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In this episode, we’re talking with Doug Bolton, PhD, who is a clinical psychologist, educator, and author of the book Untethered: Creating Connected Families, Schools, and Communities to Raise A Resilient Generation. Against a backdrop of current all-time high stress levels for both students and teachers, Doug emphasizes the importance of focusing on relationships over achievements and how the pressure to excel in academic settings can undermine mental health.
He also introduces the "Circle of Courage" model, highlights current research in the field, and shares meaningful mindset shifts from focusing on data and test scores to nurturing relational and personal growth. The Big Dream Doug’s big dream is to redefine what it means to be successful. He wants to see our system go beyond traditional metrics such as test scores and school selectivity and help students grow with robust intrinsic motivation, grounded in community, and encouraged by healthy emotional and social connections. Mindset Shifts Required There are some significant mindset shifts to move the focus away from data-driven success towards personal development and wellness. This includes reducing the emphasis on test scores, allowing children to experience and manage stress constructively, and recognizing the vital role of relationships in achieving holistic well-being. Action Steps While many people might say that they want kids to be holistically well, there is still a lot of pressure in the academic setting. This causes high stress for students, but also teachers and parents in the system, too. To start redefining our metrics of success for children or students, Doug encourages educators or leaders to start here with some of these action steps. Step 1: Understand the research. Achievement testing has been found to undermine mental health and cause higher levels of stress and anxiety… without producing higher test scores. The system is broken, and understanding that is the first step to change. Step 2: Engage in community-building activities within educational environments. Research shows that a sense of belonging through strong relationships is essential to all the metrics we care about: mental health, academic performance, attendance, etc. Step 3: Implement schedules that include “pause and ponder” times (a concept borrowed from Mary Jo Barrett) for children and adults alike to rest their nervous systems. To really engage with the world, we need to give our nervous system a rest through good sleep, quiet time, and less pressure, so that we can then go forward and learn, engage, and grow. This can be implemented in a school or home setting. Step 4: Use the Circle of Courage model, which is born of Native American tradition, and emphasizes the four main needs we get from community: belonging, mastery, independence, and generosity. When a child is struggling, we ask, where is the circle broken? What do we need to focus on? Doug unpacks this model in further detail in his book Challenges? One of the main challenges highlighted is overcoming societal norms that prioritize academic achievement as a sole indicator of future success. There's also the challenge of reshaping institutional policies that place undue stress on students and educators, potentially leading to burnout and disengagement. One Step to Get Started Doug’s biggest action step to start putting this all into motion is the pause and ponder. He recommends using family dinners as one way to do this in the home, or for educators to purposefully build it into their classroom schedules. These moments to pause should be protected and prioritized before scheduling other additional activities. Stay Connected You can stay connected with Doug Bolton on his website, and grab a copy of his book to dive deeper into everything we discussed today: Untethered. To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Co-Creating Class Agreements slide deck with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 260 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Doug Bolton, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Doug Bolton: Lindsay, it's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Lindsay Lyons: I am so glad that y- we're both here at the same time talking about this. This is so important, and I, I just ... I, I am really excited f- because you talk about, like, you know, building resilience and, and, and building resilience in kids. Um, I also think about, like, how stressed out a lot of w- l- like, children now are. I mean- Speaker 3: Yeah ... Lindsay Lyons: you know, across the years certainly, but you read about the anxious generation, and that's, like, very- Yeah ... top of mind for me as well. So I'm wondering, as we jump into the conversation today, is there something on your mind that you wanna bring to the forefront or that people should just know as they engage with the episode? Doug Bolton: Well, thank you. You know, I think that the thing that strikes me the most as I think about this work and the crisis of resilience is it's not just kids who are struggling right now. Um, you know, the teachers, there's never been a time when teachers have been so stressed. The teachers, Gallup found that K12 teachers are the most stressed profession