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I’m thrilled to announce that today my guests are two of my former students—Eliel and Rachel. In this discussion, they talk about their high school experiences as well as how things shifted in college.

Imagining What School Could Be
When I asked each of them what their dream for school is, Eliel responded by saying he wishes school would be a space where students could gain skills that would be useful for them in the real world. Although Math, Science, and English are important, there are so many more subjects that students never have the chance to explore such as learning about cryptocurrency, investing, and culinary skills. It makes him wonder, why can’t we expand student choice in that way? In Rachel’s opinion, a great school experience is one where there is a student-centered curriculum and enough materials in each class to make learning fun and rewarding. Having an advisor or counselor that can assist students with questions or issues is also something she’d like to see. It’s a great point because having systems in place to support students will mean all students, families, and members of the school would rally together to find solutions that work. 

In terms of creating a more personalized learning experience, Eliel imagines that teachers can make this happen by inviting more guest speakers who are experts in niche areas that interest students. For instance, if some students want to hear about what is needed to become a nutritionist, there could be a nutritionist coming to speak to students and answer their questions. Many schools have after-school programs. Creating special after-school programs where kids can learn to play an instrument or language or anything else is a big possibility as well. 

Pay Attention to Students' Interests & Partner With Them
The idea of partnering with students still gets judged as radical but there is a growing number of schools that see the value in trying it. Students are far more likely to participate in the projects, lessons, and discussions when they have a say in how the rules and systems are constructed. Eliel can personally speak to this as someone who used to be in student government. In the past, when he and his group would have meetings with school staff, adult efforts to collaborate and not dismiss student ideas stood out to him. 

Rachel shared that teachers don’t have to worry about trying to pick the perfect lessons for students, just ask students what they’re interested in. Take the guess work out. In high school, she said it was easier to talk directly with the instructor but in college, there was less direct communication. For this reason, it’s a good idea to have assistants and tutors that can help students 1 on 1 if teachers have limited availability. 

“I would like for people to remember that when students go to school, they face so many difficulties and changes they have to go through. Some students may not have the same privileges as other students...So for me, I believe that schools have to create the systems that will benefit all students so that nobody will be left out.”

Moving forward, the first step school leaders should take is really getting to know their students by listening more. Let students take the stage and see how much you can learn from them. From there, work with students to increase equity and introduce new policies that bring a wonderful educational experience to all. 

Thanks for reading! Continue the conversation below in the comment section and join our community of educational visionaries on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to episode 52 of the time for Teacher Ship podcast, I'm so excited for this episode because I'm talking to two of my former students, one whom I had in my educational academic classes and one who I worked with as a student leader and student government, I am so excited for you to hear from Rachel to go to and they are brilliant. They are currently both in college and so they're reflecting back on their high school experiences as well as speaking to their college experiences. I'll let them introduce themselves. So one of the things I want to highlight is I actually interviewed them separately and then edited the footage together and it is eerie how some of their answers parallel one another, having not actually been in the same conversation. And so I'm really excited for you to hear kind of the themes that come up as well as the different responses to the same questions that they had. So without further ado, let's dive into the episode and let's listen to some students. Hi, I'm lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive, I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

00:01:23
If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a pro Principal Superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerd ng out about the latest educational books and podcasts. If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself. You're going to love the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Let's dive in Rachel to go to welcome to the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me of course. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for our conversation today. Can you start by introducing yourself for our audience? Hello audience. My name is to and from Tanzania and I'm currently called the students at the City University of new york. I joined J, I'm majoring in political science and outside of schools. I'm an, I'm an activity video, both on an outside of conference.

00:02:26
So I'm, I'm a Children advocates at the UNICEF UsA and I'm working as a UNICEF United member and also an advocate member for the, at the United Nations Association of the United States of America and basically advocate for the, for the new york's leading at the chapter to discover and discuss and find the solution that affect the new Yorkers. I love it. And you're specializing in a track of education to track of education. Yes, it's so exciting. I'm so excited for you. Ellie. I'm so excited for you to be on the show. Welcome to the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to be here. Um so for some of you that don't know me. My name is Elie El Cadogan Um I'm from the Ivory Coast. I'm currently a student at Grand Canyon University pursuing a degree in finance. Um And I'm also a counselor as school counselor for the Y. M.

00:03:27
C. A. Program that's just a little bit about me. Amazing thank you so much for introducing herself for everyone. Dr Bettina love talks about freedom dreaming and the way she talks about it I think is particularly profound. She says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind thinking about critiquing injustice, pointing out fixing injustice. What is the big dream that you hold for the field of education or kind of like what do you wish school would be if it was kind of ideal? Oh okay. What do I wish school would be like? Um So I wish school was, well it is but I wish it could be more of a space where it's just like I wish there was a space where students would come and learn skills that will help them in the future in a sense because I've came across people through my years where they feel like school is just a space where they just learn english math science and boom and that's it as of they want to be in a space for example, let's say that when they're learning about stocks or Cryptocurrency and whatnot.

00:04:35
You feel me, they just come to the to school and sort of sort of have like some type of specific class where you know, teachers were focused basically on that. So to me, I wish school was like a space where, and this is me focusing in terms of high school and whatnot. Um school was a space where students could come and learn skills that will help them in the future if that makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. It almost sounds like you're describing almost like college at the high school level where you get to like yeah, say this is the thing I'm really interested in, Let me test this out, let me see what life is like, like even if it was a math class, but like you're saying like you pull in your interest in finance and that kind of thing. I think that would be super cool. And also doable. Like I think some schools kind of do more of that than other schools Rachel, what do you wish that school would be a, if you could dream up the perfect school experience, what would that look like? So for me, I believe that what the school look like is that first of all, you have to have the best calculus for students and also to have all the materials that will help the student too late and understand better.

