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In this episode, we talk with Jillayne Flanders and Dr. Orinthia Harris—Jill and Dr. OH—about the critical and necessary shift from compliance to compassion in education, particularly early childhood education. They introduce themes from their two books, Little Learners, Big Hearts, and Advancing Empathy and Equity in Early Childhood Education, both of which are centered on the heart—compassion as the root of all equity practices.
Advocating for embedding empathy and equity into teaching practices, Jill and Dr. OH offer practical tools to educators to move from compliance to compassion in their classrooms, centering everything they do on values of compassion, empathy, and equity. The Big Dream Jill articulates a powerful vision for education: "That every child sees themselves reflected, somehow, in wherever they are in the world.” This involves zooming out to look around the classroom to see if there are posters, pictures, books, or other things that represent each child, their families, and cultures. Dr. OH continues, dreaming of an educational space where all teachers are mindful of their interactions with students, basing them on compassion. This takes emotional intelligence on the part of the educator to self-regulate and interact with a child in a way that encodes in each student’s mind that they are worthy, belong, and matter. Mindset Shifts Required Shifting from compliance to compassion requires one big mindset shift: seeing teaching, simply, as a series of interactions. So, how are you interacting with students? Is it rooted in compassion and empathy? By shifting to this perspective, educators can focus on each interaction with a student as an opportunity to be compassionate, meeting students where they are. Action Steps Shifting from a mindset of compliance to one of compassion starts with the heart. Dr. OH and Jill developed the acronym HEART+ to show educators what this practically looks like. Here are the six steps to embody an anti-racist and pro-human educational practice: H—Hope: Start with hope. It’s what drives action and makes change. While everything can feel overwhelming, you can focus on what’s possible in your context. No, racism isn’t going to end in your lifetime, but it can end in your classroom—that’s hope. H—Education: This step is about self-education, where teachers learn about both themselves and their students. Educate yourself about what students are dealing with and suffering with. It’s not their responsibility to educate you, but yours to learn. A—Acknowledge: After you’ve learned about what your students and their families are experiencing, you must acknowledge the suffering they’re going through. We cannot abolish what we cannot acknowledge! R—Resolution: You’ve learned, you’ve acknowledged—now, what to do? Resolve to take action. Dr. O and Jill lay out many practical action steps educators can do to implement in their classrooms, meetings, or professional development settings. T—Teaching: Teaching is nothing more than a set of interactions—are they based on compassion? How are you teaching and interacting? Keep this mindset in place and focus on that individual student interaction level. PLUS: The + in the HEART+ acronym accounts for individuality and specificity to each educator, classroom, or community situation. You need to adapt and change to your specific context, not just following protocols or using resources robotically. Challenges? One of the significant challenges in this work is navigating the discomfort and resistance that may arise when discussing equity and diversity. Leaders must be prepared to support faculty and staff through these difficult conversations, encouraging self-reflection and examination of unconscious biases, while using tools and resources to support their work. One Step to Get Started One simple step for educators to get started is a mindset shift: have an internal conversation and ask, “Where am I coming from? What are my internal biases?” It’s a hard thing to do, but an important place to start. Educators can also consider a simple action step to take, such as integrating children's literature into your classroom or faculty meetings—it opens conversations and is a non-threatening entry point for meaningful discussions on identity and diversity. Stay Connected You can find this Dr. OH online under the names @STEMearly on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube and @OrinthiaHarrisPhD on Instagram as well. Both Dr. OH and Jill are associated with the Center for Educational Improvement, which you can learn more about on their website. To help you implement today’s takeaways, our guests are sharing their video series How to Choose PD that Honors Early Childhood Teachers with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 228 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
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TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Jill and Dr O. Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. Hey, thank you for having us. Hi so excited you're here I'm really excited to talk about. I have both books on my table here, so we have Little Learners, big Hearts, which is kind of the teacher version, if I've got that right, and then the Advancing Empathy and Equity in Early Childhood Education, the leader kind of companion book. I've read them both. I'm excited to dig in. Is there anything that you both kind of want to frame before we jump into the questions today around the book, or kind of what's on your mind? 00:34 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, please do, Orinthia, you are really good at setting the stage. 