Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:
In this podcast episode, Charles Williams dives into a comprehensive discussion on rethinking education. We explore the importance of equitable assessments in classrooms and critique the traditional approach to grading and feedback. Charles emphasizes the significance of providing feedback that doesn't contribute to the overall grade, promoting a safe learning environment free from the fear of failure.
Charles Williams has served as an educator for nearly 20 years as a teacher, an assistant principal, and a principal for students in grades K-12. He also serves as an equity advocate with the Equity Offices of the City of Chicago and the Chicago Public Schools. In this episode we explore the power of equitable assessments, honest feedback, and challenging traditional grading systems. And we keep it “sugar free.” The Big Dream Open-mindedness (not having sugar-coated conversations) and understanding the purpose of grading and assessments and feedback. Specifically, grading is equitable and feedback is continuous, authentic, and meaningful. Alignment to the 4 Stages: Mindset, Pedagogy, Assessment, and Content Charles emphasizes the need for an open-mindedness in the teaching community, a shift away from averaging grades, and a focus on ungraded formative assessments. He offers this metaphor: “I think about sports. When I go out and I practice, there's no points for that. I'm not getting any stats right…For football, for example…That happens Friday night. You know, nothing else counts. The tackles I had during practice, the yardage that I ran, the touchdowns that I threw. None of that matters Monday through Thursday. Until Friday night, and those lights come on. Now it counts. So why do we struggle so much with it when it comes to academics? It's that same concept. When it's game time, now it counts.” The content, he believes, should be driven by the students' learning journey, not by an overall grade. Each student can have, in essence, their own IEP. He explains, “there's no one way…but I think it's stepping back and looking at: What do my students need and what is a practical way for me to develop or introduce that, to provide that? You know it's not the convenient thing, right, but it's also on the other end…not just saying..I'm gonna create a lesson for every single student. That's not feasible. But falling in that middle is what do they need and what can I actually provide? And in recognizing that, sometimes I gotta take my hands off and let them go, which, again, as I said earlier, I think is a scary thing for a lot of educators.” Mindset Shifts Required We can question the convenience of traditional grading systems, see beyond the transactional experience of grades, and help students embrace a learning journey that is not motivated by fear of failure. Action Steps What could it look like to start building the foundation for a shift to equitable grading in your school or district? Step 1: Start by reading Grading for Equity, a book that provides a comprehensive understanding of equitable grading systems. Charles says it’s crucial to read it in its entirety to grasp the complete concept and its implementation. Step 2: After gaining insight from the book, initiate conversations within your teaching community about these concepts. Understand the potential obstacles and discuss how to overcome them. Step 3: Test out these concepts in an elective class or subject. Learn from the implementation, make necessary adjustments, and then scale it up to core subjects. Challenges? Challenge: The non-zero policy. Response: ask: Is it actually equitable? Are we setting up students with unrealistic expectations? Charles explains, “You're receiving half credit for doing nothing…and…learning how to game that system, because that's essentially what we're teaching students: How do I game the system so I can do as little as possible and get a grade? Because, again, we're still in this transactional experience…Instead of focusing on that mindset shift of ‘Why am I in school?’ and shifting that over to the process of learning as opposed to that transactional experience.” Challenge: Stopping short of the depth of the concept (e.g., thinking equitable grading will help Black and Brown students at the expense of white students). Response: “That's not the whole concept…It's about understanding that sometimes students don't have resources or the supports at home that other students have…but again…If we're not averaging it, it doesn't matter, because all that homework should do is provide an opportunity to learn and to practice a skill.” One Step to Get Started Familiarize yourself with the concept of equitable grading systems. Reading Grading for Equity is a great way to start. As often as you can, step back and ask; “Why are we doing this? Does it make sense? Is is it what's best for students?” Stay Connected You can find Charles on his website and on Twitter @_cwconsulting. I also recommend his podcast, The Counter Narrative Podcast. To help you implement some of the ideas Charles shared, I’m sharing my Diagnosing Adaptive Challenges Mini Workbook with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 137 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT Today on the show, I get to talk with Charles Williams who has served as an educator for nearly 20 years as a teacher and assistant principal and a principal for students in grades K through 12. He also serves as an equity advocate with the equity offices of the city of Chicago and the Chicago public schools as a reflection of his dedication to doing this important work. Charles also hosts the counter narrative podcast which is Awesome and cohos an edgy show called inside the principal's office through his consulting company. He is a best selling author and a highly sought after workshop facilitator and keynote speaker. Let us get to my conversation with Charles Williams. I'm educational justice coach, Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings if you're a principal assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nering out about co-creator curriculum of students. 00:01:08 I made this show for you. Here we go. Charles Williams. Welcome to the Time for Teacher shift podcast. Hey Lindsay, how are you? Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you for being here. I am excited for our conversation today and I want to start with a question, what should people keep in mind as we jump into the conversation? Is there anything in particular they should be aware of or be thinking of? Um, so I will say this and, and I think it's just been something that I've been mentioning more and more, uh, is that I, I don't want to sugar coat things. Um, I'm gonna have a very honest conversation with you. Uh, it's, it's how I approach most of my topics and conversations now. Uh, in fact, I have been dabbling with the idea of going like this sugar free talk and it's just like, you know what, we're just gonna be honest and it's truthful and I, you know, we do that a lot in education, right? We tiptoe around trying to make sure that people it's agreeable and sometimes it doesn't have to be like this is just the reality of it. So, um, yeah, and during this conversation, I'm just gonna be as straightforward and honest and truthful as I possibly can, which might bother some people. 00:02:17 And, um, I would say that I'm open to having a conversation afterwards if you are, if you are open to that, I love sugar free. This is a beautiful idea, not in my snacks but in the conversation conversations. This is beautiful. And so I think this will be a great next question then to segue to which is I love talking about freedom dreaming. And Doctor Bettina love talks about this in a really beautiful way. She talks about dreams grounded in the critique of injustice which when we're talking about that, like we can't have the sugar, right? Like we cannot have sugar coat. So what is in that context, the big dream that you hold for curriculum instruction, kind of this leadership idea? So, you know, as I was thinking about this question, II, I was a little all over, right? Because there, there are a lot of areas where we, we could have this conversation. Uh but the one that struck me. So apparently the one that I'm meant to have a conversation around right now is around um equitable assessments. Um It, it's been a lot of the topics of conversation I've had as I've moved into a new building. In fact, my wife has gone back to school uh to, to continue her educational degrees and she's in an assessment class and I'm already like, I, I need to speak to your professor and she's like, babe, please don't like I'm trying to, I'm trying to pass do, do it afterwards. 00:03:34 Um So yeah, I think it's in that area of, of assessments, the role of assessments and feedback and grading and all of that. Oh, I love that. So when you think of what a dream situation of like, this is the, the team you get to work with and, and kind of help them build out the assessments that would be equitable and have this kind of system that is, has equity at the center of everything that you do with regard to assessments. What kind of things are we looking at or, or what kind of things are we like students experiencing or how, how does that feel for teachers? So, you know, I think one of the biggest things that I would look for in the team is just this idea of an open mindedness, right? Um And understanding the purpose of grading and assessments and feedback. I, I think, you know, when we were in school grading was something that was done, you know, kind of formulaic, right? Like every Monday we got our spelling words and on Friday, we took the test, right? Um And then a lot of times even the feedback, it was a, it was a letter grade or a percentage and nothing more which didn't help me learn or grow as a learner. 00:04:42 It was just like, ok, I mean, I was like, I got an a so ok, I guess I did ok. But if, you know, if, if I was to receive ac or ad or something like, I, I don't know what I did wrong. Um, and, and then even the, the, I guess within that process it's the, the time frames. I mean, how often did you turn something in, like a, like an essay or a paper? And, you know, you got, you got it back two weeks later, right? Like, what am I supposed to do with it now? Because we're, we're so deep into the next unit of study. So I think the role of assessment is critical and then from the student side, I think what would be helpful in that is that I, I'm really being assessed on what I know and not my journey, right? So I was one of those students who just got it right? I could read something and I memorized it, you would say it to me. I mean, like I, I held on to it long enough to regurgitate it because in reality, that's what we're doing for assessments, right? So they weren't even authentic assessments, which is a whole another piece to this. So I could just regurgitate it, right? Get my a and keep it moving. But what about those students who took some extra time? 00:05:46 Right. And so when we talk about like averaging grades now, you're punishing me because I didn't get it as quickly. But at the end of the unit, at the end of the course, whatever it may be at that point of that somewhat of assessment. I have the same exact, you know, base of knowledge, right. The same amount of knowledge as the person sitting next to me. But because it took me a while longer. Right. And so it takes that away. I mean, I don't know how many times I've had conversations with students where they're just like, well, what is this worth? How many points is this worth? Right. And so I don't see learning as a process, right? This idea of like I'm in it to actually learn, I'm in it to receive a grade. Is that transactional experience? So at the end of the school year, I mean, and then think about this when grades are in, right? And I'm at a high school and I used to be at an elementary but still same thing when those final grades are in 23 weeks before the end of the g uh the the year because you gotta figure out graduation and all of that, right? And the mind is well learning is done because I'm no longer working towards a grade. And that's one of those tho those unfortunate symptoms of our, our current grading process. 00:06:51 But if I was in it to learn and you know what I would still be, hey, where are we going with this learning journey? How I, I still didn't get to share with you what I've learned, right? It, it's that very extrinsic process. So I know that was a lot. But those are multiple pieces that kind of encompass this vision around what it should be. Yeah, I'm so glad that you, you gave it a lot because that, that all of those pieces are so relevant. Right? And I, I think about that idea of no averages. We used to try to like, calculate was, I don't remember the name of it but like the most of your grade, like it was like a weighted average, I guess, right? So like most of your grade is at the end. So like, because it was really hard for students to let go of the idea that I need to do something just for the learning versus for the grade. And so that was like a whole culture shift. Whereas like, ideally as teachers who want to come in and be like, OK, we're just gonna count that last grade. But then t the students as well as parents and caretakers have to let go of the idea that like, well what this, so then this thing we're doing first quarter doesn't actually, you know, count for anything. 