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Jerad Koepp, Wukchumni, is the Native Student Program Specialist for North Thurston Public Schools, the 2022 Washington State teacher of the year, and the first Native American educator to earn the distinction in the state. He is a leader in Native education, policy, and government to government relationships. As an educator, trainer, presenter, consultant, and advocate, Jerad also created and supports his district’s dual-credited high school Native Studies program.
We met at a conference where there was lots of “unchecked settler privilege…non-Native educators presenting content and viewpoints of Native people while not working with any of them. It was one of those great opportunities to show the shortcomings of how even in progressive or educational spaces, Native erasure or omission is still compatible with the way modern public education works.” The Big Dream Make space for Native knowledge to thrive and contribute to educating all children. Let “Native people do things the way we always have done and creat[e] spaces for that in order to learn together, collaborate together (rather than taking different theories of knowledge and ways of being and trying to fit them into settler structures).” Mindset Shifts Required Native people are racialized and politicized. Tlingit activist Elizabeth Peratrovich said, “Asking you for my civil rights, implies they are yours to give.” The connection to land is the source of all knowledge. Nature is the original classroom. Action Steps When designing curriculum, the content and the curricula are actually towards the end of the list in terms of steps. Step 1: Understand Settler History Educators need to first understand the settler history of public education and its role in assimilating Native students, which is still in place today. Step 2: Do Identity Work Educators should ask: What is my settler identity? How have I benefited from, been complicit in, and continued to be part of settler society, of settler education? How is what I’m teaching contributing to the colonial unknowing of Native people throughout history? Step 3: Give Space to Make Sure it’s Grounded it in Community At the heart of it, is community-based education. Social justice education is grounded in community. Public education doesn’t give us the space to do that. Step 4: Crosswalk Indigenous Academia with K-12 And develop courses. They started with an 11th grade course: U.S. History Through Native Perspectives. Then added Literatures through Native Perspectives (11th grade), and then added a Native Civics (12th grade). Step 5: Guest Speakers Ideas include: fellow students, people from the White House, tribal leaders, tribal council members, tribal historians, plant and medicine teachers, authors, Missing or Murdered Indigenous Persons advocates, native roboticists. It’s more than guest speakers. It’s healing—reclaiming knowledge, contemporizing Native people, and diversifying Native representation. (If using Native singers or dancers, we have to explore the impact, the meaning of the songs, the regalia, the importance of language, story of people.) Step 6: Make The Courses Count as College Credit Students shouldn’t have to choose between AP or Native studies. The weight should be equal or greater than a typically offered course. Partnering with universities protects the work and sustains it. It also helps better prepare future teachers. Jerad’s high school students guest taught undergraduate and graduate students! Step 7: Honor the Genealogy of Knowledge A key difference from traditional teaching/teacher training is the importance in Native studies of a genealogy of knowledge: Teachers are facilitators. “I learned how to weave this from these people of this tribe in this place.” This establishes a commitment to relationship—”I am responsible to these people for the way that I share this information.” Be Mindful Of… “We can’t just absorb information because Western society has extracted from Native people for five centuries with devastation. And so, we need to be able to acknowledge that, heal it, and then make sure we don’t do it again…a big part of the work we do needs to be generative to contribute to a brighter indigenous future, a brighter future for the knowledges that we have the privilege to share in our class.” Steps to Get Started Go check out public events. Support Native-owned businesses and artists. Learn directly from Native Education groups, including the National Indian Education Association. Be intentional about who you are talking about and ask: “Who’s not there? and What does it mean?” Go to the index of your social justice books. Are Native people there? Consider language: “Black and Brown” does not include lighter shades of Native people. This only addresses the racialization side and not the political side. Books Jerad Recommends:
Stay Connected You can find Jerad on his website: http://www.jeradkoepp.com. To help you start to identify places where you might “jam a screwdriver into the cog,” I’m sharing my Diagnosing Adaptive Challenges workbook with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 126 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT Jared Cap Boni is the native student program specialist for North Thurston Public Schools. The 2022 Washington State teacher of the year and the first Native American educator to earn the distinction in the state. He is a leader in native education policy and government to government relationships. As an educator, trainer, presenter, consultant, and advocate, Jared also created and supports his district's dual credit at high school native studies program. I have to tell you all listening to Jared's podcast meeting, Jared talking with him now, both in the podcast and after we recorded, I learn so much from talking to him. This has been one of my favorite episodes to record my favorite conversations to be a part of. I truly was taking notes furiously and have every single time he speaks you guys. This is such a wonderful opportunity to learn from Jared Cap. So let's get right to the episode. I'm educational justice coach Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. 00:01:06 I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings. If you're a principal, assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nerd out about co creating curriculum with students. I made this show for you. Here we go. Jared Cap. Welcome to the Time for a Teacher podcast. It's great to be here. I'm looking forward to a great chat today. Oh my gosh, me too. So we connected uh at, at a conference and I'm really excited to kind of deepen our my understanding of all the things that you've done. You have an amazing podcast. So I, I think for me that's the context of like what I'm starting to learn about in the work that you do and I can't wait to dive in more. What can listeners know to kind of ground our conversation today about you about your work. What do you think we should start with? Um Well, I, I think they'd be interested in how we met. Um We were, we were at a national social studies conference and uh my colleague and I, we were just kind of cringe watching the amount of unchecked settler privilege that was being displayed throughout the duration of the conference um of having these like non native educators presenting content and viewpoints of native people while not working with any of them. 00:02:33 And, and so I think that was uh one of those great opportunities to kind of show like the shortcomings of how even in progressive or educational spaces native eraser and omission is still compatible with the way that, like modern public education works. Um And it just so happens like you were, you were sitting next to me and probably wondering what's, what's this guy's deal making it weird for everybody? And it's just like, gotta make it weird. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, well said that's, that's exactly it. Right. It was, it was incredibly uncomfortable. It was throughout the conference. It was something that I'm, I'm definitely glad that we started with in terms of, of naming exactly why we're here today. Yeah. And well, one example there um I can't remember which one we were in, but it was really educational for me to, to, to see how like uh visibility comes with responsibility, right? 00:03:40 Like we, we want to have more representation. But if it's done without the proper positional uh the, the proper self work and the proper relationships, you're perpetuating the same systems while convincing yourself, you're doing something good. And in one of those, uh a person from a prominent um Ivy League University was proposing a curriculum uh that effectively just took so your, your standard K 12 social studies curriculum and replaced Manifest Destiny with Settler Colonialism, which uh that's a whole thing to unpack and why that doesn't work. But like at one point, someone um had mentioned, like, had asked, like, how do you, did you have any, you know, native uh education consultants on this project? And after a very awkward pregnant pause, they admitted that no, there wasn't. And so being the odd one of the crowd is like, I just asked, like the obvious question that seems to escape a lot of the people. 00:04:47 Is that a, is that appropriate? And it got super quiet in the room as if like people forget that we're still here even as they're talking about our presence. Um So when we get into a lot, a lot of these conversations, I think it's particularly important with native education that the the content and the curricula are sort of towards the end of the list because educators need to first kind of understand sort of the the settler history of public education, its role in assimilating native students, which is still in place today. Um But they also need to spend a good amount of time in the mirror doing the identity work. Like what is my settler identity? Um How have I benefited from been complicit in and continue to be part of settler society of settler education? And how am how is what I am teaching, contributing to the colonial unknowing of native people throughout history? 