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In this episode, Dr. Aditya Nagrath discusses the profound impact of redefining mathematics as a practical problem-solving tool rather than just a series of calculations. Drawing on his background as a scientist and researcher, he shares insights into how his platform, Elephant Learning, aims to bridge learning gaps by focusing on the foundational concepts from counting through algebra.
Dr. Nagrath also emphasizes the role of reducing math anxiety by treating mathematics as a language to empower students to engage confidently with math both inside and outside of the classroom. The Big Dream Dr. Nagrath envisions a future where mathematics is viewed not as an abstract collection of calculations to solve but as a language used to navigate the world and address real-life problems. Mindset Shifts Required Central to Dr. Nagrath’s philosophy is the need for a shift in how math is conceptualized — from a focus on rote learning and calculations to viewing it as a tool for solving real-world problems. This requires educators and families alike to stop perpetuating math anxiety by incorporating open dialogue about math challenges and demystifying concepts through everyday interactions. The emphasis should be on understanding math as a way of thinking and communicating rather than merely a subject to be feared or mastered. Action Steps To begin shifting to this new way of thinking about and teaching math, Dr. Nagrath recommends these action steps: Step 1: Begin labeling mathematical concepts encountered in daily life to make math relatable and reduce anxiety. Families can request, or educators can provide, lists of key concepts to observe in practical scenarios. Step 2: Encourage open discussions about how math is used in real-world contexts. This can involve talking through calculations and problem-solving processes out loud rather than doing them silently. Step 3: Implement platforms like Elephant Learning that are designed to reinforce foundational concepts and adapt to individual student needs, bridging gaps in understanding effectively. It helps them use math as a language and tool to solve problems. Challenges? The main challenge to implementing this new vision for teaching math is that the teacher still needs to accomplish the goals of the classroom and meet specific standards across regions. Aligning supplemental education tools with diverse classroom goals requires careful planning and adaptation. One Step to Get Started To take a step towards this innovative approach, both educators and families can create or request a simple list of mathematical concepts that relate to everyday experiences. By focusing on recognizing and naming these concepts as they arise, students can begin to see the relevance of math in their lives, reducing anxiety and increasing engagement. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on LinkedIn. Parents can check out Elephant Learning through the parent side of the website, and educators through the school side. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing a free trial of their program with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 264 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: All right. Dr. Aditya Nagrath, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Hi. Thank you for having me. Lindsay Lyons: Excited for you to be here. I'm really excited about this conversation today. I know I certainly was a person in school who did not do great in math and yet went on to do a lot of statistics in my PhD. So it's, like, really interesting, right, when we ... For me, I'm coming in with the kind of thought of, like, when we connect to things that kids care about, like, and create this culture of learning, there's learning that can happen and joy that can come out of it. And so really excited to dive in today. A- as we kind of open it up, is there anything, before we dive into my typical questions, that you want people to keep in mind throughout the episode or know going in? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, yeah. I mean, as you're talking there, um, I'm thinking about what the definition of math is. And, like, a lot of people, like, think about math as I have to execute the calculations. It's addition, it's subtraction, it's multiplication, it's division. But really, mathematics seems to be, uh, the tool we use to solve, uh, practical problems. And I think that, like, if we start to look at it that way, and as a language, right, the, the, the tools, uh, the, the language of the tools, the name, addition, subtraction, that's, that's the label of the tool which you're then going to use to solve the problem. Lindsay Lyons: I love that because that's exactly why I got excited about math, was because I wanted to learn about student voice in education, and then I was like, "Okay, well, I need some statistics to figure out how to, like, make this survey valid," right? And so that was the entry point. I love this idea of tools to solve practical problems. Okay. So taking a step of a- back, thinking about, like, kind of why you got into this, like, what your big dream is. I like to ground the episode, um, in thinking about Dr. Bettina Love talking about freedom dreaming, and she says they're dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind, like, what, what is that dream that you hold for education, for math, however you wanna interpret that? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, uh, our, our big vision, like they, they say when you take leadership courses, you need to have a BHAG, a big hairy a goal, right? And, um, and that is to change the way the world teaches mathematics. And, um, and the way that we do that is we established a mission. We're going to empower children with mathematics, and if we can empower enough children with mathematics, we're hoping that people turn and look and say, "Hey, we gotta figure out what's going on here." And so, like, uh, the whole business idea of R&D was a part of the goal. And I don't know where we are with that, honestly. Lindsay Lyons: It's fascinating to think about, like, just that transformational element of, like, we're gonna completely change how we teach math. And I imagine, I'm thinking about the families as well as the educators here who, I know a lot of educators who have kind of changed the way they teach math is different from maybe how they learned to teach math in school, and certainly from how they learned math as students, which is certainly different from families who experienced, uh, math in school and haven't been to teacher school, haven't been part of a pedagogical shift. And there's that communication at parent conference night or family night or whatever that's like, "Oh, and this is how we're approaching it now, and this is how we can coach students at home, and this is how we're gonna work together to build these skills," that is very different because families often come in with that idea that math is calculations and math is getting the number right, and, like, that is, that is all math is. So I'm curious, is there a particular, like, mindset shift or, like, some kind of aha, like, "Oh, we used to think this way, now we think this way," that you've seen educators, family members, even kids kind of go through to be able to be successful with this? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: So, like, I think what you're saying there contains maybe the heart of, uh, of the larger challenge. So, like, my understanding of it is the standards did shift with the Common Core. In order to evaluate a student's level based on the understanding of the language, and so very specifically for the teacher and parent audience, we're talking about are they using the tool to solve a problem? So, like, I see a problem in the real world, I understand that I have to multiply these two numbers together to get the solution, and that actually does, uh, provide a solution. And so that, that is different than can I execute the multiplication, first of all, but second of all, motivates the idea of I should be able to perform the calculation because I have to stop to go find the answer. You know what I mean? Like, I gotta go look it up in the dictionary. Now I know the word. You know what I mean? And so, like, uh, but contained within what you said is this idea of how do I teach it, right? Which is the same idea as how do I multiply or how do I add? And so, like, there's a separation then even there between, like, well, I have a process to do something versus I have, uh, that idea as a tool to solve an issue. And so, like, while we could change the standards, the harder thing from a leadership perspective is the application of that throughout the 15 million educators across the country. You see what I mean? And so, like, I think that, like, right now if you look at it from a, a, like, I'm gonna zoom out historical perspective, um- I- I mean, it comes down to, like, we've just made this shift a decade ago. We've been teaching math for several millennia . And so, like, this is a very small amount of time in the larger picture of things. And at the same time, i- there's a lot of confusion because of that. And so, like, now is a very particularly interesting or dangerous time as far as math is concerned because as AI is coming in, and a- as AI looks as if it's going to solve problems, um, I mean, I mean, honestly, it's not It's not actually, I mean, quote-unquote, intelligence, per se, but it is more of like a human being where we're trying to replicate the pattern, or there was a process, or... And so, like, that's good, but then it also means that the level of the human being has to get to where the standards are saying so that we can take the solution from the AI and say, "No, that's not the right solution." And I mean, it just happened to me just right over here a minute ago. Like, I had something and it was set up a certain way and I found a, a bug, and now I had to go back and I had to, like, somehow fix the data in order to fix the bug. And, you know, the, the solution that the AI suggested, it was just misguided, but at the same time, what it said to me provided an idea, was like, "Oh, you know what? Actually, we have... You're right. We have this other data here that allows us to fix this problem this other way, and now I can tell it the solution." And the part where it takes the idea and goes and implements it to code, it's pretty good at that. That's the nice thing about it. But it also ch- changes the, the field of computer science back into pure math. Lindsay Lyons: Fascinating, 'cause I'm thinking about what you're saying as what we, we hear in the humanities as well, like particularly social studies is, is I'm always thinking about, like, social studies is about thinking, and then I extend it to math. Math is about thinking. And then science, science is about thinking. And yes, there are all of these things you could do, right? You can compute things. You could, like, know about events on a timeline, sure. However, we really want to cultivate the skills of thinking and thinking critically, which is cool. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: And understanding and, and to connect it back to the statistics, like what, like what you do, right? Which statistics are we going to calculate in this particular scenario in order to get an answer to the question? Or what, like, right, I mean, typically it's a, a research study and this is the question we're posing and this, this is the data we're getting to prove that, right? And, and like, if you don't have a good understanding of that, then you choose the wrong numbers, and did you really prove anything? And Lindsay Lyons: I hope this helps, too, with educators who might be listening who are thinking- Well, I have a high school student who is struggling with, like, multiplication, and so therefore I can't teach them concepts. I mean, I would love just kind of your thinking on how you guys, I'm sure you guys address that a lot, where we have kind of a older age student who is in this higher grade level, however, has not shown proficiency in some basic numeracy or computational skills that i- is, like, inhibiting progress or, or does it inhibit progress? Can you take, you know, teach both at the same time? I don't have a intense mac- math background, so I'm curious what you think. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. So that's actually what we designed Elephant Learning to do. And what we do... A- and I mean, we, we only cover through algebra, but that's typically enough to get them to be able to con- converse with a, maybe a high school teacher or a, a, a middle school teacher. And, and the idea was, was could we just fill in the language between where the student is from a piece of, uh, from a, a, a standview, uh, a standpoint of understanding, and, um, and then fill in those gaps to where they are now with just the essential language, right? So it's not like we're teaching, here's how you add a multiple digit, uh, numbers and you're gonna carry the one. We're not doing that. We're focusing on, do you understand the idea of addition? Now, do you understand the idea of subtraction and multiplication and... Right? And so, like, and so that actually appears to be working because the, the testimonials that we get back that we're most proud of are, "My kid hates Elephant Learning." Well, I mean, w- uh, they say, "I love Elephant Learning. It's better obviously, but they love math now. And the reason why is because they go into class and they can understand the teacher, and it makes sense what they're learning about, and that, that is actually better. That's what we want. We want the outcome. And so, um, and so that's how I look at it. And, and so our system can help. Or if you're a teacher, you just have to understand, there's just not a lot of ideas between where the student is and where you are now. So while it feels like an impossible goal, also remember that this student has had that many years of experience in the world. And so it's, so it's not like they haven't encountered it. It's just a matter of we gotta label it, and we gotta get them back into the mindset of, well, let's use this as a language. Let's use this as a tool. Let's use this to solve problems. And, and we can get that student back on track Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I'm just, I'm tying this to a couple in- instructional concepts here. So one is this idea of, like, conceptual understanding, I think is huge and overlooked, 'cause we focus a lot on discrete pieces of information, like what is two times two, or i- i- you know, in other, what is the definition of this vocabulary term, right? And so this conceptual understanding is, what I'm hearing from you, really important, um, in, in math, and I would argue other topics as well. And that I love this idea of background knowledge. One of the common things teachers will say in all subject areas that I coach is, "The kids don't have the background knowledge. The kids don't have the background knowledge." But what you're saying is what I often believe, which is they, there is background knowledge. There are these mathematical interactions and experiences they've had in the world, and we just have to maybe connect them. Does that feel right? And if so, how do families maybe do that at home? Any advice for how to, like, capitalize on something that might be, like, a math conversation or could have math language applied to it? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, I mean, so, like, the first problem is, is, is understanding the level of the student. And typically, if there is a lack of understanding, there's going to be some anxiety involved, because any time I don't understand something, I start to get anxious, especially the more we talk about it. You know what I mean? And so, like, uh, the, the real challenge is, is, like, um, sometimes if you're working top-down, here's what we're talking about. Well, did you get this idea? Did you get that idea? You might get too many ideas down, and they start flipping out. You know what I mean? And so, like, um, uh, I mean, that's the first problem, right? Like, can, can we stick with it enough to get down to their level of understanding? And sometimes it takes a couple of days. But, um, once they've committed to understanding and once you've found their level, right, like, you just build them back up is, is sort of the idea. And, um, I, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question anymore is the problem. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, I think what I'm wondering is, like, how do we... We recognize their level, right? We recognize the concepts we wanna teach. We recognize that they're doing a lot of stuff that i, is math related. How do we support both, both teachers or, or I'm thinking families as well, like, how do we cultivate that outside of school? Um, I, I know that, like, programs like yours are certainly helpful. Yeah. Is there any- I'll Dr. Aditya Nagrath: add that to, to tell you that, like, what we gotta do is then just focus on when, when it comes up a- and lab- labeling the ideas, right? And so, like, the real challenge is, is that, like- We were told, "Hey, you should do the math silently." But, like, that's the math anxiety perpetuating itself, right? 'Cause if we did it out loud, no one would be scared of it. And it's like, why aren't I doing the math out loud? Like, we, so, like, um... And it, and the funny part is, like, uh, if it came to emotions, you wouldn't ever tell me, "It's too late to label shame. It's too late to label..." Like, it would never happen. But with mathematics, it's like Jedi training. He's too, he's too old, too old to begin the training, and I don't know why. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. Okay, so I, I love this idea of just you l- you label the thing, right? And then you also consider the... I, I think that's interesting, the thinking about math anxiety and all of the emotions that come w- with math, right? I, I wrote down, "Math anxiety is perpetuated by silence." That's such a fascinating idea. So are there ways that you would suggest, um, either educators or, like, what you guys do in your program l- like, kind of illuminate the, the behind-the-scenes or, like, the inner thinking so that it's not a silent activity? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah, and I mean, we're talking about the elementary concepts, so we're talking about addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, uh, fractions, decimals, and percentages. So this, these are things that human beings actually interact with on a, on a daily basis. And so, like, m- I mean, they just have to look and they'll see it. I mean, I mean, dollars and cents are decimal points. And so, like, um, uh, I think that, like, once you start looking and you start to say, "Well, wait a minute, I'm doing so much of this math," right? 'Cause, like, that's the, "When am I ever gonna use this?" Well, oh, okay, but, like, if I was doing all the math that I was encountering in a day out loud, and someone was around me, they'd be like, "Man, you're using math all the time." Lindsay Lyons: I'm almost envisioning, I, like... Families, you can request this from teachers, but teachers, maybe you can give this to families. I'm envisioning something like just taking the list you just said, right? And so, I mean, I'm su- each grade is gonna focus on different components of that. But, like, say you have a list of, you know, t- three, even, concepts. This is what we're learning for the year. You know, fractions, decimals. H- here are examples of that to look for in your daily lives at home, and to just name it as such. Like, that would be so helpful, I think, for parents who also have math anxiety and are like, "Oh, I know it's around, but I forgot what it's called," or, "I don't know..." You know? I think that would be so cool to have that communication of, like, let's just name the thing and have just a one-pager or something that they could, like, hang on the fridge. That could be so helpful to just, uh, kind of illuminate some of the math concepts, like you're saying, that are very elementary. We see them all the time. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: But maybe if our brains aren't trained to it, we w- we're not, like, labeling it out loud. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: So what Elephant Learning does is we do, we do the opposite mapping. At the level of the student, we're giving you- things and you might see outside of the system or, or activities that you could be doing outside of the system to reinforce those ideas. So they're interacting with you on those ideas, and it's at the level, right at the level of the student. So, like, you're, you're keeping pace with them. And that, I mean, accelerates it obviously, because then as you keep building up on top of it, they still have some of the former ideas coming along with them. Lindsay Lyons: Nice. I, I imagine also there's a lot of, uh, like class-wise I would always say class culture or school culture, but also just, like, I almost wanna expand it to, like, a culture of math wherever you are and whoever you're interacting with. But I'm thinking about anxiety reduction, and enough anxiety reduction or creating kind of the culture of, of using math or talking about math to reduce the anxiety as much as possible to be able to learn. Any tips or things that you've found that really help reduce that anxiety that, that teachers or families could use? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. I mean, the main, the main thing right, is understanding. If the student suddenly understands, now they don't feel the anxiety. And to be honest with you, as you're saying that, that, that thing that I said at the beginning of the show about shifting your, your thought pattern about what is math and, like, the... I mean, there's also a lot around, like, I'm answering wrong and there's, like, some wrong around that, some shame or some emotions around that. And so, like, so there, so there's that idea. But then but there's also this idea that if it's a language and I just have to, I just have to pick up a couple more words, a couple more ideas, it, it, it's not... it doesn't seem insurmountable, right? It doesn't look like there's a learning curve anymore. And that, that's really the thing, is that, like, uh, just the way we built the system almost, it's like here's an entire year for addition. It's because, okay, well, we wanna get you enough practice with it. You know what I mean? Like we wanna put it in some different contexts so you can see it, see it working out. But, like, uh, but, but it's like, what now you, you don't understand addition. You're two years behind. Right? It's, it's like this is insurmountable. But, like, if you just start to think of it as like, well, it wouldn't take me that long if I just, right, like, just focused on the ideas, then not only would the student, the teacher, everyone's anxiety starts to go away because it's like, well, I just, I just gotta get this kid a couple of ideas. Lindsay Lyons: I love that concept of just, like, less is more concept over, like, memorizing this entire table or, you know, whatever. I love that you said teacher anxiety goes down too, because that's usually what I see at, in an instructional coach role, is that the math teacher's anxiety is so high that I imagine, even not being in the classroom with them, I imagine that comes through in conversations and interactions with students. So those students, even if they weren't anxious before, n- now have all of that anxiety coming in from the teacher that, wow, they're really upset I'm so far behind, so I must really, really be behind. And now I'm even more stressed. Fascinating. Wow. Okay, that was a good, that was a good learning for me. And so I think w- this is such a good... I mean, it's such a good goal to have, that we just completely transform our thinking about how we teach math. And I am curious if there's anything we haven't covered that's been, like, a challenge you've seen either students, families, or educators experience in making that shift. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Well, I mean, the, the challenge is, is they have to also, uh, accomplish the goals of the classroom. I mean, they're... The teacher's in a job. I mean, the parent maybe, maybe, i- is, is, is involved, maybe is less involved. You know what I mean? So it's really hard from the parent's side. Typically, if they're coming to us and they're giving us dollars, they're involved, uh, to some degree, right? Like, may- at least they gave them the application. You see what I mean? And so, like, um, I think that, like, it... I, I mean, it's, it's a very challenging problem, the one you just posed to me because, because the standards are different in every state, because, uh, the testing is different in every school, because... You know what I mean? So, like, uh, I don't know immediately, right? Like, and then I, I was talking to a teacher and they say, "Well, each student in, in IEP has very specific goals, and I'm not supposed to grade two other goals," which, I mean, that doesn't even make sense, 'cause it's like the ball has to go in the hoop. It has to look like it went in the hoop. Lindsay Lyons: Y- yeah, there are so, there are certainly so many, I'm sure from your, you know, perspective of creating, uh, the app and, and all of the, you know, lessons and all the things, it must be challenging to, to fit that into all of the various things that teachers, and across states in the nation, have to, to, uh, factor into assessment and teaching and everything. Well, Dr. Aditya Nagrath: so we focus on the essential topics, and that's the, the difference. So for a teacher, we're supplemental, which means we're not covering every single standard, um, at least in Elephant Learning, right? And so, um, that... Z- so that's where things get a little bit more confusing, because, like, you could have this goal, you could have this mindset that I'm teaching- the language, but at the same time, it, it doesn't help me achieve this sub-goal of they have to pass this particular exam. And that's why it's like, yeah, I, I don't I don't know how to advise on this because there is no single answer anymore after that. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. I will say what's heartening is that all the research on, like, project-based learning or, like, applying concepts to solve problems does show that, like, the test results end up being better if they learn that way than if we're teaching to the test anyways. Yeah. So I think that's a good step and push to do that. The project stuff Dr. Aditya Nagrath: is always very good, because instead of teaching the mathematics in abstract, you're giving them, like, some sort of concrete goal where the mathematics, uh, is relevant in order to achieve that goal. So that, I mean, that al- al- almost always works, I think, is, is what they find out. Lindsay Lyons: I, I usually at this point in the episode say, you know, what, what would you encourage the audience to do when they end the episode, like one quick thing. I have in my mind something that I am thinking about in this conversation, but I wanna see if what you, what you think it would be. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: I'm blanking. Now that you said the question. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, can I say mine then? And we'll see if you agree. Okay. I was thinking what I might do if I listen to this was actually just make a list of those terms or concepts that I teach if I'm a teacher. And if I'm the family member, I might ask for that list. Does that feel right? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. Why not? Lindsay Lyons: Nice. All right. I'm excited. Wanna go teach math now. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Yeah. H- that works. Why not? Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Um, and then as in closing, kind of, I ask two, two final questions. And I wanna give you space to talk about Elephant Learning 'cause I think it's such a fantastic idea for, for students to, to, um, particularly older students, my background is in high school teaching, to, like, help high schoolers particularly, but, but of all ages, of course. Um, the first question though is just for fun. What is something that you have been learning about lately? And it could relate to this conversation or be totally different. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Hmm. What have I been learning about lately? I've been telling this AI to do a lot of things, I'll be honest. I Lindsay Lyons: think a lot of us are learning about AI. That is fair. Um, and then finally, like, can you tell us a bit about Elephant Learning, like how it works, where people can learn more about it or get in touch with you? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Sure. So Elephant Learning is, uh, i- is an online platform for learning mathematics. Uh, on average, children in our system learn about a year and a half of math over the course of 10 weeks. They use it just 30 minutes per week. We cover from counting through algebra, which, um, i- is roughly K through eight, but pre-K through eight. And, um, and, like, for if you're a high school student and you're struggling with mathematics, typically that's because you, you ... there was a misunderstanding that occurred in algebra or earlier. And so our system- Finds that gap or mediates that gap. It does it fairly quickly. Uh, the older you are, like the longer you could use it at a time because, like, we've seen older kids use it, like, 30, 45 minutes in a session, which is like an entire week for a five-year-old. And, um, and so, like, uh, basically it, it's gonna help you catch up to understand the teacher, uh, hopefully right there in the classroom, but at least at a level where if you're missing one or two ideas, the teacher doesn't feel like, um, they have to go back five years to help catch you up. So they're not gonna, they're not gonna freak out. And so that's, that's very helpful for most students. Lindsay Lyons: And I've seen videos where people are using iPads. Is this a app specifically for iPad, for, or, or tablet, or is it like a computer thing as well? I'm thinking about teachers who may or may not have certain devices. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: That makes perfect sense. We designed it to work just about everywhere. It runs in your browser. iPad app opens up the browser and is... We make it native because there's some hooks. But, um, yeah, I mean, uh, like, uh, Chrome, Safari, uh, iOS, Android, Kindle Fire. And, uh, I mean, for the f- most part it feels like a game. When you get to algebra, we shift the game a little bit and now it's a game of identifying what's true or what's false. And, um, and w- and what it really is is the activities that the researchers already found most effective at teaching math as a math conceptually or as a language. And so, like, what we did was we combined that with advanced algorithms that, uh, are, are able to quickly adapt to the student. So it's an adaptive supplemental tier one, two, three system. Lindsay Lyons: That is super cool. Okay. Thank you for explaining that. I understand it better now already. And then finally, where can people connect with you? Do you have, like, a website people should go to or platforms or anything? Dr. Aditya Nagrath: The best way to get ahold of us is if you're a parent, go to elephantlearning.com. And if you're a teacher, go to schools.elephantlearning.com. And if you end up at elephantlearning.com, there's this classrooms or schools on the top, so you just click that and it'll take you over there. But, um, yeah, there's a different, dif- two different initiatives, talking to parents and talking to schools. Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Nugent, thank you so, so much for being on the show today. Dr. Aditya Nagrath: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. Thank you.
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This episode features Dr. Darla Bishop, who joins our conversation to discuss the importance of family-school partnerships and financial literacy for children.
With a background in education and public health, Dr. Bishop is passionate about helping people build healthier relationships with money. She believes in the importance of teaching financial literacy from a young age and partnering with parents and educators to do so. Dr. Bishop discusses the mindset changes necessary and provides many practical tips and strategies in this episode to talk to children of all ages about money. The Big Dream Dr. Bishop dreams of an educational system where schools are seen as safe havens and key learning environments. Even more than that, she envisions a world where children are taught about money in developmentally appropriate ways, which empowers them to break generational cycles of financial mismanagement and become financially literate individuals. Mindset Shifts Required Parents and educators are encouraged to move away from seeing money as a taboo topic. Instead, they should consider the lifelong impact of teaching financial literacy, and that kids can be the carriers of social change and make lasting impacts in their lives and the lives of those around them. Action Steps The reality is that we’re already teaching our kids about money, whether explicit or not. Kids are picking up money lessons. So what does it look like to be more intentional with what we’re teaching them? Here are some key action steps Dr. Bishop recommends: Step 1: Pay attention to what money messages you’re giving your children. Does it sound like, “We don’t have money for that,” or “We can’t afford that”? Or, what are the conversations you have at the store? That helps you know what kind of messages you’re sending your children and focus on what you might want to change. Step 2: Begin having open discussions about money with children, even when they’re young. It can start by reading the prices at the store or identifying the coins and understanding their use in everyday transactions. You can also encourage kids to take part in small financial decisions, like handling money during grocery trips, to illustrate financial concepts in real life. Step 3: Set targets for children not just to spend but to save and donate money, thus nurturing a balanced financial mindset. Step 4: Form partnerships between schools and families to educate children on money. Dr. Bishop’s curriculum outlines tasks for teachers, students, and parents so each person is involved in building financial literacy. For example, if students are learning about counting multiples in math class, the teacher can ask a parent to help at home by pulling out specific coins and teaching the children to use them in real life. This reinforces what they learn in school and gives real-world money applications. Challenges? One of the significant challenges highlighted by Dr. Bishop is adults' varying relationships with money, which can often impact teaching it. Families may hold onto outdated financial beliefs, and teachers may feel unprepared to venture into financial education due to their complex financial relationships. One Step to Get Started Because one of the key challenges is our own varying relationships to money, Dr. Bishop recommends adults take stock of their own financial beliefs. Ask yourself: “What are the rules I have about money?” Write them down and then ask if they make sense for you today. You may find that they’re based on outdated ideas or other people’s ideas and values. This self-reflection aids in creating a healthier narrative around money that can be passed on to the next generation. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on her personal website, the Piggy Bank Pathways website and Instagram. You can also check out her book for children, Madeline’s Money Adventure, or older teens, How to Afford Everything. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing Piggy Bank Pathways Activity Hub with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 263 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Darla Bishop, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Dr. Darla Bishop: Thank you so much for having me. Lindsay Lyons: I am really excited to dive in. So I have a few things on my mind since I've, like, learned about all of your stuff and, and you've sent me materials and everything. That's so exciting. Um, I also imagine you have things that you want listeners to know or keep in mind as we kind of go through, uh, the general questions. But things on my mind, and I'm gonna throw it to you, and let, let us know what's on your mind. Family school partnerships, like how schools and families can work together to help kids. Huge. I think I'm really excited to know your ideas there. Um, also just healthy ways to talk about money with kids as well as, like, what exactly do we talk about with the kiddos? I'm so excited we got a guest. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, and so what's so awesome about schools and parents is they already work together already, right? And the idea that I approach this as a parent who's also been a teacher, um, for little kids and grown-ups, is if we put a bit of attention behind it, a bit of intention about how we see our role, how we see the other side's role, and whether or not those things match, and we're to make sure we're kind of talking in the same way so that it's easier for us to meet in that middle, where we're all concerned about the same thing anyway, right? We care about raising and having great citizens, and them displaying those behaviors now while they're in the school environment, while they're home with their siblings and family, while they're in the community doing, you know, their sports or just out and about living normal life, right? And so since we all have that same goal, that if we just put a bit of intention from all sides, that it will all go smoother and the kids will benefit even more. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I think, I mean, part of what you're saying actually leads into my next question, so I'm just gonna ask it. Um, but Dr. Bettina Love talks about the idea of freedom dreaming with a quote that I admire. She says, "They're dreams grounded in the critique of injustice." And so with that in mind, like, what is that dream that you hold for education broadly or, or, you know, um, y- youth and, and finances and financial literacy? Like, however you wanna interpret that. Dr. Darla Bishop: Well, there's a couple pieces of that, right? Like, part of it is in the school environment, right? Like, how do we help kids from all types of situations feel that school is their safe place, and that they love it, and that the adults there are there to love them in whatever way that feels right and appropriate, and teach them and guide them and support them? Because not everybody has a great home, and so maybe that they're getting some of that from school, which I know is heavy for teachers, but like, hey, it, it is what it is because that's how we've built our society, right? For better or worse. The other part on the money side is the reason I'm so passionate about helping kids learn about money is layered. One, my background in education and public health, we know that whenever we need to change something in the public's health large scale, writ large, that when we teach kids the behaviors that we want to see in society, they go enforce it with their grownups. Perfect example, seat belts, right? When seat belt law started to change, state police and other safety organizations went into schools, did safety presentations. Fire safety went into schools, did safety presentations, taught the kids, "Here's how... Here, here's what you need to do every time you get into the car. If someone in the car isn't using their seat belt, remind them, because maybe they don't know." And so that means that the children end up being the carrier of this social change. And so when we teach the babies about money in very simple age and developmentally appropriate ways, a few things happen. One, in case their parents never got these lessons, we're starting at the ground, and so it's okay because now the parent learns the lesson too, right? The other thing that happens is when the child notices how the grownups and/or older kids in their life are using money, they start asking questions based on what they learned in the school environment The next thing that happens is just in case there are forces that don't allow the parent, the grown-ups, to get it together, right? They can't ever figure out how to save. They can't ever figure out to, to work consistently. They can't ever figure out how to just move out of whatever space they're in. Those lessons that those kids get in the classroom end up being protective. Because once that child grows into a young adult who's then working and earning a little bit of money, even if the parent or the grown-up has said, "Well, now you're working, you need to contribute to the house," they might say, "Mm, but I remember I'm supposed to save $5," even if it's just $5 from my check for some reason. And then all of a sudden we have a 16, 17 or 18-year-old who maybe has been working an after-school job, a weekend job, and they've got a few hundred or even a few thousand, um, dollars saved up because they remember this lesson from when they were a kid, even if the grown-ups in their life were unable to take the action, they were. So then they're starting off their life as an adult, perhaps independent, perhaps not, but with these behaviors that they learned as a kid. And so they can be the grown-up who teaches the next generation or the one above them. When I learned about money, when I taught everybody in my life about money, it changed three generations of my family. My s- me and my siblings, because I, of course, put them on a budget as soon as I could. And then the grown-ups because they say, "Hey, we notice you're doing okay. Well, how do you do this?" And they kind of ask in their own way for how they could do things differently in a way that still worked for them. And then my kids are super money smart, just because they swim in this water where we're talking about money all the time. And so that, that's where it comes from. And I know that was a long answer, so I'll be quiet because let's talk. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. My brain is exploding right now. I'm taking furious notes. Um, wow, where to even go next? I mean, so I just wanna kind of like echo back some of the things that are really resonating with me. So this idea of kids being the carriers of social change, like, mm, I just want people to sit with that. That's really good. I also am really excited about the idea of asking questions. Like inquiry pedagogy from the teacher lens, also the family lens, like how do we continue conversations over time? I love that you're-- It's making me think of your curriculum, you know, K-5 being like, okay, and we grow this over time. We don't start in pre-K with like, here's how to budget for this, like, thing that you, you want necessarily, but we're doing like a foundational piece to eventually do that. Um, I just, I think there's, wow, so much that you just said that's literally blowing my mind. Um, but also I, I'm curious to know, like- I have heard so many families who are families of preschoolers, families of, uh, maybe elementary kids particularly say, I literally have a family say to u- say to us, um, we were doing, uh, how to talk to kids about social issues. It was h- how do I, do I literally say the word money? Like, they were like, "I have grown up never having been told to talk about money." That was, like, a taboo subject. Um, I also have, have been thinking about, um, folks that I know that are, like, very stressed when it comes to money because families have shared the dynamics of money, but not necessarily in a healthy way. And so I'm curious, I think there's some probably shifting or, like, a, a term I often hear is, like, the re-parenting, right? Like, you're, like, re-parenting yourself. You're shifting how you grew up thinking about money and now we gotta do it different. Like, for the family members listening to this or engaging with this episode, like, w- what has to happen for that shift or what's, like, a mindset that you can help coach us through that needs Dr. Darla Bishop: to happen? Yeah. Uh, and I'm s- thank you so much for hitting on that. I think part of it is we don't always realize as parents that our voice ends up being that inner monologue for a long time, right? Especially if you're in the stage where you have some older kids, like they're 12 and up, and so they're not listening to you. They're listening to their, their friends and their, their peers. But really, your voice ends up be that, is that, um, inner monologue really probably until early to mid-20s. And so what you say and what you do matters, not to put pressure, but it matters more than you're probably giving yourself credit for. And so one of the things I often th- say is, like, if you're wondering how you're already teaching your kids money lessons, because you are. We're constantly teaching our kids lessons about relationships, about money, about values, about how we treat one another, right? Whether we are explicitly doing it or just living our lives, 'cause they are watching, right? That if you are wondering how you t- how your kids are picking up the money lessons is for 30 days, s- start at, say, like, and put it in your calendar even. Just make a note in your phone or if you're a journaling or diary type person, every time you hear your kid say something about money, ask for something that has a cost, a, a financial cost, or react, just so that you can kind of create a list of the things that you hear your kids say, or even better, that you say to the family, right? And then after a couple weeks, three or four Look at your list, and we are not looking at this with any judgment of ourselves, of anything. We're just simply-- This is we're, we're being anthropologists. We are being NCIS. We are being curious. We are investigating, not making any judgments yet about, hmm, so what are the things that we've said out loud to one another about money? And if you look at that list and you're like, "Cool, that's what I want their inner voice to say," stay exactly there. Keep using those messages. But if you see the list and you're seeing things like, "We ain't got money for that. Stop asking for stuff. We can't afford it," and if you don't want those to be the main messages rolling around in your child's head, then you gotta figure out what to say differently. And I'd like to give this example of being in the store with my child, right? Like every once in a while we've gotta go to a big box store because we need trash bags and light bulbs. So the way that I set us up for success is I specifically say, "This is the purpose for this trip. We are going to this store because we need trash bags and light bulbs." And I recruit the kid to help me remember, quote-unquote, that we're here for trash bags and light bulbs. "Oh my gosh, what are we here for again? Oh, trash bags and light bulbs. Okay." 'Cause they're helping me stay on track, and which is great. You give a kid a job, and they're gonna do that job most of the time, right? The second thing I do is when they notice something that catches their attention, a toy, a dress, a candy, something colorful, I don't, if, especially if we're not in a hurry, we don't have somewhere to go, I don't rush them past it. I say, "Oh, well, let's stop and look at it. Well, what do you like about this dress? Oh, you like the color. Oh, okay." Okay, so I g- engage them in a thirty-second conversation, a one-minute conversation, and then usually that actually satisfies it because I didn't rush them past the thing, and they got to tell me why they liked it, and we got to spend a little time with the thing, or they got to pick it up, or they got to touch it. That's like eighty percent of the time enough, and we can move on. Now, for that other twenty percent of the time where they actually make the ask, "Mom, can I have?" I say, "Hmm, well, do you remember what we came to the store for?" And they say, "Trash bags and light bulbs." Perfect. "Did we get our trash bags and light bulbs?" "No, not yet." Okay. Well, let's get that first. So I can either move them to the main purpose we came to the store, or I can say, "Well, because we didn't come for the dress or the toy or the candy today, we're not gonna get it today. But can you look, tell me what numbers it says on the price tag?" And then it makes them look so that they can recognize prices, because that's an important life skill. That's an important skill to have when you send them to the store to pick something up when they're old enough to do that on their own, right? They need to be able to look and identify prices and compare, "Well, this one costs $2 and this one costs $2, but this one's bigger, so maybe that's the one I want," right? And so, "Oh, what's that price?" "Okay, it's $7." "Do you think you have $7 in your piggy bank?" "I don't know." "Okay. Well, we know that you like it. We know that it costs $7. Now that we have our trash bags and light bulbs, we're gonna leave the store. But as soon as we get home, let's check your piggy bank, and if you have the $7, well, the next time I come to this store, or I might even make a special trip, and I'll come get that thing for you." Right? And then if they don't have the $7, "Well, darn, you, you only got $5. Well, what could we do to help earn the extra two that you need? Is there some special jobs you could do around the house? Do our neighbors need anything? Do you have any birthdays or special occasions coming up where Granny or this other person in our life usually gives you a small gift?" My son, when he goes to the barber shop, the barber is so nice and usually will tell him, "If you sweep the floor, you can have $2." So my son will say, "Can we go to the barber shop?" Because he knows he can, he can get the $2 he needs there, right? And I know I explained this in a long way, but that little interaction of, "Well, how much does it cost? Okay, let's check your piggy bank," only took a little bit longer than, "No. Put it back. Stop asking for stuff," and develops a much richer, friendlier in, in relationship with money. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. That was... I'm, like, taking notes 'cause I'm like, "I'm gonna do that thing next," 'cause I've totally found myself being like, "No. We can't. We're not doing that. Stop asking." So this is so good. Oh, wow. And I also just love how much, like, there is so much you're teaching in that conversation. I mean, I imagine, I'm already thinking, like, two conversations ahead too to, like, okay, maybe we buy the thing for $7, and then the next time we're at the store and we identify this other thing, and now we don't have any money in the piggy bank, right? Like, what a wonderful opportunity to now engage, like, well, because you made a choice, right? Like, and we... Oh my gosh, there's so much potential, and for a continuing conversation about- Dr. Darla Bishop: For a continuing conversation, right? Because we're teaching our kids about money every single day. Every single day. And so if we can put a bit of intention about it, then it just l- opens up a world of possibilities for the kids. And when you don't, and I'm not telling anyone, parents or teachers, that you have to have the answers, but have a few questions ready. Because when you have questions ready, the kid will carry the conversation. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely Absolutely. A- and, and what I love, thank you for sending, uh, me a little glimpse of, like, what the, your curriculum looks like. It's beautiful, and what I really wanted to just say I love is in each lesson you have, like, here's what the task is for the teacher, here's what the task is for the student, here's what the task is for the family member. And I, I just love that those three, wi- within the lesson it is assumed and encouraged and invited that everyone is an equal participant in this. So you have student agency, you have that home family connection or home-school connection immediately, and I think, I, I, I just love, one, that as a mindset of just when we're doing this, here's a prompt I'm gonna send home for families, or here's a prompt I might tell families ahead of time. Um, I- do you mind sharing some of the ways that might come up in the curriculum or that you've seen be successful with, like, I'm doing something as the teacher at school, here's, like, a move a teacher can make or an ask a teacher can make of the family to, to bridge that partnership or to form that? Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the things that I've heard from, like, my credit union and banking partners is they're realizing that kids are not spending much time handling real money. And so when they're doing the math lesson, you know, if you've been a elementary school teacher, you have the math book and it's pictures of the coins. The kids are having a much harder time getting that concept of which coin is which value because they literally haven't handled them, right? And so one of the things I might do, whether I'm the math teacher, the social studies teacher, or the teacher who's been tasked with doing this money workshop, is I'm going to ask the parents, "Hey, can you specifically find some coins and talk with your child about counting the coins, sorting the coins, identifying the coins, and telling you how much the coins make?" Because this is something we're doing in math to teach them multiples, and if you do it in real life where they get to touch it and smell it, 'cause pennies smell funny, and see which is bigger and which is smaller and which are the same color and which is a different color, then it'll make my work in this math lesson where we're teaching multiples way easier. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I mean, even just there was an article I was reading the other day, and I said something to my three-year-old and I was like, "Oh my gosh, they're not gonna make pennies anymore." And he's like, "What does that even... Like, what does, how is that even a thing?" I was like, "Oh, right, 'cause you don't handle pennies. Like, you don't handle coins 'cause everything is on our credit card." So that is so good 'cause I, I feel like there's so many other things, like current event articles like that, that could now make meaning because you have handled the physical thing. Dr. Darla Bishop: Right Lindsay Lyons: Go ahead. Um, I am curious about, also I'm sure, uh, like, the audience is, is curious about, like, what is a potential trajectory from, like, a pre-K conversation to, like, a fifth grade conversation about money? Like, can you give us a couple examples of, like, what does it look like in fifth grade, and then what does it look like m- several years later to kind of like illustrate how we build over time, whether I'm a teacher or honestly a family member as well? Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah. So let's stick with the physical money conversation, right? So in the lower elementary, we're gonna be actually handling physical money and showing that the numbers on the paper, the symbols on the coins matter, and that's how you can tell what the value is. And that we use these things, this paper and these coins, to trade them for other things we need or want. So it's really basic, right? And then we also talk about all the different ways we can use these papers and co- pieces of metal. We can use them to save, s- because we know we want something and we need to take little bits of money over time. We can use it to spend because we are ready to now trade it for something we need or want. We can use it to share or give to others because that's one of the thing that's really important to do, is when you have, is to make a plan to share. And it might be that you share the money or it might be that you share the toy or the food that you bought with the money. But we're also getting in that sharing is caring language, right? Now, the fifth grader, we're gonna talk about, okay, so you know that all the grown-ups either tap their phone or use this plastic card to use money. So how do you know how much it's used when it's not the physical paper? So we're gonna be really trying to get them to think about how to keep track when it's not the physical thing that if they had a stack of dollars, they could see it get smaller, but instead they're just tapping or swiping. So what are all the different ways they're gonna know how much is in the bank, right? So that they can think about what their limit is, what they can spend, what they can't spend, how to get more, what happens when it's too low, right? So we're gonna have them problem solve so that they have that reminder from when they were little that there is a physical thing behind the plastic card or the tap. Now, when they are teenagers, and maybe they are more- Um, they are more consistently doing things to trade their time or skills for money, like babysitting or mowing lawns or, you know, working at the ice cream shop or the car wash, right? So, like, having them think about, okay, so you know that every time you spend an hour of your life at the car wash, you- you're getting $10. And if you want to go buy those shoes, it's gonna cost you $100. So that means you had to trade 10 hours or a full day plus some extra hours working in order to buy those shoes. Is that still worth it? How long will the shoes last? How are you going to use the shoes? How are you going to take care of them? Because if something breaks, if they, if they get damaged, that means when you go to replace them, because it's really hard to get shoes fixed, at least that kind of shoe, when you go to replace them, you gotta do that whole thing all over again, and it might be $110 now instead because they don't have that one. They have a- the newer model, and it just cost a little bit more, right? So then we're still connecting that physical paper and coin from when we caught them in first grade to now trading their time for money and what that really looks like, because it's, they had to put their effort or their work or their sweat in order to get the money, in order to trade it for the thing. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. Okay, two things I'm absolutely loving. One, this idea of, like, is it worth it. Th- that to me is, is, coming back to that initial example in the grocery store, right? Like, is it worth it? Yeah, we do have $7 at home in your piggy bank. You've saved for a whole year. You've got it. Is it worth it to, to give all that there? Or do you want that thing for $10 that you've been talking about for the last year and you wanna, like, save up for that, right? Like, I love that framing to just as a parent have in the back of my head to be like, "Oh, right." Maybe it's not the literal question I ask my three-year-old, but, like, it's, it's, it's there in my mind to guide our conversation. But I also just really wanna name that sharing piece. That is so good. I constantly, like, try to, to think about how to par- parent well in all the dimensions, and I keep them separate sometimes. I'm like, "Oh, it's a money conversation. Oh, this is a, a community conversation, how to be a good community member." But actually, they can totally be the same conversation, and I just love that you named that, so thank you. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, no, for sure. And part of it too is one of the things that I've recently realized as a parent is I was doing the business of our lives without my kids, because it's just faster, right? It's faster to go to the grocery store without the kids. It's faster to run this errand without putting everybody's shoes and socks on. It's like, okay, hey, the other parent's here. You're good. Okay, I'm gonna run to the store. I'll be back in 25 minutes. You need anything, right? But then I was like, wait, but that's how I learned how to do this stuff with my own parents, by being drug around to the post office, and the, the clerk where we had to drop things off, or to the grocery store, right? Like, and so if I, for my own convenience, leave the kids out, how will they learn how to do these things in real life? And so I'm gonna have to just leave more time to go grocery shopping so they can come along. I'm gonna have to leave more time or pick which day we're gonna go to the hardware store so they know how to say, "Excuse me," and, "How can I find this?" Or, "This is what I'm looking for." Because those are all interactions we need to know how to do, and if I don't model it for them, if I don't give them a chance to practice this while I'm here to guide the interaction, then how will they know what to do when they are on their own? How will they know what to do when I'm ready to send them to the store instead of me going? Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. I'm already trying to scaffold toward independence for little things. Like, that's a huge one, right? You go, get those groceries. I can remember doing that as a kid, we just, I had to go a million times with my dad first. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yep, exactly. Lindsay Lyons: I am curious. I, I named a few challenges that were in my brain that I had heard people share. Um, is there any challenge that you've noticed with families or teachers talking about money that they've kind of come up against? Um, whether it's, like, resistance to talking about it at all, or, like, you know, I talk about it in this way, but, like, really I should, like, talk about it in this healthier way, or yeah, I'm curious to know what your, like, big ahas are for us so we don't have to, like, muddle through that ourselves. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, I mean, it's because we all, each of us has our own relationship with money. Each of us. And even in a married couple, because we came into that marriage with all types of experiences before we became a married couple, that each individual's relationship with money Could be totally different than what that couple as a unit's relationship will be with money. And that's why, not to bring everybody down, you know, 40% of marriages that end often say it was because of, of financial disagreements, right? And so in the school-family-child dynamic, the thing that comes up is that we often, often, I don't wanna say all, but we often have not fully examined our relationship with money. So here I am trying to teach it, but I don't even know how I feel about these things. Um, and the other piece too is teachers, you know, while in our society we say teachers, you know, are underpaid and underfunded and have to do so much work. I don't know if you know that statistically speaking, a teacher has a much better chance at retiring as a millionaire than a physician, right? Yeah, statistically speaking, you have much better odds to retire as a millionaire as a teacher than you do as a physician. And think about it, right? Because if you're a teacher, you probably started your career, unless you had to take a different path, m- r-right out of college at 22. You only, if you had loans at all, you only had the loans from that four-year degree, because if you go for more schooling, you usually do that while you're already teaching, and the district will help to subsidize that expense, um, so that you can continue to, you know, develop as an educator. Um, and then depending on when you became a teacher, you might have access to a retirement plan where the school district is putting a portion or a percentage of your salary in, again, right at age 22. Um, or you might even still have a pension. There are a few school districts that still offer pensions, and so you're starting your retirement, um, financial situation right at 22. That's great. That's great. And then because you went to a teaching university or, and only spent four years in school, your loan balance is probably much lower than someone who went to medical school. 'Cause if you go to medical school, that means you're probably not actually working and earning a big, a big salary, yes, but you're not earning that salary until 28 at the earliest, 32 if you did something special. And so that's a full 10 years that person has not been participating in retirement savings. So you've got that time power of money on your side. And as a teacher, no one expects you to drive a luxury car. No one expects you to have a huge house. No one expects you to have three kids in private school. In fact, if you do, they'd be like, "Wait Why do you drive a fancy car, have a big house, and have three kids in private school, right? But if you are a physician, those lifestyle expectations are there, so you start it with a lot more debt. You have to have ... You have high expenses because you have to pay your liability insurance, your, um, malpractice insurance, and then there's all those lifestyle pressures. And as a teacher, if you go thrift shopping every weekend, no one bats an eye. If you drive a used car for 20 years, no one bats an eye. So it is statistically speaking way easier to be a millionaire as a teacher than it is as a physician in this country. And so what if we leaned into that? That hey, I c- I'm, I'm potentially a million dollar teacher just because I've been putting in retirement since I was 22. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I've never heard that statistic or thought about that. That is brilliant. I also just love the, like your encouragement for introspection around like the how do we, how have we come to money in a partnership, and like, and now I'm teaching about it. Like, there are so many things that we hold onto that like, you know, not everybody's excavating in therapy or something, you know. Like we have to actually- Right ... dig in and like think about it. Oh my gosh. Wow, you have given me so much to think about. I'm realizing we are almost out of time, so I'll move- Dr. Darla Bishop: Oh my gosh ... Lindsay Lyons: last few questions. But I- I'm curious, what is like one thing that an audience member can do when they end the episode, and it's like I wanna just put some little nugget of this conversation into practice today or tomorrow? Dr. Darla Bishop: The very first thing I would suggest is get a piece of paper, and I love blank pieces of paper for this. Colorful if you have it. So if you're a teacher listening, go grab a yellow or a bright orange from the copy room. I won't tell on you. Because th- that something about the bright color actually sparks some creativity. And I want you to write one question: What are the rules I have about money? And then write down all the rules you have about money. I cannot spend this. I'm supposed to save this. And rules can be good, bad, or neutral. J- but just write down all the rules that you have in your brain about money, whether you follow them or not. We're just writing all the rules that someone has ever told you about money. And then I want you to go through and ask, "Does this rule make sense for my life today?" Because one of the things that happens with how we learn about money is we learn from the grown-ups around us when we're growing up or coming of age, right? And their context may have been completely different, so the rules they gave us made total sense for their life, for their situation, for their generation, for their income, for their whatever, right? But might not make sense for us in our life right now. And so- Just see if there is a rule that you've been carrying around, and maybe even feeling bad that you haven't been able to follow, but doesn't make any sense for you. Like, if my rent is $1,500 a month, and if I wanted to go live the American dream and buy a house, but my mortgage would be $2,200 a month, then it actually does not make sense for me to be a homeowner. And so every time my parents ask me why I haven't bought a house yet, I should tell them, "Well, Mom, Dad, it's because my rent is 1,500 and my mortgage would be 2,200. It doesn't make math sense, and I can do math." And that'll shut down the conversation, at least that time. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's really good. Okay, thank you for that. Next question: What have you been learning about lately? It could relate to our conversation or it could be totally not related. Dr. Darla Bishop: So I've been learning about how to be an online influencer or content creator or, depending on who the teacher is, they use different words, because I'm realizing that that's where a lot of people are getting information. And so if I've got good information, I need to be there to kinda, like, soften up all the not-so-great information that's out there. 'Cause maybe people will pick up my book, but they're probably more likely to find me on TikTok, so let me make sure I'm over there. Lindsay Lyons: Yes. Okay. So now, that's a great segue, I want to just give space to talk about your book, and also, like, where people can find it and you online. Dr. Darla Bishop: Oh, thank you so much. So we have a few books. So we have How to Afford Everything, and that's the book for grown-ups. So this one is best for someone who's e- earning money, so, like, 16 and up. Now, a 16-year-old's probably not gonna write it. Most of my readers are, like, 25 and up. And then I've got How to Afford College, because many of us, depending on how we grew up, education can be absolutely a pathway to a different life trajectory, right? A different type of career, a different type of environment, a different city and state. And so if I don't understand the financials of getting to and through college, I might end that college with more debt than I needed to have, just because I didn't know any better. I didn't know any different. So that's what How to Afford College about. And then the book that I shared with you is the children's book, which is part of a bigger series that will be coming out in 2026. It's called Madeline's Money Adventure, and this is our storybook version with that lesson for that early elementary, so the, like, f- four to 10-year-olds, right? Like, the 10-year-old can read it to their little sibling but will be bored by it kind of thing. And this is, introduces the basics of money and some of the language and how we can relate to it. And it's bilingual English/Spanish because that was important to my family and my community, so we put the, both languages right on the same page. The easiest way to find me is go to darlabishop.com, and all the links are there Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, I'm actually gonna go buy that children's book right now 'cause I have not yet. And thank you for this conversation, Dr. Bishop. This was so fun. Dr. Darla Bishop: Yeah, thank you for having me. I know we chatted a long time, so sorry listeners, this was a long one. Lindsay Lyons: No, it was an excellent long one. 
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In this episode, we talk with Christina Hideck about the transformative potential of parent involvement in schools. Christina is a former attorney, now working as a professional organizer who is passionate about parent-teacher relationships. She’s the author of The Principal’s Parent Group Playbook, which offers practical tips and strategies for any PTO to implement.
Christina discusses the importance of recognizing parents as an under-leveraged pillar in school communities, the need for collaborative strategic planning between parent groups and school stakeholders, and the significance of institutional knowledge sharing to support effective school-parent (guardian) partnerships. The Big Dream Christina envisions a world where every school boasts a healthy and functional parent group. She believes that when parent groups operate effectively, the potential for creating a positive impact on the school environment is limitless. Mindset Shifts Required The conversation debunks two big myths around parent (guardian) involvement in the school. First, involvement doesn't equate to a never-ending commitment, and there isn’t an expectation to know anything before getting started. On the teacher-administrator side, it’s important to recognize that parents are coming in with very little experience in running a healthy and efficient school parent group, so they need support. Both parents and school stakeholders need to overcome misconceptions and stereotypes about parent-teacher organizations (PTOs) and recognize each other's roles and potential to work collaboratively. Action Steps To begin cultivating a thriving partnership between school stakeholders and family members, Christina emphasizes these high-leverage action steps to take: Step 1: Start with common or shared goal setting. What does the school really want to do? What parents are already excited about making that happen? What are parents hoping to accomplish? Getting on the same page about the shared goals can help set everyone up for success. Step 2: For school employees, identify areas where parental support could significantly enhance school goals and open these opportunities to families. Then, be open to how family members want to be involved, let them take action on what’s important, and communicate transparently with families about school goals, values, and opportunities. Step 3: Access resources through your PTA (a parent-teacher association, which, unlike PTOs, a PTA has more resources through the credentialing body) or Christina’s PTO Answers. Step 4: Cultivate empathy and understanding. Teachers and educators need to understand that family members don’t know how schools operate today; they are only able to reference what they did in school decades ago. Teachers can come alongside family members to help them understand how things operate now. Challenges? A significant challenge is to dismantle outdated perceptions of PTOs as merely event planners. School leaders and parents must work together to ensure that parent groups are seen as vital partners in the educational process. One Step to Get Started For parents, reflect on how you can actively participate in your child’s school, whether that’s volunteering in class, bringing in theatre projects, or something else you’re passionate about. Getting involved exists on a wide spectrum of time, effort, and energy, and you can consider what’s best for your situation. For educators and school leaders, reach out to a parent during open house events and start a conversation about how they can assist with specific school initiatives. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on their website, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing the PTO Family Engagement Opportunity Assessment with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 262 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Christina Hydock, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Christina Hidek: Oh, Lindsay, I am so excited for our conversation today. Lindsay Lyons: Me too, and I, I have been thinking a lot. I know you said before we hit record, you know, I'm really interested in, like, the expansion of my understanding of shared leadership to encompass families as well as, like, the typical students that I'm talking about. So really excited about that family school partnership dynamic. That's what's on my mind today. But wondering anything that's on your mind that you want people to kind of keep in mind throughout the episode. Christina Hidek: I think that including parents is just really important, and it is often an overlooked, under-leveraged kind of third pillar of, like, the adult, adults in the room for schools, right? You have the school leaders, you have the teachers. And when I say teachers, I mean staff and, like, e- e- everyone, right? So that's just, like, shorthand for everyone who's not an administrator, I guess. And, um, so yeah, just the ... It's just they're under-leveraged, and I would love to ... Under-leveraged, under-recognized, overlooked, and under-celebrated. Lindsay Lyons: A lot of potential there. Yes, Christina Hidek: there is so much po- so, like, that was a lot of negativity, but I guess I would also love for people who maybe have not had the best experience with a parent group in the past, maybe this is your chance to, like, reset and reframe and think about that was that. Because the, the biggest thing is that parent groups, they change from year to year, which is awesome, but very frustrating. And so you have really a new opportunity. Just like when you have a new set of kids in your classroom, you have the opportunity to kind of reset things. It's the same with the parents. Lindsay Lyons: It segues nicely into this first question I usually ask around freedom dreaming. So Dr. Bettina Love describes dream, uh, freedom dreaming as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so I am hearing a lot of injustice in, like, what you were describing, right? Is there's, there's this potential for family partnerships with school stakeholders, and we're not, we're not doing it. We're actually excluding a lot of families in our current system. So can you actually, like, reformulate that into, like, your dream? Like, what, what is the dream there? Christina Hidek: I would love for every school to have a healthy and functional parent group. In my own kids' schools and have seen what the parent groups who are f- not always been 100% healthy or productive or functional. Like, there are still, there's amazing things that can get done even there. So imagine if, one, everyone had a parent group, a, and then if they were, like, functional and healthy. Like, my mind just can't even handle the awesomeness of the potential Lindsay Lyons: What are some of the mindset shifts that either family members or school stakeholders, leaders, teachers, sh- should kind of go through to be able to make that dream a reality? I think there's a lot of probably misconceptions or kind of old ways of thinking of how traditionally we've done things. Like, what's the shift there mindset-wise? Christina Hidek: All right. So for parents and guardians, right? So parents is shorthand for anybody who is responsible for a child in school. That's... I try to be really inclusive, but I use- It's important shorthand. So for parents, just know that you're being involved doesn't mean jumping through and into a black hole of never-ending commitments. So that's one, because I think so many people have the perception of school parent groups and being involved in school has been shaped by what they see. What do we see in, like, popular culture? Parent groups really are never positively represented. Normally, you see very dysfunctional groups where there's a power struggle over, by the parents, either internally or with the school about something that is of zero consequence. For example, the theme for the carnival. It's so reductive that that's what we care about, that, that, at p- as parents, we really are really willing to fight tooth and nail over a jungle theme or a Paris theme for a party, you know? Like, so one is parents know that you're not necessarily gonna get sucked into the black hole, that your involvement does matter in ways that you don't even realize how much it's gonna matter in, kinda, till after the fact. And that is one of the reasons why I've been involved for so long and in such kind of high-profile ways, that it was really, even though it was a lot of work, the payoff was there for me personally and also for my children. Um, so it wasn't completely altruistic in me giving back. I totally am getting something back. And the other thing is that parents, you don't need to know anything in order to get involved. No one is expecting you to have all the answers, and you can say, "I don't know." And so on the flip side, for everybody who is employed by the school, uh, know that parents are coming in with probably very little experience for running a healthy and efficient school parent group. Like, there is no PTO school. It's kind of the same with, like, the principals, school leaders, and teachers. There's no PTO school for them either. So they don't really know- The possibilities, if you have a really good experience, then great. Then, then that's kind of like your framework. But if you have a negative experience, then I think that's really gonna stunt the possibilities of what could be for you because that's your reality, and you don't know maybe how it should be. Lindsay Lyons: In terms of how we actually cultivate a thriving partnership between school stakeholders or people employed by the school, I like that phrasing, um, and, you know, family members, so parents, guardians, caretakers. Yeah. And I imagine there's a lot of pieces, and I've seen your website, there are a lot of pieces 'cause you have a lot of pieces in your blog posts- No, that's okay and things, which is great. I'm wondering about kind of some high-leverage practices or actions that PTO members or even families in general trying to get involved in PTOs could take. Like, what's the action on the family side, and then are there any actions that school administrators or teachers or staff could take to partner better with an existing PTO? Christina Hidek: Sure. I, I think it really comes down to common or shared goal setting because there are definitely some things that the school wants to make happen that's on their big wish list, but maybe they don't have time to make it happen. Well, then you maybe have some really motivated parents who are like, "We're here. Just point us in the right direction. We don't wanna s- step on your toes." 