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In this episode, we talk with acclaimed author and educator, James Nottingham. His recent book, Teach Brilliantly, explores what will make a dramatic difference to students’ learning with small tweaks all educators can put into practice.
Drawing on years of both classroom experience and hands-on research and writing resources for educators, James brings our focus onto what’s most impactful for students. He emphasizes a shift from traditional questioning to fostering exploration to enhance student engagement. James highlights the importance of embracing challenges through concepts like the Learning Pit model, which encourages students to step out of their comfort zones and develop growth mindsets. The Big Dream James envisions an educational landscape that works for all students. Drawing from his personal—albeit mostly negative—experiences as a student, James envisions a system where all students can thrive, not just the select few. In this, his core focus is how do we make those small tweaks that make a significant difference to reach students who aren’t typically served by the current system. Mindset Shifts Required To create an education system that works for all students, educators can embrace the mindset shift away from managing student behavior to nurturing genuine curiosity and deep thinking. A key part of this is engagement—how do we engage a student body that is more distracted than any other generation? In James’ perspective, the answer is not “engaging” by controlling behaviors, but about engagement as thinking, embracing questions, and encouraging curiosity. Action Steps To engage students in thinking and create open, curious classrooms, here are a few practical steps that James suggests educators implement in their classrooms: Step 1: Swap exploration for evaluation. James shares the typical questioning process as initiation by the teacher > response by the students > evaluation by the teacher. That last piece of evaluation is usually limited to “good” and “bad,” which dis-engages students. Instead, by using a tool like a mini whiteboard, educators can ask students to explore by writing down their ideas and showing them. The teacher can then evaluate those responses privately, allowing them to come up with the appropriate follow-up questions. Step 2: Embrace exploration in dialogue. Similar to questioning, exploration is important in dialogue and conversation in the classroom. Encourage students to not rush through tasks, but use phrases like, “Yes, but what about…” or “Could you give me an example of that?” Remind students that they’re not responsible for agreeing with each other, there’s room for conversation and exploratory talk. Step 3: Introduce the Learning Pit model to help students understand and embrace the challenges of learning. James created this model in the mid-90s, and it has been influential since then. When introducing it to new students, he would explain that success is not straightforward, but takes time, effort, determination, etc., and we must go through challenges and get outside our comfort zones to get to success. The learning pit, then, is the place you are in when you take “two steps forward, one step back.” For a time, you may be “worse,” but that is the progress of learning. When you’re in the learning pit, it gets worse before it gets better and you have a choice to either quit or figure out how to get out—which always brings a sense of accomplishment and growth. This concept guides students through the discomfort of growth and towards self-efficacy. One Step to Get Started Begin by exploring James’ different practical tips and tweaks for your classroom and choose one to try out. You don’t have to do everything to start, but can begin with what resonates and what may make the biggest difference to your teaching practice now. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on his website, Learning Pit, or grab a copy of James’ book, Teach Brilliantly. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing graphics to make your own learning pit with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 233 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) James, welcome to the time for teachership podcast it's an absolute delight to join you. 00:08 - James Nottingham (Guest) Thank you for the invitation. 00:09 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I'm really, really thrilled about your book, so I have it here teach brilliantly. It's so good. Um, I think, knowing that that's kind of the context for our conversation today, is there anything you want listeners to kind of know about the book in general or about your work yourself, as we jump into our conversation today? 00:27 - James Nottingham (Guest) It's my 12th book. My first book was called Challenging Learning and I published that in 2010. And back then it was a collection of the key ideas that I'd come across as a teacher that helped me to get the most learning out of my students, the best progress for my students, and so I shared those ideas back then. After that, I took one topic per book and went deeply into it. So, for example, feedback or growth mindset or the learning pit, which is a model that I created. I took one theme and go and went deeply. Then this 12th book is, in effect, full circle and back to okay, if I had an elevator moment now, it's a very, very, very long elevator If you're going to cover everything that I've covered in the book, but it's if you want to know what will make a dramatic difference to students' learning, with little tweaks, not wholesale change, not huge great big projects, but just small, little tweaks that I can put into practice, that you can put into practice the very next time we're in the classroom with our students. Then that's what it's all about, and I've spent 30-something years in teaching. 01:59 I still teach to this day. I work with researchers such as Carol Dweck, such as John Hattie I and spent a lot of time with both of those on tour for many years. So I look at research, I look at practice. I'm always focused on okay, yes, but how does this translate into our teaching practice, into our classrooms? And one of the things I do a lot is demonstration lessons. Give me any students, any class of kids, so long as they're happy to speak English with me, then I'll work with them and I'll demonstrate any of these techniques working with your students, and then we can talk about it afterwards. So that's my focus really is how do we tweak things a little bit such that it has a big impact on our student learning? 02:48 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That blend of researcher and practitioner is so present in the book, the distillation of all of the meta-analyses, all of the research it is so beautifully written about. And also you don't ever feel like as a reader, I never felt that you weren't in it. You know that you weren't in front of classrooms all the time thinking about the practicalities and it just comes through so beautifully. So I really appreciate that, because sometimes we lean really far into one or the other, and it was, it was a beautiful blend. So thank you. 03:18 - James Nottingham (Guest) No, thank you for saying that. Actually, when one of my books was the first one to be translated into Norwegian I do a lot of work in Scandinavia and they really struggled to place it because they said we have the academic research books and we have the practical, nice little planning books, but we don't have this thing in the middle. And they struggled to find the voice with it and they went for the third person in the end and I said no, no, I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me. This is me talking to my colleagues. Um, and albeit I might not have met these colleagues, we're all colleagues in the teaching profession and that's what I want it to be. And this is what I've learned by hanging out with researchers and this is what I've learned by hanging out in the classroom for that long. And here you go, dear colleague, this is what I've learned by hanging out in the classroom for that long. 04:11 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) And here you go, dear colleague, this is what I found out. Yeah, I absolutely loved that tone. I felt like I was, you know, I was in there with you, I think, taking kind of a big step back from the book and just thinking broadly across your years of experience. I like to ask about freedom, dreaming. So Dr Bettina Love talks about this as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, and so I'm curious what is that big dream that you hold for the field of education? 04:38 - James Nottingham (Guest) Let's start with a small question, shall we Goodness me Right in in there? What's the meaning of life? Well, here we go. Yeah, okay, so can I just have another sip of coffee? Absolutely, yeah, well, I think, um, I do feel as if I'm on a bit of a mission. 05:00 Um, I hated school myself as a student. You probably tell from my accent. I'm from the UK and we have a system primary and secondary or primary and high school and we switch at the age of 11. And so I went from a small little primary school with a couple of hundred students to to me, it was a big high school with a couple of thousand students to, to me, it was a big high school with a couple of thousand students. I know, if you're listening from Texas, you just think that's tiny little thing. But 2,000 to me was a lot. 05:33 And two months after I started high school, my mother died and I, and then my, my father, was sent off to the Falklands War, which was a bit of a skirmish between the UK and Argentina at the time, and so my sister was farmed off to some neighbors and I was home alone and, funnily enough, I acted up at school. I suppose pop psychology would be. I was looking for a bit of attention, you know. I suppose pop psychology would be. I was looking for a bit of attention, you know. And as so often happens, my peer group labelled me the class clown and my teachers labelled me as naughty. And I kind of lived to both of those labels and played up to them. And I got expelled from one of the high schools actually, and I went to another one. And high schools actually that I and I went to another one, and so it got worse and worse and worse. And the very best day of my childhood was the day I left school, you know. So I didn't think for a moment that I would ever want to go back, um, but um, I didn't have any qualifications, so I ended up going into pig farming, turns out. That's quite a hard job and I'm not cut out for that. And then I went into a chemical factory. That was even worse. 06:53 And then a friend of mine said he was going to Cape Town to do some work in some of the squatter camps outside of Cape Town, and this was the very, very end of apartheid. This was 1989. And in fact we were outside Victor Vestaire prison in February 1990 when Nelson Mandela was released. So it was quite a time of it, and when we were there we did lots and lots of different voluntary jobs, and one was in a school and I found my place. I thought this is amazing, I want to be there, I want to work with kids. 07:34 And when I got back to the UK, I got a job as a teaching assistant in a school for deaf children and loved it and thought that's what I'd be doing forevermore. But then it was every head of faculty was a Catholic nun. I think they probably saw the 666 on the back of my head and they said look, james, you should really leave. Oh, thanks very much. I thought I was doing a good job and they said well, you are, but we think you should be a teacher. 08:01 And so I went into teaching with that sense that teaching education does work for many. Problem is it doesn't work for all. When I think about my friends, a lot of them did well at school and they had the same teachers and they're in the same school. So why did it work for them and it didn't work for me? And so I I realised that if we started with a clean slate, we would build something very different these days for education than exists today, but I'm not so pessimistic as to think that this is entirely broken. And therefore, what can we do? And what's the point? It's like trying to put up a tent in in a hurricane. You know why bother? Well, actually, it does work very well for a lot of students. 08:55 Problem is, it doesn't work for all, and so my focus is how do we, as I tweak things a little bit to make a significant difference to all of our students? 09:08 And we were talking before we started recording about that idea of equity and one of the things that I found when going through the meta-analyses again and again and again, I see this message that this works for all students, and particularly for vulnerable students or bilingual students or at risk students or those who come from poverty, and so so these are the things that there are things we can do. Now, of course, there's a lot of things outside of our power that we can't do, but as a teacher, we have got a tremendous influence on young people and we ought to use that for good, and I believe that there are things we can do that will make a difference, and that's what I've been pursuing. That's, that's, that's really. Let's make it a better educational experience than the one I mean. I don't want to put it on a website, make it better than it was for James Nottingham. No, it's just let's make it better for as many students as we possibly can sharing your life story and your goal. 10:22 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I'm really really grateful to you for your vulnerability, both in the book and on here, in sharing your story, because I think, as you said in the book, you know, stories are what we remember and we connect to, and so when we're teaching, you know, remember that. But this is also kind of an illumination of that principle. It's just like people, listeners and folks who are engaging with episode will engage. So thank you for that and let's dive into some pieces of that book. So I love that you start with engagement as one of the first kind of meaty chapters and you think about kind of this idea of exploratory talk was really, really interesting to me. So I'm curious if you could talk to us a little bit about, you know, engagement, but specifically even the exploratory talk what is it, what is it different from? And then maybe we can get into some of the strategies for thinking in that chapter which I really got excited about. 11:11 - James Nottingham (Guest) So engagement? I think often we we talk about engagement that students aren't engaged. They're not as engaged as they used to be, and I think that is probably correct. Albeit, every generation, I think, complains about the next generation, and we've all done it, and our parents complained about it, and our grandparents, and so on, so on, so on. I'm sure everybody's always complained about the youth of today. But I do think it's right that we are facing a student body who have so many more distractions than they ever had before. And how on earth do we engage them? I worry that engagement is often sort of morphed into behavior. How do we get them to behave? And of course we need them to behave. 