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In this episode, we speak with Jason Tate, who is from the UK and works in an American International School. In this conversation, he dives into the critical aspects of creating safer and more inclusive educational environments by actively listening to student voices.
Jason brings a unique perspective as an educator and co-founder of The Student Voice, an innovative reporting tool that helps students share their experiences of harm so educators can implement appropriate interventions. This tool works to fulfill the UK’s statutory requirements for safeguarding—ensuring student safety at school, online, and in the community—but its concepts can be widely applied in all educational settings. The Big Dream Jason’s big dream is to cultivate an educational environment where we safeguard students by doing things with them and listening to their voices (instead of telling them what to do and ignoring their perspectives). He believes this can be accomplished by building strong, trusting relationships between educators and students and deeply understanding the lived experiences of each individual. Mindset Shifts Required One key mindset shift for educators is to shift from a traditional top-down approach to one that values and integrates student voices. This involves recognizing that listening is a process aimed at understanding, and interventions should be designed collaboratively with students. Additionally, educators need to see safeguarding students' well-being as an ongoing, cyclical process that requires continuous learning and adaptation. Action Steps To create an educational environment that prioritizes the student voice, Jason recommends the following brave action steps: Step 1: Focus on ways to include the student's voice and commit to the process. This requires authentic buy-in from leadership, teachers, and all educators in the system. Models like Laura Lundy’s pathway to encourage student participation or Hart’s Ladder of Participation can be an excellent starting point for schools to prioritize this. Step 2: Implement practical tools and models in your school and classrooms. For example, Jason shares a discrimination reporting tool used at his school, where students can offer information about their lived experiences at home, school, or in the community. This lets students have a voice and share when they feel comfortable and the information they give helps educators understand patterns and implement interventions. Step 3: Develop and execute interventions collaboratively with students. Harm can often happen away from adult supervision and in the community, and it’s not always realistic or practical to simply increase supervision in community spaces. Often, it’s equipping students as active bystanders to reduce harm amongst their peers, or it could be equipping community members. Interventions need to be collaborative, reviewed often, and targeted specifically where harm happens. Challenges? Educators need to be authentically committed to this work. Just paying lip service or being tokenistic will not work—students see through it straight away and it can damage the culture. So, true buy-in amongst educators and staff members is key to ensuring everyone is committed to safeguarding. Authentic engagement means listening to students, getting their feedback, and continually revising things in response. One Step to Get Started The first step is an obvious one: ask your school—why do we want to do this? What’s the purpose of this? Start by identifying and working with champions within the school who are enthusiastic about integrating student voices. Then, begin with small, manageable initiatives, such as pilot programs with specific grades, to gain early victories and build momentum for broader implementation. Stay Connected You can learn more about Jason’s work to safeguard students on The Student Voice website. To help you implement today’s takeaways, Jason is sharing a page of case studies from The Student Voice with you for free to see how it works in action. And, if you’re looking for more details on the ideas in this blog post, listen to episode 189 of the Time for Teachership podcast. If you’re unable to listen or you prefer to read the full episode, you can find the transcript below. Quotes:
TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02 - Lindsay Lyons Jason Tate. Welcome to the Time for Teachership podcast. 0:00:06 - Jason Tait Great thanks for having me. It's really a real pleasure to see you and to talk about what we're going to go through. Thank you. 0:00:11 - Lindsay Lyons Absolutely. I'm really excited and I think you bring a really interesting perspective. Being for primarily United States-based audience, like an external to the US perspective, is really, I think, going to help a lot of folks listening. So I'm curious to know, before we actually dive into the main conversation here, what is important for listeners to know about you or just keep in mind about the topic in general before we dive in. 0:00:35 - Jason Tait Yeah, so I actually have quite a good connection with America and the States, although I'm from the UK myself. I work at an American international school, so I'm fairly familiar with the American education system and all the differences that means compared to the UK system. But because I'm based in the UK, we have a series of statutory requirements that we have to follow in and around the whole area of what the UK would call safeguarding, which essentially means making sure that schools keep young people and children safe, both in school but also deal with any online issues, and also I was sponsored for helping them to stay safe in the community and also at home. So there's a fairly extensive framework which is statutory. So it's an English education law that schools are required to do this and look after the children under their care, and all that through all their different lived life experiences. 