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In this solo episode, Lindsay shares a Google Doc template—the Group Implementation Coaching Call Template—designed to support teacher teams in continuing their professional development work after initial workshops. Lindsay talks about how this resource was created—key contributing people, research, and ideas—and how to practically use it in your setting.
Drawing on research that shows teachers need about 20 practice instances and ongoing coaching to master new teaching skills, Lindsay walks through a structured approach that combines asset-based thinking, equity-focused inquiry, and practical coaching moves to help educators implement pedagogical strategies effectively over time. Why? One-off workshops simply don't create meaningful change. But continuous learning and iterating with feedback from students, peers, and coaches does. This is backed up in the literature. Research from Joyce and Showers (2022) demonstrates that teachers rarely transfer newly learned skills to the classroom unless training is accompanied by coaching; the percentage of teachers who accurately use new skills jumps dramatically from 5% to between 75-90% when coaching is included. Further, teachers need approximately 20 practice instances to master a new teaching skill. This resource supports teacher teams to meet that threshold and successfully master new skills. What? Here’s a walk-through of the Group Implementation Coaching Call Template, which you can access as a free resource (link below). Step 1: Set the Foundation (meeting one) Start by identifying team and individual strengths, clarifying core values, and establishing an equity focus by naming which students are at the margins. Define what success looks, sounds, and feels like in observable terms, then co-design an inquiry question that positions teachers as learners pursuing answers alongside their students. Step 2: Build Your Coaching Bank Develop a set of coaching moves to use throughout sessions, including clarifying questions ("Can you say more about that?"), mindset shifts ("How might we think differently about this?"), prioritization prompts to address scarcity thinking ("What is most important here?"), and values alignment questions to surface competing commitments. Step 3: Start Each Session with Connection and Implementation Check Open with human connection activities like listening dyads or celebrations, then conduct an implementation check and hold each other accountable to what you said you’d do since the last meeting. It’s important to honor initial teacher reactions by exploring questions like, “What went well?” and “What surprised you?” Finally, reflect on data using "I notice, I wonder, I want to learn more about," and ask deeper questions about how instruction led to observed trends in student work. Step 4: Apply the GLEE Framework Work through each step:
Step 5: Choose Your Instructional Move Select from various instructional options and decide what you want to implement in your classes. This could be things like clarifying expectations, introducing learning tools or protocols, adapting lessons using UDL principles, creating micro-groups for differentiated support, or improving feedback systems. Always ensure the approach maintains student agency and coaches learners to use tools themselves rather than simply making tasks easier. Final Tip Prioritize getting into spaces with other educators to work together and pursue professional coaching. We need to go beyond just showing up for a PD day, but share feedback and data with other educators in a way that sparks meaningful change in our classrooms. This takes intentionality and effort… It’s worth it! Grab your copy of the Group Implementation Coaching Call Template for free, and start using it with your teaching team to bring transformation to your school. If you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 246 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Time for teachership podcast. This is episode 2 46 and we just revamped the website. So I'm gonna read directly off of our newly designed website, which you can [email protected]. One-off workshops do not create meaningful change, continuous learning and iterating with feedback from students, peers, and coaches does. So I'm gonna go in this episode through a Google Doc template I've been working on to support teacher teams to continue work after initial. Workshops on a pedagogical approach or strategy, calling these group implementation coaching sessions, and join us for this conversation. Here we go. I first wanna acknowledge all of the folks who have informed this work. So this Google Doc template has been a work in progress for a couple of years, and there are so many folks. We never do this work alone. There's so many folks who have influenced it. So one, wanna shout out the [00:01:00] PLC at work folks. So July, 2024 on our podcast, we did a mini series. On PLCs, so folks like Dr. Anthony Mohammed, Dr. Chad Dumas, super practical work of Bob Sanju, Marin Powers and Shalene Miller were super effective in helping me think about what really needs to happen. So certainly these are PLCs a little bit different from like an implementation coaching model or a more kind of informal process. They certainly, want to clarify like what exactly. PLCs are and how they are distinct from other conversations, but that was hugely impactful. Also, the Grow Model better lesson as a company introduced me to this Raman Behan, who is in episode one. The very first episode of the Time for teachership podcast has taught me a lot about. Coaching, one-on-one coaching, group coaching, coaching coaches, all sorts of things related to coaching and how to use this model and others. So that has been really helpful and I wanna shout him out specifically. The field of positive [00:02:00] psychology has been very influential in my approach as I learn even more from education scholars who talk about asset-based education as well as the values and action website, which I find a very valuable resource to think about values and values. Really how they come into play in our teacher lives and are feeling aligned to our values as we make pedagogical decisions. So you'll see that definitely in this, or you'll get that vibe. Also wanna name a few recent books that have been helpful. Street Data, as I love from doctors Shane SFI and Jamila Dugan, as well as the more recent pedagogies voice book from Dr. Shane Safier, Marla bse, Dr. Swan Jabber and Crystal Watson. Super helpful to think about things. Like just orienting to the margins to think about how we're focusing on equity. And we're centering like human connection. Also as Reta Hammond's latest book, rebuilding Students' Learning Power, teaching [00:03:00] for Instructional Equity and Cognitive Justice. I'm really giving you a reading lesson here. Has really helped me to think about things like in the looking at student work protocol I've talked about before from Desi. Questions you'll see in this are we over scaffolding? Do we wanna just try to make the task easier and thus not great appropriate? Or are we really coaching students to own the tools, use them theirselves, and really expand their own learning power? Ideally, that one. Also inquiry pedagogy, which I've really been informed by and through the investigating history curriculum out of dsi and colleagues I've worked with on that. As well as you'll see a visual of a framework, which is currently still in development, hopefully to be published in, in coming years with Car Panko and Dr. Eric Soto Shad. So with all of that, let's get right to what exactly is this template? What does it consist of? What are the different parts and the why. So here it is. The first meeting, really thinking about a couple things from the asset based [00:04:00] lens. We are thinking about identifying team strengths. We also, before any of this, I do wanna say, we also wanna get really clear on how to pronounce everyone's name and what their roles are. So there's certainly a space for that. But we wanna leverage our strengths as a team and or as individuals, right? So we wanna make sure there's space for that. We also wanna identify our values, both again, as a team or as individuals, but those things are really important and they're going to be a place we return to when we're stuck in like a challenge mode, right? We're stuck on this thing. We're in kind of scarcity mindset. How do we leverage our strengths? How do we feel aligned to our values? If we're between two decisions, how do we make sure we're aligning with the one that is values based? We also wanna hold onto equity and what I'm calling critical hope, really making sure that our focus is on the margins. So again, borrowing from street data and pedagogies of voice texts. Which students are there in the margins right now, and how do you know what information is telling you this? Getting very clear on if we are talking to anybody, we're talking to this [00:05:00] group and we're trying to seek equity and justice for this group. That is always our centerpiece. I always find it to be helpful when coaching or when thinking through decisions. To center a particular student or group of students and say, okay, what would work for them? Or Let's get really specific, yes, maybe this is the skill the class needs to grow, but what about this group? How do they need to grow it? In what ways do they have strengths? Or what way does this specific student have strengths that can be leveraged in growing that skill? It's super helpful to get very clear, and so to name the margins is really important. Also, in the line of critical hope, thinking about the dream, so drawing on freedom, dreaming, and other things. We talk about all the time on the podcast. Getting really clear on the observable criteria and using that then as a metric for success as we move forward. So what does success, I would argue look slash sound, but also feel like what does it feel like to be in your classroom? What does success look, sound, feel like? Get really clear on that and think about the ways to measure that, and that'll be an ongoing conversation. And [00:06:00] finally really thinking about inquiry and evidence. My social studies, teacher and coach mindset hat is on here where we think about, let's co-design an inquiry question. This also comes out of pedagogies of voice, right? What is the thing we want to pursue and learn more about? Just even that language really centers the learning process here as opposed to. The traditional way of thinking about teachers as having all of the answers right, or that there is one right way or that the right way comes from a particular place such as peer-reviewed journals versus co-constructed informed by peer-reviewed journals, certainly, but also co-constructed with the kids in your class, right? And so again, that kind of points to the evidence. So what information will we gather to learn more? Certainly. Things like research, also things like, let's ask the kids in the class, right? So thinking about inquiry and evidence is a final piece. This is really meeting one. And so meeting one is setting the stage, right? We're defining all of those assets. We're thinking about. Who we are as a team, what we [00:07:00] believe in, what we're out to do. And then there is a coaching bank, both for that meeting and future meetings that I put in just for my own self. I like to have a little coaching bank. You can certainly remove this from the template and have it as a one-pager or something and a physical copy, move it into a separate doc, whatever you'd like. If you wanna, make your coaching doc public to the group. But I like to think about some coaching moves that are maybe hard for me to remember in the moment. Or the languaging around the coaching move is hard. Certainly build your own here, add to this list, adjust as needed. But I think one thing that's been helpful for me as a coach is to clarify. So an example is like someone says, oh, students aren't really good at this thing. Or, I've tried this and students responded this way. It didn't work right? And so my follow up there is to get clear on what's going on. I might say something like, can you say more about that? Or share an example. Like basically, how do you know? Let's get to the evidence, and what I find is that anytime we share an example, we get really concrete, [00:08:00] then I'm able to coach better. Often we have peer coaching because this is a group coaching situation. We have peer coaching, tapping in. I recently did this in a workshop with about 10 educators in person. And it just like the example grew into a 10 minute conversation with minute, like detailed feedback from way more people than just myself, right? Three or four, five people jumped in to offer clarifying questions and we just got really into it and it was so much more fruitful than leaving it at oh, this is a hard thing. How do I respond to this, right? Because that's so vague that it's really hard to coach on and it doesn't illuminate the problem in the same way for that person to ask the question or made the comment about the challenge or anyone else in the group, right? We wanna get clarity as often as possible. So can you say more about that? We share an example is a good, for me, a good go-to the next thing is sometimes we're in a mindset that just is looking at a problem, maybe in a deficit way, maybe in just [00:09:00] like a. A way that doesn't feel productive or like we've gone around a bunch of times with ideas that haven't worked. Maybe we've tried a bunch of pedagogical moves and we're getting the same result and we're just feeling stuck. We might need to shift mindsets. So it might be, how might we think differently about this? So one thing that I've seen particularly in inquiry pedagogy, is. A frustration with students not having specific information about the time period of study in a history class, for example, or the people being studied, right? And so the concern is if students don't have any quote, background knowledge on this topic, they're not able to engage in inquiry. They're not able to have questions that are thoughtful or anything like this. And so one fellow coach who also coaches on an inquiry curriculum that I coach on. Just said this and I wrote it down because I was like, this is so good. Curiosity and inquiry pedagogy is more [00:10:00] valuable than background knowledge. And so just being able to offer that as a reframe. So it might be a coaching question, like, how might we think about this differently? But it also might be like, let's pause to think about the values or the priorities of inquiry pedagogy. Like what skill is more important? Is it more important that they have memorized a bunch of information that they can recall? Is it more important that they are curious and they nurture that skill? Ideally we have both, right? But to say curiosity is more valuable than background knowledge. I think it's a really helpful reframe where we might have gotten stuck, but if we have this shift, then it's okay, then knowing that, how do we amplify curiosity? Now we're going in a different direction. We're not even trying necessarily to increase background knowledge, quote unquote. We are actually trying to do something different. Which is to value affirm and encourage more curiosity, which is actually a completely different thing, right? So it just really shifts mindsets [00:11:00] and directions. Relatedly, I think one of the most common mindsets that we can get stuck in is this scarcity. One. We just never have enough time as teachers. That is so true. The response to this, or the best response that I coach myself on all the time is a prioritization game, right? Like it's not about not having enough time, no one has enough time. It's about how are we using the time that we have. So the question that's in response to the scarcity based comment is what is most important here, right? If you only have 30 minutes to teach this lesson, if you only have, however long to do X thing, what is most important? And that could be what is the most important skill? What is the most important content? What is the most important way that you're making a kid feel? What is the most important based on like your vision of success that we defined at the outset? It could be a lot of things, right? But. Shifting from scarcity to prioritization as a mindset here can be really powerful. And the final coaching move I added and again, by the time you check this [00:12:00] out, it may be different. I may be adapting or adding as we go. 