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Dr. Chris Jones is the Principal of Whitman-Hanson Regional High School in Massachusetts. He is the author of SEEingtoLead and host of the podcast SEEingtoLead. His overarching goal is to positively model continuous improvement in all facets of life by being purposeful, acting with integrity, and building character. In this episode, we go totally off-script to dig into what it looks like to talk about and take action towards a racial justice.
The Big Dream We are taking action on a daily basis born from a broader, greater, deeper understanding of everybody’s journey and how they got to where they are now. We need to act in a way that honors the history each individual has gone through including intergenerational trauma. Alignment to the 4 Stages: Mindset, Pedagogy, Assessment, and Content Following building closures for COVID, the district has become more racially and linguistically diverse. This prompted a realization that change is needed. Most students were in homogeneous communities in their homes during lockdown. Coming back to school and being in a racially diverse school has caused discomfort. Mindset Shifts Required As leaders, we have to stop being defensive. Leaders need to help students and caretakers be in an emotional state where they feel safe and be part of a community. From Dr. Ibram Kendi: Racism is a continuum and action-based. Action Steps Several things Dr. Jones has tried include: Support Teachers and Students to Create Belonging for All Students This involves curriculum and practice being culturally responsive and sustaining. Create a Parent Advisory Group to the Principal BIPOC parents and caretakers were invited to be in this group. Ensure Opportunities for Students to Join Clubs and Affinity Groups No Place for Hate. Get training on how to start affinity groups. Invite Black, Brown, Indigenous, Arab and Asian Students into Conversations about Policies Ask “Why is this important to you?” Leaders, do your own research. Don’t be afraid to change the policy next week. Thank Students Who Share Critical Feedback It’s as simple as, “Thank you for bringing this up to me.” Talk to White Students Who are Engaging in Cultural Appropriation After doing this, Dr. Jones saw white students stop wearing durags. Sometimes, students will just not do something around you because they know you’ll do something about it, but other times, they will reflect, engage in conversation, and stop doing it. One Step to Get Started Think about others’ experiences as a set of transparencies. Start with the first layer of what you believe in (your values) and the fact that we’re all human beings. Then, consider others’ experiences are not the same as yours and recognize you don’t understand their lived experiences. Seek to learn. Then, look at institutions and policies you can impact and recognize the effects of those policies on others. Stay Connected You can find Dr. Jones on @DrCSJones on almost all social media sites and on his website. You can email him at [email protected]. To help you in your leadership journey, Dr. Jones is sharing resources each week in his newsletter. You can sign up to get it here for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 126 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Resource: In this episode, Lindsay mentioned the book, On Apology by Aaron Lazare, M.D. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT This episode goes in a different direction than guest episodes typically go, I so appreciated Doctor Jones for taking us in that direction. And since we recorded, I have realized there were so many questions, I wish I asked that I didn't or opportunities for follow up that I didn't take us on. It's important to me to say that like Doctor Jones models we myself included are still learning. I'm definitely still learning. This was very apparent to me as I listened to the recording. And even in the moment I was like, oh, what question do I ask? One of the best ways I have found to commit to the learning is to continue to have these conversations deeply reflect on them and improve my skills for the next conversation with that. Let me tell you about today's guest, Doctor Jones. And then we'll get on to the episode. Doctor Chris Jones has been an educator in Massachusetts for 22 years. His experience in the classroom ranged from eighth to 11th grade, working in an urban setting. A portion of this was spent opening a high school division for an expanding charter school. He has just finished his 14th year as a building administrator. Chris is also the Vice president of the Massachusetts State Administrators Association. 00:01:05 MS A, a true to his way of improving the educational experience for as many people as possible. He is currently the principal of Whitman Hanson Regional High School in Women Massachusetts. He's the author of Seeing to lead a book that provides strategies for how modern leaders can and must support, engage and empower their teachers to elevate student success. Chris Blogs weekly about continuous improvement and is also the host of the podcast scene to lead which I love by the way, as a way to amplify a teacher's voices in an effort to improve education as a whole. His overarching goal is to positively model continuous improvement in all facets of life by being purposeful, acting with integrity and building character. Let's hear from Dr Chris Jones. I'm educational justice coach Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings if you're a principal, assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nerdy out about co creating curriculum with students. 00:02:15 I made this show for you here, we go, Dr Chris Jones. Welcome to the Time for Teacher Show podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, Lindsay, I'm excited about this. You know, we, we spoke, we've spoken before a couple of times and I'm just really excited to, to get into what you want to talk about today. Oh, my gosh. Yes. I, if people, if listeners have not listened to your podcast, they need to and specifically, I just loved being interviewed by you. So I think people need to listen to that one. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'll always take a free plug. Thanks. Absolutely. We'll plug it again at the end. Don't worry. So I would love to just in terms of like before we jump into the core questions would love to just frame for listeners. You know, what is something that either you're thinking of is top of mind for you as we kind of enter the conversation or that they should kind of be keeping in mind either about you or about what we're gonna talk about um throughout the time that they're listening, um Sure they can keep in mind that uh at the top of my mind, I'm a struggling work in progress uh when it comes to topics of diversity and equity, um and inclusion, I always, I always work to make sure that those are things that are occurring. 