00:05:46
So so that they would have any type of difficulties to understand what the leading schools and also for the school, they should have the city systems that will help students. For example, they need help. They should have someone closer they can be able to look at for when they have any problem. That's such an important point that you're talking about asking for help and getting support really easily when you need it in school. Is there something that you think would be helpful for schools to do that would be like a type of support or wade easily ask for help for me based on my experience. When I was in high school, I had a very true to receive an extra help from school because you know, I couldn't, I couldn't get to catch up with other students based on the specific problem that I have. And so what I was in high school, I received extra time and extra care for in order to continue with medication there.

00:06:49
And so for me, I believe that for the schools, it will be helpful for them to have to have a specific system that will be benefit for all the students Rachel, thank you so much for sharing that. What Rachel is speaking to us. Well, I think from a teacher lens is really important because to set up those systems, like you're saying, it involves a lot of talking to the students and seeing what they need and asking the students, you know what, what is the way that you can learn best, what supports do you want? Um, talking to families and thinking about that support for? So it's student, it's family, it's teacher at school, it's like everybody working together to figure out what's best for the student and then sometimes offering support like extra time or even I've had guests on the podcast, talk about how their schools don't do any time assessments. So just giving as much time as you need for all students right to be a able to complete at their own time. It reduces, I think that pressure of, oh I need to do it right now and if I don't, there's something wrong, but really everyone learns at their own pace.

00:07:53
So giving people that flexibility and support I think is brilliant and I love that you brought that up. So I'm curious to know for my next question what mindset? So like ways of thinking or approaches to education should teachers and also school leaders like principals and other folks that are in the space, what mindset should they have or maybe what mindsets have, like effective teachers or leaders had in your experience that really make that dream come to life. Like what is it about them and their way of like interacting with students or approaching education that really makes it possible for school to be that place where you can pursue your passions and have these like kind of personalized learning experiences that you were talking about throughout my years in school. Like let's say in high school, right, what teachers have done another to sort of incorporate some of the skills we want to learn in the future through the classes by I guess inviting guest speakers, inviting guest speakers in the field. Let me say um you want to focus on health.

00:08:56
So we invite a doctor to come and speak to the students and whatnot sort of correlate what we learned in class with what we want to do in the future. Um Another thing is if you don't mind me, I'm about to go a little off the rail like extracurricular activities for example, I'm gonna give another example, the Y. M. C. A. For example. Um There's times where let's say you want to learn about finances that will bring guest speakers or take you to places for example, visited morgen Stanley in order for us to learn and whatnot. So I guess my thing is I guess create more programs or create like like sort of what we learned in class to things that we want to learn. The things that are outside the classroom. I feel like that those are some some ways for teachers to I guess or school leaders to approach it in order to make class more interesting. Focus on students needs. Excellent. I love that. And I think to one of the I have a follow up question just because we've worked together and kind of like a student leadership capacity.

00:10:02
So what do you think like in my research and in my program that I was in when I was made for my own school, I looked a lot at this idea. They call it radical collegiality, but basically it's like teachers and leaders like adult, they see students as partners, they see students as people they can collaborate with and learn with and lead with. They don't see them necessarily as like below them. You know, like I have to tell you all the things that I know and like, you know nothing and like, you know what I mean? And so instead of that traditional dynamic of like the teacher knows everything and the student doesn't know anything, like really great teachers that are teach for justice and equity are really partnering with students. And so I'm wondering like what's an example of either how you've seen that or like how you haven't seen that and like what you wish would be possible? Like what you wish, uh you know, other schools, either your school specifically or just any school had for students in terms of like what that could look like, let's go back to our high school year, um prime example, student government.

00:11:11
Student government because um for example when times when we have meetings and whatnot and prime example, let's say when we wanted to affect do something in the school, right? We got the chance to actually sit in the staff meeting with the teachers and actually talk about the things that we wanted to do and it wasn't like, oh, I'm the principal or I'm the teacher and the idea you're coming with is just not it. So they were trying to come with us and sort of like, discuss ways of how to make the idea possible instead of just rejecting it or oh no, that's impossible, we can't do that. And that's, to me, one of the greatest things I really appreciate about our partnership in high school, if that makes sense, That absolutely makes sense. And I, yeah, I love the way that you said that too, because there might be like, here's a concern that this, that we have and like we might not be able to do it just the way you describe, but let's brainstorm together ways that that can happen. And so I think that's, that's a really good description that you, you have of what that looked like and what it can look like in other schools too, that might not currently be doing it, but my, you know, teachers might be listening and be like, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that with my students Rachel.

00:12:22
What are those kind of mindsets are ways of, of approaching teaching that you think would be best to help that dream come true to help everyone have the support and the flexibility that they need to succeed. So the way of teaching is that because every student have different type of planning. Some of them, the individuals, some of them reading some of them, you know, like doing practice and uh and other types of planning screens. So for me, I believe the teachers and the school system, they should have to combine together or the learning system and that would be best for the students. So giving them multiple opportunities to engage with the ideas and the content in different ways. Yes, yeah, for example doing activities so they can connect to like say during a game, they can connect that with a lesson and that will help students to learn and stay more inside and deep.

00:13:26
I love that example because it's so much more interesting and engaging to play a game than to take notes exactly related to the lesson. Good point thinking about other things that schools can do if there are people listening, their teachers, their leaders. And there it sounds like, you know, having that kind of mindset where students are partners, having that kind of creativity, where you're creating classes that are personalized for student interest like now and in the future almost kind of like a college class like that. That takes some bravery I think to get away from the traditional, that school has always been done. So I'm wondering like what advice would you give an educational leader, like a principal or assistant principal or a teacher to like make their school more like that more just and more personalized for students, Listen to the students needs, you feel me, excuse me, for the filming part, we can edit that. Uh, but I'm gonna say listen to the student needs and in a sense, we were sort of do like a survey or you could be joking around.

