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9/29/2025 230. How is Decision Fatigue and Herd Mentality Showing Up For You? with Dr. ClauDean KizartRead Now
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In this episode, we talk with Dr. ClauDean Kizart, or Dr. K, about insights from her incredible book, Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias: Strategies for Healing the Root Causes of Inequity in Education. Dr. K’s goal is to dig deep down into the root causes of biases, understanding what they are and why they’re there in order to foster equity and growth in the educational system.
Dr. K discusses some specific types of bias, including herd mentality bias, drawing historical connections and personal anecdotes. She also talks about the concept of decision fatigue, drawing from her 26+ years as an educator to offer practical self-care strategies to help educators mitigate biases and improve decision-making processes. The Big Dream Dr. K. envisions a future where the educational system, made up of the people in that system, fosters cognitive development—providing foundations for reading, writing, arithmetic, etc.—while still managing bias in a healthy, holistic way. She wants to create communities where educators are conscious of their biases and engage in open discussions to drive better outcomes for students. Mindset Shifts Required A significant mindset shift required is to start with the understanding that biases are not inherently negative but a natural part of human behavior. Dr. K stresses that recognizing and managing biases is crucial, rather than viewing them as a moral failing. This shift involves seeing biases as an opportunity for self-reflection and growth, enabling educators to create more inclusive learning environments. Action StepsTo start managing biases to achieve better outcomes for students, educators can simply focus on two key action steps: identify the bias and take steps to mitigate it. Dr. K’s book covers many different ones, but we focus on two in this podcast episode:
It’s also important for educators to engage in open conversations about biases, as even this process can help identify, understand, and manage them for the best outcomes. Challenges? One of the challenges in addressing biases is overcoming the fear of social alienation when confronting herd mentality biases. Educators may hesitate to speak out against biases due to concerns about being perceived negatively. Dr. K encourages educators to address underlying assumptions and engage in informational, rather than confrontational, dialogues. One Step to Get Started To begin diving into your own biases, educators can begin by taking the Harvard Implicit Bias Test. It’s a simple step to gain greater insights into your personal biases, helping educators become more aware of their cognitive processes and how these may affect their interactions in educational settings. Stay Connected You can stay connected with Dr. ClauDean Kizart on both Instagram and LinkedIn. To help you implement today’s takeaways, grab a copy of Dr. K’s book, Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias: Strategies for Healing the Root Causes of Inequity in Education. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 230 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Dr K, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 00:07 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) Awesome. Thank you for having me. I'm truly grateful that you thought about me and that for the opportunity to speak about my book with your listeners. 00:17 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Absolutely, and so, yeah, let's frame the episode with that. I think what initially drew me actually to your book so it's here in my hands and I really I enjoyed the whole title, but particularly the subtitle really really got me. So this idea of healing the root causes of inequity in education, it's like, yeah, someone's got to talk about that. So is there anything you want to say kind of broadly, before we get into specifics, to frame the conversation today around the book? 00:44 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) So I love that you talked a little bit about the title. 00:48 I can be a little long winded sometimes and so initially there it was definitely some work around like making sure the title wasn't too long, but it was also very specific and that for me, particularly as a healer, that it focused on healing right as a educator this is my 26th year as an educator we have a lot of methodology, have a lot of methodology, we have a lot of strategies, we have a lot of different types of curriculum and programs and things of that nature, and one of the things that I have observed is that you can have a lot of programs and you can have a lot of initiatives and you can have a lot of curriculum and you can have a lot of methodology. 01:44 But if the person who is in charge, so to speak, whether that is the administrator or the teacher or the superintendent, if this person who is in charge of carrying the initiative or the program or the curriculum or what have you you through has a bias, you will still have inequities right, and so I think it's really important to discuss these biases. Research says that the more that we discuss biases, the more we're able to see them within ourselves and the more we're able to actually manage them. I think sometimes people think biases are a bad thing or it makes them a bad person, and it's not Absolutely positively, it does not. Having a preference doesn't make you a bad person, right? And so I repeat that, you know, in several stages of my book, because I think it's important to have grace for ourselves and have grace for each other and in the meantime, while we have grace, to do the work to really heal those systemic inequities, in education particularly, and in the world. 02:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I appreciate so much of what you said. I did not realize that just discussing them is going to do all this. It makes total sense and I love that there's research behind that is going to, you know, do all this things. It makes total sense and I love that there's research behind that. I think one of the things that you know, in line with this idea of healing and in line with it, all of the pieces that you're saying, I love to ask, as one of the first questions, getting into some content, like, in line with this idea of freedom dreaming Dr Bettina Love has a great quote around it right Dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. You, you know what is that big freedom dream that you hold for education? 03:29 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) I love that question. Uh, that would. That is a first and I love it. The goal, you know, if I, I like to say if I had a magic wand, right, um, and, and talking about freedom dreaming, it would be to have an educational system. Remember, people are systems. So we talk about system, but it's the people who are the system. The system is not like outside of us. Right, we are the system, we are the community. 04:00 So when we talk about how to have, how to ensure that as a system, we are fostering cognitive development and cognitive thinkers and making sure that students have a foundation of reading, writing and arithmetic and so forth, the goal for me, or the big dream, or the freedom dream for me, would be having that opportunity. That is, I can't say without bias, right, like that's my first mind wants to say, without bias, but when I think about it, bias Dr Beverly Tatum says bias is like small, just everywhere. So it's not that the big dream is without bias. It's in a way where we manage our biases right, where teachers are having conversations and principals and superintendents and instructors and professors are having conversations with each other and with themselves about their own biases in a way that is healthy and holistic and in a way that drives us to be better and to do better for our students, right? Whether they are K-12 or college university students. 05:24 That would be the big dream, like a community of people who are like, oh, like you said before we started, I noticed that decision fatigue, bias is the same for me. After about this time, I don't really make decisions. Well, if you know that about yourself, how do I then manage that? That would be the big dream. Communities of people who know specific biases, because I think it's not enough to say implicit, or not enough to say explicit, because what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? It's implicit, so talk to me. It's a community of people who would know that there's specific biases. There's over 250 research-based biases, right, that I think any person who is an educator or deals in any form of human services needs to know as a way of how to better work with people, right? So that would be my big turn. That would be my freedom turn. 06:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love that so much and it gets into. I think the mindset shift that maybe some people are making as they're engaging with this episode is just bias is not bad, it is just part of things and we need to learn to identify them and manage them and that's yeah. I think that's going to be a shift for some people, which is important. 06:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) Can I share my other big dream, please? Can I share my other big dream? My other big freedom dream is that in teacher preparation programs there's always a session or teacher preparation organizations. I think if we had more conversations or about intentional conversations about biases, with people you know, like myself and other academics as well as researchers who are also practitioners of ensuring that you know we're managing our own biases, then as teachers go into education right and into the field, they're more knowledgeable and more reflective practitioners in that. But every teacher preparation program has a whether it is not necessarily a module, because I think that we need to have conversations around our biases, not just this electronic click here do you know this? But have conversations to unpack those right. But I think my big dream would be facilitating those conversations on large scales with teacher organization groups or teacher preparation. 08:09 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Oh my gosh, I think you're so right. I totally agree, because I do remember there was like a quick module or something in my teacher prep program and it was just. I mean reading your book and I'm reading. I'm also reading Reclaiming Authenticity, which is a beautiful companion to read. I read them in the same plane ride as I read your book and it was this beautiful kind of conversation. What I noticed is that all of the scenarios you include in your book and all of the kind of reflections that they have of like these misstep moments, moments where bias came in, it's just like those are the learning moments, like I need that illustrated, and how better to do that than like reflecting in conversation and sharing. 08:50 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) And and scenarios, right, I don't. I think one of the I got a tad bit emotional because I just feel like we need to prepare our teachers better. I just feel like we need to prepare our teachers better. Majority of the teachers that I know like come into education because they want to work with students. They want to make an impact in the field of education. They want to educate. 09:29 It's not, you know, some people you hear if you can't, what do they say? If you can't, whatever teach. I don't know many people who are like that. Most of the people that I know education love students and love education and want to make an impact. Right, and one of the things that kind of gets me is the preparation part. Right, we do the preparation when it comes to do you know reading methodology. We do the preparation. Do you know math methodology. 09:51 But I think we still need to do a better job, especially now. Especially now, right, our country is growing more and more different, diverse, and I think that those differences are part of our strength, right, but I think right now, it's about how do we utilize that as a strength and prepare our teachers to ensure that they are going out into the world of education that they love to deal with differences in a way that does no harm. I wish we had, like a teacher oath, like doctors have a oath. I talk about that in my book. Do no harm, right. And I think it's harmful to not know your own biases and just to just allow that to come out in your day-to-day interactions with students and not stop yourself because you don't even know that you're doing it. 10:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Oh my gosh. Yes, so true, and I think so. Maybe maybe we can do this. Maybe we can just kind of name some of the biases in the book. I don't want to give the whole thing away because people need to go get the book and we'll link to that. Yeah, it is so good, but I'm wondering if we can name some of the things for people to start being like oh, that's what you mean by a specific type of bias. How does that sound? Absolutely Okay, awesome. Are there ones you want to? You want to shout out some of your favorites? Or I have, I have my favorites that I wrote that are like really, let's talk about your favorites, oh, okay, great. So I personally resonated with herd mentality and decision fatigue. 11:31 Bias Like I could pinpoint, both for myself and for people that I've worked with, like oh, I can pinpoint moment after moment that are tied to those biases. 11:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) So I won't say that those two are my favorite, but I will say that those two are especially herd mentality bias. It is one of the most researched based biases that there is, and actually herd mentality bias was researched back in the late 1900s. So that's one of the things that I thought was really cool is that biases have been discussed for a very long time and researched for a very long time, but it's like we're just now really scratching the surface on them, right, which is I think it's cool. But it's like, okay, we gotta, we gotta get to get to the get to the good part where we are really discussing them specifically and managing them specifically, right. And so in I think it was 1895, there was a French social psychologist who developed. He wrote a book and in that book it was called the Crowd, a Study of the Popular Mind, and in that book he talks about herd mentality and he compares like herd mentality to like going along with the crowd Right, hence the name of the book. 13:22 We are experiencing a sense of maybe insecurity, because we don't think that we know as much as another person. They may be in a position of power, or it may be three or four people who are saying the same thing and we don't have the strength or know-how as to how to engage in a way that is not confrontational but informational. Right, and I talk about an example in my book with me, because that was something that I experienced early on when I was an educator, right, like there was this conversation about Spanish speaking students and I probably this was maybe my fourth year as a teacher and so of course, you know you're getting to know teachers, you're wanting to be in good community with teachers, and there was a few teachers in the work room, in the cafeteria not the cafeteria, but like the workspace and they were talking about a particular student who was Spanish speaking, and one of the teachers said you know, well, I hate that when they come here, that they even have an option. You know, if you're coming to the country, it shouldn't even be an option. You know if you're coming to the country, it shouldn't even be an option. You should be, you should speak English, and I knew that we were getting a new Spanish speaking student and that student was being assigned to that person's classroom and there were some other things that were said that I was like man, you know, that's a, that's a bias, and how is that student going to be treated? And, and you know that's a, that's a bias, and how is that student going to be treated? And you know, and I'm not saying that that person is a bad person, not at all. I'm saying that that person's bias as it relates to, to, to Spanish-speaking people, was very evident. You know, in the conversation and she said some other select things about you know. You know when that person gets in class that they're going to make sure that they do X, y, z, but it was like in a. It wasn't in a kind way, right, it wasn't a. How can we get the supports for this student so that, you know, we understand that English is their sacred language and we're going to have them up. It wasn't in that way, right, and I didn't say a word, right? I went along with the herd and then later on I was just really uncomfortable, so I just stopped eating lunch with them and stopped going into the room, you know, into the teacher workroom, and they were in there and that wasn't the good, that wasn't the best way to handle it. Teacher workroom, and they were in there and that wasn't the good, that wasn't the best way to handle it. Um, at the time I realized that and I remember one of my mentors saying you know, why didn't you say anything? And I was just like I didn't want to come off as you know, different I, I'm new here, I want to make friends here and that kind of thing. 16:17 And then fast forward to another incident that I speak with, speak about in my book. I was part of this organization and they started saying welcome to the jungle when they started talking about a particular predominantly black school. And I noticed that they didn't have any rhymes for other schools that were not predominantly Black. And I don't know if I go into all the details in the book, so this might be like a special for everybody, our break. And I was like, listen, this is what I'm hearing, this is what they're saying. It's wrong. I just I don't. I'll be honest with you. I said I don't want to seem like the angry Black woman because I was the only Black woman that was in there, only Black person at all that was in there and I said I don't want to seem like the angry Black woman and say something. 17:13 You know this is a new job and my mentor said Dr K, there is nothing angry about you, that's just not who you are. I encourage you to go in there and ask the question. And I was like what do you mean? He was like ask them, you know, what is it about this school that makes you have, that, makes you call this the jungle? Do you have other pet names or pet songs for other schools? And that was the thing. 17:43 I didn't know how to ask the question or what question to ask. And so now one of my things when things happen is OK, dr K, ask the question, right, and so that that that herd mentality bias can be seen in so many different ways. You know, um, and then it's also called various things. You know, there was another um, a British surgeon back in 1914 who called it herd behavior. Um, there was Sigmund Freud called it herd instinct, and so it's been like couched under different names, but it's all the same thing. 