'cause nothing is ever set in stone, right? We're constantly learning and evolving. But the last one currently, as I record this, is aligning to values. So you could also use this to address scarcity and prioritization, but with which value or values is this pedagogy or this use of time most aligned. So often in adaptive challenges when we're finding ourselves stuck in a long period of time, we try different things. It's not working. What we can do is actually take a step back and say, okay, it seems like we might have some competing commitments here. I believe and want to, encourage students to have more agency. I know they can. I believe in them and I want this, like this is a core value for me is like teacher as coach or student agency, whatever the thing is. That is one of my core values. Or maybe it's, transparency. I wanna be really honest and clear with students. I wanna give them really clear feedback. However to use time, again, time is [00:13:00] a constraint or we have a curriculum that is set by the district and we need to teach that. So I don't have as much freedom to give students agency, right? Whatever the thing is, we are I imposed upon whether it is a time restriction, a curriculum restriction, and we are finding perhaps that it's not really what we want. We want this thing. And we're being told to do this other thing, and sometimes those feel conflicting. And so just naming the competing commitment or kind of the value that you think is displayed by your current use of time or the current pedagogical move and like what you actually value, sometimes it takes that deeper conversation to unearth oh, I've been saying I'm all about student agency and yet. This is how I've been doing my lessons. I have been saying, talking at the kids and then asking them to do a multiple choice quiz, and then that's how I assess them and then we move on, right? Versus, oh, I actually, when I became a teacher, I really wanted student, an agency, and I wanna be able to invite them to, share in these multitude of ways using [00:14:00] multiple means of expression based on UDL. But all I'm asking them to do is this one thing that the curriculum says can I, for example, in that scenario. Adapt or give multiple means of expression that answer the same question, but adapt the format to be student selected. Still assessing the same skills and content knowledge, but enabling a wider range of options, right? Are there ways that we can align more closely to our values? 'cause we're not gonna feel good if we're not values aligned in our teaching and in our pedagogy. Okay, so that's the first meeting, the coaching moves that can be used in any meeting. And then I wanna say after meeting one here is how I would structure this or have been trying to structure these things. One is to start with human connection. Pedagogies of voice really reminded me of this. You might have a listening dyad, you might have a group check-in. You might have celebrations. I know the PLC at work. Folks are really good about naming celebrations as an opening. Again, asset based positive psychology. Let's bring it all in. And then we go to an implementation [00:15:00] check. So you may name this thing different, but basically a reminder that last time. We said we were gonna try this thing, we were gonna gather this piece of data. Was it assessment data? Was it experiential student report data? Was it both from, X assessment or these particular students or from this survey, right? Whatever modality we're using. And then it structured it into three groups. I think there's three containers for this. One is let's honor the initial teacher reactions and your teachers best. So there may be. Some moments where this doesn't quite work as well. Maybe if you open it up it you'll, it'll be really hard to get back to data. So maybe you start with data, but I think for a lot of groups I work with, it's nice to be able to honor like, what are your initial responses? And so I'm pulling from Dr. Frederick Buskey actually and has brilliant daughter Mara, who do a five minute coaching around three questions. I've reduced those to two here. Because I think we get to the third and then other parts, but what went well, again, asset based and what surprised you. This [00:16:00] question itself is surprising and I think jogs us out of the typical glows and grows yeah, what was surprising and then what I read into that is like basically what did I learn, right? 'cause when you are surprised, you then have to, you have this like disorienting dilemma. I thought this, but actually this happened. And then you have to make sense of that. So you are learning in that process. So it invites you to think about what you've learned. Then I think reflect on the data. I like using something I've adapted from Panorama education. I notice, I wonder and I want to learn more about, so notice exactly what the data says. If a student said this particular quote in response to the lesson and they thought you should do this differently. I notice quote, blah, blah, blah. I notice X amount of students that you know how to do this. Okay. And then I wonder, I like here to encourage yourself to think about, or the teachers to think about three possible reasons why I wonder if this comes from X or this student said this because of y or this, [00:17:00] trend in student data this. Area for growth that I've noticed comes from my pedagogical move here, right? Try to think about maybe the, why some of the noticings are happening and then I want to learn more about situates you firmly in the curiosity and learner stance. What information or perspectives are missing from the data you have as a nice kind of corollary question here. So basically, yeah, I wanna learn more about this thing and thinking about where I'm gonna go seek it out. Where am I gonna go from more information to learn that thing? As in deeper reflection questions here that are pulled from Desi's looking at student work protocol that I really enjoy. So one, if you didn't get to it in the kind of the possible reasons why I wonder section above it would be how did our instruction lead to the trends we saw in student work? So again, putting the locus of control back on the teacher. We are thinking about what we can do as professionals, as educators, right? To help students. So think about how did my instruction impact the thing I noticed [00:18:00] in the data? And relatedly, how did the use of scaffolds that I put into that lesson, or maybe that already existed in that lesson, impact students' thinking and learning. So we're interrogating some of that. And I labeled this next question a gut check, but to what extent do you feel like you're wanting to make the task. Easier, like less hard below grade standards versus identifying tools and changes in pedagogy that would support all students in demonstrating mastery of a grade level task. I think that is the gut check. If we are defaulting to. Oh, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna make it easier. I'm gonna add more sentence strips. I'm gonna, whatever. Versus coaching students to use particular learner moves, right? I'm thinking of Zaretta Hammond here and the five Learn to Learn skills or changing my way of interacting with students, or my way of structuring the lesson. Like then we're not really gonna get very far right, and we wanna do that gut check to make sure that what we land on here before moving to the next piece [00:19:00] where we're gonna land on an action step is rooted in like good stuff. Wanting students to be better learners and engaging with appropriately challenging grade level text. And me as an instructor being really the coach. So for the remainder of the meeting, this could be 30 minutes. It depends on how much time you have with teachers. I'm assuming around 60, some have 45, some have 75 around 60, so 30 minutes left or 25 minutes left. I should say. If you did a five minute check-in, if you have an adaptation of what I would say is the grow model, that's how I initially started with this. I'm calling this glee at the moment. So goal learn, explore expectations. So what's the goal? What learning experiences do you hope to foster before our next session is a question that comes out of pedagogies of voice I believe, and then thinking about I might have a lens toward the content. I might have a lens toward the skill. I might have a lens toward how I want students to feel. Ideally, I'm thinking a little bit of all of this, right? But like we just looked at the [00:20:00] data. We just noticed some things and we're curious about, right? We have an inquiry pursuit here. We have our larger inquiry question for the year, but we also said, ah, I looked at this data and I wanna know about this thing. So now what are we trying to learn about? What are we hoping to foster? I think you can change up the question. I'll probably play with that question for a bit, but considering content skills into feelings. What's the thing we wanna pursue before our next session? So again, returning to that learn like what did we learn from the data? So let's get clear on like the assessment data. What are the student strengths and areas for growth? What's like the biggest leverage points here for growth? And how can we leverage strengths in pursuit of that area of growth? And then what are our students actually saying? So what is the feedback that we got from them? Did we even ask them? And which students are we asking and hearing from. And then we move to explore. So this is usually gonna be the bulk of this second chunk or this, 25 minute chunk. What instructional move could we use to grow the identified skill and at the same time [00:21:00] enable student agency, right? We don't wanna lose that student centered learning agency. We want to grow the skill because we're coaching students to learn better, right? And so some options, there's like a bullet point kind of choice list here on the template. It could be that you're just saying, Hey, you know what? Actually my expectations were just not clear. If we're talking about a behavioral issue, for example, we might say I was just not at all clear that I wanted this to be done in this way, or that our class discussion norms were never established at the beginning of the year. So of course that student was like talking over that other student, and that was rude, right? Because we didn't have the conversation. So we need to actually as a class, co-create discussion agreements, or we need to clarify expectations in some way. It could be that you wanna introduce or use a learning tool. This could be a protocol. Okay, I had an open class discussion, didn't have a discussion protocol. Kids were talking all over the place, or I only heard from four students that were the loudest. Next time I'm gonna introduce a discussion protocol. Or maybe I had a bunch of students who were quiet 'cause I'm not sure that [00:22:00] they. Fully went through the information processing cycles. I'm gonna use some of Zuta Hammond stuff to coach on these. Learn to learn skills and introduce tools to them that can help their information processing so they're ready to go next time. Another option could be to adapt or design for engagement, representation or expression a link in the template to UDL here. And so there are so many examples. It is overwhelming, but if you zoom into one of those engagement, representation or expression. You can do what we named earlier in the episode where we're trying to, for example, open it up to multiple formats for ways to demonstrate your understanding of the content or your proficiency with a skill. That's an adaptation of a lesson if you have a set curriculum or maybe you're designing, if you're creating your own curriculum it could be that you want to micro groups. So you notice some trends in the data. Certain groups have have some strengths, right? You can break the student groups or the class, excuse me, into these little groups where this group needs. This intervention with this particular [00:23:00] skill, this group actually got all of it and they need an extension, right? Whatever the thing is, it's like a micro MTSS system here. Or it could be that you want to think about how you're providing feedback to students. And so maybe what it is like you came up with all this great data and you're like, wow, actually I don't know how I'm gonna get that to students. I don't have a process in place to let them know what I just learned through this deep data dive in our group implementation coaching session. I need a better system for providing specific, timely asset-based feedback to my students, and I'm gonna figure that out in order to make that my next move. So that students, again, have the agency to get the feedback quickly, specifically, and then they choose what their next step is, which is reminiscent of my conversation with Dr. Al Annoy, who says, the students are the ones that take the next steps. We don't, as the teacher give them the next steps. We give them feedback, and we facilitate kind of their information gathering so that they can choose as writers. In his case, you know what to do next. Finally we have the last [00:24:00] piece, which is setting the expectation for next time. So what will we try as a group? Are we all doing the same thing? Are there some teachers wanting to try one thing, some trying another? This may vary. I don't have a set opinion on this. I think there are great ways, great ideas doing both. But then we wanna know how we're gonna learn from it, right? You're gonna try the thing before next session when we meet in two weeks or four weeks, whenever the time is. So what are we doing? Getting really clear who is doing it and what data are we gathering so that we can learn and we're committing to bringing that back in the next session. So that was a lot. You can certainly if you were driving, running, or otherwise occupied while listening no need to have taken notes. You can certainly grab this free resource at lindsay bethle.com/blog/ 2 4 6. And as a final thought, I'm gonna return to what we said at the opening of the episode. Research from Joyce and Showers 2022 shows that on average, teachers need about 20 practice instances to master a new [00:25:00] teaching skill. And so their research actually shows teachers rarely transfer newly learned skills to the classroom unless training is accompanied by coaching. The percentage of teachers who accurately use new skills jumps from 5%. To anywhere between 75 and 90% when coaching is included. That is wild. Such a important component of professional learning that often doesn't get as much I don't know, financial commitment perhaps, or just like thought time than the typical show up in person PD for a PD day. I urge us to find small ways. Peer coaching or otherwise, that we get teachers in spaces with other educators and get some feedback and get some shared data assessment practices or protocols in place so that we can then make decisions about what action we're gonna take. That is informed by the brilliance of the group and the great [00:26:00] resources available to us in this wonderful age of education, research, and the internet. Until next time, everybody have a wonderful day. Think big, act brave, and be your best self.
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In this episode, we chat with Dr. Jacobē Bell, an instructional coach, researcher, and author. She shares powerful insights on humanizing instructional coaching through authentic relationships and practical strategies.
