249. Cultivating a Culture of Belonging, Challenge, & Agency with Dr. Jennifer Berry

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In this episode, we chat with Dr. Jennifer Berry, who discusses the importance of cultivating a culture of appropriate challenge in classrooms, particularly among STEM students. She emphasizes that a student's self-belief in their ability to belong, master rigorous challenges, and make impactful contributions is crucial across all fields, not just within STEM. 

Dr. Berry highlights that achieving this involves creating a conducive learning environment, allowing for productive struggle, and integrating hands-on learning with real-world applications.

The Big Dream 

Dr. Berry's vision is rooted in the right of all students to thrive as the best versions of themselves. Her dream is to break down the structures that hinder many youth from realizing their potential, empowering them to rise above their circumstances. She envisions an educational landscape where students are equipped not only to face challenges individually but also to collaborate and push against systemic barriers collectively.

Mindset Shifts Required

Dr. Berry argues for the critical mindset shift that recognizes the importance of allowing productive struggles, rather than stepping in to solve problems for students. This can be against educators' natural tendency to to step in and help solve everything. But by pausing before responding to students, you’re encouraging students to explore solutions themselves. 

Action Steps  

For educators wanting to enable their students to learn through “productive struggle,” Dr. Berry suggests the following action steps: 

Step 1: Create a learning environment that promotes collaboration, movement, and the integration of hands-on tools. This could be a dedicated space in the classroom or a specific area in a school that encourages project-based learning.

Step 2: Design curriculum activities that connect STEM tools with real-world issues and industry pathways, helping students see the relevance and applications of what they are learning.

Step 3: Actively engage the broader community by inviting mentors and professionals to share their experiences, thereby providing students with diverse role models and real-world insights.

Step 4: In all this, resist the temptation to jump in and solve, fix, or help students immediately. Let them have space to figure things out and engage in productive struggle. With practice, educators will know when you need to step in and when you don’t. As Dr. Berry says, “Pause before responding, pause before answering.”

Challenges?

The most significant challenge in fostering STEM identity is ensuring that all elements of learning, from curriculum design to community engagement, work together seamlessly. Teachers may become overly focused on one aspect, such as the technology involved, rather than integrating it with practical, real-world applications and wider educational goals.

One Step to Get Started 

Start by integrating a short pause before answering student questions in class. This simple action encourages students to think more deeply about their queries and explore potential solutions, reinforcing their problem-solving skills and growing their confidence. This approach sets the foundation for a broader shift in mindset, fostering a more inquisitive and resilient learning environment.

Stay Connected

You can find out more about and connect with Dr. Jennifer Berry on her website, SmartLab Learning, or on LinkedIn.

To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Culture Playlist with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 249 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 1:00 “ As we're educating youth and as we're educating students in the classroom, we should always be thinking about what their future is. Obviously we want kids to be whole and the best versions of themselves … However, we should also be thinking about how we are setting them up for success, for future careers to be, and thriving in future industries.”
  
• 2:50 “We've defined STEM identity as a learner's self-belief that I belong, I can master rigorous challenges, and my ideas make an impact or have an impact.”
  
• 11:18 “You don’t want a student to struggle to the point where they give up … There is that zone of productive struggle that’s really important.”
  
• 18:20 “ Active rebellion doesn't have to be so rebellion-esque. It could be some small things that you're doing slightly differently that open your brain up to think about new ideas that think about ways to solve a problem in a way that maybe you hadn't thought of before.”
  

​​​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:

TRANSCRIPT
Lindsay Lyons: Dr. Jennifer Barry, welcome to the time for teachership podcast.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Oh, thank you for having me, Lindsay. I'm so happy to be here.
Lindsay Lyons: I am so excited that you're here because as we were saying right before we hit record, I'm really interested in this idea of like class culture and how we kind of build up, uh, a culture of appropriate challenge and all of that.
And I think your work is so, um, like it. Helpful in how we can like, make that actionable. Mm-hmm. Particularly for, for STEM classrooms, but I think honestly for, for every classroom, yes. It's so valuable no matter what you teach. Yeah. And so that's what's on my heart and mind this morning. And so I'm curious to know what is important for listeners to know that maybe you're thinking about today or that you want people to kind of keep in mind throughout.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, I love, I loved how you mentioned what's so key for students, whether they're in a STEM classroom or whether in they're in any kind of learning environment. But I also would translate that and transfer that even into a career, um, focus, right? Because as we're educating youth and as we're educating, um, uh, students in the classroom, we should always be thinking about what is their future, right?
Like obviously we want kids to be, um, you know, whole and best versions of themselves. And have, you know, the mental health capacity to survive in this kind of ever changing, in some case, some cases, scary world. However, we should also be as educators thinking about how are we setting up for them up for success, for future careers to be and, and, and be in and thriving in, uh, future industries, some that already exist and some that are yet to be, to be existing in existence because they're be.
Being developed as we speak. Right? And so I always like to say to myself and to others, and to my, my team who's developing our curriculum at Smart Lab, um, what do we think about, uh, as, as to what skills do students need in order to thrive in a career and be. Not only the best versions of themselves, but the top of their game and lead in, in whatever they choose to, to focus on in life.
So it isn't just okay when they're in the STEM classroom or when they're in the learning environment, but how does that connection connect to the broader, uh, life that they're gonna have, right? And, and their experiences that they're gonna bring to this world and how they're gonna contribute to this world in meaningful and positive ways.
So, you know, we have coined this sort of. STEM identity, uh, definition, which, you know, STEM identity has been, uh, studied for years. Right? And I know that I, the word identity can be very controversial, but the reality is, um, when you put the word stem in front of it, um, it, it really kind of loses that sort of polarizing perspective because it's really about thinking.
Uh, how, how do you think not can you use a STEM application, but how do you think, right? And so we've defined STEM identity as a learner's self-belief that I belong, I can master rigorous challenges and my ideas make an impact or have an impact, right? That cuts across any industry. Right. I'm not, I, I, man, you know, I am a CEO of a STEM company, but I don't consider myself a scientist, right?
I don't consider myself, although I love math, I don't consider myself a mathematician or in that field, right? I consider myself a leader. I consider myself a visionary. I consider myself somebody that really galvanizes an idea or people and move us forward so that we can be, again, the best versions of ourselves and contribute to this world meaningfully.
So. When I think about that, I think, oh, I actually have STEM identity because I do believe I belong in this seat. I do believe I can master rigorous challenges, and I do believe that my ideas make an impact. So somewhere along the way, through my early learning all the way through till now, I, I had that cultivated through mentors, through parents, through my community along the way.
And so that's my. That was my learner's self-belief, and now it's my adult self-belief and it translates into the industry that I've chosen. So I really like to think about STEM identity as beyond the STEM. Uh, acronym and really think about it from the standpoint of a learner's self-belief, right?
Because we all wanna belong. We all wanna believe that we can master a, a challenge. And like that challenge doesn't define us like we can. We can work through that challenge and get it to the other side, um, or decide, hey, that challenge is not even worth solving because it isn't really, uh, something that I can solve and bring in others and collaborate with others to help kind of get to that solvability.
Um. Or that place of, of solve. So you know that that's really what I think we as humans, even for, and I was talking to somebody the other day, they're like, oh, oh, so STEM identity is acquired? And I'm like, Hmm. I don't know. I think babies come out with STEM identity, right? Like I think they come out believing, oh, I belong here.
Right. I, I, I can master rigorous challenge because guess what? When I cry, somebody helps me in most cases, right? I know that's not in all cases, but in most cases I cry and somebody, right? So that was a challenge, and I overcame it by making sound, right? Uh, my ideas have impact, right? Because when I smile, a, a, an adult smiles back at me, right?
So that was an idea. So, I don't know. It's sort of, I know that's a little heady and maybe too meta for a lot of people, but I actually believe that people, um, as individuals come out with this sort of identity that they belong and that they can master rigorous challenges and their ideas have. And so therefore, because we've defined that as STEM identity, I believe people come out of the womb with STEM identity.
Now, what I do believe is that, that they need to be cultivated. They need to have environments that cultivate that identity. They need to have, um, people around them and systems around them that support the fact that they belong. Right? We know that there's systemically that's not always the case for all individuals, and so we need to work very carefully to make sure that all.
All humans get that inalienable right of, um, care to thrive with their own belief that they belong here.