18:24 It is going along with the herd, and that can be out of fear for being different or because, hey, I just I want to go along and get along, or I don't even know what to say. You know, I don't want to seem different or I don't even know what to say. You know, and I don't want to seem different, or I don't want to make waves. Right, but when you're talking about working with students, whether, again, k-12 or higher ed, sometimes you have to be the person that asks the question. Right, we talk about being lifelong learners, but we're still learning too. Right? And no matter how young you are listen, you're right. Right, our Gen Zers no matter how young you are in education, you have something to contribute. So, whether you, if you walk in a room and it's people who have been in education for 20, 30 years, you deserve to be in that room and your voice is important. You give perspective, you know, and so be okay with knowing that your gift, your presence in that room, is a gift to the whole. 19:36 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Oh my gosh, thank you for all of that. Thank you for sharing. I think, again, those specific situations require so much like vulnerability to share. I I can add to like I resonate deeply with, like the sitting in a teacher's lounge or you know, and listening, and even as a coach, being like Ooh, I'm going to like pick my battles, like no, no, that, like that is, pick that one and that one and that one, like say something, ask the question. So I also appreciate that your action step of asking the question is so important and I love that for folks who are not sold yet, like get the book because it has a whole section of tips of like how to counteract, which I really appreciate. That was like the most heavily annotated part of it. I was like, oh, this is what I need to do, and I think I mean specifically to the decision fatigue one. I even like I read it two days ago and I already have in place a system for some of the tips that you had said for decision fatigue, Like I was like. 20:29 I have a coach. She's going to box me multiple times a day and just be like did you drink water in? The last hour Like did you? Did you eat food today? 20:37 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) That's good and I love that you took that step and I love and I appreciate that you are letting listeners know that. And again, the play on words, beyond implicit and explicit bias. This is not about, oh my goodness, I have this bias. This is about, oh my goodness, I am biased in this area. And now what do I do? So how do we get beyond that, beyond the shame, beyond the blame and all that other stuff that does nobody any good right. We have different lived experiences Okay. We come from diverse and different backgrounds. Okay, and now what? How do we work with that? And it's possible to work with that in a way that is beautiful and beneficial for us all. So, knowing strategies, those strategies are a way to get beyond our biases. 21:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Absolutely, and I know we will really end up into herd mentality or or or kind of that herd bias. Do you want to talk just for a little bit around decision? Because I I? What was interesting to me was I was like, oh, I can see these things happening, but I didn't always connect them to making decisions and the impact on classrooms, like the one thing. I'll just say I'm going to stop talking and let you talk. The one thing that really got me has been talking a lot about equitable assessment lately and when we're talking about the impact of decision fatigue on grading, I was like, oh my goodness, this is so good, so I mean bad, but good that you reveal it for us. 22:14 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) But it's come on, it's the truth. Let's just be honest. It's the truth, a hundred percent, and that's part of the work. Being honest with ourselves, right, I have been the teacher that has taken, you know, papers home to grade and really just wanted to be on my porch or really just wanted to, you know, do things with my kids, and there may be, or I just schedule a time during that time where I just dive in and grade the papers. You know, everybody has their, their theme that they're really great at and their thing that they're just not so great at, right, and for me it was grading papers, right, you know, the lesson planning, planning and all that good thing. I really enjoyed that part. The differentiated learning, I really enjoyed that part, but for me it was the grading the papers. Uh, so, listeners, don't judge me, we all have our thing. That is like I'm gonna take the sweet part, but there's also this part that I just don't like. And how do I manage that part that I just don't like? And how do I manage that part that I just don't like about my job? 23:23 But yeah, so with decision fatigue, it's very interesting because this is another bias that was coined back in. This was. But this was like 1990, 1990s, late 1990s, like 1998, early 2000s, and originally the research really had to do with what is called ego depletion and you know, ego is that aspect of us that's like I know, I know this, but after a while, everybody you get tired, you get tired. And if we're honest with ourselves, we live in a society and especially as teachers, you know there's so much that we have on our plates right, and we're often stretched very thin right. And sometimes there are some school districts that are doing a great job with, you know, reminding people about wellness and self-care and things of that nature. And there's some that are like we just got, we don't even have time, we got to keep it moving. And if you think about that in your own personal life, sometimes we're like I got to keep it moving and I may or may not eat until you know the evening where I'm realizing wait a minute, have I drank water? Have I? There's no way you can expect yourself to make quality decisions all day when you have not taken care of your physical, emotional needs. It's just, it's impossible and it's nothing we need to feel bad about. It's something we need to manage. It's impossible and it's nothing we need to feel bad about, it's something we need to manage Right. 25:13 This is the original research, which is interesting, about decision fatigue parole significantly more in the morning, right when we're fresh, right compared to the end of the day. So think about it you may have two people who are up for parole for the very same thing. This study showed significantly not just slightly significantly more that if that person who went up for parole for the same thing, same circumstances, may get parole if they go early in the morning, if they see that judge early in the morning, and if that same person came back at the end of the day for the exact same thing, exact same circumstances, race, color, creed and all that would probably get a different outcome with the parole. And so that was the basis of the study originally when it first came out back in, like I said, in the 1990s, and so now there's more and more research, including the research that's in my book about how that impacts teachers and administrators. 26:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I'm thinking about that immediate parallel too. I think this might've been a fictional scenario that you wrote, or maybe it was a real one where, like a principal is, you know, giving the suspension to the kid, the third kid in the day that has like graffitied the wall or the desk, and it's like the first kid it's okay, next kid, it's okay. Would everyone just stop graffiting like suspension and like that is so real, like that is so real that that is either at the school level or the teacher level that that happens and that's and it's such a simple, potentially simple thing. That's like if that teacher ate lunch or that principal ate lunch or had like 10 minute walk to like free their mind a little bit and just take a breather, like all these little tips that you give to actively take care of yourself may interrupt that bias. It's wild that that is like that's what we can do and that's what a gift to give ourselves and everyone around us. 27:20 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) I love that. What a gift to give ourselves and everyone around us. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, yep. 27:30 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Thank you for just breaking this down for us, for I mean, you take so much research, distill it so succinctly and then give us a real like, really tangible like. 27:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) I connect so deeply to all these scenarios we've probably that was the goal so I'm really happy that you get that, because that was the goal not to make it too short, not to make it too long, but to make it palatable. 27:53 You know, because, again, we teachers we got we often have a very full plate and so I feel like I think that my book is a companion piece, it's a discussion piece, it's a book study piece, it's a piece that can be used in schools all around the country, all around the world, just, you know, as a book study, as a as a way to from instructional coaches, and you know it's various ways that I think the information in my book can be used, because my grandmother used to say it's a sorry dog that don't wag its own tail, right. 28:29 And so I say this yes, because I wrote it, but also because I wrote it with teachers, with educators in mind. Right, I've been a classroom teacher, I have worked in higher education, I've been an administrator, so I wrote this with educators in various capacities in mind, and so, even if you notice the scenarios, there's different scenarios with different people, with different types of educators and different types of students. All that was done on purpose, because I want everyone to be able to see themselves, but see themselves with some grace, in a way that encourages change. We don't, you don't have change through shame and guilt and blame. You have change through grace. 29:16 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) And it doesn't serve anyone to just sit in the shame and blame right yeah, Thank you for that. Or to just sit in the shame and blame right yeah, Thank you for that. 29:21 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) Or to just tell me that I'm biased and not give me strategies Like what do I do with that? 29:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yes, such a good point. Such a good point, and so I think you know folks are going to order the book as they're listening and while it is en route to them, I'm curious what is like one thing they could do as they end the episode, to just kind of start thinking this way, practicing some of the stuff that we've talked about and that's in your book, like what's like kind of a one thing they could do in the next hour. 29:51 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) In the next hour, better at social media and I will get better at social media. I would say follow me at DocKizArt, because I'll talk about different types of biases on my social media. Listen, I'm knocking on 50. I'm not saying I'm not young, I'm not old. There are certain elements of social media that I'm getting used to and starting to learn more about, and so I recognize that that is a good platform for learning, and so one of my goals is to utilize that platform better. So if I was a listener, I'd say listen, I'm going to go follow Dr Kisart on social media to learn more about these various types of biases. 30:40 The other thing that I would recommend is to take the Harvard Implicit Bias Test right. It's completely free. You can just do a quick Google search for Harvard Implicit Bias Test. They have several categories of tests that you can take. Some of them are religious, some of them are political, some of them are race and ethnicity, but it's a wonderful way to get insight about your. 31:11 We talk to our students all the time about metacognition, thinking about your thinking. 31:15 It's a wonderful way to think about our thinking, and especially now when there's we find ourselves kind of like there's some polarization happening right, and I'll just speak on it. 31:31 There's polarization happening where people think that, well, if you supported this person in office, then you're a bad person, if you didn't support this person in office, then you're a good person or a bad person or whatever. And we're coexisting, we're working together, right, and so I think that implicit bias test on politics is really important for us all to take, because we're coexisting, but we don't like if we're not consciously aware that I may be saying and doing things because I know that you did support this person or you didn't support this person, or all these changes are happening and so now you know. I think it's important that we know how we are showing up in our communities in a way that, like I said, it extends grace, but in a way that is honest, and sometimes, if we're honest, we can't always do that for ourselves. It helps to have tools. We give it to our students. We need to give it to ourselves. 32:37 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's that's so important and I I I'll close with these two questions. I think you've kind of touched on them a little bit. We'll do kind of a lightning round One. What is something you've been learning about lately? You did mention being a lifelong learner. Right, we all are. So I'm curious it could be professional related Prochain. 33:04 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) Fun. I've been learning about Prochain. I have a niece, nazari, and we were at Michael's not too long ago. I live in Virginia and they live in Chicago and I went to go visit and I said, oh, I can make you, tati Clowney, make me a scarf. I was like, yes. So we went to Michael's and she wanted a pink and purple scarf. Well, I have never integrated colors before. So I was like, oh, my goodness, how am I gonna make a pink and a purple scarf, like like I don't even know? So I am learning going to make a pink and a purple scarf Like I don't even know. So I am learning how to integrate colors when crocheting. 33:46 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That is beautiful, and thank you for the backstory of the answer, loved it. And finally, I think you mentioned this a little bit social media, but where can people connect with you? Is that the best place to go? Is there a website? We'll drop a link to the book, of course, as well. 34:00 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) Yes, absolutely so. You can purchase the book on solutiontreecom. It is a publishing company. You can also purchase the book on Amazon. For people who are still like, hey, I'm an Amazon, what is it? Amazonite Making up words now? But you can purchase it on Barnes and Noble has it on their website as well. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn, dr Claudine Kisart. You can also connect with me via email at doc D-O-C-K-I-Z-A-R-T dockisart at gmailcom. You can follow me on Instagram at doc kids art. On Instagram, I do work with schools as a you know consultant to support schools and facilitating assessments and facilitating courageous conversations around biases and things of that nature and not sorry, mr Singleton, I know I said courageous conversation and that might be proprietary for his organization, but having conversations around navigating through biases, ensuring that and again, I also wanna say this before we go Biases is not a DEI thing. 35:21 Hear me well, right, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I understand that there are schools and school districts who really are being mindful about and have to be careful because of legislation regarding saying things like inclusive or equitable or things like DEI stuff. My book is not just a DEI book. My book is again, think about it. Many of these biases were discussed and researched way before the field of DEI, right Way before. 35:56 My book is a school improvement book. My book is a reflective practitioner book for educators, irrespective of what level of education you're in, be it administrator, new teacher, you know classroom teacher that's been in school, that's been an educator for one year, two years, 30 years, 40 years, right, I wanna make sure that readers also understand that you can read this book safely. Right, your school can order this book and have book studies and book conversations. You can call on me to come support your schools with understanding how to navigate through their biases and things of that nature, because it's not a DEI book. This is a school improvement and how to close achievement gaps book. 36:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Appreciate that and for the people who are super into like anti-racism and DEI and like, the implications are very clear for doing this work and getting good results, absolutely, absolutely. 37:06 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) I just I think you know, unfortunately, where we are in life. It's important. And then you said something about anti-racism, right? I am often very mindful when it comes to associating my work with anti-racism because I'm pro-people, right? 37:31 I read this book a while ago about I love Buddhist philosophies, and one of the things that I read in this book it's called it's how to love is like sometimes. And then there's another book it's about the art of compassion and it talks about it. One of the things that they say is whatever you're hyper focused on is what you see. Is whatever you're hyper-focused on is what you see. And so I was like huh. And so they talked about like racism and anti-racism as an example, just, this was some years ago that I read this, and they were like you know, if you're focused on being anti-racist, right, then and this is just for me, like just how I conceptualize things, then your focus, then you're looking at things through a lens of race and racism, right, for me. 38:25 I don't know about everybody else and everybody has their lane. In my lane, I look at things through a pro-people right, not an anti-anything, but a pro-people right, not an anti-anything but a pro, uh, people, how do we, as people who have differences whether it's differences of of race, ethnicity, gender, socialization, uh, social economic ability, height, you know, weight, lookism and all that other kind of stuff how do we still work together? Right, and to me that's not anti anything, it's pro people. 39:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Thank you for that. You've given me a lot to think about and, with that, thank you so much for the entire conversation. I really I've enjoyed your book so much. 39:15 - Dr. Kizart (Guest) I've enjoyed this conversation so much I appreciate being with you. You're welcome. And thank you for having me. I truly appreciate that.
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9/22/2025 229. Build an Equitable Classroom with Dr. Jacobē Bell and Dr. Reshma RamkellawanRead Now
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In this episode of the Time for Teachership podcast, Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan and Dr. Jacobē Bell dive into the transformative power of authenticity and empathy in education. As co-authors of the book Reclaiming Authenticity, they draw from their experience as both educators and researchers to challenge the current narrative that blames teachers for educational shortcomings, advocating instead for systemic change.
