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In this episode, Nadia A. Bennett talks about the pressing need for anti-racist school environments, her dream for curricula that equips students to grapple with social issues head on, and a concrete example of a school in which the leader said racism was too hard to solve. (She insightfully shares how she responded in that last situation.) We go deep into the journey of leading anti-racist work including the challenges along the way and practical strategies for what your anti-racist leadership can look like.
Nadia Bennett is the founder of When Brown Girls Lead™, an education consulting firm that leads the way for schools to become anti-racist learning environments through culturally-relevant leadership development and mentorship. For more than 15 years, Nadia served in education, as teacher, principal and executive director of K-12 schools. In this episode we go deep into the journey towards leading anti-racist work including the challenges along the way and practical strategies for what your anti-racist leadership can look like. The Big Dream Nadia says, "The curriculum that is used in schools would lead students to this truth that the mind is a weapon and reading is one of the best ways to sharpen that weapon." She envisions a curriculum that equips students to grapple head-on with social issues like poverty and racism. Alignment to the 4 Stages: Mindset, Pedagogy, Assessment, and Content Mindset is really important. Nadia says, "We have to embrace unlearning, the lies that we have been told," she emphasizes, adding that anti-racist schools begin with anti-racist adults. “Shift, unlearn, learn the truth, make a decision to move forward in a space of anti-racism, equity, equality,” she says. Mindset Shifts Required Nadia stressed the need for adults to take responsibility for creating anti-racist school environments. "The adults have to do the work because the adults are making the decisions, setting the policies, and creating the systems and structures," Nadia explained. Action Steps In our conversation, Nadia outlined three key steps to confronting racism in schools: Step 1: Look at the data. According to Nadia, the data can reveal disparities in education that often slip beneath the radar. "One of the best things you can do is show them the data.” Step 2: Assess why the disparities exist. "We need to assess why there are so few Black and Brown children in AP and honors," Nadia states, urging educators to take a hard look at the adult actions leading to these student outcomes. Step 3: Adults must take responsibility. Nadia stressed that adults have to have the courage to do this and commit to making changes. Challenges? Nadia described a concrete example of a white administrator saying the racism showing up in his school data was too hard to solve. She explained why this happens, “Let's be honest, it's not going to directly impact him or his children because he identifies as a white male. So he's fine. He can go home at night, he doesn't have to worry about his child being killed, unarmed, just because they're getting gas at a gas station or whatever the scenario is this year. He doesn't have to worry about his child being funneled into the school-to-prison pipeline. He doesn't have to worry about his child being passed along when they should be supported more academically or his child walking into a classroom and people have little expectations for him. That's not his concern. So he gets to lean back.” This is not okay. Nadia says “that's why I often use the word anti-racist…[Kendi says] it's not enough to not be racist, one must be anti-racist. And anti-racism looks like taking actions against racist policies, taking action against racist ideas and expressions, et cetera. So that same man will look at me and say, ‘Well, I don't mistreat black people intentionally, I don't use the N word, I don't do ABC, so that means that I'm not racist.’ No, sir. No sir, that's not enough, and it's really not enough because of the work that you do and what the children you owe these children because you decide to take this job. You wanted to do this work, so you owe them. You give them the education that they deserve.” Later in the episode, Nadia reflects on this moment, sharing, “ I have been learning that this work, even for myself, is to also be done over the long haul. And I have to be patient with individuals that are just starting to engage with the work or have not engaged with the work…Now I can lean back and say ‘You know what? He's just not there. He's just not there yet.’ And what can I do? Maybe through this assistant principal…support him in managing up. So I'm learning to have grace and and in my support of schools and understand that every school leader is in a different place.” One Step to Get Started To start making a difference, Nadia believes that educators should first commit to understanding the problem. "If you are educating children, you have to understand that everybody comes into a space with their own biases and it is your responsibility to not have those biases play out when you're working with young people who are put in front of you to be educated," she said. Stay Connected You can find Nadia on her website, LinkedIn, and Instagram. To help you implement some of the ideas Nadia shared, I’m sharing my Root Cause Analysis Worksheet (which now includes my Data Analysis Worksheet too) with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 135 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT I am so excited for you to hear this conversation today with Nadia Bennett, who is the founder of Wen Brown Girls lead an education consulting firm that leads the way for schools to become anti racist learning environments through culturally relevant leadership development and mentorship. For more than 15 years, Nadia served in education as teacher principal and executive director of K 12 schools. During that time, El A test scores doubled student attendance increased and teacher retention rates spiked after years of successfully turning schools around yielding notable results and creating anti racist school environments. Nadia now leads her team at when Brown Girls lead to make sure all students receive the equitable education they deserve. Get excited for this conversation with Nadia Bennett. Here we go. I'm educational justice coach Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings. 00:01:05 If you're a principal assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nerd out about co creating curriculum with students. I made this show for you. Here we go. Nadia. Welcome to the time for teacher shift podcast. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I am really excited for our conversation today and I just wanted to know if there's anything that you want listeners to know as we kick off the conversation that they should kind of keep in mind as we're chatting today. That's a great question. I would say I would like listeners to know that I am a school turnaround strategist. Uh I work with K to 12 school to develop leaders foster a culture of inclusion, equitable, equitable, achieve achievement, excuse me, and create anti-racism, school environments. Um I do this through professional development, anti-racism training. And the core is I believe that when more Black and Brown educators are given the opportunity to lead students and school communities evolve and we're able to influence the next generation in the, the best way possible. 00:02:11 Oh, that's amazing. And I think actually segues perfectly into my next question, which is about freedom dreaming, right? And like, what, what is that dream? I, I love Doctor Bettina, love how she talks about dreams grounded in the critique of injustice specifically. I think that's such a cool foundation for what, what our dreams are. And so I'm wondering what that big dream is for you in, in schools that dream for me is that the curriculum that is used in schools would lead students to this truth that the mind is a weapon and reading is one of the best ways to sharpen that weapon. And that weapon needs to be sharpened for battles, right? Battles against racism against poverty and all other forms of oppression. If curriculum could somehow help young people leave with that truth and that understanding of their identity and align with that. I think that would be the best curriculum that there is to offer all Children. I love that. And II, I love the emphasis on all Children right too, because I think sometimes people are like, oh, this is just curriculum for certain students or you know, black, a brown student, it's like, no, no, this benefits every student, right? 00:03:23 When we center black and brown leaders, when we center curriculum, that helps people sharpen their minds and combat racism like that helps every person. So I appreciate that grounding. Exactly. And it helps every person in the way of it fosters in a future world of true equity and equality. Right? In that, if we consider that up until probably the last 5 to 10 years, all curriculum has been written from the lens of the white American, right? History is told through the lens of the White American. So black and brown Children have been educated and socialized in an environment where the White American is lifted up and their history is told and it's understood et cetera, which perpetuates white supremacy and black inferiority if we had a curriculum that show the true history of everyone, right? And they saw that the history of black people doesn't start with slavery and it doesn't start with the civil rights movement. 00:04:27 But understand that we have such a rich history as well. Again, it creates and we be beginning to socialize individuals for equity and equality that one's not greater than the other. But we have an understanding that we all have a deep, rich and important history beautifully that thank you so much for elaborating on that. I think there's so many components to doing that well, like there's, there's so many pieces, right? And so I, I usually think of the four like mindset. So like the mindset of teachers, also the mindset of like maybe families or, or students or there's a lot of mindsets. So, right? And then there's also the pedagogy, like how do we interact and, and teach students as well as like structures like assessment, but also the content we teach, like you're talking specifically about history, content and the example you just shared. So I think there's so many of those pieces that people sometimes are juggling or figuring out like how to fit that together. So I'm wondering what advice you would give or what you've kind of seen around. Like what's important? Is there like an order there like specific things to consider. 00:05:30 With some of these, you touched on a really important one mindset. Um So we have to embrace unlearning the lies that we have been told. As I mentioned earlier, this idea of white superiority and black inferiority, we have been socialized, taught, educated, um reinforced through media, et cetera. We see that all the time. It is literally in our subconscious minds, right? And I'm speaking when I say we, I mean, anyone that's born and raised in America, right? You see this is what we are taught, right? So we have to understand that in order for us to reach that next stage, we as the adults have to go through a process of unlearning and that unlearning requires true self reflection, understanding of self, right? It requires individuals. Uh I always say like taking up their mantel and saying, I'm gonna start with me, I'm gonna read the books. I'm gonna listen to the podcast. I'm gonna have the difficult conversations to understand how I have been mis taught and how I need to change things. 