12:02 But I think that's a different category altogether, because engagement is whatever you are thinking about. So, those of you listening to this podcast, if your mind is drifted, then you're no longer engaged. If you're thinking, where am I driving, or what am I having for tea tonight, or you know you, all of a sudden, you're not engaged tonight. Or you know you, all of a sudden, you're not engaged. You, um lindsay, you mentioned that you, you're a voracious reader. Let's say you sit in a cafe and you're reading. Everybody around you if they glanced over at you, they would assume that you were engaged in that book. 12:38 But let's say, as you are reading, your mind drifts someone, someone says something else. You give the impression of engaging, but actually you engage in something entirely different, and so my premise is engagement is thinking. Now I also have strategies for helping kids to behave. But if we're talking engagement, engagement is thinking, then that leads to the next bit how are we better able to engage students thinking? And that's through. The number one strategy, of course, is questioning, and, as you'll have seen, I went into questioning quite a lot because we use questioning all the time, and early estimates had it at between 300 and 400 questions per day. More recent ones are between 100 and 350 per day. 13:29 But it's still a lot of questions we're asking every single day. I mean, no wonder we go home and say don't talk to me. And the problem is the questioning style that we tend to use is initiate, respond, evaluate. That is, I ask a question, that's initiate. I give a nod, I give a gesture, I ask a question. That's initiate. Response is students give something back and that's fine. 13:57 But the last bit, evaluate. That's where it goes wrong, because we typically say very good, well done or no, that's not right. Goes wrong because we typically say very good, well done or no, that's not right. And since students work out very quickly, okay, there's going to be public evaluation here. It tends to reduce engagement to one third because students start to think only say something if you know, you've got the right answer. Now, of course, if you're talking kindergarten, they're all just shouting out anyway, you know. But I'm talking about the older kids. The older they get, the more judicious they are in their decision-making and the more likely they are to think now, have I absolutely got it right? Even if I have got it right, is it the right thing to say, because people might make fun of me this culture in this classroom is not conducive to being willing, and so on and so on. There's all that sort of stuff going on in their head, and so the evaluative approach, even as simple as yes, very good, well done leads us to lose engagement of students. It actually reduces it to one third. 15:09 If and here's one of those an example of a tweak if we change it from evaluation to exploration, then the evidence is that lifts it to two thirds. Now it's still not perfect, but I have yet to come across a perfect pedagogical strategy, but two-thirds, of course you think all right, all right, there's a good starting point for me. And exploration means I don't evaluate publicly. Now, privately, I'm still thinking where in the hell did you get that idea from? But I'm not giving any of that away, I'm just oh, that's interesting, can you tell me more? And I piece that together with mini whiteboards. I mean that's a a strategy that you'll have seen come very strongly through the book, that I honestly truly haven't come across a piece of equipment in a classroom that makes as big a difference as a mini whiteboard. Because if I go for hands up, I might get, let's say, one third of the kids volunteering, maybe, maybe half, if I'm really really, really lucky, if I go for cold calling, okay, you at at the back, you at the front okay, then I get different kids. 16:30 But if I go for mini whiteboards and use the language to go with it and it needs to be exploratory what do you think it might be? Put down, some of your one or two of your ideas? Stare with your neighbor and then, together, put down a thought, work this out on your whiteboards and, when you're ready, show me. And that tends to get way, way, way more responses. And now what I can do? 16:58 I can look around and I'm privately evaluating because I'm thinking, okay, yeah, most of them have got this, a few haven't. I wonder why those few haven't. Is it that they are rabbits in the headlights? Is it because they weren't listening? Is it because they were just all over? Or is it that they actually really don't know? So I need to maybe ask another question to check it out. 17:20 So I'm doing lots of evaluation, but it's not public, no-transcript. I need to ask questions that will find out their reasoning for that, because it might be they just got lucky, it might be that they saw it on the wall, it might be that they've just been told it by a different teacher. I want to know is it that or is it that they knew it because they thought about it, because they'd reasoned and so and so the exploratory approach is very, very, um, much more productive. It leads to much better gains and I saw this in the research and I thought, well, let me try it in practice. And honestly, I just think it's transformed my teaching practice. It really, really has. I mean, to start with, the kids were like well, why isn't he telling us? Well, what's wrong with him? Why is he grumpy? Today I had to say listen, when I don't respond, it's not because I'm not interested, it's because I'm thinking about it and wondering and seeing what else we can ask to find out more. So that's exploratory in terms of questioning. And then there's exploratory in terms of dialogue. 18:52 And one of the things that I like to do with a new group of students is when you get them into groups, and we typically do get them into groups at different times. Problem is, most kids haven't learned how to collaborate very effectively, and so I will give them a task to do, and partway through the task, most often they've kind of rushed to get it done, and I'll pause them and I say now if you have finished or pretty much finished? If you have finished or pretty much finished, I'm sorry to say you've probably been using cumulative talk. And what I mean by cumulative talk is somebody says something and somebody else says, oh yes, very good, that's nice. And then somebody adds to it and it's all very lovely and it's all very friendly, but it doesn't lead to much critical thinking. And I want you to engage in critical thinking. 19:46 Now, of course, if I'm working with younger students, I adapt the language a bit. I might say something like it's not your job to agree with each other. Now, that's not to say I want you to have a fight or an argument, but it is your job to help each other to think more. And by that I mean I want you to use phrases such as ah, yes, but what about? Or could it be? Or could you give me an example of that? Or I was wondering about. So it's not dismissing their ideas, and you're certainly going to continue to be respectful and a good listener, certainly going to continue to be respectful and a good listener, but your response ought to be exploring their ideas rather than simply agreeing with their ideas. 20:33 It's a little bit like Goldilocks porridge. There's porridge that's just a little bit too warm and that's cumulative. It's just very, very nice, but there's not a lot of thinking, it's just about being nice and getting the job done. Then there's porridge that's just a little bit too cold, that's disputational and that's ego-driven and it's point scoring and who can be the wittiest or the cleverest? And then there's porridge that's just right and that's exploratory talk. And again, the research bears this out. And so I thought okay, let me try it. And I've been developing it more and more and more with my students, and goodness me what a difference it makes in terms of the depth of their thinking. 21:16 Now we have to also be willing for some groups not to finish quote-unquote, because all too often in lessons, as we well know, it's about industry, it's about getting the job done, and if I might bounce for my final response to that question is a bounce to the difference between setting high expectations and setting low expectations. Between setting high expectations and setting low expectations, a classic symptom of low expectations is make sure you finish your work, whereas a classic symptom of high expectations is make sure you understand this. That's a big difference, isn't it? Now, of course, in the high expectations. They're still going to be doing things, but the emphasis is on am I remembering it, am I understanding it, am I connecting it? What questions do I have? Whereas with low expectations is have I finished? 22:21 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, I love the almost like permission that you're granting to students when you're like yeah, no, agreeing is actually not super helpful to anyone. Your job is to ask questions and to push your thinking and to think more. I just, I think as a student, I am definitely like a people pleaser, I think, and it would have been so nice for a teacher to be like no, actually that's not your job. I am a rule follower, so I would have listened to that. Right, ok, I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to push back. I think a lot of students, particularly the students who succeed in traditional school, like just try to like okay, check done. You're right, like you said, low expectations actually to just finish the work, and it's such a push to be like no, I want you to explore that more and so many people are unfamiliar with it, but I mean, I was a former high school teacher that you've done school this particular way for so long. 23:08 To kind of unlearn takes some time, but how worth it would it be to do that? 23:13 - James Nottingham (Guest) It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, I did a demonstration lesson south side of Chicago. It would be less than two years after Covid began, because we're all still wearing masks and you probably have no problem understanding the accent. But I'm thinking, what on earth are these kids saying? And they had masks on as well and I'm like blinking, eh. 23:36 And it was in grade nine class and I was getting them doing some collaborative work and I'm thinking, do I just let them get on with it and then pretend that I understand what they're saying when I don't? But anyway, there was that classic thing of a few groups just kind of got it done. And even more classic was that it was typically one kid did it and the other two, three, four kids just kind of went along with it. And so I introduced what I've just shared with you and I use those three terms as cumulative there's disputation and there's exploratory, and I linked it to Goldilocks Porridge and so on. And they were nodding. Well, I think they were nodding Maybe they're nodding off, but they seem like they're interested and I said, right, have another go and this time be more exploratory. 24:30 And it's funny because one of the guys who is obviously a very dominant character in the class generally, and he was definitely leading his group. He says, well, I think we've all been very cumulative, haven't we? Of course, they all agreed with him in a cumulative way. And he says let's be more exploratory. But and I thought, isn't he just like being sarcastic here? But actually he was being genuine in it and it really did lead to because he says, right, I'm going to stop now. What do you think? You know? Come back at me, right, what questions do we have for her? What questions could we ask of him? And that I I thought isn't that fascinating in, and it was just a 40 minute lesson and that pivot that was so noticeable. Yeah, it was lovely that's brilliant. 25:17 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I I love that story. Thank you for sharing that because I could envision that in many of the classes that I taught, if I had just had the language they'd be like oh yeah, and I love the strategies. 25:24 - James Nottingham (Guest) I'm looking at my notes here. You have so many and folks should get the of the classes that I taught. 25:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) If I had just had the language, they'd be like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love the strategies. I'm looking at my notes here. You have so many and folks should get the book and truly explore them. But kind of like the sense of ranking, like the inner researcher in me is like thinking of like a QSort or something no-transcript, and I love the question section. But beyond even just asking the verbal question is like here's some stuff, here's some concepts, here's some terms Like play with that, explore that. It's really cool and totally would rework, I think, how a lot of teachers plan their lessons in a positive way. 26:15 - James Nottingham (Guest) Yeah, yeah, there's lots and lots of strategies that I've come across. There's one or two in the book that I've invented, so to speak, but most of them are just brilliant practical strategies that I've come across, so to speak. But most of them are just brilliant practical strategies that have come across in teaching in different countries. And you mentioned ranking. I mean it's just a lovely, lovely, lovely strategy, you know. So a good example I was working with a district in Wyoming a few months ago and I mean I work a lot in Australia and I thought Australia had some remote areas. This place in Wyoming, it took four hours to drive in a straight line from Salt Lake City and for the last three hours there was no mobile phone reception at all and I passed like three cards in three hours, you know, and there was just cows everywhere. I was just like where on earth am I? Anyway, I got there and I did this ranking thing. I said, right, okay, in groups, could you get a piece of paper, rip it up into nine little slips. On each slip of paper will you write a job or a profession. And they did that and I said now rank them. And the classic thing that students do kind of well, you can't rank them. But many groups said, yeah, fine, let's get on with it. And they ranked them. You know, and of course, being in Wyoming, it was like the life or death. You know, who do you rely on for life? And, of course, who do you rely on for life? And of course, guess what? Cowboy was at number one, you know, and teacher was at the bottom. But anyway, there was this and I said, okay, if you've, and I only gave them a few minutes and then I paused them and I did what I mentioned a few moments ago, that okay, if you have managed to rank them, I would gently suggest you've been involved in cumulative talk, which means da-da-da-da-da. Now I want you to get into exploratory talk. The energy in the room changed so much and they started questioning and challenging each other, and so then you do that with children. 