00:03:28 But um as I find out on a daily, there's, there's always room for improvement as is with everything, but somehow it just seems more upfront now in these areas because while I'm, I'm, I'm a huge believer in continuous improvement. Um I want a state award by the Counselors Association. So I must be doing something right there. But um, the people you affect and the populations you affect when you're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, not to overuse those phrases, but um are, are traditionally underserved populations. And so the idea that you can continually improve yourself. Yeah, great. But you've been improving yourself when you're talking about this, you're talking about populations, many of which may have not had that opportunity to continuously improve themselves or they've, uh they've had AAA much more of a struggle than other people that have enjoyed privilege have had. 00:04:29 I, I once had it explained to me through a book that I was reading, um, headwinds and tailwinds and using the idea of flying across country, which is something I related to because I've flown across country a few times and the idea that when you are flying into the wind, it adds time onto your flight when you're flying back, obviously, you get quicker. I know everybody's going. Yeah. Ok, Chris. Right. Everybody knows that. Um But what they don't realize is it's not like something just completely pushing you backwards. It's that constant pressure, those little steps that I always talk about that before, you know, it is built up into something too large to handle or much larger than anybody should have to handle by themselves. Oh, my gosh, this is reminding me. So as of the time of this recording was somewhat recent, but, but I had gone to this conference that was like just this epic panel, epic panel. And Doctor Bettina Love was who I usually ask a question in regards to their quote at the top of this, each of these episodes. 00:05:32 But she was talking about like the impact of like all of that, right? All of the things you're just describing and talking about how like she had an illness and she's like, it is literally like white supremacy living in my body. Like, how crazy is that? Like I that I have to like weather, I think it's the term is called weathering. Like there's this kind of like ongoing headwind that you're facing and like all of the oppression and the barriers and the extra just stuff it literally manifest as like health complications and it like, so it could literally be like life or death and it was just, I mean, she's brilliant, but I was just like I to your point about constantly learning and evolving, like I am constantly just learning all the things that I don't know. And I'm like, that is like just this extra level of like to just go off of what you're saying like truth. Wow. Well, it's, it's crazy too if you think about it like one of the. Ok. Ok. So I, I am I was gonna say a closet dork but not so much in the closet. Um But you look at pictures of presidents and you look at the before and after pictures of presidents and how they look, they look young, they look vibrant. 00:06:38 Hey, I just won the presidency. Awesome. I'm on top of the world. Four years later. They're like, man, show me the door and they look like 20 years older because of that, the, the effect that the stress of the job is put on them. Well, take that effect in every aspect of your life and how could it not have a physical outcome? And you know, even more so than that. And I mean, without going too much into my current reality, but even more so than that, um you know, when you talk about trauma and the effects of trauma through generations, well, there was a ton of trauma experienced by a lot of these groups. And so it's not as easy to say that didn't happen to you or you know, you didn't experience that, but they have that connection to it and that trauma has, has become generational trauma and passed down to where we don't want people to become victims. Um And think with a victim's mentality, but oftentimes that's embedded due to past trauma that's been passed down through their families, how many of us look at our ancestors and say Well, I am that way because of so and so, and you know, and oftentimes white individuals, white males say it in kind of a, a um, loving is the wrong word but kind of a, a loving or reverence type of feeling saying. 00:08:02 Well, yeah, I'm either built that way because of this. I think that way because my grandfather thought that way and that's the way to be. Um without us even really coming to realize that until we're already steeped in that situation. So I don't understand how the same or people can't see that the same is true for traditionally underserved um populations of individuals. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, there's so much i, there's so much there. This could be a whole different direction from my accent. I think res my grandmother's hands is like one of the best books that I've read about thinking about that, like embodiment of trauma. And also like he talks about, right, like, even like white history, like white folks history and like the people who have come to what is now called the United States, but like who, who kind of came over? We're often like fleeing oppression of a different kind. And like, so there's just like all this oppression, like across the board in all racialized populations that it's just like we carry so much, like we carry so much of the things that we interact with daily and then also of our ancestors in various ways. 00:09:08 Like to your point, like, definitely depends on how you're racialized and like, in what categories that, you know, we've, we've put people into boxes and I just think there's so much there that, like, in order I'm gonna make a rough segway here, but in order to, like, we're gonna do a whole new series. Yes. Um, in order to like, contextualize, you know, kind of the, the conversation we're gonna be talking about, kind of like starting with that big dream, like to sit with that context, right? Of all the heaviness, right that our students and our teachers and our leaders are experiencing as just human beings and then to pull everybody together and be like, we're gonna do this thing called education. Like I think, you know, that is a big lift and I'm, I'm wondering like the dream of what it could potentially look like in, in this beautiful world that we could create and, and Doctor Betina loves quote that I said I would reference, you know, is in regard to freedom dreaming. She says there are dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so recognizing that injustice and taking a stance on critiquing it, given the context we started this episode with and all of that complexity. 00:10:16 What's the big dream that you hold for? Specifically kind of like curriculum instruction? What, what does that look like in, in the perfect school that you could envision? Wow. And we've got one show you said, um, all right. So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna go with a broad, a broad statement and then we can unpack it from there. Um, my dream when it comes to curriculum, obviously it'd be easy to say, um, the curriculum materials and curriculum taught in a way that is, um, culturally authentic or relevant, but everybody knows we should be doing that right. Curriculums are, well, I, I would hope, let's put it that way. Curriculums are changing over, especially in literature, you see the changes so that we have windows and mirrors and we follow the idea of windows and mirrors for, for these different populations and all the students we see in front of us. Um And that is um that's part of a larger dream that I have for education that we are taking action on a daily basis, born from a broader and greater and deeper understanding of everybody's journey and how they got to where they are now. 00:11:24 Um You know, there's a lot of, if you look at at Native American culture, there's um a lot of, and I just referenced Native American culture. I'm sure there's others but um that reference a lot of the spirits and the, and the spirit realm and their spirit ancestors that are still with them and travel with them today. Um Given that we, we lend truth to that because we're understanding, we're open minded. Well, if we're lending truth to that, how can we not believe that we need to act in a way that honors the history that that individual has gone through. That they may not have experienced physically, but they have definitely experienced spiritually and passed on to their family. Wow, that is so much, there's so much there kind of the relevance piece, the authenticity piece, the acknowledgment of ancestors. I I think about um Dr Goldie Muhammad's work when she talks about just studying black historical literary societies and, and like defining so many things as you know, the ancestors define joy as this and the ancestors have pursued these things and just like honoring that I think is such a huge thing that we often skip over into center that in your dream, I think it's really powerful. 