234. Students Are Not Their Behaviors with Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith and Marlene Moyer

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In this episode, we chat with Dr. Claudia Bertolone-Smith and Marlene Moyer, co-authors of the transformative new book, Tools Not Rules. With years of teaching experience, they discuss their approach to classroom management, emphasizing honesty and self-regulation as core principles. 

The duo shares insights into fostering a culture of honesty within classrooms, using frameworks like color-coded energy zones and star charts to encourage positive behavior and accountability among students. Their method focuses on bringing a simple, direct approach that operationalizes the dreams and theories educators want to implement, but find hard to do.  


The Big Dream 

Marlene and Claudia envision an educational environment where every child feels like they belong—a place where every child sees themselves increasing in ability and feel loved and empowered throughout their education. Their dream is for classrooms to become spaces of belonging and empowerment, where students are motivated by genuine care and constructive consequences rather than control and shame. 


Mindset Shifts Required

To achieve this dream, educators must shift away from fear-based, control-oriented methods—what many teachers know, even if it’s not their heart intention. Instead, they should embrace frameworks that encourage exploration, curiosity, and empathy. Without an effective framework, educators go back to the “least common denominator,” or what they grew up with themselves. 


Action Steps  

Educators can begin implementing a new framework of honesty, exploration, and wonder in their classrooms by following the principles and action steps laid out in Tools Not Rules: 

Step 1: Prioritize honesty. It’s one of the core principles—“honesty goes first.” Approach your students with curiosity and a genuine desire to understand their experiences. Allow open space that students can speak into without fear of being judged. 

Step 2: Introduce self-assessment and self-regulation. After establishing a culture of openness and honesty, you can encourage students to self-assess, or identify what’s really going on. From there, they can self-regulate by choosing a different word. For example, students may be “shirking” or avoiding their work, so the question becomes, “what can we do to start working?” The answers may surprise you and lead to practical steps to identify and change behaviors. 

Step 3: Understand the three zones of regulation. Students can be either shirking (avoiding work), working, or showboating (showing off). The first is a negative energy, working is the most stable energy, and showboating is the most full-on energetically. These match a color scale from blues to reds. Understanding where you, as an educator, and your students more naturally go can be helpful in self-assessing and regulating. 

Step 4: Focus on empathy-building with a “why chart.” As a class, call out different behaviors and try to understand the why behind it. For example, solicit honest reasons as to “Why we avoid doing the assignment,” or “Why don’t we come to class prepared” and dig into those behaviors. The collective “we” is important so students aren’t called out but, rather, build empathy with each other. This helps break negative cycles and rebuilds trust within the classroom.

Step 5: Implement star charts to shift perspectives. This is when the teacher makes a commitment to the student to look for positive behaviors and reinforce them. It’s important for the teacher to see beyond the daily grind of difficult classrooms, but shift toward seeing the positive things students have to bring. 


Challenges?

One of the challenges educators might face is letting go of traditional methods and embracing a new framework that relies on empathy and understanding. It requires teachers to be self-reflective and open to receiving honest feedback from students, which can be challenging, but ultimately rewarding. 


One Step to Get Started 

Start by incorporating a simple exercise of asking students to self-assess their current behavior and choose an actionable step towards improvement. Encourage open discussions and acknowledge honest feedback to cultivate a culture of trust and mutual respect in the classroom.


Stay Connected

You stay connected with Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith and Marlene Moyer on their website, Tools Not Rules. You can pick up a copy of the book or grab online resources, tools, and content to implement in your classroom. Feel free to reach out to the authors via their website if you’d like to talk more. 



To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guests are sharing Student Roll out of TNR language with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 234 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 2:10 “It was born of struggle—and it was born of a little bit of desperation and also some tenacity—that we just continue to say we need to shift this. We need to shift it in a way that feels principled and helps kids.”
  
• 5:26 “If we don’t go in with a framework, we just go back to the least common denominator—the one that is most comfortable to us.” 
  