00:14:37
So what do you want to do? What are you interested in? Oh, okay. So for example, you're interested in music, what music you want to learn. Um, all these little things to sort of like for them to sort of have an idea of what the student need and try to accomplish it and knock down what these needs are. I'm, to me, I feel like that's the best way to approach it because once you know what the problem is, it's easier for you to focus on what, how to solve it. And I think that's the best way possible to, I guess tackle those. That makes a ton of sense to me because also, I think sometimes teachers assume that we know what students are thinking or wanting or whatever and so there's no way to actually know unless you ask. And so I think that's a great point. I think you mentioned surveys just talking to students. These are all ways that are really great to get to know your students actually like you said, identify the problem. So thank you so much. Those are really good suggestions Rachel. I'm curious to know if there are other things like actions that teachers can take who are listening and they're thinking about, you know, how do I provide the support for every student and to, to do this in the way that you're describing, what things can the teacher or even like, you know, principal due to make that possible.

00:15:54
Are there any other recommendations that you would give? I believe the only way they can do is to pay more attention to the students and to understand what is the students and what their skills is and how they adapted during the classroom. And I love that use of that because I think sometimes teachers feel like, or they think, you know, I have to do all of these lessons and all of these, you know, we have to talk about all these things and all this content that we have to do, we have to finish the whole textbook or whatever. And sometimes it comes at the expense of not interacting with the students as much because they're trying to do the lesson stuff and the relationship stuff, you know, it kind of becomes like not a priority and it happens less. And so I'm wondering because I think high school and college are so different and you've experienced both and so I'm wondering what is the difference being a high school student and being a college student in terms of the amount of time that you get to talk and interact and have relationships with your teachers, there's a huge difference.

00:17:03
They use different. So for example, in high school I had, I had a cross connections, I had a cross connection during the halftime and compared to college college, you don't get that much connection because every single time, for example, really help you need to go to the office or to someone that are saying that can help you. And so for me, most of the time I never use it as extra time and I'm going to tutoring to get extra help because because of my, my learning my level plain and understanding. So I used what is meant for me and I love that you're pointing out too that sometimes in college that it's a tutor, it's not even the teacher that you're working with, it's someone else in like a learning center or something. Yeah, so that's another really important piece to whether, you know, you're in the high school setting or the college setting might be to like, just make sure that everyone has, if the teacher is not available to at least have other tutors or support people to be able to help students.

00:18:05
I think that the more people we have that can support the better and even if that's another student or something, you know, to, to be able to have that support available, it sounds like that has been helpful for you in, in college as we think about like your own school experience and this could be any grade level, you know, kindergarten through college and in any setting. You know what is an experience and you can share more than one if you can't narrow it down to one. But what's an experience that impacted you the most or helped you the most or just is the most memorable experience in in school for you? I got quite a few actually. Um One restorative justice. I don't know if you remember we started just this was definitely the one. Um Because we actually got to discuss about topics that we I don't wanna say we weren't able but topics we didn't have time to discuss in school. Right? So having an extra extra curricular activities that focuses on that was a great one.

00:19:08
Another thing uh sports you know I'm a big sports guy. Um Sports and I think that's the best thing that the school could have have done about applying sports and. Yeah every monday to thursday monday to friday we focus on school math. But having sort of an extra thing outside of you just thinking, thinking and stressing to me was another great one. Um Like I mentioned earlier um Student government and because we are students got to you know show some change in the school and got to do things that we've never done before. That's another one. Um Yeah and some of the extra curricular activities such as the Big Brother Big Sister program and Y. M. C. And whatnot. Those programs I guess changed my views and sort of like built me into learning new skills whether it's leadership skills, networking skills. Um and skills that I guess I get to focus on a specific you know on a specific skill if that makes sense in the sense where let's say if I'm gonna focus on finance I got to you know go to places and got a feel of what it is and whatnot and got internship in order to make that possible.

00:20:31
And to me what that was something that I always appreciative of. I love those examples too because sometimes we think of school is just the academic part and so all of those that you listed are all things that happened maybe outside of the school hours or they're not like a traditional class if they are a class. And so I think that's really important to remember especially when students are coming back now to in person classes a lot of times that you know they haven't seen teachers or been in a school building or had extracurricular opportunities for like a year now in some cases where schools have been completely virtual and I think so many teachers are like how do we support students and how do we make sure we recoup what people are calling like learning loss or like you you know all this stuff about academics but it's also like how do we make kids feel and kids. So sometimes like in high school you know, they're not young kids, but how do we make students and people feel like they're part of a community like that. We have sports, we have leadership experience opportunities, we have the potential to like make these connections that aren't necessarily just academics.

00:21:33
And I think your advice is so helpful, your experience sharing, that is so helpful. And I think it hopefully will translate to advice to people of, don't just think about academics, think about the whole experience of students. So, thank you. I think that's so brilliant Rachel. Was there a school experience that helped you the most or impacted you the most? I would say high school, because I remember during my last scene of high school, we gave to experience like during active time at the last year of school. So I remember we we acted upon that upon the stream for immigrations, you know, for the migration who come here in the US to to receive opportunities in education. We had to act to present our, um, to be the import of the school during the school assembly. And that's that's what caught my attention a lot because by doing that, I mean, during, during that experience, I've been coming on until now, because I remember, so education is very important.

00:22:39
You know, it can help students, It can help your future and that and that's the best experience that I can get through my high school year and I carried on and to college time, and I think that's so important too, because sometimes in small schools like ours was kind of a small school, the high school that we were both at, and so the community opportunity to stand in front of the stage and to present to the whole school was possible because we were smaller. Some people go to schools where, you know, at your college for eggs, it's much larger, and so sometimes it's hard to have that space, but I love that you're speaking about a time when you got to be up in front of the stage, right and up in front of people and and being able to creatively talk about something that, you know, looked like your journey and also could be someone else's journey in the audience. Um and so that's, that's so profound, thank you for sharing that as we wrap up, what is like, the most important thing you want people to remember about this episode, or like one thing where a teacher is listening to this hang up the, the airpods or whatever, and they're just like, okay, I'm gonna go do something related to what you guys were just talking about, like what is that thing you would encourage them to do or to remember again, Just listen, listen to your students, um listen to your students, focus on the needs that you know, that plus to them um get to know your student don't become so friendly with them, but get to them, get to know them and know that, you know, I guess to see the change in classroom and personally, right?

