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In this episode, Kurtis Hewson joins host Lindsay to discuss his book, Collaborative Response, and the innovative concept of Collaborative Team Meetings (CTMs). Kurtis emphasizes the importance of these meetings as the missing linchpin in multi-tiered systems of support in schools. 

By implementing CTMs, schools can reduce the number of overall meetings by focusing on proactive and collaborative strategies, allowing educators to better support students. This episode is full of practical advice and strategies to implement in your school context. 


The Big Dream 

Kurtis’ big dream is captured by the idea that every child deserves a team—an educational environment where no teacher works in isolation and no student's success (or lack of success) is solely the responsibility of one person. He aims to transform schools from isolated islands of excellence into collaborative communities that leverage the collective expertise of educators to support every student's needs effectively.

Mindset Shifts Required

Kurtis sees three key mindset shifts for educators who want to work better as a team of support to their students: 

1. Tier the supports, not the kids. Instead of labeling students based on their academic tier, it’s more impactful to tier how we’re supporting them as educators. It puts the responsibility on the educators, not the student. 
2. Focus on the “yellow”: Kurtis is a proponent of color-coding data, so instead of concentrating on students who are struggling the most (the "reds"), prioritize those who are close to meeting expectations (the "yellows"), to prevent them from falling behind. Note that the “reds” get more support in the different layers of team meetings.
3. Get comfortable with discomfort: Educators must become comfortable with being pushed out of their comfort zones in collaborative settings. This involves embracing vulnerability and growth together, allowing for challenging yet supportive conversations.

Action Steps  

Implementing CTMs begins with the understanding that there are four layers of team, as Kurtis lays them out from the least to most intensive: 

1. Collaborative planning: When teachers come together to work on things that will impact all students. 
2. Collaborative team meetings: A regular meeting every 3-5 weeks with other educators that you don’t share common teaching experiences with (e.g., Math, P.E., and English teachers meeting together). Meetings have a focus area, and all participants come ready to discuss and learn from each other. 
3. School support team: The team that meets either bi-weekly or weekly and includes administrators, support coordinators, and those with more specialized roles. The conversation here is about students who need support beyond the classroom. 
4. Case consult: Any meeting about a single child at a time. 

Building these layers of support help schools decrease the number of meetings they have, but increase the quality and impact of them. By using the collaborative team meeting as a linchpin in the process, more will be resolved there without having to bring in so many support team and case consult meetings. 

With those layers in mind, teams can establish a new meeting rhythm with these action steps: 

Step 1: Start by establishing CTMs every three to five weeks, integrating them into existing PLC structures if necessary.

Step 2: Assign roles, set norms, and prepare for meetings with specific data-driven objectives, focusing on yellow students and key issues without sharing students' names.

Step 3: Utilize structured reflection and feedback processes to continuously improve the effectiveness of CTMs and ensure they are solutions-oriented and impactful.

Step 4: Get really granular about the issues you are facing, focusing on the strategies and solutions, not the specific students and their stories that can distract from how you will move forward.

We go into further detail about the CTM in this episode, and Kurtis outlines it all in his new book, Collaborative Response. 

Challenges?

The primary challenge in adopting CTMs is remaining true to the structured processes and timing of the meetings. Many educators may initially resist the level of structure required, preferring more organic discussions. However, the structure is crucial to maximizing the efficiency and effectiveness of these meetings and must be adhered to for long-term success. 

Another challenge is overcoming the desire to discuss students by name and story, which can derail the focus from solution-building to storytelling.

One Step to Get Started 

Download the CTM starter kit from Jigsaw Learning, which provides necessary resources such as meeting templates, role cards, pre-meeting organizers, and facilitator guides. This kit acts as a launching pad for schools to begin their journey towards transformative collaborative practices.

Stay Connected

You can find more from Kurtis Hewson on the Jigsaw Learning website, where you can also get a copy of Kurtis’ book, Collaborative Response. You can also tune into the Building a Culture of Collaboration podcast, or connect with Kurtis on Instagram and LinkedIn.

To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing an Overview of Collaborative Response article and a CTM Starter Kit with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 259 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 7:02 “Every child deserves a team.  And what I mean by that is I think our children deserve the best of what we have to offer collectively. No one should be feeling isolated on an island in a silo and that no child’s lack of success is ever the responsibility of one person.”
• 13:12 “I believe true collaboration is when we get pushed further than we could have on our own. And that push is done in a respectful, professional, but challenging way for us.”
• 24:13 “ I have yet to walk out of one [meeting] where I didn't hear something I've never heard before. Which is crazy. Crazy. But I think it just reinforces how incredible educators are. Every time there's a new website, a resource, an idea, a strategy, a modification, I had never considered that come out.”
• 24:54 “ The collaborative team meeting looks like you're talking about kids, but you're not. The conversation about the student is really just a name, but the conversation about practice and solutions is the main focus.” ​