in America right now. And the, and the surgeon general recently released a, uh, advisory for parents, that just being a parent puts you at risk for mental health problems. So I guess I, I wanna say the whole system. I think kids are the down- are kind of downstream of a system that we've created that's stressing everyone out. And I, I guess that would be my hope, is to take a look at that whole system as we talk about this today. Lindsay Lyons: That's a really good segue into my next question. Hmm. So I think, uh, you know, Dr. Bettina Love talks about dreams grounded in the critique of injustice in, in terms of- Yeah ... dreaming. And I am wondering, like, what is that dream you hold for young people, whether it's families, whether it's through the education system? Like, yeah, what's that dream for you? Doug Bolton: Yeah, no, I love, I love that quote. Um, I'd never heard that before. It's beautiful. You know, I think my, my dream is that we can redefine what it means to be successful, um, and, and in doing so, recognize that, um, our metrics for success, which has typically been, um, achievement test scores, um, um, enrollment at a high-achieving school, um, whatever that looks like, um, are things that have, um, really, I think, um, been damaging to everybody in the system. The, the people who find that hard, find it hard for them to reach those goals, um, because their, their brain isn't suited to, to how we do education and they're ... Um, or the people who are really good at it who then begin to define themselves by their achievement and not by who they are, and parents who begin to define themselves by how successful their kids are, um, educators who define themselves by how many of their students go on to high-achieving schools, high, I mean, highly selective schools. And so, so I guess what I would like to do, uh, um, a lot of the research and reading I've been doing now has been, um, really focused on- How when we set a goal for something, when we say, "This is what we want," oftentimes, um, uh, uh, in order to, um, um, uh, I think they call it obliquity, which is this, this, um, when you're seeking profit as an organization, you end up oftentimes tanking the organization. When you seek high-quality products, the, um, y- you know, the, um, the money comes, the money follows. But when we focus, it... So we've gotta be careful what we focus on. And what the research has said all along is that when we invest in relationships and our relational lives, um, we're happier, we're healthier, we're more successful, um, achievement comes easier. Um, when we focus on achievement, um, all of a sudden those are the things that are the first things to go, and, and it's ended up with, I think, a, a whole system that is overly stressed. So did I answer the question with my dream? So my dream is we redefine what it means to be successful as a child. I think that that would be, that would be what I would say. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I love how you painted a nice holistic picture of how that touches everyone, right? Yeah. And that touches everyone, but all children, but all people involved in children's lives as well, and I- Yeah ... I love that dream. I know you mentioned a lot about the research, and I know you've been steeped in the research for writing your book, for just all that you do. And, and I'm curious, can you share, uh, you know, a, a little bit more about any of the research you've learned on, you know, mental health? And like, oh, y- you talked about, you know, all spectrums in terms of achievement from a school perspective- Speaker 3: Yeah ... Lindsay Lyons: um, of kids. Like, you know, why, why is it so important that we take this seriously? Because a lot of times I think even though people have that dream in the back of their mind maybe, that they're like, "Yeah, I want my kid to be really, like, mentally well and, and, and holistically well." However, I feel also this stress around schools, and, like, I want them to be successful there, and there's this- Yeah tug. So why is it important that we do focus on, on redefining that success? Doug Bolton: Well, well, so it's, it's an interesting thing. The, um, the research, um, on attending a high- highly selective school is not, uh, is not the, does not, um, um, suggest that people who attend highly achieving, uh, high, uh, highly, um, highly selective schools are gonna be any more successful in life. There, there's a... And so if we take a look at that research, for instance, um, you know, kids don't learn more at a, um, highly selective s- college. Um, I'm from Illinois. It, um, you don't learn more if you go to a Northwestern versus a Northern Illinois. Um, and there is one thing that determines how much someone learns in college, and it's not how selective or how, um, high, uh, um, highly achieving the sc- the college is. Do you know what that is? Lindsay Lyons: No. Doug Bolton: How much you study Lindsay Lyons: Oh, nice. Doug Bolton: Right? So, so- Yeah ... uh, uh, wherever you go, if you study and invest, you're gonna learn, right? Uh, in, in a lot of these high, um, highly selective schools, y- you are learning from, um, teaching assistants and research assistants as much as you're doing anything. So, so, so that's one thing. D- do you