Get Yourself Out of the Trenches with Dr. Dana Goodier

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Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Dana Goodier has 22 years of experience in education. She has taught world languages in English and worked as a middle school administrator. She completed her doctorate degree in educational leadership in early 2020. For her dissertation, she researched reasons parents were opting their students out of high stakes testing at middle schools and how that affected the district accreditation rating. She often speaks at conferences providing educators with techniques to minimize off task behavior into increased time on task. She is the host of the Out of the Trenches podcast which features educators who share their stories of resiliency. Follow her on Twitter @danagoodier and visit her website at www.danagoodier.com. This conversation was recorded in September 28, 2021, so it's being released in April but recorded several months beforehand. *Latest update: Dana's book "Get Yourself Out of the Trenches of Teaching And Into the Light Through Discovering Your True Potential" is set to be published late summer 2022 so keep an eye out for that!
Hi, I'm Lindsay Lyons and I love helping school communities envision bold possibilities, take brave action to make those dreams a reality, and sustain an inclusive, anti racist culture where all students thrive. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach, educational consultant and leadership scholar.

00:01:24
If you're a leader in the education world, whether you're a principal, superintendent, instructional coach or a classroom teacher excited about school wide change like I was, you are a leader. And if you enjoy nerding out about the latest educational books and podcasts, If you're committed to a lifelong journey of learning and growth, and being the best version of yourself, you're going to love the Time for Teachership podcast. Let's dive in
Dr. Dana Goodier, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Dr. Dana Goodier: Thank you.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm so excited to have you here. I just read your professional bio but is there anything else you want to add to further introduce yourself to our listeners today?
Dr. Dana Goodier: Well, we connected because we've both been working with Daniel Bauer of Better Leaders Better Schools and, you know, we have different perspectives. Kind of looking at some of the reading that he does with his mastermind. So we'll talk a little bit about some of the reading. and we'll also talk a little bit about my upcoming book that I will highlight one of your questions.

00:02:31
So, I think we'll just go ahead and get started and then if there's anything I'll add it.
Lindsay Lyons: Perfect. That sounds great. And I was so excited to talk about your book. This is really exciting news. As we kind of jump in to think about like, you know, this big thinking that we do around education. I really like centering Dr. Bettina's Love's quote about freedom dreaming where she says, dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, you know, or really what we're talking about. And so I'm curious to know what that big dream is for you in terms of the field of education and where you see, you know, what's possible for it
Dr. Dana Goodier: So I'm thinking of the macro picture right? You want to dream big? You want all, like if I was to say, all districts across the US right? My big dream is to moving to more equitable practices across all districts, right? We're looking more and more at this since the summer of 2020. But I know it's a slow going process and it really depends on what area of the country you're in. And we're seeing, I know not only where I live in Colorado, but there's different places throughout the US

00:03:34
where there is a lot of strife amongst stakeholders, right? Depending on what is being taught in the classroom, and I know some of those stakeholders might not be comfortable with the teachers teaching about history that has been hidden for many generations. However, as a parent of a current middle school or in two children in elementary school, I know that they're like sponges, right? My son was just talking to me the other day. My 8th grade son was talking to me the other day about, he doesn't want to celebrate thanksgiving this year because he knows the true meaning behind what happened. And you know, so it's just interesting how he's, you know, learned a lot of this stuff recently and just reactions. These kids that pick up things and they're like sponges and how as educated, we just need to know that you know, a lot of us are just learning about some of this history right now. But if we want to make the difference, we need to learn how we can make that difference today, right?
As educators make the difference today, so the youth can make that difference tomorrow, right?

00:04:41
We can have a better place for all of us tomorrow. So, you know, this equitable practices and cultural relevant pedagogy, you know, it may not happen all at once, right? And it may take 5 to 10 years, but I'm hoping and you know, by that time in 2030 or so that we, you know, see a lot more of the history being taught in schools that, you know, has been hit.
Lindsay Lyons: Yes, such great points. And I love that you mentioned to just, you know, like that when we make that change today, now our students can, our young people can, you know, grow and live in that way, that is full of change as they grow older and become teachers and all of that. And so I think about a lot of people being frustrated with having to learn or unlearn, right? Like thanksgiving is a great example : unlearn what they've been taught in elementary school or whatever and then have to relearn. But if we just decide now, like we're actually going to teach factual history, those kids won't have to deal with that as adults. That frustration will be gone because they'll actually just learn it right the first time.

