210. "It Counts if You Show Mastery" & Other Transformative Assessment Ideas with Nicole Dimich

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In this episode, we speak with author and educator, Nicole Dimich, about the role of assessment and grading in education. 

She draws from insights in the second edition of her book, Design in Five, to encourage educators to shift how they view assessments. By focusing on students’ strengths and potential, we can create a culture of possibility where students are learning and growing according to their strengths. 


The Big Dream 

Nicole's big dream for education is to create a culture of possibility where students see themselves in terms of strengths and potential rather than deficits. 

She envisions a system where educators partner with students, allowing them to play an active role in their learning journey. Nicole's vision is rooted in her personal experiences, emphasizing the power of recognizing and nurturing potential in students.


Mindset Shifts Required

To realize this vision, educators must shift from quantity to quality. This moves us away from a system based on points and categories, and instead focuses on learning outcomes. Ultimately, we want to create an environment where students are partners in their learning and educators are empowered to feel joy, love, and confidence in what they do. 

Practically, this means connecting grades to descriptions of learning—the actual learning outcomes you want students to reach. This helps all students know where they are, what they’re doing well, and where they have an opportunity to grow. 

Action Steps  

As educators make the “quantity to quality” mindset shift, they can focus on taking these action steps: 

Step 1: Educators can move away from the idea of compliance and completion and embrace evidence of learning. Grades should be about communication, where students are at a point in time. Delaying grades and offering feedback instead are two ways to take the focus off of numbers and points.   

Step 2: Hold students accountable to a higher quality of work. It’s not just about getting work done, but showing the evidence of learning. This means going deeper and revising work to show learning over time. 

Step 3: Understand that formative and summative assessments are not methods, they’re about levels of understanding. It’s not just about whether something “counts” to the end grade, but showing mastery in their learning. 

Step 4: Educators can partner with students to co-create learning experiences that emphasize their strengths and potential, fostering a culture of possibility.


Challenges?

One of the challenges educators face is the complex relationship between grades, motivation, and accountability. Traditional grading practices often overshadow feedback, leading students to prioritize scores over actual learning. High-achieving students may also be reluctant to take risks, resulting in minimal learning gains. 

Additionally, educators struggle with turnaround time for providing meaningful feedback and aligning assessments with learning objectives.

One Step to Get Started 

The first step an educator can take is to start with just one unit or time frame and decide what they want kids to learn. Take whatever way you’re scoring and share it with students in a way that breaks down the learning, shifting from quantity to quality.

Stay Connected

You can find this week’s guest on LinkedIn or X at @NicoleDimich.

To help you implement today’s takeaways, I’m sharing Nicole’s Assessment Practices White Paper with you for free. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 210 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below.

Quotes: 

• 1:55 “I think that’s the gift educators give young people—when you see possibility and help cultivate that strength.”
• 8:53 “Oftentimes, kids would rather do more assignments, do more things, and get more points rather than go deeper—and not because they don’t want quality work, but this is how the system has worked. So that shift from quantity to quality is a game changer.”
• 21:05 “When kids say, ‘Does this count?’ Then we say, ‘It counts if you show mastery.’ It’s not about a method, it’s about a level of understanding.”

​If you enjoyed this episode, check out my YouTube channel where you can learn about more tips and resources like this one below:

TRANSCRIPT

00:02 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Nicole, welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 

00:05 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. 

00:08 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I'm so excited I was just telling you I've been talking about this book to so many people so your second edition of Design in 5 is out. It is brilliant, and that's what's on my mind right now as we enter the conversation. Is there anything that you want the audience to know, either about you or to kind of keep in mind as we have that conversation today? 

00:27 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Oh, yes, well, I guess the biggest thing for me is just this idea of creating a culture of possibility for young people and using assessments in ways that helps young people see themselves in possibility and see themselves in strength and not always deficit. So so much of the grounding of design and five, the assessment design the technical part, as well as the way we use it as a process is with in the service of like creating space where students can really grow in deep ways. 

00:59 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
That definitely feels in line with the next question I was going to ask you so very, very freedom, dreaming of you and I know I always try to surface Dr Bettina Love's quote about freedom dreams, dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, which I love. So I don't know if you want to name or elaborate on that big dream that you hold for education. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that beautiful quote as well, you know. 