00:24:23
And personally, I had to learn that because um, yeah, I said I was part of the Y. M. C. And I get to run classes and me actually sitting down, getting to know my students and getting to tackle some of the needs was something that I was like, oh, I don't want to see. None of my teachers have done that, but I wish they would have done that more with me. And yeah, so that's one thing I would definitely advise, I guess teachers and students and not students listen to your teachers. Yes, that's what I would say, teachers and students listen to your teachers because yeah, you in school at the end of the educated, they have a license for that. So listen to them. Um teachers as well listen to your students because that sometimes we feel like they're just throwing everything at us. But yeah, take your time listen to your students. And yeah, that's all I can say. That's so profound because I was just talking to a bunch of teachers the other day to who were thinking about like, okay, what's what's the most important thing, you know, that I want to do each day and if we ask ourselves that question, like, what is most important for me to do today as we're about to prepare a lesson or something.

00:25:37
So many times teachers are in the mindset of, I have to cover all this content, I need to get through this, like whatever it is that I'm teaching, but if we really take a step back and think about it, it's usually like, I need to make my students feel seen today, like I need to make eye contact with each one of them and say their names like I need to, you know, make them feel like they are recognized, someone cares that they're here in the school building, that maybe they were having a crappy day and like someone cares about that. And so I think that's such a, the important thing that you're talking about and I love how you're also saying from like, a teacher perspective now, right? You're in that role where you get to do that and like it's possible and you're seeing it's possible and you're seeing the benefits of students and like really reflecting on your own experience, which I think is really profound to be able to see both levels and for you to share both experiences with us. So thank you Rachel, what would that thing be that you would suggest people remember or do? I would like for people to remember that when students go to school they face so many difficulties and challenges they have to go to and some of the students they may not have, like, they may not have the privilege that like other students go for example, in terms of financial aid, like extra help and other school system that the students will need to have in order to complete their girls and their future.

00:26:55
So for me, I believe that the schools, they have to create the system that will benefit all the students so that nobody can be left out. Yeah, I see them. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for for voicing that I think that's so important. And if we don't do those things, you know, we're not really doing much in the way of education, right? If if education is only going to help certain students, that's not a very good system. It has to help all the students and I love that you said that so beautifully. Thank you. Thank you. Is there something and this is a question I just asked for fun at the end of every episode. Is there something that you have been learning about lately? It could be related to school but it could be something totally different to Yeah. So for me, something that I've learned so far, like something interesting that during my involvement at they went because I was so eager and so passionate about to learn about the globe and how and how things are going, you know, like for international selections and affairs.

00:28:01
So for me, my passion began when I was like in college during specially so professor asked a specific question for students to come up with and how they're going to stop that from, from my pickup education and I picked the country, which is called next time at Pakistan. Yeah. I noticed that um, girls, girls, they didn't have the champion civilization. Some of the girls when they didn't have any choice is to go to school in the film. So, so for me that made my rotations and I don't know. And I was like, okay, so if this is a problem, then there might be other problems are going to grow up. Okay. Then I need to, I need to find a way in order to product this, this, um, this problem is to find the solution to that. And that's when I started to go around to check it for the youth organization, the program so that I can learn more understand and what are the things I need to take and prior to my calendar to my current involvement, I'm being received like mentors who helped me to, to talk with the problem to buy like step by step what I need to do and also, yeah.

00:29:18
And also being involved like during like even conferences, uh, there I learned, you know, it's next things, things that I didn't know people I learned and then a lot. So yeah, So that's, that ours has been so far for me and I hope that in the future I will be able to help Children across the world who didn't have the chance to education said Yeah, so that they're gonna say privileged, like other people do. That is so beautiful, Rachel, thank you for sharing that. And I love that it started as a project that your professor asked you to think that that's so creative, I love that as a project and I, I love that, you know, you decided to choose Afghanistan specifically, I think having heard about all the things in the news that's happening in Afghanistan currently, as we're recording this, um that's going to become an even more important question, access to education for girls and and women and that gendered aspect of how the conflict is going to play out and what impact that has on, on girls and women in the country.

00:30:27
So I'm, I'm really excited that you are um one of the many people who is interested in this and you have all these mentors who are going to support in, in creating um you know, an opportunity for people to have more educational opportunities and so you are very inspiring. I'm so proud of you and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it, Rachel, thank you so much for having me today. What is something that you have been learning about lately. So I guess in terms of education, again, learning about my students and what not another thing learning lately. I've taken the time to learn piano how to play piano, I guess. That's amazing. That's a skill that I've been, something I've been trying to learn at that, wow, that is impressive. If you want people to like connect with you or like reach out to you, is that something you're interested in and if so, where is the best place for people to do that?

00:31:35
My email is just my first and last name dot at gmail dot com linkedin is my first and last name instagram is L E L E L I E L D k d G and awesome and we can link those in the show notes with the episode two if people want to click and I'm assuming you're thinking about graduation down the road and looking at jobs and so if people are interested in the finance sector, right, you're interested in internship, perhaps something connect with ali this will be great, he will be amazing Allie, thank you so much for being on the show today, I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at lindsey Beth alliance or leave a review of the show. So, leaders like you will be more likely to find it until next time leaders continue to think big act brave and be your best self
​

​Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• ​Google podcasts​
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher​​

Do You Tell Kids the Whole Truth?
​We all tend to use a different “filter” when speaking to kids versus adults. When you were young, you probably remember adults sugarcoating topics for you too. In a way, it makes sense because children and young teens are still developing their emotional regulation capacity. Many people want to keep children protected from having to deal with the kind of fear, worry, and loss of innocence that they deal with. The problem is, it can be hard to reach consensus on how much information we should share.