The episode emphasizes the importance of educators connecting with their true selves and their students, fostering a liberatory classroom environment that focuses on authenticity, empathy, and collective liberation efforts. The Big Dream Dr. Ramkellawan and Dr. Bell's ultimate vision for education is a system where reciprocal trust and humanization flourish. They dream of a system that works for everybody—students, educators, administration, and families. This vision includes breaking away from traditional structures, such as rigid classroom settings, and embracing a more holistic approach that connects education with the outside world and the land. Mindset Shifts Required To achieve an equitable, flourishing education system, educators can start to shift their mindsets beyond the technical aspects of teaching and embrace authenticity, focusing on connecting with their own identities and those of their students. This shift also involves questioning and disrupting the hidden curriculum that reinforces systemic inequalities. A “hidden curriculum” is the messages we’re sending, whether intended or not—how does the structure or layout of the classroom speak to children? How do our communication styles impact students? This is an important part to unpack and be aware of as educators pursue equity and authenticity in the classroom. Action Steps Authenticity is not just about “being real,” but takes intentional effort on the part of educators. Here are some action steps to get started: Step 1: Understand what harm is, as it can be hard to see. There are different types of harm—spiritual harm, pedagogical harm, or even curricular harm when the student has no connection to the curricula. Meditation can be a helpful practice to work through these areas of harm, acknowledging it and then working through it. Step 2: Engage in self-reflection to better understand and address unconscious biases and harm. Practicing mindfulness by using reflective prompts can help you become more aware of your identity and its impact on your teaching. Step 3: Implement empathy interviews with your students. This is simply talking to them and asking questions like, “Tell me a time you enjoyed class,” or “What’s frustrating you?” You can also try empathy 360 practices, which is students interviewing teachers or teachers interviewing families. This tool and practice helps build empathy between all stakeholders and help folks see each other. Step 4: Embrace the liberation lens. Let’s break out of the box and dream big! For example, bringing elements of Afrofuturism and speculative fiction into the curriculum can encourage freedom dreaming and envision alternative futures. Use creative activities like free writing and artistic expression to inspire students to think beyond the status quo. Challenges? One of the primary challenges in creating liberatory, authentic classrooms is overcoming entrenched systemic structures and biases that perpetuate inequality. Teachers may also struggle with balancing the demands of standardized curricula while fostering authenticity and empathy. One Step to Get Started Educators can start with the simple step of conducting empathy interviews with their students. You don’t have to start big—just a few students at a time to gain deeper insights into their experiences. From there, consider auditing the curriculum and evaluating what voices are most prevalent and which ones are missing. Stay Connected You can connect with Dr. Jacobē Bell on LinkedIn, or Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan on LinkedIn or Instagram. Learn more about their company, Equity Consulting Group, on the website or Instagram, and grab a copy of their book, Reclaiming Authenticity. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guests are sharing Recognizing the Hidden Curriculum with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 229 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Dr Rom Kalawan. Dr Bell, so nice to have you on the Time for Teachership podcast. Thank you so much for being here. 00:09 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here. 00:14 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I am thrilled about the book that you wrote. I'm sure you're both thrilled as well that it is out in the world and probably took a lot of labor Reclaiming Authenticity. I want people to know that this is kind of the frame for the conversation, so we'll link at any point. You're like yep, got to get that. We will link to that in the show notes and the blog post for the episode. But is there anything that either of you want listeners or folks engaging with the episode to know or think about as we kind of enter the conversation about the book? 00:43 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) I can start us off with this. I think it's important for us to know, as authors, we are teachers first and we are coaches, and so we enter this with our teacher heart and our coach hat, and it's written from years of experience of like doing this work. 01:07 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Yeah, to echo what Jacoby said, I think we exist in a time where teachers are often dehumanized, demoralized, seen as the main cause of all of our educational failings as a country, and we wanted to rethink that narrative and shift how teachers can be seen and like poured into when they're receiving lots of external support. 01:34 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That totally tracks. Yes, thank you. Thank you both for that framing and I think your book is, I think, a testament to this first question I was going to ask, but I'll ask it anyway. I can see it was a succinct answer, but this idea of freedom dreaming is really important to me. The show, I think, the field of education, and so Dr Bettina Love describes this as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So I think, thinking about that, what is the freedom dream that you all hold for the field of education? 02:01 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) I think the first thing that comes up for me, rooted in this concept of transformational justice by Maisha N, is that there's reciprocal trust and humanization between students, between teachers, between administration, in that the system works for everybody. Right now, the system doesn't work for anybody, right? It doesn't work for students, it doesn't work for teachers. And so how? 02:34 My dream is for an education system where students flourish, meaning like both academically, but also their inner self as well, right, their sense of belonging, their sense of who they are, being affirmed and validated, and a system where they see people like them in the books they read, et cetera. And also for teachers, a system where teachers flourish as well, because, as we know, it's hard and it doesn't really work for anybody, which is why so many teachers are leaving the field. And so those are the first things that come to mind. And also, just like I dream of something outside the box, right, like right now, we have schools and a brick and mortar and, you know, students sit in their desks X amount of hours a day. What does it look like to take education outside, or connected to the land, or connected to outside? Things outside the walls, you know, make it more real, which might be more exciting for everybody involved as well. So those are the first things that come to mind for me. 03:58 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Yeah, there's also this element in our schooling system that is grounded in zero-sum thinking, grounded in meritocracy, which is a false paradigm. 04:08 There's a gentleman who has done research on that and I'm drawing a complete blank on his name, but he had a TED Talk that came out during COVID, where he talked about it and said we have schooling systems and structures where only a certain percentage are able to thrive to the top and it's kind of the given norm and expectation that a certain percentage are going to fall below. 04:33 And so if we're truly pushing for this concept of equality for everyone, it means meeting everyone where they are based on their readiness, and creating schooling experiences that don't implicitly tell them their worth because of these structures that don't actually fit who they are. 04:55 As a learner, as a product of New York City Public Schools, you know I experienced this firsthand in a number of different ways, and now, working in that system and working across our country in like a number of different school systems that are similar in design and structure, and also as the parent of a school-aged child who's in a new york state school system, I see so many different layers of it where we're all. Each system is perpetuating the same rhetoric right that only certain groups of individuals are quote unquote worthy, wanting to only teach a select few, but because the system is, like, unintentionally, intentionally pressuring us to be in alignment with that rhetoric, and teachers get caught in the middle. And so how do you, as a teacher, find the balance between I want all of my kids to thrive and dream and grow up to be humans and adults in society that will feel so their voice and their lives matter when I have competing expectations. 06:13 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, actually I wonder if this is a good time to talk about that kind of hidden curriculum piece of your book, because I think that illuminates exactly what you're talking about and describing Like. I was kind of floored when I read the table and also very like head nodding like yes, I have seen this. I've seen this play out, when I don't remember exactly what you guys call it, but it's kind of like the class management approach based on kind of like a class of worker in kind of an industrial system or capitalist system, I should say. And so I'm curious if we can kind of an industrial system or capitalist system, I should say. And so I'm curious if we can kind of unpack that a little bit for folks who don't have the book yet. That can kind of give them a preview. 06:55 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) Sure. So when I think about the hidden curriculum, I think about what are the messages that we are sending, intended or not intended? Right Down to like, what is how we set up structure in our classrooms, or what do our walls say? Or what do our communication styles, like, say, and how does that differ based upon who's in front of us, who the students are in front of us or the neighborhoods in which we're teaching, right? So I think the definition we give in the book is that the hidden curriculum refers to the content, topics or ideologies that purport implicit messaging within larger nation states that citizens are expected to internalize. 07:49 And, like you said, capitalism in the US kind of like undergirds that. And so, professor Au, like A-U, I might be saying that wrong is kind of who I read to first when I was first exposed to this. And they talk about the working class and how, like, in the working class, teachers are expected. Teachers expect students to adhere to stricter disciplinary codes, submit to like figures of authority, copy things down and not really make too many decisions on their own. And how oftentimes there's like less creativity for the working class and schooling. And then, when we think about the middle class, teachers often expect students to get the right answers and understand how they got it, to occasionally make decisions, to follow directions, et cetera. And then, like the more fluent professional class teachers, expect students to, like complete more creative activities independently. Choose the methods and materials they'll work with right, there's more creativity, et cetera. Choose the methods and materials they'll work with right, there's more creativity, etc. And then the executive it's like develop analytic powers, make decisions, challenge answers, etc. 09:20 And when I first heard about this as well, I was like oh wow. It helped me also explain, like, some of my experiences living and working in New York City for the last number of years. I've worked in schools all over the city and all different neighborhoods and I remember specifically the first time I was a coach in a school in an affluent neighborhood. That first day I was there, I went into the bathroom and I cried Because up until that point I had been working in neighborhoods that were very different from that, where, you know, oftentimes students were more policed, right, and then being in this school where kids just get out of their seat without permission to go get water because they need water or to go to their backpack, you know they didn't need to get permission and just like juxtaposing that to like, like, don't get out of your seat without permission, like, or just even in creativity, some of them were sitting on the floor during lessons. You know, there wasn't this like you must be in your seats, you must sit up straight, like. 10:19 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) You know, it just felt very different and also the students in that school were from different backgrounds and I just cried because I was like, wow, like from day one kindergarten, they're interacting with schooling very different in ways that create decision making and create and promote creativity and you know all the things there's an additional layer to that too, when we're thinking about the role of teachers, um, in pushing back against these capitalistic systems and, again, capitalism is everywhere we're not gonna, we're not gonna go down that rabbit hole because, because there's like so much that can be said about it, um, particularly as it relates to schooling practice and as jacobi just alluded to, and we adults, children are not really separate from that system. And so I'm going to read a line from page 90 of the book Classism and economics are not the only factors that influence the hidden curriculum. A teacher's intersectional identity can impact the lens through which they see the content and curriculum. In chapter two, page 25, we discuss the concept of intersectionality. 11:42 People's lived differences or lived experiences, rather differ based on the intersection of their identities. And we go on to talk about what is intersectionality. What does it mean to have to unpack who you are as a person and then how that shows up in the classroom? And how do we do that for students? If we think about our own lived experiences as educators, we having an unconsciously indoctrinated with some of the ideology that relates to the hidden curriculum, that relates back to meritocracy Michael Sandel is actually the scholar who talks about that the concept of meritocracy, by the way and so we have to be continuously conscious of how these paradigms are showing up in our daily work and interactions with kids. 12:36 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) Thanks for that, reshma, because I think I was like softly alluding to that in the example where I'm like I went to the bathroom and cried, right, but it was because of the intersectionality, right, the more affluent school was like more white kids with more money, right, and the schools that I'd worked in the majority of my time up to that, um, you know, were students who, um, experienced poverty, um, and were Brown. So, um, thank you, and I also thank you for bringing up capitalism as well, because it's not like I don't think teachers are inherent, like we're born into the system that kind of feeds us towards these outcomes, cause that's what it's designed to do. So I don't, I just want to be clear. I don't think people wake up saying like, oh, I'm going to teach these kids differently because of who they are. No, it's just a part of the bigger system that we're all born into. 13:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, I think this kind of connects at least I'm thinking it connects to kind of the authenticity piece and the kind of framing for the whole book. So I'm curious if we could maybe go there next and connect that. Yeah, that'd be great do you guys want to define it for us and kind of think about that through line? 13:56 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) yeah. So jacoby and I went back and forth around thinking about this concept of authenticity. Uh, throughout writing the book and the definition of it definition of it truly changed over iterations. I would say that the final, like the definition that we landed on, was being able to be continuously conscientious of the identities that you're bringing into the classroom and acting on those identities in a way that allows you to teach and connect to students and humanize them, while also creating a culture of empathy that is reciprocal for you and for students. Back to you. We know that there are lots of ed books out there like Teach Like a Champion. We both came from a charter world and we don't mind some of the principles that are in those books, but when enacted, it divorces teachers from who they are and focuses more on the technicality of teaching as opposed to the softer skills that go into it. 15:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That makes so much sense to me. Go ahead, Dr Browser. 15:08 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) And I was just going to read a line from Chapter 10 in our book where we define authenticity. And it's funny because we talk about like some people may call it, like keeping it real, you know, like who are you keeping it real? Or like having a keen awareness of who you are. So on page 10, we say in this book we define authenticity as being in touch with your inner self, so you don't get lost in pleasing others in ways that are detrimental to yourself and your students. Right, and that's like exactly what Rashma was hinting at in terms of like, when we do technical pieces divorced from who we are, they don't work and we're not keeping it real, and kids know when we're keeping it real and when we're not keeping it real. And also it detracts from our satisfaction in the work as well, at least what I have found. 16:07 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) The quote you read, I have written down in like three different places. So, yes, I'm so glad you brought that up because I was going to yeah, that is totally, totally it. And I think I mean I'm so glad you brought that up because I was going to yeah, that is totally, totally it. And I think I mean I'm looking at my notes now and thinking about, too, how much, like, from a practical sense of like, okay, so I'm thinking about someone who may be new to some of these concepts, who's listening or engaging with the episode and thinking about, okay, so now I've gotten this kind of gut punch of the hidden curriculum thing. Whoa, that's happening. 16:34 I'm realizing that like for me to be authentic, to be joyful, to be like not causing harm, but even more than that, to like enable enacting justice and pursuing justice in my class, like I need to ask myself some questions. I think there's so many illuminating conversations I think it's Dr Bell that you had with, with the kind of a teacher who I'm assuming is kind of a pseudonym throughout and there are so many great questions you asked and great sample responses that were given. I also know that there's a bunch of tools in that chapter on harm. So I don't know if either of you want to talk through any of those pieces. There was like the unpacking harm, processing, harm tools and then the audit questions that people can ask about different aspects of pedagogy, instruction, class culture. There's just there's so much. I think, is what I want to get at. For teachers who are in that space, like I, I need to learn more, I need to do this better. I'm motivated to do this, but I need. 17:28 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) That chapter is kind of define harm right, because sometimes harm can be hard to see, right, we may know that something doesn't feel good to us or et cetera, but not always. 17:53 And so we kind of talk about harm in the different contexts, in terms of spiritual harm Right Dr Patina Love talks about, like spirit murder, right. Or the pedagogical harm, like what happens when with punishment and reward systems or non-rapport, et cetera, or even curricular harm, right, when a kid doesn't have any connections to the curriculum, or social right, going back to what Reshma was saying about intersectionality, neurodiverse you know the list goes on. You know the list goes on. And so some of the tools that we included, one that really sticks out to me is the tool of like meditation. It's something that I was never into, but then, over the pandemic, I got into it more and learned very like concrete tools that, as an educator, helped me work through harm. In our book we talk about harm for students, harm for teachers and like how do you reconcile those two or try not to do harm in those areas? But the first step is really like acknowledging it and then working through it. 19:18 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Yeah, I love that you mentioned this point, jacoby, of like meditation, and I think for listeners, meditation might initially the first thing that comes to mind and I say this as a practicing Hindu that you're going to sit there palms up, you're chanting Aum's. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about that you are engaging in this work of mindfulness through a series of reflective prompts, which we do include throughout the book, um, and there's a graphic on 117 that I think offers a beautiful visualization of what jacob was referring to, that we come into this work with unconscious harm that has lived in us, that has either been enacted on us or we are unintentionally enacting on others. No one really gets out of the public school, k-12 system without being unscathed in some way, shape or form, and then, if you choose to become an educator, you go back into that system and these unconscious things just kind of show up in your work without realizing it, and so the visual that I'm describing is essentially a tree, and then you have the roots, which are the like, unconscious ways in which the harm might live within us. 20:29 You have the perpetuation of harm, which is where you know the larger system is represented by a rain cloud and it's like raining down on us and we are unintentionally like putting back on others. Then it's manifested through the growth of the tree, but then, when we stop, reflect and act, we can go towards like a liberatory experience which is symbolized by the sun. You know I'm an optimist, so I think I believe that educators want to do well by children. I don't think teachers, generally speaking, go into this field wanting to inflict harm, which is why the chapter is like parentheses try to to no harm. It's just how do we become more mindful of what we're doing and how we're interacting and engaging with students? 21:25 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) And a couple of the tools related to like what we're talking about. I think one of the first tools we talk about is empathy interviews, and empathy interviews are where you interview your students as a group or one-on-one, like tell me about a time you enjoyed class, or tell me about a time when you felt frustrated in class, why. You know it's. It's under like, what undergirds empathy interviews is this desire to like understand students and like what are they telling you they need from you to help you adjust your classroom instruction, etc. But empathy interviews don't just have to go one way, teacher to student. They can also go the other way as well. So there's also something called Empathy 360, where it's like all around view, you know. So then students are interviewing teachers, like if you had three wishes for our class, what would they be, you know? Or then also teachers can interview caregivers or families, like what would a joyful and good school look like for your child? So it's like this 360 view and it's a tool that builds empathy between all stakeholders in a way to help folks see each other. It's so often to get frustrated of like oh, why can't they just do this thing, or why isn't this happening? Or, you know, we've all had those days and Empathy 360 interviews really help us see each other but then also synthesize into like concrete next steps and as coaches we've seen some really powerful work come out of empathy interviews. 23:19 Something we do more on the teacher side in terms of like processing potential harm and moving forward is writing an apology to students. You know, acknowledge the wrong Students are so forgiving, so, so forgiving. I know I've had times where something small, like one of my pet peeves, is always like when students would sharpen their pencil with electric pencil right in the middle of my mini lesson. I'd be like, are you serious? You know, but my reaction like that didn't warrant that reaction. You know what I mean. So then it's like I had to apologize and you know whatnot. But so that's one of the tools we offer. And then another tool we offer is like write a letter to your early self, so your early career self. You know what do you want them to know? What is something positive you've benefited from hearing back that you would have benefited from back then. So, like Roshma said, the exercises are really meant to reflect and help people move forward. 24:31 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love that minute, I love that you mentioned that. But the interviews I come from the kind of student voice field of research and so there's so much in your book that's like on co-construction and just like all of the pieces that I'm like, yes, this and so that kind of leads me to think about the Afrofuturism chapter, which I adored, and so the liberatory lens examples where you kind of were just dreaming of here's what, here's what it could be, and I thinkored, and so the liberatory lens examples where you kind of were just dreaming of here's what, here's what it could be, and I think, dr Bell, you got it. That's the beginning to talking about your freedom dreamer, like let's think about connecting to place and like being outside of the walls, like what are some of the things, either from the book or just things you would, you would add down in this conversation that you can kind of like dream up or envision for a more liberatory school, either structure, practice, way of being. 25:25 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) That's a big question, sorry, well, I was trying to let rashma go first, but I can go first well, I know the question was for you like, because I you know, in full transparency, jacoby um is a big proponent of afrofuturism in schools and learning spaces and in our work she, like, has brought it in um to professional development. 25:46 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) So I was like I feel like you should lead us in this one Kobe. 25:51 Okay, I got this. So Afrofuturism. So I find it hard sometimes because we're so conditioned by how things are and it's like easy to think about, like little changes, but when you want to think on like a macro level or whole country, like redo level, it can get overwhelming, you know, and sometimes it's like am I dreaming big enough? Right, like um. And so I turn to Afrofuturism and like speculative fiction more generally to, because where else are dreams bigger than in these, like worlds that have been built in books? And so Afrofuturism is a Black cultural lens used to consider the future, lens used to consider the future. It's also used for other things, but that's like how we take it up in the book, um, as a way to divest from the like status quo, um, and like think about something different. And there's like different tenants that come up, um with afrofuturism. So we I wrote down like some guiding questions to begin to dream what are the things we want to disrupt, being able to notice and name them first, but then also thinking about what are the habits that we need to have to freedom, dream, but then also this idea of centering humanity in it all. So thinking about the full person and the full humanization, humanization, um of folks. And thinking about like to deny someone else's like. 27:35 As Pablo Freire says, like to deny someone else's humanization is also to deny one's own um. And how it's like. Yes, it's an individual, like I can do what I can do in my classroom, but it's also like a collective endeavor as well and it involves everyone working together students, teachers, parents, admin, like you know, people working together. And then, like when thinking about full liberation, thinking about how the noticing and naming, but also like critical reflection and action, are necessary to transform Um. 28:13 So I know that's a mouthful, but I think like the core idea that I'm trying to say is like, within our dreaming, centering the humanity um and then using afrofuturism to think outside the box. So I had folks in a pd do a free writing activity, you know, thinking about, like, what brings you joy, where do you feel freedom, where do you feel more happy, what are the conditions, what do you see, hear, smell, and using that as the basis for dreaming. And then drawing a picture or doing a free ride or writing a poem or something that kind of gets at that to help folks dream, and myself included, to dream bigger. Sorry, I forgot the original question. 29:08 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I was answering. If you want to share, that was excellent, that was excellent for me. And then if you want to share some of the pieces that were on, I don't know if there was a chart there that had like a bunch of examples of like here's what it could look like through a libertarian lens. Like what could education be that it typically isn't currently? 29:30 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) I think that's in here, jacoby, is that okay? All right, so the chart that you're referring to is on 151, table 6.1. But before we talk about that, I just want to echo what Jacoby said, with drawing folks listeners' attention to page 154. If you have the book, if not, I'm going to describe it for you. The three habits that Jacoby was talking about. We broke them down to say what is habits of being, habits of listening, I'm sorry. Habits of living, habits of teaching, and then underneath each, there are a series of guiding questions, definitions and examples so you can understand what this would look like in real time. 30:08 Then, in Table 6.1, we brought it back to here are some of the structural elements that exist within schooling systems. So you have the general structure of the school, you have curriculum and instruction, you have student agency Three powerful elements that can really, when shifted to take more of a dreaming based standpoint or afrofuturistic standpoint and open up the doors for possibility. And so one of the examples that we talked about was with curriculum and rethinking what gets to be taught. So this goes back to our earlier conversation around the hidden curriculum right, like why aren't we teaching about more global civilizations in our history classes. Yes, I know, in the New York State curriculum you have, like the introductory cursory dip, your toe in the water of, like ancient civilizations. But why aren't we doing a more deeper dive, right? Why aren't we unpacking what schooling looked like in those spaces, what children might have learned, and then bringing that back into our own classrooms and classroom paradigms? 31:23 Students take more of a sociocratic approach to decisions. Where students are involved, where we put a referendum out and kids have a voice, or students have a desired outcome for their classroom or their schooling community that they are putting it forth, advocating, pushing for the change, and leaders and educators are open to hearing that. They might even I mean some people will say well, that's student government. Yes, but depending on how student government is structured, it could still limit the voices of everyone. Right, where some students might see that as an elite position that you have to advocate for a campaign, whereas from a ground-up, roots-based approach it allows everyone to have input in a say. 32:10 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Oh, that totally resonates, because I my dissertation was kind of on that, like problematizing student governments and like this needs to be bigger and you need to go outside of, like planning prom or whatever the thing is right, like, yes, okay, thank you for naming that. I realized that we only have a few more minutes. Wow, time flies, and so I'm curious to know I think maybe like two questions, if we could fit them in, we'll do like a lightning round One. We've talked about a lot your book has far more than we've talked about what is maybe one step that people could take after they're done with the episode and they're like I want to just start something now, like I want to do something immediately that's going to help me be in alignment, show up, be authentic in these ways that you describe. Any recommendations? 32:58 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) I think too low lift, but high impact Things might. Things might be the first one to empathy interviews. It doesn't take that much prep time to hear from students, parents et cetera. Um, it doesn't have to be everyone. You could pick five students, um, so I think that's one. I also know it's summer, though, so some people may not be in school. Um, I think another like thing that's easy to do is audit your curriculum. Look at, like, whose voices are the most prevalent there, what's missing. And I know a lot of districts mandate you have to do this curriculum and you have to. Ok, but then how do we layer on, shout out to Goldie Muhammad, how do we do like text layering or something to bring in other voices as well? 33:55 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Those are my two too, those are like the easiest entry. 34:00 Yeah, they're like the easiest entry points into doing this work and low effort, high impact. I think the other component would be to think about just start with reflection, and I would say we have a lot of great guiding reflection questions in our book, but I think the two that you would want to start with are what does it mean to create a dream-based liberatory classroom? And then the second would be what would my life be like if I had access to that dream-based liberatory classroom? Um and we're not saying to have folks have like an existential crisis- at all right, it's more so. 34:49 it's more so thinking about if I can envision what a like a liberatory classroom like feels, like, sounds, like I could touch it. I can see it, smell it. What would that have looked like if someone had enacted that space for me as well? 35:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Those are fantastic. Thank you for those questions. Last question for you all we're going to link to the book in the show notes, but I wanted to know you know where can people get in touch with you or follow the work that you're doing? 35:18 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) Yes, the best place to get in touch with me is via LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn, so you can shoot me a message there. Yeah, and you can get our book from Amazon, from Solution Sharia. 35:35 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Yeah, you can actually contact me through LinkedIn. My social media handle is Risha0927 for Instagram, and then you can contact me via email Reshma at equityconsultinggrouporg. 35:52 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Dr Ramkelewan Dr Bell, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and for your amazing book. 35:57 - Dr. Jacobē Bell (Guest) Thank you. 35:59 - Dr. Reshma Ramkellawan (Guest) Thank you so much yeah. 
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In this episode, we talk with Jillayne Flanders and Dr. Orinthia Harris—Jill and Dr. OH—about the critical and necessary shift from compliance to compassion in education, particularly early childhood education. They introduce themes from their two books, Little Learners, Big Hearts, and Advancing Empathy and Equity in Early Childhood Education, both of which are centered on the heart—compassion as the root of all equity practices.
Advocating for embedding empathy and equity into teaching practices, Jill and Dr. OH offer practical tools to educators to move from compliance to compassion in their classrooms, centering everything they do on values of compassion, empathy, and equity. The Big Dream Jill articulates a powerful vision for education: "That every child sees themselves reflected, somehow, in wherever they are in the world.” This involves zooming out to look around the classroom to see if there are posters, pictures, books, or other things that represent each child, their families, and cultures. Dr. OH continues, dreaming of an educational space where all teachers are mindful of their interactions with students, basing them on compassion. This takes emotional intelligence on the part of the educator to self-regulate and interact with a child in a way that encodes in each student’s mind that they are worthy, belong, and matter. Mindset Shifts Required Shifting from compliance to compassion requires one big mindset shift: seeing teaching, simply, as a series of interactions. So, how are you interacting with students? Is it rooted in compassion and empathy? By shifting to this perspective, educators can focus on each interaction with a student as an opportunity to be compassionate, meeting students where they are. Action Steps Shifting from a mindset of compliance to one of compassion starts with the heart. Dr. OH and Jill developed the acronym HEART+ to show educators what this practically looks like. Here are the six steps to embody an anti-racist and pro-human educational practice: H—Hope: Start with hope. It’s what drives action and makes change. While everything can feel overwhelming, you can focus on what’s possible in your context. No, racism isn’t going to end in your lifetime, but it can end in your classroom—that’s hope. H—Education: This step is about self-education, where teachers learn about both themselves and their students. Educate yourself about what students are dealing with and suffering with. It’s not their responsibility to educate you, but yours to learn. A—Acknowledge: After you’ve learned about what your students and their families are experiencing, you must acknowledge the suffering they’re going through. We cannot abolish what we cannot acknowledge! R—Resolution: You’ve learned, you’ve acknowledged—now, what to do? Resolve to take action. Dr. O and Jill lay out many practical action steps educators can do to implement in their classrooms, meetings, or professional development settings. T—Teaching: Teaching is nothing more than a set of interactions—are they based on compassion? How are you teaching and interacting? Keep this mindset in place and focus on that individual student interaction level. PLUS: The + in the HEART+ acronym accounts for individuality and specificity to each educator, classroom, or community situation. You need to adapt and change to your specific context, not just following protocols or using resources robotically. Challenges? One of the significant challenges in this work is navigating the discomfort and resistance that may arise when discussing equity and diversity. Leaders must be prepared to support faculty and staff through these difficult conversations, encouraging self-reflection and examination of unconscious biases, while using tools and resources to support their work. One Step to Get Started One simple step for educators to get started is a mindset shift: have an internal conversation and ask, “Where am I coming from? What are my internal biases?” It’s a hard thing to do, but an important place to start. Educators can also consider a simple action step to take, such as integrating children's literature into your classroom or faculty meetings—it opens conversations and is a non-threatening entry point for meaningful discussions on identity and diversity. Stay Connected You can find this Dr. OH online under the names @STEMearly on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube and @OrinthiaHarrisPhD on Instagram as well. Both Dr. OH and Jill are associated with the Center for Educational Improvement, which you can learn more about on their website. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guests are sharing their video series How to Choose PD that Honors Early Childhood Teachers with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 228 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Jill and Dr O. Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Hey, thank you for having us. Hi so excited you're here I'm really excited to talk about. I have both books on my table here, so we have Little Learners, big Hearts, which is kind of the teacher version, if I've got that right, and then the Advancing Empathy and Equity in Early Childhood Education, the leader kind of companion book. I've read them both. I'm excited to dig in. Is there anything that you both kind of want to frame before we jump into the questions today around the book, or kind of what's on your mind? 00:34 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, please do, Orinthia, you are really good at setting the stage. 00:39 - Dr. OH (Guest) Well, first of all, thank you for having us. We're excited. I'm glad you read both books and enjoyed both books. You know everything we do is centered around the heart and what compassion and empathy and equity really look like. So just want to center this conversation on. We're really interested in moving from compliance to compassion and that's what these both of these books are really all about. Especially in an age where words like equity and inclusion are being demonized, we really want to set the conversation that the basis of all equity work is compassion, which is a work of the heart. So hopefully in this conversation you'll hear our passion for that come through, versus anything that might be considered divisive and like. I don't understand why these terms are being demonized, but I want to acknowledge that they are and just say from the get this is really about compassion, it's not about compliance. It's not about checking a box. It's about what does advancing empathy and equity really look like when it comes to our teaching practices. 01:48 - Jill Flanders (Guest) That's so well said, erinthea. And by really focusing on early childhood education, we're clear that three-year-olds don't come to us alone. They come to us with their families, and the conversation then is extended not from what just happens in your classroom or your program, but to what we can encourage around compassion and empathy for families and how they interact in the world. And I think the other theme that you're going to hear from us today is that it's not okay to do nothing. We're really going to suggest some easy things that can happen by the end of the program and then some more challenging things that educators and parents might want to choose to do to elevate compassion. 02:37 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Love that and, as I was saying to Jill right before having a doctorate, that I, as a parent of a three-year-old, right now really connected on the parent level as well as the educator level, so really excited about that piece, feels really valuable. We're already like using some of the strategies and just like thinking about the approaches, so it has been very helpful. Thank you, um and and I think one of the big questions I want to start with, so we'll get really big and then we'll come back to the book. But but I really love Dr Bettina loves like words and the way she says things, and so she talks about freedom, dreaming by saying their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, which I love, and I think it's really connected to your book. So I'm just I'm curious from each of you what is your kind of big dream that you hold for education? 