00:12:39 So as, as we kind of think about like where either your individual school is or, you know, practice specific practices, you want to think about like, where do you think like there is kind of AAA dream that you have that's not quite fulfilled yet a direction, maybe you're wanting to head a practice you want to implement. Um where do you think there's kind of a solid foundation for, for this work? Um And, and I often think about these kind of buckets or stages of like, there's like the culture piece, the culture of partnership, partnership with students families. There's like the pedagogical piece, like, how are we actually literally teaching and interacting? There's like, how do we assess it? And also like to your point about um the el a classroom and, and the authors and the stories we bring in like, what is the content and the text that we explore and the histories we value and, and talk about, you know, considering all of those pieces, you know, what, what are your thoughts around that in terms of practices that, that you've seen be really successful and practices that you want to grow is, is that it, that's all you've got for the question that for like 400 questions for one. Um So, OK, so where we are, we're my school and, and moreover, even the district is in a, in a stage of transition. 00:13:50 Um We didn't have a lot of diversity and so where we find ourselves now is we say a lot of diversity. Um No, I I've taught in other places, you know, starting my educational career, even where I went to school. Um much more diverse than where we are now. However, for this school, which is part of the overall thing for everybody is that we have to see where people are and take them from there. We're still not that diverse, but for us, we are very diverse and it's growing um rapidly and we're talking racial diversity, religious diversity, linguistic diversity, all the above. Thank you. Uh No, racial and linguistic. Um Not so much religious, but um that's not growing that much. But racial and linguistic. Definitely. So, we, we leave for COVID. Right. We're out of school for COVID and we come back and I'm standing out in front of the school. I greet buses and students as they come in every day and I'm watching the buses unload and I'm like, whoa, and I'm like, whoa, like a good thing. 00:14:56 I'm like, ok, awesome. And then the students are coming in everything and most of the teachers are like, ok, awesome. Some of the teachers are like, hm, I'm not ok. So how do I deal with this? And don't get me wrong. There's a sense of that everywhere. Not in a, not in a negative way, but the good thing about that or the positive aspect of that is that there's a real relation, a realization that something has to change, right? This can't be like, it's always been because these students won't plug in and engage and it's not as easy as saying, hey, just get on board. Um because, well, there, there's two factors, right? There's one, a growth in population two. There's the idea that they haven't been in school for a year and a half. So they've been in a less diverse area now, I'm talking about our white students, I'm talking about our black students, our brown students, they've all been in pretty, a pretty homogenous atmosphere while they were at home for a year and a half. And now they come back to school and I don't, I, I'm not gonna take credit for this. 00:16:00 Um, Henry Turner said this to me why he was um talking to me on my podcast that if we think about it, high school is the last place where we force everybody to be together, who's different without their input as to who they want to be with. And so that's where the rubber meets the road as far as making diversity work or making people feel um like they're like, it's an equitable situation. And so when they came in, um all these different students, we're trying to figure out how to teach in person again, with all these different things, we have all the diversity in front of us. And so we struggle and now that diversity has continued to grow linguistically, especially as, as well as racial and it's caused issues. It's caused an uncomfortableness. And I now I mentioned Henry Turner because the beginning of this year, we focused on this difference. We saw this difference happen the year before and we said, look, this is a good thing if we can make it a good thing or continue to be a good thing because there are people, there are components in our communities, there are components in the school that are not pleased and some are not pleased. 00:17:12 Uh I don't like to throw around the word racist. Um But mostly there, there's the people are not pleased. Most of them are not pleased because there's an uncomfortableness with it and it, it's change and nobody likes change anyways. But now this is a special kind of personal change where it's different, culturally all around, whether it's a linguistic or racial difference, it's culturally different and that's very difficult to overcome. So we started our year off and I, I do a soft start to my school year anyways each year so that people can kind of come in. And I focus on the, the idea of building community and belonging. And what we did is we brought in some training for our teachers, we brought in some training for our students. And as a teacher group, we got together, we did some work, um came up with things we can do in our classrooms as far as um culturally appropriate instruction. And then the students were talked to about what's this look like and how do we all get along in this? 00:18:16 And so we did that at the beginning of this year and this year has gone along and we've continued to struggle uh a little bit but with some other reasons and I guess that's where I struggle most. So we're changing the curriculum, we're bringing in people to work with people because this does not happen overnight. And um it's gotta be, it's gotta be stepped in. I've reached out for um parents of minority groups to serve on their own special advisory board. To me, we started a no place for Hate Club. Um That's gonna, looks like it's more gonna turn into affinity groups because now I just finished some um de I training that Northeastern offers and doing that. Uh speaking to the presenter, I'm gonna see if I can get her to come and present to our school. Um And then from that saying, she was talking to me how an effective way to start affinity groups is. But so we're doing all these things and still struggling and what it's turned into. 00:19:21 And this is where I struggle. I know I just talked in a long circle. I didn't mean to do that. But um there's a difference between behavior that is inappropriate, um racial inequity and behavior that's born from racial inequity. And right now those three categories, we're dealing with some behaviors. But now every behavior um that is corrected is instantly um is met with a cry of racism or that it's because of our inequitable system. Um And so that in and of itself has slowed some of the progress down because now people are saying, wait a anything I do. Um I'm now called a racist. And so then you start to get to us, them conversations going back and forth out in the community as well as within the school. 