Lindsay Lyons: Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, I, I love this so much. There's so much that I wanna like tap into. I think that this idea of, um, you know, every, every person just for the greater good of humanity and for their, like, role as a community member in a larger world.
I mean, we talk a lot about civic action and kind of like that social studies lens and this. Podcast. Yes. But like, that seems so relevant, right? Like, you want to be impactful, you want to be agentic, you want the sense of belonging and you wanna foster it for other people. You want to be able to tackle hard things instead of just shut down when the world is like nuts.
Right? Yeah. And, and I think that totally, totally resonates for civics as well.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, I agree.
Lindsay Lyons: I mean, that's what, that's just me kind of painting my dream. But I, I always try to ask at the start ish of episodes like. For guests. What, I'm curious what your freedom dream is. So Dr. Bettina love describes this as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Mm.
And
Lindsay Lyons: so you kind of alluded to like right, like some systems and structures are not just, and and like what you're painting a vision of is maybe counter two what some of the systems currently are. And so you maybe have already addressed this question, but I'm curious, is there anything you would add here around like the dream you hold for education?
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah. Um, I think it is rooted in, um, all students' rights to thrive and be best versions of themselves, um, and that sort of breaking down of the structures around them that prevent that for many youth. Um, so my dream is to sort of figure out how to bust the structures down and to, to protect the youth at the center of that so that they can thrive.
Whatever environment they're handed. Right? And so, because not every envi, not every student is handed the same environment for various reasons, right? Based on socioeconomic background, based on race, based on gender, based on, um, religion. You know, you can name, you can name all of the reasons why maybe not all, all students have the structures around them that support their, their learning.
So, you know, when I think about my sort of. Focus is to try to figure out in a small way, right? I, I don't, I, you know, I'm not able to solve all of the problems, um, across, across the u United States and world. Um, but I do believe that in a small way, if we can sort of. Bubble students to be able to thrive in whatever, uh, environment they're in so that they can feel like they matter, right?
And their, and their ideas add value, as we talked about earlier. And so to create an environment around them where they're almost protected, um, from some of the, the, the, the structures that. Down so that they can stand up on their own two feet and look up and go, wait, I can break down that barrier. I can push through that barrier.
I, collectively with my peers, can collaborate together to be the force that pushes against whatever is pushing against them. Right? So that I, I think, you know, to layer in. You know that, you know how I, how we as my an organization have defined that STEM identity term. You know, that's very narrow 'cause we run a STEM company, so that's very narrow.
But when I think about my own sort of seat in that as a CEO, it's bigger than that for me. It's really to make sure that the students that are in an environment that, that any environment of learning, that they can really thrive to be best versions of themselves and. See that they're better than their circumstances and that if they themselves as individuals and they can grab, gather collectively around them and build community, they can bust through the circumstances that are sort of pushed and forced upon them.
And then of course, my personal dream is that those that are outside of the student learning environment are also pushing from the, uh, outside in so that the students are pushing from the outside out, inside out. We're pushing from the. Outside in so that we can really crumble some of the stuff that really is, um, you know, disenfranchising a lot of, a lot of youth from being the best versions of themselves and being able to be productive individuals and be collective in their unity for society.
So.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that dream. Thank you for sharing that.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, of course.
Lindsay Lyons: I, I think now about like some of the actions that educators can take or, I mean, honestly even like family members, right? Supporting kids, like you're saying, like learning environments kinda are everywhere. We're like doing this kind of whole human wise now and in the future.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah.
Lindsay Lyons: I think often as a teacher, I will raise my hand on today that I, for sure when someone was like, miss, miss, like I'm struggling. It would be me running over from person to person helping, and I realize now, in retrospect as a coach, that was not helpful in the moment. I wasn't letting 'em, you know, rise to the challenge and figuring out ways to tackle the problem themselves.
Mm-hmm. And certainly my goal was to like alleviate their stress. Mm-hmm. Right. And to help, but it wasn't actually helpful, so. Mm-hmm. For me, this has been a mindset shift that I've gone through, but I'm curious, are there. Other mindset shifts that you think are really required for educators to make to be able to actually cultivate this STEM identity?
Yeah. That is different from how maybe traditionally school is done.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah. I'd say there's two things to that. So the first thing actually is exactly what you were saying, and I can even speak as a parent. So I have an 11-year-old daughter and. The natural instinct is always to jump in and solve, or to alleviate the stress or to help, um, and, and that natural instinct is because we're trying to make sure that they are feeling safe and they're, you know, not struggling.
