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1/29/2024 148. Hiring for Transformation and Building Effective Teams with Dr. Eric SkansonRead Now
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Given the challenges of hiring during a teacher shortage, Dr. Skanson takes us behind the scenes to look at his process of how to effectively hire teachers who are a great fit and then build a values-driven staff community. Dr. Skanson also delves into the strategies he employs to navigate biases in the hiring process and the vital role of mindset and disposition in hiring.
In addition to being part of the foundation of School Pro K12, Dr. Eric Skanson has over 17 years of experience in public school administration and 24 years of education at large. He is a seasoned leader focusing on positive change, outstanding culture, and collaboration. Through his doctorate, Dr. Skanson’s academic core focus was on the use of collaboration for organizational improvement. The Big Dream Providing opportunities and experiences for students that they wouldn't have access to otherwise. Dr. Skanson emphasizes the importance of nurturing a mindset that views education as a means to impact communities positively. His ultimate goal is to enhance student growth and make schools a nurturing and compassionate space for students. Alignment to the 4 Stages: Mindset, Pedagogy, Assessment, and Content Dr. Skanson believes in the importance of mindset in the hiring process. He argues that a positive disposition is essential in educators. Specifically, Dr. Skanson is looking for educators who are positive, kind, and supportive, emphasizing the human aspect of education. Pedagogically, he stresses the need for diversity and balance in teaching teams to create an enriching learning environment. Regarding content, he encourages educators to be conscious of the context, and craft their teaching approach based on their specific school and student community. Mindset Shifts Required We need to acknowledge and challenge the biases that often surface during the hiring process. How do we hire effectively? Here are the key ideas Dr. Skanson wants leaders to keep in mind… Key 1: Emphasize character, competency, and craft in hiring, over mere credentials. Step 2: Conduct a systematic and thoughtful interview process, focusing on asking the right questions (ones that ask about a candidate’s actual experience versus just a theoretical approach) and understanding the candidate's actual impact on students. Step 3: Ensure diversity and balance in the team, considering the specific needs and context of the school community. Challenges? There can be tension between internal and external candidates during the hiring process. Dr. Skanson suggests having a good succession plan in place and controlling the process to make it fair for all candidates. “I think every interview, especially for school leadership positions, should have a balance of an internal and an external [candidate]. However, you have to control the process to make it fair for internals and externals…people will bring in extra information about the internal candidates…let the person talk about their experiences and leave about all the other things [horns bias],” Dr. Skanson said. One Step to Get Started Slow down the hiring process and take the time to understand the candidate's character, competency, and craft. Rather than rushing to fill a position due to a scarcity mindset, he advises leaders to focus on finding the right person who will truly contribute to the school's success. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on www.schoolprok12.com and on social media @skansone. To help you implement the ideas of creating a new staff community following new hires, I’m sharing my Staff Meeting Agenda series starting with co-creating Community Values & Agreements with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 148 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT Today, I'm speaking with Doctor Ericsson. In addition to being part of the foundation of school pro K 12, Doctor Eric Scan has over 17 years of experience in public school administration and 24 years of education at large. He is a seasoned leader focusing on positive change, outstanding culture and collaboration. Eric has served on the executive board of Mesa Minnesota Elementary School Principals Association since 2014. In 2019, Eric was elected as the Minnesota Elementary Principals Association, Mesa president and 900 member professional advocacy group. He represented Minnesota in 2019 as Elementary principal of the year. He's an adjunct professor for both Bethel University and Saint Cloud State University. He received his doctorate in education from the University of Minnesota in 2016 to the Department of organizational leadership and policy development. His academic core focus was on the use of collaboration for organizational improvement. Eric has used his developed models to help shape the purpose and outcomes of collaboration in multiple organizations for positive change. Let's get to the episode. Educational justice coach Lindsay Lyons and here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. 00:01:09 I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings if you're a principal, assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nering out about co-creator curriculum of students. I made this show for you. Here we go. Doctor Eric Sam. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I am great. It is uh a nice cool fall day here in Minnesota. And I'm so happy to be on the show with you and um excited to talk about how we can do education, do it better. I mean, that's our job, right? Is, is uh to do it better every season. Yes. Always striving for growth. Absolutely. So, I know a lot of people want to add things to their bio or they want to like, you know, go away from either the professional or talk about what's on their mind at the moment, which a static bio doesn't really do. I just want to give you space first off to say anything that you think listeners should keep in mind or know about you as we jump into the conversation today. 