00:20:25 But most importantly, and probably the most difficult aspect to deal with is with the students because the students follow the parents and the students follow the adults And so if the adults and the the community members can't get this right. There's no way the kids are gonna get this right. Well, they will eventually hopefully with enough guidance but man, it becomes a lot harder and an uphill battle to do that. Oh my gosh, there's so much to unpack with what you share. Thank you so much for sharing honestly. So like transparently, I really appreciate that because I, I love the stance that you come from of just like we're learning and we're figuring this out and we're continuing to invest in training and support. And you know, I, I think that many, many times if we in this work, right? Like if we don't come from that orientation of like, hey, I'm still learning and then we're still growing, like we close ourselves off to growth. And so I just think, I think that's a huge takeaway for listeners to just be like, yeah, like this is kind of 0.1. 00:21:28 It's like, you know, like you have to build that foundation of like learning and growth and being willing to try something that even if it doesn't go perfectly, like you tried something and you're learning from it. And I just, I just, I just want to honor that like, you have shared all of that with that orientation and I really appreciate it. And I, I'm so curious to like dig into like some of these things. So first of all, parent advisory board. Brilliant idea. I love that. So you have some student groups going on, you're starting the affinity group. So just to kind of like recap for people who are listening some practices that they could potentially put in place. I love the idea of focusing on belonging and doing staff and student kind of focusing in terms of like what are the skills that staff need to build and then what are the skills that students need to build? It's really interesting kind of the the negotiating the uh racist labeling that you're talking about, right? Of like kind of being uh kind of a bump in the in the road or kind of like a um an adaptive challenge perhaps that, that people have to kind of negotiate. So I'm curious to know. So if you're willing to share like more about that, I kind of see this as like a a need to adapt a challenge, but like, I often talk about mindset shifts. 00:22:33 So like, you know, what is that mindset shift that needs to happen to be able to kind of unlock the growth and the kind of culture of partnership. OK. Whether it's across free show lines, whether it's across staff, student parents, administrator, like role like stakeholder roles, sometimes that is like the barrier is the role itself. Um I'm curious if you'll, you'll share a bit more about like, I don't know if there's a specific instance, I don't want to like, call anyone out. But you know, that you're thinking like, oh, well, in this scenario, you know, this is the labeling, this is where the labeling came in and this is where we could have gone, but we're held back by it. Well, I mean, like I, I had mentioned discipline things and, um, often when discipline comes up to me and, and, um, it's appealed to me and I uphold it or, or anything like that. One of the first things I hear in an instant like that, if it's, if it's a student of color, um, I've been, I've been mislabeled, so to speak so many times this year. But where I sit and, um, it, it's, it's interesting because other people tell, they say to me, I, I don't know how you do it but, um, I just keep going. 00:23:45 I know this is gonna be messy. I don't, I don't have the answers, but I am willing to have any conversation and to dig in and open things up and I've had success that way with students moving, moving through. Um, I'd love to say I have success with all those students moving through, but I don't, but we have enough success stories to make me keep going. And I look at it as I care so much that we all just take a step back and stop being so defensive and pay attention to the messages we're sending to impressionable students that I don't care anymore. I don't care what you call me. I don't care what you say to me. Um, I've had some really touching meetings with, uh, some parents where they give me a hard time and they laugh. We had a really difficult parent who then came back to sing our praises for all we've done for her student. I, I had a meeting, um, where I'm, I'm trying to think all the different ones where I had a meeting with a parent. She said, you know, Doctor Jones, I have to tell you, um, my kid and all his friends were sitting around the other day and, um, she's a woman of color and her and her kid and all his friends are, um, of color. 00:24:59 And she said, um, you know, they were all trash and all of you. And, uh, I heard my son stick up for you and say no, he's all right. And she said everybody was kind of surprised. She said I was surprised because, I mean, you know, you're white, we don't trust you because you're white. And I took that second to say, I said to her, I said, well, you know, I can't tell you how happy that makes me feel to hear that your son's, you know, starting to trust me a little bit. I said, what's, what, what's really disheartening to me is that they're getting the message from somewhere that they can't trust me because of my skin color, I'm willing to trust them no matter their skin color with the idea that I understand there's baggage with that. And that's all right if they don't trust me, but they gotta at least give me a chance. I said, I, I understand why they want it. Um, but how, how do we make this? Right. How do we untangle this awful knot where I can pay attention to the idea that there's baggage, I can pay attention to the idea that, um, they maybe even you approach education differently, but we can't do that unless we actually take a step back. 00:26:13 Stop being so defensive and realize that not everybody is the same as the other person because then she told me, well, you know, we came here and they came here because of the school, which is the, the frustrating part. They, they came here because they want the better education. They move from the town they're in, we're school choice. They move from the town that they're in because they didn't like where they were and they didn't like what was occurring where they were. And I get that you run into societal issues because then, I mean, she went on to tell me that she never thought she'd experience the racism that she does outside, like, but from her neighbors and, and things like that, which is, which is awful, um, that you, because in the end and I have to believe this, this is what keeps me going. Um, we all want better for our kids, right? Isn't that the idea that no matter what experience we have, if we experience and I, and, and look, I'm, I'm a middle, I like to say middle age, but I'm a middle aged white guy. Um, that hasn't experienced racism or anything like that has, has seen privilege. I, I've seen the other end of it, um but not experienced it personally. 00:27:18 So I get that there's that baggage and but I get that, don't you want better for your kid? Like doesn't everybody want their kid not to have to go through that? I mean, being white and having privilege? I want my kids to have better than I had and not to experience some of the things that I did. So I can only imagine that they would but we, we can only get there. And this is, this is my, my dream. You're talking about dreams is that we can all just kind of sit back, put the defenses down a little bit and trust just long enough to plant that seed and grow it from there. Let me plant the seed, I'll feed it, water it, nurture it, put a cage on it and help it grow. But you gotta let me put the seed in the ground. Mhm Yeah, I just, I, again, I want to just highlight some of the things that I think you, you said that are really kind of takeaways of one just kind of I I mean, this is my own phrasing didn't take on what you said, but like that, that the decreasing, the need to the the defensiveness, right? Decreasing that defensive huge. I I would argue that like everyone is steeped in as Beverly Daniel Tatum has that smog of racism. 