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This episode of the Time for Teachership podcast synthesizes some transformational ideas from recent guests on the podcast. In particular, we explore the big takeaways from conversations with Dr. Asao Inoue (episode 209) and Nicole Dimich (episode 210), who both challenge traditional educational norms by advocating for transformative assessment methods in their work.
We discuss strategies educators can use who are excited about making changes to their grading systems, but may not know exactly where to start. What? Dr. Inoue and Nicole Dimich share a vision of education that transcends traditional grading systems, embracing individuality and mastery as the cornerstones of learning. They dream of creating equitable classrooms that celebrate and nurture students' unique linguistic expressions, aiming to empower students and ensure they have the agency and voice to lead their learning journey. Here are three big ideas from our conversations with them: Bid Idea 1: Students should lead. On the podcast, we often discuss co-creating with students and developing shared partnerships with students, families, and educators.
Big Idea 2: Rethink grades and focus on feedback and self-assessment instead.
Big Idea 3: Focus on progress and mastery, not arbitrary grades.
Final Tip To embark on this transformative journey, educators can start by initiating conversations with students and families about their experiences with grading, building a foundation of understanding and collaboration for more equitable assessment practices. The other key thing for educators to do is prioritize time for these things that are important to them, despite the feeling that there’s never “enough” time. Prioritize reflection, student self-assessment, and utilize these equitable assessment practices. To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing my Dimension-Based Rubric Ideas template with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 212 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.
If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:
TRANSCRIPT
00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host) Welcome to episode 212 of the Time for Teachership podcast. I am so excited to synthesize some really powerful transformational ideas from the folks that I have talked to this month. So, specifically thinking about my conversation with Dr Asao Inouye and Nicole Diniz just just hanging on to some of the things that they have said and that I've learned from their writing, but also with talking to them Wow, just it's amazing. Okay, so let's dig in. I am my mind is still blown. I'm really excited to learn from all of you what your reactions to those conversations were. But here are some of kind of my big takeaways. And then I also want to name in doing a lot of equitable assessment, coaching and kind of transforming that system around grading and assessment with a lot of schools this year. I want to dig into some of the sticking points in that coaching and how some of these ideas really coach us through. And then I'll end with a freebie which is based on Dr Inouye's work where it's really about dimension-based grading. And I I'll end with a freebie which is based on Dr Inouye's work where it's really about dimension-based grading, and I'm trying to like take the feedback from teachers who have had excitement around it and also hesitation or questions around it and try to make it as practical as possible, while not kind of turning it into a standards-based rubric, because that kind of goes against everything that Dr Inouye has taught us. So here we go. Let's start with big idea number one, which is that students should lead right and I always talk about this right Co-creating with students and shared partnership with students and families and educators, of course, important. I just want to like elevate or dive a little bit deeper into what this means around equitable assessment. So Dr Inouye talked about how you know, as the teacher's role, this is kind of a aha moment for me, the teacher's role. He said it's not my job as a teacher, nor is it a peer's job to tell a writer what to do next. If you were listening to this episode in that moment, I was just like whoa that it was. If you were listening to this episode in that moment, I was just like whoa that it was really the opposite of what we have been told as educators is our job and what I have been coaching educators to do for years. So this was really one of those kind of rock me back on my heels moments of whoa okay, what does that even mean, like I like it, and what does that mean for practice, right? So certainly some questions around that and I've been thinking a lot about what that could mean. 02:28 Now also wanted to like, elaborate and share a little bit more. If you missed that episode, please listen to it, but if you, if you missed it, I just wanted to say what else is kind of resonating with me from his words there. So he says our job is to give our responses to their languaging. So he's a writing teacher, so he's talking about writing. However, I'm also thinking about, you know, oral discussion and languaging in a lot of different spaces. So give responses to their languaging and their job is to figure out what to do next. 02:57 So he talks about how only the writer knows their purpose and kind of what feels right to move forward. And I love his quote. He says I'd rather be another soul on the road of your language journey and you meet me and you can take what you take today and you continue to walk on the road, right? So I love this idea that, like he talked about, you know he doesn't want to wield all of that power as a teacher of like you're and also, like talked about how, you know, we're often kidding ourselves with, like the power that we think it was just going to be. Like this is going to change this child's languaging, and do we want to do that? No, so I think there's a lot of stuff here around. What does that mean when we kind of put that to students and say, hey, we're going to give you this feedback. I'm going to talk to you about my experience of reading your writing or listening to your speech or communication, in whatever form, and you're going to figure out what feels right next, right In all of your languaging brilliance and all of the kind of mentor texts which could be literal texts in the class that we read together, or it could be. You know how your mom talks or how your grandpa has this particular phrase that's really engaging right, whatever, it is right Languaging and all all of his pieces. 