00:06:34 And that's for everyone but everybody has to. If you are educating Children, you have to understand that everybody comes into a space with their own biases and it is your responsibility to not have those biases play out when you're working with young people who are put in front of you to be educated and you are like bleeding all over them because you haven't done your work shift, unlearned, learn the truth, make a decision to move forward in a space of anti-racism, equity, equality, et cetera, diversity, inclusion. All the, all the words, right? Make that decision and then do the work. But it, it really does start with an individual mindset. I always say that anti racist schools begin with anti racist adults. The adults have to do the work because of the, excuse me, the adults are making the decisions that the, the adults are setting the policies and creating the systems and structures. If they do their work, then it all that will then shift the systems, it will shift the policies and the shift the decision making. 00:07:42 That is brilliant and it makes me think about like a student voice. Also, my, my background is in student voice and co creating policy with students. And so it actually makes me think of like part of their work is like, how do we like, engage in partnership with students as well? Like, of course, the leaders have to do their work first and then part of that is like, ok, well, now don't think, you know it all and then make sessions and kind of go forward. Right. Right. Exactly. I agree. I agree. You should definitely talk to the students and understand what their perspective is, how they feel about being in your building. Do they feel that they're experiencing, you know, microaggressions? Do they feel that there is some, you know, kind of because, you know, people can feel negative energy and I don't think that we trust Children enough, right? They may not know, they may not have as much life experience um as us, but they still, we're all born with intuition. We're all born with a several, a certain level of insight and we should trust them enough to understand and want to be invested in what their experience is and enough leaders and teachers, school adults that work in schools, it's really everybody don't, they don't put enough time and effort behind understanding student voice and understanding student experience. 00:08:55 Yes, I could not agree more. That is exactly it. I, I think also with this, if someone is listening and like, oh, well, you know, this is, this feels like a big shift for me or this is like, um you know, I have some teachers or some adults or, you know, some even some family members or whoever that are not into this dream or they're, they're not doing the individual work, right? Like what mindset shifts are required to have people kind of like, move together towards this dream and do the inner work that's required that you're describing when. So I'll speak to what mindset shifts are required or what actions because it there's, yeah, so you spoke a lot about the, the mindset. I know already, I'm, I'm wondering, I guess what, what you've seen to be effective when there's kind of like a challenge in place or there's some sort of resistance to like, ok, as a leader, I'm saying, we're gonna go do this, we're gonna do this together as adults. We're gonna, this is the work. 00:09:56 Um, is there something that is kind of like, clicked in people's minds when they can think about something a little bit differently? Um And then of course, I'm, I'm totally excited about the active steps too. Um With this thing is this answers your question and it's actually one of the first actionable things that people can do and that thing would be know the data. So if you are working in an environment where you have individuals that are having a difficult time embracing the fact that you have a problem of racism and you're trying to move towards an anti-racism environment. One of the best things you can do is show them the data. What data am I speaking to? Well, are your black Children suspended at a higher rate than your white Children? And if they are, which nationally, that is fact nationally, then we need to look at the reasons that young people are suspended, right? Are they suspended for things such as what can be perceived as disrespect? Right? And if you're perceiving disrespect, is there an opportunity to understand culture? 00:11:07 Is there an opportunity for an adult to reflect? Now, I wanna make myself very clear, I'm not talking about like outright disrespectful things such as a child using profanity towards an adult. Like that's not, I I am not saying in any way that expectations should be lowered for black Children. But what I have found in my work and even when I was a principal and executive director is that it's very rare that it would be like an outright disrespect. It would be something that someone is perceiving as disrespect and they're perceiving it that way because again, they came into this environment with their own biases. And so they're assuming that when this black child says something or does something that that's disrespect versus versus a white child doing the exact same thing, right? And not being taken that way, I'll put it to you, but I'll tell you a quick story about a school that I was working with recently and their black Children were suspended seven times more than their white Children seven times. 00:12:11 And their leaders knew that there was a higher level of suspension, but they had not looked at the data to know that it was actually seven times more. So when I pulled that data and I supported them in looking at that data. Two of the leaders immediately said, I cannot believe this, that I can name several, this was middle school, I can name several white, middle school age girls right now that have the worst attitudes, right? It was, and it was kind of like a uh a lighthearted kind of thing like they like they, she, she has the absolute worst attitude, understanding at that time, I like of hormones are changing. Middle school. That's tough. We all get that. How, but how are they not being written up yet? The Children that are being written, it was mind boggling to them. And so it was a great point of reflection and an opportunity to pivot for those leaders where you can see very clearly that you, you are interacting with these Children every day. I'm not and you can see very clearly that we have a problem, right? 