Right. And we work a lot on this, even our curriculum set for, for Smart Lab, where we focus on teaching the facilitator how to allow productive struggle. Right. And that's key because you don't want a student to struggle past the point of, um, or where they give up or where they, um, sort of reach their pay grade, if you will.
They reach their level of, you know, capacity to like push past their, their amygdala firing and that fear of fight or fight happening. So there is this sort of productive struggle, um, zone that we really try to get facilitators to in our. Professional development of our facilitators in a smart lab because that productive struggle is really, really important.
Like, let the student struggle enough, kind of push through and fail enough times that they, um, can then see like, oh, I can go another place in my brain and try to get that to solve, you know, solve. Solve that, or I could walk away because I'm too frustrated right now. I'm allowed to walk away and come back to it later and then pick up right where I left off.
But there is that zone of productive struggle that's really important because you don't want to go past that zone. Because if you go past that zone, then students actually can retreat and that and their amygdala, right? Their fire or flight, um, uh, uh, nerve fires and then, and then your. Then they're not productive, right?
So there's that zone of letting 'em struggle enough without letting them get to that fight or flight zone. And even sometimes we actually do teach. Sometimes getting in that fight or flight zone is good because sometimes when you're fighting with the answer, there's ways that, I mean, we do this in life, right?
There's ways in which you need to walk away. Do some breathing, get out in nature, you know, read a book. Really get out of your environment so that you can come back a, the better version of yourself. Right. And I, I, I had this issue with my daughter last night. You know, she was, she was tired and she didn't wanna do her, her 20 minutes of reading that she's supposed to do every night.
And, um. She had just come from karate. And so I could tell she was just in this like zone of, of past the point of, I can, I can't even, I can't even figure out how to get into the bathroom and brush my own teeth, right? And she was just like, can you help me brush my teeth? And I'm thinking, you're 11. I don't need to help you brush your teeth, right?
But my natural reaction was like, yes, because I need, and I need you to read and I need you to go to sleep. So I'm gonna grab your toothbrush and I'm gonna brush your teeth for you. Right. And as I'm doing this because I'm, you know, although I talk about this a lot, I fail at it often. I'm brushing her teeth and she's standing there with her arms down and her eyes closed, and I'm thinking.
Oh, I have just enabled her to use me essentially because, and I could see in her eyes like, oh, I got you. Almost like, or I could see in her body language, I got you. And I know that's not, I don't think she was intentionally thinking that, but I think in her mind she was like. Oh, I was able to cry a little bit.
I was able to like pretend I don't know how to brush my teeth or I can't function right, because I am tired, right? And so I calmly put the toothbrush down. I said, okay, Jayla, I started this for you. I need you to finish and I will meet. I'm gonna go do my own. Brushing of the teeth and washing my own face and I will meet you in your room with my own book and we will read together.
Right? And but it took me, it took me that moment of doing to then also have my own moment of, wait a minute, I just got tricked here. Or I just fell into a pattern of trying to help and solve because I could see my poor child was tired and dah, dah, dah, and I had to really stop and I could see begrudgingly she was sort of like, Ugh.
But she picked up that toothbrush. She finished brushing her teeth, she got herself in bed. She opened her book and she was waiting for me to come in and she was reading, but by the time I got in there with my book to sit on the floor next door to read. So it was really powerful moment for me. A small example, but a very powerful for moment for me that we, we can jump in.
Like you said, you're walking around the classroom and you can jump in. But also when we're, we're mature enough to go, whoa, I've overstepped here and sort of. Kick it off for them and then walk away. So I don't, I think sometimes I see facilitators across the country like, oh, I'm supposed to just be hands off with everything and let them sort of, and it doesn't mean as an educator, you can't guide, you can't start, you can't maybe add value in the middle of, um.
You have to know when to back away. You have to know when to let them push through that obstacle. Right? So anyway, that's a great, that was a great example of something that happened to me last night that I had a moment of realization and, and I know despite that she was sort of. Angry about it. I know that, you know, she's more than capable of what I, you know, the tasks that she was trying to do, and it had I continued to help her, I would've been enabling her to lean on me too hard when things got hard for her.
Lindsay Lyons: I love that example of, thank you. Very relatable. I think that's great. Um, and I, yeah, I think that's also your idea, that it's okay if you find yourself in that moment and you can then step back. It's very forgiving. Yeah. For the people who are in transition from, like, I used to run to put out fires and help get too much and over scaffold.
Yes. But I can notice in the moment and remove myself. I love that. Like reframing of like, I kicked you off. Like we, I got you started. Here we go. Now it's you.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, now it's you. Yeah. Oh, and I had said there was a second thing, the second thing, and be, you know, and because we're a STEM organization, although I just believe this, in, in general, putting in a, a hands-on approach or some sort of tool or some sort of STEM application, whether it's a hands-on, you know, I believe STEM applications can even be paperclips.
Like sub application doesn't have to be, you know, an ai, VR, glass, you know, v ar VR glasses. Like it really could be just a paperclip, right? So I believe putting in some sort of hands-on tool into a student's learning process can help open up the brain in ways that, um, that. All humans need, right. That, that, that kind of going back to the root of play.