28:20 So let's say, in an elementary classroom you get them to think of some characters in a book that they've been reading. I mean, if we stick with a Goldilocks porridge for a minute, you have the three bears and Goldilocks, there's four. And how do you rank them? But you don't tell them how to Say I want you to rank them and they're like, well, how? And I say, well, that's a good question. And they're like, yeah, but can you answer it then? No, I want you to think about it, have a think. What are some of the ways in which you could rank them? Older students might be could still stick with literature for a minute and take Shakespearean characters and rank them, but you don't tell them the criteria for ranking them, because you want them to think about that as well, you know. So it's this permission to think. I think that's what, what the purpose is totally. 29:14 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I, yeah, that's. It's awesome. I love how these illuminate to your. Their last story just really illuminates how multiple strategies and approaches can be kind of combined. They they're like very cumulative right. You create this class culture. Now you could do this thing. Now we introduce the idea of exploratory. It's so, so great. I think I'm looking at time like wow, the time has gone by very fast. But I would love to get into this concept of challenge. I mean, you've done so much. The learning pit is classic right in education. So I wonder if you can kind of talk us through kind of that culture of challenge and the learning pit model, if you don't mind, just so we can kind of think about how that plays into the culture that these discussions are happening in. 29:52 - James Nottingham (Guest) Ideally, Sure, yeah. So I created the learning pit in the mid-90s and it's probably worth me sharing with you how I introduced it to a new group of students, and these are the sorts of messages that I give them. I'm sorry to say that success is not straightforward. I wish it was, but it's not. If it were straightforward, every single one of us would be as successful as we want to be. I would be multilingual, for example, I'd be able to play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix. I can't do any of those. 30:22 Reason is because to become really, really successful, it takes time, it takes effort, determination, it takes good strategy or strategies, it takes some brilliant teaching, it takes a bit of luck. There's all sorts of things that contribute towards becoming more successful. What we do know is the first step, always, always, always. The first step in becoming more successful is to step out of your comfort zone. There's no choice about it, because if you stay in your comfort zone, well, it's nice, it's a nice place to be. It's a bit of a giveaway in the name comfort zone, you know, I like it. But to become more successful, I necessarily have to go beyond where I am right now, and so then, when I step out of my comfort zone, I'm going to encounter a performance dip. That's what psychologists for decades have called it a performance dip. And then I do this with students and it's a good way to illustrate it with students and that is could you all pick up a pen and will you write out your full name? Now will you put your pen in your other hand and write out your full name again and of course there's always a bit of laughter about that and so on. And now show the person next to you your two attempts and hope that they don't laugh at them too much. Did you notice your second attempt looks worse than your first and that's a performance dip, because you've gone from what was comfortable writing with your dominant hand to what was uncomfortable writing with your weaker hand. Did you also notice how much more effort it took, how awkward it felt? 32:08 Those are the sensations associated with learning, and my job as a teacher is actually to create those sensations in the classroom. I don't want you to feel socially uncomfortable, emotionally uncomfortable. I don't want that, but intellectually I want you to be uncomfortable. I want you to feel awkward. I want you to feel like you're putting in loads of effort and it's looking worse at the moment, and that's the key. It's not. It's looking worse full stop. It's looking worse at the moment. 32:43 And then this is when I draw out the learning pit. I say to them typically people talk about success, as you just need to keep taking steps towards where you want to get to, towards your goal, and so that sounds lovely. But more often than not, you take one or two steps and then you get worse before you get better. And I say this to the students I'm going to let you into a secret. When I ask teachers to do exactly what you've just done write with your dominant hand, and then you write with your weaker hand. Their handwriting looks terrible. And then I ask them how many of you are ambidextrous? How many of you can write equally well with both hands? And I promise you this there's normally about one or two teachers in the room, that's it. All the others can't, and everyone who can't is a quitter. They quit. Now, that's not me making fun of them, it's me talking about what is human. We quit with so many things because you just can't do everything, and so what we do is we prioritize. And since we prioritize, what it means is we quit with lots of things and you will find yourself in what I call the learning pit, because I draw it out and it looks like it gets worse before it gets better. 34:03 And when you find yourself in that learning pit, there are two main solutions. Number one is quit, just think it's not worth it. Number two is work out how to get through it. Is it the strategy? Is it the approach? Is it the way you're collaborating? Is it a different question you need to ask Is it a resource that you're missing? Is it some bit of information that you need? Is it that you need some advice from someone? But there are lots and lots and lots of ways to help you through the pit, and my job is to help you to get into the pit, but also to give you advice about things you can do to get out of the pit. 34:44 And now let's get to the good news. The good news is, if you are willing to work through the pit and out the other side, I promise you you will feel so much more accomplished than if you'd given up. We all do that, all of us. We quit, it's quick, but if we persevere and go through and out the other side, we know that sensation of feeling so good about ourselves because we think I figured it out, I did it, I persevered and I got here. And that's what makes it worthwhile. And then, when you get out of the pit, you think to yourself I figured it out. And since I figured it out this time, I bet you I can figure it out again and again, and again and again. And, incidentally, that notion of I can figure it out is self-efficacy, that belief that I can influence things. And so the idea of challenge is we have to create this sense in our classroom, that challenge is a good thing in a learning situation. Now, challenge crossing the road is not a good thing, but challenge in the classroom is a good thing and it's what helps us to grow. And we have to learn how to get through this pit and out the other side. And it's about I think the final thing worth mentioning is it's about the purpose. It's the purpose is to improve. 36:21 You see, the next time you get on a flight, what would you think if the pilot says well, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, this is my maiden voyage, but listen, we all have to learn sometimes. So if you wouldn't mind, please buckle up. It's going to be somewhat of a bumpy ride. I suppose all of us would be like, can we get off, please? Because what we want is that pilot to have done so many, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of training hours that she or he could land the plane upside down on the hudson river. You know, we want them to be that expert such that they find flying the plane easy. So when I'm on the plane with them, when they have got passengers, don't take risks, just perform brilliantly. But please, please, please. At pilot school and in your professional learning, please, please, please, go on those simulators, try lots of things, work it out. What, if? What about? Could we? And that's what schooling ought to be like. 37:24 It's not performing, it's the learning phase, and so that we're ready to perform in exams or on the sports field, or in the on the stage, or playing in the band or something you know, it's rehearsals, ready for performance, and it's we really, really, really need our students to be much, much more willing to go for challenge in the learning situation. Not the crossing the road situation, but the learning situation. That's the key to it. And what I worry about is there is a meta-analysis that I share in the book covering 42 studies that show when we give kids choice, they learn less. They learn less when given choice, not because choice is a bad thing, but because most kids, when given choice, pick the easier option. 38:15 Not because they're lazy, but because they think that's what we want them to do, because they have noticed that when they get things right, we praise them and we say very good, well done, and when they don't get things right, we say try harder. Well, what we want them to think is we encourage them to be out of their comfort zone, or what I call in the learning pit, and I need to adjust my praise for that. So if they find something straightforward and easy, I need to say well, you find it really easy, let's make it more interesting. If they are struggling, that's when I need to give them loads of praise. You do brilliantly. I'm so impressed that you're keeping going with this, that look of determination, how about? And then you offer them a strategy or an idea. I've got to make challenge much, much, much more a common feature of the classroom, much, much more a common feature of the classroom. 39:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought up the choice piece around challenge, cause I'm all about my, my background is in student voice and I'm like, yeah, let's co-create as much as possible, and that's exactly it. It's like it's not inherently bad. It is the choice that they're making is because of this culture of schooling that we've we've done, so I love the praise adjustment as the kind of a response to that, and I'm also looking at time, so I'll wrap up here, but I want to just name the 80-20 split, which I think was a really good one too, that you named right, it's like they can't be in challenge mode 100% of the time. 39:39 Right, it's about 20%, that is ideal for 80% successful, so that was a new learning for me that I really appreciate Okay good, good, good, good. 39:48 - James Nottingham (Guest) And it's the purpose. Where are we now? I don't want them to feel challenged in an exam hall or on the stage or in an interview. I want them to think this is my time to shine, to show what I'm capable of, to show what I've learned. But in the classroom I want them to be out of their comfort zone. I want them to be exploring and wondering and making mistakes and then learning from those mistakes, because that's the learning part. 40:18 Ready for the performance, let the pilots make all the mistakes in the world on the simulators and then perform brilliantly. You know, that's what we're trying to do with our kids. And if the pilots are like, oh no, I just want to show you how brilliant I am at landing the plane on the simulator, well, what are they learning from that? And yet when we see kids do things like that, so often we praise them and we say very good, well done. I'm thinking, for goodness sake, if it's the learning situation, they need to be out of their comfort zone. If they're in the performance situation, then let's see what they're capable of absolutely. 40:58 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love your, um, your adjustment to, uh, putting up work as like, don't put up the final product, put up like the butterfly. Example of like. Here is the stages of the drawing. Here is the progress that I made. It's such a bigger thing to celebrate that than like. What did the final work look like? 41:13 - James Nottingham (Guest) Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, don't just put that final pieces of work on the wall. Also put the earlier iterations. Yeah. 41:22 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Love that. All right, a final question from question from you. Well, final two mini, kind of really fast ones, lightning round what's one thing you would encourage listeners to do when they end the episode. So we've talked about a ton of strategies, what might be like a good starter or like the most impactful thing to like do tomorrow um, goodness me, you start and finish with a list of questions. 41:46 - James Nottingham (Guest) Oh yeah, I mean anything that you've heard that you, that interests you, that tickles your fancy really, because we're all at different places in our career and all got different interests and we're all teaching different age groups and different subjects. 41:59 So it's it's really uh, what makes, what do you suppose will make the biggest difference, a to your teaching and therefore B to the students' learning outcomes? Which is why this book Teach Brilliantly is quite an eclectic mix, although I think it hangs together very well, if I might say so. I mean, you know there's a very strong thread going through, but there's lots and lots and lots of things and I don't anticipate that people will read it cover to cover. You're self-excluded from that. I can't believe it that you read it cover to cover. But most of the time it's about dip in and find, ooh, ooh, I'm interested in feedback, or that's interesting about challenge, or that exploratory talk or that questioning, you know, and just pick something that you think, yeah, I can imagine having a go at that, and then say play with it. You know ready, play refine. 42:56 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love it. And then, finally, people are going to get the book, so I'm going to drop a link in the show notes and the blog post for this episode. But also, where do people connect with you? Where's a good place to follow your future work? 43:06 - James Nottingham (Guest) um, so um. Best one is my website, learningpitorg just as it sounds um learningpitorg. Yep, and I'm there um, but teach brilliantly through solution tree, and they've got information about me on the solution tree website as well excellent. 43:25 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) james James, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it. 43:28 - James Nottingham (Guest) It's been a delight, and thanks for those huge questions. I mean, typically I only answer those questions when I've got beer in my hand. But you know, there we are, thank you.