00:07:53 It's like, no, no, it counts for the learning, right? Like, and so I, I love this idea of the big culture shift. That kind of goes with that idea of equitable assessment of. We are doing this because we're learning, we're doing this for the journey. I think about how school I was kind of that a student because I was able to pick up things pretty quickly. But I didn't, actually, that didn't serve me because when I got to a point where I didn't pick something up quickly, I kind of struggled with the learning process because I wasn't taught the learning process. We didn't value the learning. Right. So, there's, there's so much in what he said that resonates with me and, and I'm thinking too that it goes with the broader culture of cul uh like curriculum and instruction. And so I'm thinking of the components I usually talk about. So there's the mindset piece, right? Of like, of everyone, of students, of families of teachers, there's the pedagogy, like how do I interact with my students on a day to day basis? There's the assessment piece and then there's the, what are we literally learning about like, what's the content? And so I'm wondering like, how you see these pieces kind of connecting to assessment and equitable assessment and that whole kind of culture that, that you're kind of describing here? 00:09:03 Yeah. So, I mean, I I think going kind of through some of those right there is that mindset, right? Um It's the idea that you're, you're not given something for every little piece, right? Uh And, and you're right, I think you mentioned something about the, the, the learning struggle, which is absolutely necessary. It is a natural part of learning, but because we punish it, right? And I, I mean, think about that like we punish a natural part of the process that we're supposed to be doing. And so because we punish it how many students who go through that pretend like as if they're not, right. So either a I'm not going to tell you that I'm struggling and therefore I'm not going to actually understand it or I'm going to engage in other types of behaviors. So that way you don't see that I'm struggling and then you have a whole another set of issues, right? Because the students who are acting out or doing other things simply because they're struggling, but we're punishing the struggling process, right? And so it, it definitely is a mindset shift about what is learning supposed to be, what is that process? What are we looking at? Um, and, and really shifting that focus into the end. 00:10:05 And I know a lot of times as you mentioned, um, you know, grades are necessary, right? I can't, it's hard. So one of the things that I've recommended is this idea that you could still put grades in a grade book, but with a zero weight, right? And then it allows people to see, ok, well, how did I do? Like, I'm getting some type of that? Right. There's that feedback component, um which is necessary because, right, when we're thinking about this whole thing, like, it's not a matter of we're doing work, doing work, doing work, but you're never getting feedback until the end feedback is an absolutely necessary part of the process. Right. So in those formative assessments, you're providing that feedback, right? Maybe you are throwing it in a great book and, and that even becomes part of the conversation with, with the student and the parents. Let's say you get to the summit of assessment and a child does horribly, right? They, they haven't mastered anything where you could kind of go back and say, well, look right on all the formative assessments, all the practice runs up to this point. Your child hasn't done anything right. They haven't done or I've given them the feedback and they have it there, there, it tells that story, but that in itself isn't part of that overall grade, right? 00:11:10 Um, and it starts to, I mean, we have that mindset around other things, right. I think about sports when I go out and I practice, I, there's no points for that there. I, I'm not getting any stats, right? Like that, that's not contributing to that happens, right? For football, for example. Right. Since we're in the middle of football season right now, uh, that happens Friday night, you know, nothing else counts. The, the tackles I had during practice, the yardage that I ran the touchdowns that I threw. None of that matters. Monday through Thursday until Friday night and those lights come on now it counts. So why do we struggle so much with it when it comes to academics? Right. It's that same concept when it's game time now it counts. Um, so I, I think, you know, looking at even, I, I guess curriculum wise, one of the arguments and pushbacks that I've had was well, teachers don't know how to build assessments. Teachers don't know really how to create assessments that assess them in all of those things. And so I think on that journey, if we're looking at it kind of starting off and ideally, right, use the the the unit assessments that are being provided to you, use the things that are already created. 00:12:20 But as you get more comfortable, as you, as you become more adept at doing this, then you can create those real authentic assessments. Because at the end of this, again, it's not even just about that paper pencil assessment, right? God forbid, it's multiple choice assessments, right? It's how do I turn this into an a meaningful learning experience where you can demonstrate to me that you understand the content, right, that you can understand the concepts and that might look different from student to student. But I think there's a word for that we call it differentiation or something like that. Is it being facetious like that is where all of those things should happen? And is it a struggle? Is it a challenge? Is it, is it a load to carry for uh you know, an educator? Absolutely. But if it means that your students are actually going to learn the content, then isn't it worth it or are we? And this is where we come into that sugar free? Right? Or are we doing things that are, that are convenient for us at the expense of our students? Right. Yeah, I can, if we're doing this whole unit, I can say, OK, create right here. 00:13:22 Four or five or six different options or maybe you have something else, right? That is a lot for me to figure out these different rubrics that I have to create. But if it allows students to truly demonstrate their understanding, it's it, it's better for them or I can say, here's the automatic generated multiple choice, right? A few open ended responses. Everybody take this because it's easier for me. And now with, you know, A I or these programs, I don't even have to grade it. I'll let it grade it. Right. And boom, I'm moving into the next thing. Yeah, that's really easy and convenient. But is it what's best for our students? And I think that's that question that we always have to ask ourselves, is, is it what's best for our students? And in kind of thinking, right? I already know there, there, there's this push back. Well, you know, this, this process isn't what's right this and so if, if I can, right? And II, I know I'm kind of all over the place right now. I was having this conversation in my building where they adopted the zero, the zero grading policy, right? The nonzero grading and I get it. And I said, I, you know, we don't want students to be punished. I don't. But the problem is, is that when you, when you take pieces, right? 