00:02:13 Well, uh, gosh, outside of bio, I think, uh, one thing that people should know is, uh, I have a, a brood of kids at home. So I've got five kids at home um ranging from ages 16 down to five. So everybody's in school is here, which really, I think it's really good for us as educators to remember that. Um our main constituents out here are the students and the parents and sometimes we forget that right. We get, we get locked in our own world of uh education and talk, ed, talk and uh we forget at the end of this logic model, it's about kids and students and families and communities. And, uh, uh, it's good, it's good to have that many kids and to think about like, how does that impact my viewpoint on education as a parent? So that's, that's a cool thing to add, I think. And I think a little tidbit, uh, I like to tell people I know how to juggle fire and knives. So that's just, uh, that's just a, like a freebie that I'm gonna throw in there. I love the out of left field ideas. 00:03:14 Those are the best. That is a very impressive, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Only burned a few times. I was gonna ask how dangerous is this? Um, ok. Well, that's good. And, uh, as we think about, like, I think the, the grounding that you gave us for, like, thinking about students, families and communities, I just love that. And I, and I think a lot about what I, when I can center that in conversations with with the people. I work with teachers, leaders oftentimes we're we're thinking of freedom dreaming, which Doctor Bettino love talks about his dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So like, how do we do that school better? Like you're talking about every year, how do we get better and how do we ground all of it in the work of supporting and partnering with students and families and communities? All of those are big considerations. So I'm wondering kind of like, what's the dream look like for you considering all those things? Well, you know, one of the things that I always, I, I try to end my conversations with or my writings with um I always give out three letters which is PKS, which is positive, kind and supportive. 00:04:19 And it's a really simple concept, but it's amazing how much we need to like ground back to these ideas that everybody is human and how do we treat people, treat, treat people in a human way, which for me, I like to boil it down to those pieces. Can we stay positive? Can we stay kind? Can we stay supportive? And that does not mean that it's free from hard conversations does not mean that um we don't take context into consideration with that. Um But I, I do think that is a reasonable ask is that when we're working with people that we stay positive, kind and supportive. Um So that's kind of the lens that I always try to, to, to deliver on is a positive kind and supportive and uh some days are easier than others, but I would challenge everybody out there uh to really think about what are your words that, that you can boil down to three letters and, and uh and make that part of your motto, part of your life, part of your, your work going forward. I stole that honestly from a friend of mine named John. Um he used it and I was like, I love that. 00:05:21 I said, I'm gonna use it. I'm, I'm gonna run with it. And I have um I talked to students about it, I talked to teachers about it. I talked to administrators about it. Like that is the frame in which uh I like to try to move that dream forward. Um So I like if to make that even bigger. Uh you know, I think education is about opportunity and experiences. And for me, the dream is how do we provide opportunity, experiences that, that, that people would not have an opportunity to do without our help. So whether that's on a small scale, if that is um you know, making sure that we, we take particular field trips or, or experiences that give access to our students that they would not previously have had um or on a on a larger scale, a scale is, is how do we provide an education that makes kids and communities believe in what they have as a resource. Um so that they, they can be contributing partners. And in this commonwealth going forward, I, I really believe that it's one of the larger ideas that we have lost is that this idea that we have a commonwealth in our nation. 00:06:32 And, you know, if it's, if it's a nation or if it's your state or if it's your school or your community, we all contribute to this, this community or this commonwealth. And that would be my hope is that at the end of the day, we've contributed to the commonwealth. I love that so much. That is so good. And I, I think there's so many things that you just said that I wanted to make sure that listeners heard and I think that that's a huge one, right? Like contribution to the commonwealth, giving access and, and the experiences that students might not otherwise have outside of education. Um I think about this in the context of like student leadership, a lot of people talk about individual skill building, but it's really, especially with youth, right? It's about the supports we offer to build up the the leaders and give the access to that opportunities to be leader. So it's kind of this interplay of the individual and the community, um which I just love that you, you anchored this conversation and, and then I also wanted to say you anchored the, the pks in or you, you caveat it the pks with, like, we're still having hard conversations, we're still considering context. 