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In this episode, we’re considering processes and supports for addressing interpersonal conflict, repairing harm, and restoring connection. We’ll discuss what restorative conferences are, the research on their impacts, and what steps and tools you can use to implement them well.
What are restorative conferences? After building community, restorative conferences are opportunities to repair the harm done to a member(s) of the community, unpack each individual’s understanding of what happened, how they felt, and their suggestions for repairing the harm. Similar to circle practice, the origins of restorative conversations come from Indigenous nations in what is currently known as the “Americas” and the South Pacific. Why?
You can read more research on restorative practices here. What can I do? Step 1: Understand the components The facilitator—likely you—invites participants including the person(s) who caused harm and the person(s) harmed. Each person can invite an adult or peer for moral support. The facilitator asks questions, one at a time. Each person responds, uninterrupted, speaking from the “I”. A talking piece can be used. Step 2: Prepare the questions you will ask I like these questions:
Step 3: Share or co-create agreements for the conference Here are some example agreements you can use, adapt, or use as a starting point to generate your own:
Step 4: Familiarize yourself and your community with relevant language I like the language of unmet needs, and I use an adaptation of Glasser’s 5 basic needs, which I call BASE: Belonging, Autonomy, Survival, Enjoyment. (You can get a free poster of this acronym for your class/space here.) Step 5: Practice Use the language of unmet needs with students and adults in as many situations as possible (e.g., when conflict arises in school, when discussing conflict in the news or in a book). Invite others to role play restorative conferences based on fictional scenarios. This works well in a restorative practices training environment such as staff Professional Development or a student training for restorative conferencing facilitation or something similar like peer mediation. Final Tip To practice the last two steps above, try this: As many times as you can this week, ask: “What does this person need?” To help you implement restorative conferences in your school or district, I’m sharing my Restorative Conference Companion with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 165 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. TRANSCRIPT 00:00:01 Educational justice coach, Lindsay Lyons, and here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling, and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings if you're a principal assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nering out about core curriculum of students. I made this show for you. Here we go. One more thing. I almost forgot to say, make sure you grab my restorative conference companion, which is a two pager, Google doc that you can use, adapt whatever for free at the blog post for this episode. That's Lindsay Beth lions.com/blog/one 65. Welcome to episode 165 of the time for teacher podcast. I am so excited today to talk about repairing harm with restorative conferences. 00:01:05Edit So I often talk about Circle Practice being my favorite practice of all the instructional practices and community practices more broadly, you can do them with staff with students. But what happens when we have harm that happens in those communities, we need to rebuild and repair that harm that connection. And so a lot of people are into this idea, but they're not sure how to do it. That's what this episode is gonna do. It's gonna walk us through how to do it. All right. So in this episode, we're talking about restorative conferences and really using them to repair harm. So, thinking about what are those processes or supports that we currently have for addressing interpersonal conflict? What processes or language do we have around repairing harm, restoring connection. How do we leverage other existing strategies like circle to maybe repair harm at the class level or the staff level? Uh We'll talk also about what restorative conferences are in this episode, but also research on their impact. So like why would you use this approach specifically when conflict occurs and also what steps and what tools you can use to implement them well in your space, whether that's the classroom space, uh school space, a team space within staff, a district wide space. 00:02:19Edit If you're implementing restorative practices across the board, what does that experience feel like to folks? And what structures are we making common and what principles perhaps are we relying on to serve as kind of the the foundation for whatever personalization can happen in school to school spaces or class to class spaces. So I want you to kind of keep those things in mind as we go through this episode. So the first thing, if anyone is unfamiliar or just needs a clear coherent definition, we wanna make sure everyone's understanding what restorative conferences are and I've heard them called restorative conversations, restorative conferences. I'm sure someone knows better than me, what the differentiator is there. I kind of use them interchangeably, but please feel free to correct me if anyone knows the difference. Um So after building community, I have been trained by the morning site sensor in New York City, that restorative conferences are really the opportunities to repair the harm done to either a member or members, plural of your community. 00:03:25Edit This is an opportunity for all of the individuals involved. And again, I say all of the individuals because this might be something between, you know, one student and another student. So only two folks are involved, but it could also be a student is, I don't know, making a comment or exhibiting behavior that actually disrupts the entire class. And so we need to resolve that conflict and repair that harm, restore that connection class wide. So it might be actually that you have 30 students who are involved in this unpacking of each individual understanding of what happened in that class space and how it impacted their learning. Um So each individual impacted will talk about how they felt or share how they felt and their suggestions for how the harm can be repaired. So this is an important part. I think in the conversation, you're not just saying here's my experience of this and here's how I felt it was bad, right? But where do we go from here? How can the harm be repaired? And I love that it centers often these are students but resort of conferences just to be clear, can happen, adult to adult within a school system. 00:04:28Edit It can also happen student to adults. So there are many stakeholders that could be involved at, at all levels here and those individuals can come up with and can suggest they're really at the forefront of suggesting what happens next. And so they are the ones who decide how the harm can be repaired, which I I absolutely love now similar to circle practice. I want to acknowledge that the origins of restorative conversations and conferencing come from indigenous nations and what is currently known as the Americas and the South Pacific. So specifically the training that I have had draws on these Indigenous Nations practices. And so that's, that's what I'm going to be sharing with you today is my understanding of these practices and just want to acknowledge where that comes from. So let's talk about the why, why restorative conversations conferences? Well, when we have this focus on repairing the harm addressing underlying means that are going unmet and we truly try to restore connection and sensitive belonging. 00:05:33Edit We see improved attendance in students versus more punitive disciplinary measures. We also see an increase in perception of safety and conducting this by those students in the communities that use restorative practices versus punitive disciplinary practices. And for the rest of this list, just know this is kind of a comparison of spaces that do use restorative practices versus those traditional punitive disciplinary practices. When we use restorative practices and specifically conferencing, we reduce exclusionary discipline rates. Specifically, we see that black low income female and students with disabilities. Um these populations are suspended less often than punitive disciplinary environments. It also when we have restorative conferences, democratizes power. So anyone can actually call a restorative conference, you can have a student, call a teacher to justice or to a conference. Um It, it doesn't have a typical top down. It's not that the teacher forces students into this environment. It's an invitation to have a conversation and I have had students call a teacher to justice. I have had students call one another to justice and in conversation. 00:06:37Edit And so I do love that democratization of power that it is now in the hands of the person who is harmed most typically. Um but also a person who has harmed and wants to repair that harm can also call that conference. Um But typically the individual who has been harmed or individuals who have been harmed, they have that power to call the person to justice and have the conversation and say, you know, I, I want to be acknowledged and valued. And I want an opportunity to share my experience of the situation and co create the solution that I need from whoever has harmed me. So I do love that democratization of, of the power dynamic there. I also love this practice because it is universally usable, right? You can use this in any class. Of course, the language is going to be different and maybe you structure the steps a little bit differently. Uh It might be a shorter conversation and it might be that you use different language. I'm gonna talk about unmet needs and things and that might be a little um bar for students who are in maybe like preschool. But I do think you can have the same kind of conversation. It's just that maybe you use different language um and different scaffolds. 00:07:40Edit So you might use something like emojis or facial expressions or something to determine, you know, what is the feeling that I'm having versus a word wall of choose from these words, what feeling you have, right? Things like that. So it is universally usable. And while I have had training and I support training for anyone who wants to do this, I actually think you can um with intention with a little bit of foundational knowledge which you'll have by the end of this episode, to some degree, you could start tomorrow, right? You can, you can make the effort and you can always improve as we always can, but you can make the effort to actually start this practice tomorrow. It is not something that requires, you know, like maybe curriculum development. Um mm months of of practice of honing of all these different moving pieces. It's like a few questions and a few principles and you just get better as you go. And that's again, my understanding of it and my, my experience with that has been this is very user friendly and, and ready to go as long as you understand, the basic underpinnings of it. I also love this because it offers structure. 00:08:44Edit So sometimes we're really eager to have conversations about harm and healing and we're just not sure how to do it well. And I love that this provides a concrete structure for anyone who is interested but really apprehensive because they're just not sure what it actually looks like in practice or, or what the steps should be in practice. I also love this because it decreases the future frequency and this is anecdotal. I, this is just how I've seen this operate. Um But I've witnessed kind of a a decrease in in future frequency of conflict between students when we resolve it in this way versus when one is disciplined. And then we have the tension that escalates and continues. Um I've seen a decrease in the intensity of future conflicts. It's much easier to, for example, bring folks together in a conversation when they've already had one, they're familiar with the process, they understand that it's not, you know, putting them on trial or anything. And, and so that intensity um of of the initial harm is reduced because there's more connection built, more trust and more compassion built within the conferences. But also that the um the duration of kind of the negative impact of the conflict are reduced because there is a clear structure in place that you can just have this restorative conversation. 