221. Facilitating Contentious Conversations? Paraphrase Your Butt Off with Carolyn McKanders

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In this episode, we chat with Carolyn McKanders, an educator with over 28 years of experience in Detroit public schools. As the co-author of “It's Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators,” Carolyn interviewed over 400 teachers and their supervisors in diverse schools to understand mindsets and principles that guide behavioral choices. 

Carolyn shares insights from those interviews and her book to emphasize the importance of shifting from technical to adaptive mindsets, highlighting the power of positive intent, and listening to build trust and understanding. Carolyn provides practical techniques that can be contextualized for classrooms, adult meetings, student-to-student meetings, and more.


The Big Dream 

Carolyn deeply believes that, given the context of our world, who we are as educators really matters. She dreams that we continue to honor the diverse ways people show up in the world, because we can’t teach without that. She envisions educators embracing each student's unique presence and to engage with them moment-to-moment, fostering environments of love and respect. 


Mindset Shifts Required

To unlock educators’ role as facilitators, it’s key to shift from a technical mindset to an adaptive one. People often focus on planning a meeting and the steps to get there. Instead, meetings are really more about a complex system based on relationships, so it’s important to be adaptive to the energy and interpersonal connections present. 

Another key mindset shift is to presume positive intent. Start with the idea that people’s behaviors are their best attempts to take care of themselves, not that they have it out for you. 


Action Steps  
To embark on your journey as an educator-facilitator, embrace these action steps: 

Step 1: Embrace the mindset of presuming positive intent, understanding that behaviors are individuals' best attempts at self-care. This helps educators stay resourceful and empathetic. Educators can also begin with a growth-oriented mindset, accepting where the group is and understanding that they can grow in time.

Step 2: Create a psychologically safe environment by implementing visible working agreements and inclusion strategies that honor diverse voices and perspectives. Research backs up the fact that diverse groups make better decisions, so harness this power in your group.

Step 3: “When in doubt, paraphrase your butt off!” Carolyn encourages educators to develop the skill of effective paraphrasing, going beyond mere repetition to engage with others cognitively, socially, emotionally, and spiritually. This fosters trust and helps develop the ability to listen to understand. 


Challenges?

One challenge educators may face is overcoming ingrained technical mindsets and adopting more adaptive, relationship-focused approaches. Additionally, educators may encounter resistance when implementing new strategies in environments accustomed to traditional methods.

One Step to Get Started 

Carolyn has five simple steps for facilitators to start with: Greet your audience and thank people, have a clear purpose (write it out!), have an inclusion strategy that brings people together, and have a visible working agreement in place. Finally, have the presumption of positive intent and keep a light, joyful tone as you do the work. 

Stay Connected

You can find more from Carolyn on their website, Instagram, and LinkedIn. You can also grab a copy of her book, It's Your Turn: Teachers as Facilitators, to go further in-depth into the content we discussed together. 

To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my ​​Staying Engaged in Difficult Conversations scripts with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 221 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 3:31 “Teaching students is highly relational, and the quality of the relationship between the teacher and the students directly mediates learning.”
  
• 11:29 “The presumption of positive intent doesn’t mean that people are right. It means that people walk in as much light as they have in the moment, and it’s our job to bring light and not throw shade … It says that people are doing the best they can in that moment and that they have the capacity, when mediated in productive ways, to do even better.”
  
• 35:41 “Paraphrasing within the group is a foundational point for collaborative dialogue. You cannot have collaborative dialogue without the foundational skill and willingness to listen, to understand.”
  

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:

TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Carolyn McCanders. Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 

00:06 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited. 

00:09 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Me too. I am so excited because I just read your book. It's your Turn, teachers, as Facilitators, and I absolutely loved it. And so really excited to dive in to the concepts, to just a few chapters, maybe as a deep dive and I'd love to know you know what's important for listeners to know, either about the book or you. To kind of frame the conversation today First me. 