00:07:34 And I just think that is brilliant because a lot of people could take pks as a concept and be like, oh, just be nice to everybody, you know, and, and avoid the hard conversations because that hurts people's feelings. Right. And I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's more of a way of thinking and, um, in that we can have hard conversations, we can have uh hold people accountable, but it doesn't mean that we can't do it in a positive kind of part of way, you know, because that's modeling, right? And you, I like that. You talk about student leadership. Absolutely. Student leadership is about building themselves but it's also about their impact on their community or their commonwealth because that's really what we need is, is young people to grow up and be leaders who see the world in a place that they can affect that they can um impact and have that impact. But what if, what if they hadn't had that experiences or those opportunities? There's, there's leadership lost, there's a, there's a, there's an opportunity gap there that I wanna make sure that people have that opportunity to lead in their communities. 00:08:38 I love that. And I, and I think it makes me think about too, like beyond the, you know, being leaders as adults too, like, even sometimes when students lead projects within their student years right? It is like transformative sometimes when the students like it just makes adults listen more when it's like, oh students are leading this charge. Like I am going to either adapt my behavior, listen differently, interact differently with this project because it is student led and I care about students. And so I think there's such potential there too, which is is fun. Oh yeah, I mean talking with students with the student change, it's like a wedge in the door, right? Like we wanted to do this as adults. Oh wait, no, it's actually the kids that are leading this which opens that door, right? Just enough to, to open minds and open uh hearts for, for these change makers and these, these deciders in our, in our communities uh let the kids have access to them 100% let the kids have access to them. It is, it is a different approach. 00:09:40 Absolutely. And, and it makes me think, I know we wanted to talk a little bit about from a leader lens. Like how do you kind of create this community? So typically what I think of is I think of things like the mindset of the educators, the adults, right? Which I think is a huge factor in what we're talking about now. It's also, you know, the pedagogy of how do you build up the skills for all students? Not just your typical quote un leaders, right? That are like the the people who are like captains of the sports teams or presidents of the classes, right? And, and also it's like, how do we assess and have those authentic experiences and projects that are beyond? Just like, you know, the tests and things that school typically is historically and how do we make sure the content is, you know, co created by students, how do we make of that? And so I, I just wonder like as a leader who is responsible for creating that, that culture school wide and hiring folks who are going to contribute positively to that. What are the things that we, we have to consider as leaders? Well, I'm so glad you brought up hiring because that's, this is one of the things that I'm really passionate about in, in that um finding the right people curating the talent for your organization. 00:10:47 And we need to remember again, that context matters. I I it's one of my axioms that I have lived my life on is, is context always matters. So whatever it can happen in, in, in situation A but that doesn't mean that you can apply that in situation. B always, always be aware of the context. And to be honest, Lindsay, this comes back, I was a driver head teacher at one point in my career. And um you know, one of the things that I would always teach kids is yes, we need to know where we're going. You need to have the destination but along the way, we have to make sure that um we're making small adjustments based on the context around. You're always, you're always teaching about risk assessment. Um And I don't like that term in this, this instance, but uh you know, we, we have to know what's happening around us so we can make the best decisions. Um So coming back to hiring uh these opportunities for students for me, uh how do I say this? I've, I've, I've evolved in my thinking around um teacher licensure. 00:11:50 Uh I for those that don't know, I am a uh I'm a director of a charter system uh in Minnesota. And right now, we're in a teacher shortage. So we've had to really work to fill our positions and in Minnesota, we call them tier one. So these are people with four year degrees that um we, we have a good background in the content that we're bringing them in to teach. And what I have found is that, that disposition um for PKS is really, really important. So they may be the best art teacher. They may be the, let me back that up. They may have a really good understanding of art or science or you name it. But if we can't kind of tease out that disposition of how they approach their classroom based on the context of your school, uh that there's no guarantee of, of success there. So, um I think we really have to find that character piece first. So I'm gonna drop an another acronym here. CCC three CS of what I look for in hiring. 00:12:54 Number one is character. They have to have top character first because I don't care who you are if you don't know how to treat people, right? Positive and supportive, if you don't have a good work ethic, um, it doesn't matter. Number two is around competency. So this is where we're starting to talk about. Uh Do we have a competency in science? Do we have a competency in math? Do we have a competency in art? And then finally, the, the really fun part I think about teaching is craft. Um How do you approach it? Uh And you know, what's your particular flavor for what you do? And I think that's, those are really three things that you have to examine when, when hiring people to bring in your school notice. I didn't, I didn't uh add 1/4 C which is credentials. Um That's not in there. Um I really do believe it's character and competency and craft that uh determined who is the best fit for your particular school? Oh, those are good. I love all the acronyms too. This is very fun. It's easier to remember it. Right. Totally. Totally. And so this is really interesting. So I think about the mindset piece that is usually the term that I use, but I love the idea of a disposition, right? 