00:14:29 You, you never fully get there. And so one of my pushbacks right now is that well, if students don't do the work or they do minimal work, they're getting half the credit. But at the end of the day when we're still averaging right now, what you're doing is you're setting students up for failure, right? If you're going to go down that pathway, there's not, the zero doesn't even matter because it's just a piece of feedback and you're not averaging it. So zeros aren't necessarily this bad thing. Zeros are an issue when you're averaging grades, which hopefully you shouldn't be averaging grades. Right. So that, that's a non, you know, conversation. But I mean, I don't know, there, there's, there's a lot of pieces there. Yeah. And I, that's such a great point. I never could figure out exactly what my issue was with the replacing the zeros. I'm like, yeah, like we wanna make sure that they're not punished, but you're absolutely right. That, that's just such a, like a mindset shift that clicks into place for me where it's like the zeroes don't become a problem if we're ultimately not waiting those grades. Right. Like, that's the equity thing. Like when we have to fictionalize the number to represent something that is not accurate, we have a problem with the system we need to change. 00:15:37 Right. Right. Right. And we, and we keep trying to tweak the system, right, in order to, so it's like, instead of just like, can we just make sure that we, even if we have to replace it completely to fit our needs? Right. Like you're right. So no matter those small tweaks, if at the end, it's resulting in the same thing with, like you said, is gamifying, right? Oo, of what really occurred, it doesn't nobody any good. And I saw that this past year, so many students who were passing, right? Who under normal circumstances wouldn't have passed. My, my pushback was well, if I didn't do any of the work, right? When it came to that summative, there's no way I would be able to do well. And it's not even the mindset of a ha, you know, there's the, I got you, I'm gonna punish you there. It's not about punishment. It's about, I'm not prepared. I'm not ready to do well on the summative and vice versa. Right? I had students and this is just an example. I had students in a, a, um, it was a computer, it program and I had a student who was like, not going to class, not doing anything when he was in class. 00:16:44 I said, come on, do me a favor. Just sit down and do, do one of the modules, demonstrate to me that you can because I think once you get going, it'll be a lot easier. So this student, right? Because he wanted to prove to me how wrong I was, didn't just do a module, he went to the very, very end of the entire uh unit, took the certificate, which is that accumulation of everything knocked out the certificate. And then he looked at me and was like, now what? And I was like, well, right. But in that, in that process, right, it it then challenges us because all of those little things before are not necessary for that student. They are necessary for some students to gain the understanding and the knowledge that they need in order to pass that certificate. But for this student, he had already acquired that somewhere somehow I have no clue but he had that information. So in his, I'm not going to class, I'm gonna sit in here and do nothing wasn't necessarily in an act of uh I guess negligence or, or pushback disrespect, whatever it may be. 00:17:47 He was trying to communicate in his own way. This isn't necessary that's not relevant to me. And then it pushes us as educators to think about where can we go with it? I mean, think about how many times that we have maybe have hindered our students potential because we're trying to fit them into that framework. Whereas if we would have started off with an assessment or allowed that, like, oh, wait, you already know that, like, that could have saved me 67 weeks and we could just keep things moving. But again, is it convenient for me at the expense of our students? Yeah. And this, this to me speaks to kind of like that co creation process with students when we think about the curriculum or the pedagogy. Like, yes, some students already know things. So there is no point in teaching them again, right? Or, or even like even another thing I've seen is like, oh, let's value that the student has that, I mean, we should value that the student has that knowledge, but then we turn them into like peer tutors that do our jobs for us instead of pushing them. You know what I mean? Like they become to people like, oh, just teach your peer and it's like, no, why would they come to school for that? They need to be like, learning something that is relevant for them. 00:18:51 And so I, I just think about like, what that looks like in practice and I know we're going on a little deviation here. But I'm wondering like, what is that for you? What is that like, co creation look like or what is that like pedagogy and curriculum? Like, how do teachers make decisions? I guess I'm, I'm thinking in a way that's very personalized, right? And differentiated to your point so that we don't have students who are like, this is totally relevant to me and like, I'm just gonna disengage. So, you know, you're right. I mean, it starts to become very, it's, it's a load, right? When we talk about um like IEPs individualized, you know, learning plans for the students, it it, it almost becomes a process where each student has their own, right? Understanding like this, these are the skills that are needed. Where are you at on that continuum, right? Students who have already mastered it asking like, you know, how can we take them beyond that? Those who haven't mastered it? You know, what am I doing to get you to that point? But it it's creating those spaces of flexibility and um I guess uh autonomy even for the students, like I remember being in high school and there were some courses that I took that were called independent study because it was like Charles, you've already mastered everything that we have to teach you, right? 