00:13:15 And so I I all of that to answer the first part of that question around if you have individuals that will not accept the truth, start with the data, right? And I want to go beyond behavioral data as well because often we hear statistics and things about black Children that equate to to data, which I mean, excuse me, that equate that are in relation to, to behavior, pardon me? Um And I want to kind of take us outside of that box because sometimes we can get stuck there and we forget that black Children need an academically rigorous environment. So I want to take it to the academics. I've also been in environments where uh there are a much larger percentage of white and Asian students in A P classes and honors classes than there are black Children. Now, one could say, oh, well, a P honors is based on test scores is based on grades. What a lot of people don't know is also based on teacher recommendation. I I was a high school principal and I've worked in a lot of high schools and I've seen it myself. 00:14:18 It teacher recommendation is typically be. And let me tell you why teacher recommendation is typically taken into consideration because you can have a child that's incredibly bright naturally, but they can also be kind of lazy, right? And teachers know that. So teachers will say, oh well, yes, it shall get straight A and they score high on this exam. However, I have to push them constantly to do the work. They don't have the drive, the motivation. I don't think they will be successful in the A P class. So that's why teacher recommendation is important for, for leaders to be able to understand those um qualitative things about young people. So when you think about the fact that teacher recommendation is considered and yet every year after year, your A P honors class are packed with white and Asian students, could it be that some biases play though? Is someone even taking into consideration that they're black Children that are just as brilliant but not given the opportunity because we come into the classroom with the belief that black and brown Children cannot excel academically like they're white and Asian peers. 00:15:25 So that's why the data is so important. It's the very first action. It's a mind, it, it helps with the mindset. But then it's also the very first action that I take with schools when I'm in schools because I need to know what I'm working with. But more importantly, you need to know what you're working with and you need to know the truth about what's happening in your school district or, or your individual school. That is brilliant. That is, I just love this idea of like just look just looking at the data like what is going on like, yes and, and, and then from there you have like, I think you have a three letter acronym, I believe. So like that was kind of, I think part of the first one. Do you want to walk us through? Like what's after knowing the data or looking at that the data? Well, it's not an acronym. However, I like that I did, I'm gonna try to come up with one after this time. So, but that's, that's the first step. Um The next step is if there are disparities, which there often are assessing why the uh disparities exist, right? 00:16:29 So going back to my early examples in that, what are the adult actions that are leading to these student outcomes? As I said before, anti racist school environments begin with anti racist adults. So we need to assess why there are so few black and brown Children in A P and honors. We need to assess why black Children are being suspended at higher rates and understanding because you wanna make sure you're solving the right problem. Right. And there could be a million on surface reasons why. And this is why having an outside person is so important in these situations. Because a school leader, a teacher or someone who's dedicated to education, dedicated to Children can come up with a million reasons as to why that data looks the way that it does and it can all be on surface and it can all be valid and true. But if we really drill down, we know that's not really the foundational issue that we're experiencing here, which then leads me to my third point which is adults have to take responsibility, period. 00:17:35 You know, uh we all have biases. It's like it is impossible to not have them and we have to take responsibility for the fact that we have them and the young people that are put before us do not deserve to experience them when they come in front of us every day. If the adults can't take responsibility for the fact that there is a problem, we have data that says there's a problem we've discussed why this problem exists. Now, we have to have the courage to name this and work towards changing it. So naming that, let's think about this from a leader perspective that might look like a leader, principal, assistant, principal superintendent, whichever standing in front of the individuals, they lead and saying everyone, we have a problem and depending upon where the person is in their leadership, how long they've been at the school, it may be, we have a problem and I take responsibility for that problem. Right. And they want to take responsibility for the problem. 00:18:37 Not because they did every write up or because they were involved in every, you know, selection of who goes to A P honors. But because it is your responsibility as a leader to keep an eye on the data, it is your responsibility as a way to look at the hard stuff. And if this has been happening and you were not aware, then it would, it does benefit you and the staff for you to say I take responsibility for not being aware of this earlier. And I'm also taking responsibility for making sure that it changes. Yes, I I there's so much about this that I love. So I, I love this idea of taking responsibility. And what it reminds me of is I love the framework of um like adaptive leadership and there's a quote from some adaptive leader scholars that are talking about the underlying thing, like the root usually is like a value belief or loyalty that underlies it. And I've always been trying to share that quote and try to ground the root cause analysis or whatever in that. It's like we're not, it's like surface level unless we get to that point, like we have as adults, this underlying kind of like belief or loyalty to something that needs to be unearthed and unlearned. 