Listen to Your Students with Rachel Tugutu and Eliel Koudougnon

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I’m thrilled to announce that today my guests are two of my former students—Eliel and Rachel. In this discussion, they talk about their high school experiences as well as how things shifted in college.

Imagining What School Could Be
When I asked each of them what their dream for school is, Eliel responded by saying he wishes school would be a space where students could gain skills that would be useful for them in the real world. Although Math, Science, and English are important, there are so many more subjects that students never have the chance to explore such as learning about cryptocurrency, investing, and culinary skills. It makes him wonder, why can’t we expand student choice in that way? In Rachel’s opinion, a great school experience is one where there is a student-centered curriculum and enough materials in each class to make learning fun and rewarding. Having an advisor or counselor that can assist students with questions or issues is also something she’d like to see. It’s a great point because having systems in place to support students will mean all students, families, and members of the school would rally together to find solutions that work. 

In terms of creating a more personalized learning experience, Eliel imagines that teachers can make this happen by inviting more guest speakers who are experts in niche areas that interest students. For instance, if some students want to hear about what is needed to become a nutritionist, there could be a nutritionist coming to speak to students and answer their questions. Many schools have after-school programs. Creating special after-school programs where kids can learn to play an instrument or language or anything else is a big possibility as well. 

Pay Attention to Students' Interests & Partner With Them
The idea of partnering with students still gets judged as radical but there is a growing number of schools that see the value in trying it. Students are far more likely to participate in the projects, lessons, and discussions when they have a say in how the rules and systems are constructed. Eliel can personally speak to this as someone who used to be in student government. In the past, when he and his group would have meetings with school staff, adult efforts to collaborate and not dismiss student ideas stood out to him. 

Rachel shared that teachers don’t have to worry about trying to pick the perfect lessons for students, just ask students what they’re interested in. Take the guess work out. In high school, she said it was easier to talk directly with the instructor but in college, there was less direct communication. For this reason, it’s a good idea to have assistants and tutors that can help students 1 on 1 if teachers have limited availability. 

“I would like for people to remember that when students go to school, they face so many difficulties and changes they have to go through. Some students may not have the same privileges as other students...So for me, I believe that schools have to create the systems that will benefit all students so that nobody will be left out.”

Moving forward, the first step school leaders should take is really getting to know their students by listening more. Let students take the stage and see how much you can learn from them. From there, work with students to increase equity and introduce new policies that bring a wonderful educational experience to all. 

Thanks for reading! Continue the conversation below in the comment section and join our community of educational visionaries on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to episode 52 of the time for Teacher Ship podcast, I'm so excited for this episode because I'm talking to two of my former students, one whom I had in my educational academic classes and one who I worked with as a student leader and student government, I am so excited for you to hear from Rachel to go to and they are brilliant. They are currently both in college and so they're reflecting back on their high school experiences as well as speaking to their college experiences. I'll let them introduce themselves. So one of the things I want to highlight is I actually interviewed them separately and then edited the footage together and it is eerie how some of their answers parallel one another, having not actually been in the same conversation. And so I'm really excited for you to hear kind of the themes that come up as well as the different responses to the same questions that they had. So without further ado, let's dive into the episode and let's listen to some students. Hi, I'm lindsey Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive, I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

00:01:23
If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a pro Principal Superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader and if you enjoy nerd ng out about the latest educational books and podcasts. If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth and being the best version of yourself. You're going to love the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Let's dive in Rachel to go to welcome to the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me of course. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for our conversation today. Can you start by introducing yourself for our audience? Hello audience. My name is to and from Tanzania and I'm currently called the students at the City University of new york. I joined J, I'm majoring in political science and outside of schools. I'm an, I'm an activity video, both on an outside of conference.