00:05:43
And so I think that's such a good point that you're raising.
I know that for a lot of people that's a really difficult transition to make. You know, like having that frustration and having that recognition that maybe what they learned in their own schooling experience or even how they learned in their own schooling experience, you know, is not working for the kids that they're teaching and should be changed. But I think a lot of that requires a real mindset shift around, like, okay, well I thought education was this way and I was always doing it this way and I'm used to doing it. Right now, I'm trying to do better, I'm trying to make this shift. What do you think that requires, you know, what is that shift that's required for people to really achieve that dream of, like you're saying culturally responsive pedagogy and equitable education?
Dr. Dana Goodier: A great question. You know, and as you pointed out, yeah, it does take intentionality, right? I think it takes being open as a teacher, as a leader, as a practitioner. Whether or not your district, in your school building is adopting more culturally relevant practices, you need to be open to learning more about it. You need to take a stance for what you're teaching in your classroom or how you're leading your school.

00:07:02
So you know, if your district has taken an initiative to adopt certain curriculum and to implement certain things, make sure you're informing yourself in attending trainings, right? Also be open to what you can explore more as an educator, how you can be anti racist. Just be open to a reading, listening to podcasts, attending webinars. There's so much out there today, right? And it's an explosion since summer of 2020 but I know there was a lot out there before.
I remember when I went to job interviews like in 2018 and stuff and I would often be asked, you know, we have a very diverse population and you know, how do you teach students with multiple ethnicities and races? And I would always talk about culturally relevant, relevant pedagogy and how you know, I've learned a lot from the principal Catoly for example, and a lot of his books even before he published his most recent book. But so there's always been a lot of information out there, in books, but more so now than ever that you can just consume via the podcasts. And a lot of what I know we've talked about, you were on my podcast and I just think it's just being that open to learning, of being about lifelong learner and having those difficult conversations with stakeholders if needed,

00:08:30
and with our colleagues?
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, that's a great point, right? That is, that it's being a lifelong learner is so inherent in all that we do if we're going to do it well, like we have to keep growing and evolving. And so I really like that you name that and I will ask a question at the very end that comes back to that because I think it's so fun to think about, you know, how are we living that out?
So you mentioned so many great suggestions for action that people could take. Just even things like listening to podcasts, right? Like these little things that are just going to help us continue that learning journey. And I'm wondering are there other steps or specific practices that you would encourage people to do? In terms of like, you know what you have seen be really successful in your practice or what you encourage the people that you work with to do to really bring that out in themselves, and also the like you said, their colleagues and having those conversations.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So if you're a district leader, a school leader or even somebody who's like a teacher coach, you know, leading professional development at your building or even a department chair,

00:09:36
you can help lead and develop professional development at your school. Even just the teacher, even if you're newer to the building, you can reach out to your administration and talk about like you know, do we have an agenda for teaching any of these practices of this year and how would you feel about having that maybe you know, as it could be a recorded P. D? It could be you know, accessible when teachers have time to access that. And it could be just a discussion that you have in teams as well.
I also think something that's a brave action could be putting out posts on social media. This is for any educator right? And in order to get feedback these could be you know polls. These could be you know, just provocative questions right? This could be you know, images and just kind of starting that conversation with that post. Right? I also think definitely blog and blog posts are important.

00:10:39
So I blog for the Teach Better Team. I know there are a few bloggers out there who are doing blogs and that's becoming more popular you know as yourself. You do blogs and some people who have subscribed to their blogs. They have been starting to do vlogs as well. So whether or not you have a newsletter that goes out or you just blog such as I do for an organization. You know, finding a subject that you can blog or blog about that is not provoking and that you can share out on social media and get feedback just as you would with that thought provoking post. And I think as leaders, leaders can be vulnerable to learn more. You know, you are sending the example for your building, more for your district. So the ed leaders need to keep themselves informed through reading. They need to be attending webinars. There's always I mean, I get a ton of emails so there's always webinars going on pretty much every day right?