00:14:00 So, if we're not looking at anything else, we're just looking at the disposition and the mindset and the willingness to engage with students as partners, families, as partners. Right. I think that, that absolutely makes sense. As kind of like the first. Like, if you don't have this, then you don't even almost, I don't know if I'm right. You can correct me. It almost seems like you don't get to the competencies in the craft, right? Like that's, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter, it does not matter. I would, I would challenge people when you are interviewing people and talking with people. We have to stop, we have to stop asking theoretical questions because, and you can answer those. So, you know, if, if you're interviewing with me and, and I say, you know, what's the best way to, you know, approach classroom management in a, in a, in a, in a high poverty school? Um Anybody can answer that. Anybody can answer that. But if I change that question just a little bit, and I say, Lindsay, tell me a story about a time where your classroom management really impacted the success of the classroom. 00:15:06 And I have no problems in uh interrupting you. If I'm interviewing. If you're not answering the question, I'll say no, no, no, no, tell me about your impact because sometimes people will, will kind of wrap it together with. Well, we did, we, you know, we did PB is at our school and, you know, we had a, you know, you, you name it, you know, we had the, the Spartan way or whatever, whatever it could be. No, I wanna know your impact Lindsey. Tell me what you did on the PB A S team to, to, to work on standards of, of character. And um, and that's where you really get at the disposition of work ethic of character of, um, you know, are you positive kinds of hor you can tease those things out and we have to do a better job of asking those questions. I really like the idea of storytelling as, as kind of an entry point. And it, it makes me think too about the opportunities for the existing staff, like the staff that's already on, on the team to story tell around some of these too because sometimes I think, you know, we ask the questions in an interview, we get everybody sorted and then like the person who hasn't gone through an interview in 10 years, like, do they know what story they would tell in that instance? 00:16:15 And what would be the benefit of having an audience for that story or the story from last week or, you know, almost like storytelling is like an ongoing, I don't know if it's check in, but just like almost honoring of the human teacher experience as well, right? Um And so I think this is, this is really cool idea of this offering the opportunity to share the stories almost as a space for reflection as well. I know this is probably not where you were thinking of going. I think it's good. Yeah, I wonder what those possibilities are for. Like, I think what I'm thinking is you hire people who come in, right. And you have these great hires and you hire, well, and you have a bunch of folks who are already in positions and, and what does that look like in the hiring process kind of bring people together around pks around the dispositions and the, the, the classroom style and the craft and the like, what does that look like um to merge the new folks and the folks who have been here? Well, I, I think it is your responsibility as an administrator to know your team and know your people well. 00:17:17 So it goes beyond just hiring, it, it goes into a, a depth of, do I know who you are at your core? Do I know what your values are? Um, love to do values exercises with people so that I, that we can kind of tease that out? And the reason I tell you that we have to know the whole team is because, you know, if we're hiring a bunch of, um if the team is already like an A and a and a, do we really need to hire another, a, they may be a, a great candidate, but I would challenge people to think about diversity on your team. You know, when you, when you go back to um Bruce Tuckman's work around um group formation, um There's some really interesting ideas there about uh letting people pass through kind of the, the storming stage uh so that they can have this group identity. And in the end, uh we, we wanna focus on task conflict, task conflict is good. It means that in the end, we have a better product for our kids, for our teams, for our school, for our community. 00:18:20 Just Lindsay popping in here to tell you about today's freebie for the episode in relation to Eric and I talking about co creating community values and agreements. I think you'll love my staff meeting agenda series which starts with a whole staff meeting agenda and the slide deck for co creating community values and agreements. You grab that at Lindsey Beth lions.com/blog/one 48 back to the episode. Uh The, the trap there is that when we have relational conflict that, that creeps into our team. So the reason I say that is, you know, maybe if, if you have four people on your team and we're trying to hire 1/5 1, do we wanna hire another A or do we wanna actually bring somebody in who adds something extra to the team? So if you're forced, you know, in the end, you have choice A and Choice B and they're both really good. I would always, always go with choice B and that's really hard for the interview team sometimes. Uh because they, they are attracted to light people like, oh, they'd fit in so well. Well, then you're all gonna be doing the same thing, right? 