Right. And, you know, you, you, you play when you're young, but when you're, when you're, you know, elementary, middle, high school, and then even, you know, higher ed and even as an adult with me there, there's moments where I have to like pick up something and play with it to, to open up parts of my brain that can then.
Find a solution to something, right? When you're stuck in a problem, you have to that, that act of hands-on play. Now, in most cases, you want that act, that act of hands-on play to be connected to whatever you're trying to solve. But sometimes that act of play is, um. Is really just opening the, the brain up, right?
I, I had this conversation, somebody was interviewing me last night for, for something they were doing for their, uh, their MBA program and they were asking me sort of what were my tips and tricks and I said, you know, I sort of have this weird act of rebellion thing that I do, and it's, and they were like, Ooh, tell me more active rebellion.
That sounds really like gritty. And I'm like, actually, it's like sometimes I just drive home a different route. Sometimes I just listen to a different radio station. Sometimes I just, uh, brush my teeth with my left hand versus my right hand. Like this active rebellion doesn't have to be so. Rebellion esque.
It could be some small things that you're doing slightly different that open your brain up to think about new ideas that think about ways to solve a problem in a way that maybe you hadn't thought of before. So I, I kind of like this active rebellion. Maybe I'll write a book about it someday, but this sort of active rebellion that's very simple, acts during the course of your day.
To get you out of routine. And I believe in structure. I believe in routine. I believe in discipline, but you have to sometimes break those norms in order to have your brain open up for really amazing thoughts that are trapped, right? And so when you, I don't know how many times you've been in a car and driven and go, I don't even know how I got here.
You know, I have no idea how I got here. And, you know, uh, although if you force yourself to go a different route, then you're like, oh, wait, do I have to turn right? Do I have to turn left? Wait, where am I going? I'm in a different way. So I do that every day. I try to do this active rebellion in very small ways that sparked the brain.
So I can think about in a, in a classroom setting, a teacher, an educator, trying to think about maybe changing up their routine instead of walking the classroom and the, you know, they normally. Because teachers I know find themselves doing, I'm gonna always go to this side of the room first, and then go around to the left side, go the other direction and see what happens.
Right. You're gonna make the kids go. 'cause they also know, oh, she's gonna get to me last, so by the time she gets to me, I'll show her that I'm working on something. Right. But I'll be maybe doodling before she gets around to me. Right. But now, if the teacher's changing their walk, now you're, you're changing that student to go, oh, I have to be actively engaged now because she's not doing her normal.
Her normal left to right walk or right to left, walk right. So, I don't know, little things like that I think could be really helpful for a teacher. Um. Uh, you know, have the student have, you know, maybe the teacher sits on the floor one day outta nowhere, or sits on the desks, or has the kids sit on the floor, even if they're in high school, just like change it up and do these small acts of rebellion.
That I think can really, um, open up those spaces for, um, being okay with failure, for being okay with change, for being resilient when things aren't always as, as you've imagined them or are used to them being.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh, I love this idea that you're just like opening the brain up. You know, that like, I, I, that is so cool.
I'm latching onto that piece. I also was thinking about you describing your guide for facilitators. Mm-hmm. And so thinking about instruction and instruction design, like both the pre-planning, like I'm gonna design in this particular way to help kids, like have this opportunity for, for grappling and productive struggle.
But then I also. Like, I think we focus a lot on that and, and I know that that's super important and this idea of like the responsive piece, like I'm gonna see what kids can do and then I'm gonna respond accordingly so that they're in that zone you're describing.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Lyons: I'm curious if you could share some of those tips that you have in your kind of coaching of facilitators and facilitation of how to.
How to do this. Uh, if you know someone's listening and they're like, I'm gonna try this out today in class, you know, is there something that you could do differently to be more responsive?
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, I think two things that pop to mind. Um, you know, without going into the full facilitation training that we do, but two things that I think are really simple, like you said, what could they do today is, um.
Pause before responding, pause before answering. Um, you know, even a student that raises their hand and says, Hey, I have a question, right? This is my question. Instead of going, well, let me answer that for you because I'm the teacher, I'm the person that knows I'm supposed to, supposed to answer this question.
You know, pausing and saying, you know what? That's a really quick question. Tell me more about why you're asking that. Tell me more about what, what, what the point is of that question. Are you a, you know, do others have an idea to help that Stu, you know, to help that? Like, really putting the question back on the student.
I do this at work a lot and it throws people off actually many times. You know, when you're the CEO of a company, I, I didn't know this until I became a CEO, but people ask you the things that are like. So low level that as if you're supposed to know every answer, you know, and um, or even high level as if you're supposed to have all the high level answers, right.
And I find myself a lot going. I don't, I don't have any, I don't have any idea or that's a really interesting question or I haven't thought about that yet. Um, and, and I. I've now started to use this sort of, it's a, that's, that's a really good question. Tell me why you're asking. What is, what is, um, what do you think we would get from that?