'Cause not every parent who wants to get involved has an agenda beyond wanting to improve the school parent group. Lindsay Lyons: I'm thinking about the, when you talked about the w- what I would think of as, like, the strategic plan or, like, um, kind of those big goals that, that stake- stakeholders in the schools have to set as part of just what they do as a leader, right? It's usually every five years, for example, districts have a, a strategic plan or schools have a strategic plan. And there's all these things that are tied to academic outcomes, to social-emotional outcomes of students, like, all these important things. And to contrast to your earlier example of, like, the carnival theme there's meat to some of this work already being done that I see as really powerful to kind of t- tap the PTO or partner with the PTO on existing structures and plans as opposed to having them completely separate. Christina Hidek: In my own groups, because I have been a leader, it's very much been shared when the school leaders have been open to it because not every school leader understands, like, the kind of deal. And I always, I have this little joke and I always say, "Oh, I gotta break in a new principal, kind of show them the ways of how we do things here." I'm very open to being collaborative. I want to support the school leader and the teachers. My mom is a retired teacher, so that's my background. I, I know the challenges. Not all of them, but a good, good amount. I, uh, have a very large, um, Facebook group, and th- one member recently posted, she's like, "Our- we're not working at all with our school. Like, th- we- I don't even know what we should be doing because it, they're taking care of everything." And I was like, "Well, reach out to that principal and get on their calendar and figure out where you can support them." There is space for you. You don't have to do identical things, but there's so much overlap, and so to have things separated is making things so much harder on both groups. There are some really fantastic synergistic benefits of coming together. So like you talk about the strategic plan, I, my district has done it I think three times now, and I was involved with two out of the three this last time. My kids are almost done, and I was like, it is time for other people to step up and have their opinions kind of come in because I've had my time. But I found the process to be so beneficial and helped me understand more of what the school's plans were and how they were approaching issues. And then I'm like, oh, uh, we need to change things. 'Cause in my district there was, the first strategic plan, there was a big emphasis, and this was just me because the person in the room was the loudest, talking about the need for discipline and that things were running amok. And I'm like, I, I don't ... That's not my experience of, uh, seeing what's going on in our buildings. But that she really wanted that stressed in that strategic plan. But it was kind of old school thinking of- Lindsay Lyons: Been there as a coach in those conversations. You're like, "Let's pivot. We're unearthing-" "... root causes here that we might need to get into." Yeah. But I, I love that you were part of the strategic plan for two out of those three, and I'm curious, were you in the room with the strategic planning committee? Were there multiple, uh, family representatives- Yeah ... and then you kind of came back to the PTO? Was it actually a topic on a PTO agenda somewhere? Like how, how does it li- where does it live? Christina Hidek: For me, the first two times we were actually in the room where the decisions were happening, and the first time, uh, I think we were led by outside consultants. There were multiple PTO leaders who were there. And then the second time, they didn't approach the strategic plan in the same way, and so we immediately broke into committees. I think they may have given us a choice about what committee we could go to. Um, but we were there crafting the individual objectives and laying it out, and then able to give feedback, 'cause there were some things that we were like, "Oh, this is something the PTO can, like, totally help with." Like, "Did you know?" And they were like, "Really?" And I'm like, "Y- yeah." My recollection is that it was only the, on the PTO agenda as far as an opportunity to get involved, but not something we were separately tracking, 'cause the people who were volunteering were very much in the thick of things. So they were ... Like, I think the second time that I was on the, the participate in the strategic planning process, I was a leader in multiple buildings, so multiple PTA units. So Lindsay Lyons: that makes sense that your representative kind of brought things back, brought opportunities back, and then it could become an agenda item. It sounds like that's, that's awesome. Um, I'm also thinking back to when you o- originally started answering this question, thinking about the skills and also resources and kind of institutional knowledge that people employed by the school have that easily could support the PTO, but often the PTO doesn't have access to or the training on. Have you been part of any sort of, like, skill building or resource allocation or resource building, institutional knowledge sharing that was helpful? And how might leaders in schools learn from that? Christina Hidek: Well, yes, that's why I started my company. So I've totally built out resources because I saw that. Do you know the difference between a PTA and a PTO? Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, but I only learned that from listening to you on another podcast. So can you share- Okay. ... with our audience? Christina Hidek: So it's like, okay, good. I wanna go over this just 'cause there's so many misconceptions. In the US, there are over 60,000 different PTOs. So PTOs are parent teacher organizations, but they don't That maybe that's not their name. They could maybe be a parent council, a homeschool association, a parent and teacher club, a parent c- council. Like, there's a gajillion different names. Mostly independent organizations. They are not part of a larger umbrella organization, unless they happen to be a PTA. So a PTA is a parent teacher association, which is affiliated with the state and national PTA. So those parent groups all funnel up into the national PTA. So they have some training, some guidance, some, um ... There are standards of affiliation that they have to meet every year, so kind of, like, they have to pay membership dues. They have to be, have in- insurance. They have to be up to date with filing their 990, you know, all the tax forms to stay compliant. Because by virtue of being a PTA, they, they kind of inherit their 501[3] nonprofit status from the parent organization of the state PTA. PTOs are independent. So all PTAs are PTOs, but not all PTOs are PTAs. So many people think that because you're a PTO, that you have access to resources, and that is false unless you are a PTA. And even if you are a PTA, you might not have everything you need. Because these are volunteer organizations, there is a shocking lack of infrastructure to ensure that the incoming leader or volunteer g- has the same access to the resources as the person before. There is not a mechanism for capturing all of the knowledge from the volunteer to, like, kind of download what's in their brain and put it in a format that someone new to the group can take on, which is super frustrating. And so that's kind of why, why I started PTO Answers, quite honestly, 'cause I thought, "It shouldn't be this hard." I personally was frustrated. I wrote a book last year, which is bananas pants, 'cause I never thought I would write a book. So it's the, um, Principal's Parent Group Playbook, and it tells you everything that, uh It's basically PTO school in a book for school leaders on what to kind of expect from a PTO or PTA, what their role is, how the PTO or PTA should kind of be set up, what they should be looking for in order to make sure that everything's on the right track, and then gives, like, a breakdown of, like, specifically what to do, uh, for an ent- entire calendar year so that you, you kind of know what, what to expect. Can you guess the last time a book about PTOs or PTAs was written? Exclusively about PTO or PTAs. Like, not, like, a one-line sentence reference in a family engagement book. 1920. There was a republishing in, uh, like, I think maybe six years ago, but it was from that 1920 or 1926 book. Lindsay Lyons: So in all of your writing and research and building all of this stuff, are there particular skills or institutional knowledge pieces that you have found to be critical, but, but often families don't have that coming in? Like, they haven't had the access, they haven't had the institutional knowledge, experience, or exposure. Like, w- can you share, like, one or two of those things just so leaders and teachers can be aware that this is something that they're gonna need to support? Christina Hidek: Parents don't understand how schools work. The last time they were probably in a school was when they were a student. Things have changed. Expectations have changed. Ways of teaching have changed. And that once you have kind of, not empathy, but just, like, a baseline understanding of that and going, "Oh, yeah, their perspective is from 20, 30 years ago. Now I get..." Like, you gotta have just a little- I guess it is empathy. Saying, you know, "This is where they're coming from," and, "Oh, I might need to have a little patience with them to kind of bring them up to speed of how we, how we do things here." Lindsay Lyons: There's a lot of communication required. So I'm thinking about, you know- Yeah ... leader communication, teacher communication. Whether it is through students, sending things home through students, but also just directly to families to say things like, "These are our goals. These are our school values. This is our bell schedule." That like, uh, all of the, the logistics, but also to invite family members into the school perhaps. Christina Hidek: Yes, yes. And it's, it's beyond, I think, the logistics, 'cause that's easy enough, I think, to communicate. But to, it's more of the way that we do things here, and the, the culture pieces. There was one school and a new principal came in, and she happens to be a micromanager. That school leader was not willing to trust or empower the parents to kind of do their own thing. And it's a shame because par- parent participation really has struggled at that school since she's been there. The high school PTA had a principal who didn't really care for the PTA, and he acted like we were just wasting his time, and he was just very difficult to work with. They brought in a new principal, and it was a totally different experience, and that was my first year of being the president at that PTA unit. And it was probably one of my most favorite years because the principal just said, "Let's, yeah." Like said yes to everything. Was like, "Let's do it." I was like, "Can seniors wanna have a lock-in for after prom?" He's like, "Sure." I was like, "W- wait, I'm sorry. You think that this is gonna be cool to have 250 kids overnight?" He goes, "You know what? We, we already did it earlier with the football team, so like, what's more kids?" And I was like, "Oh my God, I love you." So, and it wasn't just 'cause he said yes. It was because we would meet and talk about what was going on, but also we got to know each other personally. And, um, I would bring him treats. He was a really funny guy. I'm talking about him in the past tense 'cause unfortunately he did pass away, which was so traumatic for our school community. But I've had the experience of working with three different principals in that building, and boy, there are such differences. What's really important to know is that the, the parents are coming in. Maybe they don't have resources, and maybe you need to be the catalyst to get that because it can help with your own sanity. So even though the PTO, maybe they could find it, maybe you can like solve some of your own problems by going, "Here." Here, go, go to PTO Answer. She has got like, all these different blog posts so that it can help guide them so that they are in a position to then help you with your building goals or professional goals. Lindsay Lyons: I'm hearing a lot of feeling like you're not in it together is really frustrating when the ... you get that kind of vibe from the administrator. But it can be transformative maybe when the leader is actually in, in true partnership, willing to not just listen to what you're trying to say and, like, truly value your perspective, but also being willing to try something that might initially seem uncomfortable. Are there things you would add? Christina Hidek: Oh my gosh, but yeah, you don't have time for that, 'cause we'd be here for like, weeks. 'Cause I have a lot to say about that. 'Cause it's so ... It's more ... PTOs are more complex than it ... they appear on their face. Like, on the face it, it, of things, it looks like they're just party planners or event planners or fundraisers, but really their purpose goes far beyond that. And that's ... I- if you're just stopping there, if that's all you're getting to, where you're not truly including them as partners, then that's a missed opportunity for you. Lindsay Lyons: Really appreciate that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. As we move to close, we've talked about a lot of things. What is one thing that you would encourage perhaps a, a family member to do once they end the episode and/or, like, a, a leader or teacher, someone from the school employee side? Christina Hidek: As a parent, look at your school. Look at your child. What do you w- how do you wanna make their next school year more awesome? And w- what role can you play in that? Is it that you wanna volunteer in the classroom? Is it that you would like to bring theater in to, uh, to better support... I don't know. I have a friend who, her child is in, oh geez, fifth grade, and she helps work on the high school, like, set design and do- and does that, in addition to the other work she does for the PTA. Um, and then as the school employee side, what do you want that you need help with that you would be open to having help from the PTO with, or a parent? Doesn't even have to be the PTO. Let's, let's broaden it out. But there are ... And if you think there's no one to help, then, uh, we need to have some conversations with parents. W- make open house, that your goal, to find one parent to help you. You know, when I was writing my book, one of the things I, I discovered that what is now the STEM program at the high school was initially funded by the PTA, that a teacher asked for some money, the PTA was there to fund that. And, like, how awesome is that? Lindsay Lyons: That's super cool. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. One of the questions I like to ask at the very end, just for fun, could be about what we're talking about, could be totally something else. What is something that you personally have been learning about lately? We love learning on this show. Christina Hidek: Ooh, I do love learning. I'm trying to think. I am an- I am, uh, I love to learn about things and nerd out about things. Um, I've read an entire book about olive oil. Okay, I can talk at length about olive oil because of this book. It, it was so knowledgeable. And you might think, "How does that impact you?" Well, I know how to buy a really good olive oil now and not spend a fortune. I will give you the, um, too long, didn't read version. Uh, Costco, their house brand, Kirkland Signature, actually is a very high quality olive oil that is not cut with fillers, because that is something we do. Apparently chocolate is more regulated in the United States than olive oil. I- Lindsay, it's, it's a whole thing. I highly recommend that book. I think it's called Extra Virginity. Every once in a while I make a list of things that I would like to learn, and then I'll, like, go look for it. For example, I want to get on stages to talk to principals and teachers at conferences, and I was like, "Well, I need to up my public speaking game, and I need to quit saying 'um' so much." So I Googled that, went onto YouTube, and this, the one video, his suggestion was just to close your mouth at the end of a sentence. I tried it. It works. Lindsay Lyons: I'm gonna borrow that now. Thank Christina Hidek: you. You can't say "um" if your mouth is closed, and I'm like, that is so, like, functionally simple. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for sharing both your process and the things you're learning. I learned a lot from you. Finally, where can listeners and the audience members learn more about you? I know you mentioned ... We both mentioned you have a website. You mentioned you have a book. What are the places people can go to check that out? Christina Hidek: Yeah. So I- the primary resource where all the awesomeness can be found in, for my world is at PTOanswers.com. I have freebies, like, uh, for principals, I have a PTO family opportunity, family engagement opportunity assessment that helps you maybe re-approach your PTO to look at maybe where you're overlooking, uh, opportu- for potentials, I think, for to get more families engaged. For teachers, I have a freebie that covers five no- no-brainer ways to improve the teacher-parent group relationship. I've really framed it as a parent relationship, but it's how to get, like, it's everything the PTO or PTA wishes that teachers would understand. And then for parent volunteers, pick a role and there is some guidance for you. Like, if you were a room parent, president, treasurer, uh, because- Everyone is capable of serving in a PTO, no matter their background, no matter their experience or education level. Everyone should consider becoming involved just because of the benefits to you personally and your family and your community too. Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Christina, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Christina Hidek: Oh, it was such a fabulous time, and I loved our discussion, Lindsay 
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In this episode, we talk with Molly Arbuthnott, an educator-turned-writer who is now the author of 18 picture books for children. Her stories all have animal characters and often dive into real-life themes that champion the underdog and help build up self-confidence and self-belief.