00:11:41
Some from some educational organization. So if you are working a full time job but you can set aside two hours maybe in the week to attend a webinar, you can always catch the reporting right? And then you can all also advocate for district pd to support culturally relevant pedagogy. And this could be as I said, it could be a P. D. that's accessible. A synchronously right? It could be something that maybe you're having your whole building attend for maybe half a day right? During a teacher work day. But you know, you also want to gauge how much does your staff know and how much is your staff already using, right? It's not going to be a one size fits all necessarily pd right? And you also want to list the help of some of your staff members who are using this in the classroom and have been using this for years. So have them give examples and have them also be the QnA if they're comfortable because those teachers who want to know more, they're gonna want to know how do you implement this in your classroom.

00:12:43
Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that's so many great examples right there. From you know, from even just asking the question or advocating like what P. D. do we have available, what when can we use it? And also to like, you know, like you said leading the Pd or even leading what I think we would both probably call Pd in the blog space, right? That's professional development in a sense that just extends beyond and so yeah.
I think organizations like Teach Better, great. I mean even things like Learning for Justice formerly Teaching Tolerance, they let you, I think they even pay you for articles that you write if you're accepted. There's so many organizations that will take blog posts from educators and leaders who are just really excited about this work. And so if you're doing it and you have something to share, you know? Absolutely. I would echo that. And I think one of the things that I've learned that makes it a little bit more manageable to kind of wrap my head around blogging, I used to think I have to talk about something different every single. And then I was like, I have a particular niche or set of niches and that's really helpful.


00:13:44
One of the things that you actually do is help teachers to find kind of their PD niche, and I think that sounds really exciting and was a huge like kind of pivot point for me to really harness my energy and focus it around like these key areas. Can you say a little bit more about what you do in this life?
Dr. Dana Goodier: So yes this is a breakout session I've led at a few conferences and I also have offerings on my website for PD to give you, know, in person or virtual PD to districts and schools. And it's basically meeting with teams and departments and narrowing down how you would want to plan out your PD plan for the year. Now you know, if I were to give a training in February you know, you still want to look at kind of what you've already done, right? And there's so many places that you can go. As I've already mentioned webinars, you know podcast, those types of things. But as a team, you want to find out, like what where is an area of focus we want to work on and that you know could be the trauma informed practices, culturally relevant pedagogy. It could be more focused on literacy and you know curricular materials.


00:14:55
So you know, when you're thinking of adult learning, when I developed the P. D., this pd, but also when I was working on the capstone for my doctorate, it was a professional develop module for a school district. I had never written a big pd for adults before, right? And when I got some feedback from the Director of Professional Development in the district, she was just saying, we'll think about how kids work. Right? So when I do this session I talked about, you know, when you start a school year with kids, you think about, you want to help them identify what kind of order they are, right? So as adults, you know we could be visual, auditory or kinesthetic learners right?
And an example I'll tell you of like a conference definitely that has a lot of kinesthetic learning that I've spoken at is the SHAPE Conference. It's the pe teacher conference, right?

00:15:56
So you're gonna have obviously a lot of things with jump ropes and those type of things. But are you the type of learner whether or not you teach P. E. that likes a type of session and this will mostly for those in person sessions but it could be for virtual, likes type of session where you're getting up and about in your, you know, you have hands on things, right? You're moving around, it's not just to sit and get. Or are you the type of learner who just likes to listen. So I would say probably myself because I consume a lot of podcasts and you know, I'll go on a run and I'll listen to these podcasts a lot of time. I'll probably say I'm an auditory learner, right? But I do like to listen and then take notes a lot of the time as well. You know, some people are those visual learners and they'll read read, read. You know, those are the people who consume a lot of the, the post, the visual posts and read a lot of these blocks. So, you know, I will, I always start out that at the session by talking about what type of learner are you, right? And then just narrowing down those choices and I highlight things like getting started with a book club.

00:16:59
And I think that's something that a lot of schools did start during the shutdown in the spring of 2020. But some schools probably haven't even thought about that still yet, right?
And I was part that spring also in the district of a book club with, it was the, it was a book by Diana Graber about teaching. Well, I don't remember exactly the name of the book, but it's about technology and tech tools and teaching students, right. With the tech tools and, you know, cyber safety. Right? So, you know, when you have those type of book clubs and it could be a synchronous or it can be live, right? And leading the book clubs for your school and, you know, having people learn through just reading of, you know, chapters and I know both of us have been in the mastermind. We read books and we discussed those and we might not always get to the chapters during the session that we're meeting with the group