Why We Shouldn't Keep Students in the Dark
I believe that avoiding hard topics at all costs is not the way to go. Refusing to acknowledge traumatic events and topics does not give your student a chance to understand why and how such things could occur. It’s important to emphasize the fact that students can easily pick up on cues when something is wrong. Research shows that by age 2-4, children are already aware of social constructs  and internalizing bias around identities like race and gender. 

“If we avoid it, there is this inherent thing that students will pick up, which is saying that something is wrong with people who deviate from the mythical norm—this idea of a white cisgendered male who is heterosexual, who is Christian, who is middle-upper class, etc.”

Knowing that, you can be the one to help students navigate conversations that bring up all these emotions like fear or anger or sadness. Does that make you nervous? Even as an adult, you may still experience all the same emotions and uncertainty. I know I do. Many issues today do not have clear answers and there is still so much progress to be made. Despite this, we will march forward because justice requires us to commit and show up as best we can. In order to do the work well, I suggest you create some space in your class time that you use to foster better relationships with students. Making eye contact, asking questions, being willing to learn about another culture—these are all things within your power. 

We Won't Let Discomfort Get in the Way
Secondly, I’ve seen discomfort hold back white teachers and principals from engaging in these talks. Bringing up these topics as a white person can feel very uncomfortable because we either don’t want to be labeled as “racist” or “biased” or we don’t want to face the guilt that comes up from facing our own privileges and roles in these systems of oppression. If I’m being completely honest, it’s inevitable that you will get it wrong. You may not correct a "microaggression," you may say something that causes harm, you may forget to give students a voice in something. And it will be okay as long as you are willing to own up to them and continue to learn from these mistakes. You don’t need perfection in this work, you want progress. 

“We want to be mindful when we invite students to talk about things, that can be traumatic for them or that are based in historical trauma, that that can be harmful. It can be if not done well...But what we want to talk about today is: How do we move forward with this work, enabling us to have these conversations in a way that is generative, perhaps even healing, and not increasing trauma for students?”

When Sharif El-Mekki read an article written by a white educator that posed the question “Are white teachers still welcome in non-white charter schools?” He decided to respond with his own article which said “Yes, anti-racist ones and those striving to be anti-racist. The only prerequisites: they must understand, contrary to what some insist, that we do not live in a post-racial society, they must be able to handle candid feedback, even about their colorblindness and racism.” El-Mekki also brilliantly pointed out the false dichotomy in the article that claimed you can either be an effective teacher or an anti-racist one. In reality, you need to be practicing anti-racism to be an effective teacher (and leader). 

Traumatic topics need to be addressed using an approach that supports students. When opening up these topics for discussion, allow emotions to come up without censoring them. Allow personal experiences to be shared. Validate students’ identities. Students who may not directly relate to that topic can talk about what they can do to support students who have experienced this trauma. If all of this feels like a lot, don’t worry, you will improve over time. By committing to anti-racist practice and taking informed risks (e.g., starting these important conversations), you’re going to see so many benefits in your students, their achievements, and your own personal development. 

Continue the conversation below in the comment section and join our community of educational visionaries on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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TRANSCRIPT
wow, I cannot believe this is episode 50 of the time for teacher ship podcast. We're halfway to 100 in this episode. Just a heads up for folks who are like, I do not want to deal with this topic at this moment. There are mentions of trauma and specific trauma, including sexual assault in this episode. If that's just not for you at the moment, no worries at all. Feel free to turn off this episode, return to it another time or not at all. I just want to give you a heads up, let's get into the episode. Hi, I'm lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar. If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a pro Principal Superintendent instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerd ng out about the latest educational books and podcasts, if you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the time for Teacher ship podcast, let's dive in in this episode, I want to address a question that has come up several times in working with educators around developing curriculum for justice and that's the question of kind of, when do I start, when am I kind of knowing enough, having enough content knowledge, having enough skill developed that I can comfortably and that's the key here comfortably or perhaps, um, knowingly engage with students around a challenging or even traumatic topic in a way that does more good than harm.

00:01:56
And so asking the question is talking about traumatic topics doing more harm than good. The question that's really framing this episode, I think it's about ultimately when to start, when to implement and to identify some of the things that might be barriers to holding us back from implementation. So let's go ahead and dive into a series of responses to this question. I know we're just gonna scratch the surface, but let's dive in. So first I want to address the initial question that I originally would get and I have a very quick response to it. It's grounded in science and research. And so I think that this episode does not need to spend much time on it. And that's the question of if I bring up topics such as race, does that make kids more racist by just bringing it up particularly at young ages? So typically I get this question from elementary school, really young teachers of young students and what the research tells us is that kids begin to perceive racist ideologies from as early as age of two.

00:03:00
And so this research is clear that if we don't talk about it, that does not mean that our students, our Children are not internalizing the things that they're seeing in society, the things that they're hearing um in in various settings from various media's that's what the research says. And so right off the bat, I want to be clear that bringing up these topics does not make kids more biased more racist more insert ism here. So it is important to bring them up if that is your point of resistance and thinking that it might do more harm than good in that sense. What this episode for the remainder of the episode is really going to touch on is thinking about the real fact that bringing up topics in class and encouraging students to talk about topics that really surface and in the moment can add to their trauma with particular either ISMs or events or experiences around particular topics that we're talking about.