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:​

TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Curtis Hugin, welcome to the time for teachership podcast.
Kurtis Hewson: Oh, thank you so much, Lindsay. It's an absolute pleasure to be able to join you for this conversation. I've been looking forward to it.
Lindsay Lyons: Me too. Okay. I am so excited. And what's on my mind as we go in is your book Collaborative Response, so I have it here with me, particularly the chapter on collaborative team meetings or CTM as you call them.
And so just wanting to like preview for people that this is an exciting thing we're gonna get into in this episode and that it is. From what I've seen markedly different from anyone else doing stuff in this space. And so it's really exciting. What is on your mind as you kind of enter the conversation?
Anything people should kind of keep in mind as they engage
Kurtis Hewson: with that? Yeah. I, uh, in the book we talk about four layers of team and Lindsay, I've been at this for almost 20 years now from when we first started, some early iterations of this within my own school, and then how this has evolved. Past, we've actually discovered that every school, regardless of size, configuration, location, they need to think about four layers of collaboration with the collaborative team meeting being one of them.
And so I really do want to dig into that, but if we could even take a moment here in the conversation to discuss what are those four layers? Because when we talk about a collaborative response, we talk about having our collaborative structures and processes, these four layers. Data and evidence that feeds into those conversations in time.
And then developing continuums of support that really clearly articulate how will we respond. These three pieces are important, but in the, the visual, the framework, visual, the collaborative structures and processes is twice as large of a piece visually than the others. And that's intentional because it's really important.
And within that, I would say the collaborative team meeting is the engine that. Drives it all.
Lindsay Lyons: Well said and I, now that I am bringing up that visual in my brain, in my memory, you're right, it is bigger and that makes so much sense that it's intentional because that was the part that particularly jumped out to me as people aren't doing this and it's super important.
Kurtis Hewson: Absolutely. So when we talk about the four layers, the great news is, is most schools can identify for sure to. Probably three. And we often say, we're gonna reduce the number of meetings in your school by adding one more, which is the collaborative team meeting. And again, mathematically it makes no sense that we're gonna reduce by adding, but we do.
What we find is if we can get this collaborative team meeting, um, operationalized within the school and having impact, we see less meetings or less students needing the higher levels. Or more intensive meetings. So if you can give me just a few mo moments, I'll describe these four layers really quickly, and then we'll dig into that collaborative team meeting if that works.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, totally.
Kurtis Hewson: Okay, so four layers, and I'm gonna start from the least intensive to the most intensive in time. These align with the tiers within our continuum of supports, but the first layer we call collaborative planning, it's when teachers are coming together to work on things that will impact all students.
So all students across a grade level, across a division, across a subject area, maybe across the entire school. Um, they're usually at this layer. Looking at data, determining what is our response, what do we need to do? And in these conversations, we're not typically looking at individual kids, we're looking at trends.
So any school that's engaged in professional learning communities or PLCs, we'll go, okay, this layer, we got it. This makes sense. Um, and the reason we didn't call it PLCs, uh, even though we were doing a variation of that, but then we had some other structures that still fit in this layer is we've seen schools that are not necessarily following the PLC model, um, with Fidelity, but they have other ways that they're collaboratively planning that are.
As effective for them as well. So again, think of these layers as like categories. So that first layer again, any school that has PLCs goes, check, we got it. The second layer is the collaborative team meeting, and we'll skip it for a second. Third is what we call the school support team. So this is intended to be the, the team that's meeting on a regular basis, usually biweekly or weekly.
Uh, it involves administrators, um, learning, support coordinators, maybe instructional coaches, those that have more specialized roles. And essentially this conversation is about. Who are the students that need support beyond the classroom or in addition to the classroom? When a teacher puts in a referral for support, this is the team that.
Handles, handles this and determines, alright, what do we need to do for the student? Or sometimes it's, what do we need to do to help the teacher? We often say, teachers are not necessarily in involved in this conversation because the conversation might be about the teacher, and I mean that with all due respect.
It might be how do we support, how do we coach, who could we connect this person to, to help them in this particular situation? But sometimes it might be about escalating the student. Um, for some higher levels of support. And our fourth, um, layer is what we call a case consult. Um, but really it's the broadest category of all because it's, anytime we meet with one kid on the agenda, this falls into that layer.
So I worked with a large high school, uh, once here, Lindsay, where they named all their different meetings that they were having. They put it up against these layers and went, oh my goodness. Virtually the, all the things we're doing, and it was a school of about 1200 students. All the things we're doing are falling in that case, consult that one student at a time and they went, oh, this makes perfect sense why we're drowning right now.
We we're, the, the term they used was, it feels like we're playing whack-a-mole, just putting out fires everywhere, but we're trying to do it one kid at a time and what we're trying to do. Is if we can build these layers with fidelity, with the collaborative team meeting, almost being the bridge between the collaborative planning IE PLCs.
And the school support. We're going to see less and less students reach this school support in case consult layer, and the ones that do absolutely need to, but the collaborative team meeting becomes essential. This is why any school that's engaged in multi-tiered systems of support work, MTSS work, they see this and go, oh, there's our missing piece that we have all these other pieces in place, but that collaborative team meeting is the linchpin that's that's missing.
Lindsay Lyons: Hm. That makes so much sense. So much sense. I've seen that in so many schools as well. And so, okay, this, this totally is, is a great framing for the conversation. I wanna zoom out a little bit first before we get into CTM and think about like, what is your kind of, why, what's your big dream? I like to ground this in, Dr.
Patina loves, uh, talk about freedom dreaming. She says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So kind of what's that driver for you in this work?
Kurtis Hewson: For me, the driver is what you see if anyone's watching the video. Uh, right on this shirt is the idea that every child deserves a team. And what I mean by that is I think our children deserve the best of what we have to offer collectively.
And what I mean by that is. No one should be feeling isolated on an island in a silo and that no child success should ever be the responsibility, or, or, sorry, lack of success maybe is ever the responsibility of one person. My dream is that we can shift this profession from one that is, I, I used to refer to it in my own school as isolated islands of excellence.
Great people doing great things in their room, but collectively. We had centuries of teaching experience available to us. How could we leverage that in a really intentional way that's gonna help each and every kid?
Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love that. I wrote down isolated Islands of excellence. I think that's totally what happens in most places.
And you know, it's actually inspiring me. I've been thinking about families a lot and family school partnership and, and teammates together. Also families, right? There's so much. If we could just do like this kind of wraparound, like hug in support of, of kids, it's like we're gonna build skills together everywhere we are, whether it's in or out of school.
It's pretty cool.
Kurtis Hewson: Uh, Lindsay, I can tell you too that I hear it over and over and over again of schools that I'll come in and work with or districts where the schools will say, we thought we were collaborative until we started this work. And then we've taken it to a whole nother level. And I usually have schools that when they say.
You know, we, we collaborate a fair bit. We have good team structures. I go, oh my goodness, then you're gonna love this because it's going to pour gasoline on a fire that's already lit it. It's just gonna take it to a different level that, um, I think our kids deserve.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I, I love too that you've covered, I, in all the things you've said so far, you've already kind of covered some, some mindset shifts.
Yeah. And I, I wonder, I usually ask that question at this point. Is there anyone you wanna like, double down on or say that we haven't said yet in terms of the leaders and educators who are wanting to do really meaningful collaborative work, but maybe they even thought they were Right? And then what's the shift in terms of like, what's different with this approach?
Is there some sort of thinking that needs to change?
Kurtis Hewson: Yeah, there's, there's. There's three that I think are pretty critical. The first, and it's when we put all those three pieces together of collaborative structures and processes, data and evidence and continuum of supports, when we put them all together, it's about shifting our mindset so that we stop tiering kids and we tier the supports.
To me, that's a critical mindset, and it might sound like a simple shift in language, but it's massive when we tear the kids. It's too easy to say, well, that's a tier three kid, not my responsibility. When we tier the supports, it places all the attention back on us. What are we as the adults doing to support and, and, um, it becomes a much more reflective exercise.
One that's more hopeful, I think, and one that really is about, okay, well let's keep examining what could we do? And it builds high, high levels of collective efficacy in organizations. When it's, alright, that didn't work. What else could we try? What's our next step? Uh, so that's one. The second, and this is becomes critical with the use of data and evidence, I, uh, work with schools to start color coding their data.
And then we emphasize that, especially in the collaborative team meeting, we focus on the yellow. And what I mean by that is if we used a simple. Um, color coding where red means who are the students, not yet meeting expectations based on whatever data set we were utilizing. Yellow is the students who are approaching expectations.
They're close. They're not quite there yet, but they're closer than the reds. And then the green are those that are meeting expectations. And then I also have a fourth color we use of blue of exceeding expectations because in time we want a conversation about those, um, students as well. But in the collaborative team meeting, we make sure that we are not focusing on our reds.
And what I mean by that is, and we're not saying that those children don't deserve a conversation, they absolutely do. But this is why the layers of team become important because we trust that their needs are being met in our more intensive layers of team. In the collaborative team meeting, let's focus on the kids who are close and what could we do that would lift them to that next level so that we often say we're providing support for your most at risk students by not focusing on them.
In the collaborative team meeting, which again, huge mindset shift. If I was to come into a room and say, Lindsay, who would you like to talk about today? Your mind instantly goes to the kid that's furthest away from where you'd like them to be. Probably the one that's consuming 95% of your attention and energy.
And what we're trying to do is let's shift the focus off of that student because there's already conversations happening in our other layers of team. Let's focus on the ones that are, we sometimes hear schools call these our bubble kids or the, I saw a high school where they said, these are our fifties, the kids who are just passing, but by the skin of our teeth.
And what could we do, um, to help them? And the mindset shift here is the, uh, by being proactive, the kid who is yellow based on our data right now, we save them before they potentially hit that red, um, months or years in advance. And then I think the third mindset shift is being comfortable. With being uncomfortable.
And what I mean by that is when we're in really powerful collaborative conversations like the CTM, the collaborative team meeting that we'll discuss here in a bit, we want to get to a place where people are okay being slightly uncomfortable. And what I mean by that is we set up mechanisms to build high, high levels of trust and vulnerability that.
I'm always gonna have a small sense of discomfort in the conversations because people are gonna push me on my thinking, they're gonna ask me questions about my practice. And, um, what we find is, um, it takes time to be able to get there, but it is a powerful conversation. And I believe true collaboration is when we get pushed.
Further than we could have on our own. And that push is done in a respectful, professional, but challenging way for us. So it, it takes time. But I, I love going into collaborative team meetings knowing that everyone's gonna walk away just a little bit stronger than when they went in.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. This has me thinking about so many things.
I also think about, you know, student led discourse in, in classrooms just from the teacher hat. Yeah. And it's like, it's the same, it's the same thing with adults and with students, right? Like we enter a conversation kind of knowing that our ideas are gonna get better as we engage with others and get feedback on our ideas like.
It's that trust building, but it's also the structures that you have in place that enable it to come forth. Yes. Which is why I'm really excited to talk about the CTM structures you have. Um, there's so much, so I mean, I, I just wanna like read through what I got outta the chapter and maybe you could like elaborate or say more.
Kurtis Hewson: You got it, Lindsay.
Lindsay Lyons: Okay. So first I, I love that there's some pre-meeting work, like there's some, something you have to do first. I love that you grounded norms or agreements. I love that there's some positive like success share kind of stuff and I love that there's a reflection after on the process, which I think too often is skipped in both classes and adult meetings.
And then I like starred multiple times that page that has your key issues flow chart because there's so much in that one graphic. I mean that we, there's so much so any or all of those things. Do you wanna like expand upon those words?
Kurtis Hewson: Let's break this down. Okay, so the collaborative team meeting, we want it essentially every three to five weeks within the school.
And where we found the most power is if you have PLCs already established. Awesome. Let's say they're meeting every week. Uh, they were in my school. What we would do is every fourth week, we'd transfer that into a collaborative team meeting. Now I see the greatest power start to happen in schools where you collaboratively plan, again, think PLC.
With those, you share a common teaching experience with either at the same grade level, same subject area. Maybe it's multi graded depending on the size of your school, but we, collaborative team meet. With people we don't share. So what this does in a school is creates two layers of collaboration where I, my, for instance, my department team, if I'm at a high school, uh, I'm working consistently with my science department colleagues, but then when I get into a collaborative team meeting, there's a good chance that I'm going to have myself a mathematics.
Um, teacher, a, uh, English language learner teacher, a immersion teacher, potentially someone that's teaching phys ed. The, the possibilities become endless, uh, for us. So what we do then is the collaborative team meeting is coming up, and we know that it is, let's say, focused on literacy. Let's say the school has, we were really trying to impact literacy achievement within our school.
So the pre-work that you talked about means that every teacher comes ready. For this conversation. And we usually say, when you start, start simple, come ready with a celebration and come ready with a student. And a key issue, and I'll describe that key issue here in a little bit, and it's the game changer, uh, for us now in time, we start to say, come ready with a student to celebrate based on your data.
And a student to discuss that is yellow based on our data and a key issue that you noted. But we don't have that right away, uh, unless, uh, again, I've worked with some schools who have really strong data analysis processes where this makes total sense to them. Okay. So we come in and like you said, we start with norms.
Here's our norms that we set out. And I often now don't read every norm. We pick one that we're gonna practice. So let's say today we're gonna focus on our norm of being solutions oriented. And Lindsay, I'd love for you to just, um. Put down a, a tally of every time you hear the words what if, because at the end we're gonna talk about how many times did that happen?
When we're using the phrase, what if we're activating some solutions oriented thinking? We find a way to practice that norm. And then, like you said. At the end, just have a quick, how did we do? What did that look like? And this may seem minuscule. In fact, I was a person who did not believe norms were critical for teams.
I thought in our school, people get along great. We don't need norms. And we didn't, until we got into challenging conversations. And then we had to say out loud, we agree, everyone's opinion matters. We agree, we'll arrive on time and prepared. And then we had conversations about what does on time and prepared look like?
Do we all have a common understanding? So we, we do that norm thing and in time it just becomes. Totally natural for us. And then we start with celebrations. And here's the key, Lindsay. When I say, Lindsay, who would you like to celebrate? And you say, I've got, uh, I don't want to celebrate all the students in my class.
They've done such, uh, incredible work. Adjusting to our new flex block that we've established years ago, I would've said, that's awesome. Let's write it down. Yay. Great celebration. Anyone else have one? But now we go deeper. I would say Lindsay. Who's a student that really stands out for you? One, that's that you're surprising with the success in the flex block, what this is doing is activating a deeper level of reflection that is gonna help the next question.
So when you say, you know, I guess Sharif, Sharif is really surprised me. I thought the kid would not know how to utilize that time effectively for himself, but he's really utilizing it now to, uh. To impact what, what it is that he needs to do. Now the next question is the critical one where someone in the room is going to say, that's great.
What do you think you did that led to that success? So this is activating some, some deeper reflection for us. It's identifying that these things are, and when you say, I don't know, it must be a miracle, I'm going to jump in and say, okay, what do you think you did that led to that miracle? Um, and, and, and this is helping us to understand that what we're doing is having impact.
And when you say, uh, it's nothing big, I've got a little a checklist that he completes to help him figure out where to go during flex block. Someone in the room is going to go Genius. Can I see a copy of that checklist? Um, we're sharing strategies right in that celebrations part. So that part's really, really important.
Make sense? And then, and then we're gonna get to the key issue here in a moment.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, this is, I just wanna say like, this is so critical, that question of what did you do and how it leads to just natural sharing as opposed to, I'm gonna force people to share. I'm like, it's so beautiful. And I love the the focus on one student, because I think about the emotional connection too.
Yes. You're now bringing in addition to that specificity of the context, like which leads into the key issue, I'm sure. So I'll stop talking and let you talk about it.
Kurtis Hewson: I'm just, well, and really. You're going to see, and you're the people listening or viewing this podcast are going to understand that we're actualizing universal design for learning in these conversations because when you were reflecting on Sharif and your uses checklist, that actually might be something you're using with everyone.
It's really helped him, the idea of intended for one, good for all. And then this really impacts in the, in the, um, key issue process. Okay, so let's go here. I'm going to say, Lindsay. Okay, let's get started. I know you've brought a student. Please don't say their name. What is the key issue? 30 seconds or less.
And when people first start, it's hard to get. Succinct on the key issue that they're experiencing. Sometimes we're used to telling stories, and I think there's a place for stories, but not in the collaborative team meeting, potentially in that school support or that case consult, where the story of the student really, really matters.
But in the collaborative team meeting, it actually is counterintuitive for the process because we want you to get succinct on what's. Add challenge that you're seeing for this student. So the key issue, and let's say that we're having a literacy focused conversation and you say, I've got a student in mind and my key issue is inferencing.
Okay. Now we might ask a few questions of what do you mean when you say inferencing so that everybody understands around the table what it is you're talking about. And then you say, well, the student just, they can read all the words, fine, but they can't. Envision the the meaning that's happening. They can't make the mental picture of what that is creating.
So we'd say, all right, so inferencing, uh, creating mental pictures. Have we got it? And you say, yeah. Then we go, okay, great. Everyone else identify, ask student where you're also seeing that. Write down their name. Don't say 'em out loud. And then we're going to start having a conversation on what could we do to impact students who cannot, who can read, but can't make the mental pictures, uh, for it.
And we just start throwing out ideas. Now, why it's so critical that we have everybody else think of a student put in mind is because we don't want this to be a conversation where everyone turns to Lindsay and says, Hey, Lindsay, you could, you could, you could as a facilitator, I'm gonna go, whoa, these are we.
These are just possibilities that we could do. And do you notice what happens when we don't say the name? It helps us focus on the solutions oriented instead of a second. You say the name Curtis. People in the room are gonna go, oh, I know Curtis. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I taught his sister, I taught his mother ev.
It goes off on these tangents and we're just trying to leverage the student to have a conversation about practice. Okay, so now we start sharing out ideas and in time we start. Referring to our continuum of supports for ideas and suggestions that we've co-created over time. We won't get into that here today, but it becomes a solid resource and we just generate ideas.
Now, the beauty of this is, um, no idea is a bad idea at this point, but people start riffing off each other's things so that when you say, I try this in my room, I go, I do something similar, but what if. We did this and what if we tried this? And then what we want to come back is after we've generated that possibility.
And I have to tell you, I'm almost in my 30th year in education, I've been in hundreds of these collaborative team meetings, either as an observer or as a facilitator to model. I have yet to walk out of one where I didn't hear something I've never heard before, which is crazy. Crazy. But it, I think it just, um, reinforces how incredible educators are.
Um, every time there's a new website, a resource, an idea, a strategy, a modification, I had never considered that come out. And then what we do is, um, from that we say, alright, Lindsay, who's the student? Just the name. What's one thing that you're willing to try and you say, I really like Angela's idea. I think I'm gonna try that.
And we say, okay, by what date will you put that down? And then I go to the next person and say, alright, did you have a student in mind? Just the name and what's one thing you want to try? So what we're doing is building everybody's capacity over and over and over again. And I often say the collaborative team meeting looks like you're talking about kids.
But you're not, the conversation about the student is really just a name. The conversation about practice and solutions is the main focus. And so we go through that. Um, if there were five teachers in the room, we go to each of the five and say, did you have a student in mind? And what's one thing to try?
And again, when a teacher said, well, all of my kids struggle with that, we still say, just pick one that you wanna focus on for this strategy. Then we go and say, alright, let's start our next key issue conversation. Who do you have? Don't say the name. What's a key issue you're experiencing? What this does is when we see schools first start, people reach for low hanging fruit.
We hear things like, well, I was planning to try this anyway, so just put me down for that. But when we start to build up that trust and vulnerability, we start to hear things like, I love Lindsay's idea, but I'm not quite sure how to do that. And that's where me, uh, myself as a leader are in there to say, oh, could I cover your class for 20 minutes tomorrow so that you can go and connect with Lindsey around this?
Or do you need to see what this looks like? We, we refer to this as distributive coaching, and what it means is that everyone in the room is an expert. Everybody's also a learner, and you do not have to hold the title of instructional coach to teach somebody else something that you know how to do. That idea of distributive coaching is we could all learn something from other people, and this is where the real power happens outside of these meetings, we start to build up that capacity building that.
Idea generation, that sharing, and then all of a sudden when I struggle with someone with a student, I don't wait for a meeting. I run down the hall to talk to Lindsay because I know you have a toolbox that's equipped for this type of thing. We, I, I'm, I'm always fascinated that sometimes we can teach across the hallway.
Decades with another person and not necessarily know their instructional strategies, processes, practices. This is a way to access it, and what we see through this is everyone's capacity just keeps growing and growing and growing. Everyone's leaves these collaborative team meetings with two or three things they hadn't considered before, or we often see people start to stretch.
Um, their own practice to start to challenge their own thinking. And this is where that power starts to happen, where all of a sudden, a year, two years, three years from now, I get that student, um, that I would've been referring to the special ed or school support team or whatever language you're using in your school.
But now I have the toolbox to help support, and this again, is how we reduce the number of meetings by adding one more long term. It's the, the collaborative team meeting is powerful, really powerful.
Lindsay Lyons: And I love that you are accomplishing all the things that I think instructional coaches, that team meeting facilitators want, but it's just the intentionality of the structure and the culture you build through those conversations and that structure.
Kurtis Hewson: Oh, Lindsay instructional coaches love this because when somebody says, I'm gonna try this, they now have an instant access to say, would you like some help? Could I help you with that? Would you like me to model that for you? We saw that where with teachers who were. Uh, hesitant and I would even say a little bit fearful to have another person come into their room to watch or to help whatnot.
Where now it's not that they're coming in because you're lacking in some area as a teacher, they're coming in because you said you're gonna try something for this kid, and can I help you? For that, that student, it, it, it just diverts the attention ever so slightly. And for me as a leader, I would be listening for that.
Where it might be the, how could, you know, knowing what I know about Marcel and you said you're gonna try this. I also think Lindsay's idea would be really impactful that for that student, can we help you do that? And it was a way where I could start pushing people's. Instructional practices, but in a really supportive and, um, non-judgmental, uh, way.
Lindsay Lyons: That is so cool. I mean, there's just, there's so much potential here. I mean, there, there's actualized things that'll come out of this in the work you've done, which is so cool. I, I'm wondering, is there a particular challenge that you've noticed when people are trying to shift to this kind of way of collaborating and, and being in these types of meetings?
What's like the biggest challenge you've seen, or one challenge you've seen, and how did, how have you helped people overcome it?
Kurtis Hewson: Yeah, so the, uh, the biggest challenge is remaining true to the structures and processes of it. So a school where they go, well, we just collaborate really well naturally. We, we just let, let it flow, we let our meetings flow.
Um, I will say that's wonderful. I promise. If you put in these structures that are going to feel a little mechanical, a little awkward when you first begin. I promise they will take you to another level. So when I say structures or processes, it's things like we have norms established and we're going to review them at the start.
We have roles in this meeting where I'm the facilitator, Lindsay is the recorder, Douglas is the timekeeper. And we might even have, I've seen lots of schools that introduce the role of the interrupter, and it's that person's job too. Knock on the table. If anyone goes off into story and they're not doing it to be a jerk, it's just we've agreed that's how we stay focused.
Um, and so being able to say, alright, we're going to move to celebrations. Uh, Douglas, can you set a, uh, eight minute timer for this and let us know when we're down to one minute. Lindsay, let's start with you. What's a celebration that you've seen? 30 seconds or less, and then we're gonna dig into what we did.
Sometimes people are a little bit afraid of that type of structure of having things timed of all of the, the things I, I often have people, when they watch a video of me facilitating one, I get the, you're kind of like a drill sergeant within that, and Yes, I am, because. We only have 40 minutes. We want to maximize that 40 minutes, and I hear it repeatedly of people that were hesitant to put the structures in that.
Once they do and then people get comfortable. They love it and they often start translating it into other meeting places. All of a sudden, staff meetings have timers and clear agendas and note documents. Um, we go to meet with a parent and we start off with norms of, we all agree we're here for the best interest of your child, and that we'll do whatever it takes for their success.
Saying some of those things out loud become really powerful. That, that's what I see as the biggest challenge is people feeling a bit uncomfortable with structure, but the structure is critical for the success.
Lindsay Lyons: I That makes so much sense. I could totally imagine that that to be a challenge and that the structure just like kind of believe it and, and it'll happen.
It seems like a good approach there.
Kurtis Hewson: Yeah. Well, and the other challenge I see too is we're so accustomed, and this is the huge mindset shift that comes. We're so accustomed to coming into a meeting and if someone says, who's a student you like, and this is why we often say, don't say the name. Out loud.
We're so used to saying, here's everything I know about this student. Everything I've tried, all the things that have worked. And when people start to say, maybe we could do this, maybe we could do this, then me as a teacher go, oh, I've tried that already. No, that wouldn't work. Let me tell you more about what, what's happened.
Um, this shifts that on its ear and it's really hard sometimes to focus on the key issue because I've got Daniel in my head and I. I want to talk about Daniel, but this is where we say, okay, if you need to have a conversation with Daniel, awesome. It doesn't happen here. That sounds like a case consult layer meeting.
Who do we need around the table? I love that, and that's gonna get scheduled somewhere else. This is what, again, why the layers are so, so important for us.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that. Oh my gosh. So there's so much richness in here. People should obviously grab the book and read all the details, but what is maybe one thing you would encourage listeners or audience members to do once they've just ended the episode?
They're walking into school or like walking into their office, preparing for the upcoming school year? Like what's one thing that could get them on the path?
Kurtis Hewson: We have what we call our CTM starter kit, and I'm going to give, uh, the link to it for you. So go check the show notes out, um, or go to jigsaw learning.ca/free and you'll find it, it's one of the free resources in it.
It has a adapted story of a collaborative team meeting so that you can see it, it has links to video of it, it has, here's your meeting template, um, uh, notes document. Here's your roll cards. Here's your pre-meeting organizer, all the things that you might need. There's even a facilitator's one pager that says, here's the process, here's questions you could be asking.
Um, all of that, it's all built together. And if anyone's walking away from this episode going, I'm really excited about this. My piece of advice is just start, just start the, the meetings will feel awkward. Your first one will not go. Um, as well as you would imagine it, it will. Um, I think we often hear schools say it turned out better than we thought it was going to, but it takes time, it takes practice, but it is well worth the investment because it transforms the way we, we think about the work we do and the way that we support, the way that we collaboratively respond to the needs of our students.
And we also, uh, Lindsay, we have, uh, at this point in the recording, I know that this will get released later, so hopefully the book will already be out. But we are just finishing a book all about the collaborative team meeting. Just that one structure, it's coming out mid May is what we're aiming for. So, um, check that out.
Go to jigsaw learning.ca. It'll be on the website. Love to, uh, be able to share. We've seen schools that have. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years, um, in, uh, from engaging in this work that their collaborative team meeting is just so rich and so layered. Uh, when you look at it, you go, this is insanely complex how this is set up.
And it never looked like that to start, but it got there over time.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. You beat me to that question. That's awesome. And, and finally, I know you mentioned your website anywhere else that people can connect with, with you as a, as a human or, um, other places to go in terms of your work.
Kurtis Hewson: I would say the easiest is that website, jigsaw learning.ca.
Um, I'm Canadian. I live in, uh, Alberta, Canada, so that's the.ca part of this. Um, if you want to check out on any of the socials, uh, search for Jigsaw Learning, or, I'm in most socials as Houston K two seven. To, uh, connect with me on Instagram or Facebook, LinkedIn. Um, yeah, would love to have a conversation and, um, to help any of the schools that are trying to implement this, this work that we see have such incredible impact, not just for kids, but for the adult supporting the kids.
Lindsay Lyons: Great point to end on. Chris, thank you so much. This has been such a rich conversation.
Kurtis Hewson: Uh, thank you Lindsay. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely.