00:02:26
So I'm, I'm a Children advocates at the UNICEF UsA and I'm working as a UNICEF United member and also an advocate member for the, at the United Nations Association of the United States of America and basically advocate for the, for the new york's leading at the chapter to discover and discuss and find the solution that affect the new Yorkers. I love it. And you're specializing in a track of education to track of education. Yes, it's so exciting. I'm so excited for you. Ellie. I'm so excited for you to be on the show. Welcome to the time for Teacher Ship podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to be here. Um so for some of you that don't know me. My name is Elie El Cadogan Um I'm from the Ivory Coast. I'm currently a student at Grand Canyon University pursuing a degree in finance. Um And I'm also a counselor as school counselor for the Y. M.

00:03:27
C. A. Program that's just a little bit about me. Amazing thank you so much for introducing herself for everyone. Dr Bettina love talks about freedom dreaming and the way she talks about it I think is particularly profound. She says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind thinking about critiquing injustice, pointing out fixing injustice. What is the big dream that you hold for the field of education or kind of like what do you wish school would be if it was kind of ideal? Oh okay. What do I wish school would be like? Um So I wish school was, well it is but I wish it could be more of a space where it's just like I wish there was a space where students would come and learn skills that will help them in the future in a sense because I've came across people through my years where they feel like school is just a space where they just learn english math science and boom and that's it as of they want to be in a space for example, let's say that when they're learning about stocks or Cryptocurrency and whatnot.

00:04:35
You feel me, they just come to the to school and sort of sort of have like some type of specific class where you know, teachers were focused basically on that. So to me, I wish school was like a space where, and this is me focusing in terms of high school and whatnot. Um school was a space where students could come and learn skills that will help them in the future if that makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. It almost sounds like you're describing almost like college at the high school level where you get to like yeah, say this is the thing I'm really interested in, Let me test this out, let me see what life is like, like even if it was a math class, but like you're saying like you pull in your interest in finance and that kind of thing. I think that would be super cool. And also doable. Like I think some schools kind of do more of that than other schools Rachel, what do you wish that school would be a, if you could dream up the perfect school experience, what would that look like? So for me, I believe that what the school look like is that first of all, you have to have the best calculus for students and also to have all the materials that will help the student too late and understand better.

00:05:46
So so that they would have any type of difficulties to understand what the leading schools and also for the school, they should have the city systems that will help students. For example, they need help. They should have someone closer they can be able to look at for when they have any problem. That's such an important point that you're talking about asking for help and getting support really easily when you need it in school. Is there something that you think would be helpful for schools to do that would be like a type of support or wade easily ask for help for me based on my experience. When I was in high school, I had a very true to receive an extra help from school because you know, I couldn't, I couldn't get to catch up with other students based on the specific problem that I have. And so what I was in high school, I received extra time and extra care for in order to continue with medication there.

00:06:49
And so for me, I believe that for the schools, it will be helpful for them to have to have a specific system that will be benefit for all the students Rachel, thank you so much for sharing that. What Rachel is speaking to us. Well, I think from a teacher lens is really important because to set up those systems, like you're saying, it involves a lot of talking to the students and seeing what they need and asking the students, you know what, what is the way that you can learn best, what supports do you want? Um, talking to families and thinking about that support for? So it's student, it's family, it's teacher at school, it's like everybody working together to figure out what's best for the student and then sometimes offering support like extra time or even I've had guests on the podcast, talk about how their schools don't do any time assessments. So just giving as much time as you need for all students right to be a able to complete at their own time. It reduces, I think that pressure of, oh I need to do it right now and if I don't, there's something wrong, but really everyone learns at their own pace.

00:07:53
So giving people that flexibility and support I think is brilliant and I love that you brought that up. So I'm curious to know for my next question what mindset? So like ways of thinking or approaches to education should teachers and also school leaders like principals and other folks that are in the space, what mindset should they have or maybe what mindsets have, like effective teachers or leaders had in your experience that really make that dream come to life. Like what is it about them and their way of like interacting with students or approaching education that really makes it possible for school to be that place where you can pursue your passions and have these like kind of personalized learning experiences that you were talking about throughout my years in school. Like let's say in high school, right, what teachers have done another to sort of incorporate some of the skills we want to learn in the future through the classes by I guess inviting guest speakers, inviting guest speakers in the field. Let me say um you want to focus on health.