00:32 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
I'm a teacher at heart, I was born a teacher and I'll always be a teacher, and so I spent 28 years in Detroit public schools as a teacher counselor, staff development person, still teaching, and now I'm an international presenter and working with my favorite mentor, Robert Garmston. And this book came about because we listen to teachers. Teachers are put into leadership positions and often are not given what they need to interact with their peers. They do this tension. They have this dance where they have to be peers or stay connected to their peers. They do this tension. They have this dance where they have to be peers or stay connected to their peers while at the same time taking on leadership positions. 

01:33
And we interviewed over 400 teacher leaders and their supervisors in diverse US schools and international schools and they told us what they needed. And so we answered that call and responded to that data by putting together the teachers as facilitators. But most books around facilitation are filled with mostly tools and strategies. Our take on this was to start with internally, with people's mindsets and principles, because principles guide behavioral Principles Guide Behavioral Choices, and so we even have quotations from teachers in the book, and what we found is that everybody needs this. We started with teachers, and yet anyone who facilitates meetings and support collaboration from diverse voices can use the book. 

02:50 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love that. I'm going to jump on top of that to add one more layer too. I was reading it too as a former teacher to be like oh, this actually could work if you're facilitating kind of a class discussion of students as well. 

03:04 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Absolutely positively. In our workshop we always say listen, because the students are my heart really. That's why I'm still doing this Listen for ways to use this in your classroom with students. In fact, we actually unpack that classroom with students. In fact we actually unpack that because this book is highly relational and teaching students is highly relational and the quality of the relationship between the teacher and students directly mediates learning, and so we actually lift that too. So, yes, the book, because it's about mindsets and principles. The application of these can be contextualized for classrooms, for adult meetings, for student-to-student meetings, for it could be principal meetings too, principal staff meetings. So the work is highly adaptable. 

04:17 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Amazing. I love that so much because, yeah, anyone can pick it up and use it and put it to work immediately. And so I think now like taking a little bit of a step back. One of the first things I like to ask guests is kind of in line with this idea of freedom, dreaming which Dr Bettina Love describes as dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. Just such great language. What is the big dream that you hold for education, either through the lens of the book or just in general? 

04:46 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Boy, when you say that, it kind of grabs me and honestly I feel a little emotional about that, because I do have big dreams for education right now. Given the context of our world, context of our world, who we are as educators to these kids really really matters right now. My dream is that we continue to honor the diverse ways people show up in this world. It's because you can't teach without that. So my hope is that we actually love each other and love the students. I actually teach self-love too, teach self-love too, and I just hope that we pay attention to who each individual is and honor that moment to moment to moment in teaching and in learning and engaging with each other as educators. 

06:04 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Thank you for that, and I think specifically the chapters that I was really interested in are specifically about kind of that. I think like being able to think about polarities and differences of opinion and right. So I'm really excited to get into all of this. I am curious. I also like to start kind of soon in the thread of conversations on the podcast with mindset, because I think sometimes there's like a mindset shift that can just unlock a lot of the practical strategy pieces, and so I'm curious are there any kind of mindset shifts that you have seen unlock kind of the way teachers facilitate or that you would coach teachers to embrace as they become facilitators that have been helpful that you would coach teachers to embrace as they become facilitators. 

06:47 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
That have been helpful. A mindset shift from technical to adaptive is a huge mindset shift in terms of working with people that we've seen People focus on planning the meeting, and here are the steps that we will matriculate in this meeting. Here are the topics that we will matriculate in this meeting. When meetings are really more about the complex adaptive system that you're immersed in, that's based on quality relationships, and that's been a huge shift, mindset shift. It's like, oh, we're not telling you not to plan and not to be ready. 

07:31
What we're saying is that the most important thing in the room is energy and the most important way to create that updraft of energy is through relationships, quality relationships in the meeting. So that's a huge shift that we're seeing in the work. Also, the presumption that people's behaviors are their best attempts to take care of themselves. They don't have it in or out for you, they're trying to take care of themselves. And another shift is that people can be understood somatically, that is, through their body language and reading, not just words but taking them in holistically to interact with them, and the presumption of positive intent. So those are big shifts. 