00:19:49 And I just feel like that adults take responsibility. That is perfect. Right? II, I love the way you just said that and I would, I wanted to share another story as to why I always reinforce this. I worked with the school again recently. It was a school, it was a short term um support of the school to go in and evaluate their, their policies around anti-racism and give them some feedback, et cetera. There were several leaders in the debrief meeting and the assistant principal um who identified that as a white male, understood that it was a problem, took responsibility for the problem and said, I understand that we have to change this. I just don't know how OK, his supervisor, the school principal whom also identified as a white male leaned back in his chair and said, I know that it's a problem. It's just too hard to tackle. I exhibited a lot of self control in that moment. 00:20:52 Um And I addressed it as it needed to be addressed. And what needed to be communicated to this person is that you are a principal of a high school. Your job is hard. You're like you come to work every single day to do hard things. We just had a conversation about your classrooms not having rigorous enough instruction and you were all for that conversation. That's hard as well. But when it comes to creating an environment where black and brown Children, black and brown staff members feel comfortable even coming into this building and setting them up for success in this building. And in the future, you lean back and you just get to say it's too hard, then, then you're not taking responsibility, right? You're taking the easy way out and that one decision uh because I, I just always try to communicate to school leaders how powerful they really are because I think that sometimes we can forget how powerful we are. That one small decision of the principal making a choice to not tackle this work will impact thousands of Children, thousands of Children that are waking up every morning, simply coming to school to get a fair and appropriate public education free and appropriate public education and somebody an adult made a decision that the work that they really needed was just too hard and that he wasn't gonna do it. 00:22:20 Yeah, I, oh my gosh, I cannot even believe that like what that would have taken restraint wise to not, not I'm even restraining myself now, but there's definitely some words I want to say to him. But yeah. Right. And I think what people often think of is I usually, it's usually a distinguisher. People are like, oh, it's a we want to be safe. We were safe, like safe versus comfort is like a huge thing. I also think hard versus comfort is the difference there, right? Like you just want to be comfortable, sir, like and, and you want to be comfortable because it doesn't directly impact him. Let's be honest, it's not gonna directly impact him or his Children. Hey, it's Lindsay here to tell you about today's episode free B so Nadia and I talk a lot about root cause analysis and strategic planning and getting into those deep conversations. So I'm sharing with you my root cause analysis worksheet, which includes my data analysis worksheet as well in today's show notes. So go to the blog Lindsey by client dot com slash blog slash 135 to grab it. Now, back to this amazing conversation with Nadia because he identifies as a white male. 00:23:22 So he's fine. He can go home at night. He doesn't have to worry about his child being being killed unarmed just because they're getting, you know, they're getting gas at a gas station or like whatever the scenario is this year, right? He doesn't have to worry about his child being funneled into the school to prison pipeline. He doesn't have you have to worry about his child being passed along when they should be supported more academically or people or his child walking into a classroom and people having low expectations for him. That's not his concern. So he gets to lean back. And so that's why I think, no, not not a thing, but that's why I often use the word uh anti-racism because I'm not sure those who are not familiar with Ky's book, he says in there, it's not enough to not be racist. One must be anti-racism and anti-racism looks like taking actions against racist policies, taking action against racist ideas and expressions, et cetera. So that same man will look at me and say, well, I don't mistreat black people intentionally. 00:24:27 I don't use the N word, I don't do A B and C. So that means that I'm not racist. No sir. No sir. That's not enough and it's really not enough because of the work that you do and what the Children, you owe these Children because you decide to take this job, you wanted to do this work, so you owe them, you, you give them the education that they deserve. But I, I'll stop now. I'm sorry, I'll stop now. No, I think this is a just perfect perfect demonstration, right? Of like what this literally looks like when we're in the meetings. Like sometimes I think it's hard to pull back the curtain on like what does it look like in those meetings when these decisions or conversations are being had amongst the because only a few people get to actually be a part of those conversations. And this happens so often like so often, like you said, that's what the conversation is and that's what the manifestation or like the uh result of that decision or that comment is harming thousands of Children. Like and it's this behind closed doors meeting. You know, I just, I think I thank you for bringing it up. You're welcome. 