make more money? No, you don't make more money. They did some interesting research where they had, um, uh... I don't know how they find this research, but they, uh, they took a look at people who got into high, uh, highly selective schools but couldn't go for one reason or another, and ended up going to a less selective school, like near, uh, uh, near home or whatever because they couldn't leave, versus people who did end up going to highly selective schools. And, uh, um, 10 years later, they, they were making, uh, uh, there was no difference in the money. The, the interesting thing was that the people who went to the highly selective schools often felt underpaid because, uh, you know... So, uh, so these are... So the, the things that, um, that we think are the drivers of success are not the drivers of success, and but they are the drivers of stress, and, and our desire to get kids into these highly, um, high, highly selective schools, to get them into AP classes, to get them to believe that they've gotta be in the top 10% of their class, the, um, worrying about homework, worrying about, uh, about these grades as if this is a, that they're, uh, they're either gonna get or lose a ticket to success in life. None of that holds, and, and yet this is what drives so much of, um, parent, teacher, and student stress and anxiety. Lindsay Lyons: Wow, that was a really good synthesis of, like- ... why you shouldn't focus on this, and why you should focus on this instead. Thank you. Um, I love that you talked about investing in relationships a little while ago. Mm-hmm. And I would love if you could expand on that. Like, what, what is the kind of mental health value or the, you know, value in general of doing that, i- investing in relationships and community? Doug Bolton: Yeah. You know, it's a, it's an interesting thing. Um, there's a, uh, um, a, a metaphor. It's a public health parable actually that I think is a metaphor for our, um, for our mental health crisis today. And, uh, these two people are sitting by a river having a picnic, and, uh, and they look up and there's a child in the river drowning. And they dive in, and they get this child to safety, and they're exhausted. And they look up, and there are two more kids in the water. They go back in, and they get those kids to safety, and then they turn around and the river is filled with these kids who need their help. And, uh, and one of them just dives in and starts pulling kids out of the river, and the other one goes up on shore. And the one in the water says, "What are you doing? I can't save these kids on my own." And the one on shore says, "I'm going upstream. We've gotta figure out why these kids are falling in." And- And, you know, when we take a look at what's upstream of mental health, what's upstream in resilience is our interpersonal connections and relationships. So, um, a couple, a couple of things is they, is, that are r- related and connected to this. First of all, when you're embedded in a belonging community, um, you're more motiv- motivated to learn, you perform better academically, you have better attendance, you're healthier, you have better mental health, right? All of the things that we worry most about. Um, so... And, um, for the kids who are s- most stressed, the kids-- it buffers, um, the impact of stress and trauma. And so, so when I-- if I was to look for a school now, it wouldn't be based on test scores, it would be based on where are the communities that are going to be healthiest, where my child can ex- fully experience belonging. So that's, so that's one bit of research. And then, um, the other is the Grant Study. Um, and the Grant Study was done in Boston starting in 1938, and they took sophomores from Ca- from Harvard, um, and then they, uh, and then they wanted to expand it. So they had two hundred sophomores from Harvard, but then they, um, expanded it to people in Boston more generally, men in Boston more generally. So it was a, it was a male cohort of about seven hundred or eight hundred people. And what they wanted to do is they wanted to see what makes people happy and healthy in their lives. So this is a longitudinal study, one of the most famous longitudinal studies they have. They're still studying the people who are still alive. And John F. Kennedy was one of the people who was, uh, um, was in, originally in the study. So, um, so they've had, they've got eighty, ninety years of research now and, uh, and, and what they say is that, um, if we take a look at what leads to, to health and happiness and, and success, it is not, um, money. It's, it, it is, um, relationships. And, uh, the, one of the, um, people who ran the study for a while, um, um, George Vaillant says, um, you know, uh, twenty million dollars, eighty years of the Grant Study comes down to one five-word conclusion. Um, it is, uh, happiness is love, full stop. And so, so if we want our kids to be happy, if we want our kids to be well-adjusted, we invest in relationships because it, uh, because it's a false promise when we think that, uh, achievement or s- selection to a highly selective school is what's gonna get us there. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I, it makes me think of just, like, the m- micro moves that I've been making as a parent lately to kind of make sense of current events or things like that. Sure. It can be really hard, particularly with young... I mean, my kid's almost four at this point. Yeah. So it's, like, hard to translate that, and I've been trying to be like, "Well, we believe that people are more important than money, and some people are making choices because they think money are more important than people." Speaker 3: Yeah. And Lindsay Lyons: that's, like, one of the ways to grapple with this, this reality and this hard reality. But I love that it's backed up by, by science, is actually, yes, people are more important than money to your happiness and wellbeing. Doug Bolton: Exa- exactly. And, and, you know, I think that one of the things that's really hard about, um, about what's happened in our school systems, um, is it, it's, it's everybody's drinking from the same water at some level. So at, at four years old, it's, it's one challenge. But at 14 years old, it's another challenge, and at, at 24 years old, it's another challenge. Because in so many ways, and I think, um, as a society, as a culture, things, uh, uh, you know, K12 education really began to change, I think, from, um, in 2002 with the passage of No Child Left Behind. And, and, uh, and really what No Child Left Behind, and I think it was well-meaning. It, it's saying we want people to achieve, right? And, uh, um, we, we want everybody to learn, and we want... And the, the goal, the way we decided to measure that was through, um, test scores of, of high-pressure tests. And so, um, teachers began to believe that this is how we define success and growth and learning. Um, kids started to believe that this is how we do it. Um, parents started to believe that this is how we do it. And so now we seek out those schools with, that are the highest achieving schools. And, and if you take a look at, um, the research on high-achieving schools, what you'll find, and this i- this really came out in 2019. The Robert Wood Johnson Na- Foundation named the top environmental conditions harming adolescent wellness, and we knew the first three: trauma, discrimination, poverty. But the fourth is this excessive pressure to excel. And so all of a sudden, people are mortgaging their homes to get their kids into these high-achieving schools, and yet just being enrolled in a high-achieving school puts you at risk three to seven times, um, higher for anxiety, depression, and substance use. And so, and we've got 25 years of research now on, okay, so did it move the dial, all this focus on test scores? All this anxiety we put on people, we must be learning more, right? And the fact is that, that, that the, the, our test scores have stayed flat. And so, and so this idea that, um, that this focus on achievement testing, it, it re- It undermines our mental health, and it doesn't work. And I just wonder, when is it that we're gonna realize, and, and why would we develop a system and stay with a system where every stakeholder is experiencing significant stress, parents, teachers, and students? And, and yet we continue to, to grab onto this and say, "No, we just need to come up with a new secret for how we get these test scores up," instead of saying, "Let's not look at test scores anymore." Um, one last thing. I'm sorry, but I'll, I'll, uh... But, you know, it, it's fascinating to me because, um, you take a look, and 15 years ago, the head of HR at Google said, "We are no longer looking at, at, um, grades in our work." They say-- 'Cause what he said was, um, it's a, when we look at grades, there's no correlation between success. So, so, uh, you know, it's not showing up in business, 'cause what, what happens is what we do is we get people who are highly compliant, and the people who are highly compliant do well in our schools, but that's not what businesses are looking for, especially in this age of, of, uh, of business and, and work, is we want people to come in with new ideas and, and new solutions to problems instead of just saying, "Tell me what to do, and I'll do it." Lindsay Lyons: Oh my gosh, that was a great synthesis of like why it is so important that we do things differently. And so now my questions are gonna change to kind of how do we- Yeah ... do it, like how do we... Do you have suggestions for teachers or families or both to kind of... I, I think you had talked about like, um, positive stress in some of your work, I think I was reading. And it- Yeah ... to increase that positive stress but decrease the toxic stress, to build that resilience up for kids. Doug Bolton: Yeah. Yeah. So there's a, a couple different things that show up for me. The first, um, is a model that I talk about in my book. It's called the Circle of Courage, and it's, um, it's a, um... It's actually born of Native American tradition. Um, um, the research and the work of, uh, they had a, um, a group of three researchers, psychologists, and one of them wa- grew up in the Lakota tradition. And he was able to say, "Oh, the research we're coming up with about what, what is, um, what are the qualities of a community that support resilience are the same things that were part of my tradition." So they call it the Circle of Courage, and what they talk about is that there are four main things that we need to experience from our community in order to be successful. And