00:09:57Edit So you don't have to fester and let all of this tension bubble up and really negatively impact the classroom environment or the interpersonal relationships. But instead say, hey, let's move this to this next phase and I'll link to more even more research than that um in the blog post for this episode. That's gonna be Lindsay, Beth lions.com/blog/one 65. So feel free to head there and get some more. OK. Now what are the steps? Let's go through those. So I think step number one is understanding the component. So you wanna make sure that you understand what exactly a short of conferencing is and how it, how it kind of moves. So the facilitator likely this is going to be you whoever is listening and it doesn't matter what your role is, it could be. You're a classroom teacher, you're a para professional, you are a cafeteria worker and and witnessing conflict in the the lunch line. It could be that you are a district administrator um resolving something in your staff, uh whatever it is, anyone can be a facilitator and that includes students and that's a whole other percent probably is is training students for taking on roles like this and facilitating experience like this. 00:11:05Edit But the facilitator is going to invite participants which will include the person or persons who caused harm and the person or people that were harmed. Each of those individuals can also invite an adults or peer if they would like to just for moral support. So this is optional. Many students are just like that feels complicated and I actually just want to resolve this quickly. Um Others are like, yes, absolutely. This feels very stressful for me and I would like to be able to call my mom and see when she can come in, right? So whatever works for you and, and by you, I mean, the individual students or individuals who are in the conference, the facilitator, once you get everyone together is going to ask questions, you're gonna ask them one at a time so that each person can respond uninterrupted. I encourage you to share with them some agreements which we're, we're gonna talk to you in a, in a bit. But one of the big ones is just to speak from the eye. What is my experience, my feeling? Um Not like I think you did X, right? 00:12:08Edit But I experienced frustration, anger, sadness, you know, when, when this happens, um I witnessed uh this happening, right? Like so these are kind of the things that we wanna think about as we're inviting students to converse. It's like, how do we set that stage? Now, one of the supports that you could use as a talking piece. So if students are familiar with circles, what a great way to extend that to this smaller conversation and say just a reminder when you are holding the talking piece, you can speak or share. But when you don't have it, you really wanna make sure that, you know, you're, you're listening actively. Um you are paying attention to whoever is sharing at the time. Now, step two, after you really understand the kind of components of how this works, prepare the questions you're gonna ask. So I'm gonna share some now feel free to use these to adapt them to generate your own. How I was trained was basically uh an arc similar to this one. What happened? So you kind of get the gist from every member involved. Again, they share what their experience of the situation was. 00:13:12Edit So we gotta get clear on what exactly happened. Then how did you each feel? Right? Or if you want to go a little bit deeper and talk about a met knees, like what need did you have in that moment that you weren't able to get? So for the person who did harm, right? Like what was going on for you as well as the person who was harmed? Like why was this so frustrating to you or so harmful to you? Like what was the need that didn't get met for you as this all was happening? Who was affected? Right? So who was affected in terms of you individually? Like how, how you shared how you felt but who else might have been affected? What did you witness? Right. Again, speaking from the eye, um you know, did students come up to you later and share something and then finally, how can the harm be repaired? So really identifying what happened, how did you individually feel who was affected? Like what was the impact of whatever happened? And then how do we move forward, repairing the harm and for the person who caused the harm specifically for that question, you know, what can you do to repair the harm? So really taking on that accountability piece step three after you've prepped the questions in the general structure, I would share with participants or I would core with them either or, you know, feel out the situation and think about the willingness that students have to engage or participants have to engage in the co creation of agreements, but I would have them ready to go. 00:14:33Edit So for the conference, what are the agreements we're going to use? So here's some sample ones that again, feel free to use, adapt, generate your own, only speak if you have the talking piece use I statements, focus on your own experience, your feelings, your unmet needs, listen, deeply, exercise compassion as much as possible and take responsibility for repairing any harm you may have caused. So, thinking again about this idea of we're speaking from the eye, we're listening deeply. It's not just about us. We are sharing our point of view, our, our experience, feelings and needs. We are also really working hard to listen and exercise compassion, right? As well as that accountability piece of course, of of repairing the harm and what can we do to move it forward before I would familiar familiarize yourself with your language that you want to use. So again, that's gonna vary by age. I really like the idea of unmet needs because we all have these core needs and typically a conflict is going to be connected to one of them um in my experience. 00:15:39Edit So I use an adaptation of glasses, five basic needs and I call it base. I've talked about it before on the podcast. I will link in the blog post uh poster that you can get that has these on it in case you're interested in hanging it up in your classroom or space, the base acronym stands for belonging, autonomy, survival and enjoyment. So not only you as an individual want to familiarize yourself with this as a potential facilitator, but you also want people in your community, adults students to be familiar with this as well. So if you ask them in a restorative conference. It's not the first time they've heard what Unmet needs do you have? Right? Like you have something ready to go, you have the poster, perhaps ready to go or some other sort of um visual or support mechanism for providing some language if they're really unsure how to answer. And again, it might not be unmet needs that you decide is the thing that you want to use to anger this conversations. But think of something whatever that is where you go with that. And then honestly, I think step five is just a practice. So use the language for example of unmet needs if that's the thing you're going with, with students with adults in as many situations as possible. 00:16:48Edit So a conflict arises in school. OK, let's talk about this. Let's debrief what was unmet need even if it wasn't in your space in your class and your OK. So there was this other conflict that happened in this other space. OK. Well, what was going on with that? Right. That's actually kind of helpful to separate yourself and the people practicing this from what's actually going on. It's not your own thing. The emotion is a bit lower. We can think in our heads a little bit more and it feels more emotionally safe. And so when you're discussing conflict, for example, in the news or a book, like a character is going through conflict that becomes a nice stepping stone to eventually getting to the point where you can share your own emotional experiences and your advent needs. So practice with that, but also invite others to role play restorative conferences. So come up with some fictional scenarios, there's some online and learning for justice has some on their website. I think this works really well in a formal kind of training environment when everyone's learning restorative practices. So this might be a staff professional development student training if you're training students for something like peer mediation. Ideally, it's it's specifically for restorative conferencing facilitation, but students can do this too. 00:17:51Edit And I want to emphasize that and they're really good at practicing. Even if it is not for a formal training, I have done just pure, I think this is becoming more common here but social emotional learning circles or activities that are separate from like just integrating social emotional stuff and all that we do, which is I think the best idea. But when we do um separate curriculum for fel like this is a great one, right in our lives, we will come into conflict with so many individuals, we need to just be able to do this well. So it's a wonderful skill to be able to equip students with, you can definitely take class time to practice or if you're a leader, encourage your teachers to take class time to practice this. It will benefit the school community, but it will also benefit these students individually, many of us need breakfast with us. Finally, as a last tip before you go, I would practice those last two steps to familiarize yourself with relevant language and practice the actual conferences by trying this simple practice for the next week as many times as you can for one week after you're done with this episode. 00:18:59Edit Ask the question, what does this person need? Anytime you see conflict arise, anytime you interact with a person try to identify their unmet need, feel free to substitute any language or um foundational thing you want here. So if it's not I that need like what is this person expressing in their nonverbal language as they communicate with me, whatever it is, but get practice with one of the components of restorative conferencing and just practice for a full week that will make it so that it becomes kind of second nature as you facilitate these conferences as you participate, potentially in these conferences, as an individual participants, it will make everything just better. Your community will be strengthened. You will have these skills to rely on when you need to repair harm in the moment. You can do this. You are amazing. Let me know how it goes and I will be with you again next week. If you like this episode, I bet you'll be just as jazz as I am about my coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane, Sapir and Jamila Dugan talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book Street Data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. 00:20:04Edit Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period? I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action. If you're smiling to yourself as you listen right now, grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm. How I can help you make this big dream a reality. I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm. Call at Lindsay, Beth lions.com/contact. Until next time, leaders think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the teach better podcast network better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better.com/podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
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In the episode, the amazing Angela Watson and I talk about how teachers can thrive alongside students, how we do best as a community of specialists, and what it looks like to be working in a flow state. If teacher retention and staff well-being is important to you, this is a must listen!