​

Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• YouTube
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

In this episode, we talk with Adam Fletcher about student voice. Adam is an author, speaker, and consultant specializing in the area of meaningful student engagement and, in our conversation, he shares how we’re at a key, transformational time in education where students can become the main drivers of change. 

Adam advocates for the democratization of learning and highlights the need for student-adult partnerships, facing adultism, and fostering personal engagement in schools to enable students to become empowered learners and community members.

The Big Dream 

Adam’s big dream is a future where education is grounded in the meaningful involvement of students, defining it as a framework to implement justice in a fair and transformative way for the benefit of all. This vision includes students being active participants in decision-making processes, such as curriculum development and budgeting, transforming their roles from passive learners to engaged leaders who shape their educational experiences.

Mindset Shifts Required

To achieve meaningful student involvement, Adam identifies three key mindset shifts needed. First, the focus must move beyond mere student voice to fostering equitable student-adult partnerships. Next, it involves recognizing and addressing adultism, which is the bias towards adults that limits student empowerment. Finally, Adam stresses that educators should embrace personal engagement, encouraging students to consciously choose to engage with their education in ways that matter to them.

Action Steps  

For educators who want to be guided by student voice, Adam recommends the following action steps that address the mindset shifts he’s identified as necessary:

Step 1: Foster Student-Adult Partnerships. 
Encourage collaboration between students and adults where power and abilities are shared equitably. To make this possible, educators need to use the structures available to them. Adam explains the “three-legged stool” that allows students to be meaningfully involved: 

• Structure: This includes curriculums, committees, meetings, and formalized structures of the school.
• Culture: This is the shared feeling and sentiment in a school, something that students can make concrete changes and impact to. 
• Attitudes: This is the idea that we all share a learning community and while attitudes are individual, it contributes to the greater collective experience. 

These three domains allow educators to begin thinking about where they need to prioritize student voice and create those adult-student partnerships. 

Step 2: Recognize and Face Adultism. 
Educators must acknowledge the impact of adultism in educational settings and work towards dismantling it. While adultism—the bias towards adults—is appropriate in some scenarios, like an emergency situation, there are other times where students are capable of making decisions, but they’re simply not brought in by adults; they’re not given a voice. Recognizing adultism lets you then fight against it and empower students in the decision making process. 

Step 3: Promote Personal Engagement. 
Create learning environments where students are motivated to engage personally, driven by genuine interest and personal relevance. For a long time, student engagement is almost a proxy for compliance—when the student does what an educator wants, they’re engaged. But personal engagement moves beyond this and allows the student to be part of it again and again. 

Challenges?

One of the significant challenges in implementing meaningful student involvement is overcoming the competitive mindset prevalent in educational systems. Competition, rather than collaboration, often dominates the priorities of educational institutions, and can hinder progress towards democratizing learning environments.

One Step to Get Started 

The journey toward meaningful student involvement begins with educating yourself. Adam acknowledges that this is not innate or natural—we all have to learn about this, whether you’re a teacher, leader, parent, or student. The first step is to learn about meaningful student involvement, which can then lead to practical applications, gradually integrating the concepts into everyday educational practices for meaningful change.

Stay Connected

You can learn more about Adam Fletcher’s work on his website, which has a huge number of free resources for educators to check out. You can also connect with him on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing a framework for meaningful student involvement with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 258 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 1:44 “ Dr. King talked about the. Woven blanket of interdependence that we're all part of, and that's what meaningful student involvement is about.”
• 3:27 “ It's not a synonym for student leadership. It's not a synonym for student engagement. All of these are different aspects. Student voice is any expression of any learner, anywhere, at any time, for any reason as it relates to education and learning in schools.”
• 24:23 “There is a lot of competition in education.  There are competing values, there are competing agendas, there are competing outcomes, and ultimately there are competing budgets and funding sources that are asking us to do a lot of different things. And one of the most detrimental things that I've seen to this entire process is the assumption that people are going to collaborate.”
• 26:42 “ Because the fact of the matter is all this AI is driven by corporate interests. It's all driven by political agendas. And we know this … So if we pretend like it's going to come into schools without that agenda, we are not just fooling ourselves, we're fooling learners. And what meaningful student involvement can do is capacitate learners and capacitate teachers and capacitate school leaders and give them the ability to discern and see through that mythology, but also to counter it with the unique ability of humans to guide our own learning, teaching, and leadership.”