00:08:56
So we invite a doctor to come and speak to the students and whatnot sort of correlate what we learned in class with what we want to do in the future. Um Another thing is if you don't mind me, I'm about to go a little off the rail like extracurricular activities for example, I'm gonna give another example, the Y. M. C. A. For example. Um There's times where let's say you want to learn about finances that will bring guest speakers or take you to places for example, visited morgen Stanley in order for us to learn and whatnot. So I guess my thing is I guess create more programs or create like like sort of what we learned in class to things that we want to learn. The things that are outside the classroom. I feel like that those are some some ways for teachers to I guess or school leaders to approach it in order to make class more interesting. Focus on students needs. Excellent. I love that. And I think to one of the I have a follow up question just because we've worked together and kind of like a student leadership capacity.

00:10:02
So what do you think like in my research and in my program that I was in when I was made for my own school, I looked a lot at this idea. They call it radical collegiality, but basically it's like teachers and leaders like adult, they see students as partners, they see students as people they can collaborate with and learn with and lead with. They don't see them necessarily as like below them. You know, like I have to tell you all the things that I know and like, you know nothing and like, you know what I mean? And so instead of that traditional dynamic of like the teacher knows everything and the student doesn't know anything, like really great teachers that are teach for justice and equity are really partnering with students. And so I'm wondering like what's an example of either how you've seen that or like how you haven't seen that and like what you wish would be possible? Like what you wish, uh you know, other schools, either your school specifically or just any school had for students in terms of like what that could look like, let's go back to our high school year, um prime example, student government.

00:11:11
Student government because um for example when times when we have meetings and whatnot and prime example, let's say when we wanted to affect do something in the school, right? We got the chance to actually sit in the staff meeting with the teachers and actually talk about the things that we wanted to do and it wasn't like, oh, I'm the principal or I'm the teacher and the idea you're coming with is just not it. So they were trying to come with us and sort of like, discuss ways of how to make the idea possible instead of just rejecting it or oh no, that's impossible, we can't do that. And that's, to me, one of the greatest things I really appreciate about our partnership in high school, if that makes sense, That absolutely makes sense. And I, yeah, I love the way that you said that too, because there might be like, here's a concern that this, that we have and like we might not be able to do it just the way you describe, but let's brainstorm together ways that that can happen. And so I think that's, that's a really good description that you, you have of what that looked like and what it can look like in other schools too, that might not currently be doing it, but my, you know, teachers might be listening and be like, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that with my students Rachel.

00:12:22
What are those kind of mindsets are ways of, of approaching teaching that you think would be best to help that dream come true to help everyone have the support and the flexibility that they need to succeed. So the way of teaching is that because every student have different type of planning. Some of them, the individuals, some of them reading some of them, you know, like doing practice and uh and other types of planning screens. So for me, I believe the teachers and the school system, they should have to combine together or the learning system and that would be best for the students. So giving them multiple opportunities to engage with the ideas and the content in different ways. Yes, yeah, for example doing activities so they can connect to like say during a game, they can connect that with a lesson and that will help students to learn and stay more inside and deep.

00:13:26
I love that example because it's so much more interesting and engaging to play a game than to take notes exactly related to the lesson. Good point thinking about other things that schools can do if there are people listening, their teachers, their leaders. And there it sounds like, you know, having that kind of mindset where students are partners, having that kind of creativity, where you're creating classes that are personalized for student interest like now and in the future almost kind of like a college class like that. That takes some bravery I think to get away from the traditional, that school has always been done. So I'm wondering like what advice would you give an educational leader, like a principal or assistant principal or a teacher to like make their school more like that more just and more personalized for students, Listen to the students needs, you feel me, excuse me, for the filming part, we can edit that. Uh, but I'm gonna say listen to the student needs and in a sense, we were sort of do like a survey or you could be joking around.