00:39 - Dr. OH (Guest) Well, first of all, thank you for having us. We're excited. I'm glad you read both books and enjoyed both books. You know everything we do is centered around the heart and what compassion and empathy and equity really look like. So just want to center this conversation on. We're really interested in moving from compliance to compassion and that's what these both of these books are really all about. Especially in an age where words like equity and inclusion are being demonized, we really want to set the conversation that the basis of all equity work is compassion, which is a work of the heart. So hopefully in this conversation you'll hear our passion for that come through, versus anything that might be considered divisive and like. I don't understand why these terms are being demonized, but I want to acknowledge that they are and just say from the get this is really about compassion, it's not about compliance. It's not about checking a box. It's about what does advancing empathy and equity really look like when it comes to our teaching practices. 01:48 - Jill Flanders (Guest) That's so well said, erinthea. And by really focusing on early childhood education, we're clear that three-year-olds don't come to us alone. They come to us with their families, and the conversation then is extended not from what just happens in your classroom or your program, but to what we can encourage around compassion and empathy for families and how they interact in the world. And I think the other theme that you're going to hear from us today is that it's not okay to do nothing. We're really going to suggest some easy things that can happen by the end of the program and then some more challenging things that educators and parents might want to choose to do to elevate compassion. 02:37 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Love that and, as I was saying to Jill right before having a doctorate, that I, as a parent of a three-year-old, right now really connected on the parent level as well as the educator level, so really excited about that piece, feels really valuable. We're already like using some of the strategies and just like thinking about the approaches, so it has been very helpful. Thank you, um and and I think one of the big questions I want to start with, so we'll get really big and then we'll come back to the book. But but I really love Dr Bettina loves like words and the way she says things, and so she talks about freedom, dreaming by saying their dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, which I love, and I think it's really connected to your book. So I'm just I'm curious from each of you what is your kind of big dream that you hold for education? 03:21 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, absolutely that every child sees themselves reflected, somehow reflect who you are in your family, what's your culture. We'll talk about that a little bit in personal terms for us, but it's one of the easiest first steps is just take that big scan of what's going on around you. So, absolutely connecting to Bettina Love in terms of are you reflected in your daily world? 04:08 - Dr. OH (Guest) That's good. I think my big dream is that teachers would be mindful in all of their interactions with students and that their interactions would be based on compassion, which would take emotional intelligence on the part of every educator and them being able to regulate their own emotions because kids can take us there. We say, oh, it's just a three-year-old, it's just a four-year-old, but they can take us there. And so my big dream is that teachers everywhere would be mindful in their interactions with students, knowing that when they interact with students, they're actually encoding something in their brain. And I would love for teachers to consistently encode in the brains of students, especially young students birth to five, that they're worthy and that they belong and that, even if they're getting on my nerves and I'm at my short fuse, I have enough emotional intelligence to know and self-regulation to know when I interact with this child, I am encoding something in their brain and I would love it for it always to be to encode you're worthy, you belong, you matter, even if you're getting on my nerves. 05:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That resonates deeply. Thank you for that. That is really good, and I think so. I think this might be a good time to introduce the hard or hard plus framework that you all talk about, because I think that really grounds and connects to what you're talking about. Does one of you want to maybe start and the other can jump in? 05:43 - Dr. OH (Guest) I'll jump in. And so this came about as we were doing this work and teachers were saying what can I practically do to be anti-racist, pro-human in my practice? Like we learned about it, we're learning about, but what can I do? What does that process look like? And so I came up with this acronym HEART, because it really is. Equity is a work of heart, right? Anti-racism, it's all a work of heart. And so the acronym is the H is for hope. 06:09 You have to start with hope. We're not going to end racism in our lifetime, but you can end it in your classroom. And if you don't start from a point of I can do something in my classroom in my lifetime, in my generation, then it's just going to seem too big and you'll get frustrated. And again we talk about how hope wishful thinking is not hopeful living right, when you have hope, hope has feet, which means I'm going to do something about it. And so you have to come in, not with the mindset of the savior complex, and also not with the mindset of being oh my gosh, this is too big, but with the mindset of in my classroom, in my time, in my lifetime, even if it's just this one family, this one student, I can make a difference. So you have to start with hope and then you have to go to the education piece. You have to educate yourself and we say self-education about your families, your students and what they're dealing with. What is the suffering that they're dealing with? It is not their responsibility to, it's not their responsibility to educate