By, by solving that or by, um, you know, that, that solution or that, if I answered that question, if I even dare to know the answer to that question, what would you get from that? Is there a point behind your question? Do you, what do you think the answer should be? That actually makes people uncomfortable?
They're like, oh. I asked you what I, of course, I don't know, but I'm like, no, I'm, I'm curious what, how do you think? And then all of a sudden they're like, well, I think we should do it this way, and I think you should do it that way. And I think maybe if we tried it this way and I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
Maybe we should try that. Maybe you could own that. Maybe that's a project you wanna take on. Right? And that opens up this sort of pause before you just jump in and answer. So that would be my one. One tip for people is just pause before you answer and sort of put. The question back on them, or maybe not the question back on them, but put the why they're asking back on them, because then it can force them to think about like, why am I asking that question?
What will that serve this discussion? You know, is it just because that it popped in my head and I'm that kid that just likes to ask questions? Or is it, I'm really curious about this and I think. Help me. If I understood this, it would help me understand that, you know, and make that kid sort of think through why that question matters.
And then of course, of course engage the rest of the class to maybe help them solve it rather than you, you know, standing up being the expert in the room. Right. Um, so that's one. The other, the other thing is this, um, this idea of when you see people struggling actively walk away. And you know, had I done that last night with my daughter in the toothbrush moment, I guarantee her standing in the bathroom with her arms down and the tears streaming, you know, you know, staring at the mirror.
But like, I'm not, I don't know how to brush my teeth. Had I walked away from that circumstance, she would've had to. Regroup. She would've had to eventually pick up the toothbrush and brush her teeth because she does know how to brush her teeth, right? So, had I done that rather than like, oh, I'm just gonna jump in and help you grab the toothbrush and shove it in your mouth and start the process, um, she would've had to work through.
Feelings in that moment and work through, like, I do know how to do this. I'm not gonna just stand here and cry all night. I need to pick up that toothbrush and brush my teeth and go into my room. Right? So that would be the second sort of like quick thing, the moment you see struggle or somebody frustrated in the corner.
Maybe just actively walking away, keeping your eye on them to make sure they don't get past that point of like, now I'm a wreck and now I'm hiding under the table, or now I'm arguing with my peer or whatever. Right. Or throwing things at the teacher. You know, those things can happen too, but walk away and sort of allow them to have their moment because most humans need those moments that they can figure out how to work through.
Right now there's some right that we, we know, that need other accommodations to help support them in their, in their time of need. But for the most part, you can identify like, Ooh, I'm gonna let that child struggle a little bit more. But I, as a teacher had to actively walk away because just like at the playground when a student fall or, or where a kid falls, they look for their parents' reaction.
And it's the same thing as you get older, right? Your, your, your, your, your rebellion in the classroom is looking to see, is somebody noticing, is somebody seeing me? Right? And sometimes walking away from that is them going, wait, I can, I can solve this. Or a peer jumps in and goes, let me help you. Right? So those would be the two things that I would recommend, um, that people can do out of the gate and that we try to really make sure the facilitators are strong at in a stem learning environment.
Lindsay Lyons: I love those. Thank you so much for those. Those are, yeah, immediately actionable. So super, super helpful and concrete. And thinking back to kind of at the start where you were talking about, and I wrote this down, how do you think like the idea of like STEM identity and like, you know, coaching students around this.
It's important to coach like the thinking, right. And the thinking is what we want to do. Yeah. Especially in like humanities, I think a lot of times we prioritize the way that you get the thinking out, like on a paper in writing, for example, and then the kid struggles of writing. It's like, oh, I can't see the thinking because I'm not thinking about the various ways that the thinking can come out.
But it really is about. The thinking mm-hmm. That we wanna cultivate. Um, and I'm also thinking about kind of your definition of STEM identity and thinking about that belonging, the rigorous challenge. Um, and then the third one, I can't read my own
Dr. Jennifer Berry: hand. My ideas have an impact. Thank you.
Lindsay Lyons: My
Dr. Jennifer Berry: ideas have an impact.
Yeah.
Lindsay Lyons: Ideas have an impact. What is, is there like an aspect of, of those pieces that you. Find that teachers have the most, um, kind of challenge with, or is there kind of a particular struggle that people face in, in cultivating that stem identity and, and kind of focusing on the thinking. Um, and, and then how do you like coach through a, a challenge like that?
I imagine it's not super easy to make that transition for teachers.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, so we, you know, smart Lab really focuses on an integrated ecosystem. So, you know, our, our, our, our tagline is we're an integrated ecosystem. That's that, uh, sparks, aha moments, that, and build stem identity for learners. That's sort of our tagline, right?
And we, we think of aha moments is that sort of sudden realization that learners have when they connect, um, ideas in new and meaningful ways. Right. So that's, that's how we define an aha moment. And if you have multiple aha moments, that's what's building your stem identity. If you have multi, multiple aha moments, you're starting to get that self-belief, that learner self-belief that you, you know, belong, can master rigorous challenges and your ideas add value.
