230. How is Decision Fatigue and Herd Mentality Showing Up For You? with Dr. ClauDean Kizart

Listen to the episode by clicking the link to your preferred podcast platform below:

• ​Apple podcasts​
• YouTube
• ​Spotify​
• ​Stitcher

---

In this episode, we talk with Dr. ClauDean Kizart, or Dr. K, about insights from her incredible book, Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias: Strategies for Healing the Root Causes of Inequity in Education. Dr. K’s goal is to dig deep down into the root causes of biases, understanding what they are and why they’re there in order to foster equity and growth in the educational system. 


Dr. K discusses some specific types of bias, including herd mentality bias, drawing historical connections and personal anecdotes. She also talks about the concept of decision fatigue, drawing from her 26+ years as an educator to offer practical self-care strategies to help educators mitigate biases and improve decision-making processes. 


The Big Dream
Dr. K. envisions a future where the educational system, made up of the people in that system, fosters cognitive development—providing foundations for reading, writing, arithmetic, etc.—while still managing bias in a healthy, holistic way. She wants to create communities where educators are conscious of their biases and engage in open discussions to drive better outcomes for students. 


Mindset Shifts Required
A significant mindset shift required is to start with the understanding that biases are not inherently negative but a natural part of human behavior. Dr. K stresses that recognizing and managing biases is crucial, rather than viewing them as a moral failing. This shift involves seeing biases as an opportunity for self-reflection and growth, enabling educators to create more inclusive learning environments.


Action StepsTo start managing biases to achieve better outcomes for students, educators can simply focus on two key action steps: identify the bias and take steps to mitigate it. 

Dr. K’s book covers many different ones, but we focus on two in this podcast episode: 

1. Herd mentality bias: Herd mentality is the idea of “going along with the crowd,” or the fact that we tend to agree with people we want to impress or when we feel insecure in our own knowledge and position. Educators can become aware of when they’re “going along” instead of standing up for what they know is true, right, or necessary.
   
   
   
2. Decision fatigue bias: Decision fatigue is something many educators experience when faced with competing priorities and pressures. But without addressing it, it may negatively impact educators' ability to grade well or engage in equitable assessment practices. Educators can address their decision fatigue with some simple steps to care for physical and mental needs. Dr. K offers a lot of practical strategies around this in her book. 

It’s also important for educators to engage in open conversations about biases, as even this process can help identify, understand, and manage them for the best outcomes. 


Challenges?
One of the challenges in addressing biases is overcoming the fear of social alienation when confronting herd mentality biases. Educators may hesitate to speak out against biases due to concerns about being perceived negatively. Dr. K encourages educators to address underlying assumptions and engage in informational, rather than confrontational, dialogues.


One Step to Get Started
To begin diving into your own biases, educators can begin by taking the Harvard Implicit Bias Test. It’s a simple step to gain greater insights into your personal biases, helping educators become more aware of their cognitive processes and how these may affect their interactions in educational settings.

Stay Connected

You can stay connected with Dr. ClauDean Kizart on both Instagram and LinkedIn.  

To help you implement today’s takeaways, grab a copy of Dr. K’s book, Beyond Implicit and Explicit Bias: Strategies for Healing the Root Causes of Inequity in Education. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 230 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 2:16 “Research says that the more that we discuss biases, the more we’re able to see them within ourselves and the more we’re able to actually manage them.”
• 7:07 “I think if we had more intentional conversations about biases with people like myself and other academics and researchers … then as teachers go into education, they’re more knowledgeable and more reflective practitioners.” 
• 10:30 “I wish we had a teacher’s oath like doctors have an oath: “Do no harm.” And I think it’s harmful to not know your own biases and just allow that to come out in your day-to-day interactions with students.” 
• 18:50 “We talk about being lifelong learners, but we’re still learning too. And no matter how young you are… Our Gen Zers… No matter how young you are in education, you have something to contribute.”
• 24:42 “There’s no way you can expect yourself to make quality decisions all day when you have not taken care of your physical, emotional needs. It’s just impossible. And it’s nothing to feel bad about—it’s something we need to manage.”
• 32:14 “I think it’s important that we know how we are showing up in our communities in a way that extends grace, but is in a way that is honest. And sometimes, if we’re honest, we can’t always do that for ourselves. It helps to have tools.”