00:14:37
So what do you want to do? What are you interested in? Oh, okay. So for example, you're interested in music, what music you want to learn. Um, all these little things to sort of like for them to sort of have an idea of what the student need and try to accomplish it and knock down what these needs are. I'm, to me, I feel like that's the best way to approach it because once you know what the problem is, it's easier for you to focus on what, how to solve it. And I think that's the best way possible to, I guess tackle those. That makes a ton of sense to me because also, I think sometimes teachers assume that we know what students are thinking or wanting or whatever and so there's no way to actually know unless you ask. And so I think that's a great point. I think you mentioned surveys just talking to students. These are all ways that are really great to get to know your students actually like you said, identify the problem. So thank you so much. Those are really good suggestions Rachel. I'm curious to know if there are other things like actions that teachers can take who are listening and they're thinking about, you know, how do I provide the support for every student and to, to do this in the way that you're describing, what things can the teacher or even like, you know, principal due to make that possible.

00:15:54
Are there any other recommendations that you would give? I believe the only way they can do is to pay more attention to the students and to understand what is the students and what their skills is and how they adapted during the classroom. And I love that use of that because I think sometimes teachers feel like, or they think, you know, I have to do all of these lessons and all of these, you know, we have to talk about all these things and all this content that we have to do, we have to finish the whole textbook or whatever. And sometimes it comes at the expense of not interacting with the students as much because they're trying to do the lesson stuff and the relationship stuff, you know, it kind of becomes like not a priority and it happens less. And so I'm wondering because I think high school and college are so different and you've experienced both and so I'm wondering what is the difference being a high school student and being a college student in terms of the amount of time that you get to talk and interact and have relationships with your teachers, there's a huge difference.

00:17:03
They use different. So for example, in high school I had, I had a cross connections, I had a cross connection during the halftime and compared to college college, you don't get that much connection because every single time, for example, really help you need to go to the office or to someone that are saying that can help you. And so for me, most of the time I never use it as extra time and I'm going to tutoring to get extra help because because of my, my learning my level plain and understanding. So I used what is meant for me and I love that you're pointing out too that sometimes in college that it's a tutor, it's not even the teacher that you're working with, it's someone else in like a learning center or something. Yeah, so that's another really important piece to whether, you know, you're in the high school setting or the college setting might be to like, just make sure that everyone has, if the teacher is not available to at least have other tutors or support people to be able to help students.

00:18:05
I think that the more people we have that can support the better and even if that's another student or something, you know, to, to be able to have that support available, it sounds like that has been helpful for you in, in college as we think about like your own school experience and this could be any grade level, you know, kindergarten through college and in any setting. You know what is an experience and you can share more than one if you can't narrow it down to one. But what's an experience that impacted you the most or helped you the most or just is the most memorable experience in in school for you? I got quite a few actually. Um One restorative justice. I don't know if you remember we started just this was definitely the one. Um Because we actually got to discuss about topics that we I don't wanna say we weren't able but topics we didn't have time to discuss in school. Right? So having an extra extra curricular activities that focuses on that was a great one.

00:19:08
Another thing uh sports you know I'm a big sports guy. Um Sports and I think that's the best thing that the school could have have done about applying sports and. Yeah every monday to thursday monday to friday we focus on school math. But having sort of an extra thing outside of you just thinking, thinking and stressing to me was another great one. Um Like I mentioned earlier um Student government and because we are students got to you know show some change in the school and got to do things that we've never done before. That's another one. Um Yeah and some of the extra curricular activities such as the Big Brother Big Sister program and Y. M. C. And whatnot. Those programs I guess changed my views and sort of like built me into learning new skills whether it's leadership skills, networking skills. Um and skills that I guess I get to focus on a specific you know on a specific skill if that makes sense in the sense where let's say if I'm gonna focus on finance I got to you know go to places and got a feel of what it is and whatnot and got internship in order to make that possible.