00:17:59
, but just how you're being held accountable, right? You're being told to read those chapters. You're learning a lot from the book that you're reading. So I think that's a big part of it in finding your pd niche and, you know, there's a lot more I could say, but I encourage people to check out the trading I guess. And if you'd like to have, speak to your school or district or you know, all be speaking hopefully at conferences coming up as well, sending out several proposals for, there are some in person conferences in the spring.
Lindsay Lyons: That's amazing. And I love that you're talking about content and also process, right? Like how do you learn as well as what is your kind of area of focus? And I love that it's focused and it's also, I think for leaders hearing this, recognizing that their teachers learn in a variety of ways. And so even if as a school we have the same similar content focus or as a team, that's going to need different mechanisms of delivery, just like you said. With students, how they learn, and I think that's a great, just even reminder, if that's already something people are like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.

00:19:04
I mean as a leader to be like, do I have the option for someone to consume during their commute a podcast or something, you know, where we can multitask when our plates are already so overloaded. I think as educators many times like how do I, you know, tap into what my teachers really need in that way. So super valuable. I encourage everyone to go check out Dana's website and I'll link to that in the show notes to in the blog post for the episode.
The other thing I'm really interested in your work on is working with stakeholders to identify attendance challenges in students history. Also, you know, pre Covid even, right? And that cycle of truancy, like how do we really how do we stop that? How do we really address what's going on there at the root?
Dr. Dana Goodier: And like you said, it's getting to the bottom of the problem, like looking at the root cause. Right? So I'll give an example. So when I've worked as an Attendance Dean for example. I looked at seventh grader and you want to look at data. You know, going back several years. You're not just looking at the seventh grade year. You want to look at, you know, how are they attending, even back to fifth grade, even in elementary school, right?

00:20:16
And depending on what type of data system your district uses, a lot of districts use Infinite Campus, but you might be using something that has a visual, you know, you could use graphs, things like that. But drilling it down to looking at the days of the week that the student didn't attend, which is often those bookends of the weekends, right? The Monday in the Friday, right? It could be, if you're looking at a secondary school student looking at certain teachers to the student isn't attending the class of right? Or looking at certain times of day. The student might be rolling in at 10:30 in the morning.
So you definitely want to look at some of those pieces in order to be able to turn around the cycle of truancy, right? Because whether or not you're in an administrative position, working with attendance or you're a teacher and you're just trying to get your students come to class. Because that was something when I taught French for example. And, you know, you're teaching new things all the time and you're teaching them foreign language,

00:21:21
you know, become frustrating if I didn't see a student for a couple of weeks. So I was very much on top of making sure I contacted the parents and finding out, you know, if there's something that was going on at home and you know, making sure that the student was able to pick up missing worker coming for help. But you know, you really just got to form those relationships. I think it's also like knowing like if the high schoolers coming in the third period they, you know, missed 1st and 2nd. And it could be because of dropping off a younger sibling. It could be you know, a middle school or who is just not waking up because there's nobody at home when school starts. It could be you know, there's peers in a certain teachers class and they just don't want to be around those peers. So it's not just, you know, it's not using the punitive approach.
I know so long districts, you know, they look at the parties and they'll, you know, say you have all these absences and it's just gonna stack against you and you know, some some districts have gone to the extremes that say, you know, if you have X

00:22:26
number of absences, you're going to get a letter grade, a lower letter grade or something like that. So I think it's stopping the truancy in its tracks before it's too late, right? So if you're working with student attendance at the beginning of the year, you want to look at you know, the historical data, right? Look at how they were last year. Look at it and it averages have taken place, right? There's the RTI Process and TSS Process. However, you know, educators have stretched them, like you're saying. So have there been people that have reached out? So and then like looking throughout the year, right? If you're in November December, right? How has the student's attendance been? If you're getting towards winter break and the student is approaching the 10-15 days of absences, unexcused absences, you know, they are approaching that chronically truant label, right? And they might be up for a student review board at their district, which could lead to truancy court, right?


00:23:27
So then it gets more serious. So it's keeping track of those students. It's making sure that them and their parents are well informed of the need to attend. And I know it's, you know, I'm talking mostly about pre Covid, but you know, we have a lot of students right now who are coming back into the building in the fall of 2021. And you know, they might not have attended if their school was virtual most of the year last year. They might not have attended much, right? So it's kind of getting used to being back in the building.
It's if there's a high school where for example, who took a full time job and it's still in that job. It's finding other options. Means those districts do have some type of an online option or alternative school. So it's finding other ways to achieve those credits for those high schoolers. So, but I think it's, you know, it's that team, it's a team approach is that process. It's the communication with the stakeholders and it's everybody who works with the student. Also just being on board to help the students succeed and to pass along the information needed to the parents.