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:​

TRANSCRIPT
​
Lindsay Lyons: Leah Ellis, welcome to the time for Teachership podcast.
Leah Ellis: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for being here. I am just really excited. We are airing this episode as part of a series on youth voice and leadership, and so this fits perfectly in there. Um, one of the questions I've been playing with to start is just kind of like what people want, uh, what you want people to keep in mind as we jump into our conversation.
And so I'll just share like what's on my mind is that you reached out and were like, Hey, we do this cool thing where. Like kids actually start real businesses and take real action in the community. And I was hooked. So te tell us more. What else should we keep in mind?
Leah Ellis: Okay. So I'll tell you my biggest, most scandalous controversial topic, subject, one sentence ever.
Uh, children are not the future. So the thing I wa I, yeah, I know it, it gets every teacher right in the heart. 'cause we're like, wait a second, they're our babies. Yes, yes they are. They're our babies. But they're not the future because they are students of leadership right now and they're amazing human beings right now.
And the more we say children are the future, the more we defer into not allowing them to leave now. And the more we program them. To believe that they can't yet, but then we never tell them when yet is.
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. I love that so much. As a secondary school teacher, I always was frustrated when we were like, what do you want to be?
It's like, what are you, what can you do today? Like.
Leah Ellis: Yeah, exactly. That's, um, I have this challenge and I tell people all the time, 'cause you know, I do the podcasts and people are like, what is the one thing you wanna leave us with? And I'm like, okay, well the one thing I wanna leave you with is go find a child and ask them what thing happens in their daily life that they're annoyed with and how they would fix it.
Because they probably have already thought about it and they just didn't feel comfortable telling you. So when you open the door, they will tell you what's wrong and how to fix it.
Lindsay Lyons: I love it. We got it right at the start of the episode, so great ideas
Leah Ellis: jump in.
Lindsay Lyons: So one of the things that I like to ask everyone on the show is kind of stepping way back in kind of the big dream that you hold for education, learning, youth voice.
Feel free to answer in whatever way. Um, but really inspired by Dr. Patina love talking about freedom dreaming, and she says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So what is with that in mind, what is that big dream you hold?
Leah Ellis: Okay. So again, I don't believe children are the future because I think they're leaders now, but they are also the leaders of the future.
And so for me, I think my big audacious, hairy dream is that we have a generation of children who become adults, secure in themselves, their ability to lead their communities and their ability to solve problems throughout society. So we have now. A generation of mostly apathetic, frustrated, angry people who feel like we have no power, and if we can teach all these kids what their power is when they're young, then when they reach adulthood, they are advocates for other people.
They're advocates for their communities. They're advocates for solving problems, and they don't feel like they need to stay quiet.
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. And I think one of the mindset shifts you've been consistently talking about since we we started recording is that idea that it's like not the future, it's now. So I think that's a big one that people should take away from this episode.
Are there any other mindset shifts around like, you know, I think about youth adult partnership a lot and youth voice a lot. And there is something that has to happen in the brain of an adult, I think, to unlearn some things before we can truly get into this. So what would you, what advice would you give us?
Leah Ellis: So I'm actually, instead of just giving you blatant advice, um, I'm a teacher, which means I teach through story. So I'm going to tell you the story and then let you kind of pick through some of the things that I had to unlearn, and then we can discuss what that felt like and what it was like. So I had an in-home daycare and I taught engineering curriculum to 3-year-old girls.
It was fabulous. But then we discovered. A in a house that I had owned for 18 months, we discovered 10 years of black mold in the walls. So we had to move into a hotel, we had to tear apart. Most of the ground floor of our house was awful and that meant I had to shut down my daycare. 'cause you can't run an in daycare, um, in a hotel.
That's just not feasible. And when we went back, we were set to reopen our daycare on March 17th, 2020. Which unfortunately was the exact day that our county issued the stay at home order for COVID, and we did not get to reopen, and my husband and I decided to pivot and launch a financial coaching company, but he was deployed.
So I was home alone with an 18 month old and a 4-year-old, and that meant I had to figure out how to do my training while also watching my kids. So I put a lot of business training videos on our living room tv. I watched them while the kids played and I'd watched them while I was washing dishes and whatever I was doing, they were just the background noise of our house at that time.
So my 4-year-old looked at me and said, I wanna start a business too. And of course, being a mother, I said, no way. You're four. You can't start a business. And being a 4-year-old child, the number one word in her vocabulary at the time was why. I didn't like have a good answer. Like I tried to come up with a logical, justifiable reason for why she couldn't start a business, but there wasn't one outside of year four, and nobody's done it before, but especially at that time, we were all doing things that nobody had ever done before.
So what was one more new thing? So I made her tell me what she was gonna sell. We used a Facebook group to vote on her name. She did her launch and she created her business in May of 2020 at four and a half years old. And that then became her doing an art show as a featured artist, her doing her first children's business fair as a child entrepreneur at six years old, and me realizing.
Like the only thing that was holding our children back is the adults. And then when we started the Society of Child Entrepreneurs and seeing that, it wasn't just in my household, but it is a societal thing where we expect 18 year olds to act like adults, but we expect 17 year olds to behave like children.
And if we really want our 18 year olds to act like adults, we have to start letting our seven and eight year olds know what an adult does.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Love that. So sorry, continue if
Leah Ellis: you want. No, no. So it was, it's a long story, but that's kind of where we came from was what do we want the future to look like and how early do we need to start to get it there?
And the answer is, elementary school, we need to start an elementary school teaching them these problem solving these life skills so that they're second nature when they reach 25 years old.
Lindsay Lyons: For sure. And I love, I mean, as the parent of an almost 4-year-old, I'm like loving this story of like, yeah, why, why not?
Like why? Tell me why. Love it. Um, also just love your. Adaptability in that moment. Right. I think a lot of adults, sometimes it's like we are kind of hit with this like moment of wait. Yeah, why not? Or wait, wow, this is possible. And you went there. And I think that's such an inspiration to people who also are going to confront those moments where it's like, oh, I can shift and, and then we all shift together.
Leah Ellis: Right? Well, and it's so easy to just be like, because I said so, but then we're like, well, but. I mean, nothing in that, nothing at life was normal at that point. So it was, well, what's one more abnormal thing to throw into the ring? And now she's the junior executive director of our organization at 10 years old.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. That is so awesome. I am thoughtful of a couple things here. Two groups of audiences and, and sometimes over overlapping. So we have mostly our audience of people who are in education, right? They have a formal role in education, their teachers, um, maybe leaders. Instructional coaches, but we also have people who, and maybe are also in education, but are family members and thinking about like youth voice at home.
And so I'm, I'm seeing and, and, and noticing in your story that really, this can be both, right? This can be what we do at home and it's also likely in partnership with what we're doing at school. So any advice you have for either or both. Kind of hats the family hat or the teacher educator hat.
Leah Ellis: So both one.
Um, for teachers and educators, I've made this super easy for you. At the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, we've actually developed a 36 weeks school curriculum that's two hours a week, so you can literally buy our curriculum and stick it in an afterschool program and teach this in your building. Plug and play.
The worksheets are already there and everything, so you just make your copies and read from the lesson plans, so it makes life super easy for you. But for families, because we all know the best way for anything to stick is to do it at home and in school we created an organization called the Sochi Circle, and it's an online platform.
And every week I post a family challenge and it's like, here's a short story. Here's why it matters. Here's the challenge for your family to stabilize financial literacy, leadership, or problem solving for your kiddo at home. And when you can take that program at school and these challenges at home, then it becomes a part of the culture and not just like this one hobby.
Lindsay Lyons: That's super cool. I think that's exactly right because I, I don't think that anything that is true student voice or youth voice can just be this one siloed activity. It has to be part of the culture and the way we do things and the way we treat kids and interact with them. Right. So I love that. Um, are there moments or kind of wins or projects or businesses started that you want to highlight?
And I mean, specifically I just looked on your website. Today and I was like, oh, there's this update since I've been on there and it's talking about like a 10-year-old trying to get a crosswalk in their community, like standing in front, right? Like so there's just. So many wins, I'm sure. Do you wanna share some with us?
Leah Ellis: So the 10-year-old on the blog post, that's my oldest daughter. Uh, so she's the one who started all of this and yeah, she walked into my office and she was like, we need a crosswalk. I'm going to city council. And she stood on a chair, told the mayor, paint a si, a crosswalk right here. Then sent an email to the city administrators that was like, okay, now that we've discussed it, what are your next steps and what do I need to do to make sure it continues on?
So she has a meeting on Monday with the Main Street Planning Committee to work on getting her crosswalk put in. She is amazing, and I could tell like 500 stories just about melody because she inspires me daily, but she's not the only kid in the Society of Child entrepreneurs and she's not the only one doing amazing things.
So we have another kiddo. You mentioned that you're in secondary education, so you know very well that reading for pleasure drops off statistically at a massive level after fourth grade. So by the time they get to middle and high school, nobody's reading for fun anymore, and the ones who are labeled nerds and all that stuff.
I have a, one of our members, he's a 14-year-old super avid reader. He loves books. He loves talking about books, but none of his friends were talking to him about books anymore. Once they got to middle school, they had all stopped reading and he hated it. So he created a company called Troy's Top 10. And you tell him one book you enjoyed, just tell me one book that you liked and he will find he has created bookmarks and on the back of each bookmark is the genre and 10 recommendations for that genre.
So if you tell him I loved Divergent, then he's like, oh, cool. Here's my top 10 dystopian future novels. These are what you should read next. And then he's encouraging kids his age to read again because he's telling them exactly what to read and exactly what they'll like. But then he takes it a step further because he puts that list on a bookmark so you don't lose it.
And then he goes to one of our local book Bulk Sales Places and he buys dozens of books at a time for a dollar a piece. And then he bundles them the books with his bookmark. So it's also super sustainable 'cause he is taking all of these books that would've ended up in the trash. And he's reselling them with recommendations on what else to read.
At 14. This is the business he's running.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible.
Leah Ellis: Oh, he's fabulous.
Lindsay Lyons: I am like, I, I am a book nerd. Like, let's talk Troy, gimme your top 10,
Leah Ellis: right? I, I have some of his bookmarks. They're so cute. Um, and then we have another kiddo. Um, she's one of my, it's, this is one of my favorite stories to tell right now.
So we're piloting our full 36 week curriculum and week one she sits down and she's like, I am a child. I cannot be an entrepreneur. My mom forced me into this class and it's done. And I was like, you are gonna be my star student. And she was like, no. And she was like, I wanna be a paramedic. There's nothing that a paramedic can do, starting at 12.
And I'm like, well, you know, I teach first Aid to Girl Scout daisies and we teach them check call care, and like, they can't do much with care, but they could do like a, an ice pack or a bandaid while they were waiting for an adult. So. Couldn't you make like a a child or teenager friendly first aid kit that doesn't have all the extra stuff that kids don't need?
And she was like, yes, but first aid kits are always clear. And I'm an adolescent girl and I really hate clear bags because I need privacy for my stuff. And I was like, that's completely valid. And so I thought that her business was going to be creating these really cool first aid kits. And then she comes to me in week three and she's like, I have a different idea.
And I'm like, okay, what is it? And she was like, I've been thinking about phone cases and how sometimes I wish I could do more with my phone case, but I can't. So I was thinking about like if we made something that would slip on and off of your phone case to change what its function is. And so I showed her pair glasses and how pair glasses work where you have a frame and then you can pop different designs on top of that, like a cap to personalize your glasses for your day or your outfit.
And I was like, so do you mean like pair glasses for a phone? And she was like, I've never heard of pair glasses, but yes. This is exactly what I was thinking because I could have it where like it's a wallet for when I wanna go out and I don't wanna carry a whole purse. Or I could have it where it's a dry erase board for me to doodle with my friends when we're bored.
I could dress it in a tutu, so it's just cute when I'm stuffing it in my bag. And I was like, yeah, you can do all of those things. And so now she's going to the dollar store and buying super cheap phone cases just to practice cutting them apart and building prototypes. When she started literally a month ago with child entrepreneurship is stupid.
Lindsay Lyons: That is incredible. And I'm, so, I'm thinking, okay, there's two trains of thought I have I'm having right now. One is like, what is that in the moment response to like as an adult, you notice this kid who you are like, I'm eager to cultivate the leadership of this child. I see a spark of an idea here, right?
Like. What is that move that you make with that kid to kind of foster that trajectory? And then I also am interested, so you can take either one at a time, uh, is thinking about like the curriculum that you built, so like in a class setting or an after school setting with multiple kids. Like what is, what are the things that, what are the activities that you're doing in terms of maybe skill building?
Maybe it's like ideation, like what's the kind of framework there? So any or both.
Leah Ellis: So I'll do both first. How do, when you see the kid who, like, I, I know this is gonna get to you, but you've gotta get over your own preconceived notions first. Um, ask a question and then when they answer, ask another question and get really curious.
Like, get 4-year-old level curious. Ask them questions until they're annoyed, because they will start realizing that you might be the first adult. Waiting for their opinion instead of telling them what to think. Um, because even when I was like, well, here's an idea, how would that work? And then she was like, well, I have a better idea.
And then it's, okay. Well, but the how is that work? How do you make it, how do you create it? I know that. So I'm one of her elective classes. I know that her following elective is a sewing class. I'm like, okay, well with these two projects, how would you make it work? And watching them. Build on their own ideas while you are simply questioning and encouraging and keeping your mind open and not like, like it's like improv.
Always say Yes. Yes. And what else? Yes. And how, um, so that they can keep going. And then for the curriculum, we have it set up into five units. So the very first unit we start with what is an entrepreneur? And the kids start out by discussing like, what are the traits that an entrepreneur has to have and.
Then they write a mantra for themselves. Um, and they have to write not who they are, but who they are becoming.
Lindsay Lyons: So we make the, oh, I don't have one right here. I thought I might,
Leah Ellis: we make them write like, I am becoming the kind of person who looks for solutions when I'm frustrated because nobody's gonna write down.
I am a problem solver 100% of the time. And I want them to understand that. Like, it, it doesn't have to be black or white, like we're allowed to live in that gray area. And then after they've established what an entrepreneur is, we discuss how entrepreneurship works. Then we start market research, product development.
We do mission and vision statements. We do brand voice and personality and core values, and then we talk about social entrepreneurship, and then we talk elevator pitches. Then at the end of the curriculum, at the end of 36 weeks, they actually do a children's business fair where they have their product in their booth and they sell to their community.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. That's so, so cool. So I am now thinking about challenges that may arise either for the students or for the adults who are involved in something like this. Anything that you can think of that's like a big challenge in this work and how you have. Yourself or seeing others kind of get through that challenge.
Leah Ellis: So for the adults, the biggest challenge is that your job with this is to be a guide and a sounding board. You are not in this moment, the teacher or the manager. You can't tell them how it works. You have to just guide them for finding their own solutions. And that can be really hard as a parent because you want to do, you want your kid to just get it right.
And it can be really hard as a teacher because you're like, let me spell it out for you. And sometimes you have to step back and you have to let them fail. You have to let them build the resilience, build the confidence of recovering from that failure, because I will tell you, I'll shout it from the rooftops, the best way to build confidence is to recover from failure.
And that means letting them fail. Even though as a teacher and as a parent, that's the last thing we want to do is let them fail. And then for kids, it's kind of twofold. Um, the biggest like. Just hang up that gets kids stuck is lack of resources. I mean, when we work with underserved communities, we have to have grants that will give 'em startups costs so that the kids have materials to start their businesses.
Because simply having the resources is something that a lot of us take for granted. And so making sure that we have systems in place so that every child has access to the resources, whether that means a 3D printer in a library or a cricket for school-wide use. Um, creating, you know, this is our community craft space and anybody can take anything out of the space and making sure that they have those resources.
And then the second one is the mind shift change for the kids of the fact that they might be in a place where they are developing skills their parents haven't developed yet. Having to live with that middle of knowing that their parents could do it, but their parents don't know how, and trying not to let it pull them back down and trying to maintain that open-mindedness while they're developing themselves and teaching upward mobility and societal pressure and all of that stuff, and telling them like, it's okay for you to have a better future for your parents and it's okay to drag them along.
Lindsay Lyons: I think about so much of that, like our kids do things better than us, as as adults. Right,
Leah Ellis: right.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. I love that. Right. You can bring them along with you. Um, okay, great. Wow. There's just so much here. I love that we've kind of gone from like. Well, a kind of back and forth between both big picture, what is possible, like painting a picture for us, like what is possible.
Because I think that's sometimes a big hurdle to overcome for adults is like what even is possible, right? But then you also gave us the concrete, like, what do you do one-on-one with a kid? How can you coach Traject trajectory? That's not a word. Uh, like what's the trajectory? Of kind of that curriculum.
And so I'd love to kind of move to close here with a few closing questions. One being, if there's one thing that folks can leave the episode and do immediately, what do you suggest that is?
Leah Ellis: Always, always, every single time ask questions. Like I want every adult to get in touch with their inner 4-year-old and ask questions and allow the child in your life to be the subject matter expert in their life.
Pretend that they know more about themselves than you do, because it's actually the truth and it's just hard for us as adults to come to terms with
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. Great advice. And then this is for fun, could be related to our topic of conversation today. Could be something totally random, but what is something that you personally have been learning about lately?
Leah Ellis: Oh gosh. So I am in an all women's networking group for, um, it's mostly neurodivergent business owner women. So it's a really unique kind of place to hang out. And our conversation this week was on. Um, but becoming like, who are you becoming and the stories that you tell yourself in every situation, and how those stories can shape who you are.
And one piece of advice that they gave that I had never heard before, which was brilliant, is whenever you have a situation in which your initial gut reaction is some kind of like constricting response, like, oh. They didn't answer my email because they hate me. Um, then every time you come into that like gut wrenching response, then force yourself in the moments that matter to come up with two alternative stories, one that's positive and one that's neutral.
So then you might also say like, they didn't answer my email because their computer. Broke, and that's very neutral. Like that's just nothing against, or for me, their computer broke. And then the third one might be like they didn't answer my email because they're waiting to reply until after they secure a $500,000 grant for me.
And so then you're like, okay, so any of these stories are equally likely to be true, so why should I not believe. The positive one, instead of believing all the time, the self-deprecating versions of all of those stories. Also, if you have a $500,000 grant for me, email me. I will take it.
Lindsay Lyons: That is incredible.
I love that. And so immediately actionable. So I'm gonna start using that. Thank you. Uh,
Leah Ellis: yeah. I loved it when she taught it, and it's one of those things that we can teach the kids.
Lindsay Lyons: Uh, oh my God. Great points. And the last question is just people are gonna wanna connect with you and figure out like what you're all about and and your program.
So how do people do that?
Leah Ellis: So, um, you can go to SO cce i ct.org. That'll take you to our website. It has all the things you can see the blog that Lizzie was talking about with my daughter standing on a chair, um, on Facebook and on Instagram. We're just. Society of child entrepreneurs. And then if you really want to get involved in getting those weekly challenges in the lesson plans that I post online, it's school.com/s O-C-E-C-I-R-C-L-E, so it's, it's S-K-O-O-L school.com/sochi circle, and that'll give you the information and that one, one of the levels to join is free, so you don't have to pay to be a member of that.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome, and we can link, if anyone's driving or running or anything, we'll link those in the the show notes so that you don't have to capture that on audio. So thank you so much, Lee. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thanks for sharing all your wisdom.
Leah Ellis: Thank you so much for having me.