00:19:24 You're all bringing the same strengths to the team. So, uh it's about balance and diversity and making sure that uh that we have a nice balanced team going forward. Yeah, it makes me think of the the the mm middle of these interviews. Usually I'm, I'm talking about brave actions and it makes me think of brave actions on multiple levels like brave actions as the leader, right? Who, who is coaching almost the hiring committee to make these decisions, uh brave actions for the parameters or the almost like checklist of like we are going to focus on character first and competencies, then craft, right? Like we, you're kind of putting that out there and then also bravery and like, how do you almost like, how do you assess bravery in the candidate to be hired as well? Right? In the, in the storytelling and, and those things. So I don't know which one of those directions you want to take it, but my brain is going all of my um well, bravery. Yes, I I love brave people. Um That sounds like such a like generic statement but yes, I love brave people, um courageous people, people who are willing to speak up and talk and again, that doesn't mean we get to be a jerk about it. 00:20:31 Right. So that comes back to that disposition of pks. Like, how do you find those people that can do that in a way that is positive and supportive? Um Yeah, I, I mean, part of this for me points to the fact too that we don't do a good job of, of training our interview teams before going into these interviews and setting expectations of what it is exactly that we're looking for like, all too often. I think we just, hey, do you want to serve on the team? Yep. Come on in, we're interviewing Tuesday at one. Um Oh, you're not available. Ok. You know, and, and that's how these interviews are usually set up and I'm appalled because a lot of it even goes all the way up to our top school leaders like the haphazardness that happens when, when we're pulling um an interview together, it has to be so much more thoughtful and, you know, what are the outcomes we're looking for? What is the exact skill set that we're looking for? Um, on top of, you know, character competency craft and what ha I, I mean, I've seen it so many times we ended up in interviews and there's these biases that happened and without the training on the front end and really bringing out uh a specific talk around, you know, this idea of like confirmation bias or um stereotyping bias or halo effect bias. 00:21:51 I love that one. that, that's when we're influenced by one positive aspect of, of an interview person. Oh, they said they were really great at technology really. They said they, you know, they had a Google classroom, you know, we like, we, we attach meaning in, in interviews and without the training that happens at the front end, um, it's really set up for disaster similarity bias. That that's the one I was trying to think of in that. Oh, I really like this person. I feel like I could, you know, be best friends with them. That's not what we're asking for here that we're not interviewing for your best friend. We're even for a great team member. Oh, I love that idea. So I I'm just kind of like taking notes here. It seems like we have the clear expectations of who we want in the interview committee set those, we have the training for the interview committee. Um We have the outcomes beyond the CCC and also like the skill set that we're looking for in addition to considering the existing team that that person is coming into and diversity there. And then all throughout, we're kind of checking against that training for all these biases. 00:22:53 Does that sound like a good summary? Yeah. Yeah. And this is why it gets so uh jacked up about interviewing and like the hiring process is we, I don't think people do it. Well, to be honest, I think there's a lot of people that um fall trapped to the, the common missteps and they are not diligent about setting up the interview in a balanced way. Um I would even challenge, you know, sometimes when we have uh these, these interviews for our, our largest and biggest ed leaders in a district, there is a trap there to be. This sounds weird but too inclusive where, where all of a sudden our interview team is 30 people around the table and um more than likely close to 30 of them have never been part of an interview process before or have taken any work in um hr and, and know the legalities of what you can and can't ask. Um So then it actually makes, if you're going to do that, you have to spend the time training the interview team on what what you can and cannot ask. 00:24:01 You have to bring out these ideas around. Here's some bias you may experience. So giving them the language to identify the bias when they, when they hear it. Um It's just, it's so important as we're to do this with some, some fidelity and some intentionality. So that because again, at the end of this logic model, all these things affect how our schools run, how our schools contribute to our commonwealth and the success of our kids going forward. Um It is all interlinked and, and we have to do a better job of recognizing the links between hiring to our school success, to um happy, healthy classrooms and communities. I love this and, and it, it made me actually think about the Inclusive Feast. I, I definitely have been in, in an interview position where there's like 15 people around the table and you're like, who do I look at? And like, there's questions everywhere. I, I also have thought about, you know, the process that a lot of folks go through demo lessons with students from the school they'll be going into. 00:25:04 I wasn't sure if you have like a recommended kind of series of things like, is there the interview, the demo lesson are students part typically part of the interview committee or is there feedback when they're part of like a demo lesson? I, I'm just wondering about the student voice in this as well. Yeah, I mean, that, that really depends on how much you can allocate um for time and, and effort. And I would argue that you should like to whatever end degree, slow down, make good decisions include the people that you want a voice from. Um As long as you know, everybody has kind of been well informed of what we're looking for. Um And I, I do love the idea of student voice in there. Um Again, I think it's really important that if we're bringing students in to share their voice, how do we