• 11:06 “Trust your students. They have stories, too. They have lives and things happen—be open to the truth and honesty of that.” 
  
• 13:05 “We don’t save some special treatment for the hardest kids. We don’t save some special treatment for the honors kids who maybe sometimes cheat on their test. They all get the exact same treatment.”
  
• 29:45 “Let’s bring joy back to teaching. When you’re having that conversation with a student, that’s positive. When you give them a star and you say, ‘Good job!’ you see them shift. It’s a joyful, regeneration of energy in the classroom.” ​
  

​​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:

TRANSCRIPT

00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Marlene and Claudia, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here, Absolutely so. I think I have your book in my hands Tools, not Rules. I've been very excited I was saying to you before we record as a parent and as a teacher, really excited to engage with this. So I'm curious to know, like, what is important for listeners to know about either the book or kind of your thoughts in this moment, as we're about to head into a conversation about the book and maybe, marlene, you can start for us. 

00:36 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Sure, you know, I think you know working with Claudia was a real gift because she has a pretty brilliant mind for seeing creative solutions to hard problems. 

00:46
And what I realized from this work is, with Claudia and this kind of genius breakthrough moment where she was like, right, all the kids in the classroom, let's talk about behaviors, but not that they are their behaviors. That was this moment where she uses this word operationalized she was able to operationalize something that has been nebulous and hard for us all to figure out. We read these books about theory, we read these big books about mindset shifts, but when you're in the meat of it, the moment where it's hard and hot and you feel like you're filled, you know, surrounded by monsters, it allows you to operationalize these big dreams and hopes we have for ourselves as educators by following this really simple, direct approach. So to me, that is the breakthrough, that's the difference that Tools, not Rules, brings. That's kind of the niche in the market that I think is special. So I just want to say that being able to operationalize something that I think all educators feel in their heart was the real shift and the gift and allowed us to write this book. 

01:57 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
And I would add, I would add this is born of struggle, right? So this is not born of some high minded, you know situational thing where we had the perfect class doing the perfect things. It was born of struggle and it was born a little bit of desperation and also some tenacity that we just continue to say we need to shift this, but we need to shift it in a way that feels principled, that helps kids and I know in the book we talked about my son being in the class, you know so I had some definite buy-in for that. That helps kids feel, you know, that they are heard and that we see them making progress. And so I just want to say, born of struggle. Working with a co-teacher like Marlene is incredible because we kept trying different things, like did this work? Okay, it didn't work, but this piece did, so let's try this, let's try this. So that's why we feel like this book is addressing what teachers need and it's not us like a pie in the sky situation. It is. We were in there with you. 

03:00 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Yeah, it definitely reads that way too. So thank you for that. And I think actually this idea of born of struggle kind of connects to this next question I was interested in so thinking about freedom dreaming. Dr Bettina Love describes this as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. So what is that dream that you all hold for education? 

03:18 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
maybe, claudia, you can kind of continue in thinking about this with us yeah, sure, so, um, I talked a little bit about that, but the dream for us was that every child felt like they belonged, every child saw themselves increasing in ability and every child felt a full measure a full measure of our love, our care and, a lot of times, consequence and came through that feeling more empowered, right. So when I think of a dream and I also work with pre-service teachers, they're learning to be teachers they really struggle. They want that so bad for their students. They come in and that's what they want, but they're not sure how to get it. You know, they're not sure what to do in the classroom, how to deal with these hard behaviors, and so that was our dream. You know we want this to happen, and in the years we worked together, we really saw it come to fruition and it was an absolute amazing time, yeah. 

04:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
And so thinking about kind of the shift away from I think a lot of teachers who may be listening at this moment are kind of like, oh, that is not how my class operates. Or you know, I read the book and like I need to get there, but I'm here right now. What are kind of those mindset shifts that could prepare a teacher or, you know, an instructional coach or anyone to kind of support this, this shift? Marlene, do you want to take this one? 