04:07 So I love that and I know that for some teachers, when I've I've kind of shared this learning that I've had from Dr Inouye, it was, you know well, yes, that seems like. I think someone said yesterday it would take a lot of coaching into right, like we're going to have to prepare students to engage in this way because school is not typically done in that way. It is typically you do what the teacher tells you to do, right? So, as with everything, when we talk about students really taking ownership of the learning, it is a shift from what they may be used to and it is a worthy shift and it's going to take some intention and some thought behind how to do that. So that will be a continued kind of thought for me, but I'll kind of share some other examples that may support that work. If you're thinking what can I do today? 04:52 So the other piece of this that I really love, this conversation with Dr Inouye, was dimension-based rubrics, and I put rubrics kind of in air quotes here. I know you can not see my fingers, but the idea of dimension-based rubrics being, you know, the standards. What does he say? He said standards serve institutions, expectations serve people. So it's not that we're eliminating all expectations, right, the expectations are one of high challenge, right? We want to promote as much learning as possible, and the standards and the way they are written is very much in what he talks about as a white racial habitus, like it is very white dominant. Right, it's white supremacy in action. So how do we get out of that. How do we embrace multiple forms of discourse and languaging and really put again that writer or the speaker, the presenter of information, the communicator of information, in the driver's seat. So he talks a lot about that reader writer interplay and this being really a more powerful form of feedback. 05:54 So certainly I had a teacher yesterday ask about you know well, for we were doing a professional learning session on multilingual learners and supporting them with discourse and the question was really but wouldn't that be more helpful for students to have kind of clarity of a checklist? Or, you know, it feels less clear to do dimension-based versus standard space, which often has, like, lots of language. So you get to play with that idea a little bit and the freebie for today certainly is like it is, in the form of a checklist, but it is one that is, I hope, in alignment with Dr Inouye's work, one that actually gets even more specific than any rubric could, because you're responding qualitatively, not just using the checklist as the peer feedback person or as the teacher giving feedback on the same kind of quote unquote rubric. But you are answering why, right? You are interrogating the why. Why did I respond in this way? Right? What was interesting, what was confusing to me, and why right? So there is a lot more specificity in the response and the learning comes in the response, like yes, we can front load some things, but also that interplay, that constant back and forth, that revision cycle that we often skip over. That is where the beauty is and that's where the specific nature of this process is right. 07:20 So this idea right Dr Inouye talks about this asking for readers' rich experience right, that's idea. Right. Dr Inouye talks about this, asking for readers' rich experience right, that's where we get the feedback and we don't really need to attach a grade to it. I mean, I think about Nicole Dimitch's work and she cites research about how when you actually do attach a grade to qualitative feedback, like it actually negates the possibility of that feedback advancing learning. Like that's just wild. As a ruth butler study from 1988, it was like when you take the grade away and it's just the qualitative comments, learning gains were 33 to 67. When you add the grade in zero, like it doesn't, it doesn't improve, that's just wild. So, um, anyways, this idea of feedback, no grade. We're not judging, we're not saying this is right or wrong, we're just giving our rich experience as a reader or the listener of speech or kind of the recipient of communication. 