00:25:30 You're welcome. I'm also wondering and I don't know if this is too, I don't wanna, I don't wanna like do too many like case studies of this but I'm wondering of like, OK, cool. So I'm wondering if there is another example you could share of like, let's say if you were saying, you know why the disparities exist, you could, you could say like AAA range of reason of reasons. But I think thinking about the adult piece or the adults taking responsibility. I'm wondering if there is like something early on where in a conversation you've had with, with a school or a district or something where they've said, oh, this is the reason, but it's really one of those surface reasons that you talked about and, and later on realizing or maybe you realizing from your coach lens, like there's actually something that's much deeper there that that was missed on the initial pass through. Could you give us an example of what the surface versus the real might be? Sure. Let me think about that for a moment. Yeah, I'm so sorry to put you on. No, it's totally fine. It's totally fine. I was the, the first thing that comes to mind is uh I worked with a district. That was a, how can I say it, it was a public charter. 00:26:37 However, it was a very small charter and it, it was difficult to get into due to the fact that they can only take so many young people, you know, um in the school year and it was a, a highly sought after uh charter. Now, the credit that I would give these leaders is that what the leader there? She did an exceptional job of creating the very diverse environment when she got there, she said no, like initially, it was a, a very, it was white and Asian majority and she wanted to create diversity. And so she intentionally brought in more black and brown Children, which I think is incredible. And so as we were talking through the, the behavior numbers because black Children were being suspended at a higher rate, I heard the leaders keep saying something to the effect of, oh, well, this young person came from a public school and they're getting used to the culture here because they didn't this, this particular school did a positive behavior support. 00:27:42 And so, well, oftentimes it takes them a while to get used to the way that we discipline here because we have positive behavior. So that's why we have to do A B and C and, and I thought to myself immediately, is it that they're getting used to it or is it that you're assuming that because they're coming from public school, then they're black that they're gonna come here and misbehave. Right? And so the reason I said earlier is that all of the reasons could be valid. Now, do young people have to get used to a different culture? Of course, we're humans. When we get into a different environment, we have to adapt et cetera. However, if no one's there to ask why and push them to a deeper understanding of really, there's a mindset believes a belief here, as you said. So poignantly earlier, there's a belief here and that belief is playing out and how you are accepting these young people and how you are educating them and you're leaving it at this surface level of. Well, they just got here who you can't tell me that every uh black student that comes from public school is misbehaving like you can't. 00:28:46 It's not, the odds are very slim. And so we have to look at what do the adults believe about the child before the child even comes into the building. So that's uh an, an example of that. And yeah, so that's an example of that. Yeah. What a great example. Thank you for sharing that. I think you're very welcome. That's another example. That's like a very common surface reason that people would share, right? This happens a lot. I think people could probably listening, relate to that example. Yes. And, and that's why I I I'm glad that that you feel that way because like I said, I've worked this, listen, I'm not new to education. I've been a teacher, I was a teacher, I've been an assistant principal, a principal and executive director and I was a turnaround leader. So I understand all of the reasons and the context, et cetera, et cetera. But we have to know that we live in a world that automatically views black Children from a deficit mindset. The deficits of that child are going to be discussed and on paper and in people's minds before the child even enters the classroom. 00:29:52 To the point that when a black child comes into a classroom and they are academically strong, right? When they can surpass their peers, we're shocked. Why are we shocked? Those are other little signs that we should be looking for, right? Because if you have the same expectation for the black child that you have with the white child, are you shocked when a white child does well, academically? Probably not because what you expect them to do well academically and you don't expect that of the black child and that's where those things begin to play out. Thank you for, for saying that that is absolutely absolutely resonating with me. I I wanted to say before we go into a couple closing questions, is there anything else that you, I wanted to ask, I guess is what I meant. I wanted to ask, is there anything else that you wanted to share? With us before we kind of moved to to our wrap up questions. Yes. So one of the in to those three things that I mentioned earlier, the data, why and taking responsibility, the last thing I would say is commit for the long haul. 00:31:02 So we have to also understand that it didn't this uh racist, these racist social structures that we all live in every single day were not built yesterday. The belief of the inferiority of a black person was not etched into our minds. Yesterday, we were born into this, right? We have grandparents and great grandparents that because of when they were born, they believe these things and they passed it down our textbooks, pass it down, et cetera. It's going to take time, right? And so when I say commit for the long haul, it's wise to settle in, settle into the discomfort and create a 12345 year plan to say this is how over time we're going to shift mindsets, we're going to shift policy. So shifting mindsets could be identifying, let's say this is random, identify, let's say an eight part anti-racism series for professional development that everybody that comes into your school environment as a teacher, leader, et cetera, everybody gets that training. 