you. You have to educate yourself because they're the ones going through the trauma and the you know all the things. And so a lot of times when the Black Lives Matter movement happened and Black people as a culture were experiencing a lot of trauma Like I didn't watch the George Floyd tape, I didn't watch any of it, and my kids didn't watch the news or any of it People were coming to me saying, well, what can we do? What can we do? It's almost like if you lose a loved one and you're grieving and people are asking you what should we do? What should we do? No, just pick up a mop, bring a casserole, don't ask me Right. And so if you're dealing with students and families that are dealing with suffering, you have to educate. What is their history? What are they dealing with? What are some of the things that I can do? 08:03 And once you educate yourself, then that comes to the A, which is the acknowledgement. You have to acknowledge the suffering that people are going through, because oftentimes we see it, we educate ourselves with it, but then we want to turn the blind's eye. You cannot abolish what you will not acknowledge right and so now that? And you cannot acknowledge what you do not acknowledge right and so now that? And you cannot acknowledge but you do not know. So now that we know right, cause we've done the self-education, let us acknowledge that this is an issue. And then let's go to the R, let's make a resolution. What am I gonna do? I resolve to blank and we have a ton of resources in both books of practical things that you can do. I resolve to blank and we have a ton of resources in both books of practical things that you can do your resolutions. These are things you can do with your staff, with your students, with your families, with your own children. We give you a ton of resources so you can say you know what for this school year, I resolve to do this at the first staff meeting of every month, or I resolve to do that and then the last T. The T is for teaching. 09:12 We subscribe to the definition that teaching is nothing more than a set of interactions. Right, and so are our interactions based in compassion. How are you teaching? How are you interacting? I did a session yesterday and we talked about moving from compliance to compassion. If a student says I need water, and you throw the water at them or you give them water in a dirty glass, did you really give them what they needed? Yes, you resolved, I'm going to give water, but did you give water in a way that is receptive, that the student could, you know, literally drink the water? You know so that T is so important, because we have to remind people that teaching is nothing more than a series of interactions. So, with that resolution, yeah, we're going to do this staff meeting once a month and we're going to dig into the activity at the end of chapter five, because it's on bullying and we really like that. How are you presenting that activity to your staff? Are you just throwing them a worksheet? All right, guys, let's do this work Like no. 10:23 And then we added a plus. We said heart plus. The reason why we added the plus is because we understand that every school, every family, every community is unique, and so the plus means what are you going to do to make this cater to your school, right? So maybe we have one through 10 and you may need number 11, or maybe we have one through 10 and five doesn't resonate with your building. Okay, then, don't do number five. 10:54 A lot of times we get these resources and we want to use them as like robotic, and we cannot do that, and so that's why we added the plus for schools to be mindful that this has to be catered to your population, because it's so important that we honor those whom we serve and we don't throw stuff at them that may not fit into their culture, their tribal culture. You know their, whatever their culture, their religious culture, whatever it is in the building. So when you're looking at the heart again, you start with hope. Then you self-educate, you acknowledge the education that you've gained, you make a resolution what are you going to do? And then, when it comes to my teaching, my interaction, how am I going to do that? And I'm going to go to plus. I'm going to make sure this works for my people. That was a lot. 11:54 - Jill Flanders (Guest) There you go All of the training in 10 minutes. We're also really cognizant that it's not always in any kind of sequential order. Yes, you can spell the word heart, but you may need to jump ahead, you may need to go back and revisit, you need to read the room. In other words, and from my perspective as a former principal, that's probably the number one building block. It's starting with, as Dr Rose said, the relationships you're building, the communication you're having, getting to know your program, your community, your faculty and your families, and what are the things that will resonate with them and your families and what are the things that will resonate with them. 12:45 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I love it. There's so much in there that is just like so connected. I just I love, even just foundationally, that teaching is a series of interactions, right, and this idea that it is dynamic, it is not I'm going to throw this stuff at you Like literally. I'm not going to just literally throw it at you. Yeah, okay, this is resonating deeply. Thank you all. So I think I want to make sure we get to the leader pieces, so I'm trying to pace us on time too. I'm curious, while we can like be in the teacher space for a minute, if there is a particular strategy or kind of aha moment or like thing you want to lift up from the book and I can share a couple of mine. If you want to like kick it off with that, oh yeah, I'd love to. So I really liked. 