners to know too in your book. So the book is called Success for Our Youngest Learners and I think there's so many tangible things in there where it's like, oh, you don't have an agenda for your PLCs, like here's this data form right, like use this, or you're not sure what a schedule could look like to have people collaborate and meet. Here's an example of schedules that you have Like. You have like the Fist of Five protocol. You have how to create your missions and values. It's so good. I just want listeners to know, like, this is a microcosm of the book in this conversation. This is a microcosm of the book in this conversation. But people need to go get the book and I am wondering, you know for the leader who is, you know, ready to do this, got to go get the book, but wants to do one thing tomorrow before the book comes, that they would really start kind of the foundation building. 0:22:59 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano What would the one thing, as soon as they're done with this episode like they can do it tomorrow what would that one action be? To get started, I think if they could get their teachers at a grade level together to talk about just what they're doing, get them to learn how to come to a team meeting and have some kind of agenda and talking about specific things. Now, you know, so many times teachers go oh, we have a team meeting, what are we going to do there? I don't know. You know, because they have no agenda, even if it's not about PLC things in the beginning, come together, we're going to talk about these four things and then, you know and some teachers have to put the first five minutes as the bitch and moan section we're going to vent now, we're going to all complain and crab and then we're done and then we'll move on. So I think, just to start teachers getting used to coming together at a certain time, being on time for that meeting and talking about important things, so that they have, you know, kind of learned beginning of trusting each other and understanding each other's point of views, then to be able to dive into determining essential standards. So I guess it's finding the time for them to get together is the first thing principals need to do. 0:24:05 - Lindsay Lyons Yeah, I love that. And maybe looking at different I know you link to different things in the book of examples of schedules and stuff maybe doing a little bit of research what could this look like? Or handing it over to your teacher teams, like you said, right? 0:24:16 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Yeah, yeah, you know, and maybe another important piece is forming a leadership team. You know, getting together grade level teachers and having a leadership team who can, who are behind it, who understand professional learning communities are, you know, gung ho about it, and so they can start, you know, working too. So it's not just a leader edict, it's coming from your peers as well, and I think that's that's helpful. 0:24:47 - Lindsay Lyons Definitely. Yes, I totally agree, and I and I just remember the phrase that I think you'd use in the book for one of the kind of come together to talk things that folks did was like shop and share, Like here's how I taught this thing, and then they all shared different ways. They taught something which I find such a cool thing that you could totally do tomorrow right, yeah, you can do that tomorrow. 0:25:07 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano And I always used to start meetings with what I called a whip, without hesitation, invite participation, and I'd throw out a question not school related, not anything just so teachers could learn more about their colleagues. You know, like, what's your favorite sandwich? Go around the table, oh, you like salami. You're kidding me. You know just those kinds of things. Just a crazy question. Your favorite movie, Favorite all-time movie? You know just those kinds of things. Just a crazy question. Your favorite movie, favorite all time movie? Just so we learn a little bit more personal, personal things about the people we work with. We're with them, all you know, in the same building all day, every day. 0:25:44 - Lindsay Lyons So I love that idea. I think about that with students and, you know, culture building at the start of a school year or something Same with teachers, right? Because when we see the humanity in our fellow teachers, if we get into a disagreement about a pedagogical move or this standard should be essential or not, you know we still see the humanity in the person. 0:26:04 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Right right, which I think is really important. You know we're all in this together and you're a human being and you have you had a crabby husband this morning, or a crabby two-year-old, and sorry to hear it. 0:26:14 - Lindsay Lyons So Exactly, exactly, yeah, so I guess this is my next question is a little bit more of the the humanity piece too, getting to know you. So one of the things I love asking every guest this could be related to work and the things we've been talking about, or it could totally be different. What is something that you have been learning about lately? 0:26:35 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Oh, I've really started to a couple things gardening, because I'm retired and so I'm doing gardening at home and I'm going to run out in the yard and do that, learning that. But I'm also doing a lot of learning and thinking about how young children's brains develop, like that cognitive development and how maybe because I've been watching a lot of Dateline too, you know murders and stuff is that at the age of 15, your brain's still not totally developed, your frontal lobe isn't totally developed. So I think that helps people and it helps teachers and helps me understand why young children do some of the things they do, why teenagers do some of the things they do, why young adults do some of the things they do. It's just become really fascinating to me that, just how that develops and what parts develop. 0:27:35 - Lindsay Lyons That is fascinating. Also very excited for your gardening life because I know nothing about that, but I am fascinated by the people who could do it well. 0:27:42 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano I'm working on it. You know it's time consuming but keeps me busy and I can share that experience with my grandchildren. We go out and pick, you know, tomatoes in the summer and things like that, and they really like it. It's down to earth, too, where they are low, low to the ground. 0:27:59 - Lindsay Lyons Yeah, oh my gosh. Yes, I, my car was hit recently and we had it's in the shop, so we had got a rental and my, my kid is just like I like this new car because it's low to the ground. 0:28:10 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Oh, yeah you can get into it yeah. 0:28:14 - Lindsay Lyons We don't think about those things, I know. So the last question I have for you is just people are going to want to get in touch, learn more about you, get the book, that kind of thing. Where would you suggest that they go to learn more about you, connect with you, anything related to that? 0:28:31 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Well, probably through Solution Tree. I'm not, you know, I'm retired, I'm old. I don't have my own web page and my own podcast and my own all my boyfriend's like you need a Twitter account. You need a Twitter account, you know. I just don't have any of those things they can. So they can certainly email me and they can certainly get in touch with Solution Tree. 0:28:56 - Lindsay Lyons Perfect, and we can link to those things in the blog post for this episode. 0:29:00 - Dr. Barbara Cirigliano Yeah, I'm happy to. Why don't I turn my phone off? So I'm happy to. You know, I'm happy to talk to anybody and help anybody out, because I'm really passionate about this and have been for my whole educational career. So I'm I just think this is where it starts, this is where it begins, and if we don't get it right when they're little and give them this joy of learning and give little children the success of oh, I learned this, oh, I can say my ABCs, oh, I can read a book, we don't give them that spark and that joy when they're little, then I don't think they're going to get it for a long time. So I think it's really important. 0:29:42 - Lindsay Lyons Absolutely. Oh my gosh, this has been a wonderful conversation. Dr Strickland, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I enjoyed it. It was great. Thank you so much.
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Time for Teachership is now a proud member of the...AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
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