08:44 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Absolutely. I remember highlighting, like multiple times in the book, this idea that behaviors are our best attempts to take care of ourselves. I love that I never heard someone put it in that language. That rings so true, and I also think I mean from a parenting and teaching lens too. Like I mean, you could see this so often in children. It's just like, oh yes, that's exactly what that behavior was. 

09:07 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Yes, and understanding that uh keeps the teacher's resourcefulness, keeps the facilitator's resourcefulness and gives grace to students and it gives grace to adults also, in structuring that lesson, structuring that interaction, structuring that meeting in ways that support people in choosing productive behaviors to take care of themselves, since what we're seeing is always that dance of I need to make sure I'm safe, I need to make sure I'm connected, I need to make sure I'm loved, I need to make sure my interests are being handled well. And so how the teacher structures the interactions, how a facilitator structures the interactions, can support productive choices and taking care of oneself. 

10:19 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That makes total sense, because I've seen people kind of reel at the idea of like a discussion norm, similar kind of to this but not quite hitting at the same thing. That is, you know, assume best intentions. I think you had you had said language similar to that earlier and and kind of with the context of you know, as a person with particular identities in a society that is very oppressive. You know it's hard to come into that space, and so what I'm hearing from you is kind of like we kind of honor that, we, we, we give people grace and we don't let like negative behaviors or harmful behaviors like fester and continue. We actually structure it in a way that is productive while giving everyone grace. Is that right? 

11:04 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
absolutely, and the presumption of positive intent is one of the most misunderstood principles on earth right right now. 

11:13
Um, especially if you, if your, your lived experience has been one of oppression, we come there suspicious and so, because of our lived experiences, the presumption of positive intent doesn't mean that people are right. 

11:34
It means that people walk in as much light as they have in the moment, and it's our job to bring light and not throw shade. So the presumption of positive intent says that people are doing the best that they can in that moment and that they have the capacity, when mediated in productive ways, to even do better than they are now. And the presumption of positive intent is really for the person who is doing that act. It keeps you curious and not furious, is what I say. You know, and that curiosity sparks inquiry. It sparks you to say to stay away from heavy judgment and to start to say I'm wondering how that person got to that position, what took them to that particular opinion or action. And so you become more of an inquirer and, using empathic language and empathic response patterns, so it makes you more productive, grounded and able to navigate these natural tensions that are just there in human systems. 

13:13 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Absolutely Okay. There's so much I'm writing down right now. This is really good. It reminds me a lot of chapters four and five of your book. So I'm just reading the chapter titles here. But diversity and riches, inclusion makes groups smarter. And then chapter five never let a conflict go to waste, liberate opportunities. I was just really excited about this and I think they kind of speak to some of the tensions you were mentioning and kind of the facilitator moves and skills and kind of mindsets that you need to have to be effective in those situations. Is there anything from those chapters specifically that you want to lift up for us? 

13:49 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Sure, first I want to say that the book builds to those chapters, and the first chapter or mindset is see a group as it could be and to have a growth-oriented attitude, perspective mindset for a group that means you can take them from where they are. You accept where they are, you accept where they are, knowing that through grace and through skills, mental dispositions, and they can be taught, they can learn, they can develop over time, which is needed for the last two chapters. And then groups grant consent is another mindset. Your role or position does not grant you consent to lead. You have to get that consent through credibility and relationships, and that is needed for those last two chapters. And plan don't attach is a third mindset which says you have to be ready to be flexible and use improvisation with groups. So you want to take those and then go to diversity enriches what we found over and over in the research that groups that think alike, that have homogeneous backgrounds and so on and so forth, they make very bland decisions and groups often resort to apathy in those groups because there's just too much agreement. And so what we found is that when facilitators, leaders, can harvest the diverse voices and create a psychologically safe container for those group members actually enjoy meetings better. The depth of the conversation and the meaningfulness of the conversation increases exponentially, decisions that are made are more innovative and more people actually implement those decisions. 