Dr. Bell emphasizes the importance of shifting from teacher-centered to systems-level thinking, maintaining genuine care for educator wellbeing, and surfacing and addressing teacher beliefs through curiosity-driven conversations. This episode is full of practical advice and insights for instructional coaches. The Big Dream Dr. Bell envisions a world where coaches and educators experience genuine wellness and contentment in their daily work, free from initiative fatigue. She dreams of all coaches embodying a humanizing approach that centers educators as co-producers of knowledge in coaching conversations—empowering teachers to draw on their own experiences and expertise in ways that support both their continual growth and their wellbeing. Mindset Shifts Required The shift from teaching to coaching requires seeing the system differently: understanding how individual teachers fit into larger grade teams and the school ecosystem. Coaches must accept that they cannot make everyone happy with every decision, releasing the need to be universally loved while keeping student outcomes central. This involves applying the improvement processes teachers naturally use in classrooms to facilitate meaningful professional learning with teams of adults. Coaches must also learn to navigate the intersection of their own values with other adults' beliefs about students, instruction, and equity. Action Steps As Dr. Bell has coached teachers—and coached coaches to coach teachers—here are action steps she’s found useful that can be applied in your own context: Step 1: Have explicit conversations about preferences for live coaching, feedback delivery, and even logistics like whether to greet them when entering mid-lesson. Step 2: Structure coaching visits in three parts when possible: pre-planning (identifying issues and establishing look-fors), micro-modeling (demonstrating a 15-20 minute lesson segment while narrating your moves), and immediate teacher practice (breaking teachers into small groups to try the strategy with students while you provide real-time feedback) Step 3: Approach conversations with genuine curiosity about what shifted and when, assuming the best intentions while creating space for honest dialogue about the whole person—not just the practitioner. Challenges? Coaches are navigating both instructional improvement and the emotional well-being of teachers… Diverse teachers who all communicate and want to be coached in different ways! This can be tough to navigate, as can the “initiative fatigue” teachers often feel, which may create resistance to yet another change. Further, a difficult challenge is addressing deeply held beliefs about student ability and instructional practices, particularly when those beliefs conflict with equity-focused coaching goals. One Step to Get Started Find your authentic coaching voice by reflecting on your unique personality and strengths rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all coaching formula. Start by genuinely asking teachers their opinions about their practice and truly listening to their responses—not as a checkbox in a coaching protocol, but as a foundation for building the rapport, relationships, and authenticity that undergird all effective coaching work. This human-centered approach creates the conditions for everything else to follow. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on LinkedIn to stay connected. www.equityconsulting.org and Instagram @centeringmyjoy. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing a reproducible “Recognizing The Hidden Curriculum” with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 245 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Jacobi Bell, welcome back to the time for teachership podcast. Lindsay Lyons: Thanks for having me again. I'm super excited to be here. Lindsay Lyons: I'm excited because there are so many elements of the book that we talked about, and we can link to that in the, um, show notes as well for this episode. But there's so many elements of your coaching strategy and approach, and even like snippets of the conversations that you've had with teachers as a coach that are. Lindsay Lyons: Just so good. And as myself, as a coach, I'm constantly trying to learn and grow, and this is something that I think a lot of teachers kind of get slotted into this position of instructional coach 'cause they're great teachers and it's like. Well, where's the professional learning for coaching? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yeah. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Sometimes it's like baptism by fire. Lindsay Lyons: That's right. And so it's like, you know, where, what I think we're trying to do and where this episode will air is kind of part of a mini series on instructional coaching and some ideas for instructional coaches to really be supported and grow in that [00:01:00] position. And so I guess the first question is. Lindsay Lyons: What should people kind of keep in mind or what are you bringing in mind to the table, um, to, to this conversation? I mean, uh, as we kind of think about this topic, I know you've shared more about yourself in a previous podcast episode, so feel free to bring that in, but also like as an instructional coaches or anything else we should know, Dr. Jacobe Bell: uh, sure. Dr. Jacobe Bell: The last seven years I've been. Coaching instructional coaches, um, which is something that I take a lot of joy in. Um, and I also have been instructional coaches in both public schools, um, private charter prior to that. Um, and from each setting I gained kind of like different techniques or approaches. Dr. Jacobe Bell: 'cause each setting was like uniquely. Different, you know, so, but all those things [00:02:00] kind of shape me and what I'm bringing to this conversation today. Um, Lindsay Lyons: thank you for sharing that. And you're right, the context totally does matter. So that's an important thing to note. Um, I, before I asked you about your Freedom Dream, so feel free to bring any part of that in here as well, but I am, I'm also curious, I know you had a beautiful chapter, um, on a Afrofuturism in your book that we talked about, and I think. Lindsay Lyons: I, I wonder, I guess if, does, is there any sort of like a afrofuturist dreaming that is part of your definition of like instructional coaching specifically? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Ooh, that's a great question. I don't think I've been asked that. So I think right now is a hard time for educators more generally, um, with. Ever increasing demands, accountability, you know, all the things. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And as coaches we often navigate, yes, the instructional piece, but then we also [00:03:00] have to navigate everything. That's not the instructional piece as well. Like the emotional, like, are you okay today? Like how are you? Um, genuinely. 'cause depending on where you're at, our coaching conversation can need or need to look. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, slightly different. Um, but also what I see is because there's so many like initiatives on top of initiatives, a lot of educators experience like initiative fatigue sometimes. And so when I think about Afrofuturism and freedom dreaming, I think about a world in which. Coaches, um, and educators, um, have a sense of wellness, um, and a sense of contentment in their day-to-day work. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And I think about as coaches specifically, [00:04:00] um, like this dream that all coaches that we would embody, like a humanizing approach to coaching. It was like a big spectrum of, you know, what coaching can look like, student outcome driven, relational driven, uh, you know, professional learning, PD driven, like, et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And they all, some are more effective than others, you know, um, but also dreaming about centering educators in this process because they also come with knowledge and experiences and how do we empower. Them to be like co-producers of knowledge in the coaching conversations, um, in ways that work for both them, um, and their continual growth, um, and in ways that like maintain their wellbeing. Dr. Jacobe Bell: 'cause right now, I, I, I do think it's hard out there. [00:05:00] Lindsay Lyons: Oh, that's so, that's so great because it really encompasses, again, the context of like, where, where are people, what are we asking of people? What do we not ask? Like how are you, I mean, all of it. Um, I, I love that you got at the different approaches, right? Lindsay Lyons: And that some are more effective than others. And I, I also am thinking about. You know, just even when you said co-producers of knowledge in a coaching conversation, I'm like, oh, right. Because I think about that in terms of the co-producers of knowledge being students in a classroom from the student lens or from the teacher lens. Lindsay Lyons: And now I'm a coach thinking, okay, right. That totally is relevant for the coaching teacher dynamic. And so now I'm thinking about are there. Mindset shifts that are necessary to transition kind of from that teacher mentality to a coaching mentality? Or is it really similar and that we should treat students very similarly to, to teachers? Dr. Jacobe Bell: I see it similar and different [00:06:00] at the same time. Um, I think the switch to coaching from teaching. I had to see the system a little bit differently, and I had to see how like individual teachers play into a larger grade team or play into a larger like school ecosystem. I had to put on my hat, like, especially when I first started coaching, I was coaching former peers, you know, like former teachers that I taught with, et cetera. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and I had to like. Do this dance. And I had to actually learn as a leader as well, that with every decision you make, you can't a hundred percent make everybody happy. And you can't a hundred percent make everybody love you, right? Like yeah, it's human nature to wanna be loved and like people think you're the greatest, right? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and I had to kind of look [00:07:00] in the mirror and realize that. You know, when I look at the whole ecosystem and what's working and not working for kids, kind of what needs to shift. Um, and so that's something I had to kind of change. I also had to. Think about how do I systematically lean into improvement? Dr. Jacobe Bell: I think as teachers we do it kind of unconsciously. Like, oh, I'm gonna try this thing, see how it works. Then based upon how it goes, I'm gonna adjust it. Or you know, we kind of just unconsciously do that improvement process. And it's similar as a coach. Um, but I think. If you're professional dev, um, doing PD in a, like a team setting now it's like applying that same process that you might not even be self-aware that you were doing as a teacher, but then how do you kind of facilitate that process with a team of adults in a way that feels meaningful to every single person there? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and that every single person feels heard. Um. And has [00:08:00] like clear things they're excited to take away. So it's like there is overlap in some of it. I think also thinking about how values and belief systems is different when you're like in your classroom. Um, but then also like when coaching you come up against other people's values and beliefs of other adults, you know, what they think about kids, um, how they see a situation and how you may see a situation slightly differently. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Right? Um, and so I think, I know when I a coach, that's one thing I had to kind of. Shift a little bit is like if we're saying that every kid every day deserves strong instruction, strong instructional materials in front of them. Um, and as we know, students come in at a lot of different entry points. Um.[00:09:00] Dr. Jacobe Bell: What does it look like to like, meet their needs in ways, um, while also balancing like teachers' beliefs? Um, yeah. I could go on, but I'll stop there. Lindsay Lyons: No, I, I love that because I, I'm thinking about the beliefs and, and some of the kind of coaching conversations that I was reading that you have had with teachers just from the book. Lindsay Lyons: And I'm curious, what is like, as we think about the kind of a toolkit of instructional coaches or like kind of an approach that you would take as an instructional coach, what are kind of the action steps that you have found to be helpful for coaching teachers or like coaching coaches to coach teachers, both from the sense of like. Lindsay Lyons: Broad kind of you, you mentioned like looking in the mirror and just having this kind of moment of, you know, I need, I realize I need to do this, or I realize that this is important and, and also I'm thinking about what stood out to me. Were some, even at the very specific level, some of the questions stems or the types of [00:10:00] questions that you asked that get at those beliefs and allow you to surface them and raise them in conversations. Lindsay Lyons: Even though it's probably uncomfortable for everyone, like they have to come up and we have to get after that conversation and so. I'm curious from just like a professional learning for coaches approach, I guess, like what are those things, both big or small, whatever feels best to start with, that you would recommend for coaches to, to consider in those teacher coach relationships? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yeah. I think a lot of times, like how one can perceive a kid, a situation, a practice, um, can be shifted when people can see it like tangibly. Um, and so one of my favorite ways to coach, I used to like put a name to it or something, or write about it or something because I don't have like a juicy way to explain it kind of. Dr. Jacobe Bell: But, um. Is essentially [00:11:00] like a micro model, right? Like so often sometimes as coaches will like model a whole lesson and yeah, that has its place, but sometimes I find it even more effective to do a micro model for like a shorter period of time. And then after that micro model, have coach, um, have teachers like repeat it with smaller groups of students within that same period as you give them feedback. Dr. Jacobe Bell: So, for example, yesterday I was in a school, um, and one of the coaches I coach was like implementing this, I don't know, protocol strategy. Um, and she did it so beautifully. I was like, yay, I love when these things work out. Um, but she was like, there were some beliefs about like certain kids being low, um, or more difficult. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and like. Not participating in the phonics lesson, et cetera. And so the coach [00:12:00] modeled, um, like the 20 minute lesson, and then there were four teachers. Actually five that were like observing and they had, um, look fors to kind of pay attention to her teacher moves and then student reactions or actions. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And then, um, teachers were broken up into five groups and they knew this prior to going into the classroom, right? Like we had a pre-planning conversations with them that morning. So when we came back later that day, they kind of knew what to expect. Um, but then afterwards they were broken up into five groups and each. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Teacher was at a table with like five, six kids and then they repeated the lesson, but with different letters. So they were able to implement like the methodology that they saw her do. They were, um, able to implement like the rhyming cadence of like the letters that make it catchy and help with engagement strategies. Dr. Jacobe Bell: They were able to start with like. Starting with whole class drilling in when you [00:13:00] hear the misconception and saying, you know, so and so, let me hear you, you know, and then going back out, um, for sitting on here over on the side, let me hear you. Like, uh, and so it was, she implemented it beautifully. Um, so then teachers were able to implement it in their groups, and then we popped around from group to group to give teachers. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Feedback in the moment on how well, but it was great 'cause you saw them, like they just saw it, they're implementing it. Um, and that's one of my favorite strategies. And then as you're doing that, narrating what you're doing. So if I'm the coach being like, you know, teachers notice how IX, Y, and Z and then do it. Dr. Jacobe Bell: So you're like kind of narrating the things that you wanna point their eyes to as you're doing the micro model. Um, the beautiful thing about this strategy is that Dr. Jacobe Bell: it, well, one, if I think [00:14:00] about yesterday, like the teacher who'd been like, oh wow, this is hard. This student, you know, um, it's hard to collect data. And then these students are like ones that are a little harder. Every single one of like the four or five names that were given about harder students. Were able to get it, and they were able, when called on to say it, you know, and it might not have been perfectly the first time, but then the second or third time they had it, and it was like a beautiful like moment of like shifting the, the mindset of like, oh, they can do it, you know, um, but how do I give them better access points to do? Dr. Jacobe Bell: So, um, so that was one in terms of by seeing it, it like shifted mindsets and then two, by actually applying it right then and there. You don't have to wait a week later or two weeks later when the coach comes again to kind of try it out. It's like you're gonna get immediate feedback as you try it then. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, so that's one of my favorite, my favorite strategies. Um, and then at then afterwards of course [00:15:00] you debrief with the teacher team on what went well. What were your takeaways? Feedback from me and my micro model, you know, like, um, so that's one of my favorites. Lindsay Lyons: I love that so much. I'm so curious. So logistically, when does this happen? Lindsay Lyons: Is this like a PD time where you get the teachers and then you invite the students in? Or is this like class time where there's already students there? And you just have teachers come into one teacher's room? Dr. Jacobe Bell: I've done it both. Um, ideally my favorite way is to do it with actual students in the class structure. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and usually we rotate. So let's say there's maybe three teachers on the team. One teacher will start being in the classroom with the micro model, et cetera. Then the next visit, maybe it's somebody else. Um, but you're still building on knowledge and skill even though the classroom of students may be changing 'cause you're gonna try it and. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Multiple teachers' classrooms if you're able to. Sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes we do it in one teacher's, we get it and we kind of go on to the next part of the coaching cycle. Um, [00:16:00] and usually, ideally it would take three periods in the day. I know schools don't always have those three periods to free up teachers. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and so usually it would look like a pre-planning of like, oh, you know, this is what we noticed. Here are our look fors. Anything missing from our look fors. Um, you know, who do we wanna. And then talking about like the issues that are happening and then how you're gonna try to address those issues. So teachers talk about like pacing. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Okay. So, and all the issues they're naming, trying to like tuck those in your micro model. Um, so that when they go in, you kind of, they, their eye is kind of honed to it. And then the period of the micro model and then them trying it, and then the debrief on the. End. Um, and the debrief isn't, it depends. Dr. Jacobe Bell: I've seen it done in 20 minutes, you know, 'cause that's all you had. Um, I've seen it done in a period I, in terms of the pre-planning, I've seen that like happen in like a quick [00:17:00] 15 minutes. Like, let's huddle you, or honestly, I've seen it happen in like three minutes where it's like there's no. There was no pre-planning, but things and templates were sent out via email or the prior visit. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And with the understanding, like on my next visit, this is what we're gonna do. And then you like go in, give kids a big juicy question about like, oh, tell me the most exciting thing about your weekend. You got two minutes to turn and talk. And they're like, okay, teachers, let's huddle really quick. And then you go through the plan and then you bring it back and then you actually like start the micro model. Dr. Jacobe Bell: So it's. You know, we live in the land of flexibility. 'cause schools are all different. Different, you know. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. Thank you for laying that out. Both like the whole, the whole cycle of, of the day, but also, um, just logistically how to make that possible and, and also recognizing the, the constraints that I think some instructional coaches may be listening and being like, Hmm, I don't know if I can make that happen, but here's what you can do. Lindsay Lyons: Love it. Super practical. And I, I'm also wondering, so the values. Piece, like surfacing values is like really, [00:18:00] really interesting to me. And also I think a really hard thing to be able to do. And I'm also recognizing, so in this situation, in this approach, you were talking about, um, having a team of coaches. Lindsay Lyons: So you're coaching a team together. Then I'm also thinking about like a one-on-one dynamic. So you have one teacher and one coach who's maybe like debriefing a lesson or, um, confronted with maybe like. Something that the coach or the teacher says in that conversation, and now we wanna like unearth or dig into it a little bit. Lindsay Lyons: Like, oh, you mentioned like you're struggling with, with some students, or, or they're not getting it. Like, let's dig into like what language you use or anything like that and like kind of uncover the values there. Um, I'm curious in general of kind of what your approach is to situations like that. Both. Lindsay Lyons: And I guess does it depend on the one-on-one? Does it depend if you're in a small team, like how you approach it? Um, yeah. Any tips for all of us on that? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yes. This is. Also living in the land of flexibility because it, it depends so much on the context, the teacher, [00:19:00] the, um, whatever. But I'll share a couple of the strategies that come to me offhand. Dr. Jacobe Bell: One is sometimes just saying it back to them, um, and seeing how they respond. You know, like, oh, so I'm hearing you say that X, Y, Z. And then giving them a chance to respond. You know, and sometimes they clarify in ways that you're like, oh, I get it. And sometimes it's um, you know, a different value relief, um, belief, um, especially about like kid ability sometimes. Dr. Jacobe Bell: It's like, oh, well can you tell me more about that? Um, sometimes I blame my coaching, um, as a way to lower the effective filter of like, you know, I know we've been working together a couple months. Um, we've modeled and some planning, yada, yada. Um, and I'm still seeing like our. Our co-constructed look fors, um, for [00:20:00] instruction and student engagement aren't quite where we want them to be. Dr. Jacobe Bell: I'm wondering if there's something I'm doing or not doing as a coach, um, that's, you know, impeding you meeting these goals. Um, so I've done that quite a few times because it like opens the conversation in a way that. It is making it about you, the coach, like, am I, what am I doing or not doing? You know, because this is not working. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, and I find that has been, um, pretty effective, um, in some of my tough, tough coaching conversations. Sometimes I feel like honesty, I'm one of those people that I am a pretty direct person. Um, but I try to find ways to say it. Um, and ways that people can receive it. So, um, I was working with this teacher, I think for two years, one-on-one coaching, and, um,[00:21:00] Dr. Jacobe Bell: um, it wasn't, it wasn't working, um, and it didn't seem like the teacher was really in it anymore. Um, so one of the coaching conversations like, you know, I, I kind of told her like, you know, I hope you can hear my heart on this. Like, I notice that, you know, oftentimes you seem checked out or, um, you know, not all in on teaching or, you know, planning for your lessons, et cetera. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Like, I know you've been at this a really long time. Um. I know, you know, you haven't moved this way for your last 18 years of teaching. Um, so I'm curious of like, what shifted and when did that shift or how did that happen? Um, [00:22:00] and that honestly opened up a really beautiful conversation, um, for us to talk about practice support. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And just like vulnerability and seeing, like she had a lot of things on her plate personally and just like, you know, like to see the whole person, you know? And then it comes from a place of like assuming the best versus the like, you know, the opposite. Lindsay Lyons: I love that because there's this validation that I think a lot of people in teaching in general just need. Lindsay Lyons: It's just like I need to, especially veteran teachers who have been in it for so long, like, I need this wisdom to be worth something like this time investment to be worth something. As you're validating that, and then also just love the approach of like, I hope you can hear my heart. That's just, that's so. Lindsay Lyons: I just love that that's such a human thing to say and feel and, and be present as well as like the curiosity. I think that's constantly, the thing I wanna get better at is like, how do we just stay curious and. [00:23:00] Approach it with like, I'm, I really wanna know, like I wanna know so I can help you. And I wanna, like you said, kind of as assume that your intentions are good, you wanna be a great teacher, and like, let's figure this out. Lindsay Lyons: I love that that worked and I just love all of those hallmarks of good teaching in, in the good coaching conversation as well. That's so good. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yeah. And you know, I'm glad you named Curiosity because that also works within the moment coaching as well. So like sometimes when doing live coaching, there's been times where like. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, maybe a, um, something that was said is like quite not quite right, right? Like, I was in a classroom where, um, they were reading a Jacqueline Woodson book, I forget which one it is. Um, but, and then they were reading nonfiction to give context, et cetera. Um, and the teacher as teaching, um, oh, in the book, um, a black Boy is killed for having a, um. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Uh, fake gun, right? And, um, [00:24:00] the teacher said something about like, black boys, um, are bigger than white boys. And that's why like police thought that he was whatever, whatever. Um, so I just raised my hand and I was like, oh, you know, Mr. So and so are black boys, really bigger than white boys, you know, and then just kind of. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Let that conversation happen. Um, I will say with live coaching though, I, I didn't do that the first time I met the teacher. Right? Like, I developed a rapport. We talked about how do you like to be coached? What does side by side or live coaching look like? Um, and what are the norms you wanna have, right? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Like there's some teachers might walk in their room, they're like, don't talk to me if I'm in the middle of a lesson. Just kind of come in and like, whatever. And then there's other teachers I've had like. Be like, that was so rude. You walked in and didn't say hello. And I'm like, I'm sorry. You know? So now I've learned to kind of ask like, how would you [00:25:00] like to engage? Dr. Jacobe Bell: You know, if I'm walking in mid period or, you know, um, but yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Wow. Good on you to, to raise your hand and say that. That is brilliant. I wouldn't have thought of that. That's so good. Oh my gosh. Um, I feel like we can talk all day long of realizing that we're getting to the 30 minute mark. I don't know how that happens. Lindsay Lyons: Uh. I'm curious, is there like a particular thing that you find as a nice, like I can implement it right away tomorrow kind of strategy? I mean the, I think the questioning is, I also think it may be like, as you were saying, I was like, oh, right. That would, that would not come to me automatically. So is there, um, something that people can start to try to do, like maybe it's fine to spot for the question as, as opposed to like craft a brilliant question, but like, what's the starter step? Dr. Jacobe Bell: In like terms of live coaching, Lindsay Lyons: in terms of any, any part of being an instructional coach. So I mean, we could even [00:26:00] broaden it out to like what's the self-work? I mean like any part of instructional coaching. Yeah. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yeah. For me, and I mean this kind of goes back to the reclaiming authenticity book, but like for me, like we're all unique people. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And how do we be authentic to ourselves, our roles, um, in ways that, that our personality are like, you know, like some of the coaches I coach. Some of the things they do in schools, I'm like, oh wow. Like I could not do that, but it works really well for you. You know, like just the personality wise, like it works really well. Dr. Jacobe Bell: And I know that sometimes, like my directness works really well for me and something about my affect surrounding it like works well. Um, but then for some people it may need to look a little different. So I have a [00:27:00] hard time saying like, Ooh, the one leg, um. The one thing because I feel like people kind of have to find their authentic, um, way. Dr. Jacobe Bell: But I do think generally as an entry point, um, asking teachers their opinions, um, and like really hearing them, not just going through the motions. Like, what do you think went well with your lesson today? Okay, well what I saw was yada yada, you know, it's like. Finding authentic ways to en engage. And there's so many like coaching formulas and things out there, and a lot of 'em are great. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, but I think what undergirds that is like rapport, relationships, and like authenticity. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I love that. That was like not a, here's a one size fits all answer that is, that's very real, very authentic. And so I, I think as we're we're closing out, I just wanna, I'm curious [00:28:00] about the things like professionally or not professionally that people are learning about when they come on the podcast. Lindsay Lyons: And so I'm curious to know what you have been learning about lately. So it could be related to instructional coaching, but it doesn't have to be. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yeah, I've been reading a lot about change management and sustainability. Um, the last couple years I've helped implement some pretty large scale initiatives, but then even thinking about at the school level and the changes we wanna sustain in schools. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Um, there's a certain amount of like, change management that occurs that I think as educators we don't really talk about. Um, like that, or same with like sustainability. Like there's some schools like, oh, with it, I'm like, wow. Like I can see the fingerprints of all the things we focused on. Right. Um, and then there's others where it's like, oh, because of teacher turnover or for whatever reason, um. Dr. Jacobe Bell: It's a little harder. So it's [00:29:00] like how do you plan for sustainability from day one versus like, we did these things, great, we feel good. Are they gonna still occur after our coaching? We don't know. You know, like, so I've been reading a lot and thinking a lot about sustainability. Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh. I feel like we could do a whole other podcast. Lindsay Lyons: That is my jam. I'm so excited. Um, okay, cool. Well, where can people connect with you and, and learn more about your work and, and continue to follow your stuff? Dr. Jacobe Bell: Yes, LinkedIn. Right now I am active on LinkedIn, Dr. Jacoby Bell. Um, and that's the best place to connect with me. Awesome, Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Bell, thank you so much. Lindsay Lyons: This was such a treat. Dr. Jacobe Bell: Thank you, Lindsay. 
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In this episode, our guest, Dr. Jana Lee, shares her expertise on measuring coaching effectiveness and creating inclusive classrooms through skill-based instruction. Formerly a special education teacher and now a K-12 education consultant, Dr. Lee brings insights from both years of hands-on experience and researched best practices.
Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes the importance of shifting from level-based grouping to flexible, skill-based grouping and the need for systematic data collection. Dr. Lee underscores the power of cross-curricular consistency where students practice the same skills across all subject areas to create a cohesive learning environment. The Big Dream Dr. Lee's big dream for education is that all students—of all learning capabilities—leave their K-12 experience feeling more confident for their post-secondary lives. This means addressing not just academic capabilities, but rebuilding students socially, emotionally, and mentally so they're prepared to pursue what best fits their wants, needs, and interests. Dr. Lee believes this is achieved by approaching education through as inclusive a lens as possible. Mindset Shifts Required To create an inclusive learning environment for all students, teachers can embrace the mindset shift that moves away from making instructional decisions based on preconceived beliefs about what students can do (including assumptions based on IEPs, benchmark results, or perceived gaps). Instead, educators can make flexible decisions based on what students demonstrate in the moment. This requires shifting from level-based grouping to skill-based grouping, where students aren't stigmatized by being in the "struggling" group but are instead grouped dynamically based on specific skills they're working on. Action Steps Effectively supporting diverse student needs requires moving away from preconceived ideas or level-based grouping and embracing students’ independent capabilities. Dr. Lee suggests the following action steps to help make the necessary mindset shift today: Step 1: In your day-to-day teaching, identify 60-90 seconds in your lesson where students will work completely independently on a skill-based task. During this time, resist the urge to intervene—even if students ask to use the bathroom, weren't present yesterday, or are off-task. This independent work reveals who truly needs support and what specific help they need. Step 2: Collect student artifacts that show thought processes (e.g., written work in secondary classes, and oral language or behavioral observations in elementary). Analyze these artifacts not just for right or wrong answers, but to identify where the error in thinking occurred, which informs how you'll remediate differently rather than simply repeating the same instruction. Step 3: Co-create clear "look fors" or success criteria with leadership that align directly to building or district goals. Ensure these criteria focus on specific instructional moves and pedagogy, then use them consistently in professional learning communities to analyze patterns, celebrate gains, and identify areas for targeted support. Challenges? The biggest challenge teachers face is allowing students to struggle independently for a short time without jumping in to help. Teachers naturally want to support students immediately, but this prevents them from collecting the crucial data needed to understand who needs what type of support. Without seeing what students can do completely on their own, teachers can't accurately identify where errors in thinking occur or create targeted interventions that address the root cause rather than just repeating previous instruction. One Step to Get Started Mark a specific point in your next lesson where you'll give students 60-90 seconds to work completely independently on a skill-based task. Let them struggle, let them sit, let them make mistakes—anyone who doesn't produce something tells you they need to be in your small group for targeted support. This single practice will transform your ability to collect meaningful data and make responsive instructional decisions. Stay Connected You can find this week’s guest on her website, Jana Lee Consulting, or on Instagram. www.janaleeconsulting.com or Instagram @jana.c.lee. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing her Data Insight Survey with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 244 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: [00:00:00] Dr. Generally, welcome to the time for teachership podcast. Dr. Jana Lee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and be able to chat with you. Lindsay Lyons: I am so excited to, and so I've been starting episodes recently with like what's on our mind as we jump into the conversation, so I'll share that on my mind. Are two things. So one, you had an amazing episode on Chrissy Beltran's, uh, podcast, which I loved about how to measure coaching effectiveness. And then I also have been thinking myself about outcomes-based, uh, contracting, which for schools and districts listening or engaging with episode, it's like paying coaching, uh, coaches, contractors for like, how the actual impacts on student learning, um, as part of the, the deal with the contract. That lends itself to a lot of measurement questions, like how do we actually measure student learning effectively? And so I'm really excited to dig into this concept of measuring today. Dr. Jana Lee: What on your mind? Absolutely. And, and what's on my mind? The [00:01:00] excitement and being able to share how we can actually collect some concrete data that speaks to the. Impact that our work is having, not just on teachers, but also on on students, just like you shared. I think that it's a very nuanced concept, um, but one that is really important to dig further into because it just showcases the, the work that we are doing and its effectiveness. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you for that. I, I, one of the things I wanna like just ask big picture before we get into like the specifics is I love Dr. Patina love's, uh, quote about freedom dreaming. And so she says, there are dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so with that in mind, like what is that big dream that you hold for education? Dr. Jana Lee: Wow. What a, what a very big question. I think my, my big dream is that. Teachers, 'cause I'm always thinking about what's happening.[00:02:00] Boots on the ground alongside students and teachers are the ones that are the most, you know, just have the most interaction naturally being that they're in the classroom, but that all students of all learning capabilities leave their K to 12 experience feeling more confident. And ready for their post-secondary lives. Uh, and that that can look a number of different ways, uh, and that it's not just a student's academic, um, capabilities that we're looking at, but also how we're rebuilding them socially and emotionally and mentally, where they're leaving, being ready to do what's next. For them that best fits, you know, their, their wants, their needs, their interests, and I think that that is something that can be achieved when we approach education [00:03:00] through as inclusive a lens as possible. And we make decisions on a regular daily basis that are inclusive for all students. Lindsay Lyons: Great. I, I think as we think about that, one of the things that. May come up for people as they're thinking about, for example, um, pedagogies, but also the measurement aspect of like, how do I know I'm doing well? How do I assess students, right? Like from all the lenses I think about maybe how we learn things in teacher school versus what is. Real and good and equitable and inclusive for students. And so are there any mindset shifts that you've noticed you've had to coach on or, uh, have seen kind of the aha moment come to a teacher or even yourself as you're kind of switching to like, this is, this is actually different from what I thought I would be doing or should be doing, but this is the way. Dr. Jana Lee: Sure. I mean, a lot of my work recently and my, my background is in special education. I was a, [00:04:00] uh, worked as a special education teacher in the South Bronx of New York for, um, almost 10 years. And so I had students of all, you know, shapes and sizes and, and all, um, sort of different circumstances and home backgrounds and, you know, I had to learn how to put my own beliefs of what I thought they were capable of. Uh, you know, including students with IEPs, students who had, you know, challenges in their behavior or just, you know, had great foundational gaps. I had to put that to the side to a degree and move more toward groupings and, and, um, shifts in my instruction that were reflective of what they were doing in the moment and, and learning how to collect that information to make. Flexible decisions and not allowing my preconceived beliefs about them drive the decisions that I was making. And so a lot of my work today, [00:05:00] and this might be, you know, a bit controversial, um, and I'm not saying that we should get rid of leveled groupings of any sort, but I am saying that a lot of my work recently. Has been around, how do we shift from, from grouping students and providing them with, um, scaffolds or instruction based on their levels or what, you know, grade level we think they're at functionally speaking and more so make decisions in the moment and use data in the moment that allows us to make grouping decisions. And I think, you know, a lot of the pushback at times that I get from that is. Well, I would have the same students in the group anyways. You know, that's not always, that's not necessarily true. Uh, I think when we build a culture of, I'm not. When we build a culture that moves away from, well, you typically struggle, so let me work with you and move more toward, I'm gonna look for X, Y, and Z, and then work for [00:06:00] you if that. If you're producing something that doesn't align with that, then we build a culture of safety and risk taking where students are actually destigmatized because it's not based on whether they have an IEP or whether you know their benchmark results. You know? Shows a certain, uh, certain gaps. Um, and I'm not saying that we don't use those benchmark results, but I'm, I am saying that oftentimes the, I find that decisions are made, you know, school-wide and in the classroom more so based on the overarching benchmark results as opposed to what we see students are really creating and doing, um, in the classroom. And so. You know, that's been a really big shift in thought, uh, because traditionally speaking, when we're working with students, um, I think we, we work with them based on, and this might be difficult to admit, but based [00:07:00] on what we believe and, and think that they are able to do. Um, and so that's, that comes to teachers and leaders being, uh, very, very explicitly thinking about. You know, how do I move away from that and move more toward a, a skill-based grouping, flexible approach. Lindsay Lyons: I love so much of what you're saying. I'm just, I'm taking notes here on like, the levels idea, right? The skill levels versus, and even within that I've been playing with. Um, so I've worked with a, I coach with a lot of teachers and have taught, um. A lot of multilingual learners. And so sometimes we'll say like, oh, these are level ones, or these are level twos specifically speaking about a test that actually assesses a variety of things linguistically. And so it's like, this might be like, instead, can we move to more language? Like this is a student who excels with verbal explanation and their verbal expression's actually better in a small group versus a large group or like, like how nuanced can we be? I think there's like one piece, [00:08:00] right? Yeah. And then there's also this idea of like. In the moment, that's really hard for a teacher. So there's a lot of practice that's required, I think, and, and maybe some modeling of like, how do you do that kind of responsiveness that you're talking about, right? Like, I noticed these things. So first I have to know what I need to notice, and then I need to notice it, and then I need to actually be able to kind of move all the pieces and do all the groups and and respond. Um, which is so cool. And I'm sure involves a lot of work, right? Dr. Jana Lee: It does. And you know, to go back to. To, to swing it back to what you mentioned earlier about looking at how our outcomes are impacting student achievement, we need a very systematic way of collecting that quantitative evidence, that evidence that speaks to numbers. And so if you as a teacher are on the ground looking at that. You know, as I call it, the check for understanding and using that as the moment to measure independent proficiency of a skill [00:09:00] that's a lot easier for you to collect, um, and track than perhaps, you know, constantly grouping students based on those levels where, you know, there's a range of things that you need to address in the level grouping. And it's quite difficult for teachers to know where do I begin? Right? Um, and I think. Along with that, you then, when you combine that benchmark work with, what am I seeing students are struggling or proficient in with skills in the classroom, those two pieces of, of, of data, those data points should speak to each other. So ideally we should know where our benchmarks are going to land. Prior to the benchmark, even existing because teachers are engaging with that information on a regular basis. And you know, I I, I think another big component of that is how are we layering in the work that teachers are or the, the, those data points that teachers are collecting in the [00:10:00] classroom, how are we layering that into what they're doing in. The other pieces of the school community, how are, you know, leadership providing feedback as it relates to, uh, teachers making those flexible decisions? How are we, how are teachers engaging with student work in their, you know, professional learning communities or grade team meetings? So it really. It, it, it's, it moves beyond. Ideally, it moves beyond just, uh, teachers making those decisions in the classroom and leadership being very strategic and allowing teachers to then engage with that. Information outside of the classroom and with each other to create streamlined instructional decisions. You know, before I forget, I think a really big component of this is that we see the greatest change when students are receiving consistency across classrooms. Uh, which is why the shift from, you know, why, why part of my work. And my belief is that we have to teach [00:11:00] skills and, and, you know, use content to drive the teaching of those skills and then use instructional activities to create engaging interaction with the content. And so when students are receiving skill-based instruction across the BO board. We're far more likely to see increase in student achievement because it's not just happening in isolation. It's not just content driven. It's not like, oh, I'm gonna go to social studies and learn just about social studies. And then when I go to math, I only, you know, I'm just learning math. It's about what does justify look like in social studies and what does it mean to justify in math? And so when we can allow teachers to on the ground, collect information on students as it relates to those skills, and then bring that information to their meetings, they can create. Consistent instructional, you know, strategies and they can collaborate around what's working and not working for specific students, um, that allows students just greater opportunity throughout their day to practice these skills and [00:12:00] continue to thrive. And that's really, you know, goes back to the idea of, uh, creating inclusive culture and allowing us to have greater opportunity to measure the impact that we're having on, on student, on student achievement. Lindsay Lyons: Whoa, there's so much. I wanna just like a stamp and ask more about, so Dr. Jana Lee: listen, I can go on and on. So at some point you can just say, Jonna, we've had enough. Like, can you mo moving on? Lindsay Lyons: I, I love this. So the idea of like. That it's actually easier to teach to skill-based groups because you're actually teaching less as opposed to more because it's such a big umbrella is I just wanna like stamp that for people who did, who missed that the first time. That's brilliant. And what a good mindset shift. Also, I'm thinking about kind of both the structures and then the data specifically to gather when we're thinking about instructional leaders. So instructional coaches or maybe, you know, in a small school setting, it might be like a building leader, like an assistant principal or someone. Dr. Jana Lee: Yeah. Lindsay Lyons: Um, so [00:13:00] like you were talking about professional learning communities, I imagine there's probably instructional coaching cycles that could happen. There's like all of these, Dr. Jana Lee: all of it Lindsay Lyons: places. And so are there like either structures that you recommend or like moves leaders can make to. Enhance or set up these structures as well as what data would you actually encourage folks to gather or even gather yourself as an instructional leader to then like look at, analyze, respond to in that professional learning space? Dr. Jana Lee: Yeah, so it all starts with your goals. Whether they're district goals, building goals, uh, whatever the goals are, everybody needs to know about them. And everybody needs to know what is my role in bringing this goal to life? And I would make the assumption that. Somewhere in those goals include, you know, how collectively, uh, we are increasing student achievement, right? Um, and so. From a leadership coaching perspective, it is really important that your role as a coach is [00:14:00] defined in terms of when I am supporting teachers or when I am looking at the building of these meetings that I might have, or my faculty meetings, or the way in which I'm communicating weekly to my staff. How am I bringing in? Uh, these goals, number one. And then number two, how am I making it clear about, as a leader, my role in supporting boots on the ground for teachers? So teachers, there's no secrets here. There's a lot of transparency, right? So there, that's the first thing. There's gotta be real clarity around, as a coach, what am I doing to support these goals? Right. And then how does that come to life instructionally so that I can support teachers very clearly. So what goes along with that in terms of a system, I'm a huge fan of taking the guesswork out of support, create, co-create a list of look fors or success criteria that speaks to. [00:15:00] The pedagogy that you are looking for in the classroom. So often support comes through, you know, oh, let me give you, just