00:04:06
And so we want to be mindful that when we encourage dialogue, when we invite students to talk about things that can be traumatic for them or that are based in historical trauma, that that can be harmful, right? That can be if not done well harmful to students. And so of course that is the fear that some teachers have that many teachers have, right? I think everyone that does this work with thought and intention has the spirit at some point. But what we want to talk about today is how do we move forward with this work enabling us to have these conversations in a way that is generative perhaps even healing and not increasing trauma for students. Some folks, I think in behind this question, as I mentioned at the opening of the episode, kind of feel like I'm not ever going to get it right or I'm not at a place where I'm gonna get it right, quote unquote, like going to ever get something perfect, right? And so I don't want to start and so I fear that I'm doing more harm than good and I'm just not going to bring anything up.

00:05:11
And so underlying that is a is a bunch of layered responses. I'm gonna bring in some voices of some authors and some various things that read that I think help inform a response to this question. Of course this episode is just going to really scratch the surface, but I want to kind of uncover some of those layers and bring them up. So, I think the first layer is of course it takes a commitment to do the work, right? We are never going to get it perfectly right. We're always learning and growing. We're each on our journeys in different places and we're always kind of moving forward towards justice ideally, right? So we're going to need to learn particularly because many of us were taught with content and pedagogy that was not anti racist, that was not feminist that was very much steeped in oppression and undoing. That requires an un learning of a lot of content, a lot of framing a lot of pedagogical strategies that were harmful. And so that is a very long journey. We are going to learn that and unravel that and and learn new strategies that are affirming for students identities and experiences as we go.

00:06:18
We don't need to have every tool and strategy and understanding imaginable because no one has that to get started, right? But it is helpful to get started and I'll get into that in a little bit. But I want to borrow from larry fellas. Oh, who's a high school teacher who's written this article in which he says culturally responsive teaching is not a quick fix. Nor is it a simple strategy to add into your lessons. It takes reflection upon your and your students cultural lenses. It takes an inquiry stance and an audit of practices that may be limiting student access to your curriculum above all. It takes a deep connection with students and their families and a commitment to support their cultural needs, even if what is required is for you to get outside of your cultural comfort zone. End quote, This is a huge piece, right? If it's our discomfort that is holding us back. If it is our commitment to making those relationships. Taking time to build those relationships within class time, right?

00:07:20
Which as we're always trying to compete for time, right? There's already so many things to do. There's so much content to cover at the end of the day when I ask myself what is my priority. Often times in a given school day, it's to make a connection with the student, to make eye contact to say their name too. Just make them feel seen and valued and like they belong here. And someone cares about how their day went at the end of the day. That is what's the most important for really fostering a sense of of students, humanity and dignity and sense of belonging in my class. And if they don't have that, they're not going to learn all the academic stuff that I'm trying to cram it, right? So that's the piece, right? It's a commitment to doing the work. It's creating the time and prioritizing those relationships with students, even if it makes us uncomfortable. And in that day, and I want to think about this next kind of underlying question is it? And I'm thinking mostly I'm speaking to whites teachers here, but is it white teacher discomfort holding us back? So it's our discomfort that's actually holding us back from starting because we don't want to be perceived as racist, Classist, sexist, homophobic?

00:08:27
You know, whatever it is, because we say something incorrectly because we don't catch something that happens with a student, we don't catch a microaggression and address it immediately in class or we just have a misstep ideally we don't want to have missed us. We don't want to make mistakes, but we will inevitably make a mistake, we will inevitably miss an opportunity or say the wrong thing. And the goal here is that we don't let that fear of discomfort, that fear of imperfection hold us back, right? Perfection is a tool of white supremacy. It holds us in place. We are going to learn from the mistakes that we make. If we're committed to doing the learning and committed to doing this work, we're going to learn and we're never gonna make that mistake again. But we have to be able to dive in and do the best we can with what we have now with the pursuit of continuing to learn, continuing to respond to any mistakes that we do make with gratitude for someone pointing it out to us with the commitment to say I will do better next time.

00:09:28
Um and and to do better. Right? So that discomfort piece Dina Simmons, who I absolutely love, has written an article in which she says the educators I work with are mostly white, which matches the lack of teacher diversity on national level and often share that They do not feel comfortable talking about race. But when we shy away from opening conversations about race with young people, we sow the seeds of prejudice by inadvertently sending the message that something is wrong with people from another race. End quote I think this is huge. Right? So by just avoiding the topics of race, of gender identity, of sexual orientation, of all of these things that we might want to talk about if we avoid it, there is this inherent thing that students will pick up, which is saying that something is wrong with people who deviate from, you know, the mythical norm, right? This idea of a white cis gendered male who is heterosexual, who is christian, who is middle to upper class, right?

00:10:36
Like all of these kind of mythical norms that Audrey Lorde refers to. If we deviate from that, something is wrong. That is the mess that were inadvertently likely unintentionally sending, but which students are absolutely picking up in us avoiding those questions. If we avoid questions or topics that relate to students identities were also invalidating and avoiding seeing them as whole people were saying this isn't important enough to bring up in class. So, I think that's a really important frame to consider more on perfection. If we're waiting for having more time or getting all of the facts, we're getting ready to never make a mistake, right? If we are waiting and waiting until we're going to get it perfectly right before we actually start. We're doing a lot of harm in the process of waiting, right? We're not surfacing those topics for discussion. We're not valuing and affirming the identities of our students right? As Dina Simmons is referring to. Right? So, and thinking about this, I wanted to bring in a phenomenal Education Post article by Sharif El Mekki, who is the founder and Ceo of the Center for Black educator Development.

00:11:42
And his article is a response to an article written by a white educator and uh article entitled no, you should not be teaching black Children if you reject anti racism. And it's a phenomenal article is quite long. So I won't be quoting all of it, but I do want to just pull in some pieces in it. He responds to the white educators question, are white teachers still welcome in nonwhite charter schools? And he says, yes, this is a quote here, yes, anti racist ones. And those striving to be anti racist, the only prerequisites they must understand contrary to what some insist that we do not live in a post racial society. They must be able to handle candid feedback even about their color blindness and racism. So again, if we recover from our mistakes, if we respond with gratitude, right, these are the prerequisites we have to be committed to the work. And then he said, yes, obviously anti racist. White educators are certainly welcome to teach black and brown Children.