00:24:30
And, you know, if the parents are really busy, they're working two or three jobs, it's also just making sure the student is aware and you know, that there's some type of a family member who also maybe grandparent or somebody who really knows the importance of that student getting to school on time.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow! So many wonderful ideas there. And I, they, you know, resonate intellectually. But also I found myself at times resonating personally because I always was a person who struggled to get there first thing in the morning. So I had my brother and my sister and I was the oldest. I was the one who always drove and I would always have to like corral everyone in. We would always be late. And the policy was, if you're late three times you get detention and what that actually manifested as I was late to softball practice or basketball practice or I couldn't go to math tutoring, which I did after school. Like I needed that tutoring to pass the class. And so it's interesting how these punitive things that we actually put into place might actually hurt people's experience in the school of belonging or in extracurriculars or with academic, you know, progress.

00:25:33
And so I think so much of that resonated with me and just looking at all of the data, thinking to look the year before or, you know, a few grades before, brilliant. And I don't know why I like, I've never thought about that or I've never heard of anyone doing that, so I really appreciate you naming that.
I also want to make sure we save time to talk about your book and I'm really excited about this, so it's going to be published by the Road To Awesome Publishing. Can you tell us more about the book? What's it about? You know, how did you come to this idea or what's it been like to write the book? Whatever you think would be interesting for people.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So, you know, I came to the idea, I would say, you know, having hosted my podcast Out of the Trenches that I launched in May of 2020. And, you know, I got this idea basically a year later. Kind of May, June of 2021. You know, I've had a lot of people on who were launching their books and you know, I had a couple of those people were publishing through Road To Awesome. So, you know, and I read their books and, you know, it kind of got the idea. You know, I've written a doctorate, I did a capstone instead of a dissertation, but it was still quite lengthy and went through that process of getting it approved and everything. But you know, this is not academic work, right?


00:26:48
The fact that we have to have, you know, certain academic language and, you know, all our bibliography a certain way that the university requires. Right? So it's not that hard. I would say of writing is when you're doing a doctorate. So, you know, I've written a lot of blogs the past year. I've been writing with Teach Better team. But also when you're writing a book, you know, you have to kind of think about the big picture, right? So, I would say a challenge is kind of writing over a longer period of time right now. I'm aiming to get a manuscript done probably in the next month or so. So, you know, and I'm hoping depending on the kind of turnaround process with the edits and all that, that it would be out in the spring of 2022.
So it is about, you know, the out of the trenches, where what are they basically is your trench? Right? A lot of people have interviewed for the podcast would say they are currently in the trenches and they like being in the trenches. So, you know, that a lot of people would say they defined the trenches as the work with the students and getting there, you know, feet dirty. So, you know, what does that mean for you?

00:28:00
You know, how is that, how does that manifest in your work and the difference you make in kids lives? You know, another part of that is also finding your why, and why it's important to define your why. I think since the pandemic started, a lot of people are kind of re-evaluating their why, right? A lot of people are shifting to different types of positions or leaving education altogether. So it's redefining your why, finding out what's important. It's also about really what is the trench? And is it something that you want to get out of?
So, on my podcast, I always ask people, tell me about the time when you're in the trenches and managed to crawl out. And you know, as I said, some people say, I'm currently still in the trenches, but a lot of people might go back to when they first started teaching, right, in a difficult situation or something that caught them off guard, right? It's something they learned from and became a better person.


00:29:01
So, you know, these, I would say kind of roller coaster situations, as educators kind of what have they taught us. So that's also a part of it is you know, we all go through challenges. You know, failure does not define us. So those are some of the big ideas for the book and there is a video about the book and you could put the link in the show notes. It's on the road to Austin dot net website. So there's a bunch of authors listed there, but under my information, there is a short video where I talk about it and yeah, people can find out more. So I'm excited.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm excited too. That sounds amazing and I encourage people to check that out. I will draft that link. You have gone through so many amazing, really concrete both examples and suggestions for people to take as they are listening to this episode. I'm sure people's minds are kind of like all over the place of like, oh, I could do this or this and so I'm wondering what's a good starting point for people?