As a champion of children’s literacy, she shares her insights into the transformational power of picture books for children and adults alike. Molly advocates for a shift in perspective regarding how these books are perceived and utilized in education and at home. The Big Dream Molly's big dream is that of self-belief, in line with the theme of the “underdog” in many of her own books. She also wants to redefine picture books as a resource not just for children, but as literature that holds value for all ages. She aims to transform picture books from entry-level reading material into versatile and profound stories that resonate universally. Mindset Shifts Required To fully appreciate the value of picture books, Molly suggests breaking away from the idea that they’re only a starting point for young readers. Instead, picture books have rich narratives that offer opportunities for all readers to explore complex themes. It's about understanding the depth possible in art and story, encouraging all participants to view picture books as tools for lifelong learning and conversation. Action Steps Picture books can be a powerful tool for learning and growth in both the home and school settings. Molly recommends these steps to start using picture books to their full potential. Step 1: Don’t “dumb it down.” Molly’s own books feature deep themes like death, and she believes it’s a disservice to our children to gloss over things they will have to experience at some stage in life. Instead, the picture book format makes it possible to engage in these important topics in an age-appropriate way. Don’t shut down questions, but engage in those conversations. Step 2: Introduce picture books in varied settings beyond primary education, such as in literature circles in higher grades or within family reading time. Increased exposure to picture books helps people of all ages engage in and learn from them. Step 2: Encourage children to interpret picture books independently and express their unique perspectives through discussions. It’s also important to allow children to pick their own books and make choices around what they want to read and learn. Step 3: Allow picture books to lead to broader conversations about real-world concepts, current events, and personal growth, exploring topics that matter to children and their communities. This can be particularly helpful when engaging in high-emotion topics around identity. Picture books, like those that use animals as main characters, can help us engage in topics without attributing identity markers Step 4: Keep it fun! Picture books are full of joy, and stories bring the imagination alive. Lean into this. Challenges? A significant challenge lies in balancing adult-driven book markets with fostering children's preferences and choices in reading materials. Ensuring that children are actively involved in selecting what they read and discussing it can counteract this imbalance and empower young minds. One Step to Get Started Begin by selecting a picture book that resonates with a current topic or theme your children are encountering. Use this book as a springboard to facilitate discussions and relate the narrative to personal experiences or broader societal issues, thereby making reading a more interactive endeavor. Stay Connected You can find out more from Molly and her books over on her website and Instagram. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing their course Animal Story Kit with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 261 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Molly, welcome to the Time for Teacher Shift podcast. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited you're here. I am really excited, particularly as this is airing in a kind of miniseries directed towards both teachers and families, thinking about families supporting kids as they read, whether they're reading picture books, whether they're, um, you know, chapter books. Whatever they're reading, I'm really excited about your background as an educator and involvement with books specifically. Um, that's kind of what is on my mind as we enter this conversation. Is there anything on your mind as we enter the conversation that you want people to be aware of, kind of as we continue? Um, not off the top of my head. I'm just really happy to be here chatting about the joy of picture books. Awesome. All right. Well, so I think my first question is the first question I have for every guest, which is really in line with freedom dreaming, which Dr. Bettina Love describes as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. What is that dream that you hold, whether it be for education, for kids' reading lives, for picture books broadly? Like, what's that dream for you? Um, the dream, I guess, well, all of my books are kind Molly Arbuthnott: of about the underdog who kind of comes out on top, so I guess it's the dream of, of self-belief, the American dream. And also, um, that a, the dream of, of a picture book being not just a children's book, but a book for, that anyone, um, reading it can get something out of. I think it's really important for adults to start embracing more picture books. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I can say actually just yesterday, colleagues of mine, all educators, are, were in this group chat around picture books, and like we're reading it for ourselves, not even for the kids. Molly Arbuthnott: Oh, amazing. Well, it's great. I mean, it's not... I, I think it's really the fault of the way we... This is going off piece a bit, but it's the fault of, well, not the fault, but it's the way that we teach reading, where the picture book's kind of the bottom rung of the ladder. And, and you then, you start with the picture book, and then you progress onto the chapter book or the bigger book. But really, the picture book should be top of the ladder because it is the one that most people can get something out of Lindsay Lyons: I, I love that. And as a former high school teacher who used picture books in our class- Yeah ... I can say the kids are really into it, too. Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. They, well, it, it uses a particular part of the brain, and it's a really easy way for particularly with parents having less time in, in modern life to read with their kids or having other priorities, it's a really easy way to engage with a child, um, just by looking at, uh, because it's kind of, it gives the kid kind of, it's a two-way interreaction rather than it just being from one person. So it's a really fun bonding experience beyond just being a story. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so you've already kind of shared a bunch of mindsets or mindset shifts for- ... people. I think that's brilliant. Are there any other things that people should be aware of or have a sp- particular mindset around as they, particularly families I'm thinking of, that are reading with their kids as they encounter this situation where, where they're opening a picture book together. Is there a particular thing they should have in mind as they read? Molly Arbuthnott: To not dumb it down. So I very much have, uh, death, uh, in my books. I've got all sorts of concepts that are quite, uh, deep. Um, and I think that it's a great disservice to a kid if we kind of gloss over things that they potentially or definitely will experience at some stage in life. I mean, it's, it's in an animal form, all my books, so it's kind of a degree of separation. It's not as in your face as it would be otherwise. But I think they're still really important topics, and to not, if the kid raises it, to not just brush it, brush over it, but to actually take the time to answer their questions and, and sort of give them a sense of understanding, because then they'll be much more confident in it as a subject if they kind of know. Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. And so is there a particular either scene or storyline from one of your books that you wanna give us an example of? Like, here's something that happens in the book, here's how a child might respond, here's how you as a family member m- might respond or engage in that conversation. Molly Arbuthnott: Sure. Well, I mean, there are two quite deep stories off the top of my head, I'd say. I, I've written, for anyone, uh, sort of zoning into my books for the first time, there are 18 different picture books, um, about different animals. They all deal with different concepts, different stories, different locations, different adventures. But, um, the one that springs to mind, Angus the Robin, is about a, um, there's a house and there's an accident essentially that happens. And suddenly, I don't, I don't, uh- Expressly say what's there, but I say that there are blue flashing lights, and then it's up to the reader to interpret that as they choose. Um, but then so that kind of leaves it fairly open to chat and discussion about what the blue flashing lights could be, where they could be going, why, what they could be taking, and that kind of thing. And then in, um, in Athena the Cheetah, there is actually a physical death. The- or two brothers, one of them, um... I, I lived in Kenya for a while, so that's what inspired that story. One of them, um, one of the boys gets his foot, um, uh, there's a, there's a crocodile in the river, and the crocodile gets one of the brothers. So again, obviously chances are most readers will not be beside crocodile-infested lakes when they're reading the story. So it's not a literal kind of discussion, but it's a discussion about importance of, of staying together and what happens if someone you really care about has an accident. And accidents do happen all the time, um, and so you can maybe sort of switch it into being an accident that they might relate to or understand and how you can deal with it and, and understand. In the story, I'm not gonna give the story away completely, but the boy who's left, he goes, uh, mute. And so then as well that could lead to the discussion with parents as to why he doesn't talk because, I mean, the kids might come acro- there are, uh, pe- kids who you find don't talk for whatever reason, and so then that can lead into discussion about that and why they might not be talking and what you can do to help and what they might be feeling inside and all that kind of thing. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for sharing those examples. And just I, I love the broadening of how, yes, we read this thing, but then what does that mean f- for these other maybe related concepts or related- Mm ... applications in your life. I think that's a really nice takeaway for families and teachers to be able to facilitate conversation and sense-making. I, I know also that you are really interested, I think you use the phrase children as gatekeepers. And, and so can you talk about, a little bit about how, like, we as adults can support children in, in making choices around books or, or what that kind of means for you in, in that phrase you use? Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah, well, I, I... it's a really important, um, concept for me because very often as a writer of, I mean, inevitably as a writer of children's books you are kind of having to appeal to two markets because it's the kids who will be reading it, but it's the parents who will be buying it. So it's quite a tricky kind of balance. But it really essentially is you have to be gearing it at what the kids- need, and, and, and they're the ones kind of driving the, um, driving the decisions. It was really because I've started applying for competitions for my books a bit more, uh, constructively this year. It's something that I've never done before, and I kind of was figuring that, well, great, but again, it's the adults kind of driving the demand and driving the books that you see on the shelves, and driving what comes out on top, and driving what wins. And all of these algorithms and things are generated by the people who work rather than by the kids themselves, and how you can shift that. I'm going off to Bologna Book Fair next week, and again, that's a fair for kids books, but it's, it's very much the adults who are there. And so as a kid, I, I mean, you have very, they have very little power inevitably of what they pick and choose to do with their lives. But how to address that kind of power and balance, and to give the kids a bit more say over what it is that they want to read and they want to find out and they want to learn. Because even in a curriculum in school, I mean, you're very much told what to do and think. I mean, up until about six or seven, and then it kind of, there's that shift of when you're supposed to be educated. And I think in some ways it kind of de-educates, because you kind of lose your independence of thought in some ways. Anyway, sorry, I feel I'm segueing a bit. But- I mean, Lindsay Lyons: that's very connected to all the things we talk about on this podcast, so you're in good company. Molly Arbuthnott: Um, but I think it's, I, I, I don't know what the answer is personally, but I feel that there needs to be a way that kids can articulate what it is they want to know. But then in some ways as well, they're figuring out the world, and so they maybe don't know. I mean, it's, in some ways it's a responsibility as a adult who kind of knows a bit more to, um, to articulate what it is you think they want to hear. I mean, an example at the moment from, for me, from my perspective, is I'm having to write, well, I'm, I've been asked to write a story about two guinea pigs, Mocha and Latte, who are in this school, Greenside Primary School, and I'm having to sort of direct it from the guinea pigs' perspective. Um, and try and kind of articulate how, I mean through a guinea pig, how a child would kind of see the world- And I mean, y- uh, you're much more... I think children are very much better at kind of living in the present than an adult, because as an adult, you kind of, not intentionally and not always, but you kind of put all these different layers on top of who you are, just in the nature of how your life kind of, how s- well, not always, but how sometimes your life pans out, that you have layers of parents getting older, layers of properties, layers of travel, layers of work, layers of relationships, layers of... You get all these, um, many, many more layers, and that kind of can, um, it can just cover up kind of your, uh... And, uh, a way to sort of be more in the present and actively appreciating what's around you, because you're covered up with all these layers all the time. So to kind of get into the child's mindset, you have to be very, you have to sort of take all those layers away and be very much aware of your surroundings, aware of what you hear, aware of what you see, and aware of how you interpret it. Because, um, that's the nice thing about books as well, that no one can say what you're seeing or thinking or feeling is right or wrong, because it's just your interpretation, and your interpretation could be the same as the person next to you or it could be completely different. That's kind of the joy of being a independent human being. And so, and so I guess, y- as a writer, you can never satisfy everybody, because everybody's views and opinions are different. But you can make it try to have resonance with as many different people as you can Lindsay Lyons: I love that too from the perspective of e- either a teacher or a family member who is working with kids and, and reading and having that experience of engaging in a picture book with kids, that there is no wrong answer. I think a lot of times in schools, right, it's right or wrong. It's like it's- Mm-hmm ... two and two is four. That is ... Anything else is incorrect. Like, there is a little bit of shyness or fear from students sometimes in speaking up and sharing what their thoughts are because they are fearful that they will be wrong, right? And so I love this idea of art, m- even more broadly beyond picture books, but picture books as a specific representation of art being one of interpretation and one of connection. And I, I also am very much thinking about, like, civics and, and civic conversations, uh, are- Mm-hmm ... I think particularly challenging in the States right now and thinking about how this is a beautiful, um, less emotionally charged perhaps example of how we can talk across different interpretations of a situation i- around picture books and, like, what a great practice opportunity to have different kids read the same book and have a different experience with it and be able to share that. Molly Arbuthnott: Exactly. Yeah, it's kind of a safe space for, um, articulating and, and learning actually to have your own opinion, which is really important and, and that it's all right to think something different from the person Lindsay Lyons: next to you. I'm also envisioning, you know, in high school we do a lot of, like, literature circles around a theme, but it sounds like maybe teachers could also use because you have such a wide range of books, right, that are maybe on particular topics, it might be, okay, we're gonna think about this topic of accidents, for example as you mentioned earlier, and invite students to choose maybe one book that speaks to them and, like, read and engage in, in that book and then be able to have conversations with kids who read different books. Do you think that w- would- Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, that's as well the joy of, um, of, of ... Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you can take a broad subject generally in schools I would say anyway, that's kind of how the curriculum's sort of centered around a broad subject, and then you find books that kind of relate to that in different ways. Um, and even ... I mean, it doesn't i- for, for, um, discussions like that it doesn't necessarily need to be just picture books. I mean, there are wonderful picture books that relate to all sorts of different subjects, but you can get a bit out of, out of a chapter book too. I mean, I feel like the whole, I mean, the whole thing is really to encourage- Uh, creativity and, uh, encourage imagination. And so any way that, that can do that is really good. I mean, my books, I tend to ... They're not super woke. They're kind of sticking to traditional values, which ... Just because that's kind of how I am. And, and for me, I kind of had to write about things I know rather than trying to make it something you don't know, 'cause I feel like you fall short in, in that respect. Lindsay Lyons: Certainly there are a lot of school districts who have, like in the United States anyways, like very much, like legal pressures for different things they can and can't talk about. So I think that will be appreciated there. And I think there's also so much connection to, like you said, in, in the broadening span, like people can have an entry point into whatever current event might be happening or whatever is happening identity-wise with them or their, their friends, um, to be able to enter into conversations and expand them beyond the book as well. Molly Arbuthnott: Yeah. Well, I mean, the nice thing as well, though, about an animal is that it's not irrespective of, of your, your stance on, on, on sort of who you are as a person. It, again, is a space where you can be anything because it's why I choose animals, because they're not high-bound by the rules and regulations that you are as an adult or as, as a person of having to sort of go to get up, go to work, go to school, come have lunch, go home. It gives you a lot more creative freedom, and with that it means that then you can have the freedom of interpretation. But going back to the themes you were saying, one of them is, um, I deal with climate change with David the Pizzly Bear, and that's about this bear who gets lost or goes out on an adventure and gets lost in, um, a, an ice field. And then, and then the ice melts and then he, they have to swim back home in order to get home. So that can open up about ... It's based on David Attenborough. Um, so again, that can lead to interpretation of him. And then also that, um, uh, ice fields, why they're melting and, and what we can do to help and to, to sort of stop the, um, climate crisis. But again, it has a happy ending, so it's kind of not all ... It's showing that even though things might be going wrong in the world, you, you kind of work around it and you just make it a new concept of it. And then actually also Conrad the Spider, that's a guitar-playing spider, and that, um, he loses his legs. He uses his legs as his guitar strings, then he loses his guitar and so he loses his legs. And it's about how you can go from great fame and fortune to being very poor and how people- the community around you kind of react and interpret that because, um, inevitably you, I mean, you're in- you're always kind of influenced a little bit by what people think and feel, and how you can And so then you can build resilience kind of up against that. And also they end up in a crisp packet, um, with a ladybird because obviously a spider's much smaller than a human, so that becomes their home. And then that can lead into concepts that, well, you can, um, just have an adventure kind of with a crisp packet or in your wall, in your garden behind your house. You don't need to, um, that especially when you're a kid or even when you're an adult as well, you can still have adventures without needing to travel to the other side of the world. I mean, it's all kind of in your mindset. So every day can be an adventure if you want it to be. It doesn't sort of have to be this great going on holiday that's the release. You can just make that be part of your day-to-day life. It's just a kind of different interpretation. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, like the expansiveness of how differently you could interpret that. Like, my brain immediately was going to, you know, uh, the crazing of, crisis of people being unhoused and like you know, like, well, you, you know, you could look up all of that research as well. So I think, you know, whatever your kid or kids, if you're in a class, right, are interested in, I think there's a lot of, like, follow-up research you could do to your point about the climate change and, like, who is this particular person that it's based off of? But also what are the, what's the information right now, and, like, how do we look at graphs over time? Like, there's so many jumping o- it's like a jumping off point into so many different areas, which is really cool. Oh, thanks. Well, Molly Arbuthnott: yeah, I hope so. I mean, I can't say I'm a massive environmental ... Well, I, I don't, in that respect, I don't preach what I teach, in that I do still travel. I have to travel quite a lot for work. Um, and so I do take planes, I do take, I do drive, I do do things that probably aren't so good for the environment. But then I balance it out in other ways. I mean, no one, we do still have to, have to live. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, great points. Um- Any- anything else you would like to tell, uh, families, educators? Any, um, advice that you have for engaging students and letting students lead the picture book conversations before we move to our final closing questions? Molly Arbuthnott: Um, just to keep it fun. Um, I find particularly with my work, I've always promised myself that if I ever stop enjoying what I'm doing, I'll change something. Um, for me, I spend- Most of my time, uh, doing my books, doing my work. And so it's really important for me that I really enjoy what I do, and I feel very lucky that I've been able to find that because a lot of people, um, a lot of people don't. And, uh, so I try and put joy into the books, so I'm hoping that the joy radiates out of the books. And then make it fun when you're sharing it. So I've got loads of costumes, I've got loads of resources that if anyone wants, I can very happily share, that bring each of the stories alive. And I love coming and reading the books and, and to kind of just let your imagination go. So, um, anything, anything can really happen because they're pretend animals, pretend places. Try and as well kind of think what the... When you're reading it, think from, try and kind of transform yourself into the animal that you're supposed to be being, and then it will give a lot more authentic, um, interpretation. That's Lindsay Lyons: great. Thank you for that advice. I'm, I'm imagining that, you know, someone is, is preparing to read perhaps for bedtime a story after listening and engaging with this episode, uh, and they're, they're ready for that now. Oh, good. Is there, uh- Thanks. Something that you have been... This is a fun question we like to ask all of our guests 'cause they're all lifelong learners. Something you have been learning about lately, either related to your work or just completely different. Ah, gosh, that's quite a good question. Um, well, this Molly Arbuthnott: school that I'm doing the guinea pig story about was designed by Goldfinger, like, you know, James Bond Goldfinger. So I've been researching, um, Goldfinger a fair bit recently. Um, and also I'm teaching, I'm learning the ukulele so that I can, um, play it when I'm doing, uh, story events. So I've been, uh, learning a bit of music as well. Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that is so- ... fun. I love it. And so you mentioned you have things, resources in addition to your books. You have all of your books. Where can people go to get that information, to connect with you online? Is there a place they Molly Arbuthnott: can- Well, I've got my website Um, and you can send a message through that. I have all the books available through my website. I don't think I have the resources. I could... I need to, I need to, um, work on that. Travelers is... Or the more books you do, I thought it would get way easier, but it gets so much harder. There's just so many things to suddenly think about. Um, and so it kind of eats into, uh, um, um, time a bit. But yeah, so I would, um, look on my website. They're available on Amazon as well and all good wholesalers. And I, uh, I'm coming actually to New York, because you're in Boston, so not too far away. Um, my publisher's in New Jersey. Uh, I do an annual book launch, and so I'm coming to New Jersey and I'm going to launch in September, and we hire a paddle boat and paddle around the Hudson River, and it's always very fun. So, so reach out to me for that if you'd be interested, and the more the merrier. Um, and it's always just really nice to hear from people. Um, and so do, uh, do send me a message. Maybe you could send... If, uh, whenever I go and do events, I always ask the kids what their favorite animals are, and it kind of can help inspire. Um, uh, if they have a favorite animal, it might end up in a, in a future subsequent book perhaps. That Lindsay Lyons: is awesome. Molly, thank you so much for your time and conversation today. Oh, well, thank you. Gosh, it's gone in a flash, but it's been lots of fun. 