​

Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

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In this episode, we talk with Leah Ellis, the founder of The Society of Child Entrepreneurs. Her non-profit fosters an entrepreneurial spirit, leadership, and financial literacy in young people through hands-on experience.  

Leah’s “controversial opinion” is that children are not the future — they are leaders in their own right today. In the episode, she highlights successful youth-led initiatives, such as a child's campaign to introduce a crosswalk to her community and another kid's efforts to inspire middle school classmates to enjoy reading again. Through real stories, Leah illustrates the impact of seeing children as capable contributors and leaders.


The Big Dream 

Leah's big dream is a future where children grow into adults as confident adults who are capable and confident of who they are, their ability to lead, and their ability to solve societal problems. By fostering leadership skills in youth now, she believes we can overcome apathy and frustration that currently plague many adults.

Mindset Shifts Required

The key mindset shift for adults is to transition from seeing kids as future leaders to recognizing their potential as current leaders. Rather than dictating to children, adults should engage in dialogues, ask probing questions, and genuinely listen to young voices. This unlearning process involves understanding that enabling kids to take charge now equips them to handle responsibility and be proactive.

Action Steps  

For adults and educators who want to start partnering with children as leaders can take the following action steps. 

Step 1: Start with your mindset — how do you think about young people and what they’re capable of? What beliefs do you need to challenge in yourself? One way to start seeing how brilliant kids are is to simply ask one to express issues they're annoyed with and what their solution is. They’ve likely already thought of it, but haven’t had the opportunity to share. 

Step 2: Embrace school-home partnerships. The best way to make anything stick is to reinforce it in schools and in the home. Leah recommends the SoCE Circle, an online platform that has weekly challenges and stories that help enforce leadership and problem solving at home.

Step 3: On the school side, educators can implement programs like the Society of Child Entrepreneurs' curriculum to embed entrepreneurial thinking within school systems.

Step 4: Listen to and share stories of what children are doing. This is important because it shifts our mindsets as adults to see what children are really capable of. In the episode, Leah shares stories of children working with the city to get a crosswalk put in, creating a company that recommends book choices, and many other creative business ideas and initiatives. 

Challenges?

The biggest challenge here is for adults to shift their mindsets around what children are capable of right now, not just in the future. For adults, it’s challenging to be a guide and a sounding board only, not a teacher or manager when students are creating their own solutions. 

On the other side, children have challenges accessing resources can be a significant challenge, especially in underserved communities. Additionally, they often face the challenge of growing in environments where they may develop skills surpassing those of their parents.

One Step to Get Started 

The first actionable step is for adults to reconnect with their inner child-like curiosity by continuously asking questions. Engage children in conversations where they are recognized as experts in their own lives, fostering a supportive environment for their ideas to flourish.

Stay Connected

You can find out more about Leah’s work on her website, The Society for Child Entrepreneurs, and their Instagram.  

Free and paid resources are also available through the SoCE Circle. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 257 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 1:01 “[Children] are not the future because they are students of leadership right now. They’re amazing human beings right now. And the more we say ‘children are the future,’ the more we defer into not allowing them to lead now.”
• 2:44 “I think my big audacious, hairy dream is that we have a generation of children who become adults who are secure in themselves, their ability to lead their communities, and their ability to solve problems throughout society.” 
• 16:39 “ Ask a question and then when they answer, ask another question and get really curious. Like, get 4-year-old level curious.  Ask them questions until they're annoyed, because they will start realizing that you might be the first adult waiting for their opinion instead of telling them what to think.”
• 19:44 “ And sometimes you have to step back and you have to let them fail. You have to let them build the resilience, build the confidence of recovering from that failure … The best way to build confidence is to recover from failure.”

