270. Not Your Granny's Grammar with Patty McGee

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In this episode, we talk with Patty McGee, a literary consultant and author of the new book, Not Your Granny’s Grammar. Patty discusses how traditional grammar instruction can be detrimental, and emphasizes the need for a new approach that involves sentence construction, expansion, and combining as more effective methods. 

She introduces the concept of viewing grammar as a tool for expression, similar to a painter's brush, allowing for different styles and making meaning on the page. 


The Big Dream 

Patty McGee dreams of an educational environment where students find themselves and become who they're meant to be by following their passions, being loved and valued for who they are. She envisions a space where writing, and grammar, can be a powerful tool for identity exploration and voice. 

Mindset Shifts Required

To achieve this vision, educators must reframe their understanding of grammar, moving away from viewing it as a strict set of rules. Instead, they should recognize that grammar is for expression and to create meaning on the page. 

Grammar falls into three buckets: spoken grammar, book grammar, and standard grammar. One is not better than the other, but all work together to convey meaning and message.

Another key mindset shift is to move away from immediacy of expectations, or the idea that it’s taught once on a worksheet and immediately known and implemented. It takes time.

Action Steps  

To start shifting from traditional modes of grammar instruction, educators can follow these suggested steps: 

Step 1: Understand that traditional grammar instruction doesn’t work, and may have the opposite of the intended effect. Instead of focusing on the identification of parts of speech, it’s most effective to focus on teaching grammar through sentence construction, expansion, and combining. 

Step 2: Redesign your unit arcs to follow how people learn: first, through surface learning, then deep learning, and then transfer. This is in contrast to teaching grammar in units (e.g. learning about nouns first, then verbs).
Step 3: Place students in long-term partnerships, pairing them up for the length of the unit or even the whole year. This helps students build off of conversations they’ve had before rather than mixing it up every time. 

Step 4: Reduce teacher talk time by posing thoughtful questions and allowing students to explore and experiment with grammar concepts.

Step 5: “Pause and ponder” -- build in time for reflection, enabling students to ponder what they've learned and spark curiosity about new grammar concepts. 

Challenges?

Educators often face challenges in feeling comfortable and knowledgeable about grammar concepts themselves. Without a strong foundation, teachers may hesitate to experiment with new instructional approaches. Seeking out resources, like the grammar guide in Patty’s book and open-ended learning opportunities, can help educators build their confidence.

One Step to Get Started 

To begin integrating these new strategies right away, educators can start by using grammar manipulatives. By selecting sentences they enjoy and having students break them down and rearrange them, teachers can create an interactive grammar experience that is both fun and educational. This simple yet effective technique helps to engage students in learning grammar through creativity and collaboration.

Stay Connected

You can keep up with Patty McGee on her website. 

To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guest is sharing Master Any Content Through the Power of Grammar with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 270 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 3:41 “ Grammar is for expression. Grammar is meant to create meaning on the page. Grammar is not a static set of rules.”
• 5:02 “ I often equate grammar to a painter's paintbrush. The way that a painter is expressing themselves in their art and how they use different brush strokes to create what they're envisioning. And grammar is the same type of tool for writers, and it can really be something that empowers voices.” 
• 16:12 “ We recommend in the book that it's 10 minutes, three to five times a week. And so instead of thinking about them as lessons, thinking about them as grammar experiences that kids are having. If we can't fit into that 10 minutes, we should maybe reflect on how much of the talking we're doing during those 10-minute pockets.”