00:20:05 So here's a space where you can explore and learn and grow and create, you know, a project to share it, right? Which was phenomenal because it was like, all right. So I went into that class and I just explored and it was wide open for me. I mean, there was some facilitation, of course, right? Some boundaries. Um but it, I mean, think about that, but again, there's a lot of, I guess maybe lack of control and that scares people because what is the, what is he gonna learn? What is he gonna do? What is he like? What it, but I, I think for the most part of students are saying, hey, I've mastered it if I'm here, like challenge me in a way, right? I think a lot of the behaviors that we see are challenge me or you're challenging me too much. So we can, we can cater that. I mean, putting students to say, hey, go study something while I work with this other group because I maybe as a teacher, even in this space, I don't have what you need right now. I mean, think about that, that is a scary thing for a teacher to say is that I can no longer guide you on that educational journey, at least within this unit of focus, right? 00:21:16 Because then it's like, well, I'm irrelevant, right? I maybe my job isn't needed anymore. Right? There's like whatever it may be, but it's ok to say that to say, ok, you continue on that journey and I'm gonna help guide these other students. I mean, there, there's no one way, right? There's no cookie cutter fix to any of these things. But I think it's stepping back and looking at what do my students need and what is a practical way for me to uh develop or, or introduce that um to, to, to provide that, you know, it's not the convenient thing, right? But it's also on the other end, it's not just saying, hey, you know what, I'm gonna create a, a lesson for every single student that's not, you know, that that's not feasible. But falling in the middle is what do they need and what can I actually provide? And in recognizing that sometimes I gotta take my hands off and let them go. Which again, as I said earlier I think is a scary thing for a lot of educators. Yeah. And it goes to the mindset shift again, I think of like we as educators are more supporting the process of learning and the journey of learning versus the content specifically. 00:22:20 I think we get very in our heads as teachers, especially high school teachers. That's my background and, and it's like, oh, we know our content and we have to like regurgitate that content to the student, you know, and it's like we don't actually need to be content experts. I don't think in any grade in any subject necessarily, we need to have a decent background, but we're not gonna know everything about every thing. And if we could just take that and be like, oh, all right, it's OK to be like, I don't know, but I know the process of learning and I know my pedagogy and I know how to equitably assess, right. I'm gonna help you along that journey and you can kind of go into within this I always think about like a content umbrella of like the unit we're teaching or whatever. And then you can like subspecialized in this like aspect of it that I don't actually know what on about. But you go run with that and then come back and you tell me the project and how you want to put it together and all this stuff and like that. What's beautiful about that is there's still those touch points with the teacher coaching along the way of like, ok, I got stuck. How do I get unstuck? Ok, you need like a five minute conference? Cool. Let's do that. And I think that just to me solidifies the importance of the teacher role. When you're saying, I, I've heard that so many times teachers feel irrelevant when students are going and running. 00:23:25 It's like, well, if I see myself as a coach, right? And we, we were talking about sports already, like, ii, I have a sports background as well. So I'm always thinking about like, well, coach isn't like on the field with them, right? Like they're coming back, they're like calling some plays and they're letting people run with that. And I think if we have that mindset, it's a lot easier to be like, oh, ok, so I'm letting go because I should be letting go. That's part of it. Absolutely. And, and I mean, think about the, the liberation of that, right? As a teacher, like, I think we, we hold so much and we carry so much, right? That was that English teacher forever, right? And you, you hold so much like I'm responsible but like you said, it's very liberating to say, oh OK, like now my job is a facilitator, right? And I, and I think a lot of times we do that really well in the admin level uh or some of us. So I did that with my staff. You know, we, we ran these series of meetings and sessions and they're like, well, thank you for doing this. And I was like, I didn't do anything. I created a space. We had these goals and objectives and then I facilitated your journey. I had no idea what this was going to look like. 00:24:28 In the end, we had ideas of where we, but I didn't know the route you're gonna take. I didn't know what you were going to produce, right? I facilitated the journey and then I think that's where, as you mentioned, as educators that we have to get to, right? These are the content. These are the skills that you need to do. Now. Let's go. Right. And how can I help you get there? Yeah, absolutely. I I'm wondering if there has been, I know you've kind of mentioned a few challenges along the way of like kind of like, right? Like in doing this work, is there any challenge that sticks out to you that you've either you're in the middle of and you're kind of working through or that you worked through and you would recommend for someone listening who's like, yeah, I wanna do this thing, but I'm facing this challenge or I am anticipating this challenge, like, how would I possibly work through it? So I imagine there's a lot of challenges that come up there are, there are, I mean, the, the nonzero was like, probably my biggest one. especially because it was like, well, it's equitable, right? And I think that's the other idea is that what is equitable rating mean? And I think people as a school, as a district, as, you know, we need to determine what that means because equity is a word that is thrown around a lot in education and it feels like, well, if I say it's equitable, then it means it's a good thing, you know, but, but is it equitable? 