00:05:59 And so we get into a lot of self work. But then I think the other big lift is that we don't translate really well. At all into other frameworks of social justice de I work. Um And, and so then where the, where the jump gets really big is that we now have to start considering other epistemologies and onto in education. And so that's where you kind of get either fatigue or people throwing their hands up. It's like, whoa, those are big words I haven't used since I was writing in college and now I gotta think about like theories of knowledge. It's like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we're gonna be, um, authentic and respectful and genuine in this work, we have to understand that there have been longstanding systems of instruction and education and its roles and our views and relationships to that that have existed for centuries, thousands of years before the formation of the United States. 00:07:09 Mhm. Absolutely. I, and I, I'm, I'm wondering now there's so many directions we can go with this conversation that I'm kind of wondering one of the questions I typically ask, ask folks at the star and this comes from Dr Bettina Love talking about freedom dreaming is, is kind of what is the, the, the freedom dream so to speak that, that you hold, like if you were able to, um, you know, un undo a lot of like teacher education things that we, we go through as teachers and, and all of that stuff and just, and think about like, what a, um, a AAA more kind of like unsettled use word from your podcast, like system of education would be um what would that approach look like or what would you, what would you kind of envision here? That, that's, yeah, that's, that's a lot to unpack. Um Sorry. So one of, one of the things that, that I thought of with that question and how i it would relate to uh the area that I work in uh is a quote from the incredible Kling get activist uh Elizabeth Elizabeth Petrovich. And she famously said that asking you for my civil rights implies they are yours to give. 00:08:17 And that that is a critical distinction with native people. Because when we get into theories of race and social justice, people always forget. And this is where we're like almost but not quite is that in addition to being racialized, we're also politicized, right? So that, that racial identity and sovereignty have been fabricated by the United States in order to um undermine their trust responsibilities in order to facilitate land, continued land dispossession. Um and also to like through things like the Z Act to establish systems of blood quantum, where their idea was that you could breed native people out of existence, which means then again, you're out of these treaty obligations, you're out of these responsibilities to all of the, the many hundreds of tribes that have existed here on Turtle Island since time immemorial. And so if we look at that lens, a lot of what can be done is just letting native people do things as we always have done and creating spaces for that in order to um learn together, to collaborate together rather than always trying to take different, different, like the, you know, different theories of knowledge and different ways of being and trying to fit them into settler structures because sometimes they just don't fit. 00:09:52 But the other, the other problem with that though is like when you try to squeeze it into public education with the existing systems, you're just accommodating cellar hegemony, right? You know, you know, things like um uh like language and a lot of social justice actually is easily absorbed by settler society because it doesn't ultimately like threaten their continued power. And so a lot of it is just making space for native knowledge to really thrive and contribute to educating all child, all Children because native education isn't just for native students. What's going on here is that it benefits everyone. And I think what's also really inspiring when we get into these sorts of conversations is that it helps us hopefully reflect and reconnect with the idea that every single person in the world is indigenous to somewhere, a history of colonization um has probably contributed a lot to that disconnection that your ancestors are wherever their bones may be buried in their homelands once had with, with place. 00:11:14 And so in our uh dual accredited Native studies program that we have in one of our high schools, we consistently see students with cultures representing everywhere in the world, find meaningful connections to indigenous story and indigenous knowledge. Because the, and this is, it, it's not about race, it's about their connection to place and family. And that connection, that connection to land is the source of all knowledge. And it also reminds us as we're kind of looking at the freedom is that nature is the original classroom. And it's not just that, you know, native people, you know, we, we talk to animals and, you know, we're, you know, the first environmentalists. It's, it's because that, well as John Trudell famously said, um the, the, the blood and the bone of humans are made of the same metals, metal metals, minerals, um and liquids of the earth. 