04:44 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Sure, you know, um, I think some, I think some. When we go into a classroom, we have our hope in our hearts and there I don't believe there's any teacher who doesn't. But if we don't come in with a framework and there's some other frameworks out there if we don't come in with a framework, when it gets hard, we just go back to what we know, and what we know is control and we go to shame-based kind of operating, and we don't mean to. But you know, I've been in special education meetings where people will try to inspire kids by saying things like you know, do you want to live in your parents' basement for the rest of your life? And you know things like that. Now, I know those teachers. They have love in their hearts for kids. But if we don't go in with a framework, we just go back to the least common denominator, the one that is most comfortable to us, the one that is the one that we're used to operating from. And it's not anyone's fault, it is just how we were raised, it's the school system we were raised in, it's how adults engaged with us. So I would say that a mind shift set, thank you that we need to focus on is really coming in with a framework that's going to help you in the hot moments. That's a big one. 

06:00
We kind of just, like you know, hold on when something is hard and difficult and we come at it with fear and control. And I think when you have a framework, like tools, not rules, you actually don't come at things with fear and control. You come out with, you come at it with a sense of exploration, a sense of wonder, because I know it works. I've got a whole framework here that's simple to follow, that allows people to go. Okay, I know the next step and I know the next step, and I'm not going to engage in that power struggle and I'm not going to shame the kids and I think I think that's so hard to get to because really, um, we get so frustrated and and we are such human beings and you know I come at things hot and so I can come at things really hot and hard. 

06:49
Claudia often will talk about that. She comes at it at maybe more oh my gosh and she retracts, and so this kind of helps us neutralize both of those behaviors. That allows us to stay assertive, allows us to stay in. So I think that's what I'd say, Mindset shift away from shame, away from control and fear, because we trust in this framework. We know how it operates, we know when we need to call in extra help, we know when we need to call in extra help for the kids and we feel supported by it and then the system can also support us. You know the larger system. So those are some of the mindset shifts I'm thinking about. 

07:34 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Those are awesome. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that actually leads us really nicely into the principles. If you all want to kind of take an attempt at saying those succinctly, I know you list them succinctly, but there's just so much depth that I'm like, oh, we could go so many directions. I love this idea that eliminating shame is kind of built into that, and I know that you, as you were talking, marlene, I was kind of imagining someone in this situation and going through kind of the process that you laid out, like here's what I do next. So feel free to take this in any direction, but I'm curious about kind of the framework, the principles, and maybe, claudia, you can start us off on this one. 

08:11 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
Sure, sure, let's start with honesty. And when we put the posters up, the honesty goes first. And if you can get a class to understand that you really want to know, you know I do really want to know. And that's that curiosity piece Marlene was talking about. We approach it with curiosity. So what is going on for you? And we have been surprised so many times when they know that they can tell us the truth and we're not going to have this big shameful reaction and shake our hand at them and like predict their future. They open up in really beautiful ways and and there have been so many times that we've said, we've assumed as teachers, this is what's going on. And then we say, so, what's going on for you? And we we approach it with an empty, like this. I call it an empty space, but an open space that doesn't feel filled with you know all this pointing, you know getting where you're going to be had in big trouble. It just feels open for them. I'm ready to hear you and they share what's really going on, and then we really get to work. Then that's the honesty piece and then the next piece comes, the self-assessment. So tell us where you're working right now and you can see that in the posters, and we really want them to identify what's going on. That's that self-assessment. That is all over SEL, but we actually make it happen right there. And then they also self-regulate by choosing a different word, one of the green words, you know. 