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:​

TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Leah Ellis, welcome to the time for Teachership podcast.
Leah Ellis: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for being here. I am just really excited. We are airing this episode as part of a series on youth voice and leadership, and so this fits perfectly in there. Um, one of the questions I've been playing with to start is just kind of like what people want, uh, what you want people to keep in mind as we jump into our conversation.
And so I'll just share like what's on my mind is that you reached out and were like, Hey, we do this cool thing where. Like kids actually start real businesses and take real action in the community. And I was hooked. So te tell us more. What else should we keep in mind?
Leah Ellis: Okay. So I'll tell you my biggest, most scandalous controversial topic, subject, one sentence ever.
Uh, children are not the future. So the thing I wa I, yeah, I know it, it gets every teacher right in the heart. 'cause we're like, wait a second, they're our babies. Yes, yes they are. They're our babies. But they're not the future because they are students of leadership right now and they're amazing human beings right now.
And the more we say children are the future, the more we defer into not allowing them to leave now. And the more we program them. To believe that they can't yet, but then we never tell them when yet is.
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. I love that so much. As a secondary school teacher, I always was frustrated when we were like, what do you want to be?
It's like, what are you, what can you do today? Like.
Leah Ellis: Yeah, exactly. That's, um, I have this challenge and I tell people all the time, 'cause you know, I do the podcasts and people are like, what is the one thing you wanna leave us with? And I'm like, okay, well the one thing I wanna leave you with is go find a child and ask them what thing happens in their daily life that they're annoyed with and how they would fix it.
Because they probably have already thought about it and they just didn't feel comfortable telling you. So when you open the door, they will tell you what's wrong and how to fix it.
Lindsay Lyons: I love it. We got it right at the start of the episode, so great ideas
Leah Ellis: jump in.
Lindsay Lyons: So one of the things that I like to ask everyone on the show is kind of stepping way back in kind of the big dream that you hold for education, learning, youth voice.
Feel free to answer in whatever way. Um, but really inspired by Dr. Patina love talking about freedom dreaming, and she says their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So what is with that in mind, what is that big dream you hold?
Leah Ellis: Okay. So again, I don't believe children are the future because I think they're leaders now, but they are also the leaders of the future.
And so for me, I think my big audacious, hairy dream is that we have a generation of children who become adults, secure in themselves, their ability to lead their communities and their ability to solve problems throughout society. So we have now. A generation of mostly apathetic, frustrated, angry people who feel like we have no power, and if we can teach all these kids what their power is when they're young, then when they reach adulthood, they are advocates for other people.
They're advocates for their communities. They're advocates for solving problems, and they don't feel like they need to stay quiet.
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. And I think one of the mindset shifts you've been consistently talking about since we we started recording is that idea that it's like not the future, it's now. So I think that's a big one that people should take away from this episode.
Are there any other mindset shifts around like, you know, I think about youth adult partnership a lot and youth voice a lot. And there is something that has to happen in the brain of an adult, I think, to unlearn some things before we can truly get into this. So what would you, what advice would you give us?
Leah Ellis: So I'm actually, instead of just giving you blatant advice, um, I'm a teacher, which means I teach through story. So I'm going to tell you the story and then let you kind of pick through some of the things that I had to unlearn, and then we can discuss what that felt like and what it was like. So I had an in-home daycare and I taught engineering curriculum to 3-year-old girls.
It was fabulous. But then we discovered. A in a house that I had owned for 18 months, we discovered 10 years of black mold in the walls. So we had to move into a hotel, we had to tear apart. Most of the ground floor of our house was awful and that meant I had to shut down my daycare. 'cause you can't run an in daycare, um, in a hotel.
That's just not feasible. And when we went back, we were set to reopen our daycare on March 17th, 2020. Which unfortunately was the exact day that our county issued the stay at home order for COVID, and we did not get to reopen, and my husband and I decided to pivot and launch a financial coaching company, but he was deployed.
So I was home alone with an 18 month old and a 4-year-old, and that meant I had to figure out how to do my training while also watching my kids. So I put a lot of business training videos on our living room tv. I watched them while the kids played and I'd watched them while I was washing dishes and whatever I was doing, they were just the background noise of our house at that time.
So my 4-year-old looked at me and said, I wanna start a business too. And of course, being a mother, I said, no way. You're four. You can't start a business. And being a 4-year-old child, the number one word in her vocabulary at the time was why. I didn't like have a good answer. Like I tried to come up with a logical, justifiable reason for why she couldn't start a business, but there wasn't one outside of year four, and nobody's done it before, but especially at that time, we were all doing things that nobody had ever done before.
So what was one more new thing? So I made her tell me what she was gonna sell. We used a Facebook group to vote on her name. She did her launch and she created her business in May of 2020 at four and a half years old. And that then became her doing an art show as a featured artist, her doing her first children's business fair as a child entrepreneur at six years old, and me realizing.
Like the only thing that was holding our children back is the adults. And then when we started the Society of Child Entrepreneurs and seeing that, it wasn't just in my household, but it is a societal thing where we expect 18 year olds to act like adults, but we expect 17 year olds to behave like children.
And if we really want our 18 year olds to act like adults, we have to start letting our seven and eight year olds know what an adult does.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Love that. So sorry, continue if
Leah Ellis: you want. No, no. So it was, it's a long story, but that's kind of where we came from was what do we want the future to look like and how early do we need to start to get it there?
And the answer is, elementary school, we need to start an elementary school teaching them these problem solving these life skills so that they're second nature when they reach 25 years old.
Lindsay Lyons: For sure. And I love, I mean, as the parent of an almost 4-year-old, I'm like loving this story of like, yeah, why, why not?
Like why? Tell me why. Love it. Um, also just love your. Adaptability in that moment. Right. I think a lot of adults, sometimes it's like we are kind of hit with this like moment of wait. Yeah, why not? Or wait, wow, this is possible. And you went there. And I think that's such an inspiration to people who also are going to confront those moments where it's like, oh, I can shift and, and then we all shift together.
Leah Ellis: Right? Well, and it's so easy to just be like, because I said so, but then we're like, well, but. I mean, nothing in that, nothing at life was normal at that point. So it was, well, what's one more abnormal thing to throw into the ring? And now she's the junior executive director of our organization at 10 years old.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. That is so awesome. I am thoughtful of a couple things here. Two groups of audiences and, and sometimes over overlapping. So we have mostly our audience of people who are in education, right? They have a formal role in education, their teachers, um, maybe leaders. Instructional coaches, but we also have people who, and maybe are also in education, but are family members and thinking about like youth voice at home.
And so I'm, I'm seeing and, and, and noticing in your story that really, this can be both, right? This can be what we do at home and it's also likely in partnership with what we're doing at school. So any advice you have for either or both. Kind of hats the family hat or the teacher educator hat.
Leah Ellis: So both one.
Um, for teachers and educators, I've made this super easy for you. At the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, we've actually developed a 36 weeks school curriculum that's two hours a week, so you can literally buy our curriculum and stick it in an afterschool program and teach this in your building. Plug and play.
The worksheets are already there and everything, so you just make your copies and read from the lesson plans, so it makes life super easy for you. But for families, because we all know the best way for anything to stick is to do it at home and in school we created an organization called the Sochi Circle, and it's an online platform.
And every week I post a family challenge and it's like, here's a short story. Here's why it matters. Here's the challenge for your family to stabilize financial literacy, leadership, or problem solving for your kiddo at home. And when you can take that program at school and these challenges at home, then it becomes a part of the culture and not just like this one hobby.
Lindsay Lyons: That's super cool. I think that's exactly right because I, I don't think that anything that is true student voice or youth voice can just be this one siloed activity. It has to be part of the culture and the way we do things and the way we treat kids and interact with them. Right. So I love that. Um, are there moments or kind of wins or projects or businesses started that you want to highlight?
And I mean, specifically I just looked on your website. Today and I was like, oh, there's this update since I've been on there and it's talking about like a 10-year-old trying to get a crosswalk in their community, like standing in front, right? Like so there's just. So many wins, I'm sure. Do you wanna share some with us?
Leah Ellis: So the 10-year-old on the blog post, that's my oldest daughter. Uh, so she's the one who started all of this and yeah, she walked into my office and she was like, we need a crosswalk. I'm going to city council. And she stood on a chair, told the mayor, paint a si, a crosswalk right here. Then sent an email to the city administrators that was like, okay, now that we've discussed it, what are your next steps and what do I need to do to make sure it continues on?
So she has a meeting on Monday with the Main Street Planning Committee to work on getting her crosswalk put in. She is amazing, and I could tell like 500 stories just about melody because she inspires me daily, but she's not the only kid in the Society of Child entrepreneurs and she's not the only one doing amazing things.
So we have another kiddo. You mentioned that you're in secondary education, so you know very well that reading for pleasure drops off statistically at a massive level after fourth grade. So by the time they get to middle and high school, nobody's reading for fun anymore, and the ones who are labeled nerds and all that stuff.
I have a, one of our members, he's a 14-year-old super avid reader. He loves books. He loves talking about books, but none of his friends were talking to him about books anymore. Once they got to middle school, they had all stopped reading and he hated it. So he created a company called Troy's Top 10. And you tell him one book you enjoyed, just tell me one book that you liked and he will find he has created bookmarks and on the back of each bookmark is the genre and 10 recommendations for that genre.
So if you tell him I loved Divergent, then he's like, oh, cool. Here's my top 10 dystopian future novels. These are what you should read next. And then he's encouraging kids his age to read again because he's telling them exactly what to read and exactly what they'll like. But then he takes it a step further because he puts that list on a bookmark so you don't lose it.
And then he goes to one of our local book Bulk Sales Places and he buys dozens of books at a time for a dollar a piece. And then he bundles them the books with his bookmark. So it's also super sustainable 'cause he is taking all of these books that would've ended up in the trash. And he's reselling them with recommendations on what else to read.
At 14. This is the business he's running.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible.
Leah Ellis: Oh, he's fabulous.
Lindsay Lyons: I am like, I, I am a book nerd. Like, let's talk Troy, gimme your top 10,
Leah Ellis: right? I, I have some of his bookmarks. They're so cute. Um, and then we have another kiddo. Um, she's one of my, it's, this is one of my favorite stories to tell right now.
So we're piloting our full 36 week curriculum and week one she sits down and she's like, I am a child. I cannot be an entrepreneur. My mom forced me into this class and it's done. And I was like, you are gonna be my star student. And she was like, no. And she was like, I wanna be a paramedic. There's nothing that a paramedic can do, starting at 12.
And I'm like, well, you know, I teach first Aid to Girl Scout daisies and we teach them check call care, and like, they can't do much with care, but they could do like a, an ice pack or a bandaid while they were waiting for an adult. So. Couldn't you make like a a child or teenager friendly first aid kit that doesn't have all the extra stuff that kids don't need?
And she was like, yes, but first aid kits are always clear. And I'm an adolescent girl and I really hate clear bags because I need privacy for my stuff. And I was like, that's completely valid. And so I thought that her business was going to be creating these really cool first aid kits. And then she comes to me in week three and she's like, I have a different idea.
And I'm like, okay, what is it? And she was like, I've been thinking about phone cases and how sometimes I wish I could do more with my phone case, but I can't. So I was thinking about like if we made something that would slip on and off of your phone case to change what its function is. And so I showed her pair glasses and how pair glasses work where you have a frame and then you can pop different designs on top of that, like a cap to personalize your glasses for your day or your outfit.
And I was like, so do you mean like pair glasses for a phone? And she was like, I've never heard of pair glasses, but yes. This is exactly what I was thinking because I could have it where like it's a wallet for when I wanna go out and I don't wanna carry a whole purse. Or I could have it where it's a dry erase board for me to doodle with my friends when we're bored.
I could dress it in a tutu, so it's just cute when I'm stuffing it in my bag. And I was like, yeah, you can do all of those things. And so now she's going to the dollar store and buying super cheap phone cases just to practice cutting them apart and building prototypes. When she started literally a month ago with child entrepreneurship is stupid.
Lindsay Lyons: That is incredible. And I'm, so, I'm thinking, okay, there's two trains of thought I have I'm having right now. One is like, what is that in the moment response to like as an adult, you notice this kid who you are like, I'm eager to cultivate the leadership of this child. I see a spark of an idea here, right?
Like. What is that move that you make with that kid to kind of foster that trajectory? And then I also am interested, so you can take either one at a time, uh, is thinking about like the curriculum that you built, so like in a class setting or an after school setting with multiple kids. Like what is, what are the things that, what are the activities that you're doing in terms of maybe skill building?
Maybe it's like ideation, like what's the kind of framework there? So any or both.
Leah Ellis: So I'll do both first. How do, when you see the kid who, like, I, I know this is gonna get to you, but you've gotta get over your own preconceived notions first. Um, ask a question and then when they answer, ask another question and get really curious.
Like, get 4-year-old level curious. Ask them questions until they're annoyed, because they will start realizing that you might be the first adult. Waiting for their opinion instead of telling them what to think. Um, because even when I was like, well, here's an idea, how would that work? And then she was like, well, I have a better idea.
And then it's, okay. Well, but the how is that work? How do you make it, how do you create it? I know that. So I'm one of her elective classes. I know that her following elective is a sewing class. I'm like, okay, well with these two projects, how would you make it work? And watching them. Build on their own ideas while you are simply questioning and encouraging and keeping your mind open and not like, like it's like improv.
Always say Yes. Yes. And what else? Yes. And how, um, so that they can keep going. And then for the curriculum, we have it set up into five units. So the very first unit we start with what is an entrepreneur? And the kids start out by discussing like, what are the traits that an entrepreneur has to have and.
Then they write a mantra for themselves. Um, and they have to write not who they are, but who they are becoming.
Lindsay Lyons: So we make the, oh, I don't have one right here. I thought I might,
Leah Ellis: we make them write like, I am becoming the kind of person who looks for solutions when I'm frustrated because nobody's gonna write down.
I am a problem solver 100% of the time. And I want them to understand that. Like, it, it doesn't have to be black or white, like we're allowed to live in that gray area. And then after they've established what an entrepreneur is, we discuss how entrepreneurship works. Then we start market research, product development.
We do mission and vision statements. We do brand voice and personality and core values, and then we talk about social entrepreneurship, and then we talk elevator pitches. Then at the end of the curriculum, at the end of 36 weeks, they actually do a children's business fair where they have their product in their booth and they sell to their community.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. That's so, so cool. So I am now thinking about challenges that may arise either for the students or for the adults who are involved in something like this. Anything that you can think of that's like a big challenge in this work and how you have. Yourself or seeing others kind of get through that challenge.
Leah Ellis: So for the adults, the biggest challenge is that your job with this is to be a guide and a sounding board. You are not in this moment, the teacher or the manager. You can't tell them how it works. You have to just guide them for finding their own solutions. And that can be really hard as a parent because you want to do, you want your kid to just get it right.
And it can be really hard as a teacher because you're like, let me spell it out for you. And sometimes you have to step back and you have to let them fail. You have to let them build the resilience, build the confidence of recovering from that failure, because I will tell you, I'll shout it from the rooftops, the best way to build confidence is to recover from failure.
And that means letting them fail. Even though as a teacher and as a parent, that's the last thing we want to do is let them fail. And then for kids, it's kind of twofold. Um, the biggest like. Just hang up that gets kids stuck is lack of resources. I mean, when we work with underserved communities, we have to have grants that will give 'em startups costs so that the kids have materials to start their businesses.
Because simply having the resources is something that a lot of us take for granted. And so making sure that we have systems in place so that every child has access to the resources, whether that means a 3D printer in a library or a cricket for school-wide use. Um, creating, you know, this is our community craft space and anybody can take anything out of the space and making sure that they have those resources.
And then the second one is the mind shift change for the kids of the fact that they might be in a place where they are developing skills their parents haven't developed yet. Having to live with that middle of knowing that their parents could do it, but their parents don't know how, and trying not to let it pull them back down and trying to maintain that open-mindedness while they're developing themselves and teaching upward mobility and societal pressure and all of that stuff, and telling them like, it's okay for you to have a better future for your parents and it's okay to drag them along.
Lindsay Lyons: I think about so much of that, like our kids do things better than us, as as adults. Right,
Leah Ellis: right.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. I love that. Right. You can bring them along with you. Um, okay, great. Wow. There's just so much here. I love that we've kind of gone from like. Well, a kind of back and forth between both big picture, what is possible, like painting a picture for us, like what is possible.
Because I think that's sometimes a big hurdle to overcome for adults is like what even is possible, right? But then you also gave us the concrete, like, what do you do one-on-one with a kid? How can you coach Traject trajectory? That's not a word. Uh, like what's the trajectory? Of kind of that curriculum.
And so I'd love to kind of move to close here with a few closing questions. One being, if there's one thing that folks can leave the episode and do immediately, what do you suggest that is?
Leah Ellis: Always, always, every single time ask questions. Like I want every adult to get in touch with their inner 4-year-old and ask questions and allow the child in your life to be the subject matter expert in their life.
Pretend that they know more about themselves than you do, because it's actually the truth and it's just hard for us as adults to come to terms with
Lindsay Lyons: Love that. Great advice. And then this is for fun, could be related to our topic of conversation today. Could be something totally random, but what is something that you personally have been learning about lately?
Leah Ellis: Oh gosh. So I am in an all women's networking group for, um, it's mostly neurodivergent business owner women. So it's a really unique kind of place to hang out. And our conversation this week was on. Um, but becoming like, who are you becoming and the stories that you tell yourself in every situation, and how those stories can shape who you are.
And one piece of advice that they gave that I had never heard before, which was brilliant, is whenever you have a situation in which your initial gut reaction is some kind of like constricting response, like, oh. They didn't answer my email because they hate me. Um, then every time you come into that like gut wrenching response, then force yourself in the moments that matter to come up with two alternative stories, one that's positive and one that's neutral.
So then you might also say like, they didn't answer my email because their computer. Broke, and that's very neutral. Like that's just nothing against, or for me, their computer broke. And then the third one might be like they didn't answer my email because they're waiting to reply until after they secure a $500,000 grant for me.
And so then you're like, okay, so any of these stories are equally likely to be true, so why should I not believe. The positive one, instead of believing all the time, the self-deprecating versions of all of those stories. Also, if you have a $500,000 grant for me, email me. I will take it.
Lindsay Lyons: That is incredible.
I love that. And so immediately actionable. So I'm gonna start using that. Thank you. Uh,
Leah Ellis: yeah. I loved it when she taught it, and it's one of those things that we can teach the kids.
Lindsay Lyons: Uh, oh my God. Great points. And the last question is just people are gonna wanna connect with you and figure out like what you're all about and and your program.
So how do people do that?
Leah Ellis: So, um, you can go to SO cce i ct.org. That'll take you to our website. It has all the things you can see the blog that Lizzie was talking about with my daughter standing on a chair, um, on Facebook and on Instagram. We're just. Society of child entrepreneurs. And then if you really want to get involved in getting those weekly challenges in the lesson plans that I post online, it's school.com/s O-C-E-C-I-R-C-L-E, so it's, it's S-K-O-O-L school.com/sochi circle, and that'll give you the information and that one, one of the levels to join is free, so you don't have to pay to be a member of that.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome, and we can link, if anyone's driving or running or anything, we'll link those in the the show notes so that you don't have to capture that on audio. So thank you so much, Lee. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thanks for sharing all your wisdom.
Leah Ellis: Thank you so much for having me.

​

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In this episode, we dive into a discussion about youth-adult partnerships with guests Lindsey Halman, Jacoby Soter, and Ana Lindert-Boyes from UP for Learning, an organization committed to reimagining and transforming education through youth-adult partnerships. 

Our conversation highlights the immense potential of redefining educational spaces through shared leadership between youth and adults. The guests discuss the importance of valuing youth voice, fostering systemic changes in education, and embracing non-traditional learning methods to create environments where all participants can contribute and thrive.