00:12:47
Yeah. And he also addresses the white educators in a false dichotomy that they bring up in the initial article about being an effective teacher or an anti racist teacher. So he responds to this dichotomy that the white educator sets up and saying, you know, that's a false dichotomy, right? You actually have to be both. You have to be an anti racist teacher to be an effective teacher. And he uses a wonderful quote from Toni Morrison to emphasize this point, right? She says the function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over and over again. Your reason for being there will always be one more thing. End quote and so Toni Morrison's words I think are so profound in so many ways, right? If we distract from the issue of talking about racial justice, right of talking about gender justice, of talking about intersectional justice. We are distracting even by saying we want to do this work.

00:13:50
We want to do it well, we don't want to do harm. We are just afraid of making mistakes right? We're distracting from the value of bringing these topics and conversations into the class and seeing them and having our students see them as important. But we're making it about us and our discomfort and our fears right? There's always gonna be one more thing to learn or to know there's always gonna be a mistake that we're gonna make and regret. But if we can get past that if we can get past that fear and discomfort, we will learn, we will grow. There is a magazine article, Greater Good magazine which is out of UC Berkeley that talks about this principle of harm, right and the fact that we don't want to do harm. They say quote, the cautionary principle of first do no harm doesn't mean that organization should stop such dialogues and they're referring to dialogues around race here, but instead invites a pause for organizational education, introspection and commitment. End quote. They really talk about throughout the article that racial dialogue does carry trauma and the potential to revisit that trauma or to bring about new trauma as we engage in it.

00:14:59
They also say there are a lot of ways to make dialogue healthier. One is to stop looking at the micro level, the individual interpersonal level and look at organizational structures. How is the organization, right? In school systems? How are organizations having school policies or practices that perpetuate injustice? What can we do as a school to make things better for students? They also mention it's incredibly important not to invalidate or put parameters on the emotional responses of people who have been harmed when they bring that up in discussion. Right? If we're opening up these topics for discussion and we invite people to respond and they have a lot of emotion around very emotional things that is normal. That's a normal human response and we invited that discussion. We can't go ahead and put parameters on it and say your anger makes me uncomfortable. Please tone it down. These are important things to consider, right. We want these conversations to be affirming of students experiences and adults for that matter when we talk to adults as well.

00:16:01
We we want them to validate students identities and experiences and emotions. This is not the time to say students need to self regulate if we are inviting them to share about a traumatic experience the other thing and I will get back to this because the article also refers to this leader. The other thing is, we don't want to say you have to share a traumatic experience because we need to learn from your traumatic experience. We need you to open up and be vulnerable. And that's the only way we're gonna learn about this topic, right? That's not on students to bring that experience to our class to teach us, right? And so we'll get back to that later. But I do want to just add that caveat in there as well. But that's a really important thing to remember, right? We are the ones who are responsible as educators for bringing in topics, framing them in affirming ways. And of course inviting students responses to these topics but not putting it on students to educate us in their own experience. So I'll speak just to my experience with trauma as a students. So, sexual assault was discussed a lot in my classes in college because I was a gender and women's studies major and that is a really important component of having a female identity, right?

00:17:18
Or or a gender nonconforming identity in our society the way that it exists, right? And that's a very popular topic that would come up a lot and as a survivor of sexual assault, I was okay with that. In many cases, I actually felt like having those conversations in class and studying this topic, it felt validating to my experience. Like it was an important enough topic that other people were also interested in talking about it. They felt like it was a worthy thing to discuss and to talk about How do we support survivors? How do we end um you know, Entitlement and and what causes sexual assault right in this power dynamic and and all that stuff. It felt like a worthy topic to discuss in class and I felt like, okay that means my experiences are worthy of conversation. But in one class which was not a gender woman studies class, it was a non major class. We were shown a clip of a rape scene from a movie and when I shakily responded my emotions and the opinion that I shared were invalidated, Other students were allowed to say that what we watched was consensual with support from the professor and my attempts to discuss this club in written assignments at later points in the class were silenced because I was told we were done with that topic and we can't return to a former topic in a later piece of course.

00:18:46
This is just my personal experience and it's just around one topic that I happen to have personal experience with. But my takeaway from this set of experiences is that when I was given the space to respond with my full emotions in spaces where I was met with empathy and acceptance was actually very healing. It was validating that we were even talking about something that was important to me, where it became harmful for me was when I wasn't allowed to respond with emotion or even to respond at all. Once I had shared my initial one sentence reaction with the class and that's the difference for me as a facilitator as a teacher who's kind of having these conversations with students. We have to ask the question, how are we enabling students to respond if we're enabling students to respond as their full human selves, the full range of emotions, them or at least creating an environment where healing is possible or more likely than one in which we're shutting conversation down. I think that also refers to topics that are brought up that are not in a conversational lesson.

00:19:49
So I have two instances where I remember one was my first year, so my first year of teaching, a student had responded to an image that I put up and said, miss, take that down. And I thinking that I was teaching the content said, well it's really important that we look at this and you know, here's why and then I moved on and took the picture down. But it took me an extra few seconds to because of my own stuff rationalize like this is okay for me to show this image, even though clearly it was traumatic for my students and I totally messed up that one, right? That's something I still think about today. It's like, that probably hurt the relationship that I had with that student with the class probably with his ability to learn the rest of the day, um, that I didn't respond, but like, oh, of course I will take that down of course. That's traumatizing for you to see a picture like this. Um, in later years, I had students, I was showing a video and there was a scene that was disruptive for them and they just asked to, I'd set the class up with co constructed agreements where students would, you know, be able to share what they thought would be helpful for them if something traumatic came up or they just needed a break and, and needed to step out that they could just quickly, you know, ask can I just take a walk.