16:38
And now the thing is, how do you harness all the power of the diverse voices within a group? One is to know that diversity is period. It just is period. It just is period. And so you're not. You're either honoring it or you're not, because it's always there. So, starting from that, like you're not doing a special favor by noticing it, it's just there. And what are you going to do with it? And so, and then all of chapters one, two, three and four are necessary for using conflict as a resource. Definitely because there are natural tensions in all social systems. Either we ignore them and be vulnerable to them, or we find ways, tools, mental dispositions, agreements, talking structures to honor them and navigate them, so that, in this case, that we're doing our best for students. 

18:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Thank you so much for that overview and the reminder that right it's building. You don't just jump right to the forefront, you don't just dive into conflict. Right, you've built all of these things first. I think that was really important. Thank you for naming that, and then I really liked two particular tools that you specifically named in the book that could support these paraphrasing and polarity mapping. Do you want to talk about either one or both of those to give people a sense of you know? What does that even look like or feel like? 

18:32 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
That's so funny that you pick those. People who know me would say that I would pick those. In fact, I'm known for saying, when in doubt, paraphrase your butt off. I'm known for saying that all over the world because there are polarities. And so let's take a look at why does Carolyn always saying paraphrase your butt off all the time? One it takes care. 

19:03
Well, when I say paraphrasing, I don't mean paraphrasing, I mean really taking in someone holistically. See first, it's not just repeating back what somebody says, it's taking in them cognitively, socially, emotionally, spiritually. Taking in and asking yourself who is this person and what is it that they are really meaning, what are their values, what are their beliefs that they're expressing, what are their mental models, what are they bringing right now to the table? And then honoring that by seeking to understand. So it's setting aside yourself for the moment that to me, in my opinion, this is truly servant leadership is honored also by seeking to understand values, beliefs, the identity that they're bringing, their lived experiences that are poured into this one sentence that they've said to you, or that's poured into this rant that they've just done, and it actually is the number one relationship building tool, professionally and personally. When you provide. 

20:45
That service reflects back to a person their emotions, if they're highly emotional, and the content around which they are emotional. It also creates clarity of communication between people. It also what I, what I just love. We call it an Aikido move. It goes with the energy instead of pushing against a force. It actually helps the brain to settle down, the personality self to settle down when it feels that it's being heard. And it's hard to push against understanding. 

21:48
When people feel understood what we found, it actually changes their brain chemistry so that they the serotonin level goes up and they actually start to just relax. And it's the number one trusting behavior that you can do with another person not talking but listening. And so we found that three kinds of paraphrases are really important, especially when working with all groups. I don't even want to say diverse groups, because there's just as much diversity present if everybody looks like you or sounds like you or whatever. But the common ground paraphrase is so useful for navigating diverse perspectives when navigating conflict or tensions in groups. The common ground paraphrase listens across diverse perspectives, reaches in, grabs out a common value, a common belief, a common identity, a common goal, a common goal and offers it to the group so that they can coalesce, be coherent and move forward together. 

23:40
And then there is the polarity paraphrase, which is one of my most favorite paraphrases. 

23:42
It normalizes tensions that are within a group and it says you're right, and you're right too, guess what? And we need each other because polarities are two or more right answers that are interdependent, which means you can't put one down if you expect a positive outcome. So both the answers are needed for positive outcomes Now, and there are tensions between them, like paying attention to work and paying attention to home. You have to pay attention to both to have a good outcome, which is a balanced life. You can't put one down without the whole thing collapsing, and so offering groups lifting a polarity paraphrase normalizes the tensions. Also, it honors diverse voices because it says, for example, some people feel that students should be toe the line and follow all the rules, whereas some people feel that students need to be given the opportunity to make decisions and to practice choice making and to be given grace in those areas inside, and you can lift polarities and say so. There's a natural tension occurring here between having students follow guidelines while at the same time honoring their need for freedom and flexibility, and so it scoops that up and then you name a higher purpose so that our students are successful in life, so that our students are able to navigate schooling better, and so effective facilitators. Especially these days when we're highly polarized, it's a non-negotiable paraphrase to be able to listen for that and grab a couple of polarities and present them to the group. 