08:14 Now, when you are actually practicing this, you want to prompt students to ask, you know, like what did I read? What's important about this, what's confusing and why Right? So we want to kind of pull out, like what's in the author's mind and if you're thinking about a excuse me the reader's mind, and if you are thinking about a particular writer or speaker, like he says, let us know, like if I'm thinking about oh, I'm thinking about how George Orwell writes, well, that's a very specific person you have in mind and that's going to situate that feedback in a particular way, like don't leave anything in your brain. Kind of tell us all the things that you're thinking about and you're engaging with with that in your mind, and we're going to have a better sense of the reader's experience of the writing. Right, after all of that feedback, the author or communicator is going to share two to three comments from readers, and I think Dr Inouye talks about this in kind of like at the end of the course or kind of like a reflection over time. I actually wonder if you could do this in smaller scale, like after everyone on a particular assignment has given feedback you share, you know. Here's a comment that resonated with me, and his prompts are kind of what does that tell you about where you are, how well you're doing and where do you think you are really trying again to have that student leadership, that more reliance on themselves to reflect and self-assess where they are, and not rely on the teacher to tell them how they're doing. That just breaks my heart. 09:33 Every time a student would ask, like, what their grade is or how they're doing, and I'm just like. I want you to have a sense of your learning. I want you to recognize I'm learning a lot. I'm not learning a lot, I could be learning more. I have you know, whatever it is like. That's tough, and so what Dr Inouye does is he asks students to write this and then he responds and shares his noticings as well, not to counteract or say that the students' reflections are wrong, but just to say like hey, we're in conversation, and this is what I'm noticing as well, and I mean Nicole Dimich and Dr Inouye. 10:09 They both talk about how a grade from a teacher does not really tell you much about learning. Right, it does not tell you much, and in Nicole's book she actually has a breakdown of like. Here's a I don't know what it was like a 79, right, and that's your grade. And what does that communicate right? And if you're a student, that's like oh, no. And if you're a student who has been struggling, that's like oh, yay, it doesn't tell you anything with learning right. But when you break it down and say, hey, there were four skills we were assessing here, you did fantastic on three of them, you just like knocked it out of the park. And this one, you know we were struggling a bit, so we need a little bit more support here. That now has so much clarity. I mean it's affirming that like wow, I can do these things really well. And there's this thing that I need to grow in. Great Like, I want to grow in that thing. Like let's figure out my next step. Total out, Total difference in communication. 11:02 So this other kind of big aha moment for me was in learning from, actually in Cole's book, but formative until it's summative. Is this concept of like we can give the same assessment to all bunch of students and for some students it counts as formative and for some students it counts as summative. This blew my mind. So she was basically saying you know, it counts for a grade if you show mastery. Right, it counts if you show mastery, because she talked about how a lot of people will be like, or students right will be like well, does this count? Or how many points is this assignment right and that's going to determine if they do it or not. We'll get back to that in just a moment. That is a common concern around grades and motivation. But she's talking about you know it counts if you show mastery. So how cool to be like, great you can. You've learned it, you can do the thing, demonstrate that. We put it in the grade book. Amazing, you are rewarded for what you know, right? 11:49 I think she talks about how Tom Strimmer's work, or often talks about giving credit for what you know and the averages actually hurt, that we average everything together into a number. I think her big phrase is moving from quantities to qualities. Right, we wanna know the qualities of the student work. We wanna emphasize the quality and we wanna name specific qualities. We don't need the quantities Like. The numbers actually don't help us, right? So I think that is such a powerful idea for me, and she gives in the book some examples of how logistically that would work. But I just love the concept of everyone can do this assessment and when you're good at it, when you have demonstrated proficiency in that skill, you're good. It goes in the grade book, which is a reward for you and it is formative and therefore, depending on how you do, your grading doesn't count, or counts for much less, because you're still learning and that's okay. So we're going to try again on the same skill and the next time right, and then if you demonstrate proficiency, then it will be summative for you. 12:46 So it's really trying to work within this system k-12 that we have of needing to do grades and having to report grades most often and still trying to anchor in the learning right. We're trying to like her practical sense of like we're working in the system and like here's what we're going to do to try to anchor in learning. And I think what is cool is both Dr Inouye and Nicole Dimich are talking about this idea of anchoring in the learning and grades are harmful until we try to get away from them. Yet both of them recognize we're in the system where, like you know, as a college writing professor or coaching K-12 folks, like we have to do this thing and so how do we get there. Dr Inouye's is very much labor-based grading and in kind of getting at that like elimination of grades and the feedback. And Nicole has this really cool idea around like the formative summative piece, along with other ideas which we're gonna get to in just a moment, but I just want to name that was really cool Formative until it's summative. 