00:21:09
And so I had to students who had the same response to this video and they were able to take a walk. They were able to find someone to talk to that understood their experience because they had a similar experience in their past and they, you know, came back to class later and, you know, the next day, um, like, just let me know, you know, how, how they were doing. I just kind of did a very informal check in, I didn't want to dwell on it, but I did want to acknowledge, you know, this, clearly, there was something going on. The person they had talked to had had mentioned to me, um, you know, that they had spoken and it just, it was much more the students responded in a way that to me said that they felt much more affirmed they were like, it was, you know, something that bothered us, we were able to step out, we were able to talk to someone, We're good now. Thanks for giving us the space to process that we appreciate that you were showing it because we think the class should see this and and recognize the things that we've experienced.

00:22:11
Um, but we also needed that space and time for ourselves to to go be alone or to be with someone who understood and to be able to not be in the room while the rest of that scene was playing out totally makes sense. Um, and so I'm not saying I handled that situation perfectly by any means, but I think that was a really big learning moment for me, where I felt like I had an opportunity to redo something that I had done terribly the first time around. So again, that space that we hold, even outside of classes that are about discussion. Um, it's really important in just immediate student responses and being able to recognize those responses for what they are and respond appropriately or give them the freedom to choose how they would like to respond and support that decision. So, back to the greater good article. I just want to return to a few other quotes here. They say quote recalling personal experiences with racism may arouse post traumatic stress disorder symptoms which have been linked to experiences with racism for black and latino people. In addition to being distressing, discussing experiences with racism can be emotionally exhausting and quote, dr Thelma Bryant Davis later in the article also explains in a quote, not only do we have to educate others on our wounds, but then people want to regulate your emotions that you shouldn't be upset as you explain things that are upsetting like this is an outrage.

00:23:26
But if I look outraged, then that is deemed unacceptable. That I am the problem. People are more concerned about black people's anger than the things that were angry about that is exhausting and problematic. End quote. So, as educators, I really want to bring this together to kind of come up with some things to consider, right? We we should not place the burden to teach on students. Their traumatic experiences should not be our teachers. If students are willing to share something because they've been invited and we've created a space where they want to share. We absolutely can listen, but we have to not demand that students or other adults for that matter, regulate their emotional responses to traumatic topics and as facilitators, it's important that we are able to identify and interrupt and we'll get better at this as we, you know, do this more. What some would call microaggressions. What I think are really just aggressions if and when they should come up in a class discussion, right?

00:24:30
So with our responsibility to identify and interrupt those and if we can keep those things in mind and recognize that we're gonna get better as we do it more. I think it's more helpful. It does more good to bring about topics and show people they are worth talking about things related to their identity and their experiences are valued if they are traumatic, we value them because we recognize that there is a negative impact we want to heal the harm. This is something that we're committed to as a class and we want to stop that injustice from happening in the future and we are committed as a class to take action to prevent harm. And so these pieces I think are really critical if we keep in mind what we need to do as facilitators or teachers in a class setting or even adults in a setting where we're talking to colleagues or friends or family and recognizing the impact that having these conversations can have and that we need to allow people to respond in the way that they need to and so we think about what skills a discussion facilitators should have experts.

00:25:31
Again in this article, talked to us about what those are they say, quote a facilitator who understands the potential for trauma, who can pick up on microaggressions during the dialogue and who has done the self work. Remember it's a journey to recognize their own internal biases so that they don't transpose them onto the dialogue. The do no harm principle requires that organizations aren't swept into the momentum to just do something, but instead take the time to be thoughtful and committed to building anti racist organizations. Dialogue is likely to be part of this initiative, but organizations must do so with the full understanding of what they are asking their racial and ethnic minority employees to give and be equally committed to giving back. So I do wanna name here that they are saying right, we can't just be swept up in doing something and doing something haphazardly. But this is the same article that starts at the beginning to say the cautionary principle of first do no harm doesn't mean that organization should stop such dialogues right? But instead invites a pause for organizational education, introspection and commitment.

00:26:35
So they're not saying don't talk about this, They're saying be thoughtful, be intentional. And I think anyone who's asking the question really honestly about are we doing more harm than good and bringing up these topics for our students with the sub questions being like, you know, recognizing that I have to do all of this work, recognizing I'm going to learn as I go, recognizing all of these pieces and recognizing of course that bring up traumatic topics can be traumatizing to students if not done well, someone who already has all of these understandings in their mind and is committed to doing the work and doing it well in a way that promotes healing and not harm is going to be a person who is going to be thoughtful right and is already considering all the things that they should be thinking about. And so recognizing what they can do as facilitators, recognizing this is a lifelong journey, recognizing that our fear and our desire for perfection can inhibit forward progress and action as we're kind of waiting and planning and not implementing the students that students are, you know, having harm done by just not seeing their identities validated, We're not seeing their experiences.

00:27:37
Um you know, talked about one of the biggest things that I want to emphasize is that we will learn and get better as we go. And so Heidrick nickel is also an amazing educator and fellow podcaster. She uses the saying in an article about anti racism for educators that she frames at the start and the end of the article, she says, how do you eat an elephant, one small bite at a time. And so this idea of one small bite at a time, one step at a time, trying something out, being committed to justice recognizing will make a mistake recognizing we don't have all of the resources, the tools, the content knowledge that we will eventually learn and some, we eventually won't right because we can't possibly know it all that is important to keep in mind. And if we do nothing, we're continuing the harm that has historically been done. If we do something and we keep in mind all of these pieces that importance of the space that we cultivate the space to express and emotionally respond in the way that students need to, the recognition that their students and other people's trauma is not expected to educate us, right, and that we will make a mistake and we will respond with gratitude for someone pointing it out and do better the next time.

00:28:54
These are the important things to keep in mind, but it is better to start be thoughtful but start thanks for listening. Amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at lindsey Beth alliance or leave a review of the show. So leaders like you will be more likely to find it until next time leaders continue to think big act brave and be your best self
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