01:22 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
I think it goes back to that sense of possibility. I mean, I was the little girl in Northwestern, northwestern, minnesota, where in kindergarten, first grade, I was the. The only way I got to school was because the bus driver got off the bus, grabbed my hand, got me on the bus and I was the last stop, so he like walked me into into school and it was a teacher in sixth grade who who looked at me and said, nicole, I think you've got something, I think you've got some leadership in you and like recognize possibility in me before I recognized it in myself. And so I think that's the gift that educators and others give young people and each other, like when you see possibility and you help cultivate that strength. So, and I think I also have a deep passion for partnering with students to say what is it like to be in school. So it's not just about the adults designing a system that really has not really worked for a lot of students, and even students who it's worked for potentially may or may not have transferable skills that are like OK, now it's not just a hoop to jump through. It's this meaningful experience that I'm learning really interesting things and I'm learning skills that are going to help me decide where I want to go and be, you know, really really feeling happy, successful, proud and confident. And so I think I have that dream of creating school where students are partners in their learning and that we empower educators to feel joy and love and confidence in how they are able to engage and facilitate and foster learning for students. 

02:58
So my pathway has been in lots of different spaces and assessment happens to be the central role and how I've really tried to figure out and tried to like facilitate and learn and then create space where assessment is about building relationships and assessment is about information and not so much evaluation, where we start to use it as a process. 

03:20
That's part of a culture of learning and so and I think there's really like practical ways we can do that so teachers workflow is doable, feasible, possible and and feels really like like what's what's happening is working and I can sustain it. 

03:38
And then, of course, having students just feel confident and feel and I think for me I was a pretty compliant kid, so I you know I was getting seen in my possibility a lot, but I also noticed that students who maybe didn't see school in terms of the process, didn't want to play the game or didn't see it as possible, were not getting seen in possibility. We're often getting seen in deficit, and so part of my journey has been to create space and I think we can do really innovative things in education. And if we don't transform, assessment and grading, all of that can increase pressure and stress and actually almost not necessarily negate, but also not have some of those innovative practices really realized in the potential that they have. So I think assessment and grading, but assessment in particular, sits at the center of us being able to create some of these big changes that will also result in big learning and big confidence for students. 

04:34 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love so much of that. I just I love the partnering with students. I love that you know you're kind of situating also in your own personal experience of people who found the possibility in you. I love that you know we're kind of thinking about shifting our understanding of our roles as educators in some ways right when we're thinking about partnering with students. It's not maybe how we were taught, right, but like that often that is like the shift we need to make to be able to do this. 

04:59
Well, your question of what is it like to kind of be you in school or experience school is brilliant and I love just the simplicity of it and just the importance and weight of it. So all the things I'm really excited about. And I want to ask you this next question around shifts, because I think you had so many things in this book that I read it and I was like that is totally blowing my mind and shifted everything I've thought about. And I'm often in conversations about equitable assessment and so I was like whoa, this is like an extra mindset shift that is so cool. And so I'm curious to know what is like the big one or one of the big ones that you've seen in terms of a teacher, like had this way of thinking about assessment, had this like nugget of information or thought change? And then was like oh, this has unlocked so many things for me. Is there one that sticks out for you? 

05:48 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Yeah, well, and maybe two. I'll try to just keep it to one. They kind of bleed into one another. But one of the pieces that, as at right the teeth like a classroom piece, that so has kind of resonated is this shift from quantity to quality. So, as students are asking questions like how much is this worth? They're making decisions about how much effort they're going to put into something, by how many points it's worth, or how big it is, and so, or even we as educators will sometimes say well, this is worth this many points, so pay attention to it. So even we fall into that quantitative language. Or we categorize kids the high kids, the gifted kids, the low kids, and we it's these labels that are quantities of like. Okay, this is where you're at. 