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In this episode, we’re talking with Doug Bolton, PhD, who is a clinical psychologist, educator, and author of the book Untethered: Creating Connected Families, Schools, and Communities to Raise A Resilient Generation. Against a backdrop of current all-time high stress levels for both students and teachers, Doug emphasizes the importance of focusing on relationships over achievements and how the pressure to excel in academic settings can undermine mental health.
He also introduces the "Circle of Courage" model, highlights current research in the field, and shares meaningful mindset shifts from focusing on data and test scores to nurturing relational and personal growth. The Big Dream Doug’s big dream is to redefine what it means to be successful. He wants to see our system go beyond traditional metrics such as test scores and school selectivity and help students grow with robust intrinsic motivation, grounded in community, and encouraged by healthy emotional and social connections. Mindset Shifts Required There are some significant mindset shifts to move the focus away from data-driven success towards personal development and wellness. This includes reducing the emphasis on test scores, allowing children to experience and manage stress constructively, and recognizing the vital role of relationships in achieving holistic well-being. Action Steps While many people might say that they want kids to be holistically well, there is still a lot of pressure in the academic setting. This causes high stress for students, but also teachers and parents in the system, too. To start redefining our metrics of success for children or students, Doug encourages educators or leaders to start here with some of these action steps. Step 1: Understand the research. Achievement testing has been found to undermine mental health and cause higher levels of stress and anxiety… without producing higher test scores. The system is broken, and understanding that is the first step to change. Step 2: Engage in community-building activities within educational environments. Research shows that a sense of belonging through strong relationships is essential to all the metrics we care about: mental health, academic performance, attendance, etc. Step 3: Implement schedules that include “pause and ponder” times (a concept borrowed from Mary Jo Barrett) for children and adults alike to rest their nervous systems. To really engage with the world, we need to give our nervous system a rest through good sleep, quiet time, and less pressure, so that we can then go forward and learn, engage, and grow. This can be implemented in a school or home setting. Step 4: Use the Circle of Courage model, which is born of Native American tradition, and emphasizes the four main needs we get from community: belonging, mastery, independence, and generosity. When a child is struggling, we ask, where is the circle broken? What do we need to focus on? Doug unpacks this model in further detail in his book Challenges? One of the main challenges highlighted is overcoming societal norms that prioritize academic achievement as a sole indicator of future success. There's also the challenge of reshaping institutional policies that place undue stress on students and educators, potentially leading to burnout and disengagement. One Step to Get Started Doug’s biggest action step to start putting this all into motion is the pause and ponder. He recommends using family dinners as one way to do this in the home, or for educators to purposefully build it into their classroom schedules. These moments to pause should be protected and prioritized before scheduling other additional activities. Stay Connected You can stay connected with Doug Bolton on his website, and grab a copy of his book to dive deeper into everything we discussed today: Untethered. To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Co-Creating Class Agreements slide deck with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 260 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Doug Bolton, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Doug Bolton: Lindsay, it's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Lindsay Lyons: I am so glad that y- we're both here at the same time talking about this. This is so important, and I, I just ... I, I am really excited f- because you talk about, like, you know, building resilience and, and, and building resilience in kids. Um, I also think about, like, how stressed out a lot of w- l- like, children now are. I mean- Speaker 3: Yeah ... Lindsay Lyons: you know, across the years certainly, but you read about the anxious generation, and that's, like, very- Yeah ... top of mind for me as well. So I'm wondering, as we jump into the conversation today, is there something on your mind that you wanna bring to the forefront or that people should just know as they engage with the episode? Doug Bolton: Well, thank you. You know, I think that the thing that strikes me the most as I think about this work and the crisis of resilience is it's not just kids who are struggling right now. Um, you know, the teachers, there's never been a time when teachers have been so stressed. The teachers, Gallup found that K12 teachers are the most stressed profession in America right now. And the, and the surgeon general recently released a, uh, advisory for parents, that just being a parent puts you at risk for mental health problems. So I guess I, I wanna say the whole system. I think kids are the down- are kind of downstream of a system that we've created that's stressing everyone out. And I, I guess that would be my hope, is to take a look at that whole system as we talk about this today. Lindsay Lyons: That's a really good segue into my next question. Hmm. So I think, uh, you know, Dr. Bettina Love talks about dreams grounded in the critique of injustice in, in terms of- Yeah ... dreaming. And I am wondering, like, what is that dream you hold for young people, whether it's families, whether it's through the education system? Like, yeah, what's that dream for you? Doug Bolton: Yeah, no, I love, I love that quote. Um, I'd never heard that before. It's beautiful. You know, I think my, my dream is that we can redefine what it means to be successful, um, and, and in doing so, recognize that, um, our metrics for success, which has typically been, um, achievement test scores, um, um, enrollment at a high-achieving school, um, whatever that looks like, um, are things that have, um, really, I think, um, been damaging to everybody in the system. The, the people who find that hard, find it hard for them to reach those goals, um, because their, their brain isn't suited to, to how we do education and they're ... Um, or the people who are really good at it who then begin to define themselves by their achievement and not by who they are, and parents who begin to define themselves by how successful their kids are, um, educators who define themselves by how many of their students go on to high-achieving schools, high, I mean, highly selective schools. And so, so I guess what I would like to do, uh, um, a lot of the research and reading I've been doing now has been, um, really focused on- How when we set a goal for something, when we say, "This is what we want," oftentimes, um, uh, uh, in order to, um, um, uh, I think they call it obliquity, which is this, this, um, when you're seeking profit as an organization, you end up oftentimes tanking the organization. When you seek high-quality products, the, um, y- you know, the, um, the money comes, the money follows. But when we focus, it... So we've gotta be careful what we focus on. And what the research has said all along is that when we invest in relationships and our relational lives, um, we're happier, we're healthier, we're more successful, um, achievement comes easier. Um, when we focus on achievement, um, all of a sudden those are the things that are the first things to go, and, and it's ended up with, I think, a, a whole system that is overly stressed. So did I answer the question with my dream? So my dream is we redefine what it means to be successful as a child. I think that that would be, that would be what I would say. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I love how you painted a nice holistic picture of how that touches everyone, right? Yeah. And that touches everyone, but all children, but all people involved in children's lives as well, and I- Yeah ... I love that dream. I know you mentioned a lot about the research, and I know you've been steeped in the research for writing your book, for just all that you do. And, and I'm curious, can you share, uh, you know, a, a little bit more about any of the research you've learned on, you know, mental health? And like, oh, y- you talked about, you know, all spectrums in terms of achievement from a school perspective- Speaker 3: Yeah ... Lindsay Lyons: um, of kids. Like, you know, why, why is it so important that we take this seriously? Because a lot of times I think even though people have that dream in the back of their mind maybe, that they're like, "Yeah, I want my kid to be really, like, mentally well and, and, and holistically well." However, I feel also this stress around schools, and, like, I want them to be successful there, and there's this- Yeah tug. So why is it important that we do focus on, on redefining that success? Doug Bolton: Well, well, so it's, it's an interesting thing. The, um, the research, um, on attending a high- highly selective school is not, uh, is not the, does not, um, um, suggest that people who attend highly achieving, uh, high, uh, highly, um, highly selective schools are gonna be any more successful in life. There, there's a... And so if we take a look at that research, for instance, um, you know, kids don't learn more at a, um, highly selective s- college. Um, I'm from Illinois. It, um, you don't learn more if you go to a Northwestern versus a Northern Illinois. Um, and there is one thing that determines how much someone learns in college, and it's not how selective or how, um, high, uh, um, highly achieving the sc- the college is. Do you know what that is? Lindsay Lyons: No. Doug Bolton: How much you study Lindsay Lyons: Oh, nice. Doug Bolton: Right? So, so- Yeah ... uh, uh, wherever you go, if you study and invest, you're gonna learn, right? Uh, in, in a lot of these high, um, highly selective schools, y- you are learning from, um, teaching assistants and research assistants as much as you're doing anything. So, so, so that's one thing. D- do you make more money? No, you don't make more money. They did some interesting research where they had, um, uh... I don't know how they find this research, but they, uh, they took a look at people who got into high, uh, highly selective schools but couldn't go for one reason or another, and ended up going to a less selective school, like near, uh, uh, near home or whatever because they couldn't leave, versus people who did end up going to highly selective schools. And, uh, um, 10 years later, they, they were making, uh, uh, there was no difference in the money. The, the interesting thing was that the people who went to the highly selective schools often felt underpaid because, uh, you know... So, uh, so these are... So the, the things that, um, that we think are the drivers of success are not the drivers of success, and but they are the drivers of stress, and, and our desire to get kids into these highly, um, high, highly selective schools, to get them into AP classes, to get them to believe that they've gotta be in the top 10% of their class, the, um, worrying about homework, worrying about, uh, about these grades as if this is a, that they're, uh, they're either gonna get or lose a ticket to success in life. None of that holds, and, and yet this is what drives so much of, um, parent, teacher, and student stress and anxiety. Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that was a really good synthesis of, like- ... why you shouldn't focus on this, and why you should focus on this instead. Thank you. Um, I love that you talked about investing in relationships a little while ago. Mm-hmm. And I would love if you could expand on that. Like, what, what is the kind of mental health value or the, you know, value in general of doing that, i- investing in relationships and community? Doug Bolton: Yeah. You know, it's a, it's an interesting thing. Um, there's a, uh, um, a, a metaphor. It's a public health parable actually that I think is a metaphor for our, um, for our mental health crisis today. And, uh, these two people are sitting by a river having a picnic, and, uh, and they look up and there's a child in the river drowning. And they dive in, and they get this child to safety, and they're exhausted. And they look up, and there are two more kids in the water. They go back in, and they get those kids to safety, and then they turn around and the river is filled with these kids who need their help. And, uh, and one of them just dives in and starts pulling kids out of the river, and the other one goes up on shore. And the one in the water says, "What are you doing? I can't save these kids on my own." And the one on shore says, "I'm going upstream. We've gotta figure out why these kids are falling in." And- And, you know, when we take a look at what's upstream of mental health, what's upstream in resilience is our interpersonal connections and relationships. So, um, a couple, a couple of things is they, is, that are r- related and connected to this. First of all, when you're embedded in a belonging community, um, you're more motiv- motivated to learn, you perform better academically, you have better attendance, you're healthier, you have better mental health, right? All of the things that we worry most about. Um, so... And, um, for the kids who are s- most stressed, the kids-- it buffers, um, the impact of stress and trauma. And so, so when I-- if I was to look for a school now, it wouldn't be based on test scores, it would be based on where are the communities that are going to be healthiest, where my child can ex- fully experience belonging. So that's, so that's one bit of research. And then, um, the other is the Grant Study. Um, and the Grant Study was done in Boston starting in 1938, and they took sophomores from Ca- from Harvard, um, and then they, uh, and then they wanted to expand it. So they had two hundred sophomores from Harvard, but then they, um, expanded it to people in Boston more generally, men in Boston more generally. So it was a, it was a male cohort of about seven hundred or eight hundred people. And what they wanted to do is they wanted to see what makes people happy and healthy in their lives. So this is a longitudinal study, one of the most famous longitudinal studies they have. They're still studying the people who are still alive. And John F. Kennedy was one of the people who was, uh, um, was in, originally in the study. So, um, so they've had, they've got eighty, ninety years of research now and, uh, and, and what they say is that, um, if we take a look at what leads to, to health and happiness and, and success, it is not, um, money. It's, it, it is, um, relationships. And, uh, the, one of the, um, people who ran the study for a while, um, um, George Vaillant says, um, you know, uh, twenty million dollars, eighty years of the Grant Study comes down to one five-word conclusion. Um, it is, uh, happiness is love, full stop. And so, so if we want our kids to be happy, if we want our kids to be well-adjusted, we invest in relationships because it, uh, because it's a false promise when we think that, uh, achievement or s- selection to a highly selective school is what's gonna get us there. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I, it makes me think of just, like, the m- micro moves that I've been making as a parent lately to kind of make sense of current events or things like that. Sure. It can be really hard, particularly with young... I mean, my kid's almost four at this point. Yeah. So it's, like, hard to translate that, and I've been trying to be like, "Well, we believe that people are more important than money, and some people are making choices because they think money are more important than people." Speaker 3: Yeah. And Lindsay Lyons: that's, like, one of the ways to grapple with this, this reality and this hard reality. But I love that it's backed up by, by science, is actually, yes, people are more important than money to your happiness and wellbeing. Doug Bolton: Exa- exactly. And, and, you know, I think that one of the things that's really hard about, um, about what's happened in our school systems, um, is it, it's, it's everybody's drinking from the same water at some level. So at, at four years old, it's, it's one challenge. But at 14 years old, it's another challenge, and at, at 24 years old, it's another challenge. Because in so many ways, and I think, um, as a society, as a culture, things, uh, uh, you know, K12 education really began to change, I think, from, um, in 2002 with the passage of No Child Left Behind. And, and, uh, and really what No Child Left Behind, and I think it was well-meaning. It, it's saying we want people to achieve, right? And, uh, um, we, we want everybody to learn, and we want... And the, the goal, the way we decided to measure that was through, um, test scores of, of high-pressure tests. And so, um, teachers began to believe that this is how we define success and growth and learning. Um, kids started to believe that this is how we do it. Um, parents started to believe that this is how we do it. And so now we seek out those schools with, that are the highest achieving schools. And, and if you take a look at, um, the research on high-achieving schools, what you'll find, and this i- this really came out in 2019. The Robert Wood Johnson Na- Foundation named the top environmental conditions harming adolescent wellness, and we knew the first three: trauma, discrimination, poverty. But the fourth is this excessive pressure to excel. And so all of a sudden, people are mortgaging their homes to get their kids into these high-achieving schools, and yet just being enrolled in a high-achieving school puts you at risk three to seven times, um, higher for anxiety, depression, and substance use. And so, and we've got 25 years of research now on, okay, so did it move the dial, all this focus on test scores? All this anxiety we put on people, we must be learning more, right? And the fact is that, that, that the, the, our test scores have stayed flat. And so, and so this idea that, um, that this focus on achievement testing, it, it re- It undermines our mental health, and it doesn't work. And I just wonder, when is it that we're gonna realize, and, and why would we develop a system and stay with a system where every stakeholder is experiencing significant stress, parents, teachers, and students? And, and yet we continue to, to grab onto this and say, "No, we just need to come up with a new secret for how we get these test scores up," instead of saying, "Let's not look at test scores anymore." Um, one last thing. I'm sorry, but I'll, I'll, uh... But, you know, it, it's fascinating to me because, um, you take a look, and 15 years ago, the head of HR at Google said, "We are no longer looking at, at, um, grades in our work." They say-- 'Cause what he said was, um, it's a, when we look at grades, there's no correlation between success. So, so, uh, you know, it's not showing up in business, 'cause what, what happens is what we do is we get people who are highly compliant, and the people who are highly compliant do well in our schools, but that's not what businesses are looking for, especially in this age of, of, uh, of business and, and work, is we want people to come in with new ideas and, and new solutions to problems instead of just saying, "Tell me what to do, and I'll do it." Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, that was a great synthesis of like why it is so important that we do things differently. And so now my questions are gonna change to kind of how do we- Yeah ... do it, like how do we... Do you have suggestions for teachers or families or both to kind of... I, I think you had talked about like, um, positive stress in some of your work, I think I was reading. And it- Yeah ... to increase that positive stress but decrease the toxic stress, to build that resilience up for kids. Doug Bolton: Yeah. Yeah. So there's a, a couple different things that show up for me. The first, um, is a model that I talk about in my book. It's called the Circle of Courage, and it's, um, it's a, um... It's actually born of Native American tradition. Um, um, the research and the work of, uh, they had a, um, a group of three researchers, psychologists, and one of them wa- grew up in the Lakota tradition. And he was able to say, "Oh, the research we're coming up with about what, what is, um, what are the qualities of a community that support resilience are the same things that were part of my tradition." So they call it the Circle of Courage, and what they talk about is that there are four main things that we need to experience from our community in order to be successful. And the first is a sense of belonging, um, that we, we matter. We feel cared for. We feel- Safe within this community. The second is mastery, and, and this is where kind of positive stress can come in, that, that we want kids to experience stress. That the only way for us to learn how to manage stress is to experience stress, and so we wanna be able to have kids experience stress, that that's essential. And I think that's what I, uh, uh, that's one of the things I really like about the anxious generation, is it speaks to how we, uh, w- and our protectiveness, um, um, w- kids don't learn how to cope with stress 'cause we don't let them experience it. Adults swoop in too fast, right? And so, so, but mastery is getting better at something that's meaningful to me, and, and it allows me to then suffer setbacks and stay engaged, right? Um, um, it's a, you know, Csikszentmihalyi's kind of, uh, idea of flow, right? That that's, to me, that's kind of our mastery piece. The next is independence, this idea that I can set a goal and I've got the skills I need to be able to achieve it, and, and people aren't gonna undermine my independence, right? They're gonna support me in, in growing and, and making decisions, and making mistakes that way, and learning from those. And then the last is generosity, and I think about generosity in a couple ways. One is that, um, that I've got gifts to give to the world, right? To recognize what those are, and to then have the opportunity to share those gifts. And so when I think about the circle of courage, what I think about is when a child is struggling, I think, you know, where's the circle broken? And then how can I, you know, if it's, uh, if, if people are saying, "I'm, uh, I'm lonely," um, or if there's bullying or I'm being bullied, that's a belonging issue, and then let's, let's, let's get at belonging. If somebody's saying, "I'm bored," or, "I'm overwhelmed, I can't do it," that's, that's probably a mastery issue. Um, you know, if people are becoming defiant or too, or too deferential, that's probably an, an independence issue. Um, if people are feeling very, uh, uh, they don't have anything to give to the world, there's a, um, that I'm a, um, you know, there's a, I'm, I'm useless or I'm worthless, then that's a, that's a generosity issue. And so, so that's one of the ways, that's one of the frames that I use to, uh, um, to think about things. And then the other frame that I use is, um, this idea that Ross Greene talks about, and Ross... uh, not Ross Greene, um, Bruce Perry, I'm sorry. Um, Bruce Perry in his work, um, you know, he's a, he's an expert in trauma, in childhood neuroscience, and, and what he says is that w- he calls it the three Rs. We need to be emotionally regulated and we need to be connected in relationship to access our full brains. And, and w- and when we struggle to access our best brains, our best selves, it's generally because we're dysregulated and/or we're feeling disconnected. And so, so the work in schools, I think, is to make sure that every class period we're giving time for kids to be emotionally, to emotionally regulate, to quiet that nervous system so that we can learn. And then the other is learning has always been social. And so how can I make sure that, um, that, um, that we're learning together, that it's not sitting down and doing, um, desk work or... That may be part of it, but making sure that a- in every classroom we're investing some time to emotionally regulate and to be connected in relationship. Lindsay Lyons: I love these frameworks, and I can envision many situations where I've had a child in one of my classes or my own child, like, having difficulties with any of these things. And so I imagine- Yeah ... you know, people who are engaging with this episode right now are also having those kids come to mind. Um, any advice you would have, if you wanna, like, take one of them, for instance, and say, like, "Okay, you know, someone is struggling with belonging," or, "Someone is struggling with dysregulation." Like, what's a, what's a move that a family member or a teacher could make once they hear, like, the diagnosis is kind of stage one, figure out where is this coming from, what's the issue, and then what do I do in response to it? Any advice? Doug Bolton: Yeah. You know, the, um, a couple things. The, there's a, a guy named Stuart Shanker, psychologist, um, in Canada, who I just love his work, and what he says is misbehavior is stress behavior. This is a, he wrote a book called Self-Reg that is a great book, and this has been really helpful for me as I, I, when I think about this, is that when... And this is true for me, too. When, um, there are times when, um, I handle a really stressful situation beautifully, right? And then the same situation could happen tomorrow, and I totally lose my cool. And it's not about the situation. It's about the stress that I'm bringing into the situation. And so the same is true for kids. And so the, the first step is not figuring out what can I do to change the behavior. It's I wonder what the stress is. I wonder why this is stressful now. So that's, that's one piece. The other piece that, that comes to mind is, um, the idea of, uh, that Mary Jo Barrett, she's a social worker, um, and a, an amazing thinker and practitioner in the world of, of supporting families who've experienced trauma. And, and she talks about the, the concept of pause and ponder. And so the, you know, the, what she's able to talk about is that, that our lives have a rhythm, that our nervous systems have a rhythm, that we're constantly expanding and contracting. And, and, but in order to expand, in order to fully engage with the world, we need to quiet that nervous system first and give it a, and give it a rest. And that there's, that when we're healthiest is there's this rhythm between, you know, we get a good night's sleep. That's the contraction, and then we expand. We, uh, if we're a student, we do our, uh, our work day. You know, we, we go to school. We, um, do what we need to do, and then we rest at night so that we can then be our best selves. Same thing for us. You know, we'd never say, "You've got an important meeting coming up. You should stay up all night working on the agenda," right? We'd say, "No, you need..." Because we know the idea is... And so, and we wanna make it predictable so that our nervous system knows that this is coming, you know? The, we play hard for a first half, but then we know this, uh, that there's gonna be halftime. We're gonna be able to rest, and then we engage again. And so this idea of, um, she calls these down times pausing and pondering. And what, what happens, I think what's happening, um, people who experience stress, their nervous system never gets a break, right? Because, because their nervous system is constantly activated, um, being hypervigilant about, um, what, what's happened and what could happen in the future. And when we push our kids, when we teach bell to bell, when we, um, when we push our kids and then they, they come home from school, they've gotta do homework, and then they've gotta go to their r- um, their travel team practice, and then they've gotta go to their tutoring, and then, uh, um, boom, boom, boom. And the, they're not getting those breaks. And as parents and as educators, when we're teaching bell to bell, and then we've gotta get our three kids to their three travel teams. And of course, then we gotta get 'em all to therapy 'cause everybody's, uh, nobody's doing well. Um, what I would say is what we need to do in our classrooms, what we need to do in our homes is to build in these predictable times when our nervous systems can quiet, and that will mean that we can then engage better later on. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I love that you're connecting that both to, to students or, um, like the school setting, like with teachers planning bell to bell and not planning for that pause and ponder, as well as for families. And I, I just am reminded of, like this week I think I was saying to my kid, like, "Oh yeah, when I was in high school, you know, I would have after school, like I would have practice or away games where I had to ride a bus for an hour and then play a game- Right and then watch the other team play the game and then go home, and then I would go to sleep." And he's like, "When did you have time to play, like to just relax and play?" Yeah. And I was like, "Wow, that's exactly what you're talking Speaker 3: about." Exactly. Exactly. Lindsay Lyons: The wisdom of small children. Love Speaker 3: it. Yes, exactly. Lindsay Lyons: And so I guess I, I, I think there's so much stuff, and I know people can read your book for, for more details on all of this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's so much that you talk about, and honestly, I've been taking so many notes. I have, like, a laundry list of to read next now books and research. That's great. Doug Bolton: Yes. Lindsay Lyons: But where would you encourage people to start? Like, the first thing they do, they've engaged with the episode, they're really jazzed about some of this stuff. Like, what's the first thing that they could put into action right away? Doug Bolton: Yeah. I think that, um, if we can, I would do the, the pausing, the pausing and pondering. You know, the, the thing that, that I think is most important, you know, that's the, that's the regulate part of the R, right? Regulate and relate. Um, and, and, you know, the... I think that things like family dinners have become endangered species because we're so busy, and people will say, "Well, my kid wants to be a part of three travel teams, so I'm just doing what they wanna do. But in the meantime, um, I'm stressed trying to take care of all these things, figure out, you know, who needs helmets and who needs shin pads and who needs the, um, who forgot the bow for their violin," right? "And, and do I have all the, the work to get to the, from school to get to the tutor?" All of these pieces, nobody's getting the breaks that they need. And so if I was to do anything, uh, you know, what... So, so what I would say to parents, they'd say, "Well, they want to be part of all these three teams." And I'd say, "Well, they probably also want three ice cream sundaes before dinner," right? And would we... A- but we, it's easy to say no to that, right? Um, and yet I think that there, just because, um, kids want it doesn't mean that it's healthy for them or for us. And I think I would say, how do we build in these pauses in our lives, in our family's life, in our kids' lives, before we build anything else in? And then figure out what we can add, but, but make sure that those are sacred. That that would probably be the first thing that I would do, because I think that our nervous systems are, um, are under attack. And what we need to do is we need to protect those so that we can then show up as best we can as, as, um, as parents so that we can, so the kids can show up in a classroom on a good night's rest and not feeling so stressed. I wouldn't worry about things like homework. If it's, if they've got too much homework, you know, kids in Finland, they have, uh, um, 2.7 ni- hours, 2.9 hours of homework a week, and in America, it's 2.7 hours a night. And, and Finland, and, and the kids in Finland are doing a whole lot better on these standardized tests than we are. They, we, we should learn something from this, right? That, that, uh, that this homework assignment isn't the end of the world. This, this, uh, C minus is not the end of the world, um, that we're gonna be okay. What we wanna do is make sure the relationships are solid and that we're getting, that we're getting breaks. And when we do that, we're gonna have healthier kids. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I was just reminded of, uh, when I was a high school teacher, we would do this, like, plan out, a little executive functioning, like plan out your day. Like, when you get home, like, what do you do? And you know, a lot of kids- Yeah ... would work after school, and then they'd have to fit in homework. And I, if I could go back and redo that assignment, I'd be like, "Okay, and plan your pauses. Like, plan your..." Exact- Doug Bolton: yes. Right? That'd Lindsay Lyons: be cool. Let's, Doug Bolton: let's put those in first, Lindsay Lyons: right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I'm very inspired by all this. I'm sure, you seem like a person who is constantly learning. You're constantly referencing, like, research or s- Doug Bolton: I, I, yeah, I, I... That's the thing, is I love, I love the learning part of this, yeah. Lindsay Lyons: I was gonna ask, what are you learning about lately? Like, what's new and exciting on your mind? Doug Bolton: You know, the thing that I, I, I, I mentioned it earlier, is this idea that, um, that w- that when we hit a target, when we shoot for a target, um, uh, the, like, uh, like sales, like this idea of, of, uh, um, high achievement. What happens is we do, uh, when we focus on that, we undermine all the things that can lead to that. And so what I would say is, how can we focus on helping kids be engaged in school instead of helping them get good grades? I would think about, how can we help, um... You know, I think that we've gotten very good. Our focus, um, you know, it used to be, let's focus on how do we develop kids, and now we're focused on how do we develop data. And as a result, we're not getting as good data, and our kids are not developing in the way they need to. And so I would say, how can we shift that? And I'm, I'm, uh, I'm fascinated by all of the examples, um, you know, in, uh, um, in Boeing, they, uh, at Boeing, they used to be, "Let's just make really cool airplanes." And, and as a, and as a result, they got all these profits. And then they had a CEO come in and say, "We're gonna be profit-focused." And all of a sudden, we've been seeing more and more problems with, um, the safety and the design and everything else of these planes, because when we build a plane, um, to make profit, um, it's very different than we build a plane so that it's gonna be the coolest plane we can build and, and answer a certain, uh, uh, a certain problem in the world, right? And so, so I, and so that's the research I've been doing, is just trying to better understand that, 'cause I think that that's happening in our parenting and happening in our, uh, with our kids, uh, in, in our parenting and in our schools. Lindsay Lyons: I love that example. Thank you for making that- Mm-hmm ... that come to life for us. And finally, where can people connect with you or learn more about you? Doug Bolton: Yeah, so, um, I've got a website, um, drdougboulton.com. D-R dougboulton.com, B-O-U-L-T-O-N. And, uh, um, and you can get my book, and my book tells a lot of stories about my work as a therapeutic school principal and psychologist, and, uh- The thing I love about the books is that I feel like the students are telling the stories. And, uh, um, and I tell stories about my own family and my, uh, my, mostly my struggles as a, as a parent, and what I've learned from those as well. So, so I think that my, uh, um, my book would be one way, and I think my website's another way to kinda get a picture of, of, uh, the work that, that, um, that I'm doing, so. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you so much, Dr. Bolton. This was such a humbling, amazing conversation. Thank you for being on the podcast. Doug Bolton: Lindsay, thanks so much. I, I've loved it. I, I feel like I, we could have talked for ages. So, uh, so thank you so much for, um, what a great interview and what a, a, um, I'm just so, um, grateful for your time and your energy and, and what you're bringing to the world. So thank you for letting me be a part of it. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely |
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
July 2026
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