​​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:

TRANSCRIPT

00:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Dr K, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 

00:07 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
Awesome. Thank you for having me. I'm truly grateful that you thought about me and that for the opportunity to speak about my book with your listeners. 

00:17 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Absolutely, and so, yeah, let's frame the episode with that. I think what initially drew me actually to your book so it's here in my hands and I really I enjoyed the whole title, but particularly the subtitle really really got me. So this idea of healing the root causes of inequity in education, it's like, yeah, someone's got to talk about that. So is there anything you want to say kind of broadly, before we get into specifics, to frame the conversation today around the book? 

00:44 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
So I love that you talked a little bit about the title. 

00:48
I can be a little long winded sometimes and so initially there it was definitely some work around like making sure the title wasn't too long, but it was also very specific and that for me, particularly as a healer, that it focused on healing right as a educator this is my 26th year as an educator we have a lot of methodology, have a lot of methodology, we have a lot of strategies, we have a lot of different types of curriculum and programs and things of that nature, and one of the things that I have observed is that you can have a lot of programs and you can have a lot of initiatives and you can have a lot of curriculum and you can have a lot of methodology. 

01:44
But if the person who is in charge, so to speak, whether that is the administrator or the teacher or the superintendent, if this person who is in charge of carrying the initiative or the program or the curriculum or what have you you through has a bias, you will still have inequities right, and so I think it's really important to discuss these biases. Research says that the more that we discuss biases, the more we're able to see them within ourselves and the more we're able to actually manage them. I think sometimes people think biases are a bad thing or it makes them a bad person, and it's not Absolutely positively, it does not. Having a preference doesn't make you a bad person, right? And so I repeat that, you know, in several stages of my book, because I think it's important to have grace for ourselves and have grace for each other and in the meantime, while we have grace, to do the work to really heal those systemic inequities, in education particularly, and in the world. 

02:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I appreciate so much of what you said. I did not realize that just discussing them is going to do all this. It makes total sense and I love that there's research behind that is going to, you know, do all this things. It makes total sense and I love that there's research behind that. I think one of the things that you know, in line with this idea of healing and in line with it, all of the pieces that you're saying, I love to ask, as one of the first questions, getting into some content, like, in line with this idea of freedom dreaming Dr Bettina Love has a great quote around it right Dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. You, you know what is that big freedom dream that you hold for education? 

03:29 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
I love that question. Uh, that would. That is a first and I love it. The goal, you know, if I, I like to say if I had a magic wand, right, um, and, and talking about freedom dreaming, it would be to have an educational system. Remember, people are systems. So we talk about system, but it's the people who are the system. The system is not like outside of us. Right, we are the system, we are the community. 

04:00
So when we talk about how to have, how to ensure that as a system, we are fostering cognitive development and cognitive thinkers and making sure that students have a foundation of reading, writing and arithmetic and so forth, the goal for me, or the big dream, or the freedom dream for me, would be having that opportunity. That is, I can't say without bias, right, like that's my first mind wants to say, without bias, but when I think about it, bias Dr Beverly Tatum says bias is like small, just everywhere. So it's not that the big dream is without bias. It's in a way where we manage our biases right, where teachers are having conversations and principals and superintendents and instructors and professors are having conversations with each other and with themselves about their own biases in a way that is healthy and holistic and in a way that drives us to be better and to do better for our students, right? Whether they are K-12 or college university students. 

05:24
That would be the big dream, like a community of people who are like, oh, like you said before we started, I noticed that decision fatigue, bias is the same for me. After about this time, I don't really make decisions. Well, if you know that about yourself, how do I then manage that? That would be the big dream. Communities of people who know specific biases, because I think it's not enough to say implicit, or not enough to say explicit, because what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? It's implicit, so talk to me. It's a community of people who would know that there's specific biases. There's over 250 research-based biases, right, that I think any person who is an educator or deals in any form of human services needs to know as a way of how to better work with people, right? So that would be my big turn. That would be my freedom turn. 

06:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love that so much and it gets into. I think the mindset shift that maybe some people are making as they're engaging with this episode is just bias is not bad, it is just part of things and we need to learn to identify them and manage them and that's yeah. I think that's going to be a shift for some people, which is important. 

06:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
Can I share my other big dream, please? Can I share my other big dream? My other big freedom dream is that in teacher preparation programs there's always a session or teacher preparation organizations. I think if we had more conversations or about intentional conversations about biases, with people you know, like myself and other academics as well as researchers who are also practitioners of ensuring that you know we're managing our own biases, then as teachers go into education right and into the field, they're more knowledgeable and more reflective practitioners in that. But every teacher preparation program has a whether it is not necessarily a module, because I think that we need to have conversations around our biases, not just this electronic click here do you know this? But have conversations to unpack those right. But I think my big dream would be facilitating those conversations on large scales with teacher organization groups or teacher preparation. 

08:09 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Oh my gosh, I think you're so right. I totally agree, because I do remember there was like a quick module or something in my teacher prep program and it was just. I mean reading your book and I'm reading. I'm also reading Reclaiming Authenticity, which is a beautiful companion to read. I read them in the same plane ride as I read your book and it was this beautiful kind of conversation. What I noticed is that all of the scenarios you include in your book and all of the kind of reflections that they have of like these misstep moments, moments where bias came in, it's just like those are the learning moments, like I need that illustrated, and how better to do that than like reflecting in conversation and sharing. 

08:50 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
And and scenarios, right, I don't. I think one of the I got a tad bit emotional because I just feel like we need to prepare our teachers better. I just feel like we need to prepare our teachers better. Majority of the teachers that I know like come into education because they want to work with students. They want to make an impact in the field of education. They want to educate. 

09:29
It's not, you know, some people you hear if you can't, what do they say? If you can't, whatever teach. I don't know many people who are like that. Most of the people that I know education love students and love education and want to make an impact. Right, and one of the things that kind of gets me is the preparation part. Right, we do the preparation when it comes to do you know reading methodology. We do the preparation. Do you know math methodology. 

09:51
But I think we still need to do a better job, especially now. Especially now, right, our country is growing more and more different, diverse, and I think that those differences are part of our strength, right, but I think right now, it's about how do we utilize that as a strength and prepare our teachers to ensure that they are going out into the world of education that they love to deal with differences in a way that does no harm. I wish we had, like a teacher oath, like doctors have a oath. I talk about that in my book. Do no harm, right. And I think it's harmful to not know your own biases and just to just allow that to come out in your day-to-day interactions with students and not stop yourself because you don't even know that you're doing it. 

10:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Oh my gosh. Yes, so true, and I think so. Maybe maybe we can do this. Maybe we can just kind of name some of the biases in the book. I don't want to give the whole thing away because people need to go get the book and we'll link to that. Yeah, it is so good, but I'm wondering if we can name some of the things for people to start being like oh, that's what you mean by a specific type of bias. How does that sound? Absolutely Okay, awesome. Are there ones you want to? You want to shout out some of your favorites? Or I have, I have my favorites that I wrote that are like really, let's talk about your favorites, oh, okay, great. So I personally resonated with herd mentality and decision fatigue. 

11:31
Bias Like I could pinpoint, both for myself and for people that I've worked with, like oh, I can pinpoint moment after moment that are tied to those biases. 

11:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
So I won't say that those two are my favorite, but I will say that those two are especially herd mentality bias. It is one of the most researched based biases that there is, and actually herd mentality bias was researched back in the late 1900s. So that's one of the things that I thought was really cool is that biases have been discussed for a very long time and researched for a very long time, but it's like we're just now really scratching the surface on them, right, which is I think it's cool. But it's like, okay, we gotta, we gotta get to get to the get to the good part where we are really discussing them specifically and managing them specifically, right. And so in I think it was 1895, there was a French social psychologist who developed. He wrote a book and in that book it was called the Crowd, a Study of the Popular Mind, and in that book he talks about herd mentality and he compares like herd mentality to like going along with the crowd Right, hence the name of the book. 