the first is a sense of belonging, um, that we, we matter. We feel cared for. We feel- Safe within this community. The second is mastery, and, and this is where kind of positive stress can come in, that, that we want kids to experience stress. That the only way for us to learn how to manage stress is to experience stress, and so we wanna be able to have kids experience stress, that that's essential. And I think that's what I, uh, uh, that's one of the things I really like about the anxious generation, is it speaks to how we, uh, w- and our protectiveness, um, um, w- kids don't learn how to cope with stress 'cause we don't let them experience it. Adults swoop in too fast, right? And so, so, but mastery is getting better at something that's meaningful to me, and, and it allows me to then suffer setbacks and stay engaged, right? Um, um, it's a, you know, Csikszentmihalyi's kind of, uh, idea of flow, right? That that's, to me, that's kind of our mastery piece. The next is independence, this idea that I can set a goal and I've got the skills I need to be able to achieve it, and, and people aren't gonna undermine my independence, right? They're gonna support me in, in growing and, and making decisions, and making mistakes that way, and learning from those. And then the last is generosity, and I think about generosity in a couple ways. One is that, um, that I've got gifts to give to the world, right? To recognize what those are, and to then have the opportunity to share those gifts. And so when I think about the circle of courage, what I think about is when a child is struggling, I think, you know, where's the circle broken? And then how can I, you know, if it's, uh, if, if people are saying, "I'm, uh, I'm lonely," um, or if there's bullying or I'm being bullied, that's a belonging issue, and then let's, let's, let's get at belonging. If somebody's saying, "I'm bored," or, "I'm overwhelmed, I can't do it," that's, that's probably a mastery issue. Um, you know, if people are becoming defiant or too, or too deferential, that's probably an, an independence issue. Um, if people are feeling very, uh, uh, they don't have anything to give to the world, there's a, um, that I'm a, um, you know, there's a, I'm, I'm useless or I'm worthless, then that's a, that's a generosity issue. And so, so that's one of the ways, that's one of the frames that I use to, uh, um, to think about things. And then the other frame that I use is, um, this idea that Ross Greene talks about, and Ross... uh, not Ross Greene, um, Bruce Perry, I'm sorry. Um, Bruce Perry in his work, um, you know, he's a, he's an expert in trauma, in childhood neuroscience, and, and what he says is that w- he calls it the three Rs. We need to be emotionally regulated and we need to be connected in relationship to access our full brains. And, and w- and when we struggle to access our best brains, our best selves, it's generally because we're dysregulated and/or we're feeling disconnected. And so, so the work in schools, I think, is to make sure that every class period we're giving time for kids to be emotionally, to emotionally regulate, to quiet that nervous system so that we can learn. And then the other is learning has always been social. And so how can I make sure that, um, that, um, that we're learning together, that it's not sitting down and doing, um, desk work or... That may be part of it, but making sure that a- in every classroom we're investing some time to emotionally regulate and to be connected in relationship. Lindsay Lyons: I love these frameworks, and I can envision many situations where I've had a child in one of my classes or my own child, like, having difficulties with any of these things. And so I imagine- Yeah ... you know, people who are engaging with this episode right now are also having those kids come to mind. Um, any advice you would have, if you wanna, like, take one of them, for instance, and say, like, "Okay, you know, someone is struggling with belonging," or, "Someone is struggling with dysregulation." Like, what's a, what's a move that a family member or a teacher could make once they hear, like, the diagnosis is kind of stage one, figure out where is this coming from, what's the issue, and then what do I do in response to it? Any advice? Doug Bolton: Yeah. You know, the, um, a couple things. The, there's a, a guy named Stuart Shanker, psychologist, um, in Canada, who I just love his work, and what he says is misbehavior is stress behavior. This is a, he wrote a book called Self-Reg that is a great book, and this has been really helpful for me as I, I, when I think about this, is that when... And this is true for me, too. When, um, there are times when, um, I handle a really stressful situation beautifully, right? And then the same situation could happen tomorrow, and I totally lose my cool. And it's not about the situation. It's about the stress that I'm bringing into the situation. And so the same is true for kids. And so the, the first step is not figuring out what can I do to change the behavior. It's I wonder what the stress is. I wonder why this is stressful now. So that's, that's one piece. The other piece that, that comes to mind is, um, the idea of, uh, that Mary Jo Barrett, she's a social worker, um, and a, an amazing thinker and practitioner