The Big Dream 

The vision shared by the UP for Learning team is an education system where equity is not a mere privilege but a fundamental human right. At its core, the dream is to create environments within schools where both students and educators are seen as partners in learning. This involves breaking down existing structural barriers that have been deeply embedded over centuries and fostering practices where every participant's unique background is leveraged as a source of strength.

Mindset Shifts Required

A significant theme in the conversation is the necessity for adults to cultivate a mindset that views youth as capable partners rather than passive recipients of instruction. This includes recognizing students as valuable contributors and reframing their roles to empower them in decision-making processes. 

Ana, Jacoby, and Lindsey each emphasize the need to embrace discomfort and openness to new ideas, dismantling entrenched educational structures, and adopting project-based and personalized learning approaches.

Action Steps  

For educators, leaders, and other adults seeking to strengthen youth-adult partnerships in a meaningful way, our guests suggest the following action steps: 

Step 1: Initiate personal reflection on how educators perceive students. Start by considering students as holistic individuals with valuable insights to offer beyond traditional academic metrics. The mindset shifts that see youth voices as necessary in this partnership is the key piece to any future work. For educators and adults, this is the key place to start. 

Step 2: Make use of practical tools like "64 Ways to Strengthen Youth Voice" to find small yet impactful actions educators and community members can adopt to infuse youth-adult partnership principles into everyday practice.

Step 3: Implement tangible activities, such as classroom circle discussions, to foster reflection and empower students. By redesigning classroom settings to include collaborative discussions, educators can practice and facilitate the integration of youth voices.

Challenges?

The resistance to building youth-adult partnership often stems from long-standing educational models. Many educators and leaders may find it difficult to relinquish conventional roles and embrace new ways of interacting that center equity and shared leadership. This shift demands patience, persistence, and a willingness to be uncomfortable but are crucial for systemic transformation.

Stay Connected

You can learn more about the organization on the UP for Learning website or Instagram. Keep in touch with Jacoby via email at [email protected] or on LinkedIn; and Ana at [email protected] or on LinkedIn

To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing The P.O.W.E.R. Framework and LETS ACT Framework with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 256 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 4:55 “One of our core values is that we view educational equity as not just a privilege, but as a human right.” (Jacoby)
• 8:40 “ These dreams that we have about centering equity and justice in our educational systems can be a reality if we have that high level of leadership and vision to do that, and if we have educators who feel empowered to be able to change a system that has operated in a particular way for 150 years plus. And, when there's that support from the community.” (Lindsey)
• 15:03 “The most basic level of youth-adult partnerships … is that adults need to view youth voices as valuable and necessary.” (Ana)