13:18 I liked the children's literature. Having a three-year-old, I immediately got Strictly no Elephants, which has become an immediate favorite. So thank you for that recommendation. But also, you know, all of the analysis of made total sense to me. So, like the sweet words, jar loves, like the calmness elevator, just like the rainbow breathing. There are so many things we're already doing in my home now because of this book. So thank you. Are there favorite pieces for you all from that? 13:53 - Jill Flanders (Guest) classroom lens, the teacher lens for you all from that classroom lens, the teacher lens. The children's literature, I think, is probably the least controversial method to begin in many, many different layers. So when we talk a little bit more about the leadership part of this, I would also begin there with children's literature In my heart. I would love to see any principal starting off faculty meetings with one good children's book that opens the conversation. I would love to see this in middle school and high school because the conversations so often have not happened there. But what a way to just open the door. We also, the book, talk about taking different paths with children's literature. You can go to Ibram Kendi and start off with Anti-Racist Baby if you really want to jump right in, but you don't have to. 14:48 There are lots of other choices and I think one of my favorite things to look at you mentioned it about the percentages of children's books that are based with animal characters. It takes a little while. You might want to spend some time up and down the aisles, but I've been looking more, you know, more focused on books that have actual photographs of real kids, real families, and this was one that just melted my heart my youngest daughter's married to a Puerto Rican, a handsome Puerto Rican man, and their two daughters have very different shades of skin. Alina the oldest, at one point when she was three or four, announced to me out of the blue, as three-year-olds do Grimmie, my skin matches daddy's, but Elise, the younger sister, Elise's skin matches mommy's, and you know what? I think that's really cool and we're both Puerto Rican, but you know what? Grimmy, Mommy's never going to be Puerto Rican. 15:53 So it's like, okay, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I knew in my educator brain. I should jump on this as a teachable moment. Of course, I just sat there with my mouth open and said, yep, you're right. But I found some awesome books that you know. One in particular is the Color of Us, and when I did bring it home and showed Alina, her first reaction at age three was to match her arm to the photos in the book. Now, we should be doing that. We have to have the opportunities for kids to be able to do that. 16:24 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Absolutely, Dr O. Do you have a favorite strategy or piece from the book? 16:29 - Dr. OH (Guest) I would also say the chart that allows leaders to know what books are where on the continuum of the conversation. So leaders are equipped by saying okay, if I start with Born on Water, here's some of the things that I can do. Here's some of the conversations that I have, and I think the book recommendation and the chart also will help leaders disarm their staff. Because when you hear Born on Water, you immediately like if you have never read the book and you only subscribe to the news media that is divisive, you automatically are like no we can't do it. 17:10 But if you actually pick up the book and read it and read through it, it's like, oh, this book is really about her being proud to actually be an American, proud of where she comes from, proud of where she is, and the book ends with her drawing an American flag. So not sure how that's anti-patriotic, but with this chart and this guide, it allows our leaders to give them. Okay, if you take this book, here's the routes in which you can go. And I think that for me, that was my favorite resource, because it wasn't simply a book list right, because anybody can give a book list but it's a book list that shows you if you're ready to dive right in turn some heads. 17:56 Here's some books. And also here's why we chose to put these books in this category, because here is some of the pushback you might get by bringing this book up. But here is the conversations that you can have. So we don't leave you hanging with just a book list and say, here you go, that you can have. So we don't leave you hanging with just a book list and say, here you go. And I thought that that resource is super, super helpful for leaders and people who really want to get their staff involved and have staff that are reluctant to do the work because they are buying into the divisive language that is being surrounded in these topics. 18:39 - Jill Flanders (Guest) You know Dr O really touches on an important part there. This can be incredibly uncomfortable and we want to acknowledge that. These are uncomfortable conversations, no matter where you start and where you lead with it. We've tried to come up with you know, be sensitive about it and come up with non-threatening, you know openers, but buried in it is taking the time to do some examination of unconscious bias, to do some reflection with you know, again as a school leader or program leader with your faculty and staff and man, that's going to be hard and we're we're honest about that. 19:22 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, that's reminding me of, like the tiered system of equity supports image that you have and so connected to the heart plus model, right, I'm thinking about like the education piece, like the info building as tier one, and then you have the tier two we're reducing bias. I love all. I mean I guess we'll go, we'll shift over to leader pieces. I love the kind of decision-making conversations that you have about that and I think I think the most interesting piece for me, I think paired with the this tiered system visual, was this idea of strategic planning with a healing focus, and I thought that that