in the world of, of supporting families who've experienced trauma. And, and she talks about the, the concept of pause and ponder. And so the, you know, the, what she's able to talk about is that, that our lives have a rhythm, that our nervous systems have a rhythm, that we're constantly expanding and contracting. And, and, but in order to expand, in order to fully engage with the world, we need to quiet that nervous system first and give it a, and give it a rest. And that there's, that when we're healthiest is there's this rhythm between, you know, we get a good night's sleep. That's the contraction, and then we expand. We, uh, if we're a student, we do our, uh, our work day. You know, we, we go to school. We, um, do what we need to do, and then we rest at night so that we can then be our best selves. Same thing for us. You know, we'd never say, "You've got an important meeting coming up. You should stay up all night working on the agenda," right? We'd say, "No, you need..." Because we know the idea is... And so, and we wanna make it predictable so that our nervous system knows that this is coming, you know? The, we play hard for a first half, but then we know this, uh, that there's gonna be halftime. We're gonna be able to rest, and then we engage again. And so this idea of, um, she calls these down times pausing and pondering. And what, what happens, I think what's happening, um, people who experience stress, their nervous system never gets a break, right? Because, because their nervous system is constantly activated, um, being hypervigilant about, um, what, what's happened and what could happen in the future. And when we push our kids, when we teach bell to bell, when we, um, when we push our kids and then they, they come home from school, they've gotta do homework, and then they've gotta go to their r- um, their travel team practice, and then they've gotta go to their tutoring, and then, uh, um, boom, boom, boom. And the, they're not getting those breaks. And as parents and as educators, when we're teaching bell to bell, and then we've gotta get our three kids to their three travel teams. And of course, then we gotta get 'em all to therapy 'cause everybody's, uh, nobody's doing well. Um, what I would say is what we need to do in our classrooms, what we need to do in our homes is to build in these predictable times when our nervous systems can quiet, and that will mean that we can then engage better later on. Lindsay Lyons: I love that, and I love that you're connecting that both to, to students or, um, like the school setting, like with teachers planning bell to bell and not planning for that pause and ponder, as well as for families. And I, I just am reminded of, like this week I think I was saying to my kid, like, "Oh yeah, when I was in high school, you know, I would have after school, like I would have practice or away games where I had to ride a bus for an hour and then play a game- Right and then watch the other team play the game and then go home, and then I would go to sleep." And he's like, "When did you have time to play, like to just relax and play?" Yeah. And I was like, "Wow, that's exactly what you're talking Speaker 3: about." Exactly. Exactly. Lindsay Lyons: The wisdom of small children. Love Speaker 3: it. Yes, exactly. Lindsay Lyons: And so I guess I, I, I think there's so much stuff, and I know people can read your book for, for more details on all of this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's so much that you talk about, and honestly, I've been taking so many notes. I have, like, a laundry list of to read next now books and research. That's great. Doug Bolton: Yes. Lindsay Lyons: But where would you encourage people to start? Like, the first thing they do, they've engaged with the episode, they're really jazzed about some of this stuff. Like, what's the first thing that they could put into action right away? Doug Bolton: Yeah. I think that, um, if we can, I would do the, the pausing, the pausing and pondering. You know, the, the thing that, that I think is most important, you know, that's the, that's the regulate part of the R, right? Regulate and relate. Um, and, and, you know, the... I think that things like family dinners have become endangered species because we're so busy, and people will say, "Well, my kid wants to be a part of three travel teams, so I'm just doing what they wanna do. But in the meantime, um, I'm stressed trying to take care of all these things, figure out, you know, who needs helmets and who needs shin pads and who needs the, um, who forgot the bow for their violin," right? "And, and do I have all the, the work to get to the, from school to get to the tutor?" All of these pieces, nobody's getting the breaks that they need. And so if I was to do anything, uh, you know, what... So, so what I would say to parents, they'd say, "Well, they want to be part of all these three teams." And I'd say, "Well, they probably also want three ice cream sundaes before dinner," right? And would we... A- but we, it's easy to say no to that, right? Um, and yet I think that there, just because, um, kids want it doesn't mean that it's healthy for them or for us. And I think I would say, how do we build in these pauses in our lives, in our family's life, in our kids' lives, before we build