13:22
We are experiencing a sense of maybe insecurity, because we don't think that we know as much as another person. They may be in a position of power, or it may be three or four people who are saying the same thing and we don't have the strength or know-how as to how to engage in a way that is not confrontational but informational. Right, and I talk about an example in my book with me, because that was something that I experienced early on when I was an educator, right, like there was this conversation about Spanish speaking students and I probably this was maybe my fourth year as a teacher and so of course, you know you're getting to know teachers, you're wanting to be in good community with teachers, and there was a few teachers in the work room, in the cafeteria not the cafeteria, but like the workspace and they were talking about a particular student who was Spanish speaking, and one of the teachers said you know, well, I hate that when they come here, that they even have an option. You know, if you're coming to the country, it shouldn't even be an option. You know if you're coming to the country, it shouldn't even be an option. You should be, you should speak English, and I knew that we were getting a new Spanish speaking student and that student was being assigned to that person's classroom and there were some other things that were said that I was like man, you know, that's a, that's a bias, and how is that student going to be treated? And, and you know that's a, that's a bias, and how is that student going to be treated? And you know, and I'm not saying that that person is a bad person, not at all. I'm saying that that person's bias as it relates to, to, to Spanish-speaking people, was very evident. You know, in the conversation and she said some other select things about you know. You know when that person gets in class that they're going to make sure that they do X, y, z, but it was like in a. It wasn't in a kind way, right, it wasn't a. How can we get the supports for this student so that, you know, we understand that English is their sacred language and we're going to have them up. It wasn't in that way, right, and I didn't say a word, right? I went along with the herd and then later on I was just really uncomfortable, so I just stopped eating lunch with them and stopped going into the room, you know, into the teacher workroom, and they were in there and that wasn't the good, that wasn't the best way to handle it. Teacher workroom, and they were in there and that wasn't the good, that wasn't the best way to handle it. Um, at the time I realized that and I remember one of my mentors saying you know, why didn't you say anything? And I was just like I didn't want to come off as you know, different I, I'm new here, I want to make friends here and that kind of thing. 

16:17
And then fast forward to another incident that I speak with, speak about in my book. I was part of this organization and they started saying welcome to the jungle when they started talking about a particular predominantly black school. And I noticed that they didn't have any rhymes for other schools that were not predominantly Black. And I don't know if I go into all the details in the book, so this might be like a special for everybody, our break. And I was like, listen, this is what I'm hearing, this is what they're saying. It's wrong. I just I don't. I'll be honest with you. I said I don't want to seem like the angry Black woman because I was the only Black woman that was in there, only Black person at all that was in there and I said I don't want to seem like the angry Black woman and say something. 

17:13
You know this is a new job and my mentor said Dr K, there is nothing angry about you, that's just not who you are. I encourage you to go in there and ask the question. And I was like what do you mean? He was like ask them, you know, what is it about this school that makes you have, that, makes you call this the jungle? Do you have other pet names or pet songs for other schools? And that was the thing. 

17:43
I didn't know how to ask the question or what question to ask. And so now one of my things when things happen is OK, dr K, ask the question, right, and so that that that herd mentality bias can be seen in so many different ways. You know, um, and then it's also called various things. You know, there was another um, a British surgeon back in 1914 who called it herd behavior. Um, there was Sigmund Freud called it herd instinct, and so it's been like couched under different names, but it's all the same thing. 

18:24
It is going along with the herd, and that can be out of fear for being different or because, hey, I just I want to go along and get along, or I don't even know what to say. You know, I don't want to seem different or I don't even know what to say. You know, and I don't want to seem different, or I don't want to make waves. Right, but when you're talking about working with students, whether, again, k-12 or higher ed, sometimes you have to be the person that asks the question. Right, we talk about being lifelong learners, but we're still learning too. Right? And no matter how young you are listen, you're right. Right, our Gen Zers no matter how young you are in education, you have something to contribute. So, whether you, if you walk in a room and it's people who have been in education for 20, 30 years, you deserve to be in that room and your voice is important. You give perspective, you know, and so be okay with knowing that your gift, your presence in that room, is a gift to the whole. 

19:36 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Oh my gosh, thank you for all of that. Thank you for sharing. I think, again, those specific situations require so much like vulnerability to share. I I can add to like I resonate deeply with, like the sitting in a teacher's lounge or you know, and listening, and even as a coach, being like Ooh, I'm going to like pick my battles, like no, no, that, like that is, pick that one and that one and that one, like say something, ask the question. So I also appreciate that your action step of asking the question is so important and I love that for folks who are not sold yet, like get the book because it has a whole section of tips of like how to counteract, which I really appreciate. That was like the most heavily annotated part of it. I was like, oh, this is what I need to do, and I think I mean specifically to the decision fatigue one. I even like I read it two days ago and I already have in place a system for some of the tips that you had said for decision fatigue, Like I was like. 