0:01:28 - Lindsay Lyons I love that framing for today's conversation and thank you for defining that for us. I think that'll be really powerful to think about, especially in line with like this next question I usually ask them. Dr Bettina Love talks about freedom dreaming in the following way. She says it's dreams grounded in the critique of injustice, and so when I think about safeguarding and I think about, I think there are clear ties here and I'm curious to know, like, with that in mind, what's that? What's the dream that you hold or or, um, that you kind of aspire that students will experience in this? Yeah, sure. 0:02:02 - Jason Tait I think that's a really, really good connection with the work we do. So, um, specifically with the area safeguarding, my own sort of philosophy and view is is that if you're going to safeguard and look after anybody but in our case with education, it's obviously young people and children that you need to work, not you don't do stuff, you don't do things for them, you don't do things to them, but you do things with them. And if you're going to work with our young people and children and students to safeguard them, you need to listen to their voice. But listening is a process, not an outcome, and the outcome of the listening process is to understand their lived experiences. So schools, quite rightly, have sets of rules and regulations young people and children have to follow. So you've got to be on time to class, do your homework, be respectful, all those things which means a school runs as a decent organization. There's no anarchy, otherwise we'd be able to function as a school. But for children, they have a whole set of lived experiences which may or may not be impacted by those rules. So what is their home life like? Are they popular on social media? Have they been bullied? Have they been harassed? Are they experiencing discrimination and if they are experiencing all of those harms, or a variety of those harms, what are they doing differently to keep safe and to live their own life? And we need to understand that before we can help, support them and intervene in a meaningful way. Because the real danger is that adults will interpret a young person's behavior and get that interpretation wrong and then they get the intervention wrong as well. Instead of being a source of support and help, they can actually become a hindrance and also can add to the harm and certainly not build trust. Because all of this it's central to all of this any effective safeguarding framework. You need to be built on a culture of trust between the very strong, healthy, trustful relationships between the adults responsible for safeguarding the young people and the young people themselves. 0:04:10 - Lindsay Lyons There is so much here that is so good and I think a lot of times are not part of our default thinking as educators, at least not in my default thinking as an educator formerly trained. So I want to highlight a couple of things and I'll ask a mindset shift question in a moment connected to them. But I love that you mentioned the with them like that. I love listening as a process, not an outcome, and I love the idea of if you don't understand and you don't seek to understand you, you're actually probably not helping. You're actually doing the opposite, like that's. That's fascinating to me and I think about a lot of times we say things like student voice but we don't actually mean deep understanding and seeking to understand and work with in community and partnership. And so I'm curious to know is that a big mindset shift? Or how do you kind of like coach educators or folks in the space around that, taking on that mindset? Like where are they coming from? How do they get to this appreciation of? 0:05:12 - Jason Tait like we're doing this with students. So we have a very specific model that we use to help educators with that and we have a very clear guiding principle and one rule. So a guiding principle is that we seek. We will not understand a young person's life unless we understand the social rules that govern that young person's life. So we seek to understand the social rules that govern that person's life. So why say, if you take like online life and social media, why do they behave the way they do online? What are the rules that's governing their lives to help keep them safe online? They might take part in an online bullying because they see someone else doing it and they don't want to be the target of that harm. So they will join in with the harmer. But they're doing that not because they agree with the person carrying out the harm. They're doing that because they don't want to be the target themselves. So if you can understand that, then you can have a more effective intervention. And our rule and this ties in with teaching and learning is that we seek to understand and if you understand something, therefore you're learning. So if you go back to what all schools are about their teaching and learning approaches to teaching and learning. Safeguarding in this way is just like teaching and learning in terms of science, math, english, anything else you do in a school. We're looking to learn all the time about the young people we're looking after and if we learn then we'll understand. So, having that growth mindset, we're tying it back into what makes a good teacher. A good teacher wants to learn right. So hopefully teachers can make that connection with well safeguarding is just the same as me teaching English or math or science, whatever it is, history, whatever it is. I teach and our cyclical model which comes out of all of that is that schools provide brave spaces for young