00:25:43 Right? Or are you hurting students? Are you setting them up with unrealistic expectations? And in this case, right, with the nonzero policy, that's what I felt and that's what I kept saying. Um And I know that there was some, you know, disagreements, um some, some lively conversations uh around that, but that is where I stood. I said, you know, this is an unrealistic expectation, but essentially, right, you're receiving half credit for doing nothing, right? And then, you know, learning how to gain that system because that's essentially what we're teaching students, how do I gain the system so I can do as little as possible and get a grade? Because again, we're still in this transactional experience, right? Instead of focusing on that mindset shift of why am I in school and, and shifting that over to the process of learning as opposed to that transactional experience. I think, you know, one of the other things is that and I'll just be honest, I, I was in a board meeting at my former company and somebody handed me uh an article and it was that classic, like, you know, you've read the stories where you're the only minority in the room and people kind of look at you. 00:26:49 Um, and it was this article called Race Based Greeting and they handed it to me and they're like, what do you think about this? And I was like, well, can I read it first? Um, and what it was referencing was equitable grading systems. But what they were arguing was that equitable grading systems would benefit black and brown students at the expense of white students. And I was like, well, first of all, like, they, they've got the concept completely wrong and, you know, we had this whole conversation around it that, you know, because it was talking in there around like, for example, policies around homework. Well, why do students, you know, from minority backgrounds? Like, you know, they don't need to do homework, but they're gonna get full credit for it. Well, that's, that's not the whole concept. Right. It's not just giving full credit for something that wasn't done. It's about understanding that sometimes students don't have resources or the supports at home that other students have. Right. So, yeah, but again, it goes back to that averaging, if we're not averaging it, it doesn't matter because all that homework should do is provide an opportunity to, to, to learn and to practice a skill. 00:27:58 That's all it should have done, right? And, and so again, for me, it was just coming back to and I think that big push is do we stop averaging grades? Can we start focusing on that, that somewhat of assessment? Right. Even if it, that's the first step, just focus on that somewhat of assessment, not even talking about standards based grading, right? That that's the next part of that like, but can we just focus on the end? What did you learn? Right. I don't know how many times you know, this idea around, you know, these equitable and I say it with quotes. I know you can't see me um you know, like the late policies then, right? Well, I could turn it in whenever. Well, what are you saying that? Right, because if I can turn it in past the assessment, is it really part of the learning journey or is it just the task that I'm doing to again receive credit? Thus, that transactional experience and then teachers are receiving a, a, um, a mountain of, of papers and assignments and things at the end of a grading period and they're trying to hurry and put it all in. But the whole point of those assessments were right, because they are formative assessments was feedback. 00:29:04 But I'm not giving you any feedback because it's the last day of the grading period. Like it's when we step back and we look at that, it's like somebody has to say this is not right. Right. And there's a very easy way to fix it. And I think that if we, if we slowed down a little bit and maybe took that step back and looked at these pieces and then looked at the real results of those pieces because it sounds great when you say it like a student shouldn't be pun punished for turning things in late. That sounds right. But let's look at what that means. Right. Students shouldn't receive zeros, it sounds fine. Right? Because I used to be that person. I used to be that proponents like no, no zeros, but let's step back and look at what it really means. And I think that we are so often in education so quick to grab on to the next newest thing. Like we don't pause and say what does it mean? Right. And is there something that could truly address this? But the thing that does address it means a lot of that convenience that we've talked about has to go out the window. Right? And so I, I could as I, I'm assuming that there are people like, no, I, I don't want to adopt this because of what it means for me. 00:30:09 Hi, it's Lindsay. Just popping in here to talk about today's episode, Freebie. So, in the spirit of leading change and in alignment with Charles's Sugar free conversation approach, I think this resource will complement this conversation nicely. It is my diagnosing adaptive challenges workbook today. It is one of my most popular resources and I want you to have it head to Lindsay beth lions dot com slash blog slash 137 to get yours back to the. So, yeah, absolutely. Definitely a culture shift and something to talk through with your, your staff if you're a listener thinking about doing this. But, but so worth it, right? Like as we've talked about this, ba basically like real listen to the episode, share with your staff, I think because there has been like, I think so many moments, Charles where you kind of like pulled back a curtain on this. I'm just like, right? Like this may look just like what you just said. This may make like initial like, oh OK, interesting. But when we pull it back and we say, hey, it just, there's no better way that I've seen so far than to do what you're describing, which is just do the summative and I think two things with that one is to have a summative that makes, that is co created with a student that makes a student interested in it. 00:31:14 Because I think some of the things that we try to do, it's like threaten almost like you will get a zero if you don't do this work as kind of like a coercive mechanism versus you're working toward this thing that you actually really wanna do. You co created what the summit is gonna be like, you're invested, you're just gonna do it because you're interested in the learning journey versus like this is a stupid assignment and I don't want to do it. Right. I've been there as