Angela Watson is a productivity and mindset specialist, author, and motivational speaker for educators. She has supported countless teachers in making teaching more effective, efficient, and enjoyable, including on her amazing podcast, Truth for Teachers, which I truly enjoy. In this episode, Angela talks to us about her vision for empowering teachers and students and creating classrooms centered on authenticity and flow. The Big Dream Angela envisions a place where educators and students can co-thrive together, with their needs not being pitted against each other. By focusing on the strengths of students and working collectively as a community, we can create an educational environment where everyone feels accepted and supported in being their authentic selves. Alignment to the 4 Stages: Mindset, Pedagogy, Assessment, and Content In order to achieve this dream, teachers can shift their mindset, adopt new pedagogical approaches, embrace innovative assessments, and ensure that content is relevant and engaging for students. Angela emphasizes the importance of empowering teachers and students to create change in their classrooms and tap into student motivation and engagement. Mindset Shifts Required Teachers do not need to be all things to all students. Instead, let’s work collectively as a community. A strengths-based approach helps staff and students! Angela says: “It's not possible to be good at everything and teaching. You cannot be a subject area expert, a developmental appropriateness, pedagogical kind of expert, explain things well, good at curriculum planning, good at parent communication, good at data entry, good at explaining yourself in IEP meetings…there's so many different things. You're going to be better at some than others, and I would love to see schools be a place where we work as a community to have all the needs met. So, instead of every individual having to be good at every single thing or, let's be real, to be excelling…What if we thought about it as a community effort? So maybe I'm really good at preparing activities and you're really good at the relationship piece with students and they feel like they can trust you and come to you…Partner together instead of trying to be all things to all students, which is just a recipe for burnout.” How do we make this happen? Work with Others Angela says, “It's much harder to dehumanize or demonize…people who don't share your values if you have accomplished something with them. If you've worked to get an extra recess break with people who have different viewpoints than you, it's much harder then, when we're talking about book banning, to be like ‘You're a monster who hates kids.’ Clearly you're not, because you just worked with me to get more recess time. So are there ways that we can work towards things that we do have in common, to create a positive change? And then, can we just find this small cadre of like minded folks to to push the envelope a little bit towards the things that are maybe not what anyone agrees on?” Pedagogically… Amplify student voice and belonging Follow students' lead and interests, allowing them to be more engaged in the learning process. Create a space for students to feel vulnerable, fostering a sense of belonging and connection. Build a toolbox of strategies to support a flow state Instead of “on task”, aim for a flow state. The state of flow (Csikszenthmihalyi) is where you're so absorbed in a task that you lose track of all time. Angela says, “It's one of the peak human experiences, and the optimal way to experience a flow state is when you're being challenged.” We can support student flow by emphasizing that we're learning alongside our students and there's no judgment around not being able to concentrate. “It's not a bad thing. It is a morally neutral thing And we don't need to load it down with all this baggage and guilt and shame….We all experience things and we're just not motivated. Challenges? It can be hard to find the time for reflection and personal growth as educators and overcome feelings of inadequacy in teaching these skills if we haven’t mastered them ourselves yet. (But we can learn alongside students!) One Step to Get Started Start by noticing and affirming the strengths and interests of your students. This simple act can have a profound impact on their engagement and motivation, ultimately contributing to a more fulfilling educational experience for both students and teachers. Stay Connected You can find Angela on her website. Also, check out her 40 Hour Teacher Workweek program and Finding Flow Solutions curriculum. To help you find the time and energy to implement some of the ideas we discussed today, Angela is sharing her and her students’ wisdom with you during The 40 Hour Teacher Workweek Online Summit! (This was free for live attendees July 10-11, but you can still access the recording for $19.) And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 133 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT I'm so excited for you to hear from Angela Watson today. I have been listening to Angela's podcast for years and now you get to hear from her on this show before I tell you all about her and you may already know all about her. We recorded this episode on June 6th and she shares many opportunities like her 40 hour teacher work week program. The cohort date for that is going to be different than what she shared given that we recorded in June and then this is airing in September. And you may be listening to this at any point in the future after September 2023. So she has regular openings of that. Just check her website, which we will link to in our blog post for this episode for the correct dates. Also, she shares a July 10th and 11th event which is free at the time of recording. Don't worry, you can still purchase access to it for $19 which again, we will link to in the blog post for this episode. Now let me tell you about Angela. Angela is a productivity and mindset specialist author and motivational speaker for educators she is a National Board certified teacher and has a degree in curriculum and instruction along with 11 years of classroom teaching experience and over a decade of experience as an instructional coach through her website, books, podcasts, courses, curriculum and professional development services. 00:01:10 Angela Watson has supported countless teachers in making teaching more effective, efficient and enjoyable. Let's get to this episode. I cannot wait for you to hear from Angela. I'm educational justice coach, Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula, grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach. I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings if you're a principal assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nerd out about co creating curriculum with students. I made this show for you. Here we go. Angela Watson. Welcome to the time for teacher shift podcast. Thanks for having me, Lindsey. I am so excited for this conversation. I have been listening to your podcast for so long and that I'm so happy you're on this one. And I'm curious to know if people haven't been listening to your podcast, you know, what can, what can they know about you or what it's important for them to keep in mind for this conversation we're gonna have today. 00:02:19 Sure. So my background is um 11 years in the classroom and then I've spent over a decade doing instructional coaching. Um I have a podcast called Angela Watson's Truth for Teachers. I have a writers collective where I feature the voices of those who are currently k 12 teachers. Um I have the 40 hour teacher work week, which is our signature course and a bunch of curriculum resources as well. So um kind of all over the place, but everything is centered around teacher mindset, support, encouragement, productivity. I really gravitate to your 40 hour teacher work week because I just feel like without that ability to just like figure out what is most essential and how do you kind of do this in a productive, sustainable, like way that centers well being, then you're just like ready to quit. At least I was like you without that. Yeah, I think it's so important to ground the work in that. And so I love starting with the question of freedom dreaming. Doctor Bettina, love talks about this in, in a wonderful way. She talks about it as dreams, dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so I'm wondering what is that big dream when you think about freedom dreaming in that context for you. 00:03:27 And I specifically like thinking about it in curriculum instruction terms, but feel free to, to share it in any terms that you'd like. So my freedom dream is and I love that you just jump right in there with the big deep question. We're not gonna do any kind of small talk, any, we're gonna go right in there. What is my big freedom dream? Um Because I mean, these are the kinds of conversations that, that I like to have and I think if we're not focusing on the bigger vision and the bigger, why, then what is it all for? It's just a whole bunch of teaching ideas and nobody needs more ideas of things to just do. Um So my freedom dream is something that I feel like I'm still sort of articulating and I feel like it changes over time, which is probably true for a lot of people. But I envision a place where educators and students can co thrive together. I feel like a lot of times right now their needs are pitted against each other. Um You know, and we need to find the overlap between what's best for teachers and what's best for kids because I don't think they're at odds nearly as often as, as they're made out to be. 00:04:31 And I think there are a lot of things that are good for teachers and horrible, horrible for kids. And there are things that are um really good for kids, but they're completely burning teachers out. We're asking them to do way too much, but there are things that work for both. And so in, in, in my freedom dream for schooling. It would be a place where both teachers and kids can thrive and to feel accepted and like and supported in thriving. Exactly as they are so many times, I feel like students are pressured to be good at things that they're not necessarily interested in, not necessarily skilled in. Um And we focus so much on the weaknesses rather than how do we play up their strengths? How, how do we help them utilize their strengths? Um If they're really good in this one particular area, are we getting support to help them succeed in that area too? And not just focusing on all the things that they're not able to do. And I feel like the same could be true for teachers too because all teachers have many, many strengths. 00:05:34 Um but the skill set required for teaching effectively is so broad, it's not possible to be possible to be good at everything and teaching like you cannot be a subject area, expert, a developmental appropriateness, pedagogical kind of expert um explain things well, good at curriculum planning, good at parent communication, good at data entry, good at explaining yourself in IEP meetings. Uh Like there's just, there's so many different things you're gonna be better at some than others. And I would love to see schools be a place where we work as a community to have all the needs met. So instead of every individual having to be good at every single thing or let's be real to be ex excelling. You know, we have to have like 100% um achieving mastery in every single area. What if we thought about it as a community effort? So maybe I'm really good at preparing activities and you're really good at, um you know, the, the relationship piece with students and, you know, they feel like they can trust you and come to you, like, can we partner together instead of trying to be all things to all students, which is just a recipe for burnout. 00:06:45 Um I just think in so many ways, teachers are left alone to figure out all of the the solutions and they just don't have the support and resources for it. And I want to see a place where not only are those supports and resources offered, but also where kids feel like they can be whoever they are. And if they have trouble concentrating, there's nothing wrong with them. If it's difficult for them to get their work done on time, you know, we can provide supports for that and we can help them tap into their own motivation. And right now that's something that is again, just being thrown on the backs of teachers, like teachers are supposed to just figure it out and it's too much for one person. So in my freedom dream, it would be a community effort and we would look for needs to be met collectively rather than just individually. Oh, wow. I love that. That is so good. And I, I think about this too, I think it connects to kind of your, your work in the sense of like, I think there's often this mindset of teachers, right? That we have to take it all on. Like that's part of the job is we have to be perfect and we have to be all things to all students, like you said, like I, I think that is so ingrained in like even teacher school and just kind of like the way that we approach the the profession. 00:07:57 And so I'm wondering that takes a real mindset shift to go from. Here's what I think of teaching and here's what I think needs to be on my shoulders to this more beautiful, like strength based community, collective goal achieving thing that you're describing. How do you help folks to get from that one space of like not greatness to this other kind of freedom dream that you're describing. So, I mean, ii, I definitely refer people back to Doctor Betina Love. Um And, and, and talking about that, I think she does a, a really awesome job with it. Um You know, a part of liberation is being able to imagine something better. And if we can't imagine something better that we can never have it. And I think because there are so many limitations and systemic issues in education, it's easy for teachers to say, well, you know, this is, this is just never going to happen. It's completely unrealistic. Um And I think that stems from them being asked to do the impossible. 00:09:01 Right. If you're constantly being asked to do more than you actually can, then when someone's like, I know, let's have this collective vision and where we all support each other. You're like, yeah. Right. Like, you know, I can't even manage what I'm already doing much less that. But I think it's important not to lose that space for dreaming because um if we wait for someone else to have that vision, it's not necessarily going to be what we need because I don't think anyone knows your classroom as well as you as a teacher and no one knows your community, your school, your demographics, as much as you. Um And so I think we need teachers and parents and students and other stakeholders to all have a voice in this streaming and to be able to dream together without saying like we're gonna go implement this in this three step process tomorrow. I mean, the thing about freedom dreaming is that you can't systematize it, you cannot standardize it. You cannot look for this. Um You know, the a a consultant to just come in and make it happen for you overnight. 