13:46 So here's some things that coaching has taught me are sticking points with educators and leaders and kind of like all the pieces that come up. And I call them sticking points because sometimes we get so kind of like all the pieces that come up. And I call them sticking points because sometimes we get so kind of in the weeds with some of these pieces that it actually halts conversation and further learning or like inquiring about the possible not to fault anyone asking these important questions, but this is just kind of where I've seen us be held up in the process of learning and growing and trying some things out. We don't like often move to the piloting phase, probably as a result of my like figuring out my coaching practice, but also that like this, this feels like it's really a sticking point for people that they really need to have a conversation about all of their feelings and thoughts on this, which is also understandable. So grades and motivation are probably the biggest one. Now, anecdotally, every conversation I've been in that's part of this will say if we open it up to like the personal share. Actually, I totally agree. 14:51 Grades are stressful for all of us. We have negative grading memories. Dr Inouye talks about inviting students to share theirs, and theirs are often negative and they're not helpful. Like, on the whole, most teachers will say actually, yeah, if we could just do without grades, like that could work. However, we end up landing in this place, that's like. But we need to like maintain these systems that actually presuppose that students are motivated by grades, even though we know that that probably isn't true, right, and so we're kind of like trying to break out of that. So here's what Nicole says about this Grades may motivate students who are achievement driven, but like just to get points, not to actually learn things, which is a critical distinction. And she says right, remember, grades are actually just communication. They're not actually learning. To counteract that idea that averages hurt, right, they don't give credit for what they know, according to Tom Schimmer. Right that we might just look at or grade or weight, however you do your grade calculations, the most recent demonstration of proficiency of these skills, the frequent and consistent evidence of learning like that. The most recent, frequent and consistent is what Nicole says should be right the grade that we can lean into, right, because that is evidence of the learning A lot of people have told me. 16:07 You know, my students come in far below grade level and I want to kind of measure their growth and evaluate their growth versus, like, having this one particular grade level standard. And so there's this interesting nuance here, right Of like, yes, we are going to celebrate all of that growth. And then we also have these things that are like quote, unquote, the standard right. We also have things, I will say, like standardized testing. I feel like no one loves that also are supposed to function in that way. Right, but certainly within our classes I think we can have those high expectations like push students as far as they can go, coach students along as far as they can go, right In a particular year, and like, yeah, we want to really make sure that everyone is growing, including that a student who is just coasting Right. We want everyone to grow. So the other piece is that she talks out. This is really important, separating out and really shifting from compliance and completion to evidence of learning. 17:01 This is such a huge sticking point. Often the way that we were graded as kids and the way that we were taught to grade, perhaps in teacher school, is often about compliance or completion right. Due to a lot of factors, many teachers give like a check, check plus, like you did it. Great that grade's going in because it takes less time, because we're overwhelmed, because we've been taught to do all of these assessments, because we're obsessed with these HQIMs or high quality instructional materials that have all these assessments and, to be honest, I think just it's too much, it's so much it's exhausting the teachers. Teachers can't give feedback and one of the brilliant things that Nicole said in our conversation I was like when teachers ask how many assessments should I give, she says only as many as you can provide feedback on. So if you are giving five assignments a week and you can't give feedback on all of them, stop giving five assignments a week, right, let's sit with the thing that we can get feedback on and then we cycle it into revision and that right, we work with it, we make the feedback matter, right. So that is a complete shift and there are a lot of structural pieces at play that are going to make that challenging. Right, that is going to be challenging if your administrator is saying, like you have to do these things, you have to do these things. So, administrators, listening, work with your teachers to figure out what is priority, what are the most important things? How do we do less in terms of just the number of assignments or the length of assignments? Sometimes those lengths are so arbitrary. How do we assess the skill fewer times but in a way that enables us to provide more feedback and opportunities and time for revision? Right, so much of this is a priority scheme. 