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:​

TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Patty McGee, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast.
Patty McGee: Ah, thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Lindsay Lyons: I am really excited. And so one of the questions that I've been opening episodes with is just, like, what's on your mind today, or what should we keep in mind, uh, you know, as an audience? And what's on my mind is your book, Not Your Granny's Grammar-
which is excellent, and we were just talking about this. But it is, it is truly transformational, and not at all your granny's grammar. Yes. So I'm really excited to talk about your book today. Anything on your mind that you want people to be thoughtful about, or you wanna share with folks?
Patty McGee: Oh, gosh. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy that my book is on your mind, and I am thinking even more about the possibilities of grammar in other areas, and how we can reframe the way we think about it and the way that people approach it.
And it's, it's something definitely, definitely on my mind.
Lindsay Lyons: Well, it i- it comes through powerfully in the book, and, and we'll get to all of that. The first question, though, I wanna kinda zoom out and think about, you know, Dr. Bettina Love talks about the idea of freedom dreaming by saying their dream is grounded in the critique of injustice, which is-
Patty McGee: Yes
Lindsay Lyons: such a great way to think of it. And, and I'm wondering, what is that big dream that you hold for education?
Patty McGee: Yes. My- Dream, I'm sorry, just, um, I've got so many and I'm trying to prioritize. Um, it's, it's really, I want it to be a place That students find themselves and become who they're meant to be by following their passions, by being loved to pieces and valued for all that they are.
That's in a nutshell.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that. And I, and you know, as I was reading your work, I thought about, um, Dr. Asao Aanoi's work, who was also on the podcast, and he talks about, you know, like, writing specifically as a writing professor, right? Writing is often this, this way that, you know, kids are able to express their very unique voices and, and feel valued.
Particularly, I mean, his talk was around, you know, assessment of writing and stuff, and so thinking about how we do that in a way that's affirming of students.
Patty McGee: Yes.
Lindsay Lyons: But, like, how powerful writing as an avenue for kind of identity exploration and voice is. It... and, and being able to, like, love someone to pieces as, as a- Yeah
student. You know, I- I'm thinking about all of my students who I felt even more connected with once I read their writing- Yeah ... and forms of expression, and that grammar oftentimes can be such, the way that we typically think of it, can be such a hindrance to that voice and that expression and that love.
And, um, I'm, I'm just curious, is there kind of like a, a mindset shift that you think, you know, teachers, uh, anyone who's interfacing with grammar and young people, you know, we need to... used to think this, now we really need to shift over to this, and that's gonna unlock a lot of potential. Is there anything you would advise around that?
Patty McGee: There are multiple things I will, again, try to prioritize. I think one of the biggest shifts, um, is going to be around what grammar is for. Grammar is for expression. Grammar is meant to create meaning on the page. Grammar is not a static set of rules. And when we think of grammar in three buckets, where we have spoken grammar, book grammar, and standard grammar, I think we start to look at grammar not as a superior goal of, let's say, the language that makes us sound intelligent, but rather one form of, of, of code switching, basically.
So, like, uh, spoken grammar changes wherever you live, whatever culture, um, is yours. That is spoken grammar, and it is just as valuable as book grammar and as standard grammar. And I just think of standard grammar as the grammar standards that we are charged with teaching. And it's constantly changing. So knowing that spoken grammar and book grammar are having an influence on grammar, standard grammar, so having that type of shift of, like, grammar as style, as making meaning on the page, I often equate grammar, uh, to a painter's paintbrush, the way that a painter is
expressing themselves in their art and how they use different brush strokes, uh, to create what they're envisioning. And grammar is the same type of tool for writers, and it can really be something, um, that empowers voices. Like you were saying, we discover more about our students when we read their writing.
I also think a mind shift that is necessary is that we move from this immediacy of expectations. Like, often we have, uh, the expectation that, okay, we did this worksheet, now we're all supposed to know it and use it. And so if you wouldn't mind, I have a great quote from Jeff Anderson that I'd love to read.
Uh, he says, "What about experimentation, play, approximation? Grammar and mechanics shape meaning, and as in all language endeavors, we must make mistakes to move toward correctness. Where's the bridge between getting started and stretching with grammar and mechanics and being wrong?"
Lindsay Lyons: That's so good. Yes. Oh my gosh, I love the artistry that you- Mm-hmm
I mean, I s- I see and have read the language of the artist throughout your book as well.
Patty McGee: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Lyons: And I love this analogy because I think a lot of times we think about art as y- fine arts, painting, drawing, whatever, and we don't always include writing in that. And it- Mm-hmm ... uh, I mean, maybe we include poetry.
We don't usually include much more than that, if that at all, and it's so beautiful that this is just distinctly including Yeah ... all of the writing in the art world. And so I, I love that. I'm curious if we can talk a bit about your book. First off, the research at the front that traditional grammar instruction doesn't help and could actually harm, could you tell us just a little bit about that?