00:12:24 And so if humans have been and all things on earth are made of the same metals, minerals and liquids that all things have been it. And so every single thing, all these other than human relations have things to teach us. They have medicines, they have stories they, they provide in really, really impactful ways. So, and you, this exists whether you're in an urban environment or a rural reservation environment because whether it's been, you know, built up with concrete um or not, like it's still, it's still a native place. So that, that freedom is really, it's almost like an unfettered return and access to t to traditional forms of learning and know and knowing. And then I think the, the bright future is how do we bring everyone else into that space with us? 00:13:28 And that's where that identity work um is so key because, because we have to not only be able to learn how to identify interrogate and dismantle those settler influences. Um but we also have to be able to think of like the, the, the, the importance and the in and be inspired by what we envision for the future. Yeah, I, I love this and, and I'm, I'm curious to know too because you were telling me um and, and, and on your podcast, you're talking about the um creation of native studies curriculum you've been working on and I, I'm curious to know like, what it, what does that like, concrete thing look like to give people a view of, you know, like, what does this look like in practice or what could this look like in practice? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's something of um an incredible experiment that I have been fortunate enough to um be a co creator on. Um when I was uh confronted with the idea, I was offered the idea by an incredible um ally, coconspirator administrator, friend of mine who, who asked me, like, would you be interested in creating a Native studies course for us? 00:14:42 I pretty quickly said no. Um because they, because they, when you get into these exciting areas of like social justice and de I work. There's, I know the blind spot because this is what I do. Right. And so like, it was really me questioning whether or not they had the, I think the, the, the stamina, the will and the ability just kind of provide the space and the freedom for it to be done correctly. But I thought about it for a few minutes and I said, ok, let's give it a shot. But, you know, I'm going to need your best teacher. I'm, you know, we're going to need release time. I'm like, I'm going to need that teacher, like no lie to be up in the mountains with me and like, we have to be able to travel because at the heart of it is community based education and that's always sort of the rub in however we approach social justice education is the fact that it's grounded in community. 00:15:53 But public education doesn't give us the space to do that. They want, you know, maybe, you know, on your contract, you might get one planning a day, who knows how many prep periods you have. And, and so they, they want to like turn and burn professional development and, and then like content creation, right? It's like, no, like we need to take a half a day and participate in this tribal event. Um You know, like, if you wanna learn about plant plants and medicine, it's like, ok, well, well, different seasons we gotta be going at different times, like you need to be learning in, in the places and in the communities like that, that have always been the home of that knowledge. Um And I just happened to get paired up with an incredible uh colleague, Alison mccarton, who has really um really loved the challenge of how do we crosswalk this brilliance that exists in indigenous academia into K 12 because that is a huge gap. 00:17:00 Um And not many people are in that space right now. And that's kind of where I thrive because, you know, all like the magic to me happens in K 12. And so we started out our program with an 11th grade uh us history through the native perspectives. And then uh we added uh uh 11th grade literatures through native perspectives. And then just this year, we added 1/12 grade native civics. And we have, um over the years, we have had dozens of uh guest teachers, uh you know, from, you know, people from the White House to fellow students and we've had countless um tribal leaders, council members, tribal historians, plant and medicine teachers. Um You know, we've had Pulitzer nominated uh author Linda Hogan. We've had um mm IP advocates. We've had uh native roboticists and, and so that all comes in is like one and so that there's more to it than just having guest speakers, right? 00:18:05 Because we're reclaiming and elevating that knowledge that has been banned or diminished by public education for the past 150 years. And, and so part of that is that healing that we're contemporary native people and we're also diversifying their representation. Um I have a story that I often like to tell is that, you know, the first time I hear from a teacher is, is for a singer or a dancer, like it's the bottom my to do list, right? Because that, that, that implies like a limited conceptualization of who native people are, right? Like they're, they're their sort of their schema just sees a dead Indian, right? The sort of like the Hollywood um and the Hollywood version of native people, you know, the stuff you, you, you see, you know, in Wild West shows and they don't see us as modern contemporary people like um you know, we just recently put the, the first native woman into space and is probably going to be going to the moon and like the same teachers they don't ask like, well, hey, uh is there a native judge who can come and talk to class? 