09:38
So we have a serious assertive and working. So if you're shirking, for example, avoiding your work and working, so if you're shirking, for example, avoiding your work, doing all the things to not want to do the work or not get started, what's something you can do to get working? And even that's a curious question it's not like what are you going to do to get working? Because I'm really tired of you, you know, because that's where we lay the shame in. It's just like so, what can you do? And we're always surprised by that too, because sometimes they say just like so, what can you do? And we're always surprised by that too, because sometimes they say I don't have my worksheet, I forgot it at home. That's a simple fix, right? You know, here's your worksheet. Or sometimes they say I don't like the person I'm sitting with, they're bothering me, and like that's assertive and I'm like okay, we can fix that too. So, so kind of that lays out those pieces of where we start and why those posters were so important and having them do the self-assessment, self-regulation. We're constantly asking them to reflect on how it's going and so that has been something that we go to all the time. 

10:37
When Marlene was talking about it's a system, oh, this is happening, this is what we do. It's a system Predictable. Students know what to expect. And back to that honesty piece If you can't make them feel safe in being honest with you, then the whole thing kind of doesn't stand on a really strong foundation. It kind of feels weak. They don't trust it, they're not sure making big shifts, mindset shifts I would say that is one of the key ones. Trust your students. You know they have stories too. They have lives and things happen, and be open to the truth of that and the honesty of that, and that's really important. 

11:16 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Yeah, I mean I would just say Claudia's point around honesty. We can't kind of overemphasize that enough. Like, if you can't create a classroom where kids feel safe in that way, where you can admit you have flaws, where you can empathize because you've been there, kids aren't going to move in this way. And so you know there's probably other frameworks that would work for people, but that isn't this framework. This framework you have to be really willing to kind of be a self-reflective person, be an empathetic person, be willing to hear the truth from kids, even if it involves you. You know I've heard some really hard truths that are really painful and hard to hear. However, it is liberating because you know like the truth will set you free, right, there is such truth to that in terms of I can admit, oh yeah, I actually think I did use that tone with you in front of people and I did say that mean thing because I was frustrated and I need to apologize. So some of that, really, you got to be willing to be that kind of teacher and I think you know Claudia and I have done a lot of trainings, we've presented to a lot of different people and that's the people it resonates with, the people who are like, oh yeah, like I'm willing to do all those things. I just don't know how to do them. I haven't put it together in a way that kind of to that point of operationalizing it. I have those dreams in my heart, I have those feelings and wishes for kids. So I would say that around kind of the principles of it, that that honesty piece, that ability to hear truth, the truth telling, and then help kids in the ways they need, it doesn't take long and then when they see it and they believe it, they're willing to do it. So we don't save some special treatment for the hardest kids. We don't save some special treatment for the kids who are honors kids, who maybe sometimes cheat on their test. We don't save a special treatment for them. They all get the exact same treatment and that's what we know. It helps every single kid. It helps those kids that are high performing, that feel the need to keep that fixed mindset in place. I have to be the smart kid and in order to be the smart kid, I'm going to copy this paper because I need to prove I can't lose that standing. So we're super excited by Tools, not Rules, because we think it doesn't just help certain kids. We think it liberates all kids and then it liberates teachers. 

13:46
And so when Claudia was talking about her exchange with a student, you know like, okay, tell me what's happening. I want honesty first, and then the kid can say, hey, I'm shirking right now. Okay, amazing. So you immediately shift as a teacher because you're hearing the truth. You're not trying to dig the truth out of like stone, because the kid is already offering you the truth. And we love the truth. We love it. We can feel it in our bodies. Everything about me as a teacher melts open when a kid says yeah, I did say that swear word right to her face because she deserved it, because of this, tell me why. Okay, thank you for your honesty. 

14:26
Now there's going to be some accountability. I get why you said it, but the first thing they hear back from us is thank you for your honesty. It doesn't matter what it is, how painful or shocking it is to us. It is God. It took courage. It took courage to say the truth and own it. Now there might be further things we have to do, and we are really. 