06:35
And so when we so that shift to quality, when you take, I think one of the examples I use frequently that seems to resonate is let's take 67%. Let's say you get an assessment back and it's 67%. When you ask students, what does that mean? They often are like I don't know. Some kids are like I passed, they're so relieved and now they're done, and other students are like I failed, I'm stupid, and so why try next? And so I think, noticing the impact of those quantities on students, it really it really makes an educator's job much more difficult to help students engage when we, when they don't feel like anything they're going to do is going to make a difference, that it's going to help them learn more or even help their grade go up. So even that that in itself. So then, when we take 67% and we break it down by specific learning descriptions, so the 67% is okay. You know two of these things you know how to organize data, you know how to calculate and you need to work on interpreting data. That's the area you are struggling with. So, when people have shifted from quantity to quality, even like a rubric score of two, or if people are doing a standards-based reporting, a two can, if it's not connected to descriptions of learning, can be just as damaging as a quantitative or just as confusing for students, or they tie that quantity to their self-worth. So then, oh, this is about me instead of about my learning and what I know and what I still need to work on. 

08:06
And so that shift from quantity to quality is how do we share information around assessment so students understand what that 67% means, or understand what that two means and they're reflecting on each assessment that says okay, this means I understand these pieces and this is what I need to work on. And I think kids who do well over time like when kids do well over time and they make a mistake my experience is some students just get so freaked out or so stressed because they don't attach that mistake as an opportunity to grow. They think it's all about them and they'll do anything for points. So it appears that they're motivated by grades, but it really isn't about learning. Because you ask then, how will students revise their work? Are they interested in revising their work? Well, oftentimes kids would rather do more assignments, do more things, get more points than go deeper, and not because they don't want quality work. 

08:59
But this is just how the system has worked. 

09:02
So that shift from quantity to quality has been a game changer and, like practically just even in the last, we just, like you know, just take an assessment and put a cover page on it and break down, even if there's nothing initially attached. There's been some really not necessarily easy moves, but simple moves of just like take one assessment that you already have and break it down by learning and then see how students engage with it differently. I mean, and the cool part is for me is that when we start to do some of that, it also really eases the workflow for teachers, because now, if you know, this is what students need to work on and it's not just about, oh, they got a bad score or they got this score, so this means they need this. It's really about what is the learning they need to work on. So that's that quantity to quality shift is kind of foundational to changing from assessment being just about a grade or stop everything in assessment and really more feedback. That's helping us understand strengths and next steps. 

10:05 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love that, and one of the things that you were kind of mentioning is like this idea of motivation, and so that's been such a huge piece of the conversation, right, I was just saying that. You know, last night I was in a conversation with teachers who are like we collectively agree in this virtual room that grades are not motivating and our policies are still. The things we fall back on are still that grades are motivating. So like how do we kind of parse apart that stuff and I know you cite research in the book around this and like what grades can do or not do to learning, and so yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts around like this idea that is kind of stuck in our brain sometimes that grades are motivating when actually maybe not. 

10:44 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Yes, well, and ironically that leads to another shift in the book from really this idea of compliance and completion to this idea of evidence of learning. Because I think we have to and I've been influenced by so many great thinkers around grading Maria Ruiz Primo and Tom Guskey and James and I'm blanking get kids to do things, but as a way to say, this is where your proficiency is at this moment in time, and because it's very hard to get kids to do work when they don't feel compelled to do it. I mean, I'm seeing lots more need for students to see relevance in things, and so I think that notion of relevance is important. So, positioning grades as communication and then thinking about because, if we think about this, if we give kids I think it's Doug Reeves who talks about this experiment he says, okay, for all the students you gave zeros to one unit. If our theory is, if I give them a zero, it will motivate them to get more work done, let's track the students who got zeros, the next unit and the next unit, and if that list changed, then maybe it's working. But if that list stays the same, then we have to figure out something different, because just giving kids zeros isn't going to work. So I think there's like some I always tell people, you know, just pilot some things like create some space, and I you talked about this one study and there's some, of course, some challenges around the study itself, but essentially what happens is when you asked when you put a grade and I think this anecdotally, teachers tell me this all the time you put a grade on something and you put feedback. I mean, I was an English teacher, I used to put books on kids' papers and my deep insights they were not always taking me up on them and they were on the floor or in the trash. 