00:19:21 Right? It's always some sort of surface level culture and now it's like, I'm not saying like I always like poo poo that. But what I'm, what I, what I where I start from is like inside, it's just kind of like deflating. Now. That's not saying that teachers who are interested in that aren't doing great work. It's just that um all of that comes with additional time for the instruction uh as to its its impact, right? It's not just, you know, show and you know, entertain um the settler audience and then, you know, go home. It's like, well, what are the meanings of these songs? Uh What are the meanings of the regalia? What is our story and connection as, as people? Um What's the importance of our language? And if you can build all of that in, then you're getting into something a lot more substantive in education, right? That seems like it would be like for an art class or a music class. And it's like we are, we are centering this. Yeah. And, and so as, as we kind of keep building on sort of like just how complex and rigorous uh native studies can be, uh we were able to, to partner um with uh with a local university and now we have like dual credit. 00:20:41 So students who uh complete all three courses are eligible for um uh 25 free college credits and they insist on them that it's free. And, you know, listeners may be familiar with programs like um college in the classroom. This is something like we've, we have created entirely on our own. And the the there are many facets as to why that is important. One I remember early on as we were building the program that I was having native students debate whether or not to take a P courses or native studies. And that was, uh, that was an unjust decision to me that our students had to make. And so, like the hustle was on to get, um, college credit. So that way if they really wanted to take that class, of course, they can, they, they can, they can take those A P courses, but the, the weight of it should be equal or greater than a standard, um A P or honors course. 00:21:44 And then on top of that, what was really great about partnering with the university is that it protects the work because public education loves partnering with college. Um because it's, it's, it's easy, it's fairly easy in, in a, in a good climate to create something that could be one and done, right? Leadership changes, politics change and then boom and it's gone, right? But when you're, when you're working with traditionally marginalized communities, like our memories are long and so like you, you have to go into honoring that trust and working towards the future in a really, really committed in a really good way. And so working with a university uh honors the work, it protects the work and it also helps us better prepare future teachers. So, um one of the, one of the highlights of this year's cohort was that our under our 11th grade students, guess taught the undergraduate, teaching students at a local university. 00:22:52 So they had like a whole uh multi stage set up uh for a whole morning on the, the history and the legacy of fry bread with cooking demonstrations. And, and then they also taught the undergraduate students um how to run circle. And so the, the, the last of class was, was ran through circle. And then our 12th grade students uh hosted the graduate teaching class um at their high school and they provide all the refreshments and they ran the whole show. And so they had opening circle, they had closing circle. They had uh multiple stages that was talking about like uh traditional um plant teachings and knowledge and the importance of grounded norma toity in education. Uh One was uh talking about the role and importance of sovereignty in education. Uh Another group was evaluating our state's social studies standards for settler bias with our state head of social studies, right? 00:24:00 And so then we had like all of our, our college uh partners there. And one of the best compliments uh I got was um from the, the, the university with the teaching students was like, I, I can't tell who the high school students are. And, and so like, it's really, it's really empowering that we'll be able to be generative. And that's the other key thing about like native pedagogy is that we can't just absorb information, right? Because like Western society has extracted from native people for five centuries with devastation. Um And, and so we need to be able to like, acknowledge that, heal it and then make sure we don't do it again, right? We like, how is, how should this have been done in the first place? And so what like so a big part of the work that we do, it needs to be generative to contribute to a brighter indigenous future, right? 00:25:04 A brighter future for the the knowledge is that we have the privilege to be able to share in our class. And I would say, you know, I would say for your listeners too, like the other key difference with a lot of like native content that I think a lot of content creators. Um and you can really miss is that a big part of the way that we teach is what I refer to as the genealogy of knowledge, right? It's like sometimes it's from a book, right? Because that's just the way, I mean, that's where information is. I'm, I'm a bit of a nerd. So I love me a good peer reviewed journal. But um what's really key and this is where the community based aspect of this sort of, of these sorts of programs really is key. It's not like like that, you know it, right? Like I, I watched this documentary and I'm gonna teach it and act like I know it because that's how teachers are typically trained to be the experts in the room. Whereas in native studies, um like teachers are facilitators and So it's like I learned how to weave this from these people of this tribe in this place. 