give them some information of what to look for some look for us um talking about, you know, what does, what does a good teacher look like? And in the end, we're building student leadership, right by bringing them in and training them. So, um yeah, I think it's, it's really important, you know, when I think about kind of the standard protocol that I would go through, um I definitely would have an assessment up front for the, the school body or the organization that allows everybody to kind of have input into the skills that we're looking for. 00:26:22 Or even more importantly, the skills our school doesn't have. So I don't like the deficit model, but I think it's really important as we're looking for somebody new to bring in that we're not just getting more of the same. So having a AAA systematic look at what our, our organization or our team currently doesn't have. Um You administer the assessment, you assemble the team, um You train the team, conduct the interview which again, very deliberate about what questions we're asking. Uh If we're, if we're not looking for a classroom manager, I don't know why we wouldn't. That's a bad example probably. But you know, take whatever skill it is. If we're not looking for that, then don't ask questions about it because in essence, our, our schools got it covered like we're, we're good there. Um And then you have to have a moderated deliberation with somebody who is not invested in the outcome. I really, really believe this like to have a facilitator or moderator so that when all the ideas are coming out, somebody can go. 00:27:27 That sounds a lot like the halo bias. You know, our um you know, we're not gonna discuss that. That's actually not a legal question. You know, somebody who can in it can, can facilitate that interview. And typically it, it does fall on a school leader because the, you know, we're trying to move so fast, so fast in our hiring. And I believe that is because we are in a scarcity mindset that we're, we're gonna move fast and pick somebody because if we don't, somebody else is gonna get them. I challenge the narrative on that slow down. You will find the right person. Yeah. What one of the things I was going to ask you about, I think you've probably covered it but I wanted to give you space for it is like the challenges that that happen in this work is there one challenge that you're thinking maybe AAA leader who's listening would be facing either that you've addressed and you're like, this is the one to focus on and this is how you get around it or something you haven't brought up yet. You're like you should be aware of this. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's always tension around internal, external candidates and I think if you do not have a good succession plan in place in your organization. 00:28:33 I really challenge leaders to think about that and, and that doesn't mean that we can't go externally. But I think every interview um especially for school leadership positions should have a balance of an internal and an external. However, you have to control the process to make it fair for internals and externals. I would say especially internals I've seen over and over where um people will bring in extra information about the internal candidates, you know, as an internal candidate, they're gonna know a lot more about you. So how do you control for those biases that we talked about? Um, you know, this is where you'll get like the, uh I think it's called the horns bias, you know, like, like bad person horns. Um in that, you know, one person had a bad experience with this person and they now have moved that bias to a whole new level of they're gonna be a horrible principal or a horrible school leader. Well, I, I don't think, you know, that actually, you know, let the person talk about their experiences and leave about all, leave out all the other things. 00:29:38 It's almost like in a jury where um you have to take into consideration everything that was said. Um And there's some evidence, it's like, no, that you cannot consider that. I think it needs to be a lot more like that. Um But it's very difficult, it's very difficult. I I fully acknowledge that in the front end. Oh, that's such good advice. I, I had never even thought about that balance and all the considerations that go into that. So, thank you. I'm I'm really glad I asked that. Thank you for that answer. And, and I think as we kind of wrap up our conversation, there's a lot that leaders have to consider and it seems like a lot more set up than we typically do out of that scarcity mindset, the rush, all that stuff. So if there's one thing that a leader listening can kind of come away with and say, like I'm gonna at least start here. What would that one thing be that you would recommend to start with? Well, I would say do your pre work and be intentional about uh everything leading up to that interview. I know that a lot of districts or a lot of organizations maybe won't have um the resources to do it to the nth degree that I'm talking about. 00:30:45 Um But I would also challenge that. It's, it's not that expensive to, to make a, a right choice you think about the cost of attrition um or turnover that happens in districts. Um not only uh the, the physical dollars of it, but um the mental anguish and the starting over and the resets that happened, we don't have, we, we, we cannot do that anymore. We, we have to stop treating it like the, the the weekend picnic where we bring the chat and we throw everything away at the end of the picnic. Um We, we have to consider this more like a gramma's fine. China is that when we are having somebody come in, we want to treat them well, we want to take care of them, we want to promote them so that we can build them up and take care of this fine China instead of throwing it in the garbage and then starting over again. Um so be intentional with how you set up the interview, how you set up the interview team, how you train the interview team, um the skills that you're looking for the whole process should uh feel very, very intentional and not haphazard. 