12:55
And it turns out like when you put a grade in a comment on, oftentimes students look at the grade and then they're not even looking at the comments. They'll look at their peer and say what did you get? And they're comparing numbers instead of comparing their work to a set of qualities and so delaying grades so that students pay attention to feedback and then requiring revision to kind of get through this idea. So I guess there's the focus of separating motivation from do grades motivate? They motivate some students who are really achievement driven, but they're motivating students to get more points, not to necessarily to create more quality work. So I think there's part of that. So really helping position grades as purpose. The other thing is is, or as communication of learning, and I think the other thing is we have this really this hard issue of combining everything together and averaging it and and then we don't really understand what the grade means. So a grade of C without any understanding of what goes into that can mean a myriad of things like that. Kids and kids did really well. They show evidence of academic achievement, but they had enough no homework in, and so we don't give feedback around behaviors versus, you know, academic achievement. But they handed no homework in, and so we don't give feedback around behaviors versus academic achievement. 

14:13
My son, when he was sophomore that was during COVID and he stopped doing anything and he didn't really love me asking if I could help. But he took an American Sign Language class and it was midterm and the teacher gave, of course, had to do an interview and he showed up for the Zoom, thank goodness. And at the end of the Zoom call she said Reese, you know everything you need to know. That's most essential in American Sign Language. So I'm going to exempt you from all of those other little assignments, because I have evidence that you understand. And he looked at me and he said Mom, I think I'm going to take ASL 2. I have evidence that you understand. And he looked at me and he said mom, I think I'm going to take ASL 2. And he took ASL 3 and ASL 4. And I think that teacher was so brilliant because in that moment she shifted from a focus on chasing him for getting work done, compliance and completion to really looking at evidence of learning, which saved her a ton of energy as well, because she's looking at I don't have to try to chase kids to get all these points in. Now I can look at okay, what do I have? 

15:15
And then there are some folks who'll say, well, where's the accountability? And I will say, like, was I not annoyed that he was not doing some of those things? Yes, and he did not have to do them to show mastery of the essentials. So I think we really need to explore not only motivation but accountability. What are we holding kids accountable to? Getting work done or getting to a higher quality of work? And so, yes, does Reese need feedback on the fact that there are times he's going to have to do something, some things that he doesn't want to do. But that's different feedback than the grade. So I think we have to really explore what do we talk about when we talk about accountability and how do we hold kids accountable and how do we reduce teachers stress of always trying to chase kids to get work done and really look more at evidence of learning and then our grades can really reflect learning at any given moment in time. And I think I mean that's the other issue. Of course, with all this is certainly things about if kids get it faster, do they get a better grade? There's, like some, there's lots of issues with some of those pieces that have to be explored in terms of what kind of create, what kind of culture do we want to create? But yeah, I think there's like lots of different places, but that idea of grading, of motivation, is super important. 

16:35
And then Tom Schimmer, my colleague also. He talks about giving kids credit for what they know. And so if they and I think that's where averaging becomes a really detrimental practice because if we are holding kids accountable to their initial tries at things and then we average the next try, and then we're not giving kids credit for what they know, and this is where kids will say how much is this worth? Oh, it's only going to be worth 10 percent. More than I'm not going to do it or I'm not going to put as much effort into it. More then I'm not going to do it or I'm not going to put as much effort into it. So we actually like, don't give ourselves credit as teachers. My colleague, cassie, used to say that, as we, when we inspire growth if we don't capture the most recent, the most frequent and the most consistent evidence in terms of kids learning. 

17:23 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
So yes, wow, there's so much good stuff. I love that you're weaving in like tools and mindset things and just all of this. I so love it and it's making me think actually about like the A students who actually are doing school quite well and work, you know, apparently like it seems as if they are doing well in the system, but they are so hesitant to take risks, they are so hesitant to push the boundaries of what they could do, that their learning gains each year is so small that it's like this is also harmful to them. Yes, 100%. 

17:59 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
In fact, I'm so glad you brought that up, because one of the things that I'm like you know what? Let's just take one unit and for one unit, don't grade a couple of the assignments and then see what happens. And I think people will say, well, if I don't grade it, they won't do it. And I'll say, yeah, if you don't grade it and you don't do anything with it, they absolutely won't do it. But if you don't grade it, and the next day you come in and you're like, okay, here's four ways you solve this problem. Or here's two examples of here's two examples of theme or claims, and okay, which one is yours? Okay, here we go. Let's let's revise. And if kids haven't done it, their consequence for not doing it is sitting down and doing it, so it holds us accountable to that kind of thing. Now, easier to say than do, but just the, the whole, like really thinking differently about our, our workflow is important and just like what we're choosing to do. 