was really profound because, right, we think about like the divisiveness, right, dr O, that you were mentioning, and so I think the healing seems to me to be the path forward. Just the folks in education spaces who are talking about that. It's like it's deeply resonating, at least with me. I don't know about everyone else, but I think that that speaks to something that is so counter to what we see in popular media and news programming and all the things that, right, are divisive, and so I'm curious and I mean I'll again, I'll just, I'm just like repeating back to you things in the book because I just loved it, but I love that you. 20:28 You know you had the Desmond Tutu quote, who I just absolutely love about like we don't heal in isolation. You had the research on like when you add feelings to decision making, it actually improves decisions. I think of conversations I've been in and strategic planning conversations where it is so kind of traditional and like authoritarian and this is the way we do this right and we leave feelings at the door and we don't incorporate those into decisions. And I kind of want to like meld all this stuff into one question, which is can you say a bit about this idea of healing focused strategic planning? Particularly I'm curious about, like how you've had success with folks coming to that, or has there been resistance to folks coming to that or a challenge from folks approaching it in this way, and what have you kind of done to coach them through it? Sorry, that was a really big one. 21:26 - Jill Flanders (Guest) The reality is the lack of time to really spend on this and again, I'm speaking from the perspective of a principal of, you know, of a public school. 21:37 It's important to make the time because it, you know, a yes, it's going to be uncomfortable. B it's probably a conversation that has not happened with faculty and staff and the commitment to, you know, opening the conversation and then supporting the hard stuff as it erupts, because I can actually say that I have had faculty members that have had to leave the conversation, that it's just, they just can't manage it, but being, you know, acknowledging that, being open to taking care of yourself and what you need to do, but not giving up. And you know we can also tell you this, you know our proposals here. What we've written about is still, you know, fairly new. We're still working in some pilot programs in some schools with you know, how did this go? What would you change? What would you do next? And so that's one of the things we're really eager to hear from schools and school leaders and programs about what did and didn't you know go well and how can we add to our conversation. 22:46 - Dr. OH (Guest) I was going to also add that you have to make the time because if you don't, you'll be moving forward with broken pieces. So if I break my ankle and I don't allow time for it to heal, it's going to reset but it'll always be broken. Like I have a finger that you can't tell right now but I can't straighten it out because I took too long to get the cast. So by the time I went back to do the proper healing, yeah, it's fine, I can move it, but I don't have full use of it. And so I think that's what's happening is we are acknowledging the hurt and the trauma that has happened in our environments, and that's great right. That goes back to that acknowledgement piece. I think we're doing a better job as a whole in education of acknowledging Maybe not necessarily acknowledging some of the historical past, but I think collectively acknowledging that there is a collective trauma that happened from COVID. I think we're united on that right. And so there's this united acknowledgement that there is some healing that needs to happen because of trauma, but there's not the space to make it happen. And so students are self-correcting and healing without the proper, I guess, support and when that happens you're moving forward on broken pieces and there's always that trauma trigger that's in the back somewhere and when that make mistakes and to be themselves. 24:24 I had an incident with a student and actually he and for whatever reason, blew up and wrote some really nasty things about the teacher, curse words, on his paper. The teacher saw the paper and said, took the paper and said okay, bud, when you're ready to come back, you come back. If you need more paper to write, I'll give you more. The teacher never, and I mean he called the teacher some things on this paper. And when we were talking about the incident with the teacher, I just was wondering like hey, did that not upset you? Did it not make you mad? Like this is an incident that is principle worthy, ok, especially some of the things that he said, that they were a little bit racial also, and from you know, because it was two different races of kids student, I mean student teacher and he said Dr O, that's not who that kid is. He was frustrated we all get frustrated, I'm not going to take it personally and he just let it go because he was like that's, that student didn't need a trip to the principal's office. That student needed someone to say I get angry too. And you know what he said, dr O. 25:47 At the end of the day, that student came back up to me and said you know, mr So-and-so, I really apologize, I shouldn't have written that stuff about you. And he said buddy, don't even worry about it, I know I get that way. And then he said I say some things to my wife sometimes that I shouldn't say, and so I sympathize. You know what I mean. So I think, given that time and that space for students to really feel safe and feel seen which means we cannot let the rules speak louder than compassion we can't, we can't. 26:18 And so that requires us for teachers to let go of perfection and really practice self-compassion. 26:26 And also, how do I connect with my students? 26:30 And in order for that to happen, like Jill says, you have to give the space. 