for a lack of a better word, like rose or a thorn or a grower, you know, grow or glow. That feedback is, is kind of, can go all over the place. Um, whereas we see the greatest gains when the feedback is very centered on an instructional move or, or something specific. As it relates to the look fors that you've created, and those look fors should align directly to the goals of the district. That or the school community. That is a very, um, that's a structural component that will make. That will take a lot of the guesswork also out of, are we meeting our goals? Because everybody has a role to play. And a lot of times if I were to ask a teacher, what are your building goals or what are your district goals to, you know, know no fault of their own, lot of them [00:16:00] struggle and being able to communicate that. Um, and so everybody needs to be working toward. Toward what the, you know, overarching student achievement goals are for the community and everybody has a role to play. And then as teachers, it's important that teachers are very clear on, you know, what are the moves that they need to be making in order to bring those goals to life. And in order to fulfill the look fors and the success criteria that they have co-develop. As it relates to, you know, the, the bigger picture. Um, and teachers are then very clear on what they are working toward, and they know that the support that comes from leadership or coaching is going to align directly toward that. So, you know, you, you start small. And, uh, in your PLCs or in your leadership meetings, you're looking at the, the data that you are collecting with those look fors and success criteria to say one of two things. Yeah. We're moving in the right direction in terms of where we wanna go with achievement. [00:17:00] Right. Uh, or to say, Hey, we're really moving, we're really growing in these areas. But it looks like when it comes to, you know. Student engagement in these in small groups. I'm just, you know, or, um, the, uh, number of minutes that teachers are, are en engaged in direct instruction. These are little pockets that we really wanna hone in on. So it allows you to see themes and patterns to modify the support and to leverage and highlight the great gains that you are seeing. Um, and you know, it also allows. It takes the guesswork out. It kind of, well, two things, takes the guesswork for leadership. Out of what support am I providing? The language is there, there's consistency in messaging. Everybody knows what they're doing and what they're working toward. And for teachers, it kind of allows them to lessen their, um, their bring their walls down a little bit because it's less of a guessing game. Like, oh, what are they in here to see? Like, am I doing the right thing? Right? Am I doing what they [00:18:00] want? Uh, there are also teachers are clear on, on the moves that they should be making, and all of it collectively allows us to collect information that is number driven. Um, it allows for, uh, teachers to feel like their voices are being heard in terms of. You know what they want this to look like when look, fors and success criteria are co-created, and it allows support to be very driven and focused. And then your student achievement should back that great workup. So you're not just relying on student achievement numbers to tell you the success of, you know, the, the, the, the pedagogy. You're allowing, you know, both of those pieces of information to speak to the impact that you're having. Holistically. Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, that ma, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm thinking about the, uh, student achievement specifically that student achievement data. So you, you could go in right, as a, a le instructional leader, even as a teacher [00:19:00] who's kind of observing different pieces and observe certain things. Um, and then there's also, like, I know I've heard you talk about the student artifacts themselves, right? Being really powerful. So beyond. A lot of times traditionally we think a lot of times of like a test or something, but like, you know, how did that student do on that exit ticket? Right? Or like, what was the quote shared in the, the verbal discussion and we're assessing discourse. Are there particular, um, either like lesser collected types of data or like data that actually is really illuminating that one might not initially think, uh, to collect that you would highlight? Dr. Jana Lee: Absolutely. You know, I think in secondary, um. Anything that I, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to secondary first, and then I'm gonna go to elementary because I think elementary can be a little bit more difficult, particularly when it comes to reading and writing. I'll talk about that in a moment. In secondary, anything that shows a student's thought process in written form is going to allow teachers to. Assess, not whether they got it right or [00:20:00] wrong, but where the error in thought process occurred. Right. That then I'm having a lot of conversations. My team and I are having a lot of conversations with teachers around. When you're then remediating or targeting, or intervening, it's not just about repeating what the student already heard in the previous lesson. You have to change the approach and identify where the gap was. So that you better understand what that remediation needs to look like. We actually have, um, a small, uh, a small group playbook that maybe I can, I can send to you the link, Lindsay, and, and you can throw it up somewhere or you know, people can access it. Um, but that, that small group playbook allowing teachers to say, this is where I saw the error, and then this is how I would respond. So you might have students that didn't get it correct. 'cause they just didn't follow the directions. Right. That's gonna look how you, how [00:21:00] you target your feedback for that student is gonna look a little different than the student who, you know, made a gap or, or, um, has processing challenges and got it wrong because the way in which they're, they're sequencing, their thoughts are, are just mi mixed up, right? So we've gotta be able to hone in on that a little bit. Uh, with more certainty. And so looking at actual artifacts, anything that shows that thought process is going to allow us to, to do that. Now, I moved to elementary, which is more difficult because, you know, you're getting into the nuances of students who are learning how to read or reading how, you know, reading to learn. You get into students who might not have that, um, that writing maturation quite, quite yet, especially in your. I would even say pre-K, kindergarten, first grade, where students are just learning how to craft or draw or label, right? This is where, um, teachers have to be able to collect [00:22:00] something that's, that is, um, either behavioral, right? Um, something that is oral, uh, that oral language, something that. Uh, demonstrates production, but it might not necessarily be in written form. So they might be bringing anecdotes that speak to what it is that they saw from students or heard, whether it's, you know, something tactile or, um, you know, so students are engaging in a turn and talk. Right? So that information might be more anecdotal, but it should still be thick enough, I guess I would say, heavy enough where. Teachers can dig in to see where did the thought process or where is the, the, where are we not, uh, hitting the mark? Why is the student not me meeting that skill? Especially in reading, you know, with, with phonics and whatnot being something that obviously a lot of, you know, school communities are moving [00:23:00] more toward how are we, you know, digging or annotating our curriculum to also show where students are maybe going left or not, you know, not. Not where they're missing the mark. So you might see more of the annotation of curriculum or anecdotes be brought to the table, but nonetheless, the same rules apply in terms of being able to, to speak to student thought and, and where the, you know, where the, the error occurred Lindsay Lyons: so much there. One of the things I'm thinking about is like the. When we have to do responsive coaching or remediation, right? We have to have that diagnosis of where the error occurs. I think sometimes we just jump right over that we don't think about, like we just need to know that there's not an understanding and then, but then how do you possibly correct the understanding, right, if we're not sure where the error occurs. So I just love that you illuminated that for us, like. We need to just understand students' thinking. And again, that to your point, it could look very different how we assess [00:24:00] that. I even had, yesterday I was in a discourse session at Boston Public Schools and the instructional coach there, um, or program lead there for social studies was like, oh, what I used to do in my fourth grade class. And it was like mind blowing. She's like, we use these little manipulatives. And like every time they spoke, it would be like you build on the same tower if you build on each other's ideas, you make a separate tower if you're new ideas. And like each person has a different color, so you can see where the pattern of conversation goes. I'm like. I never would've thought of that. Elementary teachers are brilliant, but like, yeah, think about the creative ways that we can do that, that might not be in writing, but is still highly valuable. Like, that's such a good idea. Dr. Jana Lee: And that's where the collaboration of like bringing that work to a, a professional learning community or meeting is so important because it allows. For teachers to engage in those conversations and learn from one another and see what's working versus not with particular students or even just with instruction in general. Um, and so if you know that you have students that are constantly, you know, making a, a, a mistake when it [00:25:00] requires thinking that's more than like one or two minutes long, um, that's something that teachers can say we're gonna focus on. How to support the student or the group of these, group of students with that in our classes, right? In our, along our lessons, and this is the strategy that we're gonna use. That's why I'm such a. I, I, I, I will scream this from the rooftops. We have to be able to provide teachers with strategies that are program content and grade agnostic and let the content drive the rigor. So whether I'm in a math class, or social studies, or reading or writing, we want these strategies to be able to be something that can be seen across the board. And so that's the consistency that is so important for students to receive. Throughout their day as opposed to just in isolation, as I mentioned earlier, um, in isolation with, you know, one or two teachers. Lindsay Lyons: Such a powerful point. Such a powerful point. I, [00:26:00] I am recognizing that we are close to the end of our time together. I'd love to ask just a few more questions. Maybe we can, of course, some lightning round of some sort. Dr. Jana Lee: Yes. I gotcha. Lindsay Lyons: Okay. So biggest challenge that teachers face in like the either looking at data or like measuring data or like any of the things we've talked about, is there something that comes up as like, this is a huge challenge and here's how you. Could go about it. Dr. Jana Lee: Letting students, giving students 60 to 90 seconds to do something completely independent without their support is really difficult for teachers to do. The number one thing that I would say to, to. To support that with teachers. Um, mark, somewhere in your lesson, the 60 to 90 seconds that you're just gonna let students go. And for the student that asks to go to the bathroom, let them, for the student that wasn't here yesterday and doesn't know what to do, let them sit there for the student that's bugging their neighbor. Let [00:27:00] them, anybody who doesn't produce. Lets you know that they're a group of, they're the group that you need to pull at some point to address whatever it is that they didn't get right or that they didn't do. Um, that's the most difficult letting students sit there and work on their own for 60 to 90 seconds, even if they're struggling. Lindsay Lyons: I'm gonna use that as a parent, just like shoes on. Okay. We're taking five minutes. Got it. Like, I'm gonna at least let you struggle for 90 seconds. Yes. Dr. Jana Lee: Yes. Yes. We have to see, we have to see what they can do on their own before we start to dig in and, and, and support because it's the only way that we can collect who needs what. Lindsay Lyons: Love it. Okay. Biggest thing you would encourage listeners to do when they end the episode? Something that's like easily start able or implementable right away. Yeah. Dr. Jana Lee: Um, where in your lesson are you gonna give them 60, 90 to seconds, 60 to 90 seconds to work on their own as it relates to the skill that you are teaching. Lindsay Lyons: Great. This is for fun. So it could be related to work [00:28:00] or not at all. Okay. What is something that you have been learning about lately? Dr. Jana Lee: Um, so bringing. So my dissertation was on, um, uh, adolescent reading comprehension. So we have students who are in secondary schools that are, or secondary grade levels that do not know how to read. And so a lot of what I've been thinking about has been how do I translate my findings with that and share with as many secondary teachers as possible strategies that they can use in their classrooms to support those learners who might be reading at a, you know. Elementary or, or, you know, uh, reading grade levels behind Lindsay Lyons: that resonates deeply as a high school special education teacher who had students reading at the first grade level. So thank you for doing that important work. Um, and then people who want to like myself now follow all of that work that you're doing. Where can folks connect with you In the online space? Or, or, Dr. Jana Lee: [00:29:00] yes. So you can find me at jonna dot c Lee on Instagram. Uh, you can head to my website, www.jonnaleeconsulting.com. Uh, I've got resources there that'll lead you to all of my other platforms. Um, yeah, we've got some really exciting things that are, uh, I'm excited to be able to share that with the world, and that's where you can find me. Absolutely. I'm so excited to have, uh, been able to be here with you today and engage in this really important and fun conversation, so thank you. 
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In this episode, we chat with Chrissy Beltran, a coach for coaches who is committed to exploring the evolving role. In her work, Chrissy emphasizes the importance of having a clear vision for instructional coaching and strives to offer practical, actionable strategies.
In our conversation, she highlights the need for differentiated approaches that meet teachers where they are and underscores the value of building strong relationships. Chrissy’s approach centers on supporting teachers so they can better support students, always keeping the broader goal of student development in mind. The Big Dream Chrissy’s ultimate vision for education is a system where schools empower students to discover their passions and develop the skills they need to build fulfilling lives. It’s all about helping them grow into the adults they are meant to be and build the life they want to build. She dreams of an environment where every child has the opportunity to explore, learn, and grow into the person they aspire to be, with equity and individual choice at the heart of the educational experience. Mindset Shifts Required Both new coaches and those in the role for some time can benefit by embracing a key mindset: we’re there to support teachers so they can support students—the purpose is to help grow these kids into adulthood. Coaches can shift from focusing only on classroom routines to embracing a broader purpose: supporting teachers as partners in student growth. Coaches must move beyond critiquing what’s “wrong,” but maintain a strong sense of purpose to look for ways to leverage every interaction as an opportunity for positive change. Action Steps For coaches looking to define their role or just get started, Chrissy recommends the following action steps: Step 1: Reflect on and define your personal vision for coaching. What do you want your role to look like? How do you want to spend your time? One helpful exercise is to draw out a pie chart and visually define the time you want to spend in classrooms, facilitating teams, or in meetings. Step 2: Once you are clear on your coaching vision, communicate it clearly with school leadership to ensure alignment and support before you dive in and communicate with teachers. Step 3: Introduce yourself to teachers with clarity about your role, emphasizing partnership and growth rather than quick fixes or top-down mandates. It’s important for teachers to understand what a coach is and isn’t, managing expectations around instant-change or quick fixes. Instead, coaching is an ongoing process, a partnership. Step 4: Build your coaching strategy toolbox, differentiating them as low, medium, and high-impact strategies. This helps you stay responsive to teachers and what they need, what their capacity is, and what’s most likely to move the needle for positive change. Meet teachers where they are, choosing the strategy that is most effective in working toward shared goals. Challenges? One of the biggest challenges coaches face is resistance from teachers. Whether it’s because of negative past experiences or uncertainty about the coaching role, some teachers simply don’t want to work with a coach. Building trust takes time and persistence, but it’s important to approach each relationship with respect, empathy, and a willingness to adapt strategies to individual needs. Coaches need to keep investing in the relationship, even when there’s resistance. One Step to Get Started To begin making an impact, coaches should assess their current practices and add one new strategy to their toolkit. This small step can help them better differentiate their support and more effectively meet the diverse needs of the teachers they work with. Stay Connected You can connect with Chrissy and find out more about her work on her website, Buzzing With Ms. B, Instagram, Instructional Coaching with Ms. B Facebook group, and Instructional Coaching with Ms. B Podcast To help you implement today’s takeaways, Chrissy is sharing her Book Pass PD Strategy with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 243 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Chrissy Beltran, welcome to the time for teachership podcast. Thank you so much for having me today. I loved having you as a guest on my podcast, and I'm so excited to be a guest on yours. Oh my gosh. I am so excited too. And I have to say, anyone listening, instructional coaches like. Chrissy, your, uh, your podcast is like the one, anytime I need instructional coaching inspiration, I'm like, I'm just gonna binge listen to this for the next three hours. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you. For sure. I highly encourage people to go to your podcast and check it out, and we'll of course link to it as well in the, in the blog post and show notes. Awesome. Thanks. Um, but I'm, I'm so curious, be beyond the podcast or maybe inclusive of the podcast, like what do you want people to know about you or just keep in mind for our conversation today as we get into it. Um, I guess that's a big question. I guess in general, just that, um, I mean, you know, I support instructional coaches and I, I am trying to help coaches make sense out of this role that is. Evolving and is very nebulous and often not defined at a school level. And, um, administrators don't often know what it is. Teachers don't often know what it is, so it's kinda like, what are we doing? We're just building these planes and flying them and crashing and building and flying and crashing. And so, so I just, you know, I tried to provide practical, actionable coaching two coaches, because they're often missing that. We, we get into the school and it's kinda like when you're a new teacher and they stuff you in a classroom and shut the door and say, you know, see you in May. You know, and you're like, oh my gosh, how am I allowed to be responsible for this much, you know, important stuff. And coaching is similar, similar, it's you're the first day of school, you go into your room and you're like. I guess this is my job now. I don't have students here. What is happening? And so that's really where I try to come in and provide the support because I know how isolating and, um, unsettling that feeling is of not knowing what your job is. Oh my gosh, that resonates deeply. That is probably one of the most common things that I hear from people who have just started a coaching role. What am, what am I doing? Yes. What is my job? I remember in my interview asking, what will my job look like? And my principal was like, well, whatever you think best. And that wasn't completely true, but it was mostly true and it was shocking. I mean, that makes me think about this next question that usually, you know, um. Ask people. I feel like as a coach and as a teacher as well, and a leader, you need to have kind of your, your north star, your big vision, right? Mm-hmm. And so I think that kind of anchors and can help construct what your role might be. Um, and so, so I'll ask it now. So in line with the idea of freedom dreaming, which Dr. Patina love describes as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. What is that big dream that you personally hold for either education broadly for instructional coaching, however you wanna interpret this? Okay, sure. So when I think about. About school in general and education in general. I feel like we're very far from what I would like to see. Um, but really I feel like everything we do is supposed to help little people, young people, grow into the adults that they're going to be, who have to build a life in, in whatever place they live and. We all get to choose what our lives are to a degree, right? We make choices, we have decisions, we have opportunities. We decide yes or no, and sometimes we don't know how those choices we make are going to impact our future lives. And you know, there are different, we some have more choices or more options or more possibilities than others. And so I would love school to be the place where. Kids can explore and find out what they love and get good at some, some things that they're gonna need to build the life that they want to build. So like, that would, like, that's, that addresses all the issues of equity. Like if we can do this, if we can really, truly help kids become the person that they wanna be so that they have the life that they want to live. I mean, I have friends, I just had a conversation with a friend of mine, brilliant person, struggles to live his life, you know, he just is still not sure. At our ripe old age of 44, what exactly he wants his life to look like. And I feel like we miss such an opportunity. And there are lots of factors there of course, but we miss such an opportunity in school to help kids figure out what they want before they leave. And I think so much of that is 'cause we focus on these really discreet skills because that is what is like, they have to master these skills. They have to master these skills. And obviously skills matter, right? You cannot build a life you want without some skills, but. It is hard to see kids leaving our schools who still don't really know what they wanna do with themselves. And 18 is very young, but we can give them more of a direction for sure, if they can only like try different things and find out what they're good at and what they enjoy. And I feel like coaching, it's difficult because. You are in, you're at the mercy, right? You're in, you're in between. You're the middle management kind of, except you don't have any power of a manager. And so you are like, you're hearing the words come down from on high, and then you see the classrooms and you see the kids, and you see the teachers and you see the challenges every day. And so you're always trying to balance out, oh my gosh, we have this curriculum and we have this, um. We have this test coming up, the big capital T test, and this is what kids are gonna be held accountable for. So we really do need to prepare them for that 'cause it's not fair to them to be held, you know, accountable for something we haven't prepared them for. But is that really the whole reason we're here? No, it's not the whole reason we're here. So you're having this constant little battle in your brain. And so I feel like as coaches, the reality of that is we have to always have that idea embedded in everything that we do. Because we can't, you can't, we are not responsible for the system. We can't fix the system tomorrow. We don't get to make those choices, unfortunately, at the level that we are. Um, but if that's always in your brain, then you can make changes towards that direction. I love that. And you know, I've been, um, steeped in like little, little kids culture lately. Yeah. Active parenting. And whereas I was a high school teacher and it's so interesting to see that little kids actually do know a lot more about what they want. Sometimes it's really expansive. Like, oh, today I wanna be a firefighter and tomorrow I wanna be a doctor and then I wanna be a veterinarian. The next like, sure. But it is like I am clear on what I want in this moment and I see less and less of that as they get older. And so I love your vision of like. The, it's in there somewhere. Let's just like help them explore and get, like, stay connected to that. Mm-hmm. And I, it just brings me so much joy to hear that, oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I know what you mean. And I, I see that in my children, they're four and seven and I think about, like, I, I want them to. To have found the thing that they love, you know, and mul or multiple things, you know, and so like whenever I put them in an an activity, it's not so they can like be amazing at it. It's so they can try it and see and learn something and have a cool experience and, and put that in their pocket, you know, as something that they know about now, you know, it's like exposure and then they can choose something over time that they love. It's my goal. I love that. And you know, I actually think that that is a lot about like instructional coaching and teachers kind of as well is like, let's test this thing out. Yes. Let's see if this like works with kids. Let's like get creative. And um, I had a colleague recently we were co-presenting and she's like, let's just play with inquiry. Like let's just play with it. And I'm like, oh, I love this idea of like. Your job can be playful. Mm-hmm. And it can be like fun and joyful and you can explore. Yes. So I think there's so, so much power in instructional coaching to help teachers find and reconnect with like their love of teaching in addition, of course to like helping, helping students. Right. The ultimate goal. But I, I am curious, I think a lot of times. You know, we go from maybe teachers to instructional coach and it can kind of, as you mentioned, like be a very big shift where you're like, there are no kids in this room. What am I doing now? You know, like what are those kind of mindset shifts or, uh, maybe a key mindset to keep in mind as a coach is kind of entering that role or even. A seasoned coach who's like, okay, I really wanna do things a little bit different this year. What would you tell them? Sure. I think that, um, but you know, in terms of the work that we do, we are there to support teachers because they support kids. Supporting teachers is not the end of, of our sentence. It's not the end of what we're doing. Um, the purpose is to help grow these kids right into adults that have to make their lives, you know, with all the choices that they have. And so. You know, whenever we're working with teachers, it can be like at first you, whenever you first get started, you're kind of, it's kind of jarring 'cause you're like. This doesn't look like my classroom. I'm visiting these rooms. It's so different and weird. Why are they doing it like that? And it's, it's hard not to have that. But you're a normal human being, right? We, we normally do this. We connect what we know and we are like comparing, you know? And like, this is different. This is weird. And so, you know, at first we start out. Looking at what seems like not right? Right? What seems off. Um, and then over time we can actually take a step back and be like, okay, well what is the purpose here? What am I doing here? We're not, I'm not here to be like, well, this seems weird and that seems wrong, and that's wrong and this is wrong. Instead, we have to like, think beyond what we did in the classroom and think about a bigger purpose for our work, right? So if our bigger purpose is about. It's about supporting kids and growing them. Into kids who have opportunities, right into kids who have choices because they can do all the basic things and also they know some stuff about lots of different things. Then we can kind of have that constantly running in the background of the work that we do with teachers and the work that we do with kids. And so instead of like focusing on what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong, we can be like, okay, how can I take this? Interaction, any coaching interaction, because we have millions of them and we don't even always consider them coaching, but any interaction you have with a teacher is an opportunity to like leverage that right into something bigger. And so you can say, okay, I'm having a conversation passing in the hallway, right. I'm not gonna change teaching, I'm not gonna change it today. I'm not gonna, you know, completely reboot the system today, but I can do something that will help me move this conversation forward so that I can help the teacher grow in that direction and make the changes. And if we're always having our purpose in the back of your mind, and yours might be a little different than mine, right? Everybody has a different vision of what they, what they would love to see school look like. But if you can. Have that purpose in the back of your mind, then you can kind of always find the kind of like the motivation and the energy to like move that conversation forward into something bigger and say, okay, I know that we're having a small conversation now, but I can leverage this by saying, why don't I come by and see that in your classroom tomorrow? Or would you like to come by today and take a look at this resource or, you know, we can, we, we can continue to develop the small CS that teachers give us. So if we can focus on like, okay, let's take, we're having a, a team meeting here and we're talking about planning and we're using a curriculum, right? And that's, that feels kind of, you know, restrictive or it feels kind of dry and pointless sometimes you're like, Ugh, this lesson is like so corny or useless. What can we do to like move that into a bigger, teachable moment, not just for kids, but for teachers? How can we have a conversation and say, you know what? What are some opportunities we have to connect this to reality, to connect this to current events, to connect this to the world that kids live in, so that they kind of have an idea of what they believe about themselves, about the world, about what they like and what they don't like, what they think is good and what they don't think is good. How can we like take this moment and make it bigger? And so if we can just kind of always have that mindset running. But we can take moments, leverage them into bigger stuff than, I think that as a coach, we avoid some of like the, like if somebody passes in the hallway and they're like, Ugh, parent night. I just, ugh, talking with parents just stresses me out instead of saying, I know, right. Ugh. Parents. Which is maybe what our instinct is to do sometimes. Uh, 'cause we feel like, well, we're commiserating, which is okay to commiserate, but then we wanna say, what can we do to help you feel prepared for that? We wanna take everything and turn it into something bigger, and we have these opportunities. We just have to keep that in the forefront that we can do this, we can make these things into bigger moments. I love that. That's such a really great concrete example too, because I imagine that is, that is a common thing people have encountered is like, yes, do I commiserate as like a fellow teacher, which I might used to have been last year, right? Or do I coach forward? Right. Yeah, and you can do both. You demonstrate a little empathy by being like, I know it can be really stressful. What can we do is whenever you move it forward, right? Yeah. Absolutely. I, so I wanna get into differentiating coaching for sure. I want, maybe let's take one more step, just as like a, um, if I'm just getting into coaching or I'm kind of like redefining my relationship with my teachers, is there any kind of tip or action step that you would recommend for coaches who are just trying to define that role, get started, um, kind of address some of the challenges of that that we talked about? Yeah, definitely. I think that some of it is that we have to have a clear vision for what coaching is, and if you have not been coached or if you had been coached by somebody who maybe was not the vision of coaching that you would like or had a role that wasn't. Maybe gonna look like yours or wasn't ideal, which happens all the time that we get an ideal role. Um, if you have had that experience, then I think it's really important to like really pause and paint a picture and envision what do I want my coaching work to look like? What do I want my day to be like? Where do I wanna spend my time? Um, Angela, uh, Harkness and, and, um, Lindsay Deacon, the Educ Coach Survival Guide. I just saw them this summer in, um. In Round Rock outside of Austin at the Region 13 Coaching Conference, and they did a really neat little activity where you draw like a circle. You could do paper plate. You kind of wanna divide it up in terms of time and how much time you wanna spend on certain things. You know, like a little pie, pie chart. And so I think that that can be helpful just in thinking about, okay, well how much, how much time do I wanna spend in classrooms? How much time do I wanna s. Bend. You know, like I know that personally, whenever I first started coaching, I was responsible for facilitating PLC teams. And that was like an every Tuesday, you know, once you hit the door, until you leave the the school thing, you know, it wasn't like something I could choose or not choose. And that required preparation as well. So that was like Tuesday shot, right? Tuesday was gone. Part of Monday was also gone to prepare for Tuesday. Monday was also leadership after school. Wednesday was this, you know, after school learning. Thursday I had to prepare for an hour of pd. Those things are just already like off your calendar, so then you really have. To think about with that white space that you have, what kind of coach do I wanna be and what is my coaching work gonna look like? And the beauty of differentiating coaching is that I think it actually, you have to define your coaching role in order to be able to do this. And you have to have an idea of how you wanna differentiate in order to find your coaching role because you're a picking strategies that you are, you think will be most helpful to teachers to kind of focus on. And that's going to be the main crux of your folks, your of your coaching work. But then you're also saying, okay, in this moment, how am I going to be responsive to teachers? And that's where we differentiate, that's where we create the personalized experience. So in terms of like defining your role, you wanna have big picture ideas and you wanna have like, you know, like a, like a goal and a vision of what you want your coaching to be. And you wanna be able to clearly communicate that with administration and clarify all of that first before you even bother talking to a teacher. Because that's, if not, you're gonna be sadly disappointed. And it's gonna be very confusing for teachers as well. So make sure you're on the same page there. And then make sure you can communicate it clearly with teachers and when you go to introduce yourself, that you are clear on what a coach is and what a coach isn't. That it is a partner. It is somebody to help support teachers to grow, to find opportunities for learning, and to do that together. Um, and it's not that you're gonna be able to fix anybody. You're not gonna fix anything and walk into a classroom and just change everything overnight. It's not gonna happen. Um, and, and I think that sometimes that's a position that administrators put us in. You know, so be aware of like the realities of the role. Define it clearly with what strategies you're gonna focus on. So then you have flexibility within that to meet teachers' needs because you already know the big picture, if that makes sense. That makes total sense. And I, I am so curious as you like kind of preview differentiated coaching strategies and stuff, I'm like, ooh, I wanna know more. So can you take us through, I mean, I know your, like your book is on undifferentiated coaching and I'm, I'm so curious to know. Um. Yeah, just like what, what, what's included in that? What does that mean? What does that look like? Sure. Um, so yes, I am writing a book. Uh, it should be coming out in May or June with a SCD, so I'm super excited about that. And it's about a coaching strategy toolbox. So the idea is that each of us has this little toolbox and it's full of different strategy. Some of them you don't even realize are gonna contribute to your coaching. Right? And so in terms of. The value of each strategy, I have them sorted into low impact, medium impact, and high impact. 