20:29
I have a coach. She's going to box me multiple times a day and just be like did you drink water in? The last hour Like did you? Did you eat food today? 

20:37 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
That's good and I love that you took that step and I love and I appreciate that you are letting listeners know that. And again, the play on words, beyond implicit and explicit bias. This is not about, oh my goodness, I have this bias. This is about, oh my goodness, I am biased in this area. And now what do I do? So how do we get beyond that, beyond the shame, beyond the blame and all that other stuff that does nobody any good right. We have different lived experiences Okay. We come from diverse and different backgrounds. Okay, and now what? How do we work with that? And it's possible to work with that in a way that is beautiful and beneficial for us all. So, knowing strategies, those strategies are a way to get beyond our biases. 

21:33 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Absolutely, and I know we will really end up into herd mentality or or or kind of that herd bias. Do you want to talk just for a little bit around decision? Because I I? What was interesting to me was I was like, oh, I can see these things happening, but I didn't always connect them to making decisions and the impact on classrooms, like the one thing. I'll just say I'm going to stop talking and let you talk. The one thing that really got me has been talking a lot about equitable assessment lately and when we're talking about the impact of decision fatigue on grading, I was like, oh my goodness, this is so good, so I mean bad, but good that you reveal it for us. 

22:14 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
But it's come on, it's the truth. Let's just be honest. It's the truth, a hundred percent, and that's part of the work. Being honest with ourselves, right, I have been the teacher that has taken, you know, papers home to grade and really just wanted to be on my porch or really just wanted to, you know, do things with my kids, and there may be, or I just schedule a time during that time where I just dive in and grade the papers. You know, everybody has their, their theme that they're really great at and their thing that they're just not so great at, right, and for me it was grading papers, right, you know, the lesson planning, planning and all that good thing. I really enjoyed that part. The differentiated learning, I really enjoyed that part, but for me it was the grading the papers. Uh, so, listeners, don't judge me, we all have our thing. That is like I'm gonna take the sweet part, but there's also this part that I just don't like. And how do I manage that part that I just don't like? And how do I manage that part that I just don't like about my job? 

23:23
But yeah, so with decision fatigue, it's very interesting because this is another bias that was coined back in. This was. But this was like 1990, 1990s, late 1990s, like 1998, early 2000s, and originally the research really had to do with what is called ego depletion and you know, ego is that aspect of us that's like I know, I know this, but after a while, everybody you get tired, you get tired. And if we're honest with ourselves, we live in a society and especially as teachers, you know there's so much that we have on our plates right, and we're often stretched very thin right. And sometimes there are some school districts that are doing a great job with, you know, reminding people about wellness and self-care and things of that nature. And there's some that are like we just got, we don't even have time, we got to keep it moving. And if you think about that in your own personal life, sometimes we're like I got to keep it moving and I may or may not eat until you know the evening where I'm realizing wait a minute, have I drank water? Have I? There's no way you can expect yourself to make quality decisions all day when you have not taken care of your physical, emotional needs. It's just, it's impossible and it's nothing we need to feel bad about. It's something we need to manage. It's impossible and it's nothing we need to feel bad about, it's something we need to manage Right. 

25:13
This is the original research, which is interesting, about decision fatigue parole significantly more in the morning, right when we're fresh, right compared to the end of the day. So think about it you may have two people who are up for parole for the very same thing. This study showed significantly not just slightly significantly more that if that person who went up for parole for the same thing, same circumstances, may get parole if they go early in the morning, if they see that judge early in the morning, and if that same person came back at the end of the day for the exact same thing, exact same circumstances, race, color, creed and all that would probably get a different outcome with the parole. And so that was the basis of the study originally when it first came out back in, like I said, in the 1990s, and so now there's more and more research, including the research that's in my book about how that impacts teachers and administrators. 

26:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I'm thinking about that immediate parallel too. I think this might've been a fictional scenario that you wrote, or maybe it was a real one where, like a principal is, you know, giving the suspension to the kid, the third kid in the day that has like graffitied the wall or the desk, and it's like the first kid it's okay, next kid, it's okay. Would everyone just stop graffiting like suspension and like that is so real, like that is so real that that is either at the school level or the teacher level that that happens and that's and it's such a simple, potentially simple thing. That's like if that teacher ate lunch or that principal ate lunch or had like 10 minute walk to like free their mind a little bit and just take a breather, like all these little tips that you give to actively take care of yourself may interrupt that bias. It's wild that that is like that's what we can do and that's what a gift to give ourselves and everyone around us. 

27:20 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
I love that. What a gift to give ourselves and everyone around us. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, yep. 

27:30 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Thank you for just breaking this down for us, for I mean, you take so much research, distill it so succinctly and then give us a real like, really tangible like. 

27:40 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
I connect so deeply to all these scenarios we've probably that was the goal so I'm really happy that you get that, because that was the goal not to make it too short, not to make it too long, but to make it palatable. 

27:53
You know, because, again, we teachers we got we often have a very full plate and so I feel like I think that my book is a companion piece, it's a discussion piece, it's a book study piece, it's a piece that can be used in schools all around the country, all around the world, just, you know, as a book study, as a as a way to from instructional coaches, and you know it's various ways that I think the information in my book can be used, because my grandmother used to say it's a sorry dog that don't wag its own tail, right. 

28:29
And so I say this yes, because I wrote it, but also because I wrote it with teachers, with educators in mind. Right, I've been a classroom teacher, I have worked in higher education, I've been an administrator, so I wrote this with educators in various capacities in mind, and so, even if you notice the scenarios, there's different scenarios with different people, with different types of educators and different types of students. All that was done on purpose, because I want everyone to be able to see themselves, but see themselves with some grace, in a way that encourages change. We don't, you don't have change through shame and guilt and blame. You have change through grace. 

29:16 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
And it doesn't serve anyone to just sit in the shame and blame right yeah, Thank you for that. Or to just sit in the shame and blame right yeah, Thank you for that. 

29:21 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
Or to just tell me that I'm biased and not give me strategies Like what do I do with that? 

29:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Yes, such a good point. Such a good point, and so I think you know folks are going to order the book as they're listening and while it is en route to them, I'm curious what is like one thing they could do as they end the episode, to just kind of start thinking this way, practicing some of the stuff that we've talked about and that's in your book, like what's like kind of a one thing they could do in the next hour. 

29:51 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
In the next hour, better at social media and I will get better at social media. I would say follow me at DocKizArt, because I'll talk about different types of biases on my social media. Listen, I'm knocking on 50. I'm not saying I'm not young, I'm not old. There are certain elements of social media that I'm getting used to and starting to learn more about, and so I recognize that that is a good platform for learning, and so one of my goals is to utilize that platform better. So if I was a listener, I'd say listen, I'm going to go follow Dr Kisart on social media to learn more about these various types of biases. 

30:40
The other thing that I would recommend is to take the Harvard Implicit Bias Test right. It's completely free. You can just do a quick Google search for Harvard Implicit Bias Test. They have several categories of tests that you can take. Some of them are religious, some of them are political, some of them are race and ethnicity, but it's a wonderful way to get insight about your. 

31:11
We talk to our students all the time about metacognition, thinking about your thinking. 

31:15
It's a wonderful way to think about our thinking, and especially now when there's we find ourselves kind of like there's some polarization happening right, and I'll just speak on it. 

31:31
There's polarization happening where people think that, well, if you supported this person in office, then you're a bad person, if you didn't support this person in office, then you're a good person or a bad person or whatever. And we're coexisting, we're working together, right, and so I think that implicit bias test on politics is really important for us all to take, because we're coexisting, but we don't like if we're not consciously aware that I may be saying and doing things because I know that you did support this person or you didn't support this person, or all these changes are happening and so now you know. I think it's important that we know how we are showing up in our communities in a way that, like I said, it extends grace, but in a way that is honest, and sometimes, if we're honest, we can't always do that for ourselves. It helps to have tools. We give it to our students. We need to give it to ourselves. 