26:35 And when I say the space, I mean the space in staff meetings where leadership says hey guys, I know this, this and this is the policy, but if you have a student that you know this is not their nature and they're on 100, and you're able to get them from 100 back down to one and move on with your day, please don't write an incident report. 27:09 I'm giving you permission to not report that because some teachers feel like, oh my God, I have to report it. That's what they say and I'm going to. That's what I mean when I say giving teachers the permission to be compassionate, giving them the permission to say please, don't let these rules speak louder than compassion, because what is the goal of education at the end of the day? Right? So what is our ultimate goal for these students at the end of the day? And if we don't put healing back into the conversation, we're going to continue to keep moving forward and not really fully heal to the point where we're able to use all of our you know resources to the best of our ability, because we're going to be turning out students that still have trauma that they haven't dealt with and, subsequently, adults that still have trauma. 28:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) And subsequently adults that still have trauma. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yes, I'm just like head-sapping all over the place. My parenting brain is very into the Good Inside podcast with Dr Becky Kennedy, and so the thing that's always in my head is most generous interpretation, our MGI, and so I've like tried to practice that. I mean we could do that out loud with kids, like we'll we'll get cut off by a driver or something and we'll just be like, hmm, that person must've been in a hurry, I hope everyone's okay, right, like what is the way that we can reconceive like a perceived hurt and like you can practice in tiny ways? I just that would be such a beautiful educational experience if everyone interacted in that way. 28:40 - Dr. OH (Guest) A hundred percent, and I think it was Thoreau that said it's not, it's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. 28:49 - Jill Flanders (Guest) I was just going to say that We've been reading the same things on Facebook today, dr Rowe, but Dr Rowe just did an absolute masterclass in modeling what we're talking about as well, and this is also close to our hearts that the leaders that are trying to open up the space and the time for this work are also modeling at the same time with the other adults that they work with. Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. 29:24 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Yeah, oh, that's totally true. Yeah, right, because the kids replicate the things that they see us do, right, all the time. 29:33 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Right and yes, and yet we're not perfect. I think that's just as important. I mean, we're going to blow up, we're going to say those things to whoever cut us off in traffic, but acknowledging it doesn't. And here's another Dr O thing Acknowledgement does not mean acceptance, so applied in a variety of ways. 29:53 - Dr. OH (Guest) A hundred percent, because they mirror that children mirror. That's what they do. And what I say is could things be the way they are? Because you're the way you are, and what one thing could you change? That can change everything. You can change the way you see your students, your staff and your coworkers. If you see them differently, you will treat them differently. 30:16 And acceptance does not mean agreement. Right Acknowledgement doesn't mean I agree with this behavior. You know away with this notion that being compassionate to a child somehow means that I'm okay with the fact that they just threw a chair across the room. No, I'm not okay with the fact that they threw the chair across the room, but is me going to a hundred going to get them to where I need them to be? Is me actually the opposite? They might pick up a second chair, you know. But it definitely takes that the way. Our lenses have to change for how we see our students and also how we see ourselves, because the reason why a lot of us can't be compassionate with our students is because we're not compassionate with ourselves. 31:15 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Just going to let that one sit for a minute. Yes, yeah, that's absolutely true. All right, we wow, we have gone a lot of places. This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm looking at time Um, we'll do maybe like a little lightning rounds here with a few final questions. Um, what is kind of one practice or strategy or even mindset, like just way of thinking about others, um, or about things, uh, that you would say someone could start right now, like so they order the book, it's in the mail, but right now they want to start and do something while it's on its way. What would be that one thing? 31:55 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Jill, you go first. Yeah, I've got about six in my head. You know I'm going to sort through this and start with yourself, I think. Have an internal conversation. Where are you coming from? What might be some of your internal bias, which is a hard thing to do. It's not the easiest place to start. So then, part two is the easy place to start is what is the do? Something that you can do right away, and I will revert back to my children's literature. Find one book. Find one book that speaks to you. 32:30 - Dr. OH (Guest) That's good. That's good. I would say the one thing you can do is try to see it from the other person's perspective. So every time you feel offended or upset or frustration, or your children are getting on your nerves, you don't like your administrator, whatever those feelings that come up that are getting you to a negative state, a negative state, how might that other person be feeling Like? What is their perspective? Because, at the end of the day, everything we experience is ultimately just our perception of it and it's not the whole picture. 