26:30
The other paraphrase is the acknowledging paraphrase. Everybody wants to be acknowledged. They want their emotions to be acknowledged. Now here's the skill with this kind of paraphrase you must know how to paraphrase without taking people to hell. I always say you've got to be able to paraphrase emotions and content while keeping the resourcefulness of the person or the group. So your paraphrase should light a pathway when you're honoring feelings and I'll give an example I might say to a group you know it's really frustrating when the parents that we expect to come to our meetings are not there, and where that frustration comes from wanting to build a team with parents and then to get the group to say yes, because there's a pathway within that you're honoring and acknowledging and creating a pathway for positive action. Those are the best paraphrases, not just yeah, all the parents just get on our nerves because I don't know what they're doing. They're not showing up, which I call the hell paraphrase. 

28:07 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That is so helpful. I could easily see how just that one phrase just directs to a very different conversation to be able to bring them into that lighting up pathway, as you said. Brilliant, I really appreciate just naming all of those types of polarities and I am actively thinking about how again back to the beginning, we were talking about how anyone could use this. So a teacher facilitating a group of teachers I could easily think of a bunch of examples of like teacher team meetings where these moves could be used. I'm also envisioning, in a class conversation right, if there's a student who's actually quite good at listening but is often undervalued because they're not maybe speaking a hundred times like maybe a couple other kids, to be able to jump in as a student and be like here's what I'm hearing. You know there's this tension happening that would be just like a next level move that most teachers would just like fall over with excitement about. 

29:03 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
That is so, so true, to teach students that listening is often more valuable than talking. And then when you talk based on listening, the talk is going to be a higher quality talk and can be a paraphrase which liberates resourcefulness within your colleagues or your students or your friends to say you all are talking about the same thing. You're really valuing where we take our trips at the end of the school year, even though we've been all over the place. But there's this big value of the. The location seems to be the biggest value that we have, that if, when a student does that, they've liberated the whole group from just being all over the place. And so, yes, and we know places and spaces many in the country and internationally where teachers have introduced paraphrasing or listening to understand, and it's often in conflict resolution, and I invite teachers to use it more than in conflict resolution but to teach this skill as a teaching, learning skill, also for students. Boy, they can really help teach a lesson if they paraphrase the concepts and the ideas that are in that lesson and the ideas that are in that lesson, and so you can be and what you can paraphrase, you have learned it more deeply. And so we know spaces where there's lots of paraphrasing or listening to understand, going on in classrooms and also going on in adult meetings. It has to be taught, though it has to be in. Teaching involves giving foundational information and then modeling and practice. It's not only a commitment and it's a skill that needs to be taught and practiced. We know elementary school students to listen to understand. 

32:13
Also another. I'm also a counselor and I teach people to paraphrase themselves Listening to yourself, to understand yourself. So to say to yourself I used to counsel in middle school, which you know is so needed because sometimes they don't know what they mean but helping them to paraphrase themselves. To say, if you were going to talk to yourself now about the most important thing for you, what would you say to yourself? You know, or you just said da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Reach down in there and pull out a goal for yourself. And really it's about teaching them to say well, I just said this and a goal for me is da-da-da-da-da-da. They just paraphrase themselves. They sought to understand which is really cool. They sought to understand which is really cool. So I want to encourage counselors, school counselors, to to bring that into their practices and never let a kid leave a counseling session without paraphrasing. You paraphrase them and have the student paraphrase themselves. What are you leaving with? Which is the organizing paraphrase that can be used? 

33:35
Paraphrasing is at the top of a facilitator's toolkit, especially for chapter mindsets four and five, which is crafting a container of psychological safety so that people know that their voice is valued and there won't be any put downs, and also making seeking to understand a working agreement within a group. 

34:12
And so I was in a group in Detroit where there were 12 precocious consultants and we all thought we had the right answer, and we probably did with polarities, but we didn't know better at that time. 