00:31:49 That is such a beautiful point. And I think it connects to this idea of like a lot of times people will say we're hiring for racial diversity or, you know, whatever it is and these are great goals. But if you don't actually treat the process like the fine China, if you don't build the culture where someone coming in is going to merge well with the team and to feel like they belong and are valued, then that is, it's going to be a rotating door because you can't bring someone into a hostile culture and like be like, oh, well, we quickly hired like no problem. I think that is something throughout hiring that I constantly see struggles with and it's like exactly what you're saying is the antidote, right? Like, well, and, and think about it in four different coins and this is probably leads into like, we could have a whole another show on this. But we really were just talking about one aspect of, of organizational success here is, is this hiring and search process once they're there, we gotta build up the whole organization around them, you know, and that means the best speakers, the best, um you know, the best trainers and don't be afraid to reach out for resources externally. 00:32:58 I I see this mistake over and over is that we'll do it, we'll do it ourselves, we'll do it ourselves because it in some ways, it feels easier. But there are people that spend their lives, work in these particular areas, you should lean on them. The third part is, is personal development. How do we make sure that our, our school leaders, our teachers, everybody is also in the space of personal development. So outside of pedagogy, outside of these other areas, are they balanced? Are they coming to school healthy? And then finally, a really good strategic planning process that is not just a poster on the wall that is actually linked to actions that is linked to outcomes. Because all four of those areas actually linked together in a in organizational success. We have to take care of the macros, the micros and the future and the now, wow, that's, that could be a whole other, but that is a great framework and, and it actually leads to my next two questions. They're related to those first two, I think you shared. So the one about personal development, this is neces, not necessarily academic, personal development, but I'm curious to know from each guest. 00:34:01 I always ask what's something you've been learning about lately? And this could be anything, what have I been learning about lately? Um I have been trying to be a better cook and griller. Um Up until this point in my life, I have not been a great cook and I, I feel like I've really increased the pitch of my um my productivity in the last uh 34 months with my grilling by smoking. Um I did some, some jambalaya last night that I thought was actually really good. So I feel like I'm trying to learn more in that area. Oh, that's very impressive. Excellent. And then the last thing I want to ask is you recommended people reach out and there are people who do this stuff, right. So, and I know that's very tied to another role that you have in addition, in addition to what we've been talking about today. So where can listeners learn about what you do? Do you want to share a little bit about that recommendations for how to connect with you, that kind of thing? Sure. So I have a day job. Um uh my W-2, as I said earlier is uh executive director, but I also have a whole uh side thing that I'm really passionate about. 00:35:10 Um it's called School Pro and you can find us on internet www dot school Pro K twelve.com. And I want you to think about this as an educational concierge company. Um and we work with people across the nation. Um the best of the best we do. Uh kind of what I talked about earlier, just a like a curating and a screening process to make sure that um the right people are matched to the right organizations. So there's no haphazard um attachment of you have to have this person, you have to have this person. It is more of tell me about your local context to make sure that the right person can come in. So we provide um keynote speakers, professional developers, executive coaches, skilled mentorship, um all those areas of the, the four quadrants that I talked about. Um strategic planning. Um Again, our job is to make sure that, that you're successful. Um So that's what we do. We, we match the right people to the right schools in the right districts. And uh it has been an amazing experience to be honest, uh to be able to offer these, these services to schools who come knocking. 00:36:14 Amazing. And we'll link to all of that stuff in the show notes in the blog post for this episode, Doctor Sanson. Thank you so much for being on today. It was a pleasure. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me Lindsay and uh enjoy and stay pks positive, kind and supportive. If you like this episode, I bet you'll be just as jazz as I am about my coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane, Sapir and Jamila Dugan, talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book Street data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period. I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action. If you're smiling to yourself as you listen right now, grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm. How I can help you make this big dream a reality? I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm. Call at Lindsay with lions.com/contact. Until next time, leaders think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach better podcast network. 00:37:20 Better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better.com/podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where I share sample student and shared leadership structures:
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AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
August 2024
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