a student and I'm just like, why, you know, and I think there's that transactional idea or that coercive idea of using grades in that way has just been so much a part of education and what we're trained to do in teacher school. And it's so problematic that there's a lot of unlearning I think to do before that. Um A and, and also the homework thing for me, like, I eventually stopped giving homework and I just was like, if I can't teach you it and this is an unpopular opinion. But I was like, if you, if I can't teach you it in my class time that I have you. Like, we're not that I'm, I'm failing you, right? Like I'm just like, this is the time we have together in addition to not being able to. 00:32:19 Right. I had a lot of students who worked, like, 30 hours a week or something, you know, like, they don't have time to do homework and I, and, and not only that, but, like, even the students who don't like, you're a kid, you should have time to play and just not have to always be working. So, like that 10 minutes you do have, go outdoors or something, right? Like be a human. Um, and I think there's, there's so much value in that piece. It's a little bit of another episode topic. But I'm thinking for a listener who's like, all right, this is a big change, but I, I am invested in the idea. Now, what do I do as like a first step, like a momentum builder perhaps? Or an introduction to my staff that maybe we're gonna entertain this. What would you say? A good first step would be? Hm. So I, I think there's a few different entry points. Um, you know, there, there's a book out there which I know, you know, there, there are people who like it, people who don't, but it's, it's called Grading For Equity. And in fact, it, one of the chapters in there and I think read it in its entirety. I will put it this way, read it in its entirety because it talks about a lot of these ideas and then it's like, well, here's where we should go with it. 00:33:22 But, you know, if you read it only partially or each chapter and you're like, oh, that's what it said, which is kind of what happened in my building. Like you didn't finish the idea, right? Like, finish the book, right. Have a conversation around it. Um, and then begin looking at what would this look like in our building? Um What, what are the obstacles that we're gonna have to overcome? Right. The mindset shifts or for students? For parents, for staff? Right. Having those conversations flushing out. Don't just like launch into this immediately, begin having those conversations understand the obstacles that you're going to have and then I would even maybe test it out. Right? Is a pilot program and maybe something that isn't so heavy, I guess I, I, and this is no offense to any of my, any of my teachers, but you have those classes that are like core classes that come with heavy credit, right? And then there's the other ones that are like, that's an extra credit, right? Like it's ok. Like what if we tested it out in those spaces where it was like, hey, you know, it, it didn't work, we gotta fix this, right. Um And it doesn't have that much damage. 00:34:26 I, I would also say is to and I wish I could think of one right now off the top of my head, there are, there are plenty of schools and districts doing this work. So what I'm talking about isn't like this weird thing that I dreamt about last night, like this is this work is happening. So instead of you trying to recreate the wheel and starting from scratch and trying to figure out like go visit those schools or have conversations with the individuals in those schools, talk about their journey, figure out what it was that they did and think again, how might this look in my own space? How might this look in my own building? Because it's not about just taking what's another school is doing and doing it right? Because it may not, may not necessarily work but figuring out those components, um a a and putting them in your, within your own school. I think it's just, I think the biggest part of this is that mindset shift it. I mean, we, we've been so long with this transactional experience and I will say even this, right? A lot of people are like, well, we're preparing students for college and I don't know about you Lindsay, but how many college courses like it wasn't a, it was a final, that was your grade but maybe I didn't go. 00:35:35 I had, I remember a class where what they did was they, there was a powerpoint which was shared online every class, they read the powerpoint, which I was like, I know how to read. I don't need you to read a powerpoint to me. So I stopped going to class and I would show up, I showed up for the midterm and ace the midterm because the midterm was about right. But that, that scares people because guess what, I then took control of my learning in that process and they're like, well, kids have to be in the building. They can't just skip out like it starts to open up these other conversations around, not just grading them but the format and functionality of school. And again, like our schools have been structured in a way for centuries because of like aggregor in societies. Like maybe it's time that we begin, right? I mean, there was this thing that happened not too long ago, this like pandemic that forced us to look at school in a different way. Like may, maybe there's some lessons that we could learn and adopt and it's not just a convenient place. There's that word again for students to come during the day while their parents are at work. 00:36:40 So that way they're being mo I mean, I'm just saying things right? But like is that what we're doing and trying to make it relevant? Right? Or making it seem like the things that we're doing are relevant because you gotta sit in this seat for X number of minutes and do these like maybe it's just time but that I think will begin going down that process because again, the more you go down this journey, the more you can step back and say, why are we doing this? Right. And does it make sense? And again, that question is, is it what's best for students? Yes. Oh, my gosh. It makes me think of like, the idea of like, you have to suffer because I suffered kind of thing. Like teachers, I feel like do that. Right. Like, oh, that was just the first year. It sucked. It was terrible. So, like, I'm not gonna give you any help. And like, I think also with us as students, it's like, ok students like, yeah, it sucks in a chair for six hours a day and like not move but like that's what school is. So we did it, you have to do it. And it's like if we shadowed a student as adults, that is a transformative experience to sit where a student is sitting and just do the things a student is doing for six whole hours like or whatever the school day is 6.5 hours. 