18:53 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
So, yes, I love that. I mean one of the other things I we were just talking a lot about, like big, big kind of shifts and thoughts and and one of the things that is probably the most memorable from your book for me was this idea that it's an assignment can be formative and summative for different students like the same assignment. Do you mind talking through that idea, because I bet that will blow people's minds. 

19:16 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
No, I love it. We've been having so much fun talking about this because so many people are setting policies around. Formative is less percentage of the grade than summative and the theory is great, but the unintended consequences are that kids think that formative doesn't count as much, so they'll choose not to do some of the things because they again are thinking in terms of quantities. So we're messing with this notion of assessment and these are also my colleagues, tom and Cassie messing with this notion of formative. And summative is verb and action, not method. So no one can give anybody a formative assessment. There's, it's, it's has to be used by the teacher to reflect on what instruction worked, who understood, what were the misconceptions, and then it has to be used by students to say, okay, this means I know this, but this is my next step, so, so formative assessment has to be used in that way. Ok, this means I know this, but this is my next step, so, so formative assessment has to be used in that way. So then fast forward to your like, like your. That moment there is OK, so anything can be formative or summative, and teachers do this all the time if they give what they intended to be a summative. End of unit assessment and students don't do well, in that moment we're like, oh well, well, whoa, we've got to do another lesson, another instruction, a reteach and another opportunity. And in that same vein, if in a formative assessment, if, if, if we instead think about this when there's a quiz or there's some kind of assessment for the kids who show mastery, it is summative, it's evidence that helps us understand a level of proficiency. For students who don't show mastery on that assessment, it's formative because they're going to get some feedback and try again. And so if we remove these categories of formative and summative, we remove that. 

21:04
Like when kids say, does this count? Then we say, okay, it's counts if you show mastery. And again, then it's not about, it's not about a method, it's about a level of understanding, and that motivates kids to say, oh, the only way I can be done with this at the most rudimentary thing is if I show mastery, so I'm only going to get a grade when I show mastery. And when and when we do that, that alleviates the teacher's workflow too, because they're not scoring it two times. Or, and reassessment now isn't about oh, another like stop everything, have to figure this out. 

21:37
It's like, okay, more instruction and then, and then okay, when, when does it count? It counts when you show mastery, so you know whether you're using points or standards-based scoring. I mean, it works in both ways. But if we just think about it in terms of, yeah, mastery or levels of proficiency, that really helps kids who I don't know, I'm sure and I've experienced this too like kids who settle for so much less than what they can really do because it's enough for them and so on the most essential things. We're not going to do this on everything right. We're going to do this on essential skills and essential learning we want kids to have so that the workflow works. But for kids who settle when they don't get a grade, then it's like they're not going to settle for nothing, so it also pushes them to take that next level, that next step. 

22:22 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love that language. I just wrote that down so right. Like the idea like it counts if you show mastery is such a wonderful way to kind of weave in the system of like we're working within this idea that we do have to input a grade and like this is how you still focus on the learning within that system. I feel like it's such a tough tension to kind of weave and I think that that phrase hits it. So teachers should write that down Nice. 

22:48 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
I'm wondering about oh, go ahead. Well, the only other thing I was going to say is, like people often ask me, how many formative assessments should we do, and if they're in collaboration sometimes they're using common formative or collaborative formative and I'll say only as many as you can respond to, Because that other shift of being over-tested and moving to balanced and informed is that sometimes we're collecting so much assessment information I did the formative assessment but I don't have time to respond. Well then, it's no longer formative. So I think that notion of the use of it as well as like that, helps teachers workflow and make sure that kids are getting targeted feedback that they can interpret and respond to. 

23:30 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
For sure, I know. I think about all of the people who have said like you know, there's like stacks of essays on my desk from like a month ago and it's like well, was that like maybe we shouldn't have given that assessment? 

23:40 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Right, all of that. 

23:41 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Not helping anyone, including you. 

23:43 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
It's just adding to the pile. 

23:47 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I'm curious to know. We've talked through many challenges that teachers kind of grapple with around assessment. Is there any that we've missed, like another challenge that you've encountered teachers facing or kind of grappling with, and what might any advice around that challenge be for folks who are struggling with that challenge? 