32:37 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Thank you for sharing that. I think that's that's so important and I I I'll close with these two questions. I think you've kind of touched on them a little bit. We'll do kind of a lightning round One. What is something you've been learning about lately? You did mention being a lifelong learner. Right, we all are. So I'm curious it could be professional related Prochain. 

33:04 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
Fun. I've been learning about Prochain. I have a niece, nazari, and we were at Michael's not too long ago. I live in Virginia and they live in Chicago and I went to go visit and I said, oh, I can make you, tati Clowney, make me a scarf. I was like, yes. So we went to Michael's and she wanted a pink and purple scarf. Well, I have never integrated colors before. So I was like, oh, my goodness, how am I gonna make a pink and a purple scarf, like like I don't even know? So I am learning going to make a pink and a purple scarf Like I don't even know. So I am learning how to integrate colors when crocheting. 

33:46 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That is beautiful, and thank you for the backstory of the answer, loved it. And finally, I think you mentioned this a little bit social media, but where can people connect with you? Is that the best place to go? Is there a website? We'll drop a link to the book, of course, as well. 

34:00 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
Yes, absolutely so. You can purchase the book on solutiontreecom. It is a publishing company. You can also purchase the book on Amazon. For people who are still like, hey, I'm an Amazon, what is it? Amazonite Making up words now? But you can purchase it on Barnes and Noble has it on their website as well. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn, dr Claudine Kisart. You can also connect with me via email at doc D-O-C-K-I-Z-A-R-T dockisart at gmailcom. You can follow me on Instagram at doc kids art. On Instagram, I do work with schools as a you know consultant to support schools and facilitating assessments and facilitating courageous conversations around biases and things of that nature and not sorry, mr Singleton, I know I said courageous conversation and that might be proprietary for his organization, but having conversations around navigating through biases, ensuring that and again, I also wanna say this before we go Biases is not a DEI thing. 

35:21
Hear me well, right, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I understand that there are schools and school districts who really are being mindful about and have to be careful because of legislation regarding saying things like inclusive or equitable or things like DEI stuff. My book is not just a DEI book. My book is again, think about it. Many of these biases were discussed and researched way before the field of DEI, right Way before. 

35:56
My book is a school improvement book. My book is a reflective practitioner book for educators, irrespective of what level of education you're in, be it administrator, new teacher, you know classroom teacher that's been in school, that's been an educator for one year, two years, 30 years, 40 years, right, I wanna make sure that readers also understand that you can read this book safely. Right, your school can order this book and have book studies and book conversations. You can call on me to come support your schools with understanding how to navigate through their biases and things of that nature, because it's not a DEI book. This is a school improvement and how to close achievement gaps book. 

36:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Appreciate that and for the people who are super into like anti-racism and DEI and like, the implications are very clear for doing this work and getting good results, absolutely, absolutely. 

37:06 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
I just I think you know, unfortunately, where we are in life. It's important. And then you said something about anti-racism, right? I am often very mindful when it comes to associating my work with anti-racism because I'm pro-people, right? 

37:31
I read this book a while ago about I love Buddhist philosophies, and one of the things that I read in this book it's called it's how to love is like sometimes. And then there's another book it's about the art of compassion and it talks about it. One of the things that they say is whatever you're hyper focused on is what you see. Is whatever you're hyper-focused on is what you see. And so I was like huh. And so they talked about like racism and anti-racism as an example, just, this was some years ago that I read this, and they were like you know, if you're focused on being anti-racist, right, then and this is just for me, like just how I conceptualize things, then your focus, then you're looking at things through a lens of race and racism, right, for me. 

38:25
I don't know about everybody else and everybody has their lane. In my lane, I look at things through a pro-people right, not an anti-anything, but a pro-people right, not an anti-anything but a pro, uh, people, how do we, as people who have differences whether it's differences of of race, ethnicity, gender, socialization, uh, social economic ability, height, you know, weight, lookism and all that other kind of stuff how do we still work together? Right, and to me that's not anti anything, it's pro people. 

39:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Thank you for that. You've given me a lot to think about and, with that, thank you so much for the entire conversation. I really I've enjoyed your book so much. 

39:15 - Dr. Kizart (Guest)
I've enjoyed this conversation so much I appreciate being with you. You're welcome. And thank you for having me. I truly appreciate that. 

​