03:21 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, absolutely that every child sees themselves reflected, somehow reflect who you are in your family, what's your culture. We'll talk about that a little bit in personal terms for us, but it's one of the easiest first steps is just take that big scan of what's going on around you. So, absolutely connecting to Bettina Love in terms of are you reflected in your daily world? 04:08 - Dr. OH (Guest) That's good. I think my big dream is that teachers would be mindful in all of their interactions with students and that their interactions would be based on compassion, which would take emotional intelligence on the part of every educator and them being able to regulate their own emotions because kids can take us there. We say, oh, it's just a three-year-old, it's just a four-year-old, but they can take us there. And so my big dream is that teachers everywhere would be mindful in their interactions with students, knowing that when they interact with students, they're actually encoding something in their brain. And I would love for teachers to consistently encode in the brains of students, especially young students birth to five, that they're worthy and that they belong and that, even if they're getting on my nerves and I'm at my short fuse, I have enough emotional intelligence to know and self-regulation to know when I interact with this child, I am encoding something in their brain and I would love it for it always to be to encode you're worthy, you belong, you matter, even if you're getting on my nerves. 05:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That resonates deeply. Thank you for that. That is really good, and I think so. I think this might be a good time to introduce the hard or hard plus framework that you all talk about, because I think that really grounds and connects to what you're talking about. Does one of you want to maybe start and the other can jump in? 05:43 - Dr. OH (Guest) I'll jump in. And so this came about as we were doing this work and teachers were saying what can I practically do to be anti-racist, pro-human in my practice? Like we learned about it, we're learning about, but what can I do? What does that process look like? And so I came up with this acronym HEART, because it really is. Equity is a work of heart, right? Anti-racism, it's all a work of heart. And so the acronym is the H is for hope. 06:09 You have to start with hope. We're not going to end racism in our lifetime, but you can end it in your classroom. And if you don't start from a point of I can do something in my classroom in my lifetime, in my generation, then it's just going to seem too big and you'll get frustrated. And again we talk about how hope wishful thinking is not hopeful living right, when you have hope, hope has feet, which means I'm going to do something about it. And so you have to come in, not with the mindset of the savior complex, and also not with the mindset of being oh my gosh, this is too big, but with the mindset of in my classroom, in my time, in my lifetime, even if it's just this one family, this one student, I can make a difference. So you have to start with hope and then you have to go to the education piece. You have to educate yourself and we say self-education about your families, your students and what they're dealing with. What is the suffering that they're dealing with? It is not their responsibility to, it's not their responsibility to educate you. You have to educate yourself because they're the ones going through the trauma and the you know all the things. And so a lot of times when the Black Lives Matter movement happened and Black people as a culture were experiencing a lot of trauma Like I didn't watch the George Floyd tape, I didn't watch any of it, and my kids didn't watch the news or any of it People were coming to me saying, well, what can we do? What can we do? It's almost like if you lose a loved one and you're grieving and people are asking you what should we do? What should we do? No, just pick up a mop, bring a casserole, don't ask me Right. And so if you're dealing with students and families that are dealing with suffering, you have to educate. What is their history? What are they dealing with? What are some of the things that I can do? 08:03 And once you educate yourself, then that comes to the A, which is the acknowledgement. You have to acknowledge the suffering that people are going through, because oftentimes we see it, we educate ourselves with it, but then we want to turn the blind's eye. You cannot abolish what you will not acknowledge right and so now that? And you cannot acknowledge what you do not acknowledge right and so now that? And you cannot acknowledge but you do not know. So now that we know right, cause we've done the self-education, let us acknowledge that this is an issue. And then let's go to the R, let's make a resolution. What am I gonna do? I resolve to blank and we have a ton of resources in both books of practical things that you can do. I resolve to blank and we have a ton of resources in both books of practical things that you can do your resolutions. These are things you can do with your staff, with your students, with your families, with your own children. We give you a ton of resources so you can say you know what for this school year, I resolve to do this at the first staff meeting of every month, or I resolve to do that and then the last T. The T is for teaching. 09:12 We subscribe to the definition that teaching is nothing more than a set of interactions. Right, and so are our interactions based in compassion. How are you teaching? How are you interacting? I did a session yesterday and we talked about moving from compliance to compassion. If a student says I need water, and you throw the water at them or you give them water in a dirty glass, did you really give them what they needed? Yes, you resolved, I'm going to give water, but did you give water in a way that is receptive, that the student could, you know, literally drink the water? You know so that T is so important, because we have to remind people that teaching is nothing more than a series of interactions. So, with that resolution, yeah, we're going to do this staff meeting once a month and we're going to dig into the activity at the end of chapter five, because it's on bullying and we really like that. How are you presenting that activity to your staff? Are you just throwing them a worksheet? All right, guys, let's do this work Like no. 10:23 And then we added a plus. We said heart plus. The reason why we added the plus is because we understand that every school, every family, every community is unique, and so the plus means what are you going to do to make this cater to your school, right? So maybe we have one through 10 and you may need number 11, or maybe we have one through 10 and five doesn't resonate with your building. Okay, then, don't do number five. 10:54 A lot of times we get these resources and we want to use them as like robotic, and we cannot do that, and so that's why we added the plus for schools to be mindful that this has to be catered to your population, because it's so important that we honor those whom we serve and we don't throw stuff at them that may not fit into their culture, their tribal culture. You know their, whatever their culture, their religious culture, whatever it is in the building. So when you're looking at the heart again, you start with hope. Then you self-educate, you acknowledge the education that you've gained, you make a resolution what are you going to do? And then, when it comes to my teaching, my interaction, how am I going to do that? And I'm going to go to plus. I'm going to make sure this works for my people. That was a lot. 11:54 - Jill Flanders (Guest) There you go All of the training in 10 minutes. We're also really cognizant that it's not always in any kind of sequential order. Yes, you can spell the word heart, but you may need to jump ahead, you may need to go back and revisit, you need to read the room. In other words, and from my perspective as a former principal, that's probably the number one building block. It's starting with, as Dr Rose said, the relationships you're building, the communication you're having, getting to know your program, your community, your faculty and your families, and what are the things that will resonate with them and your families and what are the things that will resonate with them. 12:45 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love it. There's so much in there that is just like so connected. I just I love, even just foundationally, that teaching is a series of interactions, right, and this idea that it is dynamic, it is not I'm going to throw this stuff at you Like literally. I'm not going to just literally throw it at you. Yeah, okay, this is resonating deeply. Thank you all. So I think I want to make sure we get to the leader pieces, so I'm trying to pace us on time too. I'm curious, while we can like be in the teacher space for a minute, if there is a particular strategy or kind of aha moment or like thing you want to lift up from the book and I can share a couple of mine. If you want to like kick it off with that, oh yeah, I'd love to. So I really liked. 13:18 I liked the children's literature. Having a three-year-old, I immediately got Strictly no Elephants, which has become an immediate favorite. So thank you for that recommendation. But also, you know, all of the analysis of made total sense to me. So, like the sweet words, jar loves, like the calmness elevator, just like the rainbow breathing. There are so many things we're already doing in my home now because of this book. So thank you. Are there favorite pieces for you all from that? 13:53 - Jill Flanders (Guest) classroom lens, the teacher lens for you all from that classroom lens, the teacher lens. The children's literature, I think, is probably the least controversial method to begin in many, many different layers. So when we talk a little bit more about the leadership part of this, I would also begin there with children's literature In my heart. I would love to see any principal starting off faculty meetings with one good children's book that opens the conversation. I would love to see this in middle school and high school because the conversations so often have not happened there. But what a way to just open the door. We also, the book, talk about taking different paths with children's literature. You can go to Ibram Kendi and start off with Anti-Racist Baby if you really want to jump right in, but you don't have to. 14:48 There are lots of other choices and I think one of my favorite things to look at you mentioned it about the percentages of children's books that are based with animal characters. It takes a little while. You might want to spend some time up and down the aisles, but I've been looking more, you know, more focused on books that have actual photographs of real kids, real families, and this was one that just melted my heart my youngest daughter's married to a Puerto Rican, a handsome Puerto Rican man, and their two daughters have very different shades of skin. Alina the oldest, at one point when she was three or four, announced to me out of the blue, as three-year-olds do Grimmie, my skin matches daddy's, but Elise, the younger sister, Elise's skin matches mommy's, and you know what? I think that's really cool and we're both Puerto Rican, but you know what? Grimmy, Mommy's never going to be Puerto Rican. 15:53 So it's like, okay, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I knew in my educator brain. I should jump on this as a teachable moment. Of course, I just sat there with my mouth open and said, yep, you're right. But I found some awesome books that you know. One in particular is the Color of Us, and when I did bring it home and showed Alina, her first reaction at age three was to match her arm to the photos in the book. Now, we should be doing that. We have to have the opportunities for kids to be able to do that. 16:24 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Absolutely, Dr O. Do you have a favorite strategy or piece from the book? 16:29 - Dr. OH (Guest) I would also say the chart that allows leaders to know what books are where on the continuum of the conversation. So leaders are equipped by saying okay, if I start with Born on Water, here's some of the things that I can do. Here's some of the conversations that I have, and I think the book recommendation and the chart also will help leaders disarm their staff. Because when you hear Born on Water, you immediately like if you have never read the book and you only subscribe to the news media that is divisive, you automatically are like no we can't do it. 17:10 But if you actually pick up the book and read it and read through it, it's like, oh, this book is really about her being proud to actually be an American, proud of where she comes from, proud of where she is, and the book ends with her drawing an American flag. So not sure how that's anti-patriotic, but with this chart and this guide, it allows our leaders to give them. Okay, if you take this book, here's the routes in which you can go. And I think that for me, that was my favorite resource, because it wasn't simply a book list right, because anybody can give a book list but it's a book list that shows you if you're ready to dive right in turn some heads. 17:56 Here's some books. And also here's why we chose to put these books in this category, because here is some of the pushback you might get by bringing this book up. But here is the conversations that you can have. So we don't leave you hanging with just a book list and say, here you go, that you can have. So we don't leave you hanging with just a book list and say, here you go. And I thought that that resource is super, super helpful for leaders and people who really want to get their staff involved and have staff that are reluctant to do the work because they are buying into the divisive language that is being surrounded in these topics. 18:39 - Jill Flanders (Guest) You know Dr O really touches on an important part there. This can be incredibly uncomfortable and we want to acknowledge that. These are uncomfortable conversations, no matter where you start and where you lead with it. We've tried to come up with you know, be sensitive about it and come up with non-threatening, you know openers, but buried in it is taking the time to do some examination of unconscious bias, to do some reflection with you know, again as a school leader or program leader with your faculty and staff and man, that's going to be hard and we're we're honest about that. 19:22 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, that's reminding me of, like the tiered system of equity supports image that you have and so connected to the heart plus model, right, I'm thinking about like the education piece, like the info building as tier one, and then you have the tier two we're reducing bias. I love all. I mean I guess we'll go, we'll shift over to leader pieces. I love the kind of decision-making conversations that you have about that and I think I think the most interesting piece for me, I think paired with the this tiered system visual, was this idea of strategic planning with a healing focus, and I thought that that was really profound because, right, we think about like the divisiveness, right, dr O, that you were mentioning, and so I think the healing seems to me to be the path forward. Just the folks in education spaces who are talking about that. It's like it's deeply resonating, at least with me. I don't know about everyone else, but I think that that speaks to something that is so counter to what we see in popular media and news programming and all the things that, right, are divisive, and so I'm curious and I mean I'll again, I'll just, I'm just like repeating back to you things in the book because I just loved it, but I love that you. 20:28 You know you had the Desmond Tutu quote, who I just absolutely love about like we don't heal in isolation. You had the research on like when you add feelings to decision making, it actually improves decisions. I think of conversations I've been in and strategic planning conversations where it is so kind of traditional and like authoritarian and this is the way we do this right and we leave feelings at the door and we don't incorporate those into decisions. And I kind of want to like meld all this stuff into one question, which is can you say a bit about this idea of healing focused strategic planning? Particularly I'm curious about, like how you've had success with folks coming to that, or has there been resistance to folks coming to that or a challenge from folks approaching it in this way, and what have you kind of done to coach them through it? Sorry, that was a really big one. 21:26 - Jill Flanders (Guest) The reality is the lack of time to really spend on this and again, I'm speaking from the perspective of a principal of, you know, of a public school. 21:37 It's important to make the time because it, you know, a yes, it's going to be uncomfortable. B it's probably a conversation that has not happened with faculty and staff and the commitment to, you know, opening the conversation and then supporting the hard stuff as it erupts, because I can actually say that I have had faculty members that have had to leave the conversation, that it's just, they just can't manage it, but being, you know, acknowledging that, being open to taking care of yourself and what you need to do, but not giving up. And you know we can also tell you this, you know our proposals here. What we've written about is still, you know, fairly new. We're still working in some pilot programs in some schools with you know, how did this go? What would you change? What would you do next? And so that's one of the things we're really eager to hear from schools and school leaders and programs about what did and didn't you know go well and how can we add to our conversation. 22:46 - Dr. OH (Guest) I was going to also add that you have to make the time because if you don't, you'll be moving forward with broken pieces. So if I break my ankle and I don't allow time for it to heal, it's going to reset but it'll always be broken. Like I have a finger that you can't tell right now but I can't straighten it out because I took too long to get the cast. So by the time I went back to do the proper healing, yeah, it's fine, I can move it, but I don't have full use of it. And so I think that's what's happening is we are acknowledging the hurt and the trauma that has happened in our environments, and that's great right. That goes back to that acknowledgement piece. I think we're doing a better job as a whole in education of acknowledging Maybe not necessarily acknowledging some of the historical past, but I think collectively acknowledging that there is a collective trauma that happened from COVID. I think we're united on that right. And so there's this united acknowledgement that there is some healing that needs to happen because of trauma, but there's not the space to make it happen. And so students are self-correcting and healing without the proper, I guess, support and when that happens you're moving forward on broken pieces and there's always that trauma trigger that's in the back somewhere and when that make mistakes and to be themselves. 24:24 I had an incident with a student and actually he and for whatever reason, blew up and wrote some really nasty things about the teacher, curse words, on his paper. The teacher saw the paper and said, took the paper and said okay, bud, when you're ready to come back, you come back. If you need more paper to write, I'll give you more. The teacher never, and I mean he called the teacher some things on this paper. And when we were talking about the incident with the teacher, I just was wondering like hey, did that not upset you? Did it not make you mad? Like this is an incident that is principle worthy, ok, especially some of the things that he said, that they were a little bit racial also, and from you know, because it was two different races of kids student, I mean student teacher and he said Dr O, that's not who that kid is. He was frustrated we all get frustrated, I'm not going to take it personally and he just let it go because he was like that's, that student didn't need a trip to the principal's office. That student needed someone to say I get angry too. And you know what he said, dr O. 25:47 At the end of the day, that student came back up to me and said you know, mr So-and-so, I really apologize, I shouldn't have written that stuff about you. And he said buddy, don't even worry about it, I know I get that way. And then he said I say some things to my wife sometimes that I shouldn't say, and so I sympathize. You know what I mean. So I think, given that time and that space for students to really feel safe and feel seen which means we cannot let the rules speak louder than compassion we can't, we can't. 26:18 And so that requires us for teachers to let go of perfection and really practice self-compassion. 26:26 And also, how do I connect with my students? 26:30 And in order for that to happen, like Jill says, you have to give the space. 26:35 And when I say the space, I mean the space in staff meetings where leadership says hey guys, I know this, this and this is the policy, but if you have a student that you know this is not their nature and they're on 100, and you're able to get them from 100 back down to one and move on with your day, please don't write an incident report. 