So this, this, um, idea of, um. What is the hardest part of getting students? Their STEM identity is really allowing for multiple aha moments to happen. And so when we talk about the integrated ecosystem, you know, the environment matters. Right? At Smart Lab, we help, uh, we help classrooms. School districts, you know, schools themselves, uh, customize their learning environment to make sure their learning environment is conducive for hands-on project-based learning.
'cause not all learning environments are, and you can customize a corner of a library to do that. Or you can customize a room that you can lock and call it your STEM lab, right? So no matter where, or even in the classroom, a corner of a classroom, you can create a customized environment that is conducive for hands-on project based learning.
So at Smart Lab, we help. Schools do that. Um, but a teacher themselves in a classroom can create an environment in their classroom that is conducive for hands-on project based learning. And that's being really intentional about what that learning environment looks like. Is there collaborative spaces? Is there room for active play?
Is there room for movement? Right? Is there mo room for bringing in a STEM application to sort of use to facilitate learning, right? So that, that sort of. Customized learning environment is, is really key in this ecosystem, right? But as we both know, ecosystems are only as good as everything that's in 'em, not just the environment.
'cause otherwise that environment could just be a storage unit, right? So you wanna customize learning environment that optimizes for learning, but then you also need the curriculum that is designed to optimize learning, right? And so in our case, we design our curriculum all based on state standards and align.
But, and, but really we, what we do in our curriculum is take STEM applications. That students can use in a hands-on project based way and connect them to real world challenges as well as industry pathways. So that way there isn't just a, um, a, oh, I know how to use a 3D pen, but it's, oh, I, I've used a 3D pen, but let me tell you about the use case for that.
Right. Again, I'm gonna do a great example. I had a, a group of five fifth graders in my car the other day and um, we have brought Smart Lab to my daughter's elementary school. It's a public elementary school in San Diego and we have brought Smart Lab there. And, um, the foundation actually was so invested in getting stem, it's an IB school, but they were so invested in getting STEM into this public school that the foundation.
Uh, use their jogathon money and all of the donation money to put the Smart Lab in the school. So I had these five fifth graders in my car, right, where I'm taking them to their dance, their dance class, their dance team, um, class, and I asked 'em, Hey, how was Smart Lab this week? And they were like, oh my gosh.
Did you know we did the shadows in motion, um, uh, uh, unit. Did you know that in a field, the opposing team makes sure that the, uh, or the, the, the, the field, the, um. Home team makes sure that the opposing team sits with the sun in their eyes. And so when the shadow comes over the stadium that the opposing team has the sun in their eyes, did you know this mommy?
And I'm like, oh wow. Yeah, that's amazing. You know, this is cool. And all of them are rattling around like, yeah, and then this, this, use it for a shadow and this use for a shadow. And so, and I was like, well, what STEM application, what we're using? They're like, oh, we were using a 3D pen. And I'm like. Oh, so they weren't talking about the, the, the thing that's really cool and exciting, they were actually talking about the use case for it, right?
They were designing something with their 3D pen for the shadows in motion type activity that applied to something in real world. So they were actually more excited about the real world application. So that curriculum and how you use the hands-on tools and equipment is so important and can be, um, where.
Facilitators fail when they're just very, they're admiring the 3D pen and they're really excited about the, you know, the CNC machine, or they're really excited about teaching kids how to use a, a, you know, a 3D, you know, a 3D printer, you know, and so they're really excited about that opposed to how do you connect that thing?
To a real world problem. How do you connect that thing to learning that really gets the student to think about a real world, uh, industry or some sort of problem that can be solved through this use of this STEM tool. So that could be, uh, an area that people really need to think about because we, many times I see random acts of STEM happening in school districts, right?
Meaning the kids are getting to play with this stuff and they're very excited about this stuff, but there's no. Connection to anything. It's sort of like, okay, but what is the connection to that thing that you got to play with that now applies in real world, right? And now you and I know this AI powered world we live in, living in, eventually AI is gonna do all of those STEM applications.
It already does most of them, but it's gonna use those already gonna be able to do those STEM applications. So we want students to be able to know how they work, maybe play with how they work so that they can actually have that hands-on tools. But also more importantly, how it applies in real world, so that when they get to the real world, they know when to bring in that AI tool to do that thing because they know what it's used for.
Right? So they can lead in an AI powered world opposed to AI leading them. So that would be part of the, and then, so yeah, so the environment's important. The curriculum and the hands-on tools and equipment is important. We've already had talked about how important the facilitator is, right? And we certify our, our facilitators so that if it's a librarian that.
Becoming the, the STEM teacher or if it's a, if it's a, the, you know, the lead math instructor at the school becoming the stead or the science person that's becoming it, or they put a paraprofessional in that becomes a stem. Um, a facilitator that we make sure that we set them up for success so that they can understand the curriculum, understand the kids and equipment, understand the STEM applications, but more importantly, understand how to allow students to have a productive struggle.