14:50
We love accountability because we think accountability sets us free. In some ways, too, it allows us to right a wrong we did, but then, because we never follow it up, with shame those kids, we start fresh the next moment that that accountability happens, and so isn't that what we all want? Isn't that? What we all want in life is to be able to say I did this wrong thing, I don't want to do it again. I'd like to change the way I do this, but I don't know how. So, anyhow, we think it's good as adults, we think it's great for kids to model this, and we get feedback from kids later on or in the moment how powerful it can be, and so, yeah, we feel really grateful to be able to talk about this work. So, thank you, lindsay. 

15:35 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
I just want to add one more thing. If you get us talking about this, we can't stop. So there's a lot of things out there that say connection with students is so important Connection. You need to connect with your students, okay. So, like Marlene said, when they're honest with you, everything flips. It's like oh, I love you, now we're good, we are so good, we are so square, because I know how to help you and I know that you can trust me, and so there's nothing that replaces that. You know I can do fun activities all day, or let's do this or let's do that. 

16:13
But that piece it solidifies something about you and the student and what they trust you'll do, about you and the student and what they trust you'll do. And I also have to say, when the rest of the class sees that happen, no shame, honesty, accountability. There's even celebration and accountability. You did the thing. It was hard, you had to be in detention, but you did it, great job. And so that piece the rest of the students see that and and and. It does something magical to them too, like we're in this situation here and it's different. And maybe it's me too. I can learn too. I can change some of my behaviors. I can. I can excel, possibly, you know. So it opens up something for kids that they might not have sensed or felt before. 

16:58 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Absolutely. And I just want to say for for listeners, people reading the blog posts and transcript, you know, whoever's engaging with this episode that the book has so many great kind of like a play by play lesson activities of how to roll this out, to create that culture of. We like I, as the teacher, have been there. You raise your hand if you've done this, Like I really appreciated the culture building and the intentionality of those activities, because I could envision someone saying like, oh, I want to do this, but how are, how are they just all of a sudden supposed to be honest, right, but there's like an intentional building of that culture which I really appreciate and feels very practical to me. 

17:32
I'm also curious I know, Claudia, you started talking about this, so maybe I don't know if, Marlene, you want to take point on this the first Sabbath, but the three zones you talked about and the and the idea of like color coding and self assessing, which is a huge part of like SEL conversation. So can you talk us through a little bit about what is that? How does that work? 

17:51 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Yeah, you know, I think when we first started, claudia said, oh, we have shirkers, workers and showboaters. That was her first kind of, one of her strokes of genius on the larger program, and we changed it instead of being nouns to verbs, right, and so shirking, working and showboating and those three things, there's three different types of energy between each of those right, and there's been a lot of work prior to this on the zones of regulation. And so we, you know, once we started developing this, we got the three triads of words. You know, someone said, oh, this works really perfectly with the zones of regulation. You know, this behavior is kind of a hotter, energized, kind of coming, moving forward behavior. So we kind of we got that in the orange and the red. And then, you know, and that would have been the showboating, right, like hey, look at me, I need you to pay attention to me. And then with the shirking, that's kind of a pulling inward, it's kind of a moving away energy, and so that's a cooling off energy, right, so that's kind of the blue coloring. And then the working is that green place, that place where, you know, it feels natural, it feels maybe you're working, you're having to put energy forward. But it's not that negative energy, it's like a curious wonder or I can do this. It's finding your grit, it's all of those great words that I think people have talked about. 

19:13
And so I think the color coding has been really helpful because you know, and so, lindsay, when Claudia and I talk in general, when we present, we say you know who in the audience tends to go towards those orange hot words, and for sure I raise my hand, I go towards showboating, I go towards aggression, whereas Claudia will often tell the group hey, I go towards the blue words, she pulls back, she goes into passive, she goes into shirking. And so you know, it's a marvel for kids who have been passive in school since kindergarten. That's a question we'll often ask. We'll say when did this start? And that's really helpful for us because we don't take it personally, we depersonalize it that way, and they'll say kindergarten oh, that's a long time. That sounds really painful that you have been in that kind of passive place, and it's liberating for them to talk about. 