27:09 I'm giving you permission to not report that because some teachers feel like, oh my God, I have to report it. That's what they say and I'm going to. That's what I mean when I say giving teachers the permission to be compassionate, giving them the permission to say please, don't let these rules speak louder than compassion, because what is the goal of education at the end of the day? Right? So what is our ultimate goal for these students at the end of the day? And if we don't put healing back into the conversation, we're going to continue to keep moving forward and not really fully heal to the point where we're able to use all of our you know resources to the best of our ability, because we're going to be turning out students that still have trauma that they haven't dealt with and, subsequently, adults that still have trauma. 28:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) And subsequently adults that still have trauma. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yes, I'm just like head-sapping all over the place. My parenting brain is very into the Good Inside podcast with Dr Becky Kennedy, and so the thing that's always in my head is most generous interpretation, our MGI, and so I've like tried to practice that. I mean we could do that out loud with kids, like we'll we'll get cut off by a driver or something and we'll just be like, hmm, that person must've been in a hurry, I hope everyone's okay, right, like what is the way that we can reconceive like a perceived hurt and like you can practice in tiny ways? I just that would be such a beautiful educational experience if everyone interacted in that way. 28:40 - Dr. OH (Guest) A hundred percent, and I think it was Thoreau that said it's not, it's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. 28:49 - Jill Flanders (Guest) I was just going to say that We've been reading the same things on Facebook today, dr Rowe, but Dr Rowe just did an absolute masterclass in modeling what we're talking about as well, and this is also close to our hearts that the leaders that are trying to open up the space and the time for this work are also modeling at the same time with the other adults that they work with. Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. 29:24 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, oh, that's totally true. Yeah, right, because the kids replicate the things that they see us do, right, all the time. 29:33 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Right and yes, and yet we're not perfect. I think that's just as important. I mean, we're going to blow up, we're going to say those things to whoever cut us off in traffic, but acknowledging it doesn't. And here's another Dr O thing Acknowledgement does not mean acceptance, so applied in a variety of ways. 29:53 - Dr. OH (Guest) A hundred percent, because they mirror that children mirror. That's what they do. And what I say is could things be the way they are? Because you're the way you are, and what one thing could you change? That can change everything. You can change the way you see your students, your staff and your coworkers. If you see them differently, you will treat them differently. 30:16 And acceptance does not mean agreement. Right Acknowledgement doesn't mean I agree with this behavior. You know away with this notion that being compassionate to a child somehow means that I'm okay with the fact that they just threw a chair across the room. No, I'm not okay with the fact that they threw the chair across the room, but is me going to a hundred going to get them to where I need them to be? Is me actually the opposite? They might pick up a second chair, you know. But it definitely takes that the way. Our lenses have to change for how we see our students and also how we see ourselves, because the reason why a lot of us can't be compassionate with our students is because we're not compassionate with ourselves. 31:15 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Just going to let that one sit for a minute. Yes, yeah, that's absolutely true. All right, we wow, we have gone a lot of places. This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm looking at time Um, we'll do maybe like a little lightning rounds here with a few final questions. Um, what is kind of one practice or strategy or even mindset, like just way of thinking about others, um, or about things, uh, that you would say someone could start right now, like so they order the book, it's in the mail, but right now they want to start and do something while it's on its way. What would be that one thing? 31:55 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Jill, you go first. Yeah, I've got about six in my head. You know I'm going to sort through this and start with yourself, I think. Have an internal conversation. Where are you coming from? What might be some of your internal bias, which is a hard thing to do. It's not the easiest place to start. So then, part two is the easy place to start is what is the do? Something that you can do right away, and I will revert back to my children's literature. Find one book. Find one book that speaks to you. 32:30 - Dr. OH (Guest) That's good. That's good. I would say the one thing you can do is try to see it from the other person's perspective. So every time you feel offended or upset or frustration, or your children are getting on your nerves, you don't like your administrator, whatever those feelings that come up that are getting you to a negative state, a negative state, how might that other person be feeling Like? What is their perspective? Because, at the end of the day, everything we experience is ultimately just our perception of it and it's not the whole picture. 33:13 So can I put myself in your shoes and say how might you see this? Say how might you see this? And just simply doing that can bring us back to a state of where we are, a state of calm, a state of where we're not just reacting right, we're actually processing what is really happening in this situation. Why did my administrator say this? Why did this student go off in this way? How what could be happening from their perspective? And start centering others, which is really hard, especially when your amygdala is hijacked and you're in your feelings. But I would say, practice perspective taking of others. 34:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Beautiful suggestions. This question is for fun what have each of you been learning about lately? It could relate to our conversation or just be totally random. 34:15 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, I'm dying to talk about this. Our focus was on anti-racism and, just because of everything, we were focused on Black children, black families. I have wandered off into. I need to know more about Indigenous families, indigenous cultures, and you know, I'm in Massachusetts. I have connected with educators in the Wampanoag tribe and there are children's books. Oh my gosh, I have a whole new pile and just I mean just the history that I was not aware of is crushing in many ways, but I'm doing something about it. 35:00 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I am learning in many ways, but I'm doing something about it. I am learning. I have to say Keep On A Muck is one of our favorite books. We jumped right to that, as we did Born On the Water and Keep On A Muck, and we should have probably started with like the Colors Of Us Right in. 35:13 - Dr. OH (Guest) Right in For me. I've been learning about a lot about biomarkers and genetic testing. I recently took a position, a contractual position, as the program director for the Color of Wellness, which is a program that's under the Touch for Life nonprofit organization and essentially what they do is kind of similar to what we do in education is they go around to conferences and they educate. You know the people in the conference on different types of cancers, breast cancers you know we talk about in education are also disparities in healthcare and the whole idea of patient care bedside manner. How are we giving the BIPOC community access? What are these barriers to access? 36:17 And, as someone who has no background in the medical field, to come into this space and be like, it sounds like we all might be dealing with something similar. It sounds like we all need lessons in compassion and perspective taking because people are not getting life-saving treatment because the barriers of who they are and similar in education, where we talk about you know, there's not a lot of representation in gifted and talented classes or the over-representation of BIPOC students in special education. Those disparities are also happening in healthcare, so it sounds like that this is not an education conversation. I feel like this book can be on the shelves of doctors as well, and nurses, because if teaching is nothing more than a series of interactions, then I would dare to say that when I'm at the doctor's office, them practicing as a doctor with their patients is also a set of interactions. 37:23 - Jill Flanders (Guest) So this tiered system of equity supports in education could easily be a tiered system of supports in healthcare, and you know, Lindsay, over time we have really found that we get it right in early education and early childhood, but we're not really good at talking about it. We know that you have to work with the whole child. There aren't separate times that you do reading and math and all those things. They're learning everything at once, all integrated and all tied together. So, focusing on early childhood because we get it right there, hopefully we'll carry on through the rest of education and, as Arinthia said, and in other fields as well. 38:14 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Amazing. Well, thank you both for this conversation. Where can people reach out to you or connect with you if they want? And we'll, of course, link to the books as well in the show notes. 38:25 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Well, we are both. Actually we're both on all of those social media platforms. Arinthia is much better at it than I am. I take that as generational and I'm okay with it. If, if you really want good connections, probably talk to the eight-year-old that's downstairs I mean mine's. By my name, by Jill Flanders. We through, I think, through the connections through Amazon and through the Solution Tree I think our emails are there as well. 38:57 - Dr. OH (Guest) Yep, and you can follow me on all platforms, at STEM Early one word S-T-E-M-E-A-R-L-Y. Or you can find me at Avinthia Harris, on all platforms as well. I might be Dr O on TikTok. I meant to go change that. So you might have to go to TikTok and you look for Arinthea Harris. You're like I don't see her. It's Dr O, but LinkedIn, facebook, instagram, Twitter, it's all Arinthea Harris and also STEM Early. So you'll see, you'll find our content on both pages. 39:33 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Arinthea and I are both associated with the Center for Educational Improvement as well, which has its own website at edimprovementorg. 39:43 - Dr. OH (Guest) Yeah, we're everywhere you want to be. 39:46 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That's so good. All right, thank you so much, Dr Owen-Jill. It has been an absolute pleasure. 39:51 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Yay, thank you so much, lindsay. 
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In this episode, we chat with SL, an equity-centered designer and researcher from Optimistic Design. She shares her journey from the tech industry to focusing on systems and services to reshape educational systems with a focus on empowering historically underserved students.
We dive into the critical importance of co-creating educational environments that honor students' cultural and experiential knowledge, moving away from hierarchical teaching structures to foster collaboration. SL highlights the need for a healing-centered approach in education, shifting from deficit-based perspectives to recognizing students' strengths and agency. This helps transform empathy into actionable change. The Big Dream SL envisions education as a powerful tool for increasing critical consciousness among young people, enabling them to become more than consumers, but "critical designers of the futures they want to see." She dreams of an educational system that not only imparts knowledge but also equips students with the tools to understand the world and take meaningful action within it. SL believes we can empower students to co-create their educational journeys and envision a future that transcends current limitations. Mindset Shifts Required Educators are often excited about student voice, but when it comes to true co-creation with students, they may be hesitant or unsure how to get started. But to truly empower students, educators must embrace a shift from being mere authority figures to becoming co-creators of knowledge with their students. This mindset shift involves acknowledging and addressing inherent power dynamics in the classroom, moving beyond token support for student voice to genuine collaboration. Ultimately, it’s about challenging the idea that the person standing at the front of the class knows best. Instead, we all learn and grow together. Action Steps To begin co-creating with students in your classrooms, educators can follow these key steps: Step 1: Acknowledge and Map Power Dynamics Educators can begin by mapping out areas where power is traditionally held in the classroom, such as curriculum choices and disciplinary actions, and identify opportunities to share decision-making with students. This involves looking at yourself as an educator, analyzing your age, mindsets, experience, etc. to see what you bring to the classroom. It can also be a collaborative process, working with other educators to map these power dynamics out. Educators can also zoom out to bigger systems in our society—the justice system or financial system, for example—and analyze how those things feed into our educational system. SL talks about the "iceberg diagram” that helps you analyze what’s under the surface, digging down into the underlying societal structure. Step 2: Create Opportunities for Student Choice After understanding where power dynamics exist, you can continue mapping out places where power can be shared and transferred. Educators can introduce small changes by allowing students to have a say in curriculum topics and classroom discussions, promoting both peer-to-peer learning and individual work preferences. Start by asking: is there choice here? How can students inform curriculum or activities in the classroom? Small steps to share power build up to shared decision-making. Step 3: Provide Tools and Transparency Equip students with the necessary tools and knowledge to navigate educational systems, and be transparent about any constraints that limit decision-making power. One key shift is creating something visual that transforms the process from simply talking about it to making it tangible and real. Step 4: Get Continuous Feedback Educators can always look out for what’s working and what’s not working—it’s how we learn. Seek continuous feedback from students as an opportunity to grow. Asking students for feedback is a way of showing them you’re really listening. Challenges? One of the main challenges in implementing equity-centered design in education is overcoming entrenched hierarchical structures and mindsets. A lot of young people experiencing marginalization are led through the educational system from a very deficit-based lens. Instead of focusing on what’s wrong, we can shift to an asset-based perspective. Young people and students have so much to offer, and it needs to be acknowledged. This shift can be key to breaking down traditional teaching methods and embracing co-creation with students. One Step to Get Started This transition can feel really big for educators—action can seem like a huge step. But to start co-creating with students, educators only need to take small steps forward. One place to begin is by starting to map out those opportunities to share power. They can be small and seemingly-insignificant things, but they build into a bigger classroom culture of co-creation between students and educators. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on LinkedIn or on the company website, Optimistic Design. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing the Modernizing math toolkit and report with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 227 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Hi SL, Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 00:05 - SL Rao (Guest) Thank you so much for having me here. 00:07 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. Same and let's just dive right in. I'm really excited to learn more about you and invite you to just share. You know, what should the folks who are listening to the podcast or reading the blog version of the podcast kind of keep in mind as we jump into our conversation today? 00:26 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, definitely so. I want to set context that I am a equity-centered designer and researcher, currently at an organization called Optimistic Design. We are a qualitative research and product design firm. We have deep expertise in education, all the way from early learning to higher ed. At the intersection of product design. We do services and strategies as well. But that's our deep expertise because a lot of us also come from the product space. So another aspect of our work is we take a systems lens and focus on learning from and with students who have been historically underserved by the existing systems. So part of taking a systems lens is also understanding all of the other variables that impact student learning and teacher practice and those kinds of things. 01:15 And then a little bit of very quick background about you know, what brought me to Equity Center Design, research and co-creating, co-designing with students is um. 01:25 I started my work in technology, actually um, but I have navigated over to systems and services, having worked in global health, in government um, designing public policy. So I've I've kind of expanded outside of just like product to thinking about services and systems and policy and how all of these things impact our experiences within the world, our behaviors and the historical contacts that are driving some of the decisions that happen today. So that's kind of the lens that I bring. Overall, throughout my career, a major focus has been kind of working with and focusing on communities, young people, students who are not served by the larger system, really recognizing that you know, it's not to be nice, but it's really recognizing that a lot of innovation, ideas, perspectives exist that we're not harnessing, and so by really focusing on communities and people who have the least access to power, we're able to design better services and systems for everybody. So that's kind of the perspective that I come from. 02:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Oh my gosh, that's a fantastic perspective. I love all the lenses that you bring in, all of that experience that you have that's even outside of education but so clearly relevant for education, so so excited to keep going with this conversation. I think you spoke a lot to things that I imagine are part of kind of your freedom dream, if we were to go to that question, and so I just love the language that Dr Bettina Love uses where she describes them as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So I guess, with that framing, what is, you know, that big dream that you hold for education? 03:01 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, I think it's exactly that right that you hold for education. Yeah, I think it's. It's exactly that right, like education as a tool to increase critical consciousness for young people. A lot of the times, the way I was educated, I grew up in India, studying in India. I was not necessarily, I didn't necessarily see the things I was. So I have an engineering degree, for example. 03:22 So engineering, what I should have abstracted, which I had to do myself, but it wasn't necessarily something that I received as part of my education was all of the science system, classes and engineering. There wasn't a clear connection to say like here are the critical pieces or here are the mindsets that this is showing you to review and look at the world around me. So I had to do that myself. And so ways in which like education can very clearly, from the beginning, give students the tools to understand the world, take action, see their part of the system. 03:55 Because right now, the way technology is evolving, it's evolving at such a fast pace and to a level of abstraction that it's really hard to like disentangle how it actually works. And I bring up technology because we are all consumers of technology and it is continuing to revolutionize how we communicate with one another how we learn, but we don't want young people to just be consumers. We want them to be critical designers of the futures that they want to see right. So we don't want futures to just happen, and so I think education has so much to do with that and is a critical component of shifting that perspective and the mindset, and I would yeah, there's obviously already a lot of like advocacy and action and kind of demystifying happening with young people Would love that to be a critical component of our educational process and system. 