00:10:03 Like it's something that everyone has to be collectively invested in. It happens over time. It's shaped by the individuals there. What's gonna happen in one school is not gonna be what's happening in another. So I wanna say that I understand that dreaming of something better can feel unrealistic and it doesn't necessarily mean we're gonna go implement it right away. There is value in the vision, there's value in dreaming imagining um working towards something in your mind, even if the system isn't cooperating in terms of actually being able to implement it, it does have to be a collective effort, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a top down thing. I think that a small group of um teachers, particularly teachers can align with parents because a lot of times parents tend to have more influence on what's happening in the schools and teachers for better or for worse. Um If you can align with just even a handful of parents, we've seen, um you know how a handful of rowdy parents at a school board can push a whole agenda through. And I think that folks who are really thinking about what's best for, for teachers and kids need to be doing the same thing in the sense of recognizing the power of a minority that you don't have to um get everyone on board in order to create change. 00:11:18 You can find like minded folks um and band together and, and work to create change and look for things that you have in common with people who oppose it. So there may be certain issues that you're just never gonna all agree on. But, you know, maybe everyone agrees that kids need more recess time. So, you know, there's very few people I think in terms of like teachers or parents who would say I want less recess for kids. Like I think we've all kind of gotten to the point where we understand now, physical movement and, and creativity, fresh air, all these things are very important. So are the things that we can actually band together in and accomplish together and then you're more allies. It's much harder to dehumanize or demonize the quote, other side, people who don't share your values if you have accomplished something with them, if you've worked to get an extra recess break with um people who have different viewpoints than you, it's much harder than when we're talking about book banning to be like you're a monster who hates kids clearly, you're not because you just work with me to get more recess time. So are there ways that we can work towards things that we do have in common um to create uh a positive change? 00:12:25 And then can we just find this small cadre of like-minded folks to um to push the envelope a little bit uh towards the things that are maybe not everyone agrees on, but that something that could be maybe brought into existence because a lot of people are not freedom dreaming, they're not envisioning something better. Um They don't actually have a plan and I think that's something we've seen at these school board meetings too. They don't actually know what they want. They're just, you know, have vague fears around certain things that they think might be happening that they don't want, they don't have a clear vision one. It's like, ok, so what harm do you think is being caused? They, they're not telling you that and then when you say, ok, so what should we teach instead? They don't have a clear answer for that too. So if we can have clear answers, if we can be really clear, this is exactly what we want to do. This is why we want to do it. This is how it's going to affect kids. This is how it's gonna affect different demographics of kids. This is our goal. Um It's much harder to argue that down with like vague, you know, feeling oriented things. 00:13:27 Well, I'm just afraid somebody might feel bad if they hear this, they might feel bad about themselves. I think that we can come in with that, that freedom dream formulate into something that could actually be doable and articulate that plan. And I think when you have a clear plan like that, it's just much easier to get change accomplished. So none of this obviously is easy. None of this is overnight. None of this is vigil and I don't ever want to put more on the backs of teachers because I think those of us who are not in the classroom also need to be leading this kind of work or uh assisting, supplementing this kind of work, amplifying this kind of work because it can't be another thing just for teachers to do. But I do want teachers to feel like you don't have to wait for help to come from the outside that you have power, you have influence and you know what those students need better than anyone else because you're the only one who's in a, in a group with them parents know their individual Children. They don't know the whole class. They don't know what these other kids are going to. They don't know what their families are like. Their upbringings are like their, their personalities, their likes, their dislikes, the teacher knows that. 00:14:30 And so I think really drawing on those strains um we're creating change can make a big difference. Oh my gosh, I, I love this concept of it like, I mean, all the things, but one of the things I, I really gravitated to is the less likely to dehumanize people when you've accomplished something together. Like yes, to finding that common thing that you're like, yes, we love kids, we're doing this thing together. That is so not, not easy by any means, but just so doable. I think in some ways and some people I think are seeing like the entrenchment into like this group versus this group and not seeing the possible of like recess time here we go, everybody be able to get like that's so beautiful to be able to paint that possibility of like alliance and cooperation and community and that space to then ultimately not dehumanize someone. I just, that is brilliant. I just like echo that, that is great. And I think you're talking a lot about, you know, the, the individual teachers not needing to wait for, for folks on the, on the outside or um you know, also the, the, this idea that it's not a standardized process. 00:15:35 And I know you work with so many teachers and like you've said, you've done 40 hour teacher work week, you have some curriculum resources. I'm curious to know for a teacher who might be like, OK, so I have this kind of vague vision of what I want for my class or I know that I want students to feel like a sense of belonging or whatever it is. Are there are things around either pedagogy or assessment or like the, the content, like we're talking about book banning the things that we're teaching, the stories, we're teaching the histories or history or perspectives that is helpful for teachers to think about as like a starting point or in the work that you've done things that you've seen maybe in those areas teachers doing and, and getting a lot of traction around. That's an attraction. It's a great question and I'm trying to think of a way to answer that doesn't sound like I'm just repeating student choice student buy in. Um But that really is so much of it. Like the kids have to feel connected to the teacher, feel like they can be safe and feel vulnerable um in order to give that kind of input in, in and in order to get the kind of engagement that you want. 00:16:42 And so maybe the piece that I would say about that is um don't underestimate following your students lead because a lot of times they have even better ideas than we do. They see possibilities that we don't see and they can think of things that are going to engage their peers that we might not think about. So some of the most powerful, powerful things happening right now in schools, I think are very much student driven um and kids um really kind of leading the way for teachers. And it's, that's a tough thing to replicate because at the same time that this is happening, we also have this whole wave of apathy, right, where we have students who are disengaged, um They feel hopeless about the future. They um don't see the point of education, it's very difficult to get them to do anything. Um And so I think this is where the the collective really comes in and drawing on strengths together. 00:17:46 Not every kid is going to be an activist and um not every kid is going to be super engaged through every step of their school year. I mean, I've talked about how I was their school career. I was a terrible student, uh, completely disengaged and was just like a pain in the butt. Always, like talking when the teacher was talking. So if you had been my teacher, then you would have thinking she's hopeless. Like, what is she gonna, like, she's not doing anything with her life clearly. Like, II, I feel very certain that I had a number of teachers, particularly in high school who felt that way and look. So, you know, like sometimes when you have kids who are not really um engaged with what you're trying to get them to do, that doesn't mean that once they tap into their own inner motivation and they find their own thing and it may be long after they leave your class, they may not be in their twenties or even thirties um before they really kind of get themselves together. But that this is where I think the strength based thing is so important where you're looking at as Dr Byron mcclure says, what's, what's strong instead of what's wrong? 00:18:49 Um And thinking about um you know, what is the student bringing to the table and capitalizing on that? Affirming that noticing that as much as possible. I mean, just noticing, you know, like, hey, you II, I didn't know that you knew how to do that or um I think that's so cool the way that you were able to talk about this. I didn't even know that was an interest of yours. One little comment like that can make a huge difference, can change the trajectory of a kid's life. Just an adult noticing and affirming something about them. So I think that's one of the most powerful things that you can do. And once kids feel like they're really being seen by you, they, some of them, not all of course, will open up more and you'll see more and you'll be able to, to kind of follow their strains and then hopefully follow their lead and um they can lead each other as well. Again, it shouldn't all be on the teacher to try to figure out what needs to be done. If you have a handful of kids in the class, you know, who are really passionate about something and who are able to kind of take charge of it. 00:19:51 They can help bring their friends on board and their enthusiasm can be contagious. Yeah, I, that's, that's so great to think about that student voice perspective. And I, and I, I just think about so many answers where our friends and, and people, I was listening to a podcast the other day where someone was saying this like that one comment from a teacher absolutely does change the trajectory of their lives, right? Like it is, that's because we kind of think as teachers, right? We have 30 students in a class or whatever or in a high school level, right? We were teaching hundreds of students and those moments, we don't always remember each individual moment with each individual kid because we have so many. But as students ourselves, right? We often remember these like very salient moments as like a conversations with teachers that we had. And that's so important to remember. Thank you for reminding us of that. And I'm wondering what would you suggest in terms of action steps for someone who's like, ok, I would like to do the student voice thing. It feels a little overwhelming to have maybe 30 students in a room and they all have different things and I can start with the small comments, maybe of like the noticing. I love that as an action step. Is there something else that you would recommend like as a place to start that a teacher could do? 00:20:55 I think we often say things like choice boards, but it sounds like you're talking about something that's like even deeper, right? Like even even like more strength based and not just like which do now would you like to accomplish? Yeah. Yeah. And, and yes to choice boards and yes to everything there too. And I think that teaching kids to understand themselves is even more powerful than the teacher working to understand them because yeah, there, there's no way you're gonna get to know them all, particularly if you teach multiple classes. Um, it's just it's very difficult and, you know, I taught at the element entry level and even with, you know, just 20 some kids in the classroom, it was still hard because I had so much curriculum I had to quote cover, you know, there was so much we had to be doing all the time that, like, you know, we weren't just, like hanging out in the library corner, like reading books and, you know, talking all the time. Like I had to really be very intentional about it. So it's, it's difficult for the, for the teacher and maybe disempowering in some ways for the kids to rely on an adult telling them what is, what is special or what is good and particularly with younger kids, you'll find they can get very addicted to that and everything becomes like, look at me, look at me, look what I can do. 00:22:06 So the the counterbalance to that is to help them notice things about themselves and to understand what works best for them and what helps them thrive. So, one of the things I'm working on right now is called um finding Flow solutions. And it's about flow in the classroom, which is um Mihai Cheeks at Mihai's research. Uh He was a Hungarian American researcher who was talking about um you know, the state of flow where you just, you're so absorbed in a task um that you just lose track of all time. And I thought this is so much better of a goal for us in class than like being on task like, oh my gosh, like who wants to be told, get on task, you know, like get your work done, finish the assignment. Like being in a flow state is like, it's um it's one of the peak human experiences and the optimal way to experience a flow state is when you're being challenged. It's not when you know, if, if you're just scrolling through tiktok or playing a video game or watching Netflix, you can lose state of, you can lose track of time, but that's not really a state of flow because the state of flow is um when you are actively involved in it. 00:23:13 And so being in a challenging situation can really add to that and we're in challenging situations all the time in schools, we're always, you know, trying to get kids to stretch themselves and grow and to learn. And so it really is the optimal place to experiment with that. So I like the idea of helping kids figure out like what helps them find their flow, what things do we do in school that they find so engaging that they don't want to stop when they're done. And it might just be one thing particularly, you know, as, as kids get older and middle and high school. Um you know, it, it can be more challenging for them to think of stuff that they really enjoy. But certainly everybody I think has had an experience in school where like, oh man, we have to stop now and thinking about like, what was I doing at that time? Was I working alone or with other people? What subject was it? Was I concentrating very hard? Um Was I writing? Was I drawing? Was I doing something with my hands? Was I standing? Was I sitting like, really starting to notice what are those things? Because it's very individualized. It's not gonna be the same for every person and just teaching kids how their brains work, teaching kids. 00:24:15 Um you know how different energy levels happen at different times of day, how the amount of sleep that you get impacts your energy levels and your ability to focus how, what you eat impacts it. Um These are all like very empowering things just to expose kids to, I mean, you don't have to do, you know, you've got a lot of other things that you need to be teaching and again, it shouldn't all be on teachers have to do this, but I find it really helpful just to even mention it because I mean, Google exists like kids can go find more if you tell them that, you know, eating, you know, this, this sort of, you know, less processed foods, more vegetables, whatever can help you focus more or staying hydrated, really helps your brain function. And so it's really good to have a water bottle that's quick, you can just say that really quick and they can always go learn more if they want to like, it's, it's very easy for them to find more information. So, um you know, I don't think you have to be totally um immersed in all of the latest research and all of these things, but just sharing these kinds of things with kids and talking about um your own challenges with, with productivity. 