00:28:23 So in, in effect, like we all are racist in given moments, right? I think racism describes an action, not necessarily an identity that is permanent. I think Ibraham Kendy talks about this a little bit if it's like, right, like a name tag versus a tattoo. And so like, I think to be able to just be like, oh yeah, that policy is racist or my approach to the student versus this student like, yeah, there was some racism in that action like just to be even able to say and be comfortable with like, thank you for pointing that out to me. Like I get to learn now with you. Like I think that is what enables like what you're saying is like the partnership with the parent that the student defending you is like that is the perception and and it is like as a white person like, you know, I I totally would understand why there is the skepticism of white folks because Doctor Betina Love in that same kind of conference was talking about like, like white folks have brought so much pain and policy and depression and like all of these things that have made it so much harder to survive and and it has, you know, those health impacts that she talked about are a result of that um of white folks in power. 00:29:26 So like as a white person who want, who is committed to anti-racism is committed to partnership and, and successful students, right? It, it's like doing what you're doing, right? It's like let me lower my defenses, let me engage with you, let me plant the seed and nurture it. And like I got you, you just have to give me that, that one little window to like, open that door or whatever the metaphor is and we're gonna sit down and we are going to act in partnership. And I think if you have that, if you have that commitment to partnership and growing the seed together, like so much as possible. And so when I think about that, that culture of belonging that you're talking about building a staff and student wide, like, that's what you're saying is at the core, like if, if so many schools can do the things and do the P DS, but they can't do the things that you just described doing, like we're not going anywhere. Right. Right. Yeah, I just, you know, it's, I don't know, it, it's to be able to sit there and realize or, you know, it's even walk a mile in my shoes. 00:30:30 And why is it easier for a white individual to look at another white individual and understand that they might have had it tough where it's not that easy for them to look at a black individual or a brown individual and say, oh, well, you know, they could only have had it this tough because that's what I know as a white person and not take a second to realize that that's a whole different, that's, that's a whole different world that, that we can't understand. The reason I want a parent advisory group is because that's lived reality. Their kids go home and talk to their parents now, they might not talk to their parents the way our kids talk to their parents and, you know, your kids might talk to their parents, but they talk to their parents about their lived reality. So whatever they're saying, it might not be accurate, whatever what kid is, you know, what do you do in school today? Nothing. Um It might not be accurate but boy, that's their experience. And so that's valid and until we deal with that, we can't get to accurate because they're not available to participate in that. 00:31:37 So if we're not putting someone in an emotional state, right? I mean, it's mail's hierarchy. If, if we're not putting someone in a state where they feel safe or an emotional state where they can then open their minds enough to typically they talk about learn. But how about just understand and be part of a larger group so that we can fix these problems because alone and separate, we're not going to, you know, I think about, um, I think about when all the continents were together, right? Um, dawn a time stuff when all the continents are together, stay with me. I'm gonna make a point that they floated apart. Well, now try and put those back together now and see how hard that is the problem is in today's society. We have floated so far apart because people have driven wedges purposely between different races, different ethnicities, genders, religions, that it, it is incredibly hard to at least even envision coming back together before somebody throws out a slur. 00:32:48 Somebody says, well, you know, this um it's, it's just gonna be difficult, it's a long road, but we need people that are willing to do that. I'm, I'm so glad you mentioned to you from Kendy because um I, so I, I was reading um white fragility. Um And that was that, that was OK. I, I got the premise, I didn't necessarily agree with some of the premise and then I read Iram Kendy and I was like, man that just, that just hit home for me. Um And the idea of racism being a continuum and being act based to where on a Monday you could be racist because you're practicing racist acts on a Tuesday, maybe not so much, but just that was such a good way to show how it's embedded in our society that I thought it was accessible. Yeah. And it, and it lowers the defenses when you can think of it that way, right? It's like, oh that's an action like I have familiarity with apologizing for actions or interrogating actions like versus this is the core of who I am and you're somehow like attacking the core of my humanity, right? 00:33:51 Like total different conversation and total lower defenses to be able to critique an action, right? Oh Yeah, so good. So, oh yeah, go ahead. Sorry. You're just gonna say, and there's so much, you know, there's so much to it. Um And there's so much that's built into society and the way we were raised, I I just heard somebody share a story how they were giving a presentation and the students in the in the auditorium were getting restless. And so this individual always heard their father say a certain phrase. And so this individual said that phrase to kind of wrap up the, the uh the assembly, they turned to the person next to them and they said, oh, well, the natives are getting restless. Well, the, the the problem is, right. First of all, you shouldn't say that anyways and they realized it, the problem is they actually have native tribes as part of their district. And there was a kid looking right at this person when they said it and they instantly, and they apologized. Now, the person was very upset that they said it and the kid that was looking said, don't worry about it. 00:34:58 And the, and the rest of the group was like, oh no, no, no, don't worry about it. But that's I, I give credit to the fact that this person said I'm gonna take it on the chin. I said something I shouldn't have said. Let me be honest about why I said that and, and how that came to be and apologize and, and authentically apologize. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I, I think the act of apology as an educator, as an adult in a situation where you're constantly working with Children super underrated. I mean, the act of being able to apologize is a game changer. Like it is a game changer. And I, I just think in addition to that, I think I have a whole book on apologies. Actually, maybe I'll link that in the show notes. It is so good. But I think, I think that idea of just thinking about the speaker, right? Who said, who said that? Because that is like some of the things that we say like regularly, I was, it was just sharing like a um a moment from uh my childhood with um there was, there was this recently in the news or something, there was someone had said, um like I'm going to kill your family or something as like a, like, like something in a, in the heat of a moment, something like that that came out and the kid was, like, completely expelled from school and, like, it was like, this big and it was like, yeah, the kid never should have said that. 00:36:10 And also I think about myself as like a third grader on the kickball field and I like, oh, you caught the ball that I kicked, like, oh, I'm gonna kill you. Like, totally something that, like was part of what I heard growing up never meant it felt immediately embarrassed at anyone. Like, when someone was like, that's so amazing. And I'm like, oh my God, you're right. Like, why can I say that? Right. But like, it's when I think about like, intergenerational and structural racism and like, the fog of that we all breathe kind of thing, it's like the more that we as adults do to help our Children, whether it's our biological Children, the Children were parenting or co parenting or the kids in our schools, like, the better we do now for those kids, the easier you're, they're going to have it, like in, in dominant groups, in like white groups, in uh cisgender groups and, you know, whatever the like dominant power access groups are, if you are more familiar with people from other backgrounds that are not yours or are the non dominant groups in the structures, like you're not gonna say that thing and let it slip because you never heard it growing up because your parents and the teachers in your community did such a good intentional job of not using language like that or not framing something in this way or intentionally taking an anti racist stance and eradicating racist policy. 00:37:22 You know, like I just think about that often from the standpoint of like our white Children, like we are helping our white Children so much too when we do this work and model it so that they don't have to unlearn all the things that we as adults are currently unlearning. Right. Right. Right. Unlearning is difficult work. Oh, yeah. And, and you know, unfortunately it's, it's become to be expected. So, um, I had some students that were sent down, I think this is last year because they were wearing do rags and um, some students were wearing bonnets and so they got sent down. We don't, we don't allow wear hats, you can't wear hats or hoods as part of the dress code. And so I brought them in to the office and now not only is it with the assistant principal and the dean of students photos with me because I told him, I said no, no, no, bring him in. I want to talk to him. And so now they come in and hindsight's always 2020. I, I, if I was 16 years old and I walked in with the principal and the two assistant principals because they want to talk to me and be like, oh, it's over, you know. 00:38:25 But, um, I asked him, I said, so talk to me about why you wear your do rack. And they kind of looked at me and neither would I want to say anything. And I said no, seriously. So talk to me why I'm not, you're not in trouble or, and I had to convince them that they weren't in trouble and then I just had an honest conversation with them about why they were wearing their do rag. Um And so they talked to me about it and then the dean of students and myself, we did a bunch of research on do rags and bonnets and the cultural significance and where they originate from. And so that week, the next week, um students were allowed to wear do rags and bonnets because it was, it, it was something we were doing that was racist that we didn't even realize really it was racist because we were treating them the same. And that's where you run into these, these hidden. And I'm using air quotes for the listeners, these hidden racist policies where you're doing it in the name of equality. Well, equality is not the same as equity. And until people understand that especially when it comes to race or gender or religion, this isn't gonna get fixed. 00:39:32 And I know I'm saying this isn't gonna get fixed a lot, but it's, it's a, it's a lot of work and So then, you know, the next thing was, well, if they can wear Durex, why can't we still wear hats? So, you know what, just get rid of the whole thing? Like, really? Who, why are we even talking about this? Um, so it, it's, it's interesting when you take those little steps that those are some of the, like I said, planting the seed, they fully expected to get in trouble, especially now the principal wants to talk to us. Um They fully expect to get in trouble then they weren't. And so they went out and talked to their friends and then some um white students probably I, so I lifted the hats much later than the do rags and the bonnets. But um, and I much later I say like two months after that because I had to get it through and I mean, the handbook. But um I had two students, two white students each wearing a do rag at a lunchroom table and a student went over and said something to them and then came over, came up to me, asked for a meeting with me, came and sat down with me, student of color and said, you know, Doctor Jones, that's cultural appropriation. 00:40:42 And uh I, I was really upset that they were wearing do rags and when I went and asked them why they said they were look, they were wearing them to look more intimidating. And so I said, ok, so now that's a discussion with the two students that are doing that. I thank the student for bringing it up to me. But so then after that, we didn't see any more white kids wearing do rags. So it's, it's just those little things that we have to make sure we address like you were talking earlier and I still want, you were saying something so good. I didn't want to jump in on it. I was saying the idea of you have to not just watch your language, but you have to speak up when you hear the language that isn't appropriate and you have to not in a mean way, in a very polite respectable way. You just have to call it out because that person will. Right. Well, there's two things that person might not realize it and might be using something that they've heard before or that person might realize it and that's a whole different story and then you take it from there. 00:41:47 But quite often that person when it's called out like that is not gonna double down with another inappropriate comment. But if anything they're gonna think to themselves that you're someone that is gonna call it out. So now they either they stay away from you and the circle that you're around which, ok, you've made a little splash in the pond or they're gonna have a conversation with you about it and they're gonna reflect on it and not do it anymore. Oh my gosh. So much of what I loved in this conversation is that you give so many concrete examples that I think people can connect with or that exemplify like how you lead, which is just amazing. Like I think about how many students and people are watching, not maybe like in the actual room with you, but like watching the conversation that you're having with each of these like individuals around just the the policy around headwear, right? Like, so you had the initial conversation with the people who might be getting in trouble and like, oh OK, now we're gonna change the policy. OK? Now you're, now you're having the conversation with the kid who's like, hey, these white kids are wearing do like this is not cool and then you're having a conversation with the white kids. Like people see that you're having the conversations and just a testament to that I think is the student of color who came to you and said like I, hey, there's a problem here like just that level of comfort to be able to say I can go to him and I can talk to him and I'm gonna tell him like and I'm going to be received, I'm gonna be heard like so powerful and then all of the white kids and the white staff members, either members of your leadership team, teachers or whatever who are seeing you like con confront us, right? 