04:48 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Wow, I love so much of that. And then, specifically, I just wrote down the critical designers of the futures. They want to see part, because I think that's so powerful and I think about that. It's so clear in kind of the STEM and STEAM realms. It's also clear, I think, to me when I think about being a former literacy teacher or social studies teacher. Right, we study the past to figure out what the future is going to look like and how we can co-create that. 05:12 Right, like literacy, like thinking about, like Afrofuturism and like sci-fi and fantasy and like imagining that idea of what the world could be in those spaces. Like there's so much that connects to all subject areas. This is so cool. Okay, let's keep going. I think, you know, sometimes teachers are, I think about teacher school right, the like don't smile until Christmas and like authority figure, you know ridiculousness. That is part of, like, traditional teaching methods. And I think that sometimes when we talk about student voice, teachers are like yeah, yeah, great, but then when we're like no, it's a true co-creation, there's some hesitancy and I'm just curious to know what mindset shifts that you would kind of coach people on to truly get to that place that you're describing, versus kind of the nominal like yay, student voice, but not really co-creating, co-creating. 06:01 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, that's a that's a great question. In we coach a lot of product teams, organizations around like co-design and a lot of people just want to learn the methods. They're like show me that participatory design, research method right. And so we actually step back and say like we want to understand how your organization is set up. What are the mindsets that exist within the organization? What is the culture for true co-design? 06:27 Are you actually able to shift power in ways that is meaningful and not just you know a namesake? You're just saying, yeah, you know students have power, because I've been in spaces where you know government agencies are trying to do their best. They're like we're going to bring young people in. You know the most marginalized young people experiencing housing insecurity or maybe the foster care system. We're going to bring them in to give us feedback. And when they do create that space to give that feedback, they are they're like they didn't. They didn't say the right thing, or they didn't say the thing that we wanted, right, or it's like it didn't apply to what we are doing. It's like did we spend the time educating young people? 07:05 So I think a big part for me in the mindset shift is you just mentioned is like you know, traditional teaching has a lot of like one way knowledge dumping, right, like the expert, the teacher, the, the person standing in the front. There's like a persona for that person, which is interesting even in our research, especially with younger kids, even like middle school students. When we ask about variations of like classrooms, a lot of them actually default to they want the one where the teacher knows and they tell them the thing because that's what they're used to. Right? And so really thinking about this old school belief that one person standing on the podium knows best, and a good, you know teacher has the mindset of learning together and making knowledge with students. So creating those opportunities to shift those mindsets with students, teachers and themselves, where actually knowledge making is happening together, like what are we learning? What is happening? What are we seeing? 08:02 Because students come with their own bodies of knowledge, their own cultural knowledge, and you know, we want, we want to create that space. We're doing that together. So co-creation starts there. Those like small pieces of shifting away from here's everything that we learned in history or here's everything that's happening right now. It's like the future is going to look different than the knowledge that we have. We're going to bring together and create something new that's more applicable than these, like you know, thick sets of knowledge. So, yeah, I think that would be my really big one and even for leaders, like creating that space where that's possible and I know there's a lot of other incentives that are against this where you know it's like tests and you know really thinking about these bigger incentives that de-incentivize this kind of knowledge making, but I still have hope. 08:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, such a good point about the de-incentivization of like, because stuff like this takes time, right, it takes time to like build the relationships with students and like get students to kind of come out of that space, because as a former high school teacher that tried to do that, I can tell you so many times where students was like just tell me what to do or what to do. 09:11 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, you're making too much work. 09:14 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) It's so wild and I'm like, don't you want this? And it's like, yeah, I think you probably do, and like you have just been told year after year that this is how school goes, and so it's so hard to break out of that. And so I'm really curious about the how. Like how does this work? Like, how do you share power with students in this way? How do you have, like, a steps or a framework for this? 09:38 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, I think this is, you know, it's small steps, right, like it's all the small things that we do. You know, even if we have shared lived experiences with students, you know we might have like age affinity or you know we might have like other like indicators that are like, oh, we have like similarities. So this is going to be very easy for us to shift that power. But really, I think a big part of it is really recognizing, as educators, as leaders in the education space, what our positionality is right, the way our society favors, like age, for example. So at any given point, a teacher is going to have more power in the system, just in society as a whole. So I think, you know, really thinking about stepping back and really recognizing, like, how are we showing up, what are we bringing into the space and how we teach, what mindsets we bring? Are there other mindsets that relate to student assets or student deficiencies or and these are things like we've, I think, over the last few years, a lot more conversation and discussion, willingness to talk about these things and be able to confront our own biases and, you know, our own, the preconceived notions that we're bringing in, to understand the underlying layers, in which ways in which, like our positionality, um, can cause these like power differentials, right. And then part of it is like being able to acknowledge that, you know, power in a space isn't bad. It is when it is, when we are pretending it doesn't exist, right, um. 11:19 And then the second piece is really uh, what are ways, small places where, as educators, we hold power? What are the ways? Like mapping those out within the classroom? So, is it in like being the knowledge share, setting the curriculum, disciplinary action, action, you know what are all of the ways, and I think that's part of like doing it with other educators as well, because they might bring up other perspectives. You also are the conduit to the parent, like the parents are going to, a lot of times, listen more to the educator than they will their own child, right? So there are these pieces of like. What are we saying? How are we saying that? And are we thinking in a deficit lens? Are we thinking an asset-based lens? Are we able to really, you know, think through those pieces? And then we start thinking about okay, where are the places along that continuum of like where power is held? Are there places where we can start creating space where power is shared, right, like there might be small things like and really we need to acknowledge that there's always a spectrum and we might not get to the final end of full collaborative. You know power sharing within the space, but there are steps that you can take where you're like really mapping that out and I think, as long as we're aware and we're not overselling it, it's okay. So you know you're, you're coming in and you're saying okay, is there choice? 12:46 We start with choice over what is learned, like what we can focus on. We go into like are there ways in which students can inform the curriculum? Are there ways in which students can inform how the class discussions happen? Again, like you know, there might be things within literature where it's like okay, peer-to-peer learning is great and we want to implement that. Can we give students choice over it? Because not all students are going to want that. Some students just want to work independently. 13:12 So the more spaces we create in, those are small, those feel very small, right, but they are ways in which we are sharing that power to get to a point where there is shared decision making happening. There's a lot more power. Are there ways in which then you know it escalates outside of the classroom Is there. You don't want to create a space where students have a lot more power in your classroom but they go outside and they're, you know, hitting up against like larger structures. Are there choices? A lot of times, school leadership will do like surveys or like listening sessions that I've heard of, but a lot of those are not necessarily implemented. 13:49 Again, with this perspective that, oh, students are telling us things that we don't want to work on or we can't work on. Sometimes you can't, you know you're, you have budgets and these other things, but can we be clear about those limitations so that students are smart, you know, we don't have to hide things from them and we don't have to give them free reign. When there isn't free reign, we can talk to them about what are these constraints and then give them the opportunity to design within that and create space, give them the tools. And a lot of times I think we don't empower young people with the tools we say we should. We're shifting power and we're like we shifted power, you're not doing anything with it. It's like do they have the tools, do they have the knowledge to navigate these spaces? And we as educators and, you know, adults who've been in the system where we have had like, uh, post-secondary education and master's degrees and maybe even PhDs. We just take some of these things for granted, even if we have a lot of affinity with young people is like really recognizing like we've had the opportunity to learn and grow in these ways and we need to create those spaces for young people. 14:53 And really I think for me, shifting away from just like talking about things and sitting there with other teachers and mapping things out make something visual and takes it out of just this language and makes it more clear. So it is a really great tool and it doesn't need to look pretty right Like it's just lines, dots, numbers. You might also something's what I do when I'm mapping out, and I think of this also as a version of a systems map, mapping out and saying like, okay, what are incentives potentially? Is there like a money incentive? Are there other structural policy related things that might impact this and how do we work within this? Or it gives us information about what are other pieces of knowledge that we need to share with students to help them, and we can start those at an early grade as well. 15:42 Right, like start giving choice variation and then extend that to get to a point when students are able to have a lot more free reign. Some structure is good, especially when they're younger, and giving choice within that, and we know that over time, like even with parenting, and really recognizing, like having them see their choices have a reaction, an impact, and what that feedback looks, because we also need to learn those pieces of it I think is really helpful. And then the last thing I want to say is like continuous feedback, right. I think as educators, leaders, we need to keep getting feedback on what worked and what didn't work, and we need to be open to that because we might put our heart and soul and a student might come back and be like I just wanted to go back to how it was and that's okay, right, like really understanding that there's feedback isn't bad, it's an opportunity to grow. 16:36 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Wow, you said so much. This is so cool. I love all the things. The things that are resonating with me specifically are like the Lundy Laura Lundy has this model of student voice that like connects very deeply to what you're saying. So the way that I'm sure that's probably what connected to what you, you guys, have put together. 16:51 So the idea of influence is really, I think, a big one, like the audience and influence piece where, like, yes, you have to listen, but then you have to come back and be like, okay, you gave us this feedback in the survey, right, here's why we didn't go forward with it, because we have these parameters, right, or whatever. 17:05 And like that means so much to kids because otherwise it's yeah, I wasn't really listened to, I'm not going to tell you and take the time to tell you the next time. 17:13 Right, it's such a critical step that's so frequently missed that it's like, yeah, I just. I love, also, from a systems lens, this idea of mapping with a team, because so many times we look at school schedules and we're, you know, doing the where everyone is and all that, and it's overwhelming, and so, for either simplicity or because we don't have better models, sometimes we're like, okay, well, we just don't have PLC or team time and you just have to figure it out and like, try to touch base in the hallway and it's like, no, this is so critical because it affects every moment of the day and it affects things like this like the true co-creation, like we're going to do just things so much better if you have that team time. So I love that you named that. I also, you know. Another piece I was thinking is strategic planning conversations from like a leader lens, but also I mean, I've had students do like root cause analysis for not a strategic planning conversation because they like found an issue they're interested in and wanted to make change. 18:10 But I've led some of these and they can be great and they can also just fall really flat. They can be great and they can also just fall really flat. And so I'm curious if you have either suggestions or like a particular experience that went well or didn't go well, and kind of an analysis of that, of just like, how do we do those better? How do we actually find a root cause and be able to move forward and like make authentic, co-created change, versus just like check the box, which I've seen a lot at, like the state level, for example, just being like we did it, we wrote something in the box. 18:40 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think the big thing with root cause analysis is we have to one understand the systems at play, and when we are experiencing the systems, it's really hard to see it. It's like you know your fish don't see the water. 18:55 I mean, it might not actually be true, but you know, we don't we don't, we don't see the air that we're actually going in, and so so systems can be like very specific and organized right, like like the education system. You can be like, ok, there is like the federal and you know there's like district level, state, district level. You can kind of identify, you're like, okay, this is kind of clear where the money flows, where the policies come in, and you know X, y, z, and then you can see some of the players. But it can also be kind of more complex systems that intersect, like, let's say, the, uh, the justice system or the financial system, where the financial system, yes, you can map it out from like a structural level, but there's so many influences where there's like, oh, there's the larger market, and I'm just sharing that it might not necessarily it does actually impact the education system, right Like it impacts like parent choice and interest, because they're like OK, now we want school choice for these very specific reasons, these financial incentives that then drive like variation and change and I'm talking really big systems. Right, like we want to be able to understand everything that could potentially impact this thing at a classroom level or a societal level. 20:07 Some people go, you know, go into like the seven whys process. I don't know if that's what you use. It's like, okay, this is happening, why? And then you answer you're trying to get to some of the deeper pieces, the deeper pieces in that structure, because it doesn't have necessarily like an expectation of hitting something, like you can just get to, like why? Because parents don't want to, but we don't necessarily understand, like is it the mindset, is it a financial incentive? Is it X, y, Z? The teacher doesn't want to? It's like they just don't want to. And it's like OK, we need to get to the bottom. So a couple of things. That which I think, as educators and you know, other people within the system, I feel like everyone is, uh, you know, has that you're constantly designing. 21:03 So, um, she talks about the iceberg diagram, where you're looking at what is about, like what is actually visible within the system and you might see the visible pieces might be the more obvious things. It's like you know, uh, maybe their behaviors, or they might be the more obvious things. It's like you know, maybe their behaviors or they might be like actual, something like more tangible. And then you start digging under the system and she has, like these very specific things that you get to. So you know, by the end of it you're trying to get to the underlying, like societal structure, those mindsets, so it's forcing you to go beyond the obvious. So that's one way to think about it. So then you're getting to some of those bigger pieces. The other one is what I've done is, after doing kind of a systems map, is using a fishbone diagram, which can also be difficult if you've done that, right, because but you have to find all of the right, you know limbs off of the fishbone. So it's like it for the viewers who can't see me randomly gesturing uh, or listeners, um, you know, there's the middle, which is the spine of the fish, which is you're getting to like your from your problems, your solution, and there are different kind of lines at a diagonal which look at different um pieces that can be influencing the problem. And within that piece, what I usually do is I write out all of the possible. 22:24 So if we say, let me give you an example, if we think about I'm going to go to youth homelessness, because that's kind of top of mind for me right now, so if we think about young people experiencing homelessness and we are like, ok, what is the underlying, what is what, why Right? And so there's the poverty is one. The other is could be racism, there could be lack of housing, and so you think about, like the socioeconomic, so could be lack of housing, and so you think about the socioeconomic. So there's that financial factor. Within the financial factor, you have workforce development, you have lack of I don't know federal funding or cuts to federal funding, so pushing families deeper into the poverty line. So you think of all of the factors that come from financial. So you have the entire map as a way to pull from and finalize like what, what we want to pull. 23:27 This is the other thing with the fishbone diagram, is it? It prevents us from getting stuck on like a single source for the root cause? I think really recognizing that there's probably multiple root causes right For, like for young people experiencing housing insecurity, it's a combination of like. Actually it's happening at the level of their parents too. So it's like there's a lack of opportunity, there's, you know, that causes poverty and systems involvement. 23:56 There might be other things that all intersect and just create this environment where the young person can no longer stay at home, and so we want to be able to be open to that and we won't find a single answer. It can feel overwhelming, especially, you know, for people who are not used to doing something and then feeling like, oh, we can't do anything with it, is really getting to this piece of what are the things that we want to act on within this, what are the things that we can influence? Right from our earlier question is like what can we influence and what can we take action on? What can we change? With the expectation that it could potentially cascade to some of the other pieces. 24:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Thank you for just going there, it was a deviation from from what you're talking about, but I think there's so much in here. I mean, I love the idea of the iceberg model, thinking about the societal structure or mindset underlying it. I've thought about mindsets before. I've never thought about like let's name the societal structure. That is brilliant and I think gets to kind of the root of pieces. But I even love even more just the idea that there can be multiple and that's what the fishbone like emphasizes. 