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:​

TRANSCRIPT

Ep 256 Ana, Jacoby, & LindseyLindsay Lyons: Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast, everyone. So I am here with Lindsay, Anna, and Jacoby. Thank you so much for being here today. I would love to just open it up to whoever wants to share first. Um. Just sharing kind of what is on your mind today or what people should kind of know about you. Um, the Up for Learning program, I have always been a fan of this program, kind of watching from afar on your email list and knowing you guys are doing really cool things in the student voice space.
Um, and so would love to get your take on what folks should know and what you're passionate about.
Lindsey: Would you all like me to start? Great. Well, thanks for having a flimsy. Um, my name is Lindsay Hallman and I'm the executive Director at Up For Learning, which actually stands for unleashing the Power of Partnership for Learning. But we like to say up for learning because it's much easier to remember and easier to say.
And, um, uh, our work really is, uh, guided by our mission to reimagine and transform education. Partnerships. So our why is that youth and adults need to be together, working together to create systemic change, um, in authentic partnership sharing power, voice, and responsibility in order for us to create.
Changes in a system, educational system, or any kind of in structural system that, um, has, uh, been really deeply rooted in, um, adult ways of being and mindset. So our work is about changing our. Mindsets our mental models and then working together as youth and adults through, uh, youth participatory action research to ensure that we're bringing in the voices of the community, um, to create changes that are gonna benefit all.
I'll pass it on to my colleagues.
Jacoby: Yeah. Um, thank you Lindsey. Um, and thank you Lindsay for having us. Um, my name is Jacobi. I am a youth program specialist with UP for Learning, and I'm currently a senior in high school. I think what's really important to understand and think about our work is that, you know, although our mission is to kind of go into schools and kind of help create youth adult teams in schools, we live that mission in our work every day.
We have youth on our staff, we have adults on our staff. We kind of have like. People in between the youth and adults. We really kind of have everybody, um, of all ages really working together so that we're able to go into schools confidently and understand some of the challenges that they may be facing.
'cause we have probably figured out ways to overcome those challenges ourselves in our organization, which is something that a lot of organizations, um. Maybe cannot necessarily say as confidently as we can, that we really do live and breathe our mission every day, which is super exciting.
Ana: Um, thanks Kuby. Um, thank you for having us, Lindsay. I'm really excited to be here. Uh, my name is Anna. I usually her pronouns. Um, I'm a program associate at for Learning. Um, and I'm also a senior at Boston University. Um, uh. Yeah, I think I'm gonna echo a lot of what Jacoby said. I think that's like one of like the biggest standouts, um, and aspects of OP is the fact that we live our mission.
Um, so I actually started working with Up for Learning when I was, um, a freshman in high school. So it's been about seven years now. Um, and I remember, you know, in high school I would go to like conferences and like be able to like be involved in like the education world and sphere. Um, and you get like a lot of organizations and people talking about youth adult partnership.
But then like you'd go to like a breakout and it was just like adults talking about youth partnership. Um, so I think like what's really, really impactful about up is that there are youth involved in like every aspect of the work. Um. I think just like knowing that and like, like literally like growing up with the organization in that way.
Like so much of like the way that I think and, um, I'm majoring in education right now. Um, so much of that is just influenced by like up and ups values and, um, the way that I've been able to be involved.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Thank you guys so much. It is such a cool, unique organization. I love that you've highlighted different aspects of it.
I also think you've started to answer my next question, but I would love to see if you have anything else to add here. So Dr. Patina loves, she talks about this idea of freedom dreaming, using this phrase, dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that kind of in mind. Um, what do you as individuals kind of wish that school or maybe even learning in general?
Um, could be or would be?
Jacoby: I think we, one of our core values is that we view educational equity as not just a privilege, but as a human. Right. And so we see that when schools aren't working in partnership with young people operating in the width category of restorative practice and really engaging in equitable pro processes to engage young people who come from all sorts of backgrounds to really take charge in their learning.
We see that as an injustice, um, in our dream, um, which we're able to actually really see tangible impacts happen in all of our teams, but we're able to. Create spaces where traditionally like young people who come from certain backgrounds may not be in your typical student council student. But what we're able to do is when we go into schools, like we require that our teams have people from all backgrounds.
And so we're really empowering both, um, people who would be typically involved in a student leadership or a school transformation group. Um, but we also bring in people who you, we try and build a breakfast club, um, of folks to join our team. We, because we understand that in order to change a system, we have to look for the people who experience the system in both the ways that are really positive and some of the people who are, you know, targeted by the system.
And so how can we make that system work with everybody and actually support them instead of bringing them back and preventing them. From learning and taking a really, um, and really taking charge of their own education.
Speaker 4: Um, yeah, I think for me at just like a foundational level, um, just hoping to create like a future where. All people in a school system and community. So thinking about like youth and adults, students and teachers, um, community members and families really feel represented, um, and engaged and excited in their roles in their schools and communities.
Um, so like a lot of what we do, like that Jacobi just mentioned really gets at that. Um, I think a large part of it is like, I'm like a really big advocate for like personalization, um, in education and like curriculum because I've had like really. Probably like life changing experiences with like opportunities to be able to like personalize my own learning, um, in a way that's really special to me.
Um, making sure, you know, that there are like connections to real life, you know, like getting at students' actual interests, um, real life applications, um, and then like structured support from adults. Um, so yeah, I think like personalization and really like getting to know the student and then like making sure that everyone feels really valued in their spaces.
Ana: I would add. So for me, um, my dream, um, I really had the opportunity to realize in many ways what that dream could be. I was a middle school educator, a public middle school educator for 15 years prior to coming to UP for learning. And during that time, um, I had. Uh, leadership that really had a strong vision for, um, how we could ensure that we were addressing every young person's, uh, unique learning styles and needs and, um, and really transform the system.
So I was able to create, um, a school within a school, uh, called the Edge Academy for about a decade of my teaching career. And what I know from that is that you. You can, these dreams that we have about, um, centering equity and justice in our educational systems can be a reality. If we have, you know, both the leadership, so at that high level of like leadership and vision to do that.
And then we have educators who ha feel empowered to be able to change a system that has operated in a particular way for 150 years plus. And um, and there's that support from the community. There's, um, buy-in from the community and that they feel they are a part of it. Um, and that. That communication is really, um, very strong between both the community and the school.
Um, and so when I was teaching with the Edge Academy, um, I was deeply, uh, partnering with the youth that I worked with. It was a multi-age group of young people. We, um, centered, uh, education for sustainability. Um, in our work. So really centering like economic, environmental and, um, social justice and everything we did.
So, um, that involved both young people as really authentic partners. They helped to co-create the curriculum. It was project-based learning. We had many community partners where young people are getting out into the community and engaging in, um. Projects that supported, uh, positive change in their community.
And, um, we also, I have a big, you know, one of my dreams is like the big kind of, uh, slowdown of schools. Like everything is so fast and there's so many transitions and we're always functioning at this, this like, frenetic pace. Um, and so we were able to like really take larger. Blocks of time, personalize it.
As Anna said, um, every young person, um, before really personalized learning plans and flexible pathways were really kind of buzzwords. We were, we were doing that work, um, and really. Looking at each of the different structures that are in place and asking why are these in place and who are they serving?
And then working to dismantle those structures in order to ensure that young people were really centered in, um, in their unique abilities and needs.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Thank you, all of you for your thoughtful responses there. I what you were just saying, Lindsay, you just made me think about, you know, the, the. Enduring kind of like 150 year long cycle of this type of traditional structure of teaching.
Um. We, we to transform it, I imagine, takes a different kind of mindset or approach, right? And so I'm curious from each of you what your, your thoughts are around, like what are those really powerful like moments of, oh, someone has shifted their mindset, or this collection of adults has shifted their mindset and they are approaching youth at all partnerships in this particular way, or they're engaging with youth in this particular way, like.
What are those mindsets you could advise the audience members of this episode on? Um, like, if we can think this way, we're gonna have a lot of opportunity open up to us in different ways of being.
Jacoby: Yeah, I think, um, a time for me would be for the amount of time that I've been in high school, um, we've had kind of like our personal learning plan coordinator, um, had assumed that role and. Just in talking with her, she's my club advisor and we do a lot of work together. She is, um, an independent learning for English advisor for me as well, and.
She has told me on multiple occasions before, like getting all, um, her certifications and project-based learning, um, and like the personal learning plan and career pathways. She was an English teacher and she had just taught novels, just really taught like these ideas and would've never allowed like Grammarly or AI or these other things that really.
Kind of suppress a student's ability to take pride in their work because they may not have had a strong foundational level in English. We were taught how to read wrong. Many of us were because of a lot of things, and a lot of times, just because those are some of the harder parts of the language. Um, and she has said on multiple occasions, if she were to go back to being like a regular classroom, a teacher, that she would not do another novel.
She would not teach another novel. She would do an entirely project-based, like backwards design approach to looking at what's the end goal and moving backwards and setting steps for individual students. Uh, she's actually designed a course for next year as an introduction to work-based learning. And in Vermont, every school is required to have flexible pathways and work-based learning is a way for that.
And a lot of people only get access to junior or seniors on a disciplinary route. However, at our school, I'm on it and I'm not on a disciplinary route. Um, and this is gonna be offered for ninth and 10th graders as a way to get their feet wet and a way to really engage in a project-based learning English class, um, with a teacher who has actually like, had a total mind shift in like.
There's no, like, there's no resources that you're allowed to use to help you on this. And instead is now encouraging the use of, um, AI in smart ways and teaching students how to like actually expand their work, um, and grow their knowledge using both AI and, um, research that they come up with. Really doing that in a way where she's a facilitator and a agent of learning, and not necessarily a sho of knowledge into people's brains, but as somebody who's able to really pull it out and help people, um, who traditionally don't succeed, really find belonging and joy in their classes.
Speaker 4: Um, I think for me, uh. Like the most basic level of like youth adult partnership and the mind, the mindset shift that people kind of need to make to feel comfortable in that. Um, what comes to mind first is like adults need to view youth voice as valuable and necessary. Um, they also need to view youth as, um, capable and like agents of their own learning.
Um, and then I think. A large part of it too is just keeping, like, keeping a really open mind. So like being open to valuing different types of learning, um, apart from like the conventional types that we often lean into. Um, and then being open to like Lindsay or was talking earlier about like dismantling structures.
Really being open to like being uncomfortable. Um, because we know is not gonna be like a simple, easy process to change, like structures and things that have been in place for hundreds of years. Um, but yeah, I think the biggest thing is just like. If you don't believe that youth are going to be able to step up into their roles as leaders, then it will not happen.
Um, so I think this, like, this, this sense of like belief and confidence in them.
Ana: Yeah. I really appreciate this question, Lindsay, because um, our work it up for learning, it starts with shifting our people's mental models because you need to change your mindset. You need to have that paradigm shift and really have a different mental model for.
Um, what schools could be in order to do this work, and it's. That's really hard work to change our mental models. We know schools as we know them, right? They've operated in this way. And so to, to start helping people really shift their, um, their mindset around, uh, what it would mean to partner with young people and, um, takes time.
So that's the work that we do, is like we start by. You know, establishing really strong youth, adult teams that are getting, you know, really building their sense of like, what does it mean to work in partnership, exploring their own mental models. And then, um, once they've really developed their own partnership on their team.
It already creates that buy-in, right. So, and often on our teams, we have superintendents, we have principals, we have educators, we have community members, school board members. Of course we have young lots of youth, but it's really important that young people and adults are. Have the opportunity to sit together and have these conversations around, around what school is and what it could be, um, in order to change that mindset.
And I think the, the thing that is really niche about up for learning and important is that there's a lot of, you know, student voice and amplifying student voice and elevating student voice and et cetera is fundamental to what we do. But what is really, really niche about what we do is. The work around partnership that, you know, we really believe fundamentally that youth and adults should be sharing power, voice, and responsibility in their educational journey.
And in decision making. And so that takes a lot of time and tending to relationships and tending to the climate and the culture of the school or the organization. Like I said before, it also requires that the leadership buys in, um, or at least has a willingness because again, when you're shifting mental MI models or mindsets, it might be really uncomfortable, like Anna was saying.
It's, you know, there's this level of discomfort and so we just need a willingness. To begin the work. And then once people start doing the work, they, they recognize that this is, oh, this is the way I wanna be operating. So then we are working with, you know, teams for, for, you know, multiple years as they continue to think about what is the next structure in our school that we wanna change and dismantle so that we really are centering young people in decisions.
Lindsay Lyons: I am just so blown away by all of your thoughtful responses, but also like all of the stuff that I know just prior to hitting record that you all are doing. And so I'm curious now if we can transition to like, what is an example of youth adult partnership or like a, you know, a learning experience or however you wanna interpret that.
Um. It's had like a big influence on either you, the community, both. I think, you know, there's just so much research that youth developed. Partnerships are good for individuals and communities. But I would love to hear like kind of the story behind something that you've worked on and felt is important. I.
Speaker 4: I can talk to kind of my own experience. Um, I mentioned earlier that I've been working with up for a really long time now. Um, and I think like. Originally, like when I was in middle school or even like early high school, I was never like, just didn't talk very much. I was like very shy, like erred on like the, the quiet side.
Um, and didn't really like view myself as any sort of like leader in my community or like any sort of particular advocate for, for a particular cause. Um. But I think that being involved with that and like, yeah, that was 2018 was when I met Lindsay for the first time. Um, and that was like my first experience being like, oh wow, like this is like a completely different way of interacting with adults.
Like we're partnering versus like they're my teacher. Um, that's their sole role. Um, and it just feel, it's like, yeah, I think a lot of it is, uh. Like the mindset. Um, so like, I feel like working with like Lindsay, I really did feel like, oh, like she believes that like, I can do this. Um, and that bolstered me a lot.
Uh. So, yeah, I just feel like that like continued relationship and like growth and support really changed, uh, kinda like the course of my life, honestly. I think like it would be like very different if I had never gotten involved with up. Um, and so now I do view myself as like a, a type of leader. Um, and I would not have said that before, before getting involved and getting, being able to experience like True Youth Digital Partnership.
Jacoby: Yeah, I think. For me, like, um, a big shift has been, I feel like, kind of on the other side of what Ana said, like I, well maybe in a same, a similar way, but I always thought that being a leader meant that you were the one who talked the most and really took charge in a meeting. Um, that's what I strived to do.
And then through my work with up and then just kind of learning from my superintendent and then kind of teachers and principals like. That it's harmful to do that, and you suppress other people's voices. And then the person who's doing that, in this case myself, ended up being the person who had the burden of doing all the work because there wasn't the shared trust, um, and the shared power and buy-in.
Uh, and a big thing that was really changed in starting working with up, at least I hope has changed, um, has been that I have, I feel like. Stepped back, but allowed other people to step up and kind of take more on and be okay with not doing everything, be okay with filling the silence, allowing other people to speak my truth.
And a lot of those are, are meeting norms that we say once a week and we highlight and revisit as a youth, adult, um, team, and. And the school team that I work with, it's really been a good impact and I can feel confident in the sustainability of people wanting to carry on the mission of our school board, our student school board group, and our mission to voice our students' perspectives and our school district.
I can feel confident leaving, knowing that that mission is going to be carried on. Not because I did everything, but because I stepped back and allowed other people to take charge and do their own projects and really feel empowered to do that work. And I think had up for learning outcome to my school.
And had I not gotten to learn from the people at up for learning and then the schools that we work with, I think that, um, I would be in a different place. Um, and the people around me would also be in a different place.
Ana: And I guess to add on, so I've had the privilege of like really witnessing, um, the growth of both, you know, Ana and Jacoby and myself, you know, through my time at Up for Learning. And so I think, you know, they were really speaking to the, um, the power of. The work that we do both internally and externally.
I'm sorry if my wifis going in and out a little bit. It's okay. Um, and, um, so this, you know, everything that we. Is that our, you know, our core values and principles is the way in which we operate internally. You know, shared decision making, shared responsibility, um, shared power. And, and that's, and because we are so, like, that's what guides our work every day, the way in which we approach our youth, adult teams and the communities that we serve.
Um, you know, it's, it's really authentic and it's meaningful and we've developed really deep relationships with our partners in the community. I think what Jacob spoke to define leadership. The student council representative, or the representative to the school board, or the person who talks the loudest or has a lot of social capital.
But we know it up for learning that everyone has leadership within them and that there's lots of different types of leaders. So our work is really to, um. Elevate all those voices, right? To bring the every voice to, to their community to be able to share their experiences. And it's really, really important that young people, especially those that have felt that they have not been as engaged in their educational experience or seen or valued, are really, their voices are really lifted up in our process because that's, those are the changes we need to make.
We keep listening to the same voices over and over again. As much as those voices are great and valued, we're really only listening to, you know, the same narrative over and over again. And we're not creating the changes that we need for all of our students. And, um, and what I, we, some examples of that, we talked to the internal piece.
Um, we've had some really unique, um, like. Like the, the local level, but then state level examples, both in Vermont and in Delaware and in Massachusetts. We've partnered with, um, our state agencies of education, our departments of education on, um. Systemic projects to infuse youth, adult partnership and youth engagement into, um, both state level decision making.
So in Vermont, I would say we did a, a statewide project on school safety. I can tell you as an educator, and I imagine Ana and Jacobi can speak to it as students, school safety, both like. The school safety, like protocols and procedures like, um, and also school climate and culture is not something that young people are often asked to provide feedback on.
So we really shifted that model to make it, to ensure that young people, um, were provided space to, um, share their experiences with school safety, develop recommendations for state teams, and then hopefully put those. Recommendations into practice. Um, and so that's one example. We also have some, um, major, uh, educational transformational transformation work happening in our state.
And our agency of education has been very clear that they want youth engaged at, um, all levels to provide feedback on, um. On both the policy, but also like the, the new structures too statewide. Graduation requirements. We don't have statewide graduation requirements in Vermont. Um, in Delaware through our, um, partnership with the Delaware Department of Education.
We've now been, um, expanding our work throughout the state at, um, districtwide to ensure that every school, um, right now we're in two districts and we're continuing to expand. Every school in these large districts have student voice advisories. And so both from elementary school for, for example, one school district, the Brandywine School District, um, in Wilmington.
Um. There are nine elementary schools, three middle schools, and three high schools. All have student Voice Advisor, where there's youth and adults working together through the YAR process using participatory action research. Looking at the data. Um, of, of their data and their peers data to really create change.
Um, that's been like, so that's what gets to the systemic change, you know, part of it and the sustainability part of it. So, um, and that is continuing to grow. We're now in another school district. Um, so what I'm really, um, encouraged by is the state level partnerships. I'm also really encouraged by our local level partnerships.
All of our partnerships, but I the fact that, you know, Vermont. Delaware, Massachusetts, New Hampshire are really seeking to have youth and adults partnering in, in big systems change work. And they're, they're valuing, valuing this work. Um, and so, um, I guess those are some examples I would speak to. And then I think also, you know, just knowing that many of our teams that we've worked with continue to.
Engage either with us or ultimately our hope is that you don't up for learning, doesn't need to be there to facilitate the process or they've gone to a place where they are, they have created changes in their system where youth and adults are partnering on a variety of different, um, whether policy or practice level.
So we see that, you know, across the board, particularly in Vermont, where we started and have been for a very long time.
Lindsay Lyons: I love those concrete examples and I just wanna make Space Jacoby and Ana, if you wanted to jump in on at any of those, either local or state level kind of policy projects, like any, anything to add in there?
Lindsay kind of opened it up and I wanted to like make sure you actually had space to answer.
Jacoby: Yeah. Um, I would just say that artwork would the Vermont Agency of Education and Department of Public Service School safety work. Has was the first time, um, in the United States where young people were actually asked to provide input, and that was presented in front of state, um, safety officials, including our governor.
And it was a really impactful experience being one of the young people who presented that data of over 1500 young people from around Vermont, which is a really big number for Vermont. Um, and to be able to present that and kind of be a representative of that work and carry that weight was a really humbling experience.
And to just kind of look out over all these adults in this room and be one of the few youth in the room who's actually presenting that work. Was a really interesting process and the process that we did it, you know, talking about school safety is a really hard topic. Um, and through our work in youth adult partnership, restorative practice and then trauma informed, um, practices as well, we were able to take students who didn't know each other and they, um, came in this room and shared really vulnerable stories by the end of an hour and a half meeting, which really shows that this does work.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I would just echo how powerful it was to be involved in that project. Um, it happened over the summer and so we held a number of focus groups that, and I got to facilitate a lot, a number of them. Um, so I think, and I think also like, like Jacobi and Lindsay both already mentioned, it's such. A new topic to include students on?
You know, I, I think like typically when we think about like, focus groups and the work that we do, you know, we talk a lot about like belonging, engagement, youth, adult partnership, but like school safety is like, kind of like an unprecedented, um, thing to talk about with, with students. So to be able to like facilitate and hear like firsthand, like these stories that I've never really gotten to like hear before, um, and experiences that, you know, maybe they haven't really gotten an opportunity to share before was really, really powerful.
Lindsay Lyons: Incredible. Thank you all for sharing about that. That's so inspirational to a lot of people who might not even realize that we're talking about that level of student voice and youth adult partnerships. So thank you for that. We'll do kind of an abbreviated closeout here. Um, we'll do maybe a lightning round where I'll, I'll maybe have two questions and we could each.
Answer quickly. So one thing that you would encourage adults, educators to do like today or tomorrow, once they end the episode, like what's one thing they could do to kind of put this way of being in partnership with youth into practice?
Ana: I can start. Um, I would say just to like, have kind of their own reflection on how do you see your, how do you see if you're an educator, how do you see your students? Do you see 'em just as a student or do you see 'em as a full human? And how can you, um. Work to understand that like there is much more to the teacher student relationship than just, you know, um, content or, you know, structures that, so really starting to explore like, what is it that I think about my, the young people in which I work with.
Speaker 4: Um, I think for me, we actually have a resource set up called, um, 64 Ways to Strengthen Youth Voice, and it's just a list of, um, 64, like very seemingly small, but like tangible actions that you can take, um, in school or in your daily life. So just start thinking about like. Um, now that you have a greater understanding of Del Partnership, um, how can you start to implement it and, um, infuse it into like the way that you live and the way that you engage with students?
Jacoby: I would say whatever the plan is for Wednesday, May 6th, whatever that plan is, I would. Say to rearrange your classroom and do a circle and just invite everybody and just kind of have a pulse check. It's gonna be the end of the school year. Um, and ask us for some reflection about how this went. Maybe pass out some paper so that people can jot down thoughts beforehand and come to the circle with some things to share.
But I would just really encourage that moment of reflection and empowerment of young people, because although that may seem small, it is gonna be really impactful.
Ana: Wow. And Jacoby's referencing our, maybe he already told you, but our power squared summit on May 5th.
Lindsay Lyons: Love it. Alright, last question. Where can people learn more about you as individuals and or the, maybe Lindsay, you can take the, the, the actual upper learning kind of handles or, or say.
Ana: Well, you can learn about all of us at Up for learning. Um, dot org. Dot org. Um, you can find our bios there and then, um, uh, you're welcome to reach out to us at any point. You know, they, people can sign up for our, um, biweekly newsletter. We have an Instagram that we post to regularly to showcase the work that we're doing in lots of different communities throughout the country.
And, um, yeah. And that pass over to Anna and Jacoby to add their, and so.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, my up email, all the up emails are pretty straightforward. It's just first [email protected], so on it up for learning.org. Um, I also have a LinkedIn, just Anna Linder boys. Um, but yeah, however, whatever works best.
Jacoby: Yeah, definitely. I'd say up website. Um, jacoby up for learning.org is my email.
I have a LinkedIn, which is Jacoby Soder. I think that's my LinkedIn. I'm not really sure. It's a little complicated. Um, or just kind of like tune in to like up for learnings Instagram and a lot of times you'll see us on there and we'll be talking or you'll get to see, um, the hundreds of youth that we work with too and just how they're really making impact.
Lindsay Lyons: Amazing. Thank you all so, so much for the work you do and for your time to be here today.
Jacoby: Thank you.
Ana: Thank you.