00:26:16 So that what's powerful about that is not only do we honor the genealogy of knowledge, but we're also establishing to our native students and all students and established commitment to relationship that I am responsible to these people for the way that I share this information in a way that is so rare in the way that we, we teach things in school that is just worthy of a pause. I think, I mean, that is I'm reflecting on just my own practice and a lot of what you're saying, right? And how, you know, sometimes that I, I will do something like that, but it's the intention of every time being able to be clear. And I love that, that, that sense of accountability too. I mean, just really worth thinking through for all educators and leaders who might be listening. I think you've kind of named so many things that I was just gonna ask just in your, in your talking through things. I mean, mindset shifts, challenges, things that you know, leaders should know about. 00:27:17 Is there anything else that you as we kind of wind down the half hour here, wanna say to, to leaders or teachers who might be interested in um in the work but like maybe are, are like unsure of like, what's that first step or, or what do I need to be? Aware of that you haven't touched on yet. Whoa. Well, um this is, this is what II I teach at university. Um So I guess the, the shorter version would be everywhere you are in this country. You're on need of plan. Like we have tons of public events, like go check them out. Right. We have uh tons of like native creators and artists that are selling their stuff, support native owned businesses whenever you can. Um We have native education group across the United States. We have the National Indian Education Association. Like you can come into our communities and learn directly with us on like how we're approaching the opportunities and the struggles that we continue to face in education. 00:28:21 Um And then I would also, I think for like the, the challenge and kind of how we kicked off. Um If I, I think a lot of people are really kind of, they can be dismayed at how, how absent native people can be in diversity training and writing. Like you can pick up the books, some of your favorite authors. And this is something I put into my wife's head. And then she ended up doing a big um uh so race and social justice training me at her work and then she did it and she came out like disappointed and kind of mad at me for putting it in her head because it was a, a big name in social justice writing. And I I my question is go to the index and look for us. And if we're not there, it's problematic for us and it should be problematic for everyone. You know, you get into like the language of uh black and brown, right? Um Native people come in all sorts of shades, including black and brown, but also like really white passing because that's what 500 years of colonization has done. 00:29:36 And that, but that also shows the limitation of that. You're only getting sort of like the racial organization side of settler colonialism and not um the, the political side of it because you can do a deep dive into like how those series come short. Um Coltart. Um uh was it red skin white masks? Uh It's a great deep dive into that book. Um But always be kind of be thinking like, who are we talking about intentionally? It's not like we, you know, we don't, I don't have a problem with, you know, these great works because they're fantastic authors doing like really changing communities but be intentional about who you are talking to. Um Like, one example is um I typically like by I, I go to these conferences all the time because I deal in equity and it's just like you're talking about us, but you never do. So, like, what are you contributing to by just sort of like homogenizing and centralizing the native um path to liberation our histories, our struggles with everybody else. 00:30:41 And that centralization of homogenization is one of those um pillars of Settler moves to innocence. Like all of these, you know, everyone's all the same. It's like, no, we're not, we, we can intersect, we can be parallel, we can support each other. Sometimes we're at odds with each other. Um But there's a lot more depth to the learning. So like whenever you, whenever you're at a table, whenever you're doing the work, you're reading a book, ask who's not there? What does that mean? And Yeah, yeah. What does it mean? Like when we're, when we're emitting uh people from the work, sometimes it's specific, like, you know, you're just like, you're just focused on this one thing, but it's like everywhere you go, like no, like, you know, like we're omitted like, oh, well, OK, why is that? Um Those are some uh Sandy Grandy. I always highly recommend uh her work. Red Pedagogy is a great place to start. Um II I, you know, I see on, on your website, you know, um feminism um is a really, you know, uh near and dear topic to you. 