00:20:31
And to me what that was something that I always appreciative of. I love those examples too because sometimes we think of school is just the academic part and so all of those that you listed are all things that happened maybe outside of the school hours or they're not like a traditional class if they are a class. And so I think that's really important to remember especially when students are coming back now to in person classes a lot of times that you know they haven't seen teachers or been in a school building or had extracurricular opportunities for like a year now in some cases where schools have been completely virtual and I think so many teachers are like how do we support students and how do we make sure we recoup what people are calling like learning loss or like you you know all this stuff about academics but it's also like how do we make kids feel and kids. So sometimes like in high school you know, they're not young kids, but how do we make students and people feel like they're part of a community like that. We have sports, we have leadership experience opportunities, we have the potential to like make these connections that aren't necessarily just academics.

00:21:33
And I think your advice is so helpful, your experience sharing, that is so helpful. And I think it hopefully will translate to advice to people of, don't just think about academics, think about the whole experience of students. So, thank you. I think that's so brilliant Rachel. Was there a school experience that helped you the most or impacted you the most? I would say high school, because I remember during my last scene of high school, we gave to experience like during active time at the last year of school. So I remember we we acted upon that upon the stream for immigrations, you know, for the migration who come here in the US to to receive opportunities in education. We had to act to present our, um, to be the import of the school during the school assembly. And that's that's what caught my attention a lot because by doing that, I mean, during, during that experience, I've been coming on until now, because I remember, so education is very important.

00:22:39
You know, it can help students, It can help your future and that and that's the best experience that I can get through my high school year and I carried on and to college time, and I think that's so important too, because sometimes in small schools like ours was kind of a small school, the high school that we were both at, and so the community opportunity to stand in front of the stage and to present to the whole school was possible because we were smaller. Some people go to schools where, you know, at your college for eggs, it's much larger, and so sometimes it's hard to have that space, but I love that you're speaking about a time when you got to be up in front of the stage, right and up in front of people and and being able to creatively talk about something that, you know, looked like your journey and also could be someone else's journey in the audience. Um and so that's, that's so profound, thank you for sharing that as we wrap up, what is like, the most important thing you want people to remember about this episode, or like one thing where a teacher is listening to this hang up the, the airpods or whatever, and they're just like, okay, I'm gonna go do something related to what you guys were just talking about, like what is that thing you would encourage them to do or to remember again, Just listen, listen to your students, um listen to your students, focus on the needs that you know, that plus to them um get to know your student don't become so friendly with them, but get to them, get to know them and know that, you know, I guess to see the change in classroom and personally, right?

00:24:23
And personally, I had to learn that because um, yeah, I said I was part of the Y. M. C. And I get to run classes and me actually sitting down, getting to know my students and getting to tackle some of the needs was something that I was like, oh, I don't want to see. None of my teachers have done that, but I wish they would have done that more with me. And yeah, so that's one thing I would definitely advise, I guess teachers and students and not students listen to your teachers. Yes, that's what I would say, teachers and students listen to your teachers because yeah, you in school at the end of the educated, they have a license for that. So listen to them. Um teachers as well listen to your students because that sometimes we feel like they're just throwing everything at us. But yeah, take your time listen to your students. And yeah, that's all I can say. That's so profound because I was just talking to a bunch of teachers the other day to who were thinking about like, okay, what's what's the most important thing, you know, that I want to do each day and if we ask ourselves that question, like, what is most important for me to do today as we're about to prepare a lesson or something.