18:49 One of the things that Nicole says around this idea from like shifting from compliance and completion to evidence of learning is is the sticking point of accountability, right? So she's like, really, what we want to do is we want to make sure we're assessing and giving feedback on evidence of learning, not just the compliance and completion, although we could separate that out and give that separate feedback of like hey, like love all the work you're doing and you turned all of these assignments in late, so that's like a separate thing, right? Maybe that's an executive functioning thing, maybe that is just like like, organize your schedule better, like, I guess, all those things. But she's saying we need to explore this idea of accountability, which is often driving this compliance and completion thing, right? So what are we holding kids accountable to? Are we holding them accountable to getting their work done or to getting to a higher quality of work? Right, and I think we'd all argue the latter, right. We want them to get to a higher quality of work and often less fewer assignments, right, that's better, that's going to get us there and it's going to be less stressful for educators too. There's so much we have to do. Let's just work. What is the work? Smarter, not harder, right? 19:56 Ok, one specific strategy that she names, too, because, yes, we still have to do grades. We have to put something in the grade book that is often a requirement for most of us, and we can delay the grades. So research has suggested that this can be helpful. Where we actually just provide the qualitative feedback. We don't have the grade on it. We require revision, right? Or, in Dr Inouye's case, we give that feedback, we explain the reader's rich experience, the writer or speaker, they decide what to do next, they revise and then we can grade right, so we have to require a round of revision first. I really like that strategy. I feel again like that's practical. It gets at both pieces of this. 20:40 Now, another sticking point for coaching is how to shift, like how do we do the thing? So we're on board with this idea. We like the idea of equitable assessment, but we're a little nervous about family responses, about the fact that our students are going to go to college and how our college admission is going to look at this process of, maybe competency-based assessments, feedback like what is all of this going to look like in the broader scheme of things, and how do we, like you know, communicate clearly with families? And so the response, as per usual, is to partner with students and families, and I love that. Dr Inouye talked about this, right? So he is talking about framing, where he's like all right, I ask students about one experience with grading and I imagine you could do this families as well One experience with grading option to share out, and then inevitably, it will be negative. 21:30 Many of you'll co-create with the group pattern recognition of, like what are we noticing about grades and their impact on us, right? Nicole asks a similar question what is it like to be you in school? Right, let's center in lived experiences of students and families as students. Right, and then we can jump to the research. So Dr Inouye talks about how we would want to talk about the history of grading and the harm done. Right, just a few things. We don't need to inundate them, right? They're not going to get like a dissertation done in this piece, like exposure to the reality that harm is done by grading. Right Again, families, students, educators we're doing this work together and then, because we're on the learning journey together, we can all kind of co-create the assessment policy or those negotiations. Now, this is going to take a longer time. I know time always feels like it's too short, but this is where you're going to get that kind of like co-creation, quote, unquote, buy-in, whatever that is Like you'll get less critical feedback when we're doing it together and we've done the learning together. So I really like this. 22:33 And one more quick thing, just my own two thoughts here. It is only college and I guess, if you're like a younger teacher, like you know, maybe the high school, but maybe not, because high schools a lot of them are competency-based now that really grade in this particular way. So if we're like, oh, but you got to prepare the high school kids for college. So we have to do this thing in this way because college is going to do it in this way. Well, one, some colleges don't, but many do, yep. 22:59 And it's not really life is not really like a timed assessment or one grade and you're done and you never get to fix anything again. Like that's not really how life works, anything at least that I have worked on in my work. Like I have an opportunity to try it, to get feedback to make it better, to constantly take in the cycle of feedback and learning and revision Constantly. I can ask colleagues for support, I can ask for peer feedback, I can learn something new, I can decide what my next steps are. Like that is life. That is like most jobs, right. 23:34 And the other piece of this is so back to that point. It's really just college that we're prepping them for, and not even all colleges. I do think colleges will get behind this idea of more equitable assessment. It just might be a little delayed, but I don't think that kids are going to be punished for this and I recognize that, like we want to make sure kids are not going to be punished for this. So the other piece is like if we recognize and the research does show that this way of traditional grading is harmful, like is that a good enough reason to keep doing it? Is that a good enough reason to keep doing it? I'm going to leave you with that for a moment. 24:14 So other sticking points here Two left One what would dimension-based rubrics look like? I won't talk about this too much because I'm going to attach a freebie from what kind of what my brain has put together really heavily, heavily based on Dr Asao Inoue's work. I basically took his dimension-based rubric example that he has shared publicly and then just adjusted it a little bit to build in some elaboration and reflection questions. I kind of made a version for, like, the student and then the version for the student I should say, the writer or the speaker, right and then I made a version for the reader or listener the reader or listener. So you can check that out. That's going to be posted on the blog post for today's episode. So lindsaybethlyonscom slash blog, slash 212. 