people to share information on their terms. So it's when the young person is ready to share, not when we need them to. It's when they're ready to share and then we seek to understand the information they've shared. Then we work with them to develop the intervention on whatever level. That is. So if, if you have a culture of bullying in grade seven, work with grade seven to overcome that culture of bullying. So it might not be working with one kid and one case of bullying. You might have a culture of harassment or a culture of discrimination. So work with the students who are involved in that Work with them to fix it. And then the final part of the cyclical model is that you go back and check to see if that's worked. So has your intervention been successful? And all the time, in all four stages of the model the cyclical model you're using the voice of the young person, so you're being really authentic about what you're doing. It's not tokenistic at all. It's saying to young people you are part of this community and without your voice and in every aspect of the process of supporting them, oh, that's such a great process and I love that it's cyclical right, Because you're constantly doing it. That's perpetual. It's always in motion. Yep, amazing. It's not linear. There's no start and end, because a school is an organic community. It's always growing and developing. That's why schools are great places to work. They change all the time. It can be the same place, but in a different school year on year because the new set of kids, new teaching, new issues, new new curriculum everything changes all the time, so they're organic and they're constantly growing. That's why your process needs to be constant makes so much sense. 0:08:46 - Lindsay Lyons I I also love how you reference a lot of lundy. I mean in indirectly. 0:08:51 - Jason Tait I feel like here yeah, sure, well, lundy's a big influence on the work we do, for sure. 0:08:55 - Lindsay Lyons Yeah, Do you mind speaking to that just a little bit yeah absolutely For people who might be unfamiliar. 0:09:00 - Jason Tait Yeah. So going back to your early question about how you support teachers actually supporting your community with empowering the voice of the student, laura Lundy's work is I was lucky enough to talk with her and meet with her a few times and read her work obviously and her model is very, very it's very straightforward. It's very straightforward, very easy to understand but gives a clear pathway for institutions to develop a culture of student voice. And her big thing is participation. So it's rather that student voice, it's student participation in how you can involve young people in the community and view a school as a community and more than just a school, because I think all schools would recognize that you are a community of learners and Lundy's model really gives you a really nice framework in which you can do that and guide you in how you can do that and assess that and put that in place. Another good model which you may be familiar with is Hart's Ladder of Participation. So Hart's Ladder is really great. So I don't see the ladder as hierarchical. But where Hart's Ladder is really useful is you can look at the issues you might be facing so young people share information. Where hearts ladder is really useful is you can look at the issues you might be facing. So young people shed information and we often go back to hearts ladder and pick the rung on the ladder that we think will match the issue that we're facing. So that's a really that's a really nice guide to to deal with issues sort of case by case hearts. 0:10:26 - Lindsay Lyons I can give you that guidance, we feel on specific issues and cases I love the of heart's ladder as just kind of something you can pick a rung of, as opposed to a hierarchy. That's really wise. I like that a lot very cool and, and so I think you've done a lot of things with the student voice, with different different things in terms of what does it look like when we put some of the big ideas that you've talked about into practice, like, how do we literally do it? um, can you talk through a little bit about what schools can do to make this a possibility in their their communities so, um, let me give you a case study we're working on right now at my school. 0:11:05 - Jason Tait So we give our, so our tool. We provide the young people and children in our school with a map of their school, a map of the community, a generic map of a home which matches the socioeconomic background of the young people, and a discrimination reporting tool so they can share information on any of their lived experiences school, in the community in which they live, at home and in relation to any forms of discrimination, and so we've been running that since 2018 as a tool that the kids can use. Over the last couple of years, we've really picked up on a pattern of, because when you get the context of where harm happens, you can understand patterns right, so you'll deal with an individual case, but when you get a series of cases which have a similar context, then you have the ability to change the context to prevent future harm, and that's the really exciting stuff for us. So the case study we're working through right now is that we we've seen a pattern of um, we call it child-on-child relationship harm, so issues of bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination. The common theme is it takes place away from adult supervision, it takes place amongst groups of students and it can take place online and in person and it's very rarely one-on-one, it's very often in group situations. So what we've started to introduce is an active bystander program for our whole community. So to disrupt the context because adults aren't there, we need to empower young people to deal with