anything else in? And then figure out what we can add, but, but make sure that those are sacred. That that would probably be the first thing that I would do, because I think that our nervous systems are, um, are under attack. And what we need to do is we need to protect those so that we can then show up as best we can as, as, um, as parents so that we can, so the kids can show up in a classroom on a good night's rest and not feeling so stressed. I wouldn't worry about things like homework. If it's, if they've got too much homework, you know, kids in Finland, they have, uh, um, 2.7 ni- hours, 2.9 hours of homework a week, and in America, it's 2.7 hours a night. And, and Finland, and, and the kids in Finland are doing a whole lot better on these standardized tests than we are. They, we, we should learn something from this, right? That, that, uh, that this homework assignment isn't the end of the world. This, this, uh, C minus is not the end of the world, um, that we're gonna be okay. What we wanna do is make sure the relationships are solid and that we're getting, that we're getting breaks. And when we do that, we're gonna have healthier kids. Lindsay Lyons: I love that. I was just reminded of, uh, when I was a high school teacher, we would do this, like, plan out, a little executive functioning, like plan out your day. Like, when you get home, like, what do you do? And you know, a lot of kids- Yeah ... would work after school, and then they'd have to fit in homework. And I, if I could go back and redo that assignment, I'd be like, "Okay, and plan your pauses. Like, plan your..." Exact- Doug Bolton: yes. Right? That'd Lindsay Lyons: be cool. Let's, Doug Bolton: let's put those in first, Lindsay Lyons: right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I'm very inspired by all this. I'm sure, you seem like a person who is constantly learning. You're constantly referencing, like, research or s- Doug Bolton: I, I, yeah, I, I... That's the thing, is I love, I love the learning part of this, yeah. Lindsay Lyons: I was gonna ask, what are you learning about lately? Like, what's new and exciting on your mind? Doug Bolton: You know, the thing that I, I, I, I mentioned it earlier, is this idea that, um, that w- that when we hit a target, when we shoot for a target, um, uh, the, like, uh, like sales, like this idea of, of, uh, um, high achievement. What happens is we do, uh, when we focus on that, we undermine all the things that can lead to that. And so what I would say is, how can we focus on helping kids be engaged in school instead of helping them get good grades? I would think about, how can we help, um... You know, I think that we've gotten very good. Our focus, um, you know, it used to be, let's focus on how do we develop kids, and now we're focused on how do we develop data. And as a result, we're not getting as good data, and our kids are not developing in the way they need to. And so I would say, how can we shift that? And I'm, I'm, uh, I'm fascinated by all of the examples, um, you know, in, uh, um, in Boeing, they, uh, at Boeing, they used to be, "Let's just make really cool airplanes." And, and as a, and as a result, they got all these profits. And then they had a CEO come in and say, "We're gonna be profit-focused." And all of a sudden, we've been seeing more and more problems with, um, the safety and the design and everything else of these planes, because when we build a plane, um, to make profit, um, it's very different than we build a plane so that it's gonna be the coolest plane we can build and, and answer a certain, uh, uh, a certain problem in the world, right? And so, so I, and so that's the research I've been doing, is just trying to better understand that, 'cause I think that that's happening in our parenting and happening in our, uh, with our kids, uh, in, in our parenting and in our schools. Lindsay Lyons: I love that example. Thank you for making that- Mm-hmm ... that come to life for us. And finally, where can people connect with you or learn more about you? Doug Bolton: Yeah, so, um, I've got a website, um, drdougboulton.com. D-R dougboulton.com, B-O-U-L-T-O-N. And, uh, um, and you can get my book, and my book tells a lot of stories about my work as a therapeutic school principal and psychologist, and, uh- The thing I love about the books is that I feel like the students are telling the stories. And, uh, um, and I tell stories about my own family and my, uh, my, mostly my struggles as a, as a parent, and what I've learned from those as well. So, so I think that my, uh, um, my book would be one way, and I think my website's another way to kinda get a picture of, of, uh, the work that, that, um, that I'm doing, so. Lindsay Lyons: Thank you so much, Dr. Bolton. This was such a humbling, amazing conversation. Thank you for being on the podcast. Doug Bolton: Lindsay, thanks so much. I, I've loved it. I, I feel like I, we could have talked for ages. So, uh, so thank you so much for, um, what a great interview and what a, a, um, I'm just so, um, grateful for your time and your energy and, and what you're bringing to the world. So thank you for letting me be a part of it. Lindsay Lyons: Absolutely
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
May 2026
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