00:31:49 Um Leanne Simpson's uh as we have always done really uh analyzes the, the history of uh the, the, the, the uh hetero patriarchy and sort of um uh the set, the impacts of settler uh gender and sexual identity violence because that's the other thing too is like boarding schools again, this is all big stuff. So boarding schools didn't just like, try to colonize their minds where, um, you know, like the religious folks, like, really wanted to colonize their spirits. Boarding schools also like forced, not just Christianity, but also gender roles. So if you were like, traditionally, not like, like nonconforming, you had two choices. Well, actually you didn't even have a choice. They assigned you those identities. And so you start to see like our, like the fundamentals of our identity being whittled away. And then you see things like the Homestead Act and the, the general allotment act, the act, right, that women who are often the pro the property owners like that went to the men and then through legislation that forced a, a Western, you know, hetero patriarchal like nuclear family structure, which was also like counter to the way we had traditionally done things. 00:33:15 So you start to see that like the sovereignty and legislation all plays in. And so we can't, we can't avoid this sort of aspect of it because we also where it's really important is, I think it, it brings in so much context to everyone else's conversation um in their past to liberation that, you know, uh the boy and Charles Eastman, um they were like, they were close um at the turn of the 20th century um and work, you know, and wrote papers together. And so like the, the Black and indigenous communities have always had tried to learn from each other and try to support each other throughout history. Um But a lot of that conversation today, it gets, it, it seems like it's, it's struggling in a lot of, a lot of areas. Some, some areas are really uh doing great um believe uh may uh at the Afro Indigenous History of the United States. 00:34:18 Uh is another great read. If you kind of want to study sort of that intersectionality and sort of our complexities um uh with race in the United States. So there's lots of great stuff out there to be reading. I feel like every time I listen to one of your podcasts, we're now in this one with you on, I have an ever increasing book list. So just like, and experiences too, not just booklist, right? But like those organizations that you named to be part of um the events that you shared, like they are constantly happening, right? Like I just kind of a list of activities to engage in beyond, just just the reading of the books um that you've shared today. So thank you for, for that. I'm really excited to hear, you know, what listeners engage with and, and, and what they're learning and putting into practice from that. Um As, as we kind of close, one of the final questions that I asked is um you know, what's, what's something that you personally have been learning about lately? And it could be in line with our conversation so far. Or it could be something totally unrelated. It, it could literally be anything you'd like. So, yeah. Well, I'm always learning something. I'm, I'm a bit like, obsessive about, like, just absorbing new information. 00:35:26 But I think one of the, the things that we're sharing from, from what I'm kind of learning and working through right now is as I'm sure your listeners will understand, like, like there is a lot of, there's a lot of content to cram into like short conversations um about areas that are really unfamiliar to a lot of people. And there's, there's a big e eagerness to go deep. Well, you don't often have time, right? It's just sort of the reality of it. Um And so, one of the things that I've been learning and sort of working on is how to take these rather like abstract, seemingly abstract concepts and how to represent them and, and sort of break them down so that way they're, they're more accessible to people. Um So, like 11 for, for example, um uh Il's uh book, uh The Third Space of Sovereignty. Um He, he talks about how sort of like native, there's a lot of work that happens on the boundaries. 00:36:32 And so settlers are all about land, they're all about boundary. And, and so the way that I approach it is like I'm trying to work out and communicate and kind of theorize what happens on the boundaries of sort of uh settler presence. And so there, there could be like versions if we're looking for like social justice, where are those boundaries solid? Where are they permeable? And then where are they fragile? Right? So like, where can we make our moves? Um So there's like different understandings of what we can do. But there's also like, well, if you want to be like a classroom insurgent, right? Where can I work within that system to interact on the boundaries to push those boundaries out? And that's where it comes back to like the personal work. It's like I have to be able to understand my identity and my, my location and then understand the environment in which I am. And so if once I have a sense of these, these boundaries, actually, I, I was uh I taught a class at U dub and I used this image like of like Luke Skywalker and like the the the two moons of was it tattooing? 