00:37:44 Like people come out of that experience and are like, what are we doing? Like, why would we do this to students? They are not moving, they're not talking, they're like reprimanded for asking to go to the bathroom. Like, you know, all these things about the I love that you talk about the format and functionality of school. Like we are sometimes so distanced even though we're in it, we're teachers or we're in the school system we're still very distant from the student experience school and therefore we make these decisions or we say we had to do it. So you have to do it. And it's like not the best. It's not working. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I just realized how long we've been talking. This has been wonderful. I have two final questions for you. One is for absolute fun. What is something you've been learning about lately? And it does not have to relate to our work. It could be literally anything. Um So I would love to say that I have a big personal life which my wife would like. She's listening right now. She's gonna be like, yeah, he doesn't. Um I, I'm sorry, hun. Um But I think the book that I'm reading right now and that I'm really focused, which I think is phenomenal is by Marcus Buckingham. It's called Love Plus Work. And he has this idea and they're called like figuring out your weird, right? 00:38:49 What is it that drives you fulfills you? And it's not just about work. Uh He talks about it in different aspects of your life but mostly work. Um And it's very interesting when we think about again, just how we approach work, the, the things that we do and why so many, I mean, burnout is a huge topic, right? But why is it so big because we are continuing to do things that don't always make sense. And so but we're just like, well, that, that's, that's how we're supposed to operate. So that's what I'm gonna do and then we step back and like, why is, why is it not working? Right. So, um, so it's, it's a great book. Um, and it, if you buy it, there are these modules and things. I haven't really dove into those yet. Um, but I'm in the last like section of the book and it just, it makes sense. In fact, I, I'm working right now. I'm like, all right, like, I think this could be right. I, I speak at conferences all over the place. Like I have this idea of that or I present this one about the Zen your, your zone of genius and it works so well with identifying and figuring out you're weird. 00:39:54 Like I'm starting to pull in some of those concepts because like, it just, it just makes sense, right? And again, it's that idea, like, as you're reading it, I'm slowing down and I'm like, oh, like, OK. Right. Those are some shifts I can make in my own life to make sure that I'm enjoying work. So a as one example, one of the ideas was, and I, and I just started doing this without understanding before I read his book was like, tweeting out a daily I get to right at work. Like, so we, we're so often and so quick to fuss with this. This happened today and this was horrible. And, but what did you get to do today? Not that you had to, but what did you get to do? And I remember I it was on a special Olympics trip. The kids were like, Miss Willms. Will you come with us? And I, and I went with them. Nobody forced me to go. It wasn't part of my job description. Right? There was no requirement but it was something that I got to do and it was such an enjoyable experience and it was one of those moments that right refuel you so that way you can do the things that you have to do. 00:40:56 So you know, that's a challenge right now for any of those of you listening, especially as you're going through the rest of the school year, just one tweet a day or Instagram or whatever social media you use, right? Myspace? If you still have it, what did you get to do? Right. And then you'll start, you'll realize that you start thinking about work differently and focusing on those things that you enjoy doing and those are your red threads, read the book. It'll make sense. I was like, we're launching into a whole another episode. I was like, really Becket, really Becket. I love it. I love it. And well, so I think people are gonna wanna see your, I get to and follow you and all the things. So where can listeners learn more about you or contact you on the internet. Yeah, so the, the easiest way is via Twitter. Uh So my, my handle there is at underscore CW consulting. Uh I used to fuss about the underscore because somebody has it without the underscore and they don't use it, but you know, I've made it what it is now with the underscore. Um So there is an Instagram account with that. Don't go there expecting much. 00:42:00 There's a Tik Tok account II, I just started claiming the handle in different places, not that I know what to do with all of them. So, Twitter is the best way. Um And you'll also find in that space, a link tree. Uh So you'll have access to all the other things, the podcast, uh the book, um speaking engagements. Uh So all of the other things that I do, you'll find that through that link tree account as well. Awesome. And I have to say the podcast is excellent listeners. You need to go listen to that. And I have now as of now seen Charles in action as a keynote and he is fantastic. So definitely check about it, Charles, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it if you like this episode. I bet you'll be just as jazz as I am about my coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane sapper. And Jamila Dugan. Talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book Street Data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period. I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action. 00:43:02 If you're smiling to yourself as you listen to right now, grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm, how I can help you make this big dream a reality. I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm call at Lindsay, Beth lions dot com slash contact. Until next time leaders think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better podcast network better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better dot com slash podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where I show you how to use post-it planning and digital adaptations for success:
0 Comments
Leave a Reply. |
For transcripts of episodes (and the option to search for terms in transcripts), click here!
Time for Teachership is now a proud member of the...
AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
August 2024
Categories |
RSS Feed