20:23
So I would just say the colors help us identify kind of the energy that we bring. But we can go to all of those and definitely we all could be in the green. So and that's you know, when we're having conversations with the kids, we'll say, let's say they get stuck. We say, look at the posters, where's your behavior, I don't know. Okay, I want you to just look at the blue words right now, because I have a sense that they're more in those passive behaviors. So I say look at those blue words. What blue word might fit for you right now? So they're great for discussion. They're great for self-awareness. Self-awareness this is work people have done before us. You know, you stand on the shoulders of giants and that's a piece that we've brought into it. So those are my thoughts right now on kind of those zones and the regulation that those bring in. 

21:10 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
Yeah, and can I add to you Thanks, marlene, for saying all that. Like Lindsay said, we have all these activities that you do with the students, because one thing we realized is when we shave, a lot of times we can use words like you're being lazy, you're not doing the work. You know, you. And for a lot of students, especially ones that have been a little bit passive since kindergarten, they don't know what we mean when we say you need to start working, you know. So we do activities with the students Like what does it look like when you're shirking? They love to talk about shirking behaviors. What does it look like when you're showboating? They know exactly what it looks like. 

21:46
It's hysterical when sixth graders and seventh graders start listing what they do oh, I do this, oh, I do you know. We say we do this, we do this, it's our whole class, we do this because we all can do it to get out of stuff. Or to you know what we're doing. And then we say what does it look like to work? What does that working look like? What do you see happening? And it's sometimes as simple as I have my pencil ready, I um, I, I'm sitting down, I'm looking at the teacher, and it's all generated by them. We don't tell them, we ask them what does it look like, what is it, what's going on for you? 

22:25
And so it's not a case where there's a gotcha, where I bring a student over who's been passive since kindergarten and say you need to start working, what can you do? And, and because they have all these choices, like they have processed it as a class, they know what we're talking about. And it can be just this simple change. I think I'll get my pencil out. That's fabulous. Let me help you, right? So it's these tiny steps, and then one step leads to oh, I think I'll get my paper out. Oh, and I can't even tell you how many times now they're starting on the first question. Oh, now they've got two done. Oh, now they're almost done. I've never finished my paper before, you know. So it's it's kind of that whole piece that really helps them feel supported in what they can do. And we, we did a study at Marlene's school and we interviewed students and this cracked me up. One of them said I would just sit and look at the words and think how can I be more assertive? 

23:17 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
You know, because we were wondering do the posters matter? 

23:20 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
And it's just like they would be like how can I be more assertive? What would that look like, you know? And I was like you're kidding. And they're like, no, I do. No, it means a lot to me that I do those hard things, that I'm serious, I'm assertive and I'm working, and I was like, oh, so that was a great finding. Totally surprised us. 

23:40 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That is so great and I love it. You have a. You made me think of a table in your book where the students are describing each of the zones, but they're also describing the why you might be in each of these zones, which I just love student voice and student words, but they just do a wonderful job of explaining that. So that was a beautiful part of the book. Thank you for including it. 

23:59 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
And I, just I I I'm sorry, lindsay, sorry we get talking and oh my gosh, I really apologize for talking over you we get excited. So I just want to say to you about that, that's like the essential piece, the most essential piece, because it's empathy building. So we use the word we why do we get up and go to the nurse? Why do we kick someone out of the table? And so we use we, like Claudia said, because we all put even if we haven't done it, we could potentially do it, we all know we could potentially do it, so that that second chart what does it look like is essential. So then we can like identify oh, I'm doing that thing. And then the why is empathy building. 

24:38
Because once you hear kids say things like we do it because we're nervous, we do it because I was told I was stupid, we do it because someone was super mean to me at recess, we do it because I have hated school my whole life, you know, and at first you might not get that kind of honesty, but you as the teacher, your role is to kind of probe a little bit deeper and someone's going to say it and then everyone's going to relax and breathe deeply and say, yes, that is the truth. Because you know, I teach middle school and they love to say it's because your class is so boring. If your class wasn't so boring, and I always go oh, that's passive, aggressive, but it is true, you know, like um, but you've got to dig deeper. Why is it boring? What's happening? And you and you kind of finesse the conversation to get that level of honesty. 