00:32:18 So they understand when they come here. Oh, I know where I'm working, right? They're serious about that work, right? And so, but even building something like that even that takes time, so settle in and commit for the long haul because these systems weren't created overnight and they're not gonna be changed overnight. I love the idea of doing like an A RPD for everyone who comes in. That's brilliant. That is so good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And I, I am just so excited to see like, I'm sure that people are gonna be like reaching out to you after this to be like, can you help me with that? I love to, I would love to. That is awesome. And so what, while we're thinking about all of the things that we have talked about today, we've talked about a lot of, a lot of different things that people might do. And I love this idea of settling in for the long haul. The kind of the short term like getting started or like momentum builder. What's like the first thing that someone could do when they stop listening to the episode, what would you say that would be like, what's the, the very first thing I, I would say there's an individual thing and then there's a group thing, the individual thing is to start your own work, find the book, find the podcast, be honest with yourself, journal about it, reflect on where you are as an individual, on your understanding of race, period. 00:33:40 Because if you're going to be leading this charge, it's gonna trickle down from you. So the first thing is you wanna do your own work. And at the same time, if you're the leader of a school or even the teacher of the school, start looking at your data so that the data examples that I gave you earlier were really for leaders. But teachers can look at their data too and say, hey, like are my black Children failing at a high, failing my class at a higher rate? Um you know, they can, they have data, they can review too. So individually start your work as a group for the larger impact. Start looking at your data reflecting on your data and looking at what you can do differently beginning the very next day. Excellent, excellent suggestions. And this, this question is just purely for fun. I feel like everyone who comes on is just constantly obsessed with learning and growing and doing their own thing. So anything you've been learning about lately and this does not have to relate to the work that you do, but it it can if you want. Um That's a, that's a great question. I'm gonna be very transparent. I have been learning that this work even for myself is to also be done over the long haul. 00:34:56 And I have to be patient with individuals that are just starting to engage with the work or have not engaged with the work. And I'm learning that because I truly have been fortunate as a school leader, both principal, as well as executive director and it may be the places where I worked. It may just be because of who I am. I don't know where I always worked alongside or supervise individuals that didn't shun away from this work always. And they were always in uh various places along their learning. Some people said the wrong things sometimes et cetera. But they understood that there were things that they didn't know and they were invested in learning and some people were way far ahead. Right? And they had already done their work and could help me in helping others. I recognize now that I'm in a consulting role and I'm working with schools nationally that that was actually I was really fortunate to have that. And I got a little bit spoiled. And so now that I'm working with schools nationally, I'm like, oh man, like there are schools that have not even really started this work and it requires me to exhibit grace, um understanding patience, et cetera. 00:36:08 Like with the example that I gave you earlier with the principal that leaned back. If he had met Nadia five years ago, my, my response would have been very different. I'm not always proud of those responses, but trust me, my response would have been very different. But now I can lean back and say, you know what, he's just not there, he's just not there yet. And what can I do maybe through this assistant principle, right. That is there and maybe support him in managing up. So I'm learning to have grace and, and um in my support of schools and, and understand that every school needs, this is in a different place that's really profound. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to take that on too because that is hard work that you're doing and so important to, to be able to make sure that the work does get done right, to be able to stay in it Like, yeah, thank you for sharing that and, and I'm sure as I said, people are gonna want to reach out to you and, and work with you. So where can people I'll find you online? Absolutely. So uh they can sign up. 00:37:11 Well, they can find me at Nadia Bennett backslash podcast where they can sign up for resources, either school leader, resources or resources about anti-racism. And then they'll also get all my contact information when they sign up there. And I also can be found on Instagram at when Brown Girls Lead and on linkedin, I am Nadia a Bennett. Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much Nadia. This has been an absolute joy talking to you. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you for having me. If you like this episode. I bet you'll be just as jazz as I am at a coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane, Saer and Jamila Dugan, talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book Street Data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period? I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action. You're smiling to yourself as you listen right now. Grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm. How I can help you make this big dream of reality. I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Z Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. 00:38:20 Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm. Call it Lindsay clients dot com slash contact. Until next time leaders think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network, better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better dot com slash podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
March 2025
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