00:30:04
So if they're really trying to live in alignment with those values of justice and equity and that dream that you shared at the start, you know. Where might be a good place to start as kind of the one next thing that they could do.
Dr. Dana Goodier: Yeah, I think it's just finding the resources that you need to inform yourself on equitable practices. And you know, there's so much out there, but you know, you could, if you want to start from scratch, it's just Google it, right? Articles, you know, what's been recently published? What are some good people to follow? Right? It's also attending pd which it could be those webinars.] It could be listening to a podcast and I'll suggest one in the next question. But it's also having those conversations with colleagues. So if you are working with colleagues who are currently, you know, and have been using culturally relevant pedagogy for a long time, it's asking questions. What can I do to be more open and learn more about this? You know, there's a lot of people who have a lot of resources they can share.

00:31:09
It's asking questions, you know, if you are teaching, if you are a white educator and you're teaching mostly students of color, it's asking, you know, how do I present this topic or am I going about it the right way or you know, being aware of our biases are unconscious biases, right? And not being afraid to ask because I think as educators we know that, you know, as I said, people are always learning and we all want to support each other. So I don't think people will look at others negatively if they have those questions and they want to learn more and they're being vulnerable in the fact that, you know, I might not be so important about this particular topic and I want to learn more and I think that opens the door to just that, just having a more constructive conversation with a colleague and developing a better relationship with somebody we might not have really known before, we might have worked with for several years.
Lindsay Lyons: That is great advice.

00:32:10
Thank you. And I'm curious to know, I know I previewed this earlier, but I love asking this question at the end. What is something, as a lifelong learner, that you have been learning about lately?
Dr. Dana Goodier: Well, so in the Mastermind with Daniel Bauer, we've been reading about the history of the caste system in America. The book is Caste by Isabel Wilkerson and it is a history book pretty much, but it kind of ties things into more modern history as well. And in some parts of the book, it parallels, the treatment of African Americans in America and parallels that with treatment of the Jews during Nazi Germany. And so I think that's interesting and also talks about kind of how this is effective modern society, right? So very eye opening. Some people would say it's a difficult read. I really don't think it's a difficult read. It just, it kind of goes into many, I'm not done with it yet, but it just goes into so many areas. And so I would definitely suggest that book and anything that's, you know, more just about like, so as I mentioned earlier, like principal Catoly, I forgot the name of his most recent book. But you know, culturally relevant pedagogy books that he's written right? The 100 things that you want to know.

00:33:43
So those are either easier reads right, that you can read in a few days. Also I want to suggest the Leading Equity podcast with Dr. Sheldon Eakins. I had him on the podcast about a year ago, but he has his own podcast that he's been putting episodes out for several years. And so he's a lot of the episodes. He, it seems to me he's interviewing people who are maybe at the university level or people who have read books on equity and kind of their experiences with, you know, kind of teaching and students that they've interacted with, but, you know, very thought provoking conversations as well.
Lindsay Lyons: I would strongly echo both of those. Caste was one of the best books that I think I've read in the last couple of years and Leading Equity is one of my favorite podcasts. So I definitely agree with those recommendations.
Speaking of podcasts, you have your own podcast. So people should go check that out right? Out of the Trenches, you named before. And then where else can people find you online or connect with you or learn about what you're doing.
Dr. Dana Goodier: So, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. my Twitter handle is just my name@DanaGoodier.

00:34:50
I also have a podcast Out of Trenches PC and on Instagram it's Out of Trenches PC. You can find me on LinkedIn and also my website is just my name, danagoodier.com.
Lindsay Lyons: That's amazing. Thank you Dana so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate this conversation.
Dr. Dana Goodier: It was my pleasure.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for listening, amazing educators. If you loved this episode, you can share it on social media and tag me @lindsaybethlyons or leave a review of the show, so leaders like you will be more likely to find it. Until next time leaders, continue to think big, act brave, and be your best self.

​*Latest update: Dana's book "Get Yourself Out of the Trenches of Teaching And Into the Light Through Discovering Your True Potential" is set to be published late summer 2022 so keep an eye out for that!
Links: 

• Caste by Isabel Wilkerson
• The Leading Equity Podcast with Dr. Sheldon Eakins 
• Video preview of Dana's book
• Dr. Goodier can be found on: 
  • Website (podcast & PD are on here!) 
  • Twitter (Dana & podcast)
  • Instagram
  • LinkedIn

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