While they're learning. Right? And then lastly, it's really the support and partnership, right? The this, this idea, when we think about our ecosystem, it's these five things and the support and partnership is really key. Now, support could be everything from, you know, at Smart Lab we have customer success people and we have tech support people.
Like, that's all support. But really I like to overemphasize, whether you're in a smart lab or you're just in a classroom trying to do this, or you're, you already have a STEM lab in another, in another. Is that you figure out how to bring the community into your environment, right? Even if it's in the humanities class, even if it's in the social studies class, even if it's in, you know, a STEM learning environment, to have the community come in so that students can see themselves.
Right. So they have representation. They see themselves in careers of the future. They can hear from potential mentors that maybe aren't their parents or aren't people that they get to see every day. Um, and that the, the facilitator or the adult that's coming into this environment to share their own experiences, gives reasons to believe that you don't have to be, you don't have to have the highest scores all the time.
You don't have to always go to the best schools. I always have to look a certain way to be successful in this world. So bringing the community in so that students have a variety of people that they get to see themselves in, I think can be really, really supportive. Supportive to that, to that optimized learning for, for kids future growth.
So I sort of roundabout answered your question about like, what is it that facil. Struggle with the most, and I think it's sort of making sure that all of the pieces are integrated together to optimize the learning, right? They focus on maybe one aspect of the learning environment or one aspect of the kits and equipment or, or to your point, focus too much on the designing of the curriculum, right?
Instead of like, how do I make sure the ecosystem is optimized? Is the learning environment strong? Is the, the curriculum developed? You know, in a way that's gonna optimize learning is the way in which I facilitate that. At at peak capacity, it am I bringing the community in to give real world examples and to give mentorship to these students.
So really making sure that you're thinking of the whole ecosystem, I think is where people struggle the most. Um, because they get overly fixated on one aspect or another. I
Lindsay Lyons: love the ecosystem frame. Love the components. Those are so good. Thank you for sharing that. And I think as a final question that I'm gonna sneak in as we close here, um, where can folks learn more about you or connect with you or Smart Lab online or, or otherwise?
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah. Yeah. So I hope people go to our website, um, and that's smart lab learning.com. So Smart Lab Learning spelled as you would expect.com. They can go there. There's a ton of free resources. We actually, on November 7th, have a, uh, what we're calling STEM Identity Day. So there is national STEM identity or national.
STEM Day. That is on November 8th, but it's a Saturday, so we wanted to make sure schools got to participate. So we're calling it, um, STEM Identity Day in support of National STEM Day. And we're inviting, um, the community into schools and we can help facilitate that so that it's all, you know, credentialed.
Everybody's credentialed and has their visitor passes and knows what to do, but we're inviting, um. Community into schools, not just smart labs, but schools, any school doesn't have to be a smart lab, any school to come in and share their stem identity story. So to take our definition and say, oh, where, where, where do I think I, um, gauge my own STEM identity along my journey and be able to share that with students and then for them to think about like, what's.
STEM applications do I use in my job and be able to share that with students as well. So that's on, uh, November 7th, so please have, you know, if you're interested, go to our website and learn about STEM Identity Day and come volunteer your time at a school districts across the country so you can share your own STEM identity journey with students so that we're really starting to make this movement a thing across.
For all students, as we talked about earlier. Um, so that's one way. And then of course there's tons of other tools and resources, um, on the website for people to, um, look at. And, and if you're like, oh, I don't have students, but I wanna participate in this, you know, we can help you match you with the school.
So you could donate money to the school or donate money to the, the foundation of that school so that they could put, you know, either a smart lab or some sort of stem learning environment into the hands of that. So we can match, we can match people that are interested in donating, uh, to schools and to to stem identity for students up with school districts in their community or across the country.
So we can help people do that. Um, and also we just really hope that people engage in this conversation and know that, you know, we want, um, we want Smart Lab to know, but we really want all students to know that they belong here. They can do this. They add value, and really they're future ready. So that really is important to us.
People can also look me up on LinkedIn, Dr. Jennifer Berry. I'm happy to talk to anybody, have to mentor. Happy to engage in conversation. I'm always here for people because I, uh, that's how I learn best.
Lindsay Lyons: Awesome. Thank you Dr. Berry. And we'll link to all that stuff in the show notes in the blog post for this episode as well.
And it's been an episode. Pleasure talking to you today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Thank you. You're amazing. I'm so happy you're doing this. And you told me earlier you've been doing this for five years. What an impressive, I can't wait to like follow you and start listening to all your episodes.
Lindsay Lyons: Oh, thank you.
Dr. Jennifer Berry: Yeah, thank you.

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