00:25:37
So many times teachers are in the mindset of, I have to cover all this content, I need to get through this, like whatever it is that I'm teaching, but if we really take a step back and think about it, it's usually like, I need to make my students feel seen today, like I need to make eye contact with each one of them and say their names like I need to, you know, make them feel like they are recognized, someone cares that they're here in the school building, that maybe they were having a crappy day and like someone cares about that. And so I think that's such a, the important thing that you're talking about and I love how you're also saying from like, a teacher perspective now, right? You're in that role where you get to do that and like it's possible and you're seeing it's possible and you're seeing the benefits of students and like really reflecting on your own experience, which I think is really profound to be able to see both levels and for you to share both experiences with us. So thank you Rachel, what would that thing be that you would suggest people remember or do? I would like for people to remember that when students go to school they face so many difficulties and challenges they have to go to and some of the students they may not have, like, they may not have the privilege that like other students go for example, in terms of financial aid, like extra help and other school system that the students will need to have in order to complete their girls and their future.

00:26:55
So for me, I believe that the schools, they have to create the system that will benefit all the students so that nobody can be left out. Yeah, I see them. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for for voicing that I think that's so important. And if we don't do those things, you know, we're not really doing much in the way of education, right? If if education is only going to help certain students, that's not a very good system. It has to help all the students and I love that you said that so beautifully. Thank you. Thank you. Is there something and this is a question I just asked for fun at the end of every episode. Is there something that you have been learning about lately? It could be related to school but it could be something totally different to Yeah. So for me, something that I've learned so far, like something interesting that during my involvement at they went because I was so eager and so passionate about to learn about the globe and how and how things are going, you know, like for international selections and affairs.

00:28:01
So for me, my passion began when I was like in college during specially so professor asked a specific question for students to come up with and how they're going to stop that from, from my pickup education and I picked the country, which is called next time at Pakistan. Yeah. I noticed that um, girls, girls, they didn't have the champion civilization. Some of the girls when they didn't have any choice is to go to school in the film. So, so for me that made my rotations and I don't know. And I was like, okay, so if this is a problem, then there might be other problems are going to grow up. Okay. Then I need to, I need to find a way in order to product this, this, um, this problem is to find the solution to that. And that's when I started to go around to check it for the youth organization, the program so that I can learn more understand and what are the things I need to take and prior to my calendar to my current involvement, I'm being received like mentors who helped me to, to talk with the problem to buy like step by step what I need to do and also, yeah.

00:29:18
And also being involved like during like even conferences, uh, there I learned, you know, it's next things, things that I didn't know people I learned and then a lot. So yeah, So that's, that ours has been so far for me and I hope that in the future I will be able to help Children across the world who didn't have the chance to education said Yeah, so that they're gonna say privileged, like other people do. That is so beautiful, Rachel, thank you for sharing that. And I love that it started as a project that your professor asked you to think that that's so creative, I love that as a project and I, I love that, you know, you decided to choose Afghanistan specifically, I think having heard about all the things in the news that's happening in Afghanistan currently, as we're recording this, um that's going to become an even more important question, access to education for girls and and women and that gendered aspect of how the conflict is going to play out and what impact that has on, on girls and women in the country.

00:30:27
So I'm, I'm really excited that you are um one of the many people who is interested in this and you have all these mentors who are going to support in, in creating um you know, an opportunity for people to have more educational opportunities and so you are very inspiring. I'm so proud of you and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it, Rachel, thank you so much for having me today. What is something that you have been learning about lately. So I guess in terms of education, again, learning about my students and what not another thing learning lately. I've taken the time to learn piano how to play piano, I guess. That's amazing. That's a skill that I've been, something I've been trying to learn at that, wow, that is impressive. If you want people to like connect with you or like reach out to you, is that something you're interested in and if so, where is the best place for people to do that?

00:31:35
My email is just my first and last name dot at gmail dot com linkedin is my first and last name instagram is L E L E L I E L D k d G and awesome and we can link those in the show notes with the episode two if people want to click and I'm assuming you're thinking about graduation down the road and looking at jobs and so if people are interested in the finance sector, right, you're interested in internship, perhaps something connect with ali this will be great, he will be amazing Allie, thank you so much for being on the show today, I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me at lindsey Beth alliance or leave a review of the show. So, leaders like you will be more likely to find it until next time leaders continue to think big act brave and be your best self
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