'Cause that was news to me that I found interesting.
Patty McGee: Yes. So I'm actually gonna go to that part because there's so much research there. Um, it's decades deep how much traditional grammar instruction, A, doesn't work, um, and B, can actually have the reverse effect that it's intended for. Uh, I go through so many different research, um, research studies, like, uh, just a meta-analysis on grammar instruction, um, where they quoted, "If schools insist upon teaching the identification of parts of speech, the parsing or diagramming of sentences, or other concepts of traditional grammar as many still do, they cannot defend it as a means of improving the quality of writing."
That comes from Hillocks and Smith. I mean, it can't be more straightforward than that, but just the majority of research, um, that I shared here is really backing up that same statement. But then there's hope in Graham's research around the way that we can teach grammar, and the three most effective ways of teaching grammar is sentence construction, sentence expansion, and sentence combining, because the sentence is the building block of all writing, and it's the container of all parts of speech.
Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely. And I, I would love to dive into some pieces of your book and how you talk about, like, going after that, kind of pursuing what that research finding said. One of the most fantastic things I love is a good arc, and I, I love your kind of arc of your grammar study unit. I just thought, I mean, even as
I mean, I taught literacy and social studies, and I was like, "Oh, you could do this in social studies, too. I imagine you could do an element of this in math or science as well." Like, it's so beautifully constructed around inquiry and student learning. And anyways, I'm talking enough. Can you talk us through- Yeah.
It's okay ... kind of the arc of your, your units?
Patty McGee: Yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, the concept of teaching grammar in units, I think, is rather unique, that we often in the past have done, "Okay, we're going to identify nouns." And then we're going to identify verbs, and then we go on to some other isolated, um, type of experience.
But the, the arc of a unit of study, um, in grammar follows Hattie's research on how people learn, that we learn first through surface learning, then deep learning, and then transfer, and that's how we've set up the units. At least the f- chapter three is a full-on unit day by day that we really want to suggest we follow very closely.
Um, but then the other chapters are using the same blueprint of the unit, and then it's kind of choose your own adventure. So we start off with this surface learning, and if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to share a metaphor that I often refer to to talk about these phases of learning. So a number of years ago, um, my mother-in-law, who is from Ireland, she came over when she was 20, and she decided it was no longer her job to be cooking Thanksgiving dinner.
Um, and she told us as much, and she was right. She, you know, there's no Thanksgiving in Ireland. So what we did was we decided we would, uh, take over, and we were going to fry a turkey, which is something my neck of the woods it's, it was, like, all the rage at the time. So our surface learning was looking at videos of how to do it, getting the materials, looking at what not to do, how to avoid, um, some of the more difficult parts of it.
We tried it out but with water instead of oil. We just did all of this naturally for ourselves, and then it turned to deep learning, where we fried a turkey and it was good. We fried a turkey again, and it was even better. And then the third time, we were like, "We're pro at this. Let's try some other meats and some vegetables perhaps," and that was our transfer time.
So it's something that we naturally do, and that's the same way we set up the unit, uh, for grammar, was that we really harness, um, that surface learning through immersion experiences, and then we have different areas of focus that we get deeper and deeper with, um, just like our turkey. And then it sets up for transfer, and there's time to create things, um, that we'll bring to when we're writing, whether it's in different writing types or different content areas.
And then the transfer just continues and spirals through.
Lindsay Lyons: I love the structure so much, especially how you break it down, and I love the, there's a structured unit as well as in the book that choose your own adventure style, which I think is very- Mm-hmm ... freeing for a lot of teachers who like that autonomy to be creative.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I also love that you included a bunch of kind of t- I would call them, like, teacher tips throughout.
Patty McGee: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Lyons: Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, one of them, I'll just share a couple of the ones that I liked, and maybe you could expand upon them. Sure. I love the tip to have students be in pairs potentially for the whole year, as opposed to constantly mixing.
Mm-hmm. Love that. Uh, just the advice to not talk a lot, and maybe just ask a question instead when students are grappling and learning. Um, the pacing, like, just the idea of constructing within a unit, you know, of grammar study, but also to build reflection in as a valuable lesson or lessons within the unit.
Um, I don't know if you wanna expand on any of those, but I just really liked those a lot.
Patty McGee: Y- yes. I'll be happy to expand on any and all of them. Um, having partnerships and long-term partnerships, which, uh, preferably would be at least one unit, if not the entire year, is an opportunity, number one, for grammar out loud.