00:37:49 Right? I'm not sure. OK. So, but they have two moons, right? And what was great about this picture was that the horizon, the boundary was really blurry, right? Because it kind of is, and that's sort of like how that that Settler control works is they're always kind of like playing with it and it's always a bit fuzzy. But then um so then kind of looking in these different spaces like, well, you have like ethnic studies which I think can intersect on those boundaries really well. And some beautiful work is being done. And it's also I think particularly more accessible to teachers looking to make that jump, right? Because the the the gap in those valleys is a lot more narrow. And I think the approach is a lot more generalized. Um So there, there are a lot more the teacher, the teacher can stay connected as they make the journey. Whereas I often see like native studies is occupying its its own third space. And so how do I kind of like demonstrate and graphic out for educators? 00:38:56 And, and so it's, it's a really interesting kind of thought about like, well, how how do all of these worlds sort of interact and inter intersect and collide with each other? And I feel like kind of looking at the the systems of it is a unique privilege. But um I think it's also something I see a lot of really brilliant people in academia really starting to ask these questions. So we have all of these different structures, right? We have like the immediate impacts of, you know, explicit or implicit bias or racism, right? Um you know, racism behind school dress codes or you know, the the the history of assessment in schools, right? We have these, these um these artifacts of it, right? But what happens when we start to like, look at how like the plant works and then where can we even with fewer resources? Like jam a screwdriver into the cog to, like, they either break it or slow it down a little bit. 00:40:00 And I think part of that is sort of like understanding like where we're at and in relation to history, like, sort of like that seven generation time span. Like our ancestors really have, you know, like, they don't want us to, I don't think that my ancestors want me to fight the same battles they fought, right? It's, it's like our time to do the work in our present. But at the same time while we're doing the work is that I'm also like, always kind of like learning and helping other people to reflect on remembering like the, the joy in the future, right? We always have to visualize a joyful future and what that means to us individually as groups, as a society. Um So I, I think that's kind of what, where my learning has been kind of working right now. Wow, that is fascinating. I feel like I can talk to you all day about that. It is so interesting. Um And thank you for kind of you. You can always hit me up again, like, amazing. Thank you. And actually, I, I want to ask that to where can listeners if they want to get in touch with you or follow some of the great work you're doing like, where, where's the best place for them to go? 00:41:12 Um Well, I, I don't do social media. Uh, I, uh, I use a typewriter frequently, um, amazing, but, uh, you could check out Jared K dot com. You'll, you'll see a little bit more about, uh, who I am and what I do and some of my work. So, and you can also find out how to, how to contact me if you have questions. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jade. I really appreciate your time today and all of the wisdom you're constantly sharing with the world. I really value your time. What a fantastic conversation with Jared Cap first. Go look at all of the things that Jared talks about all of the resources. We'll add those to the blog. Also in the blog, I am adding a diagnosing adaptive challenges workbook. If you are trying to find those places for you to as Jared has kind of Jama Jama Screwdriver in the cog there. Why don't you check out diagnosing adaptive challenges workbook again. In addition to all of the books and resources that Jared shared, those are all gonna be listed for you on our blog post for this episode, which is Lindsay Beth allon dot com slash blog slash 128 Lindsey Beth dot com slash blog slash 1 28. 00:42:18 If you're leaving this episode wanting more, you're going to love my life, coaching intensive curriculum, boot camp. I help one department or grade team create feminist anti racist curricula that challenges affirms and inspires all students we weave current events into course content and amplify student voices which skyrockets engagement and academic achievement. It energizes educators feeling burns out and it's just two days. Plus you can reuse the same process any time you create a new unit which saves time and money. If you can't wait to bring this to your staff, I'm inviting you to sign up for a 20 minute call with me. Grab a spot on my calendar at www dot Lindsay beth lions dot com slash contact. Until next time leaders continue to think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better dot com slash podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where I explain how to replace the cannon:
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AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
August 2024
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