25:27
Cause the truth is, a lot of kids are afraid, a lot of kids are hurt, a lot of kids are confused. It goes too fast. They don't know but they don't feel they can say those whys. So when we say those whys and we get some of those whys out tremendous empathy building Because kids then you say who's ever felt confused? Raise your hand, who has ever felt they don't understand what the teacher's doing? Who has ever felt embarrassed because they have no idea what's happening? Okay, so everyone's then just outed themselves and now we have something to work on, you know. So, anyhow, I would add that Thanks for pointing out that Y chart, because that is so essential. That gets us to the honesty right. So that Y chart connects us back to the honesty which creates the only kind of classroom that can support this type of framework. 

26:19 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
And, in fact, when we make those lists, it's just reminding me, as they're giving us their ideas. We say thank you for being honest and type it in Thank you for your honesty. That's very honest, thank you so much, thank you so much. And that also creates a sense of oh, that's where we're heading here. It's that space of being honest. 

26:40 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
All right, this is so good. I love all the connections to all the pieces. I have one more kind of big, meaty question and then we'll do a kind of a lightning round, because I know we're a few minutes out from the end. So, star charts Can you talk to us about star charts? I can't remember who started, sorry, claudia, maybe you could start this one for us. Star charts for the kids who, like you, know they just need a little extra. We've been, you know, telling that kid to pick up their pen or do the thing like 100 times or like. Something different needs to happen. 

27:16 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
Star charts are the best thing ever, and Marlene and I always say it's not for the kid, it's for us. So just remember, if you put a child on a star chart, you're really putting yourself on a track of positive interaction. Because teachers are tired sometimes. A lot of times they're frustrated, they feel like it's the same behaviors and we kind of can get into this mindset where the child is purposely picking behaviors to annoy us in every moment of every day, and you know it's rough being in there all day. So when we start feeling that way it the star chart what it's for. We're going to say only positive things to you, we're going to notice positive things, and every time I see a positive thing, I'm going to put a signature on these 10 stars. So it takes them 10 stars to earn it and um, so what it activates in you is you've made this little arrangement with the student and sometimes they're like, no, I don't want to do it. And we say, well, we're going to do it, we're going to do it, it's important. And so we um, it's on a clipboard and as soon as the kid walks in, um, you're, you're on time today. Great job, I'm signing to start, you know. 

28:37
So it's this kind of moment where we can acknowledge we can see them, we can make a quick connection and we let them know. We see you, we see that you're not all of your behavior. You are different things too, but those things were clouding my perception of you. I couldn't really see you. And it forces you 10 times to see something different about that child. And about the fifth time you're like oh, I can see, I can start to see you and I can start to see you. And then they start saying do I have 10 stars yet Do I get 10 stars? How many stars do I have? And then other you know. So it's really this beautiful way that it trains you to see the good, notice the small things. And then suddenly you see shifts to like oh, they turn their homework in. Well, I'm giving you a start with that and I can't even believe you turned your homework in. And I'm calling your parents too to let them know how excited I am. 

29:19
But it's just those small, subtle shifts. You have to like take them, you know, a bit at a time, and that's building that trust, especially in kids who have had awful experiences in classrooms. And so the star chart is so great it works wonders in the classroom and it brings a levity and a happiness to you as you're teaching. That's one thing we talk about in the book Because, you know, feeling happiness, feeling joy while you're teaching that's also something people talk about. 

29:48
Let's bring joy back to teaching. When you're having that conversation with a student, that's positive. They are like what? And you give them the star and you're like great job, and you see them shift. That is joyful, that is regeneration of energy in the classroom. That is kind of what we're after and it makes learning happen, you know, and it's great. So star charts and in our book we show you the star chart and also at our website you can see, you can download a star chart for yourself. If you're not going to do anything, do the star chart, because it is key to making those shifts in your classroom, especially with your hardest pants, especially. 