24:07 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Yeah, well, I think turnaround time to get kids feedback and information from the assessments is one and this is on a continuum, I would say in terms of making sure that the assessment design matches the learning to the cognitive assessment, to where people think students can achieve, and sometimes that's in direct alignment, but sometimes that's way below where we know that they can be. And it's all in good intentions. We don't want kids to struggle too much, but oftentimes that doesn't then push kids to really learn in deep and sustainable, transferable ways, sustainable, transferable ways, and so a lot of, I think, the idea around how do we design assessments that are really meaningful, engaging, but also really at grade level and allow kids to learn. That's been a challenge, and so sometimes I think we'll also say you don't have to assess anything below grade level when you get to that moment where you want kids to put everything together because you're doing all of those prerequisites and all of the other pieces along the way. So then you can create an assessment that's not so long because you're not having to see prerequisites alongside of the on-grade level pieces. And if you have a student doing something on grade level, whether it's a performance task or a multi-step problem or an essay. If they mess it up, you can see which prerequisite they don't understand. So you don't need to necessarily in most cases. There might be a few that you know. Of course that are exceptions, but so that helps, like save. And then the other thing or save time and save kids energy so that they're actually assessing at that piece, and I would say that that's also true for when we want to use something formatively. 

25:52
Sometimes people only assess the small pieces and so then kids will do really well, or the simple pieces or the things, the learning that we can get quick data back from. So kids will do well on the formative, but they get to the end of unit or the time when it's intended summative and they don't do as well. And so then often there's not a match there between you know kids aren't practicing the right skill to get to the end. So we kind of, I think those two challenges that's where the assessment plan has been really helpful and it's nothing new like people have done backwards design before. So this is not like something new. I'm not even suggesting that. However, I think sometimes it's become so complicated that it's hard to like just what's the simple way and a deep way. Not simple, not necessarily just, you know, surface level. It's simple and deep where you take the standards or the learning goals or descriptions of learning that you want kids to do and you match up items or you match up tasks and just that simple process. Because then if you're using another resource and you're or you're using something has been designed for you, you can match it up right away and say, oh, this doesn't do it. 

27:00
I recall a couple of weeks ago I was with a chemistry team and there was 50 questions and it was most of it like there's matching and all of this kind of matching terms and and it kind of built to a couple of the problems to solve. And they had listed the standards and they all were about describing. And we and so I'm like, okay, let's look at the item, so the first five are all matching items, and they're like, okay, that one goes to describe, and I'm like, but are kids actually describing? And he's like, oh, I get what you're saying. So there was just one and they completely changed the assessment and they've been giving this assessment for quite some time, and so it was just a very brief conversation that made that change, coupled with, I will say and I'm sure that this has been part of many of your conversations as well is just the role of AI, of your conversations as well, as just the role of AI. 

27:52
And so when we were able to say, to help lift some of the cognitive load of thinking, okay, if not matching what I've been doing for all these years, what's another opportunity, what's another way? And so using AI as a shoulder, partner or something, or you know ideas, we put it in and they came up with some beautiful scenarios and we had to tweak, of course, and you had to make sure that it aligned to that piece. But they walked up feeling pretty like, okay, I think this might be possible. And I wasn't sure because, if and now, that's a one situation. But that whole notion of designing, both at the cognitive level and then design, and then being able to shift from how we've always assessed to where we want to, that kind of piece has been good. 

28:35
And then when you put, when you are by learning goal and by standard, and you know exactly which items are lined up or what the criteria is for the task, you can more focus your feedback and you're not having to it's like, oh, I'm not going to score. 

28:51
I'm not going to comment on every little thing that annoys me. I'm going to like I shouldn't say that, but you know, you look at it and you're like, oh, or the opposite, which I should take a strength-based view of, that is, I want to make sure they know that they should do this instead of that. But that is so. So when I ask kids about feedback, that's one of the things they say is that I get so much feedback I don't know where to start. Or the teacher writes all over my work and I don't know how they got from my wrong answer or my not so quality answer to where they were. So, without seeing the process, so yeah, so I think and here I go again like assessment design, that assessment plan alleviates, helps, can help a little bit, and then, and then it feeds into all the other parts of assessment as a process, feedback that helps kids focus on learning. 