24:59 I was even thinking about right like youth homelessness could be like familial, like homophobia or transphobia. It could be like homophobia or transphobia from potential employers, and then those are actually connected even though they're different systems on the fishbone. But you could like do an annotation about highlighting how actually other mindsets come up there, like there's so much that you can kind of like blend those two things. So I love that you're giving multiple models because I see such a nice synergy there and I do wonder if that's something that even students could engage with, right in that co-creation where, like you have this either lived experience or interest, or just like you want to take on this lens of either the system or like this identity or like whatever it is that like is interesting to you and then you're going to go in this way and then, like it just so clearly, would illuminate the value of having multiple people at the table to do the thing. I it's just, it's really exciting. Now I want to go do one. 26:03 - SL Rao (Guest) I want to say um, I did this work with um, with young people experiencing housing insecurity a few years ago when I was at the state. We didn't do a fishbone diagram, we just like brainstormed together and I think what was helpful for for the young people in that process is like I was also learning, we were all learning together, right, but a lot of times they were involved in systems that they didn't even realize that the system officially existed. It was a formalized system that they intersected with because our lived experiences don't necessarily show us that those pieces right. And so they realized they were intersecting with all of these systems and they also saw that there's other young people around them, either because of their friends or, you know, the friends had involvement or they had involvement. Just noticing that that they are not alone, because a lot of times we're going through this alone. So like doing this root cause with young people is like you're giving them a lens to see the larger system. But you're also a lot of times what we do is we, we do that and we leave them there, right, and that's kind of, you know, taking someone up the mountain and just being like OK, you're done, you want the closure, so you want to move it into action. 27:11 And that's a lot of times, I think, as as adults in the system, we are like OK, we saw the system, yay, but it's actually you're leaving them in a space of like trauma, of being like what do I do now? Like you're in that like fight or flight space, of like trauma, of being like what do I do now? Like you're in that like fight or flight, you want to close it out and say like okay, how are we actually moving towards action? Like what are the action steps we can actually take? Because then you're creating a space where you're closing that out. And so I know it sounds very floofy, but really just like when we think about our own like body experiences and how we want to see things closed out, and I think it's not necessarily just to like thumbs up it, but it gives people an opportunity to act or the action and those kinds of things Right. So we want to keep them in a place of like empowerment and action and not in a place of like feeling like you're stuck in headlights. 27:53 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Absolutely, and one of the things I've been playing with lately that's going to lead us into this next question I hope this transition works is action can feel really big for both teachers and students and like, okay, we got to go act. 28:05 And people have this idea, I think, in their head sometimes that action means you need to change a federal policy or you need to go amass a thousand person protest or whatever the thing is, test or you know whatever the thing is, and that thinking again about like that bodily experience and just like the idea of healing when we're all like I just think societally, politically, like there's such an intense divide that is is actively like harming kids and and right, that like we, we need to like have conversations across difference without like harming kids, or like identities right and like making sure dignity is upheld. So I'm very interested in like these kind of like micro ways of action and like just being in community and learning a new way that has, like I've just read that you have, you know, a healing orientation to your work in education and I'm curious if you could say more about that because I'd love to learn. 28:58 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, definitely. 28:59 So this is built on the work from Sean Ginwright, who talks about like, healing, centered engagement, and a lot of our work is in like how, when we it's from. A lot of it is from the perspective of research, which I think can still apply here, where a lot of research, if you read online, like, even just like looking at you know behaviors of um, young people who are experiencing marginalization. It's a lot of like people who don't have that shared lived experience going in and studying um, let's say, like indigenous students in colleges and putting a very deficit-based lens on it, right. So saying things like oh, the community is holding Indigenous students back from succeeding in college because we have such a individualistic perspective of like, if you need to succeed in college, if you need to succeed in this mainstream American culture, you have to be individualistic, kind of selfish, and you're building, you're approaching it differently and we don't really look at the assets that young people come with, which is a lot. Sometimes it can be their entire community, their culture, cultural backgrounds, their resiliency and, you know, creativity and all of those pieces, right? 30:16 So when we a lot of research focuses on like, what is wrong with you? Why are you doing this. I saw this a lot when I worked in across housing, insecurity, foster care, juvenile legal systems. You know, social workers are trained in those systems to understand, like, what happened to the young person. Young person has to repeat the same story over and over and over again. So you're always asking, like, what is wrong with you? Um, what has happened to you? And you're keeping it in that space, um, and so young people are leaving those spaces still, you know, holding their trauma, and so I think even in education we don't talk about trauma as much. I'm seeing a little bit more of that. Um, also, I think there's this piece of like, when you have only a trauma oriented focus, again you're, you're, you're like empathizing, but a lot of times the empathy is in that space of like. It makes the trauma bonding, makes us feel better, but it's not actually helping the other person move forward, right, and so we feel great about having heard the story. Oh, my gosh, this young person went through so much. This young person who's in our classroom is going through so much at this moment, um, and and we, you know, ask for information and we move forward. Um, a big part of thinking about it from a more. Healing center perspective is like shifting our research practices and methods. 31:37 So it's also shifting how we engage with young people is and and focusing, um, focusing more on you know, instead of saying what is wrong with you, is recognizing all of the assets that young people are bringing into the classroom and the school, right, um, how can we challenge ourselves about how we think about the students and the young people? We have these like social norms and expectations that we kind of push on young people. That then recreates a larger expectation of, like these deficits versus really really acknowledging the ways in which they are continuing to thrive and do all of these things despite everything that's happening. Like there's an assault on their identities, there's, you know, they're on their freedom and even like preventing them from having access to information, right, and so they are learning how to work within that system where the adults are actively suppressing their educational experience and you know, not every single adult but many adults which are which can cause a sweeping like change in their experience. So so that's kind of like a healing centered orientation and again, this piece of moving to action. We don't want to stay in this piece of like let's learn about what's, what's happening, how scared you are, how tired you are. 33:02 So we had this, um, we did this project, uh, called modernizing math, and, um, part of that work was like understanding what the future of math education can look like, and it was exactly what you mentioned earlier. We understood the history to then, uh, bring young people, caregivers and teachers together to design what the future of math can look like. But we wanted it to not be without constraints. We recognize there's a lot of changes happening in the world, like climate is changing, there's technological advances, there's political changes, economic changes. What would, what would, what are potential worlds that could exist because of these changes, right? And so we worked with another organization called Knowledge Works, who does more of like futures foresight work, and so they develop these like five different models. 33:49 We immersed young people in these like worlds and had them think about what could education and learning math look like. We did see that in the beginning, you know, there was a lot of like yeah, it's going to take our jobs, there's no point, right, like there was this just like a very dark conversation that we went into and really recognizing, yes, that that could be true, yes, and what can we do about it? Given that what would we like to see, and moving that into like action. Acknowledging and then moving into action is not in any way diminishing what people are feeling, but really recognizing like our power is in. Like what does it mean to take action in these places and have agency and control? 34:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) You're reminding me so much of early, like right after I had graduated and done my dissertation on student voice, I was doing some presentations with a person who has a trauma background in youth and our kind of thesis was that this like voice and agency were the way that you interact with trauma is like this is the pathway. So like when we can co-create, when we can imagine this future, right, like that's, that's an action step. So I just total full circle, a little bit of like that's so awesome, and I recognize we're almost at time, so maybe we'll do a quick like lightning round for a few more questions. Does that sound? Okay, awesome, all right. So one thing usually you know there's so many ideas that people get when they listen or they read over. They're like okay, I need to like narrow it down to what am I doing in the next 24 hours or something. So is there one thing from this conversation or in addition to this conversation that you would say here's a good starting point. You can do this today or the next week or so. 35:33 - SL Rao (Guest) Yeah, I think could be. What we talked about earlier is like, if you know, people are thinking about sharing power, co-creating, mapping out where opportunities, even just starting there, just seeing it, and it feels less daunting. 35:46 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love that so much. I also know everyone on this podcast. This next question is just everyone kind of identifies as a lifelong learner, so I'm just curious, either personally or professionally. 35:57 - SL Rao (Guest) What's something you've been learning about? 35:59 I also do improv, um, I'm on the ensemble ensemble of a improv group in Seattle and, um, I think one thing that comes up to me is like ways in which like movement can really help change the ways in which we think and bring out other parts of our brain and creativity, because that's why you're doing an improv right, like people a lot of times say oh, it's so hard, I would never be able to do that. 36:24 I'm like, no, you wouldn't be able to do that right. Because it is the ways in which we intellectualize, we sit, we, we close off our bodies a majority of the day, and that's how our education system is also set up ways in which we can move to help create that space to bring up creativity, use voice, use our like imaginations in different ways. We can't go from zero to 100, but we can create that pathway through our body, our voice, our memories, our imagination and start that process. So that's something that I'm always learning and I feel like there's so such a vast space for me to learn and grow, to be a better improviser. 37:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) You are such a cool person. One and two, that is such a brilliant idea, so thank you for sharing that. And finally, just where can listeners learn more about with you or connect with you? 37:11 - SL Rao (Guest) Yes, so our website, optimisticdesign, is a great place to pop in. I'm also on LinkedIn, so people are welcome to find me with my name. And, yeah, let me know how they heard about me in the notes, so I can make sure to add. 37:28 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Amazing Essel. Thank you so much for this conversation, yeah. 37:32 - SL Rao (Guest) Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me here. 
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Welcome to the premiere of season six of Time for Teachership! There are a lot of exciting things in store for the 2025-2025 school year and this season of the podcast. We are going to be adding a social studies education focus as well as talking about the “one learning model for all,” which looks at strategies for both youth and adult learners.
If you want to provide feedback or ideas on what you’d like to hear on the podcast, fill out this Google form or email me at [email protected]. What’s new for season 6? There are a few exciting areas of focus for the 2025-2026 school year:
And that’s the start… There’s so much coming! Thanks for being with me as we launch season six of the Time for Teachership podcast! I’d love your feedback, so today I’m sharing my Audience Idea Form, where you can drop your feedback and ideas on the podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Hello everyone and welcome to the season six premiere of Time for Teachership. This is episode 226. I cannot believe that we are at episode 226. Very exciting stuff in the last year. Really excited to add that social studies education focus. Excited to have so many wonderful guests on and in fact, the guests that we had who were talking about facilitation strategies and thinking about all of that kind of July leadership series we are going to have in October, kind of an episode that brings all of it together and thinks about, if you're a classroom teacher, how do you apply that in a classroom setting? So how do we do things that we've done with adults and bring that into a classroom space with? So how do we do things that we've done with adults and bring that into a classroom space with students, because often the same strategies work for both audiences. So so excited about that. Excited to continue the focus on social studies education and kind of that. One learning model for all, which is a phrase that comes from INPS or the International Network for Public Schools that I used to teach at a school that was part of. And some new exciting things as well, including an opportunity for you to share what you would like to see on the podcast or hear or engage with, rather on the podcast, and so we'll link to a very short Google form. You can also email me at hello at lindsaybethlyonscom. Feel free to share whatever comes to mind around things that would support you and your particular role. Feel free to share what your role is, because I know we have a lot of teachers, we have a lot of leaders, we have a lot of instructional coaches who listen and engage with episodes in multiple ways. So let me know again through that form or an email. 01:38 But here's my thoughts on what is coming in the future season. So we have a lot of stuff actually, through. 2025 is already mostly scheduled and slotted out. But then we have, you know, the next six months of 2026, we're off in December as per usual, for family time, for rest, for rejuvenation, and then we'll be back in January. But we want to think about a couple focus areas. So one is I really want to have more Indigenous education experts on the pod. So Indigenous authors I have several that reading their work and inviting them on the podcast although people are busy, so fingers crossed that folks can say yes but also really want to highlight and engage with and talk to and learn with the Indigenous educators, who are Indigenous Educators of the Year across the country. If anyone has recommendations also for podcast guests specifically, please let me know. Very excited to engage with that and that'll be throughout all of our topic areas. 02:35 Another lens that I'm excited to bring throughout any of those series, any of those topic areas, is the family lens. So, as a parent myself, that's very top of mind currently, but also just doing some family coaching and exploring what that looks like as coaches to be working with families who are supporting students at home as well as in school around perhaps new social studies content right, that's been a big focus for investigating history being a curriculum that I'm very familiar with and have been engaging with in the past year in Massachusetts. How do we support at home these content and pedagogical shifts in school? Right, like inquiry pedagogy. Like learning that Thanksgiving isn't maybe what we learned Thanksgiving was when we were in school. Right, there's both adaptive and technical changes, but primarily the adaptive changes for new curricula like that, learning how to do math in innovative ways and thinking there's more than one way to solve a problem. Right, like, there are things we can do at home that celebrate and foster the skills that students are going to need in classrooms. That may look differently and be experienced differently than when we were in school, and I'd love to coach families to learn how to do that, as I'm on my learning journey for learning how to parent in that way as well. 03:44 Two topics that we're excited about One is instructional coaching. A lot of instructional coaches listen, really opening up my coaching to think about. I've always worked with instructional coaches, but I want to be more intentional about supporting their needs, and so we want to have a topic where there's a month you know as our typical month long series. We want to add one in that is on instructional coaching. So, really excited about that. Also, can recommend different podcasts that already focus on that that are excellent, so I'll be learning from and with them as well, as there's a lot of teachers who are interested in the edupreneur space. 04:16 So doing either a kind of a side hustle, kind of having their own business on the side of full-time teaching or instructional coaching or principalship or whatever that is their current school-based role, excuse me or district-based role, and having something on the side, or kind of transitioning into an educational coach role where they have their own business and are departing the classroom or a school-based or district-based role, and I've kind of tried away from that because I just want to not, you know, I want to give folks what they need and I keep thinking that's not what people need. But so many people are curious about this aspect. So maybe we'll devote kind of one month you know, one of those series around entrepreneurship how to build businesses interviewing maybe entrepreneurs who have been former guests on the podcast and seeing, like, how did you do it? Maybe we'll do some behind the scenes episodes with my team, like what, who are the folks and what are the roles and what are the tasks involved in making this happen. I'm happy to answer any questions. We could do kind of an ask me anything or a Q and A episode where folks send in questions. So feel free to again use that form or send me an email with questions you have about any of these topics but entrepreneurship, for example. Questions you have about any of these topics but entrepreneurship, for example, and I can answer those as a podcast episode. So those are kind of all the thoughts around season six. 05:32 What we're hoping to have in the future are requests for responses from you. So again. Please share your ideas. We'll send that out in our monthly newsletter as well. So if you get the monthly newsletter and are subscribed to that, that should have come out yesterday to you, or maybe today, because yesterday was Labor Day, I think. If I'm thinking into the future correctly, I'm recording this at the end of July. So I think that's about right and we will catch you in the next episode. Our next episode is going to be with SL Rao Mapping Systems of Power and Co-Creating with students Super excited about that. We also have upcoming in the next few weeks. Jillian Flanders and company is on the podcast around early childhood book series. There's kind of a leadership version and a teacher version. That's gonna be really exciting. 06:16 Dr Jacoby Bell and Dr Reshma Ramkelewan were on the podcast around building an equitable classroom and that was an amazing conversation. Dr Claudine Kisar is talking about two biases. I we focused on one of the podcasts, but decision fatigue and herd mentality in her book are just real things that I experienced and I know teachers experience. We also have some other folks who have already recorded and will be on the podcast soon Dr Chad Dumas talking about leading teacher teams, which is such a unique skill set that we don't often talk about, so really excited about that we have. 06:47 Engagement is thinking with James Nottingham. I'm so excited that he was on the podcast this is great. You may know him of the Learning Pit kind of model and framework. We also have Dr Claudia Bersone-Smith and Marlene Moyer talking about students not being their behaviors, which is just a fascinating take on quote unquote classroom management or like behaviors in the classroom, and it's relational and it's rooted in honesty and self-awareness and just so good. What an important shift. It was such a good conversation. Anyways, get excited about all those, as well as many solo episodes coming up soon. |
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
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