it there and then. But they need the skill set to do it safely and the confidence to do it safely. But research has also shown that if you can have a successful active bystander program, it can really reduce instances of harassment, discrimination and bullying. So we spent the second half of the last school year and we'll really strengthen it going into the first semester of the coming school year and training our community to be active bystanders and so they will have a skill set to disrupt the context of child and child relationship harm, as it happens. And then we'll track the data to see. We'll go back and say go back to our young people, say, has this approach worked? Have we managed to support you in managing those relationship harm issues that you've you've shared with us, that you experience? In other words, have we changed the context to prevent future harm? So if we go back to that model, we've got the information through the brave space. We think we understand the issue. We've developed our intervention and provided training, and now we're halfway between the training piece and checking if we've been successful. 0:13:56 - Lindsay Lyons Wow, that is so good. And I'm thinking about the default. My default response just the way that I have been experiencing schools and thinking about how people usually intervene in something like that was oh, we just add adults so that students are never alone. Right, we just add adult supervision. That's not it. We have to empower the students and support the students to be able to do it themselves. That's so good. 0:14:20 - Jason Tait But I think in this particular case that because the type of harm happens away from adult supervision, that solution seemed the right one for us. In different contexts, with different issues, adults may be part of the solution. So it's so. We work one of the schools that I work with. They have a mcdonald's restaurant on the corner of the street opposite the school. So they provide and there's harm happening in that restaurant, with the kids pouring out of school, going into the restaurant. So they provided training to the mcdonald's staff and safeguarding, so they they then report back to the school if any harms happen. So it's, it's working out, understanding where the context of where the harm happens, then develop your intervention from there. So, and because you have, then, because you then have community safeguarding, your community gets involved and that strengthens your culture because you're saying it's not just the teachers, it's our community. You know it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a town to change a generation that is brilliant, okay, I. 0:15:30 - Lindsay Lyons I love this idea of training community members and truly partnering. We talk a lot about being connected to community and stuff that's legitimately connected to the community. You are on the same page there. I love that, and I'm wondering about folks who are doing this work or who maybe are at an earlier stage of that cycle maybe they're, um, just starting to get information and have never been through that cycle of partnering with students to determine the action step like are there challenges to this work that you've seen? 0:16:04 - Jason Tait oh, yeah, 100, yeah, yeah, you have to be um, you have to want to do authentically so. So if you pay lip service or tokenistic, that will not work and kids will see through you straight away and that can actually damage your culture. So you have to be genuine about it and be prepared to listen, and maybe listen to things you don't want to hear, because kids will tell you if you. But then also you have to be prepared to act on what they've said, because it's almost, it's almost better not to ask if you're not, if you don't act on what they've said, because you've asked the question, you've done nothing. That's almost. That's. That's really negative, that's that's. That's the road you shouldn't go down. I'd suggest um, yeah, so you need to be authentic about it, um, and be prepared to listen and be prepared to be surprised, right? So there's things the kids will tell you. We learned. So we always ask kids what's going well as well. That's really important, and so we were shocked by what they thought was going well and there's good stuff. But we never. We just took it for granted, but it meant so much to them. So those little things, you can make a really big difference in a school community's life by just doing the little things, understanding them and do more of them. 0:17:21 - Lindsay Lyons So, asking the good, stuff as well as what's not going so well, is really important as well. I'm curious just to infuse listeners with a bit of joy. What are some of the things that people? 0:17:29 - Jason Tait said. One of the things we learned was um, this is crazy. So our we have a really lovely art department at our school and at recess and at lunch times they stay open and we'll have some light supervision. They'll be there but in the background and they do some art material. That's, the kids can go to hang out and do a bit of art if the weather's not nice outside, and stuff like that. The kids loved that and we thought that was okay, so okay. But they just like that was the best thing in their day where they could do art together, hang out, use a teacher there, but they could just do art, chat, talk and they just loved that. We never knew that, we never appreciated that, we never came close to understanding that. I was sure we just said, right, we'll do, we'll do more of that and just a simple thing like that, which doesn't mean much to us but meant the world to those kids yeah, it's, it's just. 0:18:20 - Lindsay Lyons I think that's a. That story is so emblematic of why it is so important to just ask the question of the students, to just listen to what they have to say, because they teach us so much more than what you were mentioning earlier the false interpretation yeah, for sure that kids are my best teacher. 