29:40 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
So oh, I love that. Thank you so much for going there, cause I think that really brought it home for people, too is like this is why we're doing this right, so we can give that feedback. Love the assessment plan approach, because I think that really brought it home for people, too is like this is why we're doing this right, so we can give that feedback. Love the assessment plan approach. I think that's super cool and and it's super practical. So thank you for giving so many tips throughout throughout this episode, and I and I kind of want to start to wrap us up by starting with like a kind of call to action, like a quick action step that people can do. Obviously, this work could be like incredibly transformative. People can be looking, looking at, like you know, assessment policy as a whole and, and all of that. I'm wondering if there's like a first step that you often suggest for people to to, to start with. 

30:16 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Yeah, the the weird and messy thing about assessment is that you know everybody's on a little bit of a different journey, so there might be different first steps and that's the five phases. That's where they're in a cycle, because you can start at different places based on where you're at. But if you're in the beginning of the journey, a lot of times what I'll say is just take one unit or one time frame and decide what do you want kids to learn and really take whatever way you're scoring and share it with students in a way that breaks down the learning, so similar to what I shared in that shift from quantity to quality. So that's a first step. Another first step, if that feels too big, or, and I will say that shift of like, really communicating differently in terms of the assessment and sharing. 

31:02
Having a what I call a scoring scheme is coupled with, at the end of an assessment, asking students what their strengths are and their next steps. So what are their strengths and next steps based on that assessment information. And even young children can do this. I have a video of a student who had written a narrative on a turkey and he has a ladder of all the things to include in his narrative from events to temporal words, to theme, like he has the whole thing and he goes through and he's able to say this is what I have in place. This is my next step and I think that's what we want to do. So those scoring schemes and the self-reflection tools can be simple, but they really are a great first step to moving assessment to be more about the information, which also lays the groundwork for more meaningful and accurate grades. 

31:54
And then, I guess, the only other well, there's a few others, but the one thing I would say too, the other thing is, is this, just this idea of using assessment formatively and really exploring all the different strategies? And there's so many ways. I mean, certainly there's so many people who are focused on that notion of how do we use assessment in ways that provide formative feedback, and so I think that aspect of it and I have a design quality and that design quality of action and purpose really go into. What does that mean in exploring what our current understanding of formative uses of assessment are and then trying a few things. And there's some strategies in the book and, of course, there's strategies all over the place, so most of it is like really short, like digging into the formative practice, because we know that's where so much of the learning takes place for students. 

32:43 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love this encouragement to try something too, because it's sometimes that's what it takes to just unlock our brains from the way we've always done things. It's like let's just try, let's just see what happens, and like maybe our guesses would be proven wrong. Actually, this is really going to work very well for students. 

32:58 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
And then if we don't try to change, it's like not thinking about we're going to change the entire system. We don't have to change the entire system before we try one of those things or practice. Just try a practice and then notice what its impact is on kids learning and their confidence and the teacher workflow. That's what I like. Those are the lenses you're looking at when you try anything for just a little bit. 

33:19 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
I love those lenses. I'm going to make sure I note those. Thank you for that. So the final two questions, just to close. This one's for fun. It can be professional or personal. What is something that you've been learning about lately, ah? 

33:31 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
nice. Um well, I um I well like, totally personal, I love to sail so I am diving into and I've sailed as a little kid but I'm diving into sailing lessons and I'm going full on in my small little lakes in Minnesota and then maybe I'll transfer out there, out into, or maybe I'll transition to bigger places later. 

33:54 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
But I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that. That's incredible. I love it, and then that's awesome. I think we'll link to the book, of course, in the blog post, in the show notes, but I think a lot of listeners and audience folks will just be really eager to connect with you, follow your work and book and beyond, and so I'm curious where can people find you, or you have an online presence, or how could people get in touch with you? 

34:17 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
Absolutely so I am. I don't even know all the different names of all the things, but I'm at Nicole Dimich on all of them. So LinkedIn is probably where I'm most active right now. But of course there's there are other social media Instagram and X and all the things. So I haven't haven't ruled out anything yet, but I'm at. Linkedin is my primary piece. So Nicole Dimich at Nicole Dimich. 

34:44 - Lindsay Lyons (Host)
Awesome, and we'll link to that too in the blog post and everything. Thank you, nicole, this has been absolutely wonderful. I so appreciate this conversation. 

34:51 - Nicole Dimich (Guest)
I am so grateful for you and thank you so much. I'm um. Yeah, it was an honor to be here, thank you.