Because standard grammar isn't something that we're used to hearing. And so when we are speaking, um, and practicing and playing with, uh, say, building compound sentences, we're not only seeing it, but we're also hearing it. And then in partnerships, we're co-building this grammar know-how. If we're talking to somebody new every day, we're not building off of the conversations we've had before.
And so therefore, long-term partnerships are extremely helpful for grammar learning What were the other two that you just mentioned? Um, one
Lindsay Lyons: was teachers not talking, maybe posing a question instead.
Patty McGee: Yes. So I have found, and I'm guilty of this myself, uh, that sometimes we as educators feel compelled to talk a lot, and also to do so with a very strict, maybe inflexible set of slides that we adhere to, and therefore are not as responsive to what students are showing us that they need.
Um, and because this is so, this approach is so inquiry based, there's a greater chance of students learning if we pose a challenge or a question. So let's say students are using a grammar manipulative where they're creating compound sentences, and they didn't accurately do so. Maybe they left out a comma.
Um, I might say instead, "That's almost a compound sentence. See if you can find what you're missing." And usually the other partner is like, "I told you you needed a comma." You know, it's always something in that kind of way. But if we are doing all of the talking, it's, it takes away from the experiences that we want kids to have with grammar.
And I also, we recommend in the book that it's 10 minutes, three to five times a week. And so instead of thinking about them as lessons, thinking about them as grammar experiences that kids are having, if we can't fit into that 10 minutes, we should maybe reflect on how much of the talking we're doing during those 10-minute pockets
Lindsay Lyons: That's a really good cue for teacher reflection.
And then th- actually Mm-hmm ... that's a good segue into the third thing, was building in reflection to, as a grammar experience.
Patty McGee: Uh, I might, I don't know. This whole book I have favorites, but one of my favorites is this reflection, that we pause and ponder, um, is what I call it. And the things that come out of students' mouths is just pure gold.
Like a, a fourth grade classroom, um, after they had learned about simple and compound sentences and independent clauses, they were like, "Can you have more than two independent clauses in a compound sentence?" And that's accessing what's usually a seventh grade standard. It, but they're curious about it.
They're wondering. Um, another, another that comes up is often, "I really wanna use the word because. It would make more sense in, in some of these sentences I've been creating. How do I do that?" And that leads us right into complex sentences. And just creating space for curiosity in those reflections of, of solidifying what we know just by pausing and, and I often say that, uh, reflection is the stickiest glue for the brain.
And so we're kind of, like, solidifying that, and then using that as a springboard to think, "What do I want to know more about?" I think it's something very unique in grammar
Lindsay Lyons: I, I love that. Like, all of the pieces of that are so powerful, and often I think reflection gets skipped the quickest- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
when we're stressed for time, pacing calendars are full.
Patty McGee: Yeah.
Lindsay Lyons: And then it's, "Oh, well, that's not direct instruction," or, you know, uh, and I guess not just the reflection- Yeah ... but all the other parts that are not direct instruction are the things that get cut, and- Yeah ... the whole thing together is what makes the journey effective.
Patty McGee: Exactly.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah.
Patty McGee: Exactly.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm wondering if there are maybe one or two big challenges that you've seen teachers encounter as they try to shift away from traditional grammar and to do something like this, and how you might, you know, coach someone through that challenge.
Patty McGee: Yes. So I have done a boatload of anecdotal research around what are the biggest challenges for educators, um, and it is the educators' knowledge and comfort with grammar in general.
I was with a group of teachers this week, and we were working on a unit, and we got to, uh, complex sentences, and w- we had to pause, and they were so open, which is really helpful, and they're like, "I don't remember these rules. I, I didn't know there were two forms of complex sentences." And- Just to refer to the book, um, you can find answers to your questions about grammar in lots of places, on the internet and, you know, lots of handbooks and things like that.
But in the back of our book, my co-author, Tim Donahue, just took his, like, brilliant grammar brain and gave us a whole tutorial in language that's accessible to understand grammatical concepts that we don't, that are very commonly misunderstood. And he even has in here, I just love this, like, concept that he came up with and how he executed it.
He created videos of him teaching these grammatical concepts, and he has, uh, he set up in his basement a dry erase board, and his kids, uh, he has three sons between the ages of fourth grade and eighth grade, and they helped record them. So the type of conversations that go on in the Donahue home, like he told me that one of his kids came home and said, "Do you know that so-and-so used a semicolon today?"
So like what he created back there is just so accessible that he has a fourth grader commenting on semicolons. You know it's, it's that, it's that good. And that's also just how we partnered up. He has a way of explaining grammar that's like no other that we've ever seen, and at first came to light back, uh, about 10 years ago when he was a supervisor, um, of humanities.
And he was teaching us about grammar, and I was there to consult. And all of us in the room were like, "Whoa, we did not know that." And that is one of the hardest parts of, um, teaching grammar is we don't need to know it all, but that's something that's stopping us.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Actually, I, I think that is a very common thing in any inquiry-based pedagogy is- Mm-hmm