25:03 Okay, so then the next thing is coaching students to be able to self-assess and determine their next step. Like that totally takes coaching in too. That is going to take some time, and so some thoughts here really reflective of some of the themes we've talked about today. Make time for it. Again, we don't have time. We don't have enough time ever and it's a priorities game, so we all have like a finite amount of time. Some certainly have more time for, for example, history classes than others. However, we have time and it's a priorities game. So is it important enough that we want to carve out some time for peer reviews, for that sharing of the reader's rich experience, and for students to self-reflect and make decisions about what their next step will be? And then time to revise, because I really want to honor that like yes, some people assign homework. 25:57 I typically have not been one of those people. I want to try to make sure that my students can do all of the work within the school day. So giving that self-reflection time, building in their revision time. This could look like just independent writing time. This could look like conferences with me. This could be an exchanged, you know, journal writing or something where the students are kind of reflecting asynchronously with me or with peers or just themselves. So again, I think, even if you have a designated curriculum, can you work with an instructional coach or leader to figure out what are the assignments that are most important, prioritize those. 26:32 And I mean maybe an unpopular opinion here, but like skill-wise, hypothetically, and we're going to the extreme here. Just for this example, if I had a student that revised one piece of writing all year and it was like fantastic by the end of the year, but they just kept working on it, kept working on it, I wouldn't need skill-wise them to do any other writing, right, because this is kind of like their masterpiece. Think about like novels People write and just revise and revise and they produce one book, sometimes every like three years, right? So if someone is piecing together like revising, revising, doing all this cool stuff around one text, I think that's fine. Now the piece that becomes a complicated factor that sometimes we conflate is like that's the skill of writing versus like the content that we need to assess. But we can assess content in different ways. We can assess it verbally, we can assess it in like more project-based things. If you need them to write an essay, do you need them to write 10 essays? I would argue no. You might need them to express the content from other units in different ways, but if they're just perfecting one essay over the course of a year and it is fantastic at the end. Great, I'm going to tell you that you have got like, as long as they're doing all the work, you have got all these writing skills. 27:40 Amazing, because time is not like a skill. I'm not assessing someone and I don't know any standard other than like the standardized testing container that requires students to do things fast. And again, in life and jobs you don't really need to do things fast sometimes, but often, particularly in like professional capacities, professional like I don't know what the word is but like when you have to like put together writing I guess I don't know what, I don't know what that word writing based careers Sorry for my lack of vocabulary. There you will have the time to work on it, to get feedback, to revise. It doesn't need to be this timed thing where you need to get some like really thoughtful piece of writing together in like 30 minutes, or else right writing together in like 30 minutes or else right. 28:35 The last piece I want to name is your peer reviews, your kind of way of inviting student reflection. We want to make time for those and certainly you can just hand students kind of paper and the students writing and then they can like go through and write. I've also known students to be sometimes having an easier time verbally. So I've done peer reviews in kind of a hybrid writing reading and kind of doing it with a group. So that is something that you could also do. My process has been like similar to like a dissertation committee. 29:03 You listen to a presentation or you read a piece of writing, you can ask some clarifying questions and the author can respond, and then really you as a team of like three to four students are completing kind of the dimension-based rubric or whatever the feedback form is. Use a consensus protocol if you do need to assign a grade Ideally you don't, but if you do and then reviewers can, orally and in writing, share the why, right. So again to Dr Inouye's points. We are going to share, like the why. We're going to interrogate the reasoning behind our rich experience of reading the text or listening to the expression verbally. Okay. So with all of that, that was a long solo show. Thank you for listening, excited to hear how you might implement this like equitable assessment piece pieces in your communities. And once again, the blog post for this episode, along with that freebie with dimension based rubric ideas, is at the blog post lindsaybethlionscom slash blog slash 212.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist civics-based curricula, discussion opportunities, and equitable policies that challenge, affirm, and inspire all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Lindsay believes all students deserve literacy, criticality, and leadership skills. Archives
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