'cause some strategies are more impactful in making classroom change and some are less so. But that doesn't mean we never use them. It doesn't mean they aren't valuable for a purpose. So you kind of have to consider in the moment, okay, what is my purpose? What is my intent? How much time does the teacher have? Like how responsive are they to the work that we are trying to do here? Do they like working with me? Do they not want to work with me? It's just the reality, right? And so you have to think about what your purpose is in order to select some possible strategies that could move your interactions forward. And so, kind of like I mentioned before, really responding to teacher needs. Being attuned to like what is the actual issue that they're having so that we can address that instead of just having like a trite response or well, have you tried the curriculum and you know, kind of directing people back to stuff they already know. We want to think about what is it that they're telling me? Really listen so that we can uncover the root of the issues that they're having, and then choose a strategy from your toolbox that you could use to move this forward into to further coaching work. And so whether that is moving very slowly along with a teacher who is not. Super besties with you, um, and runs the other way whenever they see you. But you wanna make a real point of relationship building, right? You wanna demonstrate empathy, you wanna build credibility, and that's low level and less invasive. You can choose one of those strategies. You can try recommending a resource just to show that you know, resources, right? You're demonstrating your credibility, you're showing that you are listening to a need that they have. You can try serving as a sounding board just listening to the issues that they have and giving, you know, certain. What you're really doing when you're being a sounding board is you are listening to what issues that they have, kind of sorting out those issues with them through questioning, and then say, well then what can we do? How can we do something about this? We don't wanna vent for all eternity. We wanna do something to make your lives better as a teacher and your kids' lives better as students. So what can we do? These so are, they're like very low impact things that you can do if that's what the moment calls for and you want, instead of saying, well, let's go jump right into a coaching cycle. They're not gonna respond to that. And so, so many times we try to get everybody, and I've seen this at schools where people try to get everybody into the same. Like a routine, like a, um, like a system where they have people go through a coaching cycle every two weeks and then they move on to the next person or something. They kind of systematize it because coaching is so, like I said, nebulous, but that doesn't meet the needs of the teachers where they are, which is what differentiation is all about. We wanna meet the needs of where they are and move them forward a little bit. That's what we do with kids. It's, we wanna do the same thing with teachers. So you wanna think about what impact can I choose right now? What is my purpose and how can I move this forward? So there are low, uh, medium and high impact strategies. High impact strategies tend to be the ones that you see in coaching cycles. So looking at, um, model lessons, co-taught lessons in the moment, coaching, video coaching, and then medium impact strategies are more about alignment and knowledge building things that you would tend to do in teams, but you can do one-on-one as well. Wow. That's incredible. And thank you for giving those specific examples because you are right that not everyone wants coaching and there are people who literally run. Yes. So that's so helpful to think about. Okay, like what do I do here? And then what do I do with perhaps the new teacher who's like. I wanna try all the things. Let's go coaching. Yay. Right? Yeah, exactly. 'cause you wanna respond to the person in front of you. You want to teach like, and coach the actual teacher, not like the model cookie cutter of a teacher. Right. Um, and so we have to support the person that we're actually working with by responding to the needs that they have and to their interest level and to their skill level. And um, and sometimes the best thing we can do is just. Continue to move the relationship forward because if we dump in a really high impact strategy right at the beginning, that can be a real turnoff. Like if you're working with a veteran teacher and you offered to model a lesson, they're probably not gonna be super excited if they were not already excited about you. Yeah, exactly. Um, I am curious, I'm sure you've encountered, I mean, I'm sure just like personally you've encountered, but also like coaching coaches, you've encountered challenges that people have faced in coaching. I mean, that I, that's probably the number one that comes to mind is like resistance to the idea of coaching. And now you're paired with them. Sure. Yeah. But I mean, so we could go with that one, or we could go with another one you're thinking of. I'm curious. Uh, of, of a challenge that you've experienced or, or had others experience and like, how do they work through it or what's kind of the, the way forward when they encounter that challenge? Sure. I can give a couple of examples. Um, I mean, this is one that I have myself seen. You know, personally, I mean, we've all experienced resistance. Nobody walks into a school and has everybody go, I'm so glad you're here. Like, it's just not gonna happen. So, so one, one person that I, that I did work with, one teacher, um, there was definitely resistance, I think had nothing to do with me at the time. I think it was. Simply the coaching role. You know, it was, um, who are you coming in here to tell me literally anything And, uh, you don't even have a classroom of your own. I did two months ago before the summer ended, but you're right, I currently do not. So that was a big, um, a really hard, stressful time for me. Person was kind of imposing, um, and, uh, was used to being left alone because they were, um, borderline aggressive. You know, so like, kind of, you know, even physically would use, you know, like I since was a tall person. I'm not a very tall person. Um, but I've been around tall people my whole life, so it, it didn't stress me out, but I think it stressed out a lot of people. And so, you know. Having to find a way. I, I really thought back at the time to my own students who sometimes came in in that same manner and they had generally come in in that manner. 'cause they had had experiences in the past. Who that that had actually shaped them into thinking that, you know, teachers were there to get 'em in trouble or something along those lines, and that they kind of couldn't be trusted. And I figured that that was probably, in many cases, a situation that teachers had seen as well, whenever they were acting in that way. I'm gonna guess that regardless of the quality of their instruction, that they had had those experiences. And maybe that was kind of the root of the problem, you know? And so I definitely. There were things that had to be done. We did a lot of team things. There was a lot of alignment conversation. There were a lot of planning supports and, you know, she wasn't really excited about any of that. But, um, I, I think that keeping a constant demeanor of respect and sort of a persistent. Positivity. Not like an annoying, like, everything's great, la la, la. Not that, but, you know, kind of a, I, you know, I know this is hard, but I believe we can do it. You know, and then showing up and actually following through. So I think eventually I, I wore her down to where she would at least, you know, have engage in conversations with me that we're not, you know, snippy and rude. Right. So then over time. It took, I mean, this really, this was like a two to three year process, um, because we were doing lots of team things, but actually, and I would visit the classroom, but there was, there were always stories about, well, oh, we're not doing that because this, or we're not doing that because that, or I choose to do this instead. And so it was a lot and, and my job was not like police officer or anything, but it certainly was to say, okay, well we plan to do this, and you, there's no evidence that you ever have done any of that. So like, is there an issue with it? Or like, why are we planning things that don't happen? What's the point? You know? So we had small conversations over time and I just kept investing in the relationship and investing in the relationship over time. And then the strategy that I picked once, I felt like she was ready to kind of move into a higher impact. Coaching strategy because it had taken a long time to get there. I chose to work with her on visiting other colleagues because I feel like that is a great gateway drug into coaching. Okay. It's high impact. It's incredibly high impact, but it's not you. And so they are more likely to be receptive, and so you could just say, who do you wanna see? And you can start with it wide open. If you really are having a hard, if it's a really hard nut to crack, start with the door wide open. What do you wanna see? And they can choose what they'd like to see. And then from there you can narrow it down and say, okay, so we've been talking about this specific area. Tell me a little bit about this. You know what? I know somebody who's really great in that area. Maybe we can go visit them. And then you can start moving them through that process till eventually you are. You've established a pretty good coaching relationship and you can get in that classroom as well and do more coaching work with them. Um, so that, that is one strategy that if it's not in your toolbox visiting a colleague or a peer observation, it can also be called, um, learning walks. Some people call 'em that, but I prefer, like, we're not just focused on this one classroom experience, right? Because sometimes learning walks are like visiting a whole grade level or something. This is. You're taking a teacher to see another teacher, the other teacher knows they're coming and has prepared for that moment and has a conversation with the guest teacher when it's over, and then you can also have a conversation with them. So that is one that if you are dealing with a teacher, trying to work with a teacher who has demonstrated resistance over time to any kind of change in their classroom, visiting a colleague can be life changing. Oh my gosh, that's so good. The moment you said it, I was like, that's it, that's the end. Because it totally takes you as the coach out of the equation and, and the fact that they were like, oh, you don't have a classroom any, like anymore or at this moment. Exactly. Like, it's like, oh, here's someone who does and they're doing this thing that you want or want to try. Right. Let's just, I'm just, I'm just here in the background. I'm just the facilitator. The connector will debrief after, like I love that. Yes. Brilliant. One of the challenges that I faced when I started coaching is I came from a school that was not affluent in any way, but was like solid middle class for the most part. You know, there were, I mean, you know, on average it was, it was middle class, lower middle class. And then I moved to a school who had, that had, um, many students in poverty and so. The teachers would say things like, well, that won't work here, because they knew where I came from. And I mean, it was like seven miles away, right? But it was on the other side of the freeway, and it was right by the border. I live in El Paso, it was right by the, the, um, the, the Mexican border. So it was, you know, a lot of kids who. Did not have a lot of resources at home, and so the teachers tended to say, well, that won't work here. They would even tell me things like, well, our classrooms are too small for that, even though the school. The architect was the same architect, so it was the exact same building as the school that I came from. But the things that we get stuck, right, the limitations that we put on ourselves, it never occurred to me to say my classroom was too small for that in my school. And then I came to the exact same building and they were like, no, it's too small. It was so weird, right? And so seeing such a different way of looking at teaching was really eye-opening and having a teacher visit their colleague down the hall and say, because they would say those that won't work with these kids. These are the same kids, okay? Next door. They are random sampling for the most part of the same kids. So if you walk seven feet, you can see that this can happen, this can be done, right? And I think that the other beauty of visiting a colleague, which is one of my favorite strategies, obviously. First of all, I don't have to do a lot. I get to go watch a cool lesson, and that's like the best. But on top of that, they get to see a real thing in action with real kids. And you get to have this conversation that highlights the strengths of another teacher in your school. You get to like help lift up that teacher into leadership and you get to build these relationships across your school where one teacher can go seek out another teacher instead of, you know, sometimes they come, they come to their teachers. This is not the case of this example, but there are those teachers that come to you for everything, right? They will knock on your door before they knock on anybody else's, and you want them to have another friend that they can trust, that they know is a great teacher, that they can go knock on their door too, because they're gonna get such a different perspective from that teacher, and they are going to build the cross grade level, you know, cross vertical alignment teams that really makes schools grow. If everybody looks to you all the time. They, you, you can't grow a school. There's one of you. It's not possible. You've gotta help build those relationships across your school, where even second grade can go to fifth grade because they know that fifth grade teacher is so good at teaching writing, and they wanna see what they do. Brilliant. Oh my gosh. Also, one of my favorite strategies. This is, I'm so glad you highlighted all of those pieces. Brilliant. Um, okay. As we wrap up the episode, a little bit of a lightning round here for the last few questions. Okay. So what is one thing you would encourage audience members to do once they end the episode? Something they could implement right away. I think, um, um, a really tangible thing because it's a lightning round, right? So a really tangible thing. You can tell I'm not good at lightning round. Uh, uh, something that it's easy to do is, is really take a look at what does your coaching look like right now? What strategies are you comfortable using? And then add one so that you can differentiate further and meet teachers' needs in a different way. Brilliant. Okay. Next one. This is for fun. It could relate to what we're talking about or not, but what is something you personally have been learning about lately? So I, um, you know, I mean we, I, I love to learn through reading historical fiction, and I know it's not like I, I need the story first and then I can dig into the history. So that's what helped it stick in my brain. Um, without a story, it doesn't stick. So I have been, I read this book about ancient Vietnam and these two si, it was based on a true story of these two sisters, and they had been trained their whole lives to be like warriors. And then their father would, because it was, this was whenever the Han was like, um. Was had like overtaken the country and so the father, and they had completely undone their ways. I did not know that Vietnam prior to that had been like a matriarchal structure. I had no idea. So whenever the Hanh came, they were like, no, you're gonna like get married. You're gonna have, you know, these households, you're gonna raise your children in this way. All this stuff is really interesting. And so these two sisters. Became warriors. And then whenever their father was executed, they raised this army to fight against the Han and it was a woman like an all women army. And I had never heard that story before and I did not know that's what the book was about when I started reading it. But it was fascinating and it was based on a true story. Oh my gosh. Okay, now that needs to go on my tv. Yeah, it's, it's called Bronze Drum is the name of the book. Bronze Drum. Okay. Thank you for that. Yeah, it was really good. Sure. And then finally, where can folks learn more about with you, connect with you? Maybe share the name of your podcast? Sure. Uh, podcast is instructional coaching with Miss B. You can listen anywhere you listen to podcast. And then you could also listen on the website at buzzing with miss b.com. And so I try to get the episodes on there as well, um, every week. But you know, there's like over 250 episodes so you know, there's bound to be a topic you're interested in. Amazing. Thank you so much. And we, um, when that book comes out, we can always like link, even if, oh, thanks, this episode airs before it, we can go back and link it so that just people can find the book and we will keep you all posted on that. Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you, Christy. This was absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance. Thank you. I'm so glad that I got to talk with you today. |
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
March 2026
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