30:29 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Yeah, and I would add, claudia and Lindsay, that it's not that it makes you perfect. What it does is it makes you remember oh that's right, this kid. I need to pay attention in the spin that happens with this kid, because they hear often just negative things. And that's how we introduce the star chart. Hey, I think you hear just a bunch of negative things from me, is that true? Yeah, and they'll tell you and you're like thanks for the honesty. 

30:59
Okay, I'm going to do it differently. I'm just going to notice good things about you and they can't believe it because it's always been quid pro quo. These kids often are the same kids or it's a new kid, because they get into a power struggle with you and your personality. But it is not. If you do this, I will do this. It is not, it has nothing to do with that, it just has me. 

31:20
Just like Claudia said, she said it perfectly. I'm just going to notice amazing things about you as a human being Because they're there and I'm trying to accomplish something and we're in a power struggle or in some weird dynamic on the things I'm trying to accomplish. But that is not who you are, and so I would just say that that's. It's just so powerful in that regard to actually so I'll find myself on the kid again, I'll find myself self-frustrated again, and then what I remember is oh, they're on a star chart and I'm going to say something positive, and they light up, their souls, feel happier, they can forgive you for getting on them because they know there are things to get on. But when you then can say, hey, you already have six you know, and. 

32:07
I'm whispering a lot and we're communicating, so other kids aren't really aware. Kids are kind of aware but they're not, and we go over that in the book why it really works. And kids are happy when other kids are getting help, the ones that struggle. And so I'll just be like you've got six stars and all of a sudden I've shifted again because I've went from kind of hammering them on something because it's hard not to because you're trying to accomplish things, to like, okay, I'm going to feed them back something positive and like, okay, I'm going to feed them back something positive and they, they are in it with you, they are in that positive. 

32:36
And, like Claudia said, they say the hardest kids, the ones that feel the most jaded, will come up. You know seventh graders, which are a tough lot. They'll come up and say how many stars do I have? You just can't believe it. When it happens, you think, oh, my God, they remembered and we had a kind of a harder day. But they'll be like it's almost like hey, remember, I'm on this, Remember we're doing this together and it, it's really marvelous. And they get a prize and you can come up with your own prizes. We give you ideas on that and, to Claudia's point, everything we've talked about is on our website, and so you know the supporting materials for the supports for the books, the way to roll it out, a few of these other things that we mentioned, and I know you'll probably point that out for us, Lindsay, but I just wanted to say that again, that these things are on there, these tools. 

33:25 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Yeah, that's a great segue. So we will link in the show notes to the website, to the book, so folks can get it. Is there anywhere else that folks can connect with you each online? 

33:34 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
can get it? Is there anywhere else that folks can connect with you each online? You know, I I will say for myself we have all the things, we have the Instagram and we post nothing. So I want you to know, we're those people Like we like did all the things, and then we're like who's going to do this for us? And Claudia's like I can't and I'm like I don't think I can either, and so who's going to do this for us? 

33:55 - Dr. Claudia M. Bertolone-Smith (Guest)
And Claudia's like I can't, and I'm like I don't think I can either, and so so, really, it exists, it exists, and that's a step forward. We're challenging ourselves, we're on a star chart for trying to do better. 

34:04 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
But you know we're really responsive through the website. So you just send us an email and we will get back to you. We will call you, we can set something up a meeting, whatever. So if you don't mind going to you, we will call you, we can set something up a meeting, whatever. So if you don't mind going to wwwtoolsnotrulescom and getting the conversation started, that would be great for us. Our skill sets isn't developed in that area yet. 

34:27 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Awesome, Claudia Marlene. Thank you guys so much for this conversation. It was great. Thank you, Lindsay. 

34:33 - Marlene Moyer (Guest)
Thank you, lindsay, we enjoyed it.

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