34:27
And yet we decided that we would make listening to understand as one of our working agreements, and we used to call it malpractice to throw out an idea before seeking to understand, and so to when someone speaks, to understand them before throwing out an idea. So the paraphrase gives you permission to do three things in a meeting we teach Once the person gives you sign off, I paraphrase and say so a value that you hold is student self-management. And then you wait and the person gives you sign off, they'll go like, yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Then they might go on another run and you paraphrase that too, and then you have permission to one add your idea at that time, or pose an invitational question, one that's non-threatening but an invitational question or invite the engagement of others within the group. And so paraphrasing within the group is a foundational point for collaborative dialogue. You cannot have collaborative dialogue without the foundational skill and willingness to listen, to understand. 

36:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
This is incredible. I'm looking at time and realizing we don't have much more. I'm going to move to kind of close out. I could talk to you all day about this. This is incredible. I'm looking at time and realizing we don't have much more. I'm going to move to kind of close out. I could talk to you all day about this. This is fascinating. This is kind of. The next three questions are kind of a quick lightning round, if you will. One of them is just kind of recognizing that we talked about a lot of big things like big ideas and also a lot of practical things people could do in a meeting. Lot of practical things people could do in a meeting. Right, what's one thing that people can do once they kind of end the episode to put into practice right away? That might be one of those kind of foundational pieces to work up to. You know, the fourth and fifth mindset. 

36:41 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Yeah, talking to people who facilitate their peers. Here are five things you can do. I call them the elemental. Like little kids say elemental. If you want to improve your meetings, do elemental One is an audience connect to greet people and to thank people. 

37:05
Two have a clear purpose and have it visual. Write it out. Adults are visual um. Three, have um a public agenda. That means an agenda that everybody can see, not just a flat agenda, but one you can point away from yourself and point to have a public agenda. 

37:32
Have an inclusion strategy. We used to call those icebreakers, but if you want to make adults mad right away, tell them they're going to do an icebreaker, so just throw that out. But have an inclusion strategy of some kind that brings people's voices in the room, and it could be 60-second inclusion strategy. Name one thing you're celebrating or looking at today's purpose, what's one hope that you have, and then share that out. Having an inclusion strategy. Have visible working agreements strategy. Have visible working agreements. You know your meeting is not psychologically safe and people can't be brave without visible working agreements. So I want to throw that out as your element. Make sure you have those in place. Also, the presumption of positive intent, because it keeps you resourceful. Also, paraphrase, your butt off. Those would be the things that I would leave for a facilitator, and another one is lighten up and have fun. Lighten up, you want meetings where people are laughing and people are full of joy as they do the work. And so relationship first, rigor secondly. 

39:03 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love that. The next question is for fun. It could be work-related or it could be not work-related, but what is something you personally have been learning about lately? 

39:32 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
until I'm doing a retreat on that for leaders, because you cannot lead well if you think you're broken. And so how do you know that you are whole? It doesn't mean that you don't have things to learn, and yet you come at it from a space of I'm not broken, I'm whole, and what's there not to love about me? And so, and which means that I won't get depleted because I live from the overflow I fill up with love for myself and I spill over into the world with love for myself and I spill over into the world. And so I've been learning a lot about grace, self-love and wholeness. 

40:18 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That is beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Lastly, I think people are going to want to get your book, so we're going to link to that in the show notes and the blog post. Also, people are probably going to want to either follow you or connect with you, learn more about you. Where can they do that online? 

40:33 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Yeah, we are on LinkedIn. Tell them just to look for teachers as facilitators at LinkedIn, and I have a very, very astute group who just keeps that going for us and look for us and follow us that way too. Also, if they read the book, to give us a book review, also on Solution Tree, and on Amazon to give us a book review. Also. Our website is teachersasfacilitatorscom it's the name of the book TeachersAsFacilitatorscom and you can follow what we're doing on there too, and there are links to our social media on our website. 

41:26 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Amazing Carolyn, thank you so much for your time today. 

41:30 - Carolyn McKanders (Guest)
Thank you so much. It's my pleasure and I send out lots of love to all the educators all over the world. I have a friend who says anybody who's not us too bad for them. We are the world, we really are as educators and I want to leave people with you are enough. You really are enough. Thank you, Lindsay, Thank you. 

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