what do I do when I don't have an answer to the question the kid is asking me in this moment?
Patty McGee: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Lyons: And w- I think part of that is, you know, have those resources ready so you can consult even in the moment. Yeah. Perhaps in something as great as, as the resource that you have, that's probably easily findable.
But even in a larger question or if you don't have, you know, the book with you, what do you think is a good response for a teacher in that moment if you don't have the answer ready?
Patty McGee: I think it is, "I don't know. Let's find out together."
Lindsay Lyons: I love that. And then come back.
Patty McGee: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Lyons: Yep. I love it. Cool. I, I am really excited to just know that this book is out in the world-
and that people are going to implement it, and that kids might actually love grammar now, which is super cool. Yes. I'm curious to know one thing, you know, if people are o- ordering the book and it's on the way, like, what's something that they could do? They just listened to the episode today, they're gonna walk into their classrooms.
Is there anything they could do right away that's like a one quick implementable start to, to practicing grammar in this new way that's not like we're gonna outline a whole unit of study that we're gonna start later?
Patty McGee: Yes. I think the most impactful, easy things that, um, teachers can do is to think of grammar manipulatives.
That is one of my favorite parts of the book as well as in partnerships. Let's say very simply, um, do some sentences in a sentence, um, or sentences from a sentence, where we take a sentence or two that we really like. We, um, open up a doc and copy it onto that doc. We then, uh, enlarge the font, cut out each word, and in partnerships just make sentences together.
It's super simple. There's n- very little prep to that. Kids can help cut or you can cut, but you only need one collection per pair or trio. And I think starting with something as simple as that can be very, very useful. I also have a blog post on, on my website. There's a lot of resources, but I believe it's also, um, through NCTE, and it is a series of just starting with compound sentences, like getting your feet wet, um, day by day, four or five days of grammar experiences.
So that's also an easy-to-get resource.
Lindsay Lyons: That's incredible. Thank you for having that available for people. And I love just the idea of grammar manipulatives. Yes. I had to reread that, like, four times, 'cause I was like, "Wait, what?" I was, "Oh, got it." Like, so accessible, but I never associate the term manipulatives with English.
I'm always like, "Oh, the ma- that's a math thing."
Patty McGee: Yeah.
Lindsay Lyons: I love it.
Patty McGee: Yeah. Yeah. I just love it too, and I'm so jazzed by it that I keep creating more of them. Like, when they come to me, um, I create them, but then I also see kids creating their own versions of manipulatives. Like, it's, it's just amazing to see.
Like, there was a second grade I was in, um, demoing, you know, some grammar, uh, experiences, and they created, like, a kit on how to create compound sentences with directions, unifix cubes. Like, it was like, "What on earth is happening here?" It was so amazing. So yeah, the whole concept I think kids really take off with.
And they're all so simple. We don't need bling. We don't need fancy things. We don't need... We just cut through the complexity of it all, and it, the simplicity is really where that power is, is found.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that point because what really drew me to what you were saying at first was find a sentence that you like.
Mm-hmm. And this idea that reading is connected to writing is connected to grammar- Mm-hmm ... understanding, and learning is just so beautiful that I can read whatever I need to read out in the world for school and find something I love, and then dig into that or play with that. Like, that's fun as opposed to- Mm-hmm
I'm doing a worksheet. So.
Patty McGee: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah. Okay, to close us out, this question is purely for fun, although it can relate to your work as well. Okay. What is something that you have been learning about lately?
Patty McGee: Oh, I have been learning, this is so funny. I've done a deep dive into circus history. I just have a curiosity about it, and I guess that's an apropos word to be using when it comes to the circus.
Um, I started to create a text set for a school for us to experience, um, text sets and, and what they can do for us, and I was like, "I think I might go in that direction." And I haven't stopped. And we have a text set that I use, but I'm still curious about it. It's just so fascinating and so many dimensions to it, like of things that are so wrong that we realize today, but then also, like the space of inclusion for people who didn't find it in the world.
It's, it's fascinating.
Lindsay Lyons: Wow. That feels very fascinating and nuanced. I'm- Now I'm interested. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. The last question is really just where can people connect with you, learn more about you, get your book?
Patty McGee: So you can go to my website, which is pattymcgee.org. Make sure you spell Patty with a Y, because Patty with an I is a skateboarder, and I can't do that.
Um, s- and on there you'll find lots and lots and lots of curated, created resources, downloadables. Um, and I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Patty, thank you so much for this conversation and for putting your book out in the world.
Patty McGee: Oh my gosh, it's a complete honor to be here with you, uh, and, and talk with you.
It's, it's just a professional dream, so thank you.

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