33:13 So can I put myself in your shoes and say how might you see this? Say how might you see this? And just simply doing that can bring us back to a state of where we are, a state of calm, a state of where we're not just reacting right, we're actually processing what is really happening in this situation. Why did my administrator say this? Why did this student go off in this way? How what could be happening from their perspective? And start centering others, which is really hard, especially when your amygdala is hijacked and you're in your feelings. But I would say, practice perspective taking of others. 34:06 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Beautiful suggestions. This question is for fun what have each of you been learning about lately? It could relate to our conversation or just be totally random. 34:15 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Oh, I'm dying to talk about this. Our focus was on anti-racism and, just because of everything, we were focused on Black children, black families. I have wandered off into. I need to know more about Indigenous families, indigenous cultures, and you know, I'm in Massachusetts. I have connected with educators in the Wampanoag tribe and there are children's books. Oh my gosh, I have a whole new pile and just I mean just the history that I was not aware of is crushing in many ways, but I'm doing something about it. 35:00 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) I am learning in many ways, but I'm doing something about it. I am learning. I have to say Keep On A Muck is one of our favorite books. We jumped right to that, as we did Born On the Water and Keep On A Muck, and we should have probably started with like the Colors Of Us Right in. 35:13 - Dr. OH (Guest) Right in For me. I've been learning about a lot about biomarkers and genetic testing. I recently took a position, a contractual position, as the program director for the Color of Wellness, which is a program that's under the Touch for Life nonprofit organization and essentially what they do is kind of similar to what we do in education is they go around to conferences and they educate. You know the people in the conference on different types of cancers, breast cancers you know we talk about in education are also disparities in healthcare and the whole idea of patient care bedside manner. How are we giving the BIPOC community access? What are these barriers to access? 36:17 And, as someone who has no background in the medical field, to come into this space and be like, it sounds like we all might be dealing with something similar. It sounds like we all need lessons in compassion and perspective taking because people are not getting life-saving treatment because the barriers of who they are and similar in education, where we talk about you know, there's not a lot of representation in gifted and talented classes or the over-representation of BIPOC students in special education. Those disparities are also happening in healthcare, so it sounds like that this is not an education conversation. I feel like this book can be on the shelves of doctors as well, and nurses, because if teaching is nothing more than a series of interactions, then I would dare to say that when I'm at the doctor's office, them practicing as a doctor with their patients is also a set of interactions. 37:23 - Jill Flanders (Guest) So this tiered system of equity supports in education could easily be a tiered system of supports in healthcare, and you know, Lindsay, over time we have really found that we get it right in early education and early childhood, but we're not really good at talking about it. We know that you have to work with the whole child. There aren't separate times that you do reading and math and all those things. They're learning everything at once, all integrated and all tied together. So, focusing on early childhood because we get it right there, hopefully we'll carry on through the rest of education and, as Arinthia said, and in other fields as well. 38:14 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Amazing. Well, thank you both for this conversation. Where can people reach out to you or connect with you if they want? And we'll, of course, link to the books as well in the show notes. 38:25 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Well, we are both. Actually we're both on all of those social media platforms. Arinthia is much better at it than I am. I take that as generational and I'm okay with it. If, if you really want good connections, probably talk to the eight-year-old that's downstairs I mean mine's. By my name, by Jill Flanders. We through, I think, through the connections through Amazon and through the Solution Tree I think our emails are there as well. 38:57 - Dr. OH (Guest) Yep, and you can follow me on all platforms, at STEM Early one word S-T-E-M-E-A-R-L-Y. Or you can find me at Avinthia Harris, on all platforms as well. I might be Dr O on TikTok. I meant to go change that. So you might have to go to TikTok and you look for Arinthea Harris. You're like I don't see her. It's Dr O, but LinkedIn, facebook, instagram, Twitter, it's all Arinthea Harris and also STEM Early. So you'll see, you'll find our content on both pages. 39:33 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Arinthea and I are both associated with the Center for Educational Improvement as well, which has its own website at edimprovementorg. 39:43 - Dr. OH (Guest) Yeah, we're everywhere you want to be. 39:46 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) That's so good. All right, thank you so much, Dr Owen-Jill. It has been an absolute pleasure. 39:51 - Jill Flanders (Guest) Yay, thank you so much, lindsay.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
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