00:25:16 How, you know, I was really tired this morning. I really did not want to come in and teach today. Here's what I did to get motivated or, you know, I really did not feel like reading grading those papers last night, but I knew I needed to get the feedback to you. So here's this little, you know, trick that I use, I use the P Medora method where I work for 20 minutes and then I take a break for five and maybe that's something that you might want to try when you have homework, you have it a try tonight like that sort of thing. So kind of presenting these things to kids is like, this is part of the human experience. This is not just you being immature, which is sometimes how I think we frame it for kids. Like you need to just like buckle down and get it done and like grow up, you know, like, you know, you can't get away with this in the real world, but in the real world. We do all still struggle with getting our work done. We do all still struggle with concentrating and focusing and it's not getting better uh with technology and just with the way the world is changing. So what if we approach it as an experiment is something that we're learning alongside our students and there's no judgment around it. It's, it's morally neutral, not being able to concentrate is not a fault isn't a bad thing. 00:26:18 It is a morally neutral thing and we don't need to load it down with all this baggage and guilt and shame and, you know, cajoling and nagging like it's just, it's a thing. We all experience times and we're just not motivated. So what can we actually do? What things actually work and, and building a toolbox of strategies that you can go to so that you have different options to choose from. You know, maybe this one thing works for a math assignment and this other thing works better after lunch when you're a little sleepy. And maybe this other thing works at night when you need to finish something up. So just teaching kids to notice their own, um, things that help them basically, rather than the teacher figuring it out for each student and telling every single student, um, just present different things to them and then help them apply it and then they can share it with you. They can say this really works for me. Or I didn't like that one at all. Please don't suggest that one to me again. And then, you know, um and, and you're not having to, to be like the apathetic student whisper, you know, and, and figure it all out on your own, let them experiment and let them tell you and then you can also share your same things with them so they can learn from your experience. 00:27:25 Yeah, I love this idea of flow. I I'm a huge fan of chicks in my high like working. So I think that's like brilliant to bring that in. And it also connects, I think to what you were talking about. Teachers and students both being able to co thrive. Like if we can have that for teachers that flow as well as the students. How cool. And I think I'm hearing in that like that space for reflection, like the noticing is important but as the teacher creating that space for yourself and for your students to actually do the noticing to share back with the teacher, like, what are you seeing? Oh my gosh, that would just be a game changer and like it would take 30 seconds right at the end of the day to ask that question and get that like noticing happening, which is just so cool. And so I'm I'm wondering in all of this and all of the work that you do in instructional coaching and all of the thinking about how we find that state of flow. What do you think is the biggest challenge for teachers in doing that work in, in trying to, to make all of this happen for themselves and for their students. Hi Lindsey. Just popping in here to tell you about today's episode resource to help you find the time and energy to implement some of these ideas we're discussing today, Angela is sharing her and her students wisdom with you during the 40 hour Teacher Workweek Online Summit. 00:28:36 Now we recorded this episode in advance of this. So it was free for live attendees, July 10th or 11th. But you can still access the recording for $19. We'll link to it in the blog post for this episode at Lindsay beth lions dot com slash blog slash 133. Back to the episode. Well, I could say finding time for it. Um That's pretty obvious. So I won't speak to that too much. Um I, I think another one that maybe is less obvious is feeling like how am I supposed to teach this to kids when I haven't mastered it myself? And I think, I mean, maybe this actually ties back to the time management piece. The reason we haven't managed figured out for ourselves is because we're exhausted and we're overwhelmed and we're trying to focus on too many different things. So we don't even have that reflection time for ourselves. So the more that I, yeah, actually now that I think this through, I think the two things could be sort of integrated. So if we have our own reflection time, which would be, you know, evenings, weekends breaks, summer, like, really taking that time to be, um, apart from school to not think about school and not do anything, uh, school related. 00:29:44 So that when you come back to thinking about it, you're fresh and then also taking some time, um, to really reflect on what's working, what's not, what do you need? Like, what do you actually need to thrive? What is actually missing for you right now? And how can you get more of it? Because sometimes it's not as big as what we think it would be, you know, like you think, oh, I need, like, I need a whole month just to catch up on everything. But the truth is like, if you just, like, had like an extra hour in the evenings that could make a big difference for you or if you just had time to do this one particular hobby or you just had time to exercise, it would change everything for you. So, really thinking, doing that reflection piece alone and thinking about what you, um, what you really need, I think is, is important and that can help give you back some of that time so that, um, you don't feel like that's such a barrier. Um, and then that will also address the, the part about feeling like you're not good enough at this to be teaching it to kids. I mean, my hope is that Finding Flow Solutions is a curriculum that makes it really easy because you don't have to master it ahead of time. 00:30:46 But as you're saying, it can be like super simple quick things. You don't actually have to have a whole curriculum for this. You can certainly just embed this into um your way of teaching and experiment alongside of students. So this is one of the areas where, you know, we always talk about, you know, God on the side instead of sage on the stage. And it's difficult to do that, particularly at the middle and high school level because you do know so much more about, you know, earth science or geometry or whatever it is that you're teaching than your students. So it's hard to be in a position of learner. But when it comes to productivity, that's something we're all still learning mindset is something we're all still learning and we're all still always learning about ourselves. I hope to be learning about myself till the day that I am not here anymore because I'm always changing and growing. And so no matter how much more you know about your subject area than your students, um how much older you are, than them, how much more experienced in life you are than them. You're still a learner in this area. And I think it can be really um really empowering for kids to see the teacher step into that role and say I don't have this mastered either. 00:31:53 I mess up with this all the time. I'm not quite where I wanna be with it and I'm still trying different things out modeling that for them rather than saying, ok, this is the standard that I expect, which is the way that I think school is done a lot of times like I expect you to always be on time. I expect you to always turn in everything on time. Ok, I'm late sometimes. Personally, I don't meet every deadline. Like, uh you know, I spaced on this podcast interview with you, we had to reschedule. So, you know, like stuff happens, we're, we're all human and that doesn't mean necessarily making excuses for it. But um if we are striving for always showing up perfectly, that's not gonna happen. So we need to have strategies for what to do. How can we be resilient in those situations where we weren't able to do everything that we wanted to do. And um modeling that for kids rather than trying to be the person who's already mastered it, I think helps them be more vulnerable. 00:32:54 And I think you also learn more too because you're learning alongside the students and, and getting ideas from them and they can get ideas from you. Absolutely. And I, and I'm just thinking about I, when I worked in this um international network school. We, we have this thing principal, I guess we called it uh one learning model for all. And it was, it was very much that the teachers are doing the same activities as the students. And the students can see that like, the students might pop into a PD or something or a teacher time after school and like, notice that we're doing the same like rose thorn or, you know, whatever it is and just be like, oh, that's really cool that we are learning alongside you. And we're literally doing that in our team time and our PD and our staff meetings. And I think that's such a great opportunity to do some of the things they're saying where we're experimenting alongside and like for leaders listening, you know, like that's such a cool thing I think to be able to do with your teachers. So it's not, I think it's very great to reflect outside of school. But also like, is that some, you know, is that an additional task that we need to put on teachers if we can embed it in the school day too, to just give teachers time to be able to think and reflect and do that thing? I think that would be so cool. And then the other thing I was thinking is you talk a lot about fewer things better. 00:33:58 And so like that piece too, like, do I need a month to catch up? Like, well, what can actually go and what can I actually just prioritize to be able to not actually have to do all of the things and like, what are the most essential? I think that is really helpful as teachers are kind of thinking about. Ok, like what do I literally do in terms of putting the stuff into practice? Um I just think you just bring so much wisdom in your podcast that if people aren't listening, you need to have the link to listen more. Thank you for that Lindsay and thanks for also bringing out the piece about how school leaders can embed this more and then you can have this collective reflection time together with other teachers that's so powerful. Yeah, I think there's so much leaders can do to, to really leverage this and like not standardized but like just make this a common practice, right? A community practice that's not just for students. Um II, I want to move to respect your time to, to kind of our closing questions here. What is something and this is just for fun. So it does not have to be education related. But what is something that you have been learning about lately? I know that you talked about like, you just want to constantly be learning about yourself and you're just kind of like this, always learning, what is something that you wanna share with folks that you have been learning lately? 00:35:08 Um OK, so this is totally random, but I've been reading um I've been learning more about the dust bowl and what happened in that era. Like, I, I get fixated on these like certain areas of like certain aspects of history. And I'm really always fascinated by daily life. Like, I don't want to know about the battles and the famous people. I want to know like what was actual daily life like then. And it has been so fascinating to see the parallels between um what happened then and, and what happens now about how, you know, when you try to force the land and the animals to exist in a way to serve you rather than working yourself into the environment. Um The catastrophe that that comes from it, the suffering that comes from it. It has been really, really interesting. So that's, that's totally random. But it, it's something that kind of helps me think um outside just our current moment in time and recognizing patterns between what's happened um in the past and making the parallels till today. Like, I feel like that always helps me think more deeply. 00:36:12 That is super insightful and I love the random ones. They are the best. So my final question to you is just where can listeners learn more about you? I think they're gonna listen to this and be like, yep, I'm on the podcast. I'm doing all the things I'm doing 42 hour teacher work week. Where can people get in touch. So the easiest way is just truth for teachers dot com. So from there, you can see a link to the 40 hour Teacher Work Week, which is opening to new members. Um, this summer. Um You'll find out about the 40 hour Teacher Work Week online summit, which I'm really excited about. That's July 10th and 11th where our members are sharing their best time saving ideas. Um, and it's totally free. So I'm, I'm really excited for you to watch. I've seen all of the presentations and they're phenomenal just to see like what they're doing in their classrooms, to streamline grading lesson planning, all that kind of stuff. So you can see links for that at truth for teachers dot com. Um as well as my other curriculum resources, the finding flow stuff that I mentioned and my social media handles. So I'm not super active on social media, but I do have a presence and I do like to, you know, DM with people and interact there. 00:37:16 So um feel free to, to reach out, be in touch. I would love to hear your ideas. And definitely, um if you, if you like Lindsey's podcast, you will love Truth for teachers too. I think so. I think we're very sympathetic in a lot of ways. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Oh, my gosh, Angela. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your wisdom with us. Thanks Lindsey. If you like this. Episode. I bet you'll be just as jazzed as I am at a coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane Saer and Jamila Dugan. Talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book Street data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period. I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action. You're smiling yourself as you listen right now. Grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm. How I can help you make this big dream of reality. I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Z Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm. Call it Lindsay lions dot com slash contact. Until next time, leaders think big act brave and be your best self. 00:38:22 This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network, better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better dot com slash podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
January 2026
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