00:43:14 To then have the conversation with the white students, right? And like, so it's not even kind of like a we don't want these white kids to do it. But like, it's also a, here's how you lead in this situation, right? It's like, here's what we do, we confront it and whether or not that conversation went like, in 100% perfectly or I would have said this differently, whatever, it's like we are willing to have the conversation. And the impact is that people see that conversation is happening. Like I just, I, I feel like throughout these, you're offering these beautiful jams and I just want to highlight for the listeners like the practices that are happening, you know, and, and it's, it's progress, not perfection if people are like, oh, well, I couldn't, I don't know what he said in that conversation. So therefore, I can't have that conversation because it wouldn't go well. Like, no, it's the point is that you have the conversation. Right. Right. And, and you know what, those conversations aren't gonna go well. And one of the things and this, this takes a little aside, but um it is relevant to it, the idea that I don't know what he said in that conversation. So I'm not gonna have that conversation. The slow death by avoidance is you, you will never make progress because so the N word, right. Um It's, we talk about when we're, when we're educating students and we ran into this a lot with masks. 00:44:22 So it was an easy transition because first he had to have the mask and you couldn't have the mask and he had to be 3 ft and he had to be 6 ft and then the mask couldn't be done. It, it was a mess. And then you didn't have to wear a mask outside. And then the only place you had to wear a mask were schools, medical facilities. Yeah. Ok. I'm 15. I'm gonna keep track of this. And then teachers are frustrated because they know they're supposed to be doing the right thing. Then they're reprimanding kids, the relationships fractured all that. It was inconsistent and that was the problem when you boil it down, it was inconsistent. Consistency wins every single time. Whether you're trying to make, whether you're trying to get large goals, you don't do it by massive jumps, leaps bounds, you do it by consistent small steps moving in the right direction. So with the N word, same thing, it's, it's inconsistent because music has the N word all over the place. Um, there, the N word is used outside of school and then you get into the argument of who can use the N word and who can't use the N word. So, what we did is we, we had a conversation with the staff because the staff is very uncomfortable with, with trying to approach that in the hallway. 00:45:32 But that's where you have to approach it when it's used, you can't say I'll talk to you after because then it doesn't have anything to do with it. So, what we did is we just said that word in and of itself is inappropriate in school. We're not saying what you are doing outside. That's, that's up to you. But in this setting much like when you're in different settings, whether it's a career, whether it's a job wherever it is, there are certain things that are inappropriate and, and using the N word is one of them. We're not even gonna get into the argument of hard r soft R A, all that stuff. Um, just know it's not appropriate. So we, we instructed our staff that whenever they hear it, that's all they say. Hey, you know, and I'm just gonna use your name because you're here. Hey, Lindsay. Uh, you know, that's, that's an inappropriate word to use here. We're, we're not gonna use that here. So what that does is it lets everybody else know if that's inappropriate because they call it out when it happens, it happens in the moment and it's not a discussion. We're not opening up for a debate or anything like that. Now, if we know when it's being used in a derogatory way, and so if it's being used in a derogatory way, that's a different, that's a whole different ball of wax. 00:46:39 That's, yeah, Doctor Jones is talking to you in the office, you know, the assistant principals are talking to the office and we're gonna handle that from there. But other than that, we've noticed a drop in the use of that word. Um, so, you know, it's just, it, it's giving teachers and anybody in these situations smaller concrete tools that they can use that are low effort that are low risk because otherwise that word is said and the teacher looks and did I, did, I hear it? Maybe I didn't hear it. Maybe if I was looking the other way, even though they heard it. But that then, and, and everybody does this, you justify it to yourself not to say anything and you let it go by and you know what you do have that kind of that dirty feeling afterwards because you know it was wrong and you didn't act and that runs contrary to human nature. Um But then it goes away and you're onto the next thing and you forget about it and then the next time it happens. Well, what happens now is uh people can say it, you just say it, nobody's really gonna say anything to you and then it increases and it intensifies and then the first thing you get is your actual Racists using the excuse that, well, they use that word. 00:47:49 Why can't wait. So, yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, and I think too if I could add one like kind of additional layer of that is, is for me personally as a white woman who taught primarily students who are not, who is racialized as black or brown or something that a race that is not white. It was really important for me to be able to have like a rationale of sorts, to be able to come in and be the authority or the rule person in my classroom, which to me what felt most aligned to my values and like who I wanted to be in the class that I wanted to have like the sense of belonging, going, going back to that it was um in case there is every student who would personally feel like offended by hearing someone say that like I am going to be the keeper of this space where that is, we are free from using any language that would harm someone else's dignity. So like, I'm not the arbiter of if that's you or not like or who that will be, but just in case like, why would I ever want someone to feel like I'm attacking their dignity or someone else is attacking their dignity? 00:48:53 We just don't want that. So like that's why, you know, like, and it's like a 32nd, like if someone is like, hey, who are you? You know, like Right. Right. We are the keeper of the space. Uh I love, I, that's the one I was gonna highlight keeper of the space. And I like that you said we wouldn't want to do that because I was thinking as we were talking before, you said we wouldn't want to do that. That's on, that's on who wants to hurt somebody else's dignity for no reason. You don't even know these people and maybe you do know the, these people. But really have you known them long enough or if you've been so wrong that you need to hurt their dignity? Uh, it just doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's the line. It's like we don't violate someone else's dignity. I think that that could go for anything too, right? Academic conversations about pence issues like with the line is dignity, we don't violate other people's rights or dignity like that's, that's it, right? Um I've realized that we went so off script that we have had a beautiful conversation. Thank you for going there with me. Do you have how many questions, by the way? I am so curious to see if there is something that you would either add or synthesize for us if we're kind of envisioning the leader listening, who is like, OK, you guys just gave tons of examples kind of analyze several situations. 00:50:04 I want to be an anti racist leader. I want to support my staff, I want to support my student culture like these things. Like what are the things that I prioritize doing or where do I start? Kind of thing is what I'm thinking? We could kind of synthesize and wrap up or if, or if there's anything you wanna add, feel free. I was, well, at first before you said, um, any where to start and different steps they could take, I was gonna see if I get Nike to sponsor your podcast and say, just do it. But no, the, um, you know, it, it starts really with your values. Um, you know, often we talk about values and we talk about what we believe in and then we don't follow through and we let things happen around us and get ourselves involved in things where we don't speak up for our values and our beliefs. If you truly believe that you, that it is up to you to be the leader, the anti racist leader or the person that works on anti-racism, then you have to do it and you do it first by looking at your values and realizing that no matter what your values are, whenever they enact, interact with making people better, organization better or anything like that, that, that all depends on human beings. 00:51:18 And if we look at everyone as a human being, that's a start because then you need to add the different layers. I think of those old transparency books, the science books, I told you I was a dork. But those old books with the, with the, with the body systems in biology that you put one transparency over. It used to be mesmerized by those things, then you put another one and you put another one and, and it gets thicker and crowded and more complex. Start at the first transparency about what you believe in and the fact that it's tied to, we're all human being, take the next transparency and lay it over that base pitcher and complicate it a little bit. Who can you communicate with, with the understanding that their understanding, their experience as that human being is not the same as yours. And so it complicates things from what you're experiencing and then flip the next transparency and look at the institution that you're in charge of the institution that you're part of. 00:52:22 We look at what policies are in place and how that complicates things based on people's race, people's ethnicity, people's gender, how they identify um and just keep flipping the transparencies because all that communication has to be based on the understanding that you don't have an understanding of what they've lived and the past traumas that they've experienced, that's how you start. And you have to, you have to have those conversations by pulling people in and you can't do it by pulling in. Somebody's looking like yourself and saying, so how do we fix this? No, you gotta pull in the people that you're trying to reach out to and make it a better existence for them. Oh my gosh. Yes. And I think we can actually tie this back to curriculum, which was the initial thread we could do this in a class where you were analyzing a primary source document, right? Like do the transparency, like what values are at play here? Like let's layer on the identities like hm, we got it, we came back. 00:53:27 That's so that's so important in history or in or in anything where you're reading but like you think of primary resource documents. OK. Well, that document was written by somebody hence primary resource. Who was it written by? What were the times like, why did they write it? Can we just be honest, you know, what lens were they writing it from where they, you know, you, you talk about different documents. Um I don't think you had non-white people in a lot of the documents that we, we analyze living that experience writing these documents because if we did II, I dare say some of those documents might have been different. I don't know, maybe going on, on a limb. But I just the, the idea that if we could, if we could all come together be less defensive and start that practice by trying to understand rather than thinking we already do understand because we don't. Um And when you have those conversations, some of those conversations will shock you. Some of those conversations will be rude. Some of those con you, you won't have those conversations because you won't like some of the conversations that you have and it is uncomfortable and you don't have the answer. 00:54:36 But that's when you know, you're getting the real stuff. If you sit down, you have a conversation with a person, um who is part of a minority group based on color, gender identity. Um Anything like that, if you're comfortable, you're not getting the truth. If you're uncomfortable, that's a good thing. And you just need to learn to lean into it because as much as you might not, might not like it, you're getting the true pitcher and then you can go back and I like to do this anyways as a leader with everything in general. Um When somebody disagrees with me, I like it when people disagree with me and I kind of like it a little when they're negative, which is weird. But um I kind of like it when they disagree with me and they're negative because I sit back and I think to myself. OK, what if they're right? That's gotta come from somewhere and then that's when I can search in, I can turn negative people positive. I can turn um programs initiatives into better things. I can make it a more equitable system and structure for everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion, anything. 00:55:50 Oh What a beautiful way to end. I am going to ask you one more question. I know we've been talking for like an hour, but I want people to be able to check out your podcast and connect with you. So can you just share for people where they can connect with you where they can follow you on social, what your podcast is all about. You know, I could ask these things that I always draw blank. The first thing I would say is my podcast is seen to lead, you can find it on any um any podcast platform that you listen to. I really subscribe and give me feedback. I, I love it. And most importantly, as soon as you listen and subscribe, make sure you catch Lindsay's episode because you were absolutely fantastic on my podcast. So, um the podcast is seen to lead anywhere you listen to podcasts and it actually publishes to my youtube channel as well, which is Doctor CS Jones. Um Twitter is at Doctor CS Jones, Instagram, Doctor Ce S Jones. It's, it's all Doctor CS Jones if you want. I, I also um I respond to emails, reach out and email me that's at uh doctor, which is I say, I keep saying doctors Dr um but the gmail address is Doctor Chris SJ uh at gmail dot com. 00:57:00 But hey, reach out. Um I'd, I'd be happy to talk to anybody, especially in this journey. And uh like I said, make sure you listen to Lindsay's episode first on scene to lead. And uh, oh, I also have a book out too that's uh by the same name scene to lead. Almost forgot the book. Amazing. And we'll drop links to all that in the show notes. Oh, my gosh, Doctor Jones. This was so nice to have you on. Thank you for this beautiful conversation. No, thank you Lindsey. I really appreciate it. If you're leaving this episode wanting more, you're going to love my life coaching intensive curriculum, boot camp. I help one department or grade team create feminist anti racist curricula that challenges affirms and inspires all students. We weave current events into course content and amplify student voices which skyrockets engagement and academic achievement. It energizes educators feeling burns out and it's just two days. Plus you can reuse the same process any time you create a new unit which saves time and money. If you can't wait to bring this to your staff, I'm inviting you to sign up for a 20 minute call with me. Grab a spot on my calendar at www dot Lindsay beth lions dot com slash contact. 00:58:06 Until next time leaders continue to think Big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the teach better podcast network. Better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better dot com slash podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
March 2025
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