0:18:38 - Jason Tait No doubt about that absolutely, absolutely okay. 0:18:41 - Lindsay Lyons So now I'm envisioning someone listening who is really excited about this idea but might not be certain about how to get started. Or, you know, maybe seeing that you know there's there's um, like a statutory element to being in the UK and there's like this kind of community support or expectation of this, whereas it might not exist as much in the US like what is kind of the very first thing you would encourage someone to do to get started and get the ball rolling here, or more than one thing if you think yeah sure. 0:19:11 - Jason Tait So I think the first it sounds like a really obvious question. But just work with your school and your school leaders and say why do we want to do this? Yeah, what's the purpose of this? And link it back to your mission and your school values so it becomes part of your mission, becomes part of your strategy, becomes part of your school. If you can identify the clear and everyone thinks yeah, student voice, you should listen to kids, that's obvious. Well, sit down and unpack what that actually means and how that can benefit your community. So if you recognize that you have relationship issues, if you have issues of bullying substance, misuse all the stuff that kids experience, like the risks that we know they go through. If you want to understand that, then student voice is a very good vehicle which gives you that level of understanding. And once you make that almost a philosophical, strategic commitment, then the rest can take care of itself. You can look at my tool, the student voice tool. You can look at Lundy's model for participation, hart's ladder. You can work out what it is that you do. A lot of schools do surveys and there's a place for surveys, but they're point in time right and kids' lives move on very quickly and the influence of their lives move on very quickly. So what's going to be your means for young people to be able to use their voice and what's the vehicles in which they can use their voice in your setting, and how can you develop that and work with the young people to develop it as well? Because if you can work with them to develop your student voice, they will see that you are serious about it and they will feel you're authentic about it. 0:21:04 - Lindsay Lyons So once you've got your systems and processes set up and your approach set up, they will buy into it and they will work with you on it don't want to use the term buy-in, but like buy-in from a teacher level, right, like the commitment or the authentic you were saying authentic authenticity, right, like of of the teachers. And so I'm wondering about a leader who has a staff that's kind of mixed. There are like some people are really excited, want to authentically partner with students, and some folks are like I am not really ready to hear the hard things, like I'm ready to listen but only to maybe some things and I'm not really prepared to hear the full truth that students are speaking or maybe to follow up on that. How would you advise a leader to kind of negotiate that dynamic in their staff? 0:22:03 - Jason Tait Yeah, I think that's a fairly common reaction to a lot of initiatives in schools and and you start with your champions. So start with the people who back that and start with the people who want to buy in with you. And maybe start with your juniors and seniors. Start with a couple of grades, work with them, get your early victories right. So when, when you have an issue, come in, deal with it really well. And feedback. So with all the student voice stuff that comes into our school an advisory, every thursday, I will feed back to the advisors and advisees and say this is what we're looking at this week, this is what's come in, this is what we're doing. Have a discussion about that, talk about it. So you're just really transparent, get the elephant out the room as far as possible without breaching confidentiality. But I'll be straight. So if we have an issue of a culture of, say, misogyny or sexual harassment, we'll say in these grades this is what's coming through, guys, what do we think we need to do about that? So it's all out in the open. You discuss it, you talk about it and then you start to develop as a community so those teachers that may not be buying into it can start to see right, okay, this is what's happening in the place where I work. Do I want to work at a place that has that? No, maybe I don't. How can? How can we fix that? How can we do something about that? So you bring people slowly along, but start with your champions, start all the people that buy into it, and then give yourself the gift of time and then plan and develop your action plan, your strategic plan and and review that constantly and look for your indicators of success and your timelines and just keep reviewing that as you go along. 0:23:55 - Lindsay Lyons I love that your tool and the idea of constantly having that information, that input from students, of here's what's going on, here's my lived experience, gives you the opportunity to share the information regularly. To say I think it was Mesereau who says, like you need a disorienting dilemma when we're trying to lead change. Right, we have this. Whoa. I thought I was living in this community and working in this community everything was peaceful, right. And then I just remember, um, in one of my classes I used to teach feminism to high school students and one of the boys was like, yeah, but like, sexism doesn't really happen here. And then all of the girls were like here. Let me tell you about these yeah, that's right. 0:24:25 - Jason Tait Yeah, that's true. But also you like, we're talking about the harmless kids experience. They will tell you I get too much homework for my ap classes. I don't like pizza on a friday, you know you, you get everything. So we talk about everything, right and soon. We've had to work hard, but we've got kids moving from complaining to advocacy and starting to appreciate the difference, because we will kick back and say stop complaining. It's a privileged environment. The pizza is great on a Thursday, so you get them to. But it's also a really good social media tool as well. So we will get kids who will say things that they shouldn't say. Well, not that they shouldn't say. They express themselves inappropriately, right, so you can hold them to account safely for that. It's a safe form of social media as well. So they'll learn how to use their voice. So when they go onto platforms and go into the real world, hopefully they don't get in trouble with their employer, because they've had the support from us on how to use their voice correctly. 0:25:26 - Lindsay Lyons So there's lots of educational benefits, as well as all the safety pieces we've talked about as well I love that so much when we think about student voice, as often people you know describe a student voice or leadership building in youth as like this future benefit. But it's like both right it's the future benefit and it's like because you're doing it now, you're enabling students to have that voice and participation in the moment they're in school and it benefits the later because they did it authentically when they were there. 0:25:53 - Jason Tait Yeah, that's a big part of our vision with this work is that if you can teach kids to use their voice appropriately and see the action is taken when they do, then hopefully they can take that learning into the society they live in and the community they live in so they can be a positive, contributing member of the community they go on to live. So the real, really important we feel obviously we're buyers, but really important educational value in the work we're doing as well. 0:26:21 - Lindsay Lyons That's amazing and, oh my gosh, there's been so much. I think listeners are going to get a ton out of this episode. As we move to close, I I ask one question just for fun. This can be related to our conversation and your work, or it could be something totally random, but because everyone that listens and tunes in really is a lifelong learner, I'm curious to know what's something that you have been personally learning about lately wow, like I say, I love to learn. 0:26:46 - Jason Tait There's so much that's going on right now. So we've just gone through a general election in the UK, so what I've been really learning about is our political system and different, what democracy means, what that looks like, again, how people can use their voice. Uh, is democracy simple? Is it straightforward? How that can be abused and does the real picture come back out, how to get clear information, clear understanding and how people may abuse or use that system. And is democracy a resilient enough process to provide the freedoms that we all enjoy? So that's what I'm really been thinking and reading about and reflecting on right now um, right there with you. 0:27:29 - Lindsay Lyons The united states is a kind of similar similar position right now interesting times oh yeah, and what powerful times to learn alongside students. I always think about students, like you said students teach us so much. Students can are going to teach us how to like get through this, because the same old way is not working. So it's like give us something new. Let's go. 0:27:53 - Jason Tait Yeah, that's right. I'm on board with you with that one for sure. 0:27:57 - Lindsay Lyons And the last question I have for you is really, I think people are going to be very interested in the tool you have. It is. I have not heard of anything like this and I work with different survey organizations and people who do the point in time but not the ongoing system. So how do folks connect with you? Learn more about the student voice, all of those things? Yeah, sure. 0:28:16 - Jason Tait So just jump onto our website, the studentvoicecouk. You see all of our stuff there and you can sign up for demos. We've got lots of our case study page. We have lots of live videos about things, how our schools have used it. We've got tons of blogs about the work that we do. Um, we're very accessible. We do lots of video, lots of online work, with people around the world talking about it. So go to our website, check us out, have a look and then get in touch through the website. We'll happily talk to you and share all that information we can transparent about what we do excellent. 0:28:49 - Lindsay Lyons I will link to the page and also the case study page so I think people will get a really a nice vibe of what you do and what is possible for their communities by looking at that yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely, that'd be great jason, thank you so much for this conversation today. 0:29:02 - Jason Tait It was such a pleasure yeah, lindsey, it's been great talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for the opportunity. It's been really kind of you, thank you.
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AuthorLindsay Lyons (she/her) is an educational